When burning woo produces deceptive testimonials

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PZ's muscling in on my territory. Apparently, ruling the Darwinian, creationist-destroying atheist cephalopod blogging world isn't enough, and he has to start moving in on medicine. No problem, given that this time around he brought some rather interesting woo to my attention, suggesting it as perhaps a suitable topic for Your Friday Dose of Woo called God's Answer to Cancer. Besides, it's PZ's birthday; so as a birthday present, instead of reposting the same silly picture that I have for the last two years, I'll simply link to him now and add, oh, perhaps 1% to his traffic total for today, if that. No need to thank me, PZ.

It's some primo, grade-A woo alright, but I'm not so sure it's a good topic for YFDoW for the simple reason that I've become very leery of certain kinds of cancer woo. You see, after once having featured the utter quackery that has claimed lives known as the German New Medicine, I'm a lot less enthusiastic about featuring such utter cancer quackery with the potential to do the same sort of thing. You see, at the time, I had no idea that this quackery had a rather large body count, and, let's face it, that's just not funny. Consequently, burned once, I've become a bit less willing to feature such blatant cancer quackery on YFDoW.

Then, examining God's Answer to Cancer (GAC) more closely, I saw that it is in fact a rather run-of-the-mill quack machine, not unlike Bill Nelson's Electro Physiological Feedback Xrroid (EPFX) machine, about which I've written at least three times (1, 2, 3) or Hulda Clark's parasite zapper--or even Alan Back's Advanced Bio-photon Analyzer, featured here a mere ten days ago. What GAC does have, however, that distinguishes it from similar quack devices is a bizarre mish-mash of Christian and New Age charlatanry that is truly breathtaking. Even so, I might not have decided to write about it, PZ's having had his say, were it not for what I like to call a "teachable moment" in the comments. First, I'll briefly deconstruct the machine itself; then I'll spend much more time on the "teachable moment."

The GAC website begins by blaming all disease on, in essence, original sin and saying that only God can heal. (Of course, that begs the question of why God would need a cheap-looking box of wires and lights in order to heal, but that's just the nasty, doubting skeptic in me speaking.) Thus, we have this explanation:

You may ask "WHY" Members of this Charismatic 'Inter-Faith Church Ministries Inc". are promoting anti cancer and health, and why we use an 'electronic pulse' health invention? Ans.-It is an easy alternative way to kill germs, stop cancer, parasites, fevers, bacteria, asthma, viruses, TB, Chronic fatigue, migraine headaches, dengue fever, Asian flue, malaria, Arthritis pain, Genital Herpes, Infertility, vaginal infections, Colds & Sinus.

Why should a Church not also sponsor Health Clinics?: Why not? - God heals in many ways! He is interested in our health! As a Bible-believing Christian, I believe that our God, who created the heavens and the earth, including the man and woman named Adam and Eve, also created both of them to be in health and free from cancer or any illness, but after they disobeyed God, by eating fruit of the forbidden tree, 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil" they gradually lost their health and eventually died; history reveals however, they and their children and grandchildren still lived hundreds of years, but their descendant's life-spans became shorter and shorter, perhaps because of proliferating disease parasites? Then God said man's "days shall be an hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)

The answer? Do you have to ask? See:

Could it be because we as Clergymen, while rightly directing our primary efforts toward Spiritual matters, have largely ignored or failed to search out and teach the many Scriptures which deal with God's Rules of Life for healthy living, as written and revealed to us for our diet, our lifestyle, and for our health and healing too? Jesus healed the sick. Yes, He said "The works that I do shall ye do also." -and Hebrews 18:8 says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever. God does heal, we ourselves are responsible for what we put into our bodies and for our lifestyle, which may add years (or subtract years.) Our world is now polluted, our food is processed, de-vitalized, and adulterated, to the extent that needed nutrients and minerals are not there, so we overeat trying to satisfy our "hidden hunger" and often we get fat and have high-blood pressure, then when our immune system becomes run down and depleted of energy, we lose our natural defenses against germs and diseases. We can be invaded by parasites, worms, bacteria and viruses or are attacked by various kinds of cancers, which are our own cells becoming malignant. - Why let this happen to you?

Cancer is not truly a disease. A disease is illness which is contagious. You don't "catch" cancer like a cold...you grow it. It is your own body cells which become malignant, set up a colony of like cells which we see as a lump or a sore, and call it "cancer" It actually is just your own cells in run-down condition. If you energize them, your body can heal itself and either restore them, or discard them, and your immune system energy can promote new cell growth!..

Ugh. Regular readers of this will recognize many recurring themes in cancer quackery--indeed, in many other forms of quackery as well. It's all there: the "toxins" that supposedly poison us and cause virtually all disease; the "parasites"; the lack of nutrients to which the answer is often expensive supplements; and the claim that the quack therapy somehow "boosts" the immune system, one of the most--if not the most--meaningless claim common to quacks.

So what's the cure? Well, to GAC one cure is the good, old-fashioned cancer quackery known as Laetrile. The other is a good, old-fashioned quack device (pictured above) called the Bio-Energizing Anti-Cancer Zapping Machine. It's an amazing machine, too, much more amazing than Hulda Clark's zapper, and revealed to Msgr. Dr. Howard E. May Jr. in a divine dream sent to him by God Himself, to boot:

It was then I had a vivid dream directing me to invent this electronic machine, I thought it was only to kill my intestinal worms, but then I was astonished to discover it was also killing my cancer! Now, after years of testing and improvements, I came up with this advanced Alternative Cancer Machine which, because of hearing about Hulda Clark calling her gadget a Zapper, I also initially used the same name, "zapper". for my machine, and called it the Bio-Energizing Zapper, for it "zaps" and kills disease germs. Now, however, I know there is very little similarity between the Clark zapper and my invention which uses a different method of operation and frequencies,. and is thereby far more powerful and effective. A friend commented, "It is very difficult to improve on what God does!" And this is superior to anything on the internet except the copies being made of Dr. Royal Rife's machine which complicated and sell for thousands of dollars..

