I am one pissed off m@f$@#ker.

I'm with you Greg, this makes me extremely pissed off too. These ignoramusii must forfeit their social security and medicare. Your self-control is admirable, I would've swatted the stupid beeyatch. Do you think they were corporate trolls or authentic flat-earth types? Thanks for the vid.

I like ths other person do not want government telling what I can and cannot do about my own healthcare. The far left says this all the time in regards to abortion. I suppose the hypocrisy runs too deep to be recognized on that insane side of the isle.

I'll go to the doctor I choose, when I choose, and I choose my treatment options. I make thiose decisions, not some fascist government nutjob.

If government proceeds to tell me where I can and cannot go, what doctor I can and cannot see and what options they will or will not pay for, then it's time to get rid of that government, imprion them, and hire an all new band of government officials who endorse freedom, not tyranny.

In short, fuck the government, I'll do it myself.

As far as your so called swine flu vaccinations, which one of you maggots are going to get their neck broke trying to give it to me? I refuse tyranny. Freedom to live or die fighting! Fuck socialism and all their Nazi asshole licking counterparts. Socialism is evil. Look how many people has died under the guise of a perfect govenrment run healthcare system - millions!

The healthcare bullshit is nothing more than another leftists marxist campaign for population control. I hope they get hit by a damned asteroid and die from anal leakage. Fuck socialist tyranny, fight for freedom! Down with union thugs, ACORN criminals and SEIU whoremongers. Fuck 'em all. May they eternally have sore assholes and shrunken dicks. May they forver feed on three day old lumpy terds from a 80 year government run mandatory suicide baby killing health scare mandate patient. May the swallow the entire terd and may it get lodged at the base of the neck.

Anal leakage sucks and so do those who eat it -the communist freaks who impose their governmental tyranny on the free world!

may those who censor other people's free speech have their own terds smeared across their fascist tyrranical wrinkled excuse for a face.

Rumpledforeskin - Thanks for your input. I'll just be leaving now... scuse me...

Rumple is obviously a Poe.

Yeah... but a scary one.

So Snoop .... you was bout to "slam the bitch" huh? Was you gonna get yo strap and smack dat bitch cross her mouth? Kick some ignorant stupid shit's ass .... you big strong man you!

Real fucking tough Mr (bin) Laden ... but after seeing some pictures of you I think that little old ladies might be the only people you can intimidate.

Just to be clear, Rumple's post is sufficiently offensive, obnoxious, and threatening that it qualifies for deletion as well as a complaint to the IP it came from. The only reason that hasn't happened yet is because I'm slightly distracted and busy with some other things. I may not bother, if there is enough ridicule by the time I get back to looking at it.

Whew! Heh-heh. Rumple had me going there for a sec. Nobody's really that stupid... right?

Wait a minute... there were a lot of horrible un-spelled words in there. Hmmmm.

Oh... well, OK, then. Unless you make threats against other commenters or me or a loved one, your privacy is protected on this blog. But if you make a threat you are meat.

Rumple is Evolution Denier. Remember ED? His/her IP is from Madison, Wisconsin.

Have at him, if you will.

OOOOOOH. da wittle wiberal got his wittle feelings hut. So he got his own wittle butoon. Boo Hoo. Go tell daddy Obama to give you tissue for free to bow you wittle nosey on.

Maybe daddy Obama will make things all better once dem wittle americans are out of his hair. Tell daddy Obama dat sociawism is da way to beat dem mean people. Boo hoo.

Dem mean wittle people hut my wittle feelings. I was supposed to have AAAAAAAALL da attention and dem free americans stole my wittle spotlight. BOOOOO HOOOOOO HOOO! WAAAAAA!

It doesn't seem fair to call these people astroturfers. Are they ignorant and probably stupid? Almost certainly. Are they vulnerable to fear mongering and too lazy to bother checking the facts? Probably.

However, none of that makes them astroturfers. Astroturfing is the appearance of fake grassroots. That's not what is going on here. These people are likely not being hired to push their opinions or anything similar. These are real, middle class or lower middle class people who have been taken in by propaganda. Dealing with them and similar situations requires some understanding of that and labeling them astroturfing is really unhelpful. It makes the term have much less force when used for actual astroturfing about health care (or any other issue) occurs.

