When I was a child during the early to mid 1980s about once a week someone would ask me where I was from, or, would compliment me on my English. Since I had only recently arrived from Bangladesh I would tell them I was from that land and as for the compliment directed toward my language skills I took it as just that. Over the past 20 some years there has been a noticeable drop in the number of these events, roughly declining in frequency as a proportion of the time from 1980 or so. I would offer that over the past year I've been complimented on my English perhaps on average once every 4 or 5 months (when I say people would say I spoke good English once a week in the early 1980s, I'm really not exaggerating much). I'm asked where I'm from a bit more frequently than that, but people don't inquire much after I simply state that my parents are from Bangladesh (since the vast majority of my life has been spent in the United States I don't feel comfortable saying I'm from Bangladesh, and questioners generally are just disoriented when I say I'm from Oregon).
But, there's another dynamic at work here: the likelihood that someone will compliment me on my English or ask where I'm from increases as a direct function of age. That is, it is invariably older people who ask these sorts of questions. Baby Boomers often ask who have some knowledge of India, and quite often they get uncomfortable after blurting out the question, suggesting there is now a heightened sensitivity to the possibility that just because you "look foreign" doesn't mean you are foreign. People who are from the World War II generation though are still very unselfconscious about their compliments and questions, suggesting that they haven't shifted their thinking much. In contrast, is very rare that someone my own age or younger will ask these questions (when it they do they often get really uncomfortable right afterward, suggesting they know they shouldn't have asked the question in the first place).
Part of this is likely greater sensitivity toward such intrusive questions which imply that an American has to look a certain way, but, I suspect that part of it is due to the fact that the average look of an American has diversified such a great deal over the past generation. Since 1980 the number of South Asians in the USA has increased by a multiplicative factor of 5. Additionally, a far larger proportion speak "good English" (that is, without a South Asian accent) now than in 1980, and a substantial number of younger Americans are now familiar with a brown face in their classrooms so that we don't seem quite as foreign. When I say people from the World War II generation tend to simply reflect assumptions that I'm foreign, I'm not saying here the "racist" types at all, generally more progressive & liberal sorts also reflexively project these assumptions (context: I live in an area that is more than 90% white and where 80% voted for John Kerry in 2004). I think this isn't necessarily a conscious process at all, rather, when they were growing up the image of an American was fundamentally either non-Hispanic white or black. If the human mind is a conditional probability engine which biases inputs from one's formative years then it makes sense that these individuals who don't necessarily have any antipathy to a multiracial, as opposed to biracial, America, still reflect the conditions of their youth in their verbal ticks.
Addendum: No need to offer sympathy for the occasional queries and compliments I get in my life regarding my exotic foreign origins, it is really just an irritation. I'm pretty privileged in many ways.
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I love the idea of answering the question "I'm from Oregon." While my parents might ask the benignly racist question, "Where are you from," having you answer that you're from Oregon would instantly register with them (but my parents are a bit younger, graduating from high school in the late 1960s). I teach in CA, where the population of my students is intensely diverse, with no clear plurality (let alone majority). The weird thing for me is that culturally, they're a lot more similar than different, but their various identities are deeply important to them. I do try to gently nudge them toward identifying (in addition to their parents' ethnicities) as American and/or Californian, because I think it's a key way to disrupt and redefine our understandings of what those two categories mean.
Or course, as a pasty white guy, I never get asked that question, so I don't really understand the irritation you describe, other than theoretically and through sympathy. And the dynamics of being gay, a more or less hidden category, I have the inverse problem of always having to out myself (or not) depending on the social situation and what's at stake and necessary.
While my parents might ask the benignly racist question,
i would hesitate to use the word "racist" to describe what's going on here. the charge of "racism" is something i think should be reserved for some more serious stuff. after all, some colored people can get irritated when white people act as if race doesn't matter.
