"We really have this strong belief [about vaccination]. If it wasn't that strong I would never jeopardize my job, knowing I have five kids, a wife, a mortgage. That's how deeply we feel about this." Orf so say's Christian Gary Cowlay, one of several individuals fired from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia for refusal to get an H1N1 vaccine.
The story is here, and Phil Plait is talking about it here.
Cowlay's statement quoted above is both outrageous and typical. It is outrageous because this is a man insisting that it is OK for him to endanger the lives of the very ill children in this specialized hospital because his beliefs are so strong. And it is typical of many highly (or even moderately) religious people, to think that received knowledge is more important and more valid than scientific knowledge. And I use the word "think" in the most meaningless way possible.
This is not the first time that religion has been recognized as interfering with sanitary practices in a medical setting.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. The union to which some of the fired hospital workers belong is challenging the firing. Perhaps this will go to court and we can settle the issue once and for all.
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Wow unbelievable article!
First off, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Don't try to mire the issue by dragging it in. You want to talk about scientific knowledge? The Goddamn vaccines were never even tested and special legislation was put on the books to ensure that no matter what happened to people receiving it, the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be held liable. Yes these are the same pharmaceutical companies that have shareholders that make billions off of murdering people in the current Iraq/Afghan wars.
So you want to roll up your sleeve to receive a shot from a death merchant who made sure you can't hold him accountable for the effects of a vaccine that has not been properly tested? Wow! Just, wow!
And let's talk about swine flu for a minute. The fear mongering has been proven a bust. It killed less people globally than what typically die of the seasonal flu in the US alone. Did you ever think that over reacting to every flu by giving people mercury and squalene laden shots was actually compromising our overall immunity in the long run than actually protecting us?
And btw, the sort of unethical bad science that has been highlighted by the recent climategate, pales in comparison to the fraud committed by the pharmaceutical companies - yet ANOTHER reason to refuse the shots.
Let's talk about "endangering" children to also muddy the waters. I'm really starting to think this blog is a clearing house for big-business apologies.
Tony, I did not drag religion into this. The people are quoted as saying that it is agains their religions beliefs to get vaccines. If you want religion to not be dragged into this, then please tell the people who are endangering the children at the hospital that they should not do so.
Vaccines are routinely tested and each year the tests from previous years give credence to their safety.
Yes, indeed, wow-just-wow. Death merchants indeed. Right now I have a child in the house who does not happen to have an immune system capable of fighting viruses, Tony. He won't get the H1N1 vaccine because he is not around anyone who has the virus. That's not a very reliable method of keeping the little guy alive during a pandemic but it will have to do. In the mean time, people like you should be rounded up and shot. In the arm. With a vaccine.
It might be time for you to go away. I don't see any of my other commenters playing with you. Perhaps you fail to amuse them. Do you have any redeeming qualities?
Tony, did you bother to read the original story, or did you simply decide to go off on some wild rant because your bored sitting at home all alone? Here, from the original article.
Geez dude, take a pill.
Addressing the numbers that H1N1 kills vs. seasonal flu- seasonal flu is often the final nail in the coffin of people who are otherwise not very healthy and don't have a lot of years left to live. H1N1 kills healthy people who probably wouldn't otherwise die for a very long time. In terms of years of life lost, H1N1 is a lot more deadly than seasonal.
Joel, that's what one man said, yes. The rest of the article is how he is "endangering" children and ignoring the "validity" of science.
The fact is, though his reason is somewhat moronic, and in other cases might have endangered lives, he did in fact make the right choice inadvertently.
I really love how this science blog is full of insulting, abusive, arrogant commentators. You really give science a great name.
Tony, you have it backwards. The best science suggests that flu vaccines are safe and if more people took them there would be less of a problem with the flu. In the context of a children's hospital everyone needs to be vaccinated. The objections you have made to the flu are widely understood to be invalid. Your comments have been very rude and if people react rudely to you then it looks rather foolish of you to tell them that they are not being polite. You should learn to be more respectful of other people in conversations and you need to learn more about the science behind these issues you are so passionate about.
BTW, there were other workers that refused the vaccination and were fired, the media chose to only focus on the "religious" objectors, no doubt to make all objectors look unreasonable and baseless, while obfuscating valid reasons for refusing the vaccines.
Tony, the rest of the article explained the hospital's policy.
As for the hospitality of this science blog, it seems no different than any other blog I've visited. Rants way off subject are met with sarcasm. I learned that years ago after posting a stupid question that was answered with a volley of RTFM!!! I learned to think before posting, ain't no big deal.
I think the problem here is that Tony IS thinking before posting.
Did it ever occur to you that they only treat mindless idiots badly?
I'm going to make this comment from a different perspective than most.
Tony, have you ever seen someone who is recovering from getting H1N1? I have, my mother contracted it nearly a month ago and she is still spending most of her time resting. The current estimate for when she will be fully recovered is late spring.
H1N1 is a rather nasty bug, not only is it a killer of healthy young adults but it also seems to be very good at causing pneumonia. The pattern seems to be: Nasty flu, start recovering, right back to the hospital with severe pneumonia.
As for 'lack of testing', remember that the H1N1 vaccine is pretty much the regular flu shot with a different strain. These are well tested vaccines that have been in widespread use for years.
Please tell me that Tony is a poe. I know there are people out there who actually take those deluded conspiracy theories seriously (far too many of them), but Tony does indeed have all the poe elements - defending a cherished conspiracy theory against science, logic and reason; accusing those who point out his errors as being mean and rude, he's got big pharma in there, mercury and squalene (nice touch, Tony), utter inability to recognize and assess his own confirmation bias and, to top it, throw in some AGW denialism just in case there were any doubts where he's coming from. And not to mention: pretending that he is open-minded, reasonably sceptical and really-on-the-side-of-science (but at the same time emphasizing his distrust of science because ... well, because scientifically informed people don't take his rants seriously).
Alas, I suspect he is no poe.
Okay, Tony, let's take this in pieces for you.
Joel's already addressed this just fine. Nobody dragged religion into it except the people who refused to be vaccinated for religious reasons.
Greg's already addressed the testing. The legislation is there because there is very little profit to be had in flu vaccines. Instead of processing vaccine injury claims through lawsuits, there's a fund set up with a very low threshold of proof required to receive compensation from it. Even with this incentive to report, there are very, very few flu vaccine injuries ever reported.
