Commenting on the recommendation of the Vatican International Theological Commission to eliminate the concept of limbo, Michelle Tsai, writing for Slate, offers some interesting thoughts on past efforts by church leaders to resolve the final destination of baby souls in the afterlife. It's nice that today there is a growing theological awareness of God's mercy, because just a few centuries ago St. Augustine was offering this:
The fate of unbaptized babies has confounded Catholic scholars for centuries. According to church catechisms, or teachings, babies that haven't been splashed with holy water bear the original sin, which makes them ineligible for joining God in heaven. At the same time, as innocent beings, they surely don't deserve eternal torment. St. Augustine concluded in the fourth century that the babies must be punished in the fire of hell, but only with the “mildest condemnation.”
I have often commented that while the problem of evil may not be a logically watertight argument against the existence of an all loving, all powerful God, it is pretty darn close. But I do think it is a logical impossibility that a just and loving God sentences babies to Hell. Maybe I'm just a dumbass atheist, but it sure looks to me like eternal baby torture is incompatible with being omnipotent and omnibenevloent.
At least Thomas Aquinas would come along later to provide a voice of moderation:
Eight centuries later, Thomas Aquinas thought infant souls wouldn't go to heaven, but they wouldn't suffer in the afterlife, either (and they wouldn't even know what they were missing). Theologians eventually settled on limbo as a hypothetical compromise--a state of natural, though incomplete, happiness.
Well, that's much better.
Incidentally, we shouldn't let the following nugget go by:
Though the Vatican has effectively done an about-face, it won't directly state that limbo never existed. Instead, it says that official church dogma never included the concept and that limbo remains a “possible theological hypothesis.” Why the hemming and hawing? The church can't admit to going against hundreds of years of theological interpretation. Such a reversal would be a sign of error. And since the Roman Catholic Church is imbued with the Holy Spirit, it can never be wrong.
The Church declares that it is imbued with the Holy Spirit and is therefore infallible. But scientists are the arrogant ones?
- Log in to post comments
''Instead, it says that official church dogma never included the concept and that limbo remains a possible theological hypothesis.''
Talk about Orwellian doublespeak: "We (the Vatican) never advocated this hypothesis, but it still remains a possible hypothesis, just in case we have to change our minds in the future by affirming that it is indeed part of Church dogma (and as the dogma is infallible, it was always part of the aforementioned dogma)."
I'm really curious how many Catholics actually give a rats ass about this decision.
If unbaptized babies are allowed into heaven, wouldn't that undercut the notion that the ONLY way into heaven is by accepting Joshua as the Messiah? And if you let in that class of innately sinful humans, then what's next: admitting 'virtuous' pagans who lived before Jesus or allowing in those who lived after Jesus but never benefited from encounters with missionaries? Let babies into heaven, and the whole edifice collapses. That's why the hierarchy is so reluctant to let go of limbo. Without it, either innocents must go to hell, which is intolerable notion, or they must be admitted to heaven, which undercuts a fundamental premise of Christianity.
Elf Eye,
Actually, those ignorant of Christ get grandfathered in. Since infants can't help but be ignorant of Christ, they get a free pass. For how is one to accept Christ as his Lord and savior when he never knew the chap existed?
To quote Dr. Rieux's objection to Father Paneloux in Camus' La peste:
--Je refuserai jusqu'à la mort d'aimer cette création où des enfants sont torturés.
(I will refuse unto death to love this creation where children are tortured.)
Alan K
"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." - Jesus Christ, John 14:6
so even being baptised does not get you in. you have to be mentally able to understand and accept Jesus as your personal savior otherwise you will not go to heaven.
so babies, baptised or not, animals, pets, morons and other disabled people, savages, and non-believers all go to hell.
That's just the way it is.
I wonder if they will publish the changes in Scientology as Tom Cruise pronounces them? I mean I don't think I could go on living if I found out Xenu actually used a spirit wand to collect those alien souls instead of a mega soul collector 2000, it would crush me. :-(
I think that when a religion changes some fundamental aspect of their kooky story the reply from the media should be "Nobody gives a $%^&!".
If the virtuous pagans can get "grandfathered in", because God's an OK bloke who understands that they just didn't have the opportunity, what happens to those atheists who might have accepted Jesus had the people who "witnessed" to them only not been arrogant, self-righteous blowhards?
A cynical Catholic friend of mine wondered what happened to all of the people who went to hell before Vatican II because they ate meat on Fridays.