OK, that settles it. I'm definitely NOT deleting this.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, we have the carefully considered thoughts of a Teabagging Astroturfing Creationist, for your consideration.

(I may still complain to the ISP. One time when I did that, it was a work IP and the person was summarily fired. That would be cool.)

Joshua, I basically agree with what you are saying, however, the people who show up at the town meetings (that outside of their CD's) are astroturfing, and as far as I know the busses are full of the ignorant backwards thinking scum to whom you refer. So, the couple to whom I refer (and Mr. insane evolution denier) may not have gone to exgtra-CD meetings to scream at people, but they are still aprt of the same movement.

I guess the disconnect here is not that it is not grassroots, but rather, it is not real. We have a system, and grassroots refers to the people engaging rather than just the activists. But if that "engagement" consists of geting on a bus to drive half way across the state to pretend (lie) that you are members of a different CD, then this is not grassroots. It is bullshit, and you are a tool of the organized astroturfers.

Besides, it's a slur. Who cares if the slur is exactly right. But I do see your point.

I gotta say I'm glad the universal healthcare in Canada isn't anything like what's being proposed in the US!

Freedom to choose a physician...and get a second opinion - check
Freedom to choose treatments - check
Freedom to maintain lifestyle after unexpected health issues are resolved - check
Freedom to have an abortion OR NOT - check
Freedom to have premature infants treated - check
Freedom to make an informed own end of life decision - check

I can wait while people with more pressing health problems are taken care of.

Fine I'll leave. The only reason I posted this in the first place was becuase of my own free speech rights. day after day Ihear people yapping about free speech and how we mean conservatives censor people. looks like we are the ones being censored. I'll leave, but you have to admit that you yourself was contemplting violence aganist your adversary becuase they opposing views as well. And at a stupid twonhall meeting at that. Everyone knows these things are a setup and filled with ACORN and union memeber and supporters of the person conducting the townhall, but all the polls indicate the townhall meetings are making this whole healthcare fiasco look bad anyway.

You have to realize that there are a great number of people who wish America to reamin free and not socialized at all. SS and Medicaid ar sort of social programs. If I could opt out I would. Then I would triple my money and retire better than what SS would pay me. The fact that I am forced against my will to [pay for something i disagree with is not freedom, it's tyranny. You might not like what i said or how I said it Greg, but I feel just as strong or stronger than you do about this whole thing.

You ended up handling the situation quite well I might add. Some liberals would have just had the Black Panthers maul the woman in the parking lot (like they did in the election), but you kept your cool. What really makes me mad though is the fact that left leaning politicians and citizens have the audacity to scream for socialisma and turn around and call us nazis. We are only trying to keep what little freedom we have left. If you wish to delete my posts, go ahead. it's your right and your blog, but remember you and I are not so different in these ways.

Greg,

I do apologize for my first post here, but I was pretty angry about how you looked down on people of whom you disagree and thus my reason for posting as I did. I felt a bitter anger at that moment and posted my immediate feelings as I am sure you did as well.

Go ahead and censor/delete the post if you want, but remember I didnlt start this and have had a number of raher vile and viscious emails towards me in the past (not from you). They were much more sinister and threatening than I have ever been.

I'll apologize for the post, you can accept or not, but just remember when you bite, you usually get bitten back. If we could have a sensible conversation about this healthcare issue, we probably would. But colleagues of mine insist on screaming their head off at politicians at these meetings, but then again, ACORN and the unions are there to keep the peace right?

The truth is we don;t trust the government and we don't trust Obama. We trust CBO numbers, our tax dollars, and our individual rights only. Outside of that, it's hard to get us to beileve anything the government says.

Dude, there is no way that rumpledoucheskin dude is serious. He's gotta be kidding around.

CPP: That's what I thought when he was "Evolution Denier" last week (after I thought for a moment that may be it was you ... or a couple of other people I know ... fooling around).

He maybe a poe. I guess that's the whole point of poe-ness.

Dude, what's a "poe"?

Fine I'll leave. The only reason I posted this in the first place was becuase of my own free speech rights. day after day Ihear people yapping about free speech and how we mean conservatives censor people. looks like we are the ones being censored.

NO, please don't leave! It's fun having you around!

You are a moron, of course. You don't have free speech rights on my blog any more than you can walk into my house and eat the food in my fridge. By commenting here you are using somebody elses hard drive space. That's a privilage. The Fist Amendment does not protect you from me.

