What do the DI fellows think of the ADL?

I know Im not the only one who has eagerly anticipated the Discovery Institutes response to the ADL officially denouncing EXPELLED.

Well John Kwok is not one to sit by and wait patiently for a press release. He emailed dear David Klinghoffer, 'Jew', DI fellow, to ask about his position on EXPELLED:

Dear David,
The Anti-Defamation League issued a terse press release today condemning the equation of 'Darwinism' with Nazism in 'Expelled'. How can you call yourself a religious Jew and still believe in such Fundamentalist Protestant Christian nonsense like Intelligent Design or belong to a Fundamentalist Protestant Christian organization like the Discovery Institute?

Here's the press release:


Daivds response:

Congratulations, John, whoever you are, this is your most hilarious email yet. The idea that I would feel chastised by a press release from the ADL! That is rich. You either don't know anything about me, or about the ADL, or both.

Shorter DI fellow: LOL! We dont care what Jews think about the Holocaust, stupid!!


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I knew there was a reason why I like bioethicist Art Caplan. Leave it to him not to be afraid not only to wander a bit afield of medicine than usual but also to call it as he sees it, mainly his argument for why Expelled! and its claim that "Darwinism" led directly to the Holocaust is not only…

Shorter David Klinghoffer: "I think it's funny that anyone thinks I give a damn about the opinions of Jews who don't hate themselves and/or kiss as much Christianist ass as I do."

I'm surprised Klinghoffer didn't dismiss it outright as attempted suppression by Big Judaism!

Alternate Shorter DI fellow: Question? What question?

By Thomas S. Howard (not verified) on 30 Apr 2008 #permalink

Obviously Mr. Klinghoffer is now an evangelical Christian, just as Mr. Stein has become. I'm sure he feels quite offended to have been identified as a Jew. I shall make certain to wish him a Happy Ascension Day tomorrow.

By freelunch (not verified) on 30 Apr 2008 #permalink

freelunch: Nah.. I think he's just verklempt, cuz the Feast Of The Immaculate Conception isn't until Dec 8.

You should see Johnathan Sarfati's opinion of the ADL!


Just scroll down to Jonathan Sarfati, 21.6.07 / 9pm comment.

I'll just let you all read what he says. Good luck commenting though. That site is almost as bad as Uncommon Descent is for censorship.

By the way, Sarfati, a YEC is now posting on UD, a place where they deny that ID is creationism. Sarfati even makes a link to his YEC group there.

See http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelled/australian-media-on-expelled/ Sarfati's comment is number five, I believe.

In that UD article, Dembski calls on his supporters to email the reporter who dared to link ID to creationism, so I figured I'd do a pre-emptive letter to thank him for his accuracy and to give him some ammo against the UD people.

Whether my letter was any good or not, who knows...


To: John Harlow

I'm writing in regards to your insightful article "Ferris Bueller's way off as creationist damns Dawkins" on April 30, 2008. The ID crowd keeps going on and on about how "intelligent design" is not "creationism".

Unfortunately for them, they got caught out in the Dover trial.
For more information, check out

That article talks about how Barbara Forrest caught this on the sixth day of the Trial:

Creation Biology (1983), p. 3-34: "Evolutionists think the former is correct; creationists because of all the evidence discussed in this book, conclude the latter is correct."

Biology and Creation (1986), p. 3-33: "Evolutionists think the former is correct, creationists accept the latter view."

Biology and Origins (1987), p. 3-38: "Evolutionists think the former is correct, creationists accept the latter view."

Of Pandas and People (1987, creationist version), p. 3-40: "Evolutionists think the former is correct, creationists accept the latter view."

Of Pandas and People (1987, "intelligent design" version), p. 3-41: "Evolutionists think the former is correct, cdesign proponentsists accept the latter view."

It's nice to see how some people aren't falling for their ploy. Sure, some of the basic tenets are different; they don't talk about the age of the earth much or the globabl flood, but a cursory scan of the literature shows that "intelligent design" is just a re-packaged form of creationism to try to get past previous court rulings in the U.S. that said that YE creationism was "unconstitutional".

If you check out the court transcripts for the Dover trial, they bring up the "Wedge Document" where the Discovery Institute says outright that it's goal is to replace the "materialist" culture with one that has christian theism as its base.

Hopefully some of this information will be useful when the ID people come calling. It seems they've taken exception to your review:


Dembski's calling on his people to "talk some sense" into you.

Ironically enough, even though Dembski insists that ID is not creationism, the fifth comment there is by a well known young-earth creationist, Jonathan Sarfati of Creation Ministries International, who posts a link to their site. They're sponsoring a "design friendly" event, but if you look around on their site, it's obvious that it's a young-earth, global flood preaching group.

