Wall of Distrust in Nigeria Bird Flu Fight
The peasant farm hands were deeply suspicious as they watched the police marksmen trying to control bird flu kill 168 ostriches the farm had reared over eight years. Days later, when the 160 workers were invited for tests to see if they, too, were infected, nearly everyone fled.
"Most of them feared they would end up like the ostriches, to be shot dead for having the virus," said one of the more enlightened of the Sambawa Farms workers, Ibrahim Hassan, who turned up promptly for medical checks.
"Nearly everyone fled." This is pretty much a worst-case scenario: people running away, potentially exposing others to the virus. Now, human H5N1 cases haven't been reported yet in that country, but if people are avoiding health authorities out of fear of death, who knows what's really out there?
"You can never trust the people in government," said one who gave his name as Nasiru as he began a 4-mile walk back to his village. "I won't come back here another day."
Now, people can blame this on the subjects being poor Nigerian farmers, but I have no doubt that, if it comes to the US, many people will have the same reaction as Nasiru. Just look at the DEATH THREATS toward CDC scientists launched IN CAPITAL LETTERS in the comments to this RFK Jr. post.
Gah. Depressing.
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Oh God, not RFK Jr. That man is so full of crap.
In regards to the farmers, it is to some degree understandable, when you live in a totalitarian regime, which Nigeria was until fairly recently. However, how can anyone belive that there is a world-wide conspiracy to keep kids autistic?
A few thoughts:
1. Death threats in the comments to CDC officials is not good.
2. But many of you are tone-deaf on the autism problem. True, it may not be caused by thimerosol, but ridiculing parents of autistic kids, who are bewildered and burdened by this tragedy, is not a good idea. What is causing the problem? What investigative steps have been taken to determine the cause?
3. I'm glad Nigerian farmers have avoided bogus H5N1 tests. I would too!
Good rule of thumb re viral disease. Wait until you have symptoms, before worrying. If you don't have symptoms, don't worry.
Hank Barnes
Hank, I agree it's unfortunate the parents are caught in the middle of this. They've been sold a lot of bull and it's understandable that they're often confused about what the research actually says. I'd advise checking out Respectful Insolence for a number of detailed posts on the autism/thimerosal issue.
As far as steps to determine the cause, there's a lot of research into autism. It's largely resulted in the realization that symptoms of autism appear very early in development, and that there's a large genetic component. Additionally, there was supposed to be a study of 100,000 children from birth (actually, in utero) to age 21 looking at all sorts of risks for autism and other diseases, but the Bush administration just killed it with their new budget. That's really what we need--detailed surveillance of not only vaccines but other exposures as well.
*sigh* Do you know anything about influenza tests, Hank? We need these to see if H5N1 is present and/or has spread in the human population, not only there but in the rest of the world.
It's sadly ironic that you ask in one sentence "what are scientists doing" and suggest we should be doing more, and in another, show that you're proud of people who are unwilling to provide just the assistance scientists need to carry out these studies! Unbelievable.
It's for surveillance, Hank, not treatment.
Hank, I don't particpate much in the AIDS/HIV argument, other than on a general level, since I don't know too much about the current debate that goes on outside scientific circles.
However, I do have some knowledge of the thimerosal/autism debate, and have even debunked one of Safemind's arguments against the Danish studies of ushc a link. One thing we have never done, is to ridicule the parents - many people who are on the same side as me, Orac and Tara are also parents with autisitc children, and several have belived in a autism/thimerosal link themselves. I also have a deep respect for some of the people on the oposite side of the debate - for example, Dwight Meredith does a great work explaining his position, and is always willing to listen to arguments. There are several blogs that are on the oposite side of the debate compared to me, and I am quite welcome there - hardly something that would be the case if I ridiculed those people.
Investion wise, what is going on, is a mulititude of venues - potential links are examined (like the one we are debating, and the MHR vaccination/autism link). None of these have been verified. As a matter of fact, they have all been pretty much disproven (as much as that is possible). Other research goes on in different areas, and it seems there is a genetic explanaition - the exact explanaition is not know yet, but these things are hard to determinate.
Unfortunately, people like RFK, Jr. talks about conspiracies, and takes resources away from the research that could be done on the promising paths, and puts it back into research of paths than has been conclusively show to be dead ends.
And don't get me started on all the people who crook the statistics to push their own cures. Cures that are not only effectless in curing autism, but which actually endangers the children with autism.