Did you really combine an ad hominem attack on the vaccine makers with a second-degree guilt-by-association slur? The wars have what exactly to do with whether vaccines are safe and effective?
I got mine Thursday, complete with thimoseral. I turned down the tuna-salad sandwich, though. Too much mercury--and methylmercury at that.
Peak flu season runs for about three months (January through March). This swine flu showed up in April and has done a remarkable amount of spreading and killing considering it's seen very little of the conditions that promote flu transmission. Counting it out now would be like snubbing a swimmer based on their performance in a drought.
I've thought lots of things. I write science fiction, so I'm actually moderately creative. That doesn't mean I think the stuff I make up is true. Writing science fiction also means I pay some attention to the science that surrounds my ideas. In this case, it's important to know that the tiny (truly tiny) amount of mercury that's in only the multi-dose vials of the vaccine--not in the mist or the single-dose stabs--leaves the body quite quickly because it's different than the inorganic mercury found toward the top of the food chain. I also happen to know that my body produces squalene.
Well, you haven't given us a reason yet, but if you're allergic to eggs or have some other medical contraindication, by all means, don't get the shot. Just hope enough people around you do that you don't get sick if you ever congregate with other people.
Now, of course, this isn't a reason any more than the wars are. None of this fraud has to do with the flu shots, so I don't see why I should risk my health to avoid a safe and effective product that lowers the companies' profit margins.
Let's. Let's talk about how a single month of pediatric swine flu deaths beat the average seasonal flu toll. And then let's talk about the apology you owe to Greg and to anyone who might consider looking to you for health advice.
Tony is not a Poe.
Stephanie, a breath taking expose of cognitive dissonance.
You have an excuse for absolutely everything, flying freely above the tree tops of reality.
Yes, shareholders that make a living murdering millions of people world wide and have been proven to have dragged their corrupt socipathic business practices into the pharmaceutical corporations, such as fraudulent and bought off peer reviews of drugs that end up KILLING people, and now excluding their liability for an untested vaccine ... should not be trusted by anyone sane.
There were several other employees that refused the vaccine and were fired, nothing was mentioned about their religion, I suspect, in an obvious attempt to obfuscate more logical reasons for rejecting this vaccine.
The world is run by very bad people. If thousands of years of history or human sociobiology are not enough to convince you of that, your daily experiences with conniving, conspiring, dishonest, selfish, greedy people should. By the time people are running governments, multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical corporations or defense contractors, these unsavory and irritable traits are magnified into megalomania, genocide, and delusions of grandeur.
The fact that I am arguing with you about the need to be skeptical of those in positions of power almost seems like an exercise in futility. You are either hopelessly naive, or on someone's payroll. I was in the Marines, I watched the unmitigated horror of our "civilized" "democratic" US government in action. It is a rolling mechanism of murder and mayhem for big business that has been rolling for over 100 years.
These corporations are indeed rolled into one another, their CEO's, board of directors, and even private equity firms are all shared in common amongst these elite. Their agenda is singular and believe it or not, admitted in documents found all over their associated think-tank websites! So as cute as you think it is to bring up something you learned in your intro to philosophy class, in reality, they are all guilty by association.
Finally Stephine, as for your asinine squalene comment: Your body also produces feces. If you were to eat your feces you would get sick and die. Likewise, injecting squalene into your body is unnatural and causes adverse effects, most notably an overreaction of your immune system which is why lots of people actually get sick from their vaccine. Mercury is bad for you! Its not a health supplement no matter how many times MSNBC tells you it is.
You may think you know it all, and someday, when you stop taking guided tours through life, and go visit people ravaged by poverty, illness, war, and malaise caused by these wonderful corporations you have entrusted your well-being and future to, you might understand where I'm coming from.
The most likely worst case with the flu vaccine, as with many vaccines, is that it doesn't work. The vast majority of side-effects are more of a nuisance than anything. Life-threatening side-effects are extremely rare and most can be dealt with. Looking at vaccine-related deaths vs disease-related deaths, hey, pump me up with those vaccines!
You can't let morons in health care refuse a vaccine when instructed, regardless of their beliefs. In fact I think it's great that we can weed some imbeciles from the health care system that way. That is especially true when workers are frequently exposed to those diseases. Hell, in some parts of the world you can't even be an elementary school teacher unless you can prove you've had certain vaccines.
Tony, where did I say corporations are good things? I get completely that the world is a dark and brutal place. I also get that if it were entirely that way, we wouldn't have made it this far.
The corporate structure lends itself to abuses. Abuses from the pharmaceutical companies are particularly vile because they hurt the people the industry claims to help. Flu vaccines, however, are not one of those abuses. Vaccines and their prevention of suffering are, in fact, one of the bright points that make this world livable.
As for squalene, the one point of mine that you bothered to address: You make it. You eat it. It's absolutely necessary to you, and the amount of it in the vaccines that have it is minuscule compared to that from any other source you come into contact with. And the immune response you have is in response to the virus. It's far less than the immune response you'd have to the flu and is precisely the point of getting vaccinated.
You've said a few things that are more or less true. You've said a few things that apply to the safety and efficacy of vaccines and the need for vaccinations. What you haven't done at any point here is combine the two.
The ICUs at my very large metropolitan world class hospital has been filled with victims of the H1N1 flu. It is absolutely worse than the seasonal flu. Our hospital has had close to 100% compliance since the vaccine has come out...without question. One unit had the H1N1 sweep through during the summer and caused 3 pneumonias and much of the nursing staff was out for up to two weeks. We had a very difficult time covering shifts, one of the ancillary workers (young) caught it at the same time and died. This was a real wake up call. Not only are we all vaccinated, we all vaccinated our families. We see too many people in the ICUs on ventilators and on Dopamine, epinephrine and norepineprine drips...and the ones who end up in our morgue. Tony, you are just plain stupid. I'm working on the front lines of the infection, your reasoning is so bad, it isn't even wrong!
As with anything, including nuclear power, oil, GMO, and vaccines, these can be either good things, or they can be bad things.
Point is, when the government is sitting there rapping the entire world, murdering literally millions with war, and then they say take this shot, you are absolutely insane not to be at least a little skeptical. Certainly you shouldn't get high and mighty and denounce others who are skeptical. This or AGW, or anything else.