Go figure.

PS: If you really want some fun, go to Sarfati's Creation Ministries International home page and check out the side for their affiliated sites. One of them is this:

I was thinking he was about to say something about a conspiracy within the ADL. You know -- a conspiracy of the Jewish variety.

"If we're made in Gods image, God's made of gag, pol, and env."

Please explain whether this is a profound point or just college level gibberish.

Fleming: Why not just go search on gag,pol, and env yourself, then make another pass at parsing it?

By Thomas S. Howard (not verified) on 30 Apr 2008 #permalink

I guess this is proof that even the blind hen can find the occasional grain. Or whatever idiom is appropriate in English.

Thomas S. Howard,

I know what gag, pol and env are, Dipshit. I'm asking our host what these retroviral genes have to do with God per her little mantra. Feel free to butt out.

In the end, though, the ADL doesn't represent all Jews. (Even though it claims to.) While their statement means that certainly a fairly mainstream segment of the jewish population is against Expelled, and also shows a bit of the faultlines that are developing along the traditionally conservative side of things, Klinghoffer isn't that crazy to feel unconcerned.

Thomas S. Howard,

I know what gag, pol and env are, Dipshit. I'm asking our host what these retroviral genes have to do with God per her little mantra. Feel free to butt out.

Of what, your private conversation on a blog? Think about what ERV stands for. Then call me some more names if you want.
Please to a have a nice day.

By Thomas S. Howard (not verified) on 30 Apr 2008 #permalink

Think the Discovery Institute has a problem with the Anti-Defemation League?

Check out this this Culture Watch article.

Scroll down to:
Jonathan Sarfati
21.6.07 / 9pm

Check out what Sarfati has to say here. Note that this guy is a convert from Judaism.

What would Foxman know? He is no historian, unlike Weikart who specializes in modern European history, but a secular misochristic Jew who is more interest in pushing liberal causes than Judaism. Indeed, he is an embarrassment to many of his fellow Jews; see Rabbi Daniel Lapin's defence of James Kennedy and his film, Which Jews does the ADL really represent?. The group Jews Against Anti-Christian Defamation has also attacked Foxman and the ADL for other intemperant anti-Christian bigotry, calling the ADL "another liberal front group".

Links in original. Religious right groups in general do not like the ADL at all. To them, the only good Jew is one that sells out to them like Stein or Don Feder. Scroll down to "War on Christians" conference contains much about Jews" on this link.

Though Sarfati's the only one bigoted enough to call Foxman a "secular misochristic Jew". Misochristic means "christ-hating", like misogynistic means women-hating. He didn't call him a "christ-doubting" Jew, but a "christ-hating" Jew. Look up "christ hating" "Jew" in Google, and see the interesting results you get!

That's just one step away from "christ-killing" accusation isn't it? That's what helped start anti-semitism in the first place.

To swat Fleming: if you believe, per statements in $BRONZE_AGE_MYTH, that human beings are "made in the image of God," then we can infer something about God from the nature of human beings. And since the human genome contains large quantities of old broken retroviruses, which we recognise from the distinctive genes gag, pol and env, we infer, if we're in the mood to make fun of belief in $BRONZE_AGE_DEITY, that God consists largely of retroviral genes.

Shorter version: it's a joke making fun of you which is very funny to people smarter than you.

By Stephen Wells (not verified) on 01 May 2008 #permalink

@Stephen Wells...thank you for clarifying what Abbie's header meant. I have been meaning to ask. As a nurse, gag has a totally different meaning to me, and I couldn't figure out what pol and env were. If it had been POL and ERV I might have figured it out. And when you don't know exactly what you are looking for, Google is not your friend. :(

Please explain whether this is a profound point or just college level gibberish.

Wait, has the ADL commented on Ben Stein repeating the subtitle to this blog?


Oh, then whats the point of your comment?

David Klinghoffer (along with fellow DI nutcase Michael Medved and criminal ex-lobbyist Jack Abramoff) is a follower of Rabbi Daniel Lapin, who believes devotion to American right-wing causes overrides even minimal Jewish self-respect. So, yes, they are full tilt in bed with Christian evangelists, no matter how obviously anti-Semitic or Holocaust revisionistic they sometimes are.

All four that I mentioned are Orthodox, but in Orthodox circles, they aren't taken too seriously (well, their money has usually been acceptable).

Dennis Prager is another well-known Lapin devotee, but since he isn't Orthodox, he isn't even on the Orthodox radar screens to begin with. I have no idea of Ben Stein has any affiliation with Lapin, but Stein quotes him extensively in his Jews run Hollywood book.