Hank Barnes opines:
We're not tone-deaf, nor do we "ridicule" the parents of autistic children. However, many of us have nothing but contempt for people who mislead parents (who have enough to worry about and deal with to begin with, by coming up with vast conspiracy theories blaming some cabal of the government and pharmaceutical companies for an autism "epidemic" that isn't). These parents are usually not stupid and not worthy of ridicule, but they are not trained doctors or scientists, either.
No, it's the Geiers and their media lapdogs, like RFK Jr. or David Kirby, who promote this conspiracy theory that is not supported by science or epidemiology to parents of autistic children. The Geiers in particular are culpable here, because both of them make a large chunk of their livings providing "expert testimony" and legal support to parents suing the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Funny that the mercury conspiracy-mongers never seem to take them to task for having such a conflict of interest. Parents, desperate to do something--anything--to help their child, then all too often waste their money and endanger their children with quack treatments like chelation therapy and, as I wrote about last week, even chemical castration.
I wonder if RFK Jr. is even aware of how much farther the quacks have become willing to go since he first wrote about this issue last June.
The research out there right now overwhelmingly implicates primarily genetic causes for autism, not mercury poisoning. In fact, I've been meaning to write about that too, because some of the genetic causes implicated involve one of my favorite classes of genes, homeobox genes. It's in the queue. Sooner or later I'll get around to it.
Hey, 2 outta 3 ain't bad!!
It's for surveillance, Hank, not treatment
Tara, it's starts out as surveillance, and then morphs into bad tests and bad treatment. You know the drill.
The difference between autism and H5N1 is simple: The former is a clinical problem of unknown cause, which is a nightmare for parents. Let's work on finding the cause. If vaccines can be made without thimerasol, then dump it, and see if the rates of autism go down. I doubt thimerasol is neccessary to make a good vaccine.
As for H5NI, that's just bovine scatology. A scientific goose-chase (no pun intended). Where is PETA to save all these Nigerian ostrichs when you really need them:)
Hank
Thimerosal is a preventive. It enables vaccinations to be cheaper, especially in 3rd world countries. However, I agree, if there is no need for it, get rid of it. In the US it would seem unnecessary.
preventive? preservative!
Already done, Hank.
As far as thimerosal in vaccines, is it necessary? No. What it does is acts as a preservative, preventing bacterial contamination of multi-dose vaccines. It's safe and effective, and has been used for almost a century. I'd rather have that than some untested preservative, frankly.
Re: H5N1--I notice that yet again, you dismiss my points without addressing them. Whatever. I hope H5N1 remains in birds, but if it mutates to a H2H transmissible form, I hope you're on the front lines of those eating their words.
Orac & KW,
Well, if you claim that you don't ridicule parents of autistic children --who are simply trying to cope and understand and deal with this tragedy -- then I will accept your wordm apologize,and move on.
IMO, defending thimeresol has unfortunately taken precedent over the primary objective, ie, finding the cause of autism. (and, of course, curing it).
It seems to me, unless thimersol is absolutely necessary to make a vaccine, you simply dump it. (which I think has been done). Or simply offer parents vaccines with or without, and let them choose. Not very complicated, minor problem solved.
Orac, if there's a genetic cause for autism, great, let's examine it!
HBarnes
I should also note that indeed, most US vaccines are thimerosal-free. Influenza vaccine is one exception, but the patient can indeed request a thimerosal-free form.
Tara says:
I heard on the news this morning that a case of H5N1 was found in a domestic cat in Germany. As I understand it, it's not unknown for tigers and other Asian feline species to get it, but this is the first report of the disease in a domestic cat in Europe.
Dave--
Yep, indeed. I probably should have put "remains largely in birds," as I've written on here and my old blog about the virus in several cat species as well as dogs and swine.
1. How do we know it's not already in US cats, peacefully residing like many harmless passenger viruses?
2. Don't US cats get the flu?
3. Don't US cats get viruses?
4. If we take a blood sample of 20 healthy cats in the US, what will we find under electronmicroscope?
5. Did the infected European cat eat the infected Nigerian ostrich?:)
This is a classic application of the old saw -- "if you go thru life as a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail."
Hank Barnes
p.s. For late lunch, I am going to Colonel Sanders to eat a lotta chicken
Hank opines
Not quite, Hank. Money-grubbing "researchers" like the Geiers' and their sycophants (like RFK Jr. and David Kirby) launching attacks on thimerosal that are not based in science or epidemiology have diverted money, research time, and researchers' attention to rebutting the pseudoscience used to justify the "mercury-autism" link and away from more productive avenues of research. If those pseudoscientists and hucksters (and, make no mistake about it, the Geiers make most of their income from legal actions based on alleged vaccine injuries) didn't keep flogging this issue and distorting the evidence (and RFK Jr. is a particularly egregious offender), there would be no need to waste time "defending" thimerosal.