I read this book by John Holdren called Ecoscience, and he is actually talking about secretly sterilizing people through food, water, and vaccines. So while a vaccine should be safe, and good for you, there are people out there conspiring to pervert this technology. John Holdren is also now Obama's Science Adviser.
I'm sure someone has an apology on deck for him next too. He also said we were supposed to all freeze to death, die of a Malthusian disaster, and now finally, drown in the rising oceans. The man is a fraud.
Tony, first off, you're confused on what being skeptical means. Skepticism is requiring evidence in order to believe something. It is not refusing to believe something or to look at the evidence given. "You have an excuse for absolutely everything, flying freely above the tree tops of reality." is not skepticism.
Skepticism would be something more like noting that you say you've read a book by John Holder and that you make some claims about what it says then checking all this out. For example, I see that Holder was one of the authors on this book. I see also that it does talk "about secretly sterilizing people."
However, I also find that the bits to which you refer are available online and were pushed very hard as part of an effort to discredit the Obama administration. This doesn't mean you didn't read the book, of course, but it does make me want to look harder. The pieces of evidence that make me think you most likely didn't read the book is that it's a very dry textbook which almost no one would read for pleasure, that your claims match those next to the selected quotes online, and that if you had read the book, you'd have seen that they are part of a comprehensive list of possible population control measures presented with no endorsement from the authors.
What you're telling me is in the book doesn't match what is in the book, so I don't think you've read it. That's skepticism.
Cool - Greg's got his very own Pet Birther Troll now.
SB really drags in the kooks, eh? And for what it's worth, I don't believe Tony was ever a Marine. Declaring military service is unfortunately a common act of the deluded.
Tony, if you had read the book you refer to, you would know that Ecoscience is widely used textbook that discusses a wide range of approaches to population problems, as do all textbooks addressing similar issues. You would know that the authors do not advocate forced sterilization, secret sterilization, etc. in this book.
For everyone who is not Tony but is alarmed at what Tony has said:
That is from this post by Chris Mooney:
http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/12/hold-off-attacking-holdren/
which is followed up by this one:
http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/07/hold-of-holdren-again/
Um... although I've never put it to a test I don't believe this is true. You might be totally grossed out by it and your gag reflex might make it difficult going, but die? No.
You seem to be saying a lot of wrong things Tony.
mk: Tony may be a stopped clock, but he's sufficiently close to right on that one that I'm gonna have to back him up on it.
There's a lot of bacteria in feces that can do a number on you if they get places they don't belong - it's not guaranteed to kill you (but hell, neither is smallpox), but it's sufficiently likely to do so that there's a good evolutionary reason that we find feces disgusting.
Of course, Tony is wrong on pretty much everything else (Saying the shareholders affect the credibility of a company? Really? The shareholders are one of the few things that don't affect the credibility of a company! All they care about vis a vis the company is that it makes a profit!)
Stephanie, a breath taking expose of cognitive dissonance.
Er, Tony, I don't think that means what you think it means. You are correct that her post was a breathtaking expose of your cognitive dissonance.
Perhaps you were searching for "expository" or "exposition" or something similar?
OK, I know this isn't the most pleasant conversation, but...
@Michael Ralston,
It is my understanding that what you say is certainly true for those who eat others'... um... "stuff." But Tony was talking about eating one's own.
mk: I believe it holds to one's own as well, due to the potential for opportunistic infection by normally-colonic organisms. But this is now getting to be more words than really useful for a topic of low relevance to the point - my fault entirely for the digression.
The hospital's position is that it's policies were not followed by the people fired. They knew what was required to hold a job with the organization, yet they refused to follow them. These are not capricious policies adopted on a whim or as punishment. They were carefully researched and considered before enacted. You can bet the farm that HR and the hospital's lawyers reviewed them for compliance with federal law (because Medicaid and Medicare reimbursement depends on it). No worker in this country has an absolute right to work anywhere. If you follow the policies you usually keep your job. If you can't follow the policies, you need to find another job. Simple as that.
I've been distressed to see how many otherwise-sane people seem to think that H1N1 innoculations are some kind of Bilderberg conspiracy to inject us with mind-controlling mercury. (I'm wondering how much of this is due to the fact that this is the Obama Administration's first innoculations administered.)
Given that the rollout of this vaccine has been so slow and so poorly distributed - Goldman Sachs first, hospitals second - I wonder what possible motive could be attributed to this conspiracy? Health insurers have proven they don't need a ginned-up pandemic to make cash, they just buy more legislators. If pharma manufacturers were going to be profiting, you'd think they'd have rolled out the vaccine a lot more efficiently. I mean, if the vaccine is just some sham, then it should have been fast and easy to produce in quantity.
I've seen lots of people suggest this is a conspiracy, but nobody can tell me why or for what. At least, not that makes any sense.
No, no, Michael.... my fault too. 'Nuff said!
Peace.
@30 ... Some large chip-makers were also sent vaccine for their workers.
As with Goldman Sachs, the vaccines were to be used on pregnant employees,those with auto-immune diseases,etc.
I think it is great that large corporations get the vax, as a way to distribute it to workers, when it is plentiful. I do wonder if this is how that screw-up started out.
Tony: Have you seen this:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/the_corporation_one_of_the_be…
I thought the US was pressured by crazies into NOT using squalene in vaccines? Since Tony is pretending to be a Marine, I assume he is talking about US vaccines. I had a series of exchanges with someone local about vaccines and you can't really educate these morons. I quit trying when I found he was getting his information off the Generation Rescue site. As I suggested in response to an article about nurses not wanting a flu shot in our local hospital, if you don't like or understand science, go into a different profession, like church work or politics.
Squalene is not used in US vaccines. Tony may or may not be a marine but you may be making an incorrect assumption that he is commenting from the US.
As I suggested in response to an article about nurses not wanting a flu shot in our local hospital, if you don't like or understand science, go into a different profession, like church work or politics.
Posted by: jolly | December 6, 2009 12:09 PM
Hear, hear!
If Tony isn't a PoE, then he's just a PoS.
Sorry but that's the only useful comment I have to add to this conversation. Arguing with someone who conflates the war in Afghanistan with vaccination is at best an act of post-modern performance art.
