Richard Dawkins: 'There is something illogical about the fear of death':
The comfort of a dying soldier, the succour for a grieving mother or belief in the after-life of a widower - is it still possible to see the utility of certain psychological aspects in some religious beliefs or customs? [Interviewer - R]
I do see a psychological value, if it does have a real value. I would not wish to be the person who destroys that person's psychological succour. I would not compromise with my public speaking out in the public forum and writing. But if I was visiting someone who was recently bereaved, I might dissemble somewhat in what I said, but would not do so when writing a newspaper article. It is also disputable whether it is that comforting, given that people are brought up to fear hell for example. They might actually be comforted by the lack of religion, depending on their upbringing. Although many of us fear death, I think there is something illogical about it. [Dawkins - R]
My answer to Dr. Dawkins is in the title. To paraphrase an old saying, I learned it from reading you! Granted, it's a short interview and I hope Dawkins is talking in the proximate sense of logic as opposed to ultimate evolutionary logic. But even then I'm having a hard time conceiving of why fear of death would be illogical, after all it often involves pain and there are plenty of "logical" reasons to fear pain.
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If he meant fear of being dead rather than fearing the process of dying it makes complete sense.
I don't fear death per se, but I do fear (1) dying prematurely and (2) dying painfully. Once I'm dead, I won't know I'm dead because, well, I'll be dead. I can't very well be afraid of something that I will be incapable of experiencing. However, I want to be around awhile for my daughter. I'd also like to be around as long as I am neither in chronic pain nor severely debilitated. My eighty-six year old mother suffers chronic back pain and talks longingly about the prospect of dying. In short, if I have had a satisfactory turn at living, then I think I shall be content at the prospect of ceasing to be, especially if I have aged to the point at which my life is no longer pleasant and rewarding.
Actually I greatly fear dying too late (post-maturely?) after my body (or worse yet my mind) has severely deteriorated. It's better to die sooner than have one's last years trapped in a deteriorating bed-bound body, or worse yet deteriorating mind.
I want my grandchildren to remember me as alive and robust right up to the end rather than some incoherrent semi vegetable that they visit out of obligation.
If atheists believe nothing occurs after death, and religious people believe in the afterlife (most of whom, I think we can safely assume, believe that they are going to heaven -- I would assume that if I were religious), then Dawkins is correct, isn't he? Fear of nothing or fear of everlasting life in your religion's version of heaven does seem illogical.
But I think it is not so much the fear of death, but the fear of the unknown.
Death freakin' terrifies me. Possibly the unknown, I am about 99% certain that there is nothing after we die and I don't like nothing. I suppose I could find comfort in the concept of an afterlife, but I can't bring myself to believe in it. It's one of the problems with being an athiest, I'd still prefer damnation then oblivion. I have read something that was suppose to be a comforting observation, that we were oblivious before we were born and we'll return to this state after we die. The problem is, in the interm I developed an ego and a consciousness. Hey, if that never happened fine, but now that I'm aware, the idea of that awareness being taken away from me bothers the shit out of me. My awareness is fed by my senses and perceptions, everything, the world the universe, love, hate,touch, smell etc all come from me and the way I perceive it. The universe ceases to exist when I cease to exist. I hate that!
Nah, you're just assuming a painful death here. For us lucky Westerners we're far more likely to drop off in our sleeps, comfortably numbed by whatever drugs are available. I don't fear that. I do fear pain, but in the case of a painful death then the death part would be a release from the pain.
I don't fear death at all and find that fear somewhat illogical, if understandable in people who haven't really thought about. I do fear dying painfully and, as Jay pointed out, not dying before my body and mind have degenerated to the point where they're barely useable.
I think Dawkins means that it's illogical to fear being dead, because once you're dead, you're... well, you're dead.
But all of you bring up good points. It could be evolutionarily adaptive to fear death. And there are good reasons to fear dying.
Once I'm dead, I won't know I'm dead because, well, I'll be dead. I can't very well be afraid of something that I will be incapable of experiencing.
That's the classical argument against fear of death (famously featured in De Natura Rerum). And I believe that's what Dawkins was talking about.