As an aside, Conditionalism and Universalism both address the question of eternal torture: It just plain doesn't happen for any humans.
What happens if you're an unbaptised heathen atheist devil like myself and you go to hell but then the Mormons posthumously baptise you? Do you get yanked out of hell? Does Beelzebub have a right of appeal? What if you're already in some other heaven, the Catholic one for example? Do you go from one heaven to another? Which one is best?
I'm glad I'm not a theologian, it must be a nightmare trying to resolve these crucially important questions.
And FYI, whether a baby goes to heaven or hell depends on how often and how loudly it cried while alive. Stands to reason.
I think another interesting question is why God allows babys to die at all, given their inherent innocence. He knows their future, he knows they will die, so what is the point of them being born at all? If all babies died peacfully without suffering, that would be one thing... but how often is that the case? God is often compared to a father, well no father would ever allow such a thing to happen to his child.
"God is often compared to a father, well no father would ever allow such a thing to happen to his child."
Well, it would be nice if that were so, but it isn't. A certain subset of fathers do horrendous things to their children all the time. The difference being that, rather than saying that those lousy fathers work in mysterious ways, we just throw their sorry asses in jail.
I recommend everyone interested in this post should read "Job: A comedy of Justice" by Robert Heinlein. It specifically(and humorously) addresses the question of multiple heavens and the like.
Anyone know of the references for the research studies on those in hell vs. those in heaven?
Shhh! Don't tell Orac, but how does this latest ruling affect The Hitler Zombie? As the old saying goes, Hitler was kind to women and dogs... and by Hitler's twisted logic, was doing good to start WWII and kill Jews, Gypsies, etc. So. If Hitler was doing good, by his standards, and professed to be a Catholic, which he did, doesn't this mean that Hitler is in Christian Heaven?
J-Dog: that reminds me of a skit I saw on TV a while back where a man goes to heaven and meets his pedophile grandfather and Hitler. Says Hitler: "Hey, I'm as surprised as you are."
Posted by: Blake Stacey | April 25, 2007 11:56 PM
NO ONE gets grandfathered in. No one who ever lived and died before christ died on the cross is going to heaven. no one who never heard of him, no a single person who did not accept him as a personal savior is going to heaven.
Everyone one except True Christians are going to hell and that's just the way god made the rules.
What happens if you're an unbaptised heathen atheist devil like myself and you go to hell but then the Mormons posthumously baptise you? Do you get yanked out of hell?
again, NO. Mormons don't count, and anyway you would not be able to accept jesus if you're already dead.
The problem you all have is the concept of hell. You all have the wrong concept of hell. There is no fire and brimstone, there is no hell controlled by the devil or levels of hell as described by Dante in his work of fiction. The fact is that hell is the separation of the soul from a relationship with god. Separation from God is the ultimate penalty.
sciencefiction,
You cannot prove that your idea of hell is any more correct than anyone elses. But regardless, the debate isn't about what the details of hell are, the debate is about whether the soul of dead babies are treated the same as the soul of a person who goes to heaven, or to hell.
"The fact is" that the bible says:
"Deut. 32: 22-26: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Hell, Sheol-Hadees, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mishiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men."
which seems to be a bit more involved than "the separation of the soul from a relationship with god"
"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." - Jesus Christ, John 14:6
That verse was Jesus Christ's response to this question posed by Thomas:
"Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?'"
Lol, did Jesus Christ ever give a straight answer to anybody about anything at all? Just answer the damn question, Jesus!
Next verse:
"Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.'"
Yeah, you can guess how the answer to that one went. Lol, religion is so stupid.
It is interesting to note that in after-life experience studies, the percentage of children reporting encounters with "the light" are drastically higher than the percentage of s doing so. Something like 95% to 20%.
Dang baby sitter filter cut a word out
It is interesting to note that in after-life experience studies, the percentage of children reporting encounters with "the light" are drastically higher than the percentage of "older people" doing so. Something like 95% to 20%.
Will the church next address the question of what happens to the souls of aborted babies (aborted either clinically or 'naturally')? Is abortion a sin, condemning the fetus' soul to hell, or a blessing, assuring that soul's sojourn to heaven? Or, was that same St. Augustine correct when he asserted (as opposed to current church doctrine) that the soul doesn't enter the fetus until it 'quickens' in the womb (about five months).
To answer a previous question, perhaps god causes the death of these babies because he knows that he will be protecting them from pediphile priests. Unfortunately, these babies will still meat these priests in heaven, where they will go if they confess their sins in time.