If you want a cheap zapper, buy it from Hulda Clark. Her zapper is the cheapest, in every way. (Remember you get only what you pay for.) I built one from her book circuit,, based on the circuit she published, and the parts cost me only $2.46 here in Manila...she sells it for over $90!. Wow, what a profit!. You should read the article somebody researched about her claims by entering in your search engine.

I love it when quacks diss each other this way: Her magic cancer zapping machine is quackery; my magic cancer-zapping machine really works! Even better than that, Msgr. May's machine is better than Clark's machine because he's on a mission from God and God Himself told him how to build his magic zapping machine. The good Monsignor's protestations otherwise notwithstanding, there's no doubt that Msgr. May's machine is nothing more than the rankest quackery, based on religious faith-healing, laetrile, Linus Pauling's "orthomolecular" medicine, traditional Chinese medicine and boosting "qi," as well as copious amounts of nonsense about "boosting the immune system."

Now, to the teachable moment.

In the comments, a commenter going by the 'nym gp protested, claiming that a device similar to this was not quackery at all. He referenced Hulda Clark and Royal Rife and presented a testimonial:

The research of Royal Rife is largely obscured in mystery, and very few folks have been able to replicate his results based upon that secrecy. The work of Dr. Bob Beck on the other hand is well documented and with measurable results.

Actually, the reason that no one has been able to replicate the work of Royal Rife is because it's pseudoscientific nonsense. Bob Beck's protocol isn't any better. In essence, it consists of what Beck calls "microcurrent" therapy, and a brief description of it should convince most readers of just what nonsense it is (although I do reserve the right to use it as more blog fodder in the future, as a detailed discussion may be worthwhile; perhaps a general post about a number of these devices):

The Bob Beck Protocol started out as an electromedicine treatment for AIDS / HIV, however, it has turned out to be a superb cancer treatment.

There is certainly no other electromedicine treatment for cancer that is anywhere near as effective as the Bob Beck Protocol. It is far better than any Rife Machine, far better than any Multi-Wave Oscillator (MWO), far better than anything Hulda Clark has out, and so on.

The reason the Bob Beck Protocol is so absolutely superior to other electromedicine treatments is that it is the direct result of an incredible discovery in medicine.

Two medical doctors, Dr. Kaali and Dr. Lyman, discovered, in 1990, that a small electric current could disable microbes from being able to multiply, thus rendering them harmless. It was, in fact, the greatest medical discovery in the history of medicine because virtually all diseases are caused by, or enhanced by, a microbe. Their discovery was a cure for almost every disease known to mankind.

A video can be found here, which postulates something called "blood electrification."

A good rule of thumb, one that I have yet to find to have been wrong, is that, whenever someone says their device or treatment is a "cure for almost every disease known to mankind," it's quackery. Run, don't walk, away from anyone telling you that. Moreover, when someone like Beck tells you that his therapy won't work if you take any other therapy, be it conventional chemotherapy, surgery, and radiation, or even any other "alternative" therapy, that's just icing on the cake for identifying quackery. In any case, that gp believes in Beck's protocol so strongly should tell you what's coming next, namely an anecdote:

With that said, my wife was diagnosed with invasive ductal carcinoma (3.5 cm tumor) last year with metastatic lymph node activity, the lay translation of which is terminal breast cancer that had spread to her lymph nodes.

Although I'm sorry that gp's wife developed breast cancer, having just watched my mother-in-law die of the disease a mere three and a half weeks ago, my personal feelings won't stop me from pointing out the utter ignorance about breast cancer described here. Unless his wife had metastatic disease in distant sites other than the lymph nodes under her arms, she did not have "terminal" breast cancer. In fact, even if a lot of lymph nodes under her arm were positive for metastatic breast cancer, she would not be incurable. Granted, depending on the number of positive lymph nodes, gp's wife could be as high as a stage IIIA or, if the primary tumor was considered inoperable due to extension to the chest wall, stage IIIB, but stage III breast cancer is still potentially curable. As I guide you through the rest of the testimonial, I'll try to fill in what probably really happened based on educated guesses. You will see that what probably happened does not support the efficacy of the quackery pursued. But, before I do, let's look at three questions in reading alt-med cancer testimonials that can, if answered properly, can be indicative that an "alternative" therapy might actually have value. These questions were provided bya retired Australian cancer surgeon named Peter Moran:

  1. Was cancer definitely present, as shown by reliable tests, when treatment was commenced?
  2. Did it go away?  (or clearly respond otherwise, as judged by the same tests)
  3. Was the advocated treatment the only one used ?  (within 2-3 months of the apparent cancer response)

Thus far, the answer to question number one appears to be "yes." However, I would say that Dr. Moran's list is incomplete in that I would add to it: Was sufficient reliable information presented in the testimonial to allow me to do a reasonably accurate staging of the tumor? In other words, if a person giving a testimonial says that the cancer was "incurable" with conventional therapy, was it, in fact, incurable? In this case, we can answer fairly confidently that gp's wife's cancer was not incurable. It is possible, even likely, that it was a fairly nasty tumor (more on that later), but it does not appear to have been stage IV disease, because it's a pretty safe bet that if it were gp would have pointed out that his wife had metastases to lung, liver, bone, or wherever, in order to emphasize the hopelessness of the situation.

Let's continue with gp's testimonial:

I interviewed and met with three separate cancer specialists including the head of oncology for a cancer research center in the top 10 worldwide; the answer to her cancer was an extensive regiment of cytotoxins followed by radiation, despite her heart tests which came back with less than 50% efficiency for her left ventricle.