Here's a news piece from from 2001: Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia and the Northern Alliance opposition have agreed to a cease-fire to allow the World Health Organization (WHO) and UNICEF carry out an immunization campaign against polio beginning today, the United Nations said yesterday.
In other words, even the bat-shit crazy insane violent religious zealot tyrant sociopath terrorists are smarter than Tony.
Sorry for perpetuating that digression, MK and MR, but eating one's own feces can in fact kill you. Our waste removal system is very good at protecting us from what is in our waste. There are a lot of bacteria cells in the food we eat without sufficient numbers to hurt us - once in the bowels however, where there is a great medium for some bacteria to reproduce in, as well as time to reproduce...That is why it is critically important to wash your hands after you poo. Once in the bowels, it would have to be a pretty powerful critter indeed, to work it's way into the rest of your body. But once it is out - watch out...
I would pile on Tony and his ignorant and deadly fucking bullshit, but alas, there is little to add. One of the sad things about coming late to the party here, you just miss out on the best part.
All I can really say, is stay the fuck away from me and mine. My grandmother, who I see fairly regular like - whenever she needs something done on her house, is unable to get vaccinated. And it is very unlikely that if she were to get H1N1, she would survive. Yes, she has lived a rather long life. Yes, we accept that she is not going to be around all that much longer. But our general preference as a family would be to see her die in relative comfort, not hacking and wheezing, lungs filling with fluid while her organs are slowly and painfully shutting down.
And understanding that vaccines don't always offer adequate protection - that sometimes people just don't develop the antibodies, I would like to avoid testing how well it worked on my soon to be two year old, thank you very much. Nor do I want to risk being a carrier, because the antibodies didn't develop in me, or my son or my parents.
I am around too many people who are particularly at risk with H1N1 to have anything but the utmost fucking contempt for fucking scumsucking shitheads who don't get vaccinated when they can. Stay the fuck out the everyone else's way.
Merchant of death indeed.
ummm, Tony, you're wrong. Eating your feces will NOT kill you. As a matter of fact, there are some very good medical reasons to refed a person their own fecal matter through an NG tube. I've done it before. Check your GI specialists.
Thank you Tony! I do not know one person who received this dreadful "vaccine" and did not become very ill. Most of them then gave their housemates what doctors described as a likely case of H1N1 (likely because they don't TEST anymore.)
Good work Tony for challenging this ridiculous "reporting."
As said earlier Emi, I got mine shot Thursday. My arm was a little sore the next day, but I haven't gotten sick. No one I know who's gotten the vaccine has gotten sick, although a number of unvaccinated friends have and have been miserable. Luckily, none of them have had major complications. That makes your friends experience unlikely enough to be very notable. Did they go to the press over this? Any reports you can link to?
Jeb, do you have some citations for those numbers and for the claims about what's in the vaccines? They don't match the published data.
Stephanie, Jeb's comment was over the top misinformation laid out in a very believable looking format ... the kind of thing people will find on google, get an idea from, and never sde the source where it is debunked. So I removed it. I don't like removing comments, but this was clearly exploitation by a vax denialist activist semi-pro and such destructive and dangerous activities will not be tolerated here. I contacted Jeb and told himi it this was over the top and not allowed, and that his comment will some day be back as part of a post I'll write which will probably make him forget having ever heard of this blog.
It should be interesting to see what happens if the fired employees challenge the hospital's action under the Conscience Clauses (Church Amendments 42 U.S.C. 300aâ7). After all section III clearly states (emphasis mine):
III. Prohibits any entity which receives federal grants/contracts from discriminating (in employment, promotion, termination of employment, or the extension of staff or other privileges) against any physician or other health care personnel âbecause he refused to perform or assist in the performance of any lawful health service or research activity or activity on the grounds that his performance of such service or activity would be contrary to his religious beliefs or moral convictions, or because of his religious beliefs or moral convictions respecting any such service or activity.ââ
I'm neither religious nor an apologist for religion, but merely in the interest of noting the phenomenon, there's one thing that confuses the hell out of me: When did people start getting the idea that Christians aren't supposed to receive vaccines? I grew up among more or less observant Catholic and Protestant Christians, and can't remember ever hearing of anyone refusing vaccines for religious reasons.
Of course, most pastors back then had probably done funeral services for children who died of diphtheria or whooping cough, and prayed with families who had a kid paralyzed in the polio ward. And many people in my parents' generation knew what it was like to attend the funeral of a little brother or sister -- and were certainly not willing to risk their own children that way. A priest or minister who railed against vaccines from the pulpit would probably have found himself besieged by irate parents in one hell of a hurry.
So what's changed? Has this kind of idiocy been going on all the while under the radar, or are more and more religious leaders now obtaining their credentials from the Seminary of St. Loony Up The Cream Bun and Jam?
Uh, ok, so first you say I'm not a Marine, because rule one when you don't have an argument against someone is to tear down their credibility and attack them personally. Face to face I think you would think twice about that.
Secondly, vaccines are not all in their own bad. But when your current White House science adviser wrote a 1,100 page book about forced abortions and sterilizing people through the water, food, and vaccines, I think I have a right to be skeptical.
My personal experiences with vaccines were: when I was in the Marines I took frequent flu vaccines. I also ended up in the hospital twice. Since then, I have not been sick once in the last 10 years. Your dying children and grandparents would be quite safe if I came into the house, safer than you - because I eat organic food, drink pure water, exercise daily and get plenty of sleep. The best prevention is a strong immune system apparently.
As for my correlation between the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the vaccine, I'm merely pointing out that the same people that lied to us and are perpetuating these murderous campaigns are the same ones telling us to roll up our sleeves - are the same ones that had their Science advisers (Bush's science adviser co-authored Ecoscience with Holdren who is Obama's adviser) calling for secretly spiking the vaccines.
So really, believe in whatever you want, but quit forcing your unfounded and somewhat naive and trusting convictions onto others just because you are a coward and afraid of the world around you. If you think tyranny is safer, please take a boat to Cuba, or even, build a compound perhaps?
Uh, ok, so first you say I'm not a Marine,
That didn't happen
But when your current White House science adviser wrote a 1,100 page book about forced abortions and sterilizing people through the water, food, and vaccines,
That didn't happen.