There goes the Catholic church, "changing its mind" again -- though they say they NEVER change. I know, I know...it's doctrine and not dogma -- dogma being written in stone. Oh lordy, dogma -- such nonsense! As for unbaptized souls going to heaven or not -- I ask you, how does ANYBODY know what happens after we die?? The real truth is NOBODY KNOWS!
Kevin, you ignorant fundy. With every bigoted utterance you spew you show yet again that someone like PZ Myers does more on God's behalf in a single blog post, than you will over the course of your life.
I don't care what the Bible says, it never has been God's word. It's nothing more than a collection of rampant speculation, just so stories, ancestor legends, and proto-theology. BTW, nobody died for my sins. I'm responsible for my sins and it's up to me to make good on them.
Kevin, o' flaunter of the miniscule mentality, God wants to let people into Heaven who you think shouldn't be in Heaven, who are you to tell God what to do?
You are a poser and a fraud. You are darkness in light, ignorance in academia. You are to learning what Taz is to Bugs Bunny. You would have us make such a great regression Australopithecus afarensis would be appalled at our constrained intellect.
You're a tool. And not just a tool, but a badly designed, poorly maintained, rotten, rusted, and abused tool. Were you manufactured from raw materials, you would be an example of value subtracted goods.
As I recall, Jesus once said that many people are going to claim to know him, and he'll want to know, "Who the Hell are you?" When your death day comes, be ready for a huge disappointment.
Not all Christians believe or teach an eternal hell. We beleive it is borrowed from Paga relgions. In my understanding the penalty for sin is death. Those who refuse to follow GOD will be brought to life and judged for what they did and did not do. Then they will be punished exactly as the deserve and die and cease to exist. For atheists that will be fine since they thought they were going to cease to exist anyway.
For infants since they never refused and did not know they will be give life to grow up. I am a Seventh day Adventist Christian.
When your death day comes, be ready for a huge disappointment. Posted by: Alan Kellogg | April 27, 2007 03:06 AM
geez dude chill out! I am not going to be disappointed when I die. what I want to know is:
"As I recall, Jesus once said that many people are going to claim to know him,"
When the hades did he say that to you? You've got to let me know. and what language did he speak? what? he knew english? oh that's cool man. you're lucky you have a good memory.
When you said "I don't care what the Bible says." you really meant it. You only go by first hand experience
"I do think it is a logical impossibility that a just and loving God sentences babies to Hell."
See, this is a perfect example of how the needs of a church conflict with the needs of metaphysics. The baptism requirement is necessary to enforce church membership - join or burn. But it makes a mockery of the tenets of the religion - God is benevolent and wants to save us all. This is why I can never take Catholicism seriously, even when it portrays itself as more rational than the fundamentalists. It's a worldly institution and everything it does is informed by that fact. Indeed its theology and the selective application of it by priests and bishops around the world is so obviously driven by the need to maintain temporal power that it's a wonder anybody still takes them seriously at all.
This is one of many instances where it is great to be a Calvinist. Believing that (a) God will have mercy upon whom God will have mercy (in some sense the axiom of Calvinism) and (2) regenerative faith is a gift, not something that results from self-convincing, means that, of course, infants can absolutely go to heaven. God can grant faith to whoever it pleases him to grant faith, even an infant in the womb. And that faith is reckoned as righteousness, imputed from Christ, so it is through faith in Christ than such infants go to heaven, entirely consistent with the gospel.
King David certainly expected to see his dead infant son in heaven.
Sciencefiction:
No, hell is not separation from God--such a thing is not possible. God is omnipresent. The worst part of hell, I'd speculate, will be God's presence, not his absence.
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. (Ps. 139:8)
"God can grant faith to whoever it pleases him to grant faith, even an infant in the womb. "
Um, can you explain what it means for an "infant in the womb" to have faith? I take it that it doesn't mean it accepts Jesus Christ as it's personal saviour.
A heavy lourde must have been dropped on your head--more than once.
Ginger Yellow,
It doesn't. "Accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour" is not a phrase that appears in the bible. It means that an infant can be regenerated just as easily as anyone else God chooses to regenerate--second birth can even come before the first. Faith then is the gift that accompanies that regeneration (Eph. 2:8) If an adult doesn't participate in his own regeneration, why then would we suppose such requirement on an infant.