The weird thing for me is that culturally, they're a lot more similar than different, but their various identities are deeply important to them. I
yeah, i don't have a strong racial-cultural identity. i identify pretty strongly with america. it might not endorse me, but i endorse it! ;-)
Or course, as a pasty white guy, I never get asked that question, so I don't really understand the irritation you describe,
if you go abroad i'm sure you get asked really bizarre questions based on what you look like. additionally, to invert this there is a non-trivial population of people born in india whose parents are white (there are large communes and what not). though they might speak hindi without an accent they are assumed to be foreign (this is not always unjustified since many of these kids are binational and somewhat insulated from the realities of south asian life). there are some fair skinned south asians (especially punjabis) who sometimes get this treatment as well.
p.s. because of the way i look (i am pretty vanilla brown aside from less body hair) people, white and brown, assume i am hindu before they hear my name. once they hear my name, they then assume i'm muslim. on the brown weblog sepia mutiny i go by the handle 'razib_the_atheist' specifically because i got tired of correcting people who assumed i was muslim and used that assumption as a starting point for some dialogue (e.g., "you as a moderate muslim blah, blah, blah").
Well, since you have a high IQ, I supposed you have acclimated to American society, Razib... I wonder if the anti-immigration nuts will relinquish their fervor if some hypothetical treatment exists to increase g?
HellKaiserRyo, there's no treatment to increase G, but there is something to prevent a country's IQ from dropping; it's called a border. Apparently one is considered to be "nuts" for believing in borders in this day and age.
I don't know how well you speak English... but you're a great writer!
Sorry, I should have omitted the question mark and instead of saying "hypothetical treatment" "nostrum" would do aptly as it does convey the notion that the "hypothetical treatment" is rather chimerical.
"It's almost certain that I'm wasting my time, however, as their innate intellectual limitations are such that it's likely that only when exciting new genetic techniques have been invented can these ignoramuses be transformed into productive citizens ..."
http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/09/richard_lynn_fe…
Wow, Abiola! I mostly certainly hope those "exciting genetic techniques" will be released forthwith! I hope they will extricate me from the morass of intellectual hebetude. I know two standard deviations above todays norms is inadequate to faciliate rudimentary reasoning.
How about a Native American being asked where he / she was from? I made that faux pas when I asked the charming maitre d' of my favorite Indian restaurant in Omaha if he was from Bhutan (he was an Iroquois from Kansas). I have seen Native Americans being asked similarly ignorant questions and not in such an innocent manner either.
This is a dilemma all minorities EVERYWHERE face. See Naina's latest post on a third gen Chinese Indian's treatment on the Indian Idol contest over at Sepia Mutiny. My college friends in Delhi from Manipur, Assam and Meghalaya were constantly asked by north Indians where they were from. And yes, there was also a white girl, not Anglo Indian but English, whose family had remained in India after independence. Despite her flawless Hindi and totally Indian lifestyle, she was never anything but a firangee. Indian Muslims, no matter what their ethnic/ linguistic background, are Muslims first in the eyes of non-Muslims. I bet the table is turned for Hindus and Christians in Bangladesh and Pakistan.
The US is better than most other places to be a foreign born - not perfect but better. Having grown up as a confident member of the majority community in India, I used to fret about my kids growing up in the US as minorities of a visibly "foreign" origin. I am sure they have had problems that I myself did not have growing up. But I had faced problems which they did not (sexism for one). How things turn out for the children depends on how much confidence the parents show in their own heritage and also how willing and unselfconscious they are in accepting the ways of the newly adopted country. It is a fine balance but it can be done without too much conflict.
My American friends (of the baby boomer generation) are acutely aware of my foreign origin and defer to me in all matters Asian. But they also accept my Americanness as a routine matter. Many of their own parents / grandparents were immigrants and it is not something they find very disconcerting. It is true that people who live in their country of birth, tend to express higher levels of general happiness - strength in numbers. The following is a quote from an article describing Danes as the happiest people in Europe:
Researchers also found that those born in the country where they live tend to be happier than immigrants, suggesting that people can't just move to Denmark to get happier.