Whether gp's wife's axillary lymph nodes were positive or not, a 3.5 cm primary tumor would mandate at least some chemotherapy; positive lymph nodes would indicate the need for a longer and more intensive course of chemotherapy. In addition, radiation therapy is standard of care for any form of breast-conserving therapy. As I tell patients, if your breast stays in place, you need radiation, with few exceptions. Without it, the risk of local recurrence can be as high as 30% or slightly more. Of course, as I've pointed out before, this very fact (namely that about 2/3 or more of women who undergo lumpectomy will do fine without radiation) often leads to other testimonials by women who have had a lumpectomy, eschewed radiation in favor of some alternative woo or other, and and then attributed their doing well not to the surgery, but rather to the woo. The same goes for chemotherapy. Remember, surgery is the main curative modality in breast cancer that is curable. Radiation is the icing on the cake that sharply decreases the risk of local recurrence, and chemotherapy reduces the risk of distant recurrence; i.e., recurrence outside of the breast or axillary lymph nodes, such as in the bone, liver, lung, or other organs. Finally, gp's comment about his wife having "less than 50% efficiency" refers to a MUGA scan, which is indicated before the use of Adriamycin-based chemotherapy regimens, which can indeed injure the heart. Radiation to the left breast or chest wall can also "leak" and injure the heart, but the risk is very small with modern techniques of planning and advanced equipment aiming the beam, which now allow for very accurate radiation dosage, with little or no collateral damage. Clearly, Mrs. gp's oncologists thought that her cardiac reserve was adequate to handle it.

gp continues:

I personally challenged each of her oncologists to a simple question and answer session about the mortality rates associated with chemotherapy used in conjunction with radiation; they were only able to cite the statistics published by the American Cancer Society which are now deceptively reported within a 5 year window (if there is no reoccurance of cancer within 5 calendar years, the patient is cured of cancer; if there is a reocurrance after the 5 year window, they are reclassified as a new patient). Her oncologists had not one suggestion for a change in her diet, a change in aerobic activity, or any solution other than the administration of very expensive cytotoxins followed by a 30 day bout of nuclear medicine, to further suppress and completely annihilate her immune system to get the cancer out of her. Napalm for humans.

The reason doctors have no suggestions other than generic suggestions is because there is no evidence that specific dietary interventions can treat an established cancer. There is, of course, that diet can influence our risk for cancer, and there is even weak and controversial evidence that an extremely low fat diet might be able to slow the progression of very early stage prostate cancer with favorable histology, but that is a far cry from treating an established cancer. Moreover, one can't help but note that gp is parroting the usual alt-med tropes about cancer therapy, including the classic "poisoning" and "burning" (although I've never seen anyone refer to it as "napalm for humans" before), in addition to the exaggerated fears of "annihilating" the immune system. In fact, the immune system usually recovers quite well from breast cancer chemotherapy.

As for gp's claim that the American Cancer Society has somehow jiggered its statistics on survival, well, suffice it to say that there's nothing to it. It is true that about five years ago the ACS changed its statistical models for estimating the number of cancer cases and cancer deaths; this was done to reflect more accurately the incidence and number of deaths using the SEER database. It should also be remembered that the ACS state-by-state reporting of cancer incidence and deaths is not intended to estimate how successful treatments are, because it doesn't break the data down stage by stage, treatment by treatment, but rather only by tumor type. Results of randomized clinical trials and other studies looking at stage-by-stage survival rates are required for this purpose, and such studies, I assure gp, do not count recurrences after 5 years in breast cancer as new cancers. Breast cancer is well known as a cancer that has a propensity to recur later than five years, which is why survival rates for breast cancer are often reported as ten year survivals. Indeed, from the landmark clinical trials in the 1970s and 1980s by the NSABP that now have 25 and 30 year survival rates reported.

The story continues:

The cancer research center (Moffitt Research here in Tampa) has a McDonald's in the lobby. I had a Big and Tasty with a large Coke each day while she was in the hospital recovering from the bi-lateral mastectomy.

One can't help but note the irony here that gp, being so concerned with diet to treat his wife's cancer and, presumably, to preserve health, was scarfing down Mickey D's and Coke, much as I, with my crappy eating habits, probably would have done had I found myself in gp's position. Of course, the reason doctors have no suggestions other than generic suggestions is because there is no evidence that specific dietary interventions can treat an established cancer. There is, of course, evidence that diet can influence our risk for cancer, and there is even weak and controversial evidence that an extremely low fat diet might be able to slow the progression of very early stage prostate cancer with favorable histology, but that is a far cry from treating an established cancer. Certainly, there's no evidence that diet and lifestyle alone can treat a cancer as effectively as conventional surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation.

As for gp's claim that the American Cancer Society has somehow jiggered its statistics on breast cancer survival to make them appear better, that's just a load of fetid dingo's kidneys. It is true that about five years ago the ACS changed its statistical models for estimating the number of cancer cases and cancer deaths; this was done to reflect more accurately the incidence and number of deaths using the SEER database. It should also be remembered that the ACS state-by-state reporting of cancer incidence and deaths is not intended to estimate how successful treatments are, because it doesn't break the data down stage by stage, treatment by treatment, but rather only by tumor type. Results of randomized clinical trials and other studies looking at stage-by-stage survival rates are required for this purpose, and such studies, I assure gp (although there's only the proverbial snowball's chance in hell that he'll believe a "tool of big pharma" and a member of the Illuminati, to boot), do not count breast cancer recurrences after 5 years as new cancers. Breast cancer is well known as a cancer that has a propensity to recur later than five years, which is why survival rates for breast cancer are often reported as ten year survivals. Indeed, from the landmark clinical trials in the 1970s and 1980s by the NSABP that now have 25 and 30 year survival rates reported.

The story continues:

The cancer research center (Moffitt Research here in Tampa) has a McDonald's in the lobby. I had a Big and Tasty with a large Coke each day while she was in the hospital recovering from the bi-lateral mastectomy.