My personal experiences with vaccines were: when I was in the Marines I took frequent flu vaccines. I also ended up in the hospital twice. Since then, I have not been sick once in the last 10 years.
This is not science, Marine. I'd rather trust the science. You do realize, yes, that the epidemiological environment of being in a military unit is fundementally different than being in the general population? Did they not tell you this? Could you not figure this out?
Your dying children and grandparents would be quite safe if I came into the house, safer than you - because I eat organic food, drink pure water, exercise daily and get plenty of sleep.
Hey Marine. If you sauntered into my house with a chance of having H1N1 and told me tahat my 12 day old baby will be safe because you eat organic food, I would rip your fucking Marine arm out of its socket and shove it so far up your goddamn Marine ass that you'd have to take your hat off every time you wanted to gaze at your fucking Marine tatoo. Do you understand what I'm saying? What I'm saying, Marine, is there is a limit. A limit beyond which your stupidity may well cause someone to have to stop you in a manner that you might not appreciate from doing something utterly stupid.
As for my correlation between the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the vaccine, I'm merely pointing out
No, the point is that you are a paranoid ass. I'm so hoping that you are not in charge of anything, Marine.
So really, believe in whatever you want,
Not acceptable. Remember. Arm. Up the ass. Stupidity can do harm, especailly your kind, Marine.
Any questions?
"If you were to eat your feces you would get sick and die..."
So, the 2girls1cup video was a snuff film? Or maybe the contents of the cup belonged to someone else and that's okay.
Who is this fake Jeb, and what did he say?
He is a trickster.
Ok Laden, you're void. Nice compilation of irrational, offensive, unfounded, and unsubstantiated attacks. You're degeneration into a frothing mad "typist," because again, I find your types to be much more "reasonable" face to face prove that you are incapable of real debate.
Yes, I have read the ENTIRE book by John Holdren, before passing it on to a friend who is making copies and planning to have it "re-published" with a more appropriate forward and translated into both Chinese and Thai.
In it, he most certainly talks about the need for a global government that will force abortions, give out licenses to have children and sterilize people through the water, food, and vaccines. So now, you are just outright lying. READ THE BOOK.
The cat is out of the bag. I don't care how uncomfortable the truth makes you feel, more people are waking up than hiding behind cognitive dissonance like yourself. I don't care about your threats, they and you mean nothing to me - besides highlighting how primal and immature even a "scientist" can get.
Now you know how it feels to be called out for what you are actually doing. Vaccine denialism is not without cost. You deny, everyone else pays the cost.
What I find truly astonishing, and what makes me question your motivations as well as your sanity, is the fact that Holden's perspective is very similar to yours, as per your post on the other thread. Were you aware of that? Have you actualyl read this material you claim to know? Other work by Holden? No, you do not and you have not, because had you, you could not possibly hold this position.
It is my belief, a guess really, but I'd put money on it, that you work for a major international corporation that wants to squash efforts to curtail global warming for purely selfish financial resons, and the Vax thing is your own little ditty you've got going on the side.
Now go back to your cubicle and eat your donut.
Ok Greg, guess what, and here's what really sucks for you. I am not working for anyone. You can believe that or not, but ask yourself "what if you're wrong?"
Holdren is an absolute raving lunatic, I have not read anything of his in its entirety beyond Ecoscience, what I read in Ecosceince is irrevocable insanity. I have read excerpts of his, stating that we are heading to a man-made ice age, and now of course, he is a champion for global warming.
If I was working for a corporation trying to "squash" efforts to act on global warming, why am I calling for the end of big-oil's monopoly, and the institution of educational reform so that we can all become designers and problem solvers (please go check out Neil Gershenfeld's work) instead of livestock consumers? Why am I calling for people to become independent, self-sufficient ... how does that benefit big business? If anything, that, coupled with technology, makes them extinct. Not today, not tomorrow, but eventually its going to happen.
What you don't seem to acknowledge is that Coppenhagen is being run by parasites for parasites. Whether or not AGW is real, they have no intention of addressing it, just exploiting it. We need real action, grassroots action. My self-sufficient estate is my effort to lead by example. Not a penny goes to big oil, and I boycott ALL mass produced, free-trade products. I buy only local.
I don't expect others to go this far, or so radically, but even a little, over time, would be a good start in the right direction - and it would be a hell of a lot more constructive than cobbling together a global government and paying global taxes to conniving politicians.
And what you don't get about vaccines is that if I trusted my government, I would take them. Its not paranoia to not trust a government that just murdered over a million people in a war they started based on lies, for profit no less!!! I'm sorry Greg, I won't go as far as saying you're a paid shill, or even a bad person, but I think you have a lot to realize about evil in this world. See a six year old kid split down the middle by a US bomb and then watch Bush joke about how he couldn't find WMD, and you might think twice before rolling up your sleeves too.
Greg, did you read Ecoscience?
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=98156598
Of course this is the most painful way to read it, if you get a chance to find a pdf version or hard copy, you will have a much better time of it.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7jjp9bv0qNYC&dq=no+growth+society&pr…
The title of the book? "The No Growth Society" for Christ's sake!
Here is John P. (for prophet apparently) Holdren's predictions about the consequences of a 280 million US population by 2040 - just in case you had any doubts he has no idea what he's talking about and he is a dealer in junk science. (Current US populaton 300+ million, and plenty room for more.)
Honestly though, people should give thought about overpopulation. Without a balanced and proactive approach at keeping technology, education and infrastructure in line with population growth, disaster can and does happen. But Holdren is an alarmist. He's good to keep around as a measure of the very extreme end of the spectrum, but not to be put in charge of anything.
So yeah, with someone like him in office, and now he has an opportunity to give the entire globe a jab of one of his junk shots, I am suspicious. I won't come over to your house Greg, and if I do, I will buy your grandma an O2 tent and I'll wear a level 4 suit, but I'm not taking a shot from these people.
For those interested (not Tony) in John Holdren's positions on any of numerous issues, you can check out this handy dandy compilation from the Belfer Center (where I formerly worked, BTW):
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/experts/140/john_p_holdren.html?pag…
Apropos the present discussion, especially this bit:
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/experts/140/john_p_holdren.html?gro…
and here is his CV:
http://www.whrc.org/about_us/whos_who/cv/jholdren.htm
Or use any of the other wonderful research tools available such as libraries and stuff. The link Tony gave to the textbook, which is a lousy source for any of this, does not provide access to the appropriate chapters and I'm not sure it is entirely legal anyway. But if you type "John Holdren Nazi Hitler Obama Kenya Eleventy111!!11 OMG" into google you can get the quote mined and adapted version from any of several different right wing or libertarian extremist web sites.