By william e emba (not verified) on 01 May 2008 #permalink

Re: gag, pol and env, I've always found it amusing that the intelligunt desiner apparently decided to stick some HERVs in our genome so that the placenta can form properly, according to the creos. And people can have ovarian cancer, schizophrenia, MS and all the other lovely things HERVs appear to be involved in. Whoops. Dear doG, please make sure you regulate those genes better next time. And what's with all the non-functional copies?

What I'd LOOOOOVE to see would be a statement on Expelled's website about the ADL's statement.

You'd think they'd have a response.... right?

I mean, a bunch of individual random statements by bigots from the DI is one thing. Let's get the organization on the record here, as an organization.

FhnuZoag wrote: "In the end, though, the ADL doesn't represent all Jews.(Even though it claims to.)"

What does a statement like that even mean? I've searched the ADL's website and mission statement. Where do they say "We represent the views of all Jews."?

Reynold Hall wrote "Misochristic means "christ-hating", like misogynistic means women-hating."

I suppose I should thank you for the education, but the sheer ugliness of that word has dumbfounded me. Excuse me, but I must spit to get the taste of that word out of my mouth.

Hi, Fleming. Glad to see you're still around. Say, I'm still curious about the comment you made on the HIV vaccine post -

The quest for an HIV vaccine is an utter failure. All scientists who have been part of this inept quest should really be fired.

My question to you was -

"And replaced with whom? Or are you saying that no one should even make the attempt?"

I was wondering if you had given any thought to that?

Here's my somewhat random and overarching comment: if all you know about someone is that they are Jewish, there's very little else you can tell about what they're like or what they think about any particular subject.

By mgarelick (not verified) on 02 May 2008 #permalink

Here's my somewhat random and overarching comment: if all you know about someone is that they are Jewish, there's very little else you can tell about what they're like or what they think about any particular subject.

Just to be devil's advocate... I would think that knowing someone is Jewish would make it at least slightly less probable that they are an anti-Semite. I'm just sayin'.

Hi all,

Here's my lengthy retort to David Klinghoffer's inane reply to my e-mail regarding the ADL statement against "Expelled" (see below).



Dear David,

How sweet. So you are denying the fact that we're both fellow Brown University alumni? Are you suffering from selective amnesia? And if you are suffering from selective amnesia, should I ask Dr. Ruth Simmons, President of Brown University, to investigate whether you should be stripped of your Brown University undergraduate degree for your ongoing acts which are contrary to what one would expect from thoughtful, educated Brown alumni? Again, I'm not going to warn you again if I decide to make such a request of President Simmons, in response to yet another ludicrous, bizarre post of yours at either the Discovery Institute website or National Review (or elsewhere).

But let's get right to the point, shall we? None other than a fellow conservative, author John Derbyshire - writing in the latest online edition of National Review - regards the dissemination of Intelligent Design and other flavors of creationism as a grave threat to the core values of Western Civilization. In short, he regards your acts - as well as those of your fellow Discovery Institute mendacious intellectual pornographers Casey Luskin, Bill Dembski, Paul Nelson, Bruce Chapman, Mike Behe, and Jonathan Wells - as those of barbarians who are seeking to destroy all that is noble and good with regards to Western Civilization.

As for your inane assertion that 'Darwinism' was somehow responsible for Nazism, the facts speak for themselves. Nothing can be further from the truth, simply because Hitler relied upon centuries of Christian persecution against Jews and the Ottoman Turkish genocide against Armenians during - and immediately after - World War I as the necessary 'facts' for initiating the Shoah. As for Darwin himself, he had more in common philosophically with Abraham Lincoln than with the likes of Adolf Hitler, Josef Goebbels, Vladimir Lenin or Joseph Stalin (Although I will note that your 'colleague' Bill Dembski's philosophy more closely resembles his 'mentor' Goebbels - which is why I have referred to him as the 'Josef Goebbels of the Intelligent Design movement' - than his 'saviour' Jesus Christ. That's an accurate assessment in light of Bill's death threats against eminent University of Texas ecologist Eric Pianka and the Texas Academy of Science, his constant attacks upon critics - both known and little known - like fellow Brown alumnus Kenneth R. Miller, Professor of Biology, Brown University - and his rather crude attempts last December at organizing an online 'hate campaign' against me and in trying to censor my harsh, but accurate Amazon.com review of his latest published example of mendacious intellectual pornography, the 'textbook' 'The Design of Life'. Indeed, Bill's pathetic 'Christian' behavior stands in stark contrast with the genuine 'Christian' behavior I have seen from a Muslim, former U. S. Army Chaplain James Yee, a relative of mine. I am certain that Christ himself would acknowledge Jim's behavior while condemning Bill's for being 'Satanic'.).