But it does protect me from you (referencing your earlier posts on creationism).

The point is you are not being silenced or censored. You are making that up.

Why don't you trust Obama? He is far, far more trustworthy than most people we've ever had as president in recent history!

The problem with the counter-comments you submitted in opposition to the right-winger is that there are right-wingers who seriously advocate just what you suggested, people who for ideological reasons actually want to get rid of all government programs, to privatize literally everything, even fire departments and the police. They're called Libertarians.

A "Poe" is a person who produces discourse that follows "Poe's Law"

From the Urban Dictioniary:

"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

deang: I know. I was making fun of them. Of course, when their house burns down and they get robbed I won't be so unkind.

HAHAHAHAH! That Poe shit is hilarious! The Poe Law is a corollary to the Law that no matter how far off-the-deep-end a parody of fuckwittitude you construct, there will be real fuckwittitude that is even further.

There is a theory that fuckwittitude has a maximum speed and as you approach it you get shorter and shorter and heavier and heavier....

no, wait, that's light, not fuckwittitude. Never mind.

Rumpleforeskin is just acting out because it is the first of the month and he used his welfare check to get an eight-ball. He gets mouthy when smoked up.

Give him a day or two and he will sober up enough to use his food stamps to buy real food and retire to his government financed low-income housing to have a good meal. Sobered up and well fed he is a pretty good guy. He has a fair record showing up to work at his government job shoveling used condoms and needles out of the ditches.

Those condoms were provided by a government program, no doubt!

Greg, why are you so angry? Chill dude. Just because some people don't like your liberal svaior's plan for healthcare? Because so-called "progressives" cannot handle the fact that these poor, stupid Repubs/conservatives/astroturfers are skeptical of what you elitists want to shove down our throats?

Well, you have already failed. Your lib saviors rushed something too big, too complex and too much on people after already ramming stimulus and cap and tax down our throats and now we are spitting back up at you. Just like the babies we are, aren't we?

Why not trying actually debating the issue and discussing the provisions of HR 3200 and its companion bills in such a way that people might buy into it? Because all the left wants is to stick it to the health insurers. Most of us are not shills for the insurance industry but you seem to think that because we disagree with your elitist view of the world, we are insco suck ups. Wrong again and another reason why the Dems will lose many seats next year.
Medicare is going broke faster than home builders but the idiots on the left cannot see the forest for the trees. As the baby boomers retire it leaves fewer of us to pay for them--unless taxes are increased. But the left loves that, too so they don't have to actually make intelligent decisions about their money.
Maybe a discussion of the real issues, like portability, medical homes, tort reform, state insurance mandates, who the "uninsured" really are might be helpful.

I am certainly not against discussion of the health care bill. But that is hardly the point here. I am gussing, but in my elitist way I'll call it an educated guess, that the person I met today had no clue why she is against the health care. She could barely articulate her point. She's against it because Rush Limbaugh told her to be against it.

I've heard almost nothing regarding the issues from the right other than utterly asinine fear mongering.

"You don't have free speech rights on my blog any more than you can walk into my house and eat the food in my fridge. By commenting here you are using somebody elses hard drive space. That's a privilage."

I sort of understand. Except one thing. Under Obamacare You will be getting health coverage using MY paycheck money which makes that a privildege as well. Being forced against my will to pay for something that I do not want is very unconstitutional. How can I be forced against my will to pay for this when i don;t even want it. It's almost as if a robber holds me at gunpoint and makes me buy is neighnbor's lunch. How does his neighbor's lunch affect me and why should I have to be forced to pay for it? I don't even like dill pickles. I wouldn't mind the government health plan so much if they would destrpy the public option part of ii, take out abortion, and then allow people who choose their own coverage to NOT pay into the government system. I do not want to pay for this since I will not be using it. It should be voluntary - only those who want it should have to pay for it.

I admit I do not like parts of what we have now. I would much rather get rid of half the trial lawyers and make insurance available across state lines and make them more competititive. Maybe put a cap on trial lawyer payouts and reduce the cost of a doctor's operating expenses. That's a start.

My insurance is not terribly expensive. I am 30 years old and healthy with no real health issues. That will change as I get older and I realize insurance companies can sometimes be a pain to deal with, but I'll take my chances with them over government anyday.