"It doesn't. "Accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour" is not a phrase that appears in the bible."
I'm well aware of that, although Jesus does say that nobody comes to the father except through him. I was just trying to figure out what faith actually meant in that context. It seems more like grace to me. Not being a believer, I don't really care which is important for salvation, but they seem like different concepts.
A heavy lourde must have been dropped on your head--more than once. Posted by: Robert O'Brien | April 30, 2007 12:44 PM
Robert, who? me or the fundie obsessed Alan?
If you refer to me, I would say no, I was wacked with Bibles. Heavy ones, repeatedly.
Accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior is definantly not a direct quote from the Bible. However, this is a direct quote,"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) So obviously all we have to do to get forgiveness from God is to acknowledge that we have sinned, and ask to be forgiven for them. This is also a direct quote,"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) Now if that verse doesn't say that the way to get to heaven through Jesus is to believe in Him, then I'm not sure what does.
Now about dead infants going to Heaven...
Infants are not born into this world guilty of sin. If they were, then Jesus would have been guilty of sin and his death would have no meaning whatsoever. From this we can safely conclude that infants go to heaven if they have not lived long enough to sin.
Superman,
Are you denying the orthodox doctrine of original sin? Which tells us that every person (except Christ) was born in rebellion to God?
And why then did David write:
Shouldn't he have written "Surely I was innocent at birth, innocent from the time my mother conceived me, up until I was, oh, I don't know, ten or eleven years old."
And why do so many denominations baptize infants--you do know what the water represents?
The NT teaches only one way to heaven--a saving faith in Christ. It even tells us that the OT saints were saved in the same way--by a saving faith in Christ. If babies are in heaven, then it is because they have been given a saving faith in Christ. Otherwise you are forced to postulate a different route to heaven.
And if you postulate that "babies get to heaven because they are innocent" then you must logically conclude that the 40-some million abortions in the US since Roe v. Wade were, in fact, mercy killings.
The Bible clearly states that there is technically more than one way of getting to heaven then through Christ. The other way is absolutely impossible for humans though, that is to just keep God's law and never sin. However Jesus taught of a type of people who don't know or understand the law, and He said that these people are not considered guilty of sin even though though they may have broken God's law. These people are known as being "spiritually blind". Now, I don't know about you, but the type of person who is incapable of knowing/understanding the law sounds a whole lot like a baby to me.
"Jesus said,"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you see, your guilt remains" (John 9:41, NIV) So since babies cannot see, they are not viewed by God as guilty of sin.
The only other option is that they are not spiritually blind, and are capable of understanding and being guilty of sin. If that is the case however, then they must also posses the ability to understand their need to be forgiven for it, in which case they would be able to ask God for forgiveness and so then they would not all go to hell.
Superman,
You are correct, that option, in principle, still exists. But since nobody can fulfill it, it is somewhat irrelevant. Rom. 8:7 tells us that we are unable (not just unwilling) to obey God's Law.
As for the spiritually blind, you are taking that verse seriously out of context:
In this exchange Jesus is affirming that he comes to give sight to the blind--but the Pharisees are aghast that their learned selves should be depicted as "blind." Blind is used as a metaphor for repentant/humble etc. As usual, Jesus slam-dunks the Pharisees saying, in effect, no you are not blind--alas your problem is that you are not blind (i.e., you are prideful in your knowledge) therefore I am not saving you (your guilt remains.) This is not a lesson on an age of accountability or inability to understand the law or anything along those lines. It's a repeat lesson that Jesus did not come for the righteous, but for the unrighteous.
Again, (a) what do you think David meant in Ps 51:5 and (b) if babies go to heaven because of their innocence, wasn't it a good thing they were aborted? The lost their short four-score plus 10 on earth, but never ran the risk of not attaining salvation. A pretty good deal. Surely some of those 40 million would have grown up only to turn away from God and face eternal damnation.
I'm intrigued by Kevin's references to hell-bound "morons" and "savages". Ye unbelievers, bask in the warm glow of Christian love!
LESSONS FROM GOD ; What happens to a Baby's Soul after Abortion or Miscarriage
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(Please think about this then read the following)
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One fine morning at home, I was chanting mantras when Sai Baba appeared and said " come with me", we reappeared in a Gurudwara (temple) with my wife also sitting next to me in the temple Hall.