Tony, I'm pretty sure, is irredeemable.
Are we there yet? to getting this country in the right direction? Lets pray for our creator to guide us in these difficult times.
Sorry, that link was only a preview, it cuts you off after a page or two, if you need a better teaser until you find the actual book ...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-science-advisor-called-for-planetary-…
And you're right Greg, a lot of what Holdren says does sound like what I'm saying as I read "No-Growth Society" and like Karl Marx's writings, I agree with a lot of it, its his implementation that scares me - just like Communism.
Bullshit. I have received the vaccine and so have all of my fellow workers. No one has become very ill. The effect at most has been a sore injection site and feeling a bit out of sorts for a day.
Bullshit. The injected vaccine is a killed virus. It can not transmit H1N1.
The hell with both of you idiots.
Oooohhhh ok the Belfer Center. So the paid shill isn't actually me, it is actually YOU!!! Lol Greg, and you are shameless too!!! trying to paint me out as the corporate lapdog!!! I really hope they are paying you, if not at least they should award you as "Useful Idiot of the Century."
Graham Tillett Allison, is also a consultant to the military industrial war mongering think-tank the RAND corporation, member of the Council on Foreign Relations (the makers of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran coming to a war theater near you), Brookings Institution also proponents for the coming invasion of Iran (they are currently trying to get Iran to shoot first by employing Specops and funding Sunni terrorists) ANNNNNDDDD a member of the globalist corporate fascist Trilateral Commission.
Lol ok Greg. I'm sorry for wasting your time, wow, Belfer Center, wow that explains a lot. For the rest of you, please go look up the above mentioned book "Ecoscience" and learn for yourself - don't take my or Greg here's word for it. Also do yourself a favor and look up the Belfer Center, RAND Corporation, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Ford Foundation etc. etc. etc. this is the global corporate fascist government!
Don't take my word for it, in fact, I want you to try and disprove this, I wish it wasn't real. Infowars.com is a good place to start. Stick with it just for one week and your eyes will be opened forever to the fraud that is globalization.
Wow, Greg, hopefully your readers already drank enough kool-aid to miss you shooting your foot off! Ok, I'm out.
God/Science Bless, hope you wake up someday to what you're a part of, like I did when I was in the Marines. Peace!
Ooohhhhh Jesus!!! John Holdren even worked there!!! Guess that explains your hard-on for him too. Guess who else advises and/or worked there?
Nathanial Rothschild (of globalist banking cartel fame wtf does that have to do with science Greg?)
Robert Blackwill NSC Deputy during the Iraq invasion!
Paul Volcker of the fiat currency printing, trillion dollar defrauding Federal (private) Reserve !!! What's defrauding the nation of trillions have to do with science Greg?
James Rodney Schlesinger former Secretary of Defense & director of the CIA under Nixon (would make sense to have him on board for nuclear arms reduction studies.)
Point here... for everyone but Greg, who I'm sure already shamelessly knows, these people represent government and big money and they are the ones pushing all of this bullshit policy, perverting environmentalism and yes! even vaccines that should otherwise be a benefit to a civilized society....
How are vaccines, AGW, and the war in Iraq all related? The same fuckers are sitting in on all three debates driving the policy!!!! Belfer Center!!!
P.S. Belfer Center is named after Robert Belfer: Of Belco Oil and Enron fame.
2 things :
If this chap was forced to have this vaccination, that should be illegal.It certainly isnt the rule in the australian health industry(with the exception of Queensland afaik).
I dont see the point in vaccinating health workers just because they're health workers, you're not going to achieve herd immunity anyway, so at this point, with this low mortality/morbidity, I dont think it is indicated or justifiable to have mandatory vaccination for healthy people without risk factors( e.g. pregnant women).
One is constrained to point out that this (possibly apart from the pure water thing) does not seem to have done much good for Europeans during the Black Death.
Quelle surprise!
Rorschach: That is wrong. For instance, we were at the maternity unit of the hospital for three days with a baby with no immunity against a virus. The fact that everyone who worked there had been immunized against the seasonal flu and H1N1 meant that none of those people walking around and breathing our air would be transmitting these particular airborne diseases. That is not the same thing as herd immunity. That is rather more like wearing latex gloves before sticking your hands into someone's abdomen, or whatever.
Just so everyone on this thread knows: Tony is creeping back and forth across more than one thread, and is referring above to this comment of mine:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/12/nature_on_climate_gate.php#c2…
which explains quite a bit about Tony.
Rorschach -
I dont see the point in vaccinating health workers just because they're health workers, you're not going to achieve herd immunity anyway, so at this point, with this low mortality/morbidity, I dont think it is indicated or justifiable to have mandatory vaccination for healthy people without risk factors( e.g. pregnant women).
Because they are more likely than most anyone else to come into contact with H1N1 and pass it along. Not only would they be passing it along to the general population, they would be passing it along to other patients - people who are more at risk than healthy populations.
Tony -
So really, believe in whatever you want, but quit forcing your unfounded and somewhat naive and trusting convictions onto others just because you are a coward and afraid of the world around you.
Unfounded my ass. You are the one ignoring the evidence, ignoring the science of disease. You are the coward, who is afraid of the world around him - paranoid, delusional, believing there is some great conspiracy based on the "evidence" mined from text book that talks about hypothetical scenarios.
I missed a whiny-ass anti-vaxxer AGW denialist moran?
Shit. I wanted to verbally rip them a new anus.
Oh, and they're a conspiracy theorist too.
I suppose they've never heard of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'.
Just so everyone knows, Greg worked for the Belfer Center, which is named after an oil tycoon and run by corporate fascists.
[ADDED BY GREG: Greg had a temp job doing photocopy work for four or five days at the Belfer center. ]
The director has ties with the war mongering RAND Corporation, Trilateral Commission, CFR, Brookings Institute, and some how Greg thinks that will have no influence over the mission and work of the center!!! Robert Zoellick is an honorary member!!! How cute!!!