From this we learn that gp's wife had a bilateral mastectomy. It is not mentioned whether she also underwent an axillary dissection on the side of the tumor, but presumably she did if she had a positive lymph node there. No competent breast surgeon would be willing to do just a mastectomy under those circumstances without a fight. Here's another reason why I'm pretty convinced that Mrs. gp did not have "incurable disease." If Mrs. gp did have stage IV disease, it is very highly unlikely that any surgeon would want to perform a bilateral mastectomy on her right off the bat. (I know I wouldn't recommend it as the first move.) It is true that there is retrospective, relatively poor quality evidence that removing the primary tumor in patients with metastatic disease can be helpful, but that's only in patients who have stable disease after chemotherapy. Be that as it may, assuming Mrs. pg had a modified radical mastectomy on the side of the tumor (includes the lymph nodes) the answer to Peter's second question is: Yes, the tumor did go away. You can't make a non-stage IV cancer go away any more effectively than to remove both breasts. However, the tumor went away before any alternative therapy was tried, thanks to the fact that nothing heals like surgical steel.

It would be interesting to know whether his wife chose a bilateral mastectomy. Personally, as a breast surgeon, I am very reluctant to perform a mastectomy on the other side unless (1) there is another cancer there (which gp didn't mention; so I presume that there wasn't) or (2) a documented mutation in a gene like BRCA1 that predisposes to hereditary cancer. I admit that these days I'm a bit of a dinosaur that way, because increasingly women are demanding bilateral mastectomies, even though there is no evidence that their routine use improves survival. I blame MRI (to some extent; there are other factors).

But I digress.

That Mrs. gp required a mastectomy implies that her surgeon judged her tumor too large to perform a lumpectomy or partial mastectomy with a decent cosmetic result. Another interesting wrinkle is that these days giving chemotherapy before surgery can often shrink such tumors to the size where lumpectomy is possible, allowing preservation of the breast. However, for this approach to work, the woman has to be willing to undergo both chemotherapy and radiation, and Mrs. gp was unwilling to accept either:

We then opted to decline chemotherapy (you will be dead within a year) as well as decline radiation (seriously, you are really dead within a year now, take the chemo and radiation you crazy person with cancer) and instead began the Beck Protocol based on Dr. Robert Beck's open source schematics (the "quackery" referenced in the previous two posts) which he published in 2002, originally as a way of bulking up the immune system of individuals diagnosed with HIV.

Although I suppose it's possible that his wife's physicians tried to scare her into taking chemotherapy by using phrases such as "you'll be dead in a year," they were at Moffit, and to me that doesn't ring true. You usually won't find academic surgeons and oncologists using such fear-mongering terms, and, in fact, unless cancer is widely metastatic it is unlikely that oncologists would tell a patient that she would probably be "dead within a year" because, quite simply, most breast cancers, even metastatic ones, don't necessarily lead to death within a year. Median survival is in general over a year; so a significant number of women with metastatic breast cancer live longer than a year. Some can even live several years. Also, at the two large academic cancer centers I've worked at, what we would usually say to a patient refusing therapy is that by doing so she is significantly decreasing her chances of beating the disease and is significantly more likely to die from her disease. I've never heard of an academic clinician at a major cancer institute telling a patient like this that she'll be dead within a year. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen (I could be sheltered or just lucky) or that it didn't happen in this case, just that the culture in the cancer centers where I've practiced is not such that using such apocalyptic terms is acceptable, and that's usually not the way academic oncologists talk to patients in my experience.

As for the Beck protocol, gp describes it thusly:

For the ozone generation component we opted for a clinical grade ozone generator and oxygen concentrator purchased from Longevity Resources; cancer itself is an anaerobic function so increasing blood/oxygen saturation is a key component to fighting cancer of any type. Ozone is used primarily in Europe as a disinfectant and has only recently been adopted by U.S. hospitals to disinfect operating rooms, burn units etc.

For the blood electrification equipment we went with a vendor that replicated the work of Dr. Bob Beck's open source schematics and in accordance with the research of Dr. Kaali and Dr. Lyman's report from 1990, which is now the core focus of electroporation equipment (that curiously also uses the same square wave advocated by Rife's research) now approved by the FDA and in clinical trials with cancer research centers here in the U.S. The unit I bought for the blood electrification is non-FDA approved, built to spec as described by Kaali/Lyman/Beck.

For the magnetic coil pulser I ordered a unit from Australia with measurable output according to the Beck Protocol, non FDA approved.

For the silver component we went with 2 gallons of medical grade collodial silver from a supplier here in the U.S. with a lab certified 20 ppm content (Utopia Silver, http://www.utopiasilver.com).

We also used a daily dosage of 60 bitter apricot pits initially (now a 20 pit per day maintenance routine) due to high concentrations of Laetrille/B17 (illegal for resale in the U.S. per the good folks at the FDA).

Great googly-moogly! Talk about a concentrated collection of the worst cancer quackery out there, the Beck protocol has it all! It's all there, even Laetrile, a treatment that was shown over 20 years ago in randomized clinical trials not to work! The wag in me can't resist mentioning that Laetrile has cyanide in it. Talk about poison! Perhaps gp can tell me why poison in Laetrile is good, but any toxicity due to chemotherapy is a horror that will destroy the body's immune system. I guess it must be because Laetrile is "natural," basically being derived from peach pits. Of course, there is one bit of possible non-woo in with all the woo, and that's the electroporation equipment. Electroporation is sometimes used to potentiate DNA vaccines, to increase the uptake into the skeletal muscle cells of the plasmid DNA being used to immunize the patient. It does not surprise me that the device gp picked up is not FDA-approved. As for colloidal silver, apparently gp is unconcerned with the Blue Man syndrome that can occur as a result of its use, more properly known as agyria.

Finally, let me just address the ozone issue. Apparently the idea is to increase the blood saturation of oxygen somehow by increasing the amount of oxygen dissolved in the blood. The problem is that the vast majority of oxygen in the blood is bound to the hemoglobin in the red blood cells. Only a small minority of the oxygen in the blood is dissolved. Moreover, the oxygen binding curve for hemoglobin is saturable; if the hemoglobin is greater than 90% saturated (as it is in most people at sea level or near sea level), it's impossible to increase the oxygen content of the blood by more than a couple of percent by adding more oxygen. Worse, ozone is a very strong oxidant. Did it ever occur to gp that there's a reason it's used as a disinfectant? It kills bacteria, but its oxydizing properties do exactly the same thing to normal cells.