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Babaji looked at us and said '' I have brought someone to meet you''
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I said, "Baba 'who have you brought''
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Baba said ''Come, meet your other daughter''
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I was totally confused ''Baba you are mistaken we have a daughter we do not have another, ''
'' AHA,! said Baba '' She is your other daughter, do you not, remember the trauma your wife suffered during miscarriage 15 years ago?"
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I replied, "Baba, why have you brought her to see us''
I saw this girl standing next to us tall and very serene as if she had been touched by the hand of GOD!.
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Baba spoke ''
When the mother has a miscarriage or Abortion it is not automatic that the child's soul ascends, If the parents are constantly immersed in prayers then God intervenes and send Angels to take the Baby soul to Heaven/appropriate place, if not in prayers -- then the Baby soul can be trapped in Limbo, becoming a BHOOT/Spirit , and normally attaches itself to it's mother where it is home!
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From the mothers body the Baby soul may cause untold Trauma to its Mother/father and all around. Many times the Soul has no idea that its body/temple has died! The soul watches everything the parents do and interferes with their emotions. Amarjit, this is why its important to immerse in God prayers always.
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God has acknowledged your prayers & Devotion & intervened to take your baby soul Home!".
Baba took hold of our daughters hand and the gates of Heaven opened and he disappeared with the Angels.
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Its only when the Hand of God touches us we realise there is more to life then what we perceive.
We should open our senses and allow our Inner Godhead to awaken.
Baba says "I am God, You too are God but you fail to recognise this!
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OM SAI RAM
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With Miscarriage and Abortions invariably the baby soul stays within the mothers Womb where it was conceived as it is home to it.
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The mother has no idea why she has gone into depression after miscarriage or abortion. She has no idea it could be the Traumatic Soul stuck to her.
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From the womb the Baby Soul then may choose to cause a lot of suffering to her host/ ie Mom and people around. If the baby Soul becomes possessive of the Mother then it will invariably become very jealous and act accordingly with the people attached to MOM!
With an Abortion / Miscarriage while it may be argued that the foetus has no soul in it in the early stages, it was shown to me by Baba that the foetus can be classified as a Phantom Living organism of the Mother similar to ' The Phantom Limb'.
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So Aborting the foetus is similar to that of having a trauma when you loose part of your body, say the Limb , Kidney etc. The very fact of removing this living organism causes Untold trauma especially in the Mother.
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Our body is the temple of God 'Do not defile your Temple'.
Being born as a woman conceiving Wow, Men find it hard to understand why their women behave strangely.
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Meditate on this - for approx 9 months the Mother has 2 soul within her body hers and the baby's.
The baby's mind can also influence the mother during this period!
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Case Study :
My first teaching from Baba happened at a friend's house.
We were praying and suddenly I saw inside his mothers womb a baby soul due to an old miscarriage some 40 years previously.
I asked his Mother to ask God to release this soul to Heaven.
She became nasty and I was asked to leave immediately!
Nowadays I have to be very careful how I word myself.
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Case Study
I was praying with a woman who had gone into depression and ill health when suddenly Sai Baba showed me in her womb was a dark energy. I spoke to this energy and it manifested to 2 Aborted souls which the mother had inside her for over 9 years!.
The souls were jealous of each other and fighting each other inside her womb giving her health and emotional problems within her family. Baba took the souls away after we prayed for their release their Karma to be forgiven . The lady since has changed for the better.
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Case Study
Another lady suffering from Weakness/Emotional problems had darkness attached to her breast.
When I spoke to this darkness it turned out to be an aborted baby soul which was sucking her mothers breast for milk , energetically and draining Mom of all her energies.
A SPIRIT HAS LIMITLESS Energy
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Baba then took away this soul as well. She has changed for the better since with Gods Grace.
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If the women dies with the soul still stuck with her then this becomes a Karmic issue. If say the women is reborn as a man or a woman in the next life this trauma still follows the person reincarnated.
We have seen sometimes the energy becomes absorbed into a Karma Issue or in some cases the Soul waits for the rebirth of the soul it was attached to and as soon as it reincarnates it attaches itself to this Soul , the new body may not be a women it could be a man.
This Karma can be released thru mantras, prayer deep devotion to God or Sadhanas like Vortex , or the Grace of your Guru.
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Click here: Spiritual Reality - Transcribed | dotSUB
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Click here: Phantom limb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Click here: The Hickman Academy, for Spirit Release and Healing Remote Spirit Release, Worldwide
amarjit@41:
For posting to a 5-year old thread here is the mantra you need to repeat:
OWA TANA SIAM