If I wish to learn more about Judaism, I'll devote time to reading any of Jacob Neusner's books, or the writings of eminent ecologist Mike Rosenzweig; yours I won't waste my time reading, since they belong only in one's circular file, outward bound for the nearest trash dump.

Ever True,

John Kwok

By John Kwok (not verified) on 02 May 2008 #permalink


"I was wondering if you had given any thought to that?"

That's sweet of you to think that he gives any thought to, well, anything.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 02 May 2008 #permalink

That's sweet of you to think that he gives any thought to, well, anything.

Granted, smart money is against it. But every human interaction represents an opportunity to do something right, and act like a grownup. I've given him an opportunity. Regrettably, he seems to have found other pastures to troll.

@freelunch (4): "Obviously Mr. Klinghoffer is now an evangelical Christian, just as Mr. Stein has become."

As a Jew myself, I resent the implication that we can't be completely, blindly, bizarrely stupid without help from a bigger, more "capable" religion. I'm pretty sure there were stupid Jews centuries before there were any kind of evangelical Christians. Soft expectations like that are more than a little insulting . . . or, wait . . . Maybe that's a good implication?

I'm just a little turned around from seeing the ADL and Abe Foxman get called out for pushing "liberal causes" of all things.

Hi all,

I just sent this e-mail to the DI Jew, David Klinghoffer, which I am posting here in a slightly corrected version.



Dear David,

Since you're the DI Jew - and hence the expert in such matters - I thought I'd ask you if Bill Dembski is Meshuggeneh (My apologies for misspelling the Yiddish word, which I am most likely, so am writing it phonetically). I was just wondering since I've posted this at Amazon.com:


I honestly think Bill is Meshuggeneh since he's dire need of some counseling, especially when he indulges in such frat boy antics of the kind he posts at his Uncommon Dissent website, as I've noted in my Amazon.com comment. You would think he'd have more time to devote towards disseminating his favorite mendacious intellectual pornography, Intelligent Design, than rant and rave about Ken Miller's wealth (or Francisco Ayala's) or strike such a low blow by asserting that eminent University of Chicago evolutionary geneticist Jerry Coyne resembles Herman Munster (BTW, I met Jerry last week and he remarked that he thought Bill had 'struck a low blow'. I also told him what transpired between Bill and noted University of Texas ecologist Eric Pianka; he wasn't aware that Bill had sicced the Department of Homeland Security on Pianka and had also orchestrated a 'death threat' campaign against him and the Texas Academy of Sciences.)

It's rather bizarre for Bill, of all people, to assert that Intelligent Design is a 'middle class' idea, while evolution is an 'upper class' idea; it's like Bill Clinton asserting that he's a good ol' boy from Hope, Arkansas, when he's actually a spoiled brat Ivy Leaguer with a Rhodes Scholarship too. I am well aware that Bill graduated from the Catholic version of Philips Exeter or Stuyvesant, Portsmouth Abbey, and that his childhood was far more 'upper class' than either mine or Ken Miller's (we're both sons of the working class).

But I guess Bill is trying to deny that he's from the 'upper class', since he's probably busy singing the Horst Wessel Lied in his bathroom shower (or perhaps Deutschland Uber Alles, substituting Amerika for Deutschland) and doing his best to emulate his mentor Josef Goebbels (Now really, David. How can a good Jew like yourself want to associate himself with such crypto-Fascist trash like Bill D.?).

Since Bill has ample free time indulging in gratuitious insults against such notable scientists like Francisco J. Ayala, Jerry Coyne and Ken Miller, then he has time to honor my request for a used like new black Leica M7 camera body and a black Zeiss 25mm Biogon lens with lens hood, which he can purchase from..... It's ample compensation for his attempted crude effort at Amazon.com censorship against me and his rather ludicrous online 'hate campaign' which is still ongoing at Uncommon Dissent. If he doesn't honor this request, then I'm looking forward to contacting local Klingon bands around the country, asking them to serve as his 'official' honor guard during his public appearances (They'll also be busy 'explaining' to Bill why there is more truth to Klingon Cosmology than the mendacious intellectual pornography known as 'Intelligent Design' which he prefers.). At least Klingons are honest, practical, sensible people; they killed their deities when these deities proved to be too much trouble for them to worship (No, I'm not suggesting that they kill Bill, but I am suggesting that they try to talk some sense to him for once.).

Last, but not least, I have a great song suggestion for you and your fellow Discovery Institute mendacious intellectual pornographers. You should think seriously of adopting the Dire Straits song 'Money For Nothing' as the official DI anthem. It aptly describes the DI modus operandi. Who knows? Maybe you'll get lucky and get sued by Mark Knopfler too.

Ever True,


By John Kwok (not verified) on 09 May 2008 #permalink