So how did Mrs. gp do? Let's see:

Her initial tumor markers were off the charts in all areas; after three months of treatment and her surgery, she scores 1 out of 40 for her tumor markers - and she refused chemotherapy or radiation.

We use http://www.caprofile.net/ for bi-monthly blood tests that show her progress in terms of her cancer markers and the other empirical indicators of cancer (PHI enzyme levels, hCG levels, etc). We have to pay the $300 for this test out of pocket as insurance will not cover it; the blood tests from her oncologist (covered by insurance and 10X the costs) don't even show the basic levels associated with cancer such as PHI and hCG.

Note what he says: After the surgery. Of course her tumor markers fell. Remove the tumor, and the tumor markers will usually fall.

Now's as good a time as any to answer Peter's third question, and the answer is a resounding "yes." Mrs. gp did receive other therapy. She received the primary therapy for her tumor. In fact she received the most highly aggressive surgical therapy for her tumor possible, short of turning back the clock 50 yeras and doing radical mastectomies. Once again, gp needs to get it through his skull that chemotherapy and radiation in this setting are adjuvant therapies. Surgery is the primary therapy. Back in the "old days" before there were effective adjuvant chemotherapy or radiation therapy regimens, surgery was the only treatment for breast cancer, even relatively advanced tumors. The survival rate wasn't fantastic, but a significant minority of women were cured of their cancers by surgery alone and still are. It is highly probable that gp's wife falls into that category, although, at the risk of being pessimistic, I have to point out that we don't know how far out she is from her surgery. She's still not out of the woods yet by any means. I wish her only the best, but really wish she had increased her odds of overcoming breast cancer by accepting conventional treatment.

Next, there is the issue of all those "tumor markers." The following of tumor markers for breast cancer is a complicated and controversial minefield. In fact, there are a number of tumor markers for breast cancer of wildly varying validity and reliability, the vast majority of which aren't much good. Indeed, breast cancer tumor markers are in general not followed after primary surgery for breast cancer; rather they are sometimes followed in the case of advanced disease. Many oncologists don't follow them at all, thinking them useless. Unfortunately, those of us who take care of breast cancer don't have a marker as reliable as CEA is for colon cancer and would very much love to have one whose high degree of utility is science- and evidence-based. There's a reason why insurance companies don't pay for that many of them, and I can only guess at what other dubious markers gp was paying quacks to measure.

No testimonial, of course, would be complete without an appeal to emotion and conspiracy:

Simple, rational logic dictates that cellular toxins of any sort destroy the body's ability to fight cancer, as does radiation.

Simple, rational logic also dictates that nuclear medicine is proven to cause additional forms of cancer and debilitating diseases, all of which are considered by modern day oncology as "effective" means of combating metastatic cancer which is now at epidemic levels worldwide.

Simple, rational logic says that the body's immune system is the first line of defense against any form of life threatening illness, and bolstering - not destroying - the body's immune system is the most effective way of combating cancer of any sort.

Further, Big Pharma and their minions at the FDA would rather allow corporate profit motives to drive cancer research, while only treating the symptoms of cancer and never the root causes of what causes cancer in the first place.

"Simple, rational logic" is, alas, all too often only the former of the two based on a profound misunderstanding of biology. Sometimes it's neither of the two. It is true that chemotherapy is toxic, but the very reason why it works is because it's more toxic to cancer cells that are rapidly dividing than it is to normal cells. The same thing is true of radiation when administered correctly. Indeed, the concept of "fractionating" radiation (i.e., giving it in small daily doses over 30 or so fractions, which is what is done with breast cancer) is predicated on the fact that normal cells can repair their DNA after such low doses but cancer cells can't. The cancer cells thus accumulate damage, while normal cells repair themselves during the "rest" periods. Moreover, although it is true that secondary malignancies are a risk with radiation therapy and chemotherapy, numerous studies have been done on this issue, and it turns out that the risk of these secondary malignancies is far outweighed by the therapeutic benefit of the chemotherapy. The problem with so many mavens of alt-med is that they are like antivaccinationists in that they seem to think that there must be medical interventions with absolutely zero risk. All medical treatment is composed of a risk-benefit analysis. For a disease like cancer, which has the potential to kill, more risks are considered acceptable to wipe it out.

gp's testimonial illustrates very well the inherently deceptive nature of the vast majority of alt-med cancer testimonials. This deception is rarely intentional; rather, far more commonly it is the result of a poor understanding of cancer, how it's treated, its prognosis, and the extreme variability of its course. Indeed, breast cancer is a disease with a particularly variable course, which, when coupled with its high degree of prevalence (it's the most common cancer diagnosed in women), virtually guarantees large numbers of women who are "outliers," doing much better than expected. Some of these women will take alternative medicine and attribute their good fortune to alternative medicine rather than their tumor biology. The reason that these testimonials often sound convincing is that the people listening to them are not physicians and do not know enough about the expected natural course of a specific cancer, how that cancer is normally treated. Another common misunderstanding is what the role of chemotherapy and radiation is for treating solid tumors, for which the primary treatment is almost always surgical and for which surgery can often be curative.

Finally, not how gp claims that "conventional medicine" treats "only the symptoms" of cancer rather than the "root cause." This is a frequently claim made by alt-med advocates not just about cancer but about virtually all human disease. It is also one I consider most ironic, given that scientific medicine actually does try to discover the actual cause of cancer and treat it. It looks at genes, the functions of the proteins they express, and how the environment interacts with them. They study tumor biology and how seemingly "normal" stroma can influence the growth of tumors for good or ill. Science modifies its views in response to new data, observation, and experiments. The contrast with "alternative" medicine could not be more stark, where we false causes of cancer are identified and targeted: Liver flukes causing "all cancer"; vague disorders in unmeasurable "life energy"; unnamed "toxins"; uncharacterized immune system "weakness"; or, my favorite when it comes to inanity, the claim that cancer is not a disease at all, but rather a manifestation of internal conflict. Either that, or it's the claim that a tumor is the body's protective mechanism to encapsulate spoiled or poisoned cells from excess acid that has not been properly eliminated through urination, perspiration, defecation or respiration.