Of course, humans are emphatically not logical or rational creatures. Fear of death is not about logic, it's an instinct. You don't fear death because of rational calculations, but just because that's how your brain is wired. So the fact that fear of death is not logical, although true, is not relevant to its existence and intensity.
There are those transhumanists who think that in the distant future, there'll be the technology to re-create all the conscious beings that ever lived -- the Omega point or something it's called.
Don't know how many people take stock in that idea. Even if technology could "resurrect" people, is that really resurrecting or just creating a new copy that become aware and live its own life, and not the you that has continuous experience that the traditional afterlife implies.
With regards to Dawkins' comment and your title, Razib I think they might not be mutually exclusive.
Many things that are adaptive are illogical if you think about it -- isn't a major point of evolutionary psychology, to explain some of the reasons we don't aren't fully rational thinkers/decision-makers?
Hey Susan, I guess the challenge is to accept that consciousness and ego are accidental and not a "given right" or some such. It does of course clash with the essence of the ego itself, but we 21st century folks should be clever enough to not feel so personally offended by the downside of this state of affairs. The universe won't cease to exist with you and there will still be plenty of cool stuff going on. Meanwhile enjoy your personal accident!
If you don't think Nothing is scary, you are not Living.
Fearing death is logical.
Fearing an event causes us to take action to avoid it. Taking action to avoid death is a good thing, both from an evolutionary and personal standpoint.
Even when death is inevitable, fear is the logical conclusion. We still want to maximize our amount of non-dead time, so delaying death is the optimal solution. Fear is still a good mechanism for achieving that goal.
RandyRandy has it.
Honestly, I don't know what Dawkins is up to these days. All he seems to do is spend his time either saying silly things, or talking about things in areas he has no expertise in. Where's the science?
Are you all serious? I'm actually really surprised at these posts. Death is scary. I like my consciousness and my ego and am saddened and scared by the prospect of a spacetime where they don't exist. Something like this is obviously adaptive (although not neccessarily in this reflexive, very human way; non-reflexive fear of conditions that might bring about death are common to a lot of creatures). And to GroovingClockwork, what does whether it is a "right" or not have to do with it? Fear is neither based on any normative propositions about 'rights' nor any ontological propositions about 'accidents.' Sure consciousness is, in some sense, an accident (whatever such a statement can mean at such an ontological remove from actual human knowledge) but it's the only accident we've got. I'm scared to give it up.
Even when death is inevitable, fear is the logical conclusion. We still want to maximize our amount of non-dead time, so delaying death is the optimal solution. Fear is still a good mechanism for achieving that goal.
Look at the interviewer's examples. Fear of death does not help in delaying death in any of them.
RandyRandy has it.
No, he doesn't, he seems to think that useful equals logical. I rather think that deadpost had it better.
Um... at least half these posts (no I didn't count) support the logic of finding death scary, so I'm not sure what you're surprised about. Your second half of your post hits the nail on the head though. Fear has nothing to do with 'rights' and everything to do with 'stuff we don't want to happen', including 'stopping being conscious living beings'
The interviewers examples were not of situations where people fear death, except the soldier.
In most cases fear of death leads to behaviour likely to postpone death. The fact that situations exist (the dying soldier) where this is not the case does not detract from that fact.
It really depends on what you mean by logical. If you mean that they fear itself results from a logical cause (i.e. adaptation to increase the likelihood of survival) then of course fear of death is logical.
If you mean 'in this situation is the fear based on a logical platform' then no, there is no such thing as a logical fear. Dead or alive our atoms still exist, our consciousness is no more important than the particular configuration of a rock. To believe otherwise is the self-delusion of ego (programmed in because it helps us survive). But lack of fear is no more logical
Here are the reasons one particular atheist gave for fearing death.
The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse
- The good not done, the love not given, time
Torn off unused - nor wretchedly because
An only life can take so long to climb
Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never;
But at the total emptiness for ever,
The sure extinction that we travel to
And shall be lost in always. Not to be here,
Not to be anywhere,
And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true.
This is a special way of being afraid
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast, moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear - no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anasthetic from which none come round.
Read the whole thing!
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/aubade/