I'll leave this as my last post. I have to get ready for bed now and go to work tomorrow to pay for someone else's stuff. That sucks. I barely make enough to pay my own stuff. I am not selfish and will give to those in need no matter their beliefs Greg. I seriously disagree with your politics as you do mine. owever, if you wre dying and I were able to help you I would. If you were hungry I would help you out. I am not a bad person. I just do not trust government run programs. I didn;t like evrything Bush did either. he created too many rules of engagmement in iraq when the only rule should have been to win and come home.

As far as torture goes, if those creeps in turbins would stop bombing everything, they would not be tortured for information in the first palce. They got themsleves into that mess. Normally I would not condone torture, but these peope had it coming. After 9/11 I didn't care what we did to them or where or why.

We have our differences Greg, but maybe we are not so different after all. As far as creationism goes, I'll always believe it. There is no place in my heart or life for an imaginary dream like evolution. If you so choose to pursure evolutionary ideas, go for it. But let those of us who choose not to have the freedom to reject those teachings.

Goodbye.

...it must be nice to see the world in black and white...

Ah no, this is not a Poe

The Dispatches from the Culture Wars regularly feature higher profile replicas of yourself, Rumple. Maybe you want to check it out and see more of your kind on parade for us to ridicule. If you're going to complain about anything being at your expense, it should be how much we laugh.

Rumpleforeskin - "Normally I would not condone torture ..."

See, he is starting to sober up already.

Thanks for sharing the video, Greg. As her dad said last night, "If we can't insure our kids, the future is lost."

The fact that I am forced against my will to [pay for something i disagree with is not freedom, it's tyranny.

Git. The fact that you live in a representative democratic republic with an elected body that is authorized by The Constitution to raise and spend money through taxing the citizens is not an example of tyranny. An unelected body that forces you to pay taxes, well, that would be tyranny. Also, moving you about the country because of your race and against your will, selling your property and keeping you in internment camps until they either gas you or the war is over, that is tyranny. Coming into your village, taking your children, cutting their hair, forcing them to speak only English, baptizing them into some foreign religion and teaching them that "Whitesome is Brightsome," now that's tyranny.

Telling you to contribute to promote the general welfare, well that's not tyranny. If your in Wisconsin, stay off the non-toll roads. Don't use the internet. Don't use the telephones for that matter. Don't send your kids to public schools (and don't accept vouchers for private schools, either. Don't vaccinate. Don't fly in planes. Don't call the cops if someone is robbing you.

Don't make me pay for a war against a country that wasn't involved in 9/11. Don't make me pay for torturing or waterboarding suspects who haven't been even granted habeas corpus. Don't make me pay for your sorry ass to drink clean water.

Don't be a fool. If you are going to depend on private insurance, governed by a board you don't even have a voice in electing, don't cry to mama when they deny your claims, or cancel your insurance because all of a sudden you actually need the product you have been paying premiums towards attaining.

As for tort reform, all that is is insurance companies shielding their clients from any sort of responsibility for neglect. In Ohio, which instituted tort reform the premiums have not dropped they have gone up. The same thing has happened in Michigan. It's not a solution to the cost of insurance.

Greg, why are you so angry?

Read the blog for a while. Greg has massive emotional issues. But, hey, he's out there kicking asses and slamming bitches (real classy there) for the Manifesto Of... something or other. It's entertaining as hell. He's the Napoleon Dynamite of ScienceBlogs. Funny, but at the end of the day, overrated and pointless.

@Greg: Are you good with a bo staff?

I like some of what I am reading about the health care plans in the Netherlands. Private for short term care and public for long term, roughly speaking. The Swiss also have a good sounding mix of public and private. It doesn't *have* to be 100% public.

Ligar, I don't know what a bo staff is, but I did just take a look at the 23 comments you have left on this blog under about 16 different sockpuppet names (Quiet Desperation, Eee, Vince Asuka, Triple A, Xct, Wing, Wister, Bink, Quincy, Rossi, and so on) and almost nothing you've said has been worthwhile reading. Can you start to do better, please?

"Why don't you trust Obama? He is far, far more trustworthy than most people we've ever had as president in recent history!"