Unfortunately, if gp or his wife sees this, no doubt they will see it as yet another example of a close-minded physician. However, I am a physician who sincerely hopes that Mrs. gp does not become like some women described by Peter Moran:

The studies   that predict a favourable outcome for many with lumpectomy alone predict misery for others.  The women on the wrong side of the gamble, those trying to cope with  persistent cancer  either eventually have to accept further medical care, usually mastectomy, or can be observed making  fleeting visits  to their old Internet stamping grounds,  asking for advice  on what to do about the pain or smelly discharge, or regarding what last-ditch methods they should try, having by now used most of the treatments on offer...

Amazingly, some of these unfortunate women still fly the "alternative" flag, remaining proud that they have have "treated" their breast cancer "without using any conventional methods".  This is a tribute to the occasional success of malicious propaganda  that claims, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, that medical treatment of cancer doesn't work or makes things worse.   The truth is that the prognosis for cure of breast cancer is very good, especially if found early via screening. In fact,  even when all stages of the disease are included [4] 80% of  women with breast cancer survive for ten years, with most of these being cured permanently.

I'm also reminded that I've just returned home from a meeting in Phoenix, where I met a former fellow from my old program who now practices in nearby Scottsdale. She happens to have read this blog, and our discussion turned to the fact that Arizona is ground zero for a whole lot of woo, which led her to describe a series of patients whom she's seen with advanced, fungating tumors that had been treated by, as she put it, "naturopaths putting various salves on them." I concluded that I would have a hard time practicing in Arizona. I was also reminded yet again that this sort of quackery kills.

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Orac...you have a couple of paragraphs repeated/reworded...they're after the "Napalm for humans" quote.

Good post. I agree this is not suitable for Friday woo. This nonsense leads to peoples' deaths, and should be raged against.

Glad you wrote about it here. I seldom visit PZ's site nowadays...PZ is great as long as he sticks to the science, but he often doesn't and is as misinformed about religious philosophy as the creationists are about biology, evolution and sometimes science in general (which is why I stopped going to creationist sites too). It is just painful to see.

By Daniel J. Andrews (not verified) on 09 Mar 2009 #permalink

I think that comment about McDonalds is especially funny since I'm not anything like what a friend of mine calls a "food Calvinist," and I won't eat at McDonald's. As far as I'm concerned, that stuff isn't food by any rational definition. Sure, you can ingest it, but people eat clay and precious metals too...

misinformed about religious philosophy as the creationists are about biology

No, he's not. I've read Aquinas, many of the medieval writers on religion, a couple of the Puritan divines, and some modern philosophers, and there's still no there there. I've also read the Bible, the Qu'ran in translation, and the Torah partly in translation, partly in Hebrew. What he talks about is the reality on the ground in a large part of the United States, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the religious formulations of highbrow philosophers, and is approximately as different as Spinoza and Kramer and Sprenger.

By Interrobang (not verified) on 09 Mar 2009 #permalink

Beck tells you that his therapy won't work if you take any other therapy, be it conventional chemotherapy, surgery, and radiation, or even any other "alternative" therapy

What a brilliant way to discover unknown cures!
If you avoid all known therapies, and the Zapper does not cure you, then there must be an unknown factor in your diet preventing the cure.

By grasshopper (not verified) on 09 Mar 2009 #permalink

Interrobang - have you read Good Omens (Pratchett & Gaiman)? There's a nice take on the processed food industry there, via one of the 4 Horsemen...

How many people, I wonder, turn to this stuff because they can't afford a real course of treatment ? Not so many, I'd hope. Usually the reason these quack treatments exist is to rip someone else off, and the more cash they have the better, for the scammer.

Nice article, objectivity is obviously not your forte.

The Lexus costs money and the 5 paid trips per year to Las Vegas on Glaxo's nickel to attend the cytotoxin convention where you learn about the latest neoadjuvant therapy methods (using Glaxo's products) while betting on black and drinking free Heineken is a nice perk; it keeps the light bill paid and the malpractice insurance in check and maybe every once in a while you sneak a Marlboro Light to live life on the edge.

Starting with your "microcurrent nonsense" speak, instead of discounting the technology as quackery it might help for you to refute in its entirety why it is in fact nonsense, by specifically replicating the very simple experiment conducted by Dr. Kaali and Dr. Lyman on human blood. I suppose one concession that you gave was recognizing the possibilities for electroporation in cancer treatment, even to a conventional oncologist such as yourself. Regionlized distribution of meds, the ability to reduce by several magnitudes the levels of chemotherapy administered to a patient etc.

Oh wait, less chemo equals less revenue for your practice, let's rethink that electroporation thingy again. I doubt that you can downgrade to the Acura again, the Hippocratic Oath simply won't fit into that small of a trunk next to the Glaxo pens pads and samples AND the golf clubs.

"One can't help but note the irony here that gp, being so concerned with diet to treat his wife's cancer and, presumably, to preserve health, was scarfing down Mickey D's and Coke, much as I, with my crappy eating habits, probably would have done had I found myself in gp's position."

The irony is that you missed the statement and scenario completely. You can't get in or out of Moffit Research without passing through McDonald's. A fast food joint in the lobby of one of the world's most prestigious cancer treatment centers. A surreal and macabre oasis of fast food peddling of soylent green (extra fries with that?), with the bald and wrecked shells of cancer patients mulling around aimlessly in God's waiting room with their Big Macs and large Cokes. Absurd.