But that said, it is also true that home really can be anywhere.
I've been observing this dynamic as a foreigner in Japan. People here will compliment you for anything but especially for your Japanese and your use of hashi (chopsticks).
The dynamic turns out to be a somewhat interesting. At first, the compliments will increase along with your skill. But then, and fairly abruptly, the compliments will become much rarer, and slowly all but disappear. At first, you're very obviously a beginner, slowly and haltingly slaughtering the language in a desperate hunt for grammar and vocabulary that will convey your intended meaning. The compliments you get are words of encouragement - the speaker realizes you're having a hard time and they want to convey both their appreciation for you trying and their encouragement for you to continue to improve. No doubt is there often a bit of self-reflection on their own battle with English involved. And as you get better - and especially if it's a recurring acquaintance that can hear the difference - the compliments of course increase.
But at some vaguely defined cutoff point your language, while still hideous, is suddenly good enough that people start to see you in terms of a _speaker_ of the language, not a student. And as such, of course, you're still pretty bad. I still get the occasional compliment; tellingly it is always when I'm trying to stretch my language and use some grammatical form or expression I'm not yet familiar with and failing to do so correctly.
Well, since you have a high IQ, I supposed you have acclimated to American society, Razib... I wonder if the anti-immigration nuts will relinquish their fervor if some hypothetical treatment exists to increase g?
since the USA has an absolute low average IQ (~100) i am a bit perplexed as to how a high IQ allows me to assimilate? i.e., a high IQ often means you are taunted as a "nerd."
In Taiwan I also got the compliments. What these really were was conventional politeness, Chinese style, and couldn't be taken seriously one way or another. (I.e., you shouldn't believe that you speak Chinese well, and it's silly to be offended. There are people who are offended by the American greeting "How are you?", as if it were a real question. Another conventional Chinese greeting is "Have you eaten?", and you always should answer "Yes" unless it's reasonable to ask them to fix you dinner.)
There's a real turning point when you get integrated enough into the other society to be able to function as a member. Then you have to play by local rules, without the allowances for foreigners. This can be very hard. Chinese and Japanese labor practices are much different, for example -- people are often expected to skip vacations if the company needs them, and the boss is much more like a feudal master than an American boss. Likewise, Chinese extended family makes a lot more demands on people than American extended family (though for Chinese there's a compensation -- if their daughter marries an American, the American's family will make fewer demands on her than a Chinese family would.)
American culture may be the easiest to assimilate to, because it's so heavily economic and technical. Someone who obeys the law, does a good job, pays their bills, and avoids grossly insulting behavior will have met the minimum standard. Immigrants don't necessarily get a warm feeling of "belonging", but a lot of Americans don't get that either. America isn't the coziest place.
I have a HS friend (grad. 1965) who went native in Japan. That's an amazing accomplishment -- Chinese society, though difficult, is much more receptive than Chinese society. I haven't seen him for decades, but he should write a book.
I don't feel like a Canadian by identity, even though my family has been here for generations. There's not a lot of national unity up here, the white mainstream is not homogeneous nor has it a really well defined culture. Maybe the nation is too young. I've adopted to calling myself a hyphenated-canadian, replacing the hyphenated with my ethnic background. I look to my traditional ethnic culture rather than to the media for my cultural identity. Maybe there is a Canadian culture, but I just don't like it, I think I'm alienated from it.
I love the multicultural approach of Canada, as opposed to an American style melting pot. The friends I have who are immigrants are so dynamic and energetic as opposed to my fellow Canadian born, it's like a breath of fresh air, I try to learn what gives them this drive that this country can't create natively. I suspect traditionalism is much healthier than the young culture of the americas, and that to assimilate away from your traditional culture can cause you to raise your children with diminished opportunities.