I don't know about President Obama being more trustworthy than his predecessors. Anybody looks good next to Dubya, who might bump Buchanan and Harding up on the list of historical rankings for U.S. Presidents.

The White House should have pressed for single-payer with House and Senate majorities, and Rham may have sold the public option down the river. When you add this to the renewed commitment to Afghanistan, lack of true financial reform, and lack of action on Don't Ask Don't Tell I'm really beginning to fear that the dude who took office isn't as remotely progressive as the dude I voted for.

Thank the cosmos for the renegade House progressives and the AFL-CIO.

With you on that one, Stellar. I was eavesdropping on a conversation last night and one person said that "Obama is the most socialist president we've ever had!" It's a good thing I wasn't eating anything or I would have choked.

Like Clinton, he is accused of being a leftist, but his Administration is full of DLC types. Nice if his conservative opponents had a clue, but I am not all that hopeful they will ever be able to buy one.

I told the guy, "If you think that Obama is too liberal, as a progressive liberal."

Greg -

The Ligar is referring to a "bo". It may be called a "bo staff" in some martial art, but not in any that I know of. It's a hardwood stick, used to practice movements and can be used to beat the crap out of people. It's his way of passing along a veiled threat. Consider the source.

I didn't know Minnesota had libertarians!

It's embarrassing how people just parrot Rush Limbaugh. When I left Arizona for the other side of the planet it was about 15 years before I'd return for a business trip to New York. I watched the news - or what passes for the news, and I go "hey, buddy - when did the commies take over - this shit is worse than Pravda". The news was nothing like what we called news in 1988 but I guess the changes were gradual because everyone thought the bullshit was normal. Like Rumplestilskin I'd been away so long the world was alien to me.

John, not a threat. An inability or unwillingness to recognize that "kicking ass" and "slamming" are terms of argument rather than physical violence. Maybe even projection.

"I sort of understand. Except one thing. Under Obamacare You will be getting health coverage using MY paycheck money which makes that a privildege as well. Being forced against my will to pay for something that I do not want is very unconstitutional."

Isn't that the way insurance is run now? You all pay in, and the payouts come to those who need it? Health insurance is ALWAYS you paying for someone else's health care.

Greg, I have to agree. Most of what I see from the right is a lot of knee jerk reactionary behavior, and I haven't heard any rational discussion of why this is a "bad thing".

I also have to laugh, most of the right wingers I know have had government jobs, collect social security, and have medicare. Yet they're against all sorts of socialist government handouts. They feel, for some reason, that they've EARNED their benefits, while everyone else is just sitting back on their arses collecting entitlements.

Speaking as a Brit, I only wish that people like Rumpleforeskin understood what a fucking stain they are on the image of America abroad.

Seriously, the reputation of the US is taking a hammering around the world because of pricks like this guy: every day the impression is cemented a little further that the States is full of ignorant thugs and selfish bigots... when the truth is that it isn't at all.

I wish that America didn't labour under its bizarre cultural proscription on "being uncivil": most other places this kind of mean-spirited conspiratorial bullshit would suffer a sledge-hammer assault of ridicule from the outset, but somehow calling someone a know-nothing jerk is grounds for complaints by same that they are being "censored" in the States.

"The fact that I am forced against my will to pay for something i disagree with is not freedom, it's tyranny."

Ah. I heard the USA are known as "the land of freedom". So I take it that, a few years ago, all US citizens received a letter mailed from Wahington, DC. In it was a short questionnaire: "I'm going to invade Iraq. Are you supporting me in this? Please tick the box: Yes/No. (If "no", no money from your taxes will be used). Thanks! GWB".

Oh? You don't remember that letter? You never received it? Hey, what do I know, I'm European. But still, I'm surprised...

It's his way of passing along a veiled threat. Consider the source.

No, it was just a silly reference from the aforementioned movie. I just love the thought of the little emotional cripple feverishly checking his IP logs. He seems angrier now than under Bush. I can't wait for the final meltdown, and wonder what political event will trigger it.

It's not a veiled threat, John and Stephanie -- more like he's calling Greg a harmless nerd that's posturing. Napolean Dynamite is pretty well all about that -- in one scene he proclaims that "[t]his one gang kept wanting me to join 'cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff."