The wag in me can't resist mentioning that Laetrile has cyanide in it. Talk about poison! Perhaps gp can tell me why poison in Laetrile is good, but any toxicity due to chemotherapy is a horror that will destroy the body's immune system.

Laetrile contains two sugar molecules and a cyanide molecule. The cancer is attracted to the sugar and injects all three, causing apostasis to the cancer cell and with reports of it additionally causing tumor necrosis in clinical trials. You stuff dollar bills into your bank account by prescribing cytotoxins and nuclear medicine but a naturally occurring substance with cyanic content is poisonous quackery, how quaint.

The rest of your posting is pro-pharma cheerleading with the occasional attack and insult thrown in for good measure, I don't have the electrons to spare. Big Pharma have groomed you well, keep up the good work and enjoy those all-expense-paid vacations to learn about the latest and greatest medicine you are required to advocate and sell to your clients. You will eventually retire a wealthy aristocrat, I am sure.

Cheers

DLC: Just today, an elderly woman of my acquaintance said to me, "I won't be able to afford to go to the doctor this month if my application for supplemental insurance isn't approved", and yet her medicine cabinet is stuffed full of pills, potions, and vitamins that she pays cash for at the health food store. Sigh...

Well, I get up to right about a weird dream in Notepad, and I just had to stop by here with a fresh troll. Now I've gotten myself committed to more than just chuckling at a few fellow skeptics making good points with humor.

While we're waiting for Orac to respond on the "microcurrent nonsense", probably by pointing out an attempt to shift the burden of proof, how about you provide decent evidence for the device, instead, gp. Testimonials like those spewed on the latest weight loss "results not typical" commercial don't count: They're inherently cherry picking and involve interpretation though bias. That's why statistics is a very important part of science.

As for the whole pharma shill gambit, how about you just shut up about that whole thought-stopping cliche. We aren't conformist drones. That means we aren't quite as susceptible to such propaganda tactics. So I suggest you stick to the topic of the device's effectiveness.

@gp
It doesn't matter whether Orac's richer than Bill Gates. No amount of money in the world changes the argument. You're still wrong.

By Rogue Epidemiologist (not verified) on 09 Mar 2009 #permalink

The rest of your posting is pro-pharma cheerleading with the occasional attack and insult thrown in for good measure, I don't have the electrons to spare. Big Pharma have groomed you well, keep up the good work and enjoy those all-expense-paid vacations to learn about the latest and greatest medicine you are required to advocate and sell to your clients. You will eventually retire a wealthy aristocrat, I am sure.

One can't help but notice that you haven't refuted any of the substance of my post; I'm guessing my educated guesses about the case were pretty darned close to the truth.

@gp

Nice article, objectivity is obviously not your my forte.

Fixed it for you.

macabre oasis

Let me see. Macabre suggests the horror of death and decay. Oasis means a fertile or green spot in a desert, or more generally a situation preserved from surrounding unpleasantness. So an oasis that is also macabre is indeed surreal. It also implies that the rest of the cancer treatment center is very effective, as you have to go to the McDonalds to get the horror of death and decay.

Dr. Orac, if you would be so kind to answer this very simple three part question I would be forever in your debt.

How many medical conventions did you attend in the calendar year of 2008; what were the destinations of said medical conventions; how many of those conventions were paid for by pharmaceutical companies?

Cheers

;)

There's a reason why science is so demanding, and it's innate human biases. You are a perfect example, gp. Your brain is ignoring the mountains of scientific and clinical evidence that has shown how effective these treatments are, and if you doubt their effectiveness, I gently encourage you to look at the survival rates for cancer over the last few decades. If you believe that these various "alt" therapies, which have existed for hundreds if not thousands of years (less the electroporation, which Orac did mention appear possibly viable), have an iota of affect on these numbers, I happen to have a cancer-curing bridge I'd like to sell you.

Additionally, might I point out that you are not informed enough about this. So far as I have seen, there is one person on this blog who spent eight years and more intensively learning about cancer and how to battle it; and it ain't you, buster.

How many medical conventions did you attend in the calendar year of 2008; what were the destinations of said medical conventions; how many of those conventions were paid for by pharmaceutical companies?

Three.
San Diego, Chicago, and New York.
Zero. Nada. Zip.

Now you are forever in my debt, and I will collect.

Electroporation into eukaryotic cells requires electrical fields on the order of several kV/cm. I doubt that this "device" is capable of generating the required voltage.

Drug (or, if you like "herbal remedy") delivery by electrical charge (iontophoresis) requires a lower voltage, but is generally only effective for charged (or highly polar) molecules.

Finally, gp makes the common wackosphere assumption that anyone who takes money from "Big Pharma" is forever in their control - sort of like getting a loan from The Mob (or TARP). He forgets that the scientists who get those grants also get grants from other sources (e.g. NIH, NSF, ACI, AHI, etc.) that would not award grants to someone who was "biasing" their results toward "Big Pharma".

Of course, gp may have swallowed the "Big Lie" and assume that everyone who disagrees with him is part of "The Massive Conspiracy to Hide the Truth". In that case, nothing will convince him that the voices in his head are wrong.

Prometheus

Dr. Schandl's CV and a list of peer-reviewed research was posted earlier today and then subsequently deleted, nice.

One can't help but notice that you haven't refuted any of the substance of my post; I'm guessing my educated guesses about the case were pretty darned close to the truth.

Ok, for starters:

Remember, surgery is the main curative modality in breast cancer that is curable.

Blatant lie. Surgery is NOT the main "curative modality" for breast cancer, neoadjuvant chemotherapy is the requirement now. Moffitt WOULD NOT remove the tumor from her breast, they REQUIRED neoadjuvant chemo prior to surgery. To the uninformed reader, the lay translation of that is leaving a cancerous tumor in the breast while they administer cytotoxins to shrink the tumor, all the while it is emitting cancerous microtumors (onco's words, not mine) into the blood stream and increasing the possibilities for a metastatic spread to other parts of the body.