From what little you've told us, my impression is that suddenly being liberated from restriction and tradition often leads to an outburst of creativity and free expression. Being born into freedom leads one to not appreciate it as much. Perhaps young cultures are healthiest for those transplanted to them from older, static cultures.
of south asian life). there are some fair skinned south asians (especially punjabis) who sometimes get this treatment as well.
Are you sure you're thinking of punjabis, maybe not kashmiris instead? Us punjabis might like to talk up our fair complexion, but I doubt we are fooling anybody's eyes, the bulk of us are an undeniably distinct shade of brown (and no shame in it). Kashmiris on the other hand, I've met a few I thought could easily pass for having southern european ancestry.
As an ex-pat Brit (light skin, black hair) who has been in Canada for most of the past 30 years and not lost his accent I am quite often asked where I come from, especially by taxi drivers who are themselves fairly obviously recent immigrants.
Not so long ago I spent 6 years in Namibia where I bought a house in the capital city. However, I spent the last 18 months in the north, where I had a house, while my wife stayed in Windhoek. If I went to a village and people asked where I was from, I never knew what answer they were looking for. Britain? Canada? Windhoek? Ogongo? It never bothered me that they were asking. I think many people are genuinely curious and it is a convenient conversation-opener.
If you find it irritating, the best policy may be to answer politely, then ask the questioner where they are from. I imagine the reaction will fairly clearly separate those who are being curious from those who have stereotypic views.
Are you sure you're thinking of punjabis, maybe not kashmiris instead?
yeah, i thought of saying that. i was trying to 'compliment' you peeps.
Obviously: "Chinese society, though difficult, is much more receptive than JAPANESE society."
"a high IQ often means you are taunted as a "nerd.""
Only in Secondary School. College is the great equalizer, I was never once called a nerd in college.
I grew up in Eastern Ireland and came here as an adult, and was often asked where I come from - people usually guessing incorrectly, that I was Canadian, New Englander, Australian, South African, etc. I also used to get compliments on my ability to speak English, and even when I told someone I was Irish, was asked, "Where I learned to speak English??"
I always found all this highly amusing...
Also, maybe I'm naive or un-PC, but I almost always ask someone - on first meeting them - where they are from?! I'm eternally curious about people and their origins. Far too often I get the reply, "I'm a mutt", or "I think my ancestors were mostly European". Quite frankly, I'm often amazed that Americans don't know the origins of even their grandparents. I've heard people say, "My grandfather was German or French I think" - like there was no differences between such peoples?!
"My grandfather was German or French I think" - like there was no differences between such peoples?!
Well there isn't a hell of a lot of racial/genetic difference between those nations of origin. There are strong cultural differences of course, but they may not have been preserved in the American cultural mélange in that family - and appear not to have been.
The fact is that different groups have assimilated to greatly varying degrees in this country. There also are of course greatly varying amounts that families and individuals have assimilated within any ethnic group. There are also quite varying degrees to which different immigrant groups have changed America, although all sizeable groups have had some impact.
I would say for example that Germans (who arrived early and in sizeable percentage numbers) and Poles have both assimilated nearly totally and quite rapidly, and/but haven't had that much group impact on America. Jews (mostly due to high intelligence, leftist political stance, and very high ethnic consciousness) and the Irish (due to large numbers and also high Catholic conscious and initially lagging achievement and hence slow assimilation) on the other hand have changed America substantially. The model East Asian ethnicities in contrast have so far had limited group impact on America, other than adding variety since they tend to maintain strong cultural identities in things like food, and in joining others in emphasizing educational achievement. However they do this largely to get ahead within the existing system, rather than to change that system.
dexplorer,
The Irish influence on the US is also a result of their deft facility in politics - partly attributed to their strong verbal skills - whether cultural or genetic?! Since JFK, all US presidents with the exception of Jimmy Carter and possibly Lyndon Johnson, have been all or partly Irish.
To flip Razibs' comments around. About a decade back, I went to bangladesh and they asked me (Im brown as well) how I speak such good english