Worth watching, but not for the reasons that Ligar (should be "Lyger" -- which is a hybrid of a lion and a tiger that has magical powers, in Dungeons and Dragons, and is also referenced in the movie) implies. More for the "heh, I knew a guy like that / was that guy" laughs.

"I sort of understand. Except one thing. Under Obamacare You will be getting health coverage using MY paycheck money which makes that a privildege as well. Being forced against my will to pay for something that I do not want is very unconstitutional."

Under StatusQuoCare, people are getting health coverage using OUR paycheck money as the hospitals, doctors, and clinic charge off the extra expenses of the uninsured to the ones who can pay. There's some commynizm right there: To each according to need, and from each according to ability. Or maybe it is plutarchic: it is designed by wealthy insurance companies and disproportionally bankrupts those without the ability to pay and ensures a cheap labor supply for the wealthy. Lose your paycheck and you are hosed.

It would be far more constitutional to legislate a system that costs less per capita and covers more people per capita.

(Greg, I feel your rage, But...

As a favor to this timid reader, please focus on the stupid dittohead idiocy rather than the imagery of slamming ugly dog-bitch muzzles.)

I can't wait for the final meltdown

That's because you're a nasty little prick who delights in unhappiness.

Some liberals would have just had the Black Panthers maul the woman in the parking lot (like they did in the election)...

Holy crap, really? Citations please, this is something I've never heard about. Prolly cause I watch MSNBC.

No seriously, you can't just throw out something like that without documentation, so please provide it. Thanks.

The wrinkled tip of somebody's dick said:

Being forced against my will to pay for something that I do not want is very unconstitutional.

Dude, are you honestly that f'ing stupid? I want all the money from the war in Iraq put back into the national coffers. I didn't want the war, so it's unconstitutional to make me pay for it.

You conservatives never seem to realize that you can't have it both ways.

There are two types of people in this country. Leaders and followers. Seems we have a lot of followers commenting on this.

Consider education. We dump a ton of money into the system yet get lackluster results. It's time to understand that some kids can be educated, some can't.

The big question is, what do we do with those who can't be educated? I say dump em' in the ocean.

I feel that in America there should be no socialized services of ANY kind!!!

What on earth is a person of that opinion doing at a State Fair?

Allow me to second Joshua Zelinksy's point @ # 11 about these people having been mislabeled. They're miles away from being real professional astroturfers.

Perhaps the best appellation would be the one I use for anti-choicers: well-meaning dupes of a sinister international conspiracy. (Not so sure these guys are all that well-meaning, but at least they challenge the stereotype of boringly-nice Minnesotans.)

What on earth is a person of that opinion doing at a State Fair?

The so called State Fair is not run by the state, but rather, by a private non-profit consortium representing farmers. Shocking,but true.

I found it irritating when I went to a town hall meeting at a public school with police there to protect us, that a few people were complaining about "socialized" medicine with no sense of irony whatsoever. Some people just never think farther than what their Fox News pundit tells them.

@51:

I suspect this is a reference to Ashley Todd, a McCain campaign worker who claimed a (large, black) mugger had carved a "B" on her forehead when he saw her Obama bumper sticker! The hoax unraveled pretty quickly â even Michelle Malkin was skeptical from the start â but there may still be people who believe it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Todd_mugging_hoax

Greg Laden wrote:

The Fist Amendment does not protect you from me.

Yeeikes! I'll be sure never to troll on your blog then! I dread the possibility of subsequent contact between my nose and your fist.

[Ducks and runs]

Chuck Norris does not have First Amendment Rights. He has FIST Amendment Rights!

chuck norris fist ammendment rights: lol.

orac has an article about a paper on cognitive disonance and how people keep believing stupid things. should be required reading for everyone. especially right wingers.

As a child who had a life-threatening heart problem (I had a hole in the septum that separated my ventricles) I can absolutely sympathize.

However, I received the absolute best care possible. I spent roughly a year in the hospital and underwent a major open-heart surgery. Everything was covered.

Why? Because I am a Canadian citizen. Why should this girl be denied coverage while I was allowed to receive it? Ask these 'teabaggers' yourself;
http://912forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=83

And we wonder why nothing gets done in this dismal country. Radicals on both sides spend way to much time and energy watching(see: being misled) by MSNBC and FOX news, who are concerned about their ratings NOT informing the public. Then when they get off the TV they don't do anything but call each other idiots.