I am sure there are special interests out there literally denying AGW on someone's payroll - like Fox News, but there is most definitely corporate shills working you leftists as well - Greg Laden is one of them. You owe it to yourselves to look up the Belfer Center and see what sort of people he has been consorting with - and reconsider the hands you have put the AGW debate in.
Go ahead and censor my comments Greg, all you're doing here is proving my point. I'm directing all that love freedom and truth to your site so they can see a living example of a corporate fascist shill. The topic has been ethics - and you yourself have none.
Still... peace.
Well Greg, you said you worked there. I've picked up a knocked over bag of cheese doodles in 7/11 and I don't put that on my resume.
ETHICS!!!
[ADDED BY GREG: Tony, I find it hard to believe that you think it is OK to hang around here and make obnoxious unfounded accusations, one after another. What do you do when you go to someone's house, say, for dinner?
A casual mention that I worked there is not a line on my c.v. If you look at my c.v., Belfer is not mentioned. My overall time at the KSG is listed as a single item, IIRC.
What we have here is quite different. What we have here, seriously, is this: You saw a connection between me and Belfer, which consisted of nothing other than a casual mention on my part that I worked there. From this you very explicitly and plainly drew several conclusions and stated them loudly in several comments. Among these conclusions: That I was on the payroll of various organizations, that I hung around with specific individuals that you name and link to nefarious activities, that I currently work for the Belfer center, that my objectivity is compromised because of the Belfer connection, and so on and so forth.
Tony. Listen. Seriously. Do you realize that you have demonstrated that you are affected by a mental disorder? I can't be sure, but unless this is all some sort of sick joke, you are delusional and paranoid, and these states of being are probably linked to a serious mental disorder. I am not joking. If you do not know this about yourself, you need to seek help. Seriously. People around you, people you know and love, may actually be in danger.
Go get help, Tony.
Now, on a less serious note: My involvement with Belfer was nothing. But I did work for the Japanese Corporate Associates Program, which linked Japanese corporate research dollars to specific research projects carried out at KSG and also had a link to NBER. I was personally responsible at my end for the delivery of NBER materials to various Japanese corporations. Also, I managed the funding internal to KSG for a period of time. This whole cap and trade thing, and carbon credits and all that? That research started out as a few grants to junior faculty by JCAP, which I reviewed and approved.
That should give you something to work with for a while. ]
I see Tony hasn't managed to use his intelligence enough to shut up. Although given his intelligence, this should come as no surprise.
What I want to know is which religion prohibits injections. I didn't realise that 2000 year old laws would take such a thing into account.
Thou shalt not inject yourself with dead viruses in order to live longer is certainly not in the bible.
For the record, I'm fully vaccinated - I even have the H1N1 shot - and I'm fine.
Most people who get vaccinated don't have any sort of issues. Whatever side effects there have been have occurred in an inordinately small number of people.
Tony, you're going to have to speak to that fact when you make your claims of a vaccine somehow being from a 'death merchant'.
Tony -
First of all, Greg has repeatedly validated who he is, the positions he holds a host of issues and his integrity. In spite of disagreeing with him sometimes, disagreeing with his communication methods sometimes, there is absolutely no reason whatever to question his honesty.
More importantly, I doubt very much that anyone commenting here or most of his readers are taking his word for any of this. I don't think that vaccines are important because Greg Laden says they are - frankly that would be absurd, considering he is a bioanthropoligist. For the same reason, I don't think that global warming is a serious problem because Greg says it is.
My positions on those issues are the positions that are supported by the best evidence available. Evidence that was developed using the scientific method. I do not accept anecdote and common sense as fodder for reason and rational thinking. Far too often, when a given aspect of the natural world is studied in great detail, the evidence turns out to overturn common sense answers and anecdotes.
You need help. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having neurological issues - I have my own. But left to fester alone, without care, they can lead to bad decisions based on delusions and fantasy. I would suggest you seek counseling and see if you can't manage to straighten some of this out.
Richard Eis -
Christian scientists, for example, do not believe in any medical interventions. They believe that using medicine and doctors implies that their god is not able to heal according to said god's plan. There are also sects that believe using modern medicine implies that the plants and such that their god has provided aren't adequate for healing. Generally at it's heart is the notion that using medicine or modern medicine denotes a lack of faith in god and god's plan.
Then there are people who believe in a new age sort of spirituality that eschews modern medicine as being out of balance with nature. Though they may or may not actually refer to themselves as pagans, they are all pretty much variants of neopaganism or nature worship. There are also people who don't so much buy into the nature worship, but who nonetheless believe that pharmaceuticals cause "bad energy" and the like.
Ayurveda is also a practice that denigrates modern medicine and tends towards a spiritual sort of healing - though it uses plants and minerals to heal. Ayurveda probably stems from Buddhist roots, but fits well with Hinduism and many new age spiritual philosophies.
I think it is important to recognize that the separation of medicine from religion is a relatively recent phenom. Traditionally, in a great many cultures, medicine and/or healing was the purview of religious and spiritual leaders - or members of the priest/ministerial class, who specialized in healing and medicine. A great deal of what we see in CAM today, has roots that are hundreds and even thousands of years old and based in religious traditions.
I would actually make the assumption that most people who seek deferrals from vaccination on religious grounds are some variant of neopaganism or other new age beliefs. I would also tend to think that a lot of people just claim religious grounds because that is what it takes to avoid vaccines. That is not, however, based on anything but my observations of disease clusters and the general antivaxx contingent. As far as I know, there are no mainstream Christian, Muslim or Jewish sects that reject vaccines, besides the Christian scientists, some Mennonites and some of the Amish.
Greg, what we really have here, is the fact that I have tried to point out connections between big business and the AGW agenda, of which John Holdren is a part of. I have no doubt that there is big business behind anti-AGW, I have researched that as well - I don't think you or your readers are ready for what that actually means.
You "causally" say you worked at the Belfer Center while referencing it as a means of validating John Holdren's stance on issues - as if five days of photocopying and not even knowing who the center is named after is enough to make it a valid reference... [GL: Nice example of delusional thinking. A casual mention construed to be associated with an extensive web of meanings.]
I am pointing out that the Belfer Center is loaded with corporate fascists and bankers, and compromises your defense of John Holdren, his work, and your faith in the AGW propaganda he and the Center promotes.