As has been pointed out, thimerosal has been removed from all vaccines but the flu vaccine anyway. That will increase the cost of vaccines, because multiuse vials need some sort of preservative, but, as I've said before, we're a rich nation and can afford it. My only fear is that getting rid of multiuse vials will make vaccination in Third World countries more costly, and there isn't a lot of money there for desperately needed vaccination programs in the first place.
Orac,
Well, nothing you write is unreasonable. I'm more interested though in finding the cause of autism (to treat it), then debunking folks who have incorrect opinions on stuff.
Perhaps, you view this as another low-level "battle" between an unending scientific war (Darwinists, Western-Medicine, Pharmaceutical v. IDists, Alties and AIDS-Deniers) but I don't. There are elements of each view that I find genuinely compelling.
Barnes
Substitute "in" for "between"
Tara,
Did ya see this about chemotherapy being proposed to treat avian-flu virus?
"It's for surveillance, Hank, not treatment."
Hank Barnes
The CDC may need the help of anthropologists who understand the local culture and can establish contact with trusted clan leaders. Without knowing the area you can't assume its the same for Nasiru and RFK. Perhaps Nasiru has had experiences which would explain his wariness.
Here it is Thursday and here you are going on about Nigeria (sort of). But didn't you promise to write a post on non-HIV AIDS to clear up all of Anon II's simple questions?
Or maybe you can't find any time to reply to Anon II because that would actually take some effort and all yours is apparently given over to legal threats to get "bialy/s" to cease publishing "bllog books" that make you look like the charlatan you are?
Get your "bllog books" now folks. The LEGAL FIRM representing THIS BLOG has given me one week to clear the stuff before THEY TAKE ACTION.
Isn't free speech a grand thing?
Feared of a little satire... my my my. I wonder how it will all play out in the various courts.
Hank,
No, typically, they don't. As I've mentioned several times, that's one reason why this is a strange virus.
And regarding the chemotherapy study, I don't know why that got attention. It's clearly stated it's an untested hypothesis, and if they don't want to enroll in a clinical study, they'd certainly have support from me. That's not what I was discussing above at all.
Harvey, weren't you leaving? I've written to both Anon II and Karen Lambert re: questions and I'll have a post up tomorrow. This isn't a single-issue AIDS blog, and I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to make it so.
Yeah, I was but then you and your lawyers dragged me back.
This is now about free speech Ms. Smith.
Have fun defending your outrageous attempt at censorship.
BTW. There will very shortly (within mins after this posts) be a *new* version of The Cancer Cult that is much more forceful and compressed, and so far above any possible infringement on "fair use" that even your Ms. Dow will not be able to write me about it.
http://bialystocker.net/files/cancercult.pdf
Harvey, please note that I've never censored a word of yours on this blog.
Mr. Bialy says:
What?!
The lawyers dragged you back to spam us with more links??
What did we do?
Just passing by. I'm normally not a blog crasher, but having just read the article by Celia Farber in Harper's and hearing that there were questions related to quotes, copyright and free speech running rampant, and knowing that scientists are no different than anyone else when it comes to issues of status, power and wealth, I decided to take a look and see what the molehill was all about.
As any good plagiarist will tell you, www.plagiarist.com, it's all about fair use. If you only use a part, if you do not ask for money, if it severs some educational or artistic or social value (see Larry Flynt).
From the Stanford Library site:
"The fair use statute requires the courts to consider the following questions in deciding this issue:
* Is it a competitive use? (In other words, if the use potentially affects the sales of the copied material, it's usually not fair.)
* How much material was taken compared to the entire work of which the material was a part? (The more someone takes, the less likely it is that the use is fair.)
* How was the material used? Is it a transformative use? (If the material was used to help create something new it is more likely to be considered a fair use that if it is merely copied verbatim into another work. Criticism, comment, news reporting, research, scholarship and non-profit educational uses are most likely to be judged fair uses. Uses motivated primarily by a desire for a commercial gain are less likely to be fair use).
As a general rule, if you are using a small portion of somebody else's work in a non-competitive way and the purpose for your use is to benefit the public, you're on pretty safe ground. On the other hand, if you take large portions of someone else's expression for your own purely commercial reasons, the rule usually won't apply."
But you people know all of this already.