All the while your defense consists of back peddling, personal attacks, your own brand of paranoia and obfuscating the issues by inferring I am now mentally ill [GL: Great example of projection and displacement]
- ill because I didn't retroactively erase my comments after reading your explanation. What if I said I worked for Exxon, [GL which is funny because while GL critiques big business, he also blogs in cooperation with Shell, a Sb sponsor, and GE] then after your predictable tirade told you I only changed the coffee filters in their office for a week?
I don't think that would make you mentally ill - rather human.
You have even outright lied about the contents of Ecoscience, and several of your readers have suggested that referencing a textbook that brings up difficult subject matter is now called "mining."
You call this a science blog. [GL: Oh, here it comes....] I don't see rational or even mature participants debating here, I see a group of people shoehorning reality into a shape that pleases them and casting people out with a verbal stoning who disagree. Sound familiar? Even without a belief in God you've somehow managed to created your own medieval religion.
Its been fun. Unlike you, my work pass is about to go through and I will have to get back to work. I can't imagine you get much science done, Greg, or anything of any importance if you feel the need to spar with a mentally ill man in your blog, day and night, for the past 2 days.
Still, you're only human. Peace.
[GL: So, that will be all from Tony, right? That sounds a lot like the last post. Good bye Tony! Good bye! We (and Google) will never forget you!]
Du Wayne: denial does eventually transcend into a mental disorder.
Skepticism about a model the size of the planet and the solar system that it interacts with, and faith that big money isn't corrupting the research as it has been proven to have been done in the pharmaceutical industry, even the car industry (woops defective gas tank, oh well, still its cheaper to pay off the families than do a recall) isn't denial.
However, to deny the reality that vast power corrupts when thousands of years of history, sociobiology, and current events proves this, and that people's greed and pride lead to conspiracies and anti-social behavior IS denial.
Denial gave us the Holocaust. Denial gave us Soviet Russia and Maoist China. Power corrupts. Now, somehow, you scientists, who believe in evolution and I assume sociobiology, mean to tell me some aspect of human nature magically changed between Soviet Russia and now, and elitists are now concerned about our health, well-being, and the environment?
Hitler ran his nation into the ground. He didn't seem to care. Sad part is, he didn't do it alone. He had millions of accomplices - including ... scientists who all believed or claimed to believe they were doing it for the good of Germany.
You people are suffering from full spectrum denial. Denial that you are smart enough and know enough to encapsulate a planetary, nay, an interplanetary system well enough to be infallible, denial that the nation, and the coming global government is run by war mongering sadists and sociopaths, denial that science dependent on grants and subsidies is extremely susceptible to manipulation and skepticism is the only way to keep it in check and on and on.
My skepticism is singular - in the government that is handing me the vaccine and pushing the AGW agenda. Yours is multifaceted and expansive covering everything from human nature, to human history.
So according to Tony, the fact that Hitler did so many horrible things proves we can't trust a totally different government, and a totally different set of scientists, to do the right thing, when all the available evidence shows they are, indeed, at least trying to go in the right direction?
I could just as sensibly argue that since Hitler did so many horrible things, with the help of uniformed cops, therefore we can never trust cops to do the right thing, and all police departments should be abolished forthwith.
And did Tony actually mention the Trilateral commission? Are we now seeing the intersection of AGW-denialists, evolution-denialists, anti-vax woo, pro-business ideological crack-whores, AND LaRouchies? The jokes just keep on coming, long after they've ceased to be funny.
And like most other rigid denialists, Tony completely ignores corrective information from people who actually have experience in the fields he's lecturing us about. Yo, Tony, do you really think you're more reliable than an ICU nurse (#18)? Or anyone else who's actually been near someone who actually GOT the H1N1 virus?
You're nothing but an uneducable, insulting, self-important prick.
Wait for it...wait for it...HITLER!!!!
I am quite serious Tony, please get help.
Emi - you don't know me but not only am I feeling perfectly fine after getting my H1N1 this past Friday, I didn't even get any arm soreness from it. I get the regular flu vaccine every year and sometimes am sore for a few days.
If I had kids I'd refuse to have playdates with the kids of parents who don't believe in vaccination. In this age of the internet, there is NO EXCUSE for people being ignorant about the value of vaccines, and refusing to contribute to the critical "herd immunity" in their communities.
DuWayne, I agree with you ... it is serious. I had to take Tony off the tit, though. I'm getting several hundred words an hour of invective ... now it's all about how I went to Harvard and my banning him and annotating his remarks will ruin the reputation of that fine University (which is in turn owned by the Trilateral commission, yada yada yada). We need a new topic.
I think maybe .... Gender balance in science anthologies could be good.
I get your example of the maternity ward, dont want staff there blowing virus particles onto the kids, but I'm sure you've taken your baby home by now, did you enter the Hospital through the main entrance? Did you take bub to the supermarket, show it to friends and family ? I mean, where do you want to stop with the protection from exposure for the 3-6 months until bub's immune system is up to full capacity ?
And they might be vaccinated against a few influenza strain, doesnt protect them from the nurse's enterovirus or ward clerk's EBV infection.
It's actionism, not thoughtful action IMO.
Indeed. However they are very all or nothing examples. A health practitioner wouldn't have lasted long if they didn't approve of any medicines. But being specifically against vaccines is an unusal one for religion.
I agree, I think this is using religion as an excuse.
Hehe...Tony used Hitler. What a lame-ass internet newbie.
I, for one, have been vaccinated against H1N1. Later that day, my family and I went out for dinner at a sushi restaurant where I ate a poorly constructed tuna roll (the nori is supposed to be on the outside of a tekka maki!!!)
I'm feel quite well. Quite, quite well.
Here's what gets me about using religious exemptions to avoid vaccination: it's blasphemy, and anyone who does care about having a faith should resent these types for invoking to God card.
I remember applying to a grad program at a Christian university. They wanted to know what my religious affiliation was, and if it happened to be that of the university, I would need to submit a letter or recommendation from my clergyman. It's too bad we can't check backgrounds for bullshit. Or can we? Invoke rules against perjury?
Sometimes even if you get aware of what you are doing, it is still you may make mistake for your job, but the fact that it happens for a reason that was justified.