Further research we did into neoadjuvant chemotherapy showed that there is actually an increased possibility of a reoccurance of cancer with that method based on the fact it shrinks the tumor to the point where there is a higher probability of leaving a remnant of the tumor in the body at the eventual surgery stage. That goes without stating the obvious fact that you are destroying the immune system with chemo while a tumor is still present in the body.

Her oncologist at Moffitt couldn't even cite any relevant statistics for adjuvant chemotherapy mortality rates based upon the prevalence of neoadjuvant chemotherapy regimens being peddled by oncologists worldwide. Neoadjuvant chemotherapy is a big steaming pile of horse manure propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to sell more cellular toxins while using humans for their clinical research studies.

Dr. Schandl's CV and a list of peer-reviewed research was posted earlier today and then subsequently deleted, nice.

I deleted nothing. I almost never delete anything, no matter how critical it is of me. I've been in the OR all day until now. I just checked my spam filters, too. It wasn't caught in the spam filters.

Blatant lie. Surgery is NOT the main "curative modality" for breast cancer, neoadjuvant chemotherapy is the requirement now.

Wrong.

Neoadjuvant chemotherapy is only recommended in general for two reasons: Locally advanced tumors to render them resectable (think inflammatory cancer or cancer adherent to the chest wall) or to shrink tumors in order to make breast conserving surgery possible. Granted, the indications for neoadjuvant therapy have become a bit more liberal than they used to be, but by no means is neoadjuvant chemotherapy the primary curative modality for breast cancer. That you would think this to be true shows that you clearly do not understand the very concept of neoadjuvant therapy in the first place. Here's a hint: It wouldn't be called neoadjuvant therapy if it were the "main curative modality." It's an adjuvant therapy, with the word "neo" pointing out that it is being given before, rather than after, surgery.

As for the claim that neoadjuvant therapy leads to an increased possibility of recurrence, perhaps you'd like to show me the peer-reviewed literature that says that. In general, the consensus from randomized clinical trials is that neoadjuvant therapy produces equivalent survival and disease-free intervals. What I think you are referring to is a meta-analysis by Mauri, Pavlidis, and Ioannidis that found a statistically significant risk of local recurrence in patients who underwent neoadjuvant chemotherapy with radiation and no surgery.

Which actually argues that surgery is the primary modality, because just using chemotherapy and radiation results in a higher recurrence rate.

That goes without stating the obvious fact that you are destroying the immune system with chemo while a tumor is still present in the body.

Actually, it doesn't. The question is whether the tumor is destroyed more than the immune system and which recovers sooner. It's a lot more complicated than your painfully simple-minded understanding.

Orac,

Again, Moffitt would NOT PERFORM SURGERY without neoadjuvant chemotherapy. This is a REQUIREMENT by Moffitt, and they were the second opinion we received.

This isn't "simple-minded" understanding, this is both her and I sitting across the table from a senior oncologist from Moffitt telling us they WILL NOT OPERATE AND REMOVE THE TUMOR without neoadjuvant chemotherapy.

In your infinite wisdom, wit, and scientific grace, please explain to me how surgery is the "main curative modality" for breast cancer when the administration of at least six months of cytotoxins are REQUIRED by Moffitt prior to performing surgery to remove the tumor?

Ten minutes later with Google:

Results using the present analysis suggested that primary chemotherapy delayed early death rates, without significantly modifying long-term event rates. It emphasizes that a short-term effect which is not necessarily associated with a long-term benefit may be seen at an early evaluation and disappear later on.

Smith IE, Lipton L: Preoperative/neoadjuvant medical therapy for early breast cancer. Lancet Oncol 2:561â570, 2001 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10674880?dopt=Abstract

5-year actuarial reporting, 5-year actuarial reporting, 5-year actuarial reporting.

The data revealed a higher cancer recurrence rate in women who had chemotherapy before surgery, although this did not affect survival rates, which were similar for both groups.

Mieog JSD, van der Hage JA, van de Velde CJH. Preoperative chemotherapy for women with operable breast cancer (Review). Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2007, Issue 2. http://www.hbns.org/getDocument.cfm?documentID=1510

That's exactly the same thing that can be said about lumpectomy compared to mastectomy for breast cancer. Local recurrence rates are higher after lumpectomy, but the survival is the same. It's not surprising that you zeroed in on the only possible downside of neoadjuvant chemotherapy and ignored all the upsides--cited in that very article:

Giving chemotherapy to women with operable breast cancer before they have surgery â not after â helps physicians pin down the best treatment regimen and can reduce the extent of surgery, according to a new systematic review.

Preoperative chemotherapy reduced chemo-related infections by 4 percent and the need for mastectomies by 17 percent when compared to postoperative chemotherapy, found reviewers led by Sven Mieog, M.D., of Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands.

Mieog and colleagues looked at 14 studies that included 5,500 women with operable breast cancer. Half of the women received preoperative chemotherapy and the rest received chemotherapy after surgery.

The data revealed a higher cancer recurrence rate in women who had chemotherapy before surgery, although this did not affect survival rates, which were similar for both groups.

âTen studies reported overall survival data on 4,620 women involving 1,139 estimated deaths,â the authors write. âThere was no detectable difference between preoperative and postoperative chemotherapy.â

The review appears in the current issue of The Cochrane Library, a publication of The Cochrane Collaboration, an international organization that evaluates research in all aspects of health care. Systematic reviews draw evidence-based conclusions about medical practice after considering both the content and quality of existing trials on a topic.

One reason for giving chemotherapy first is to shrink tumors before surgery, the researchers say.

Moreover, preoperative chemotherapy allows doctors to see if a tumor is resistant to a particular drug and thus adjust the dose or switch to another drug after surgery. The patient might avoid toxic side effects while getting another chance to receive appropriate systemic treatment, Mieog said.

After surgery, doctors can no longer gauge chemotherapyâs effect on tumor size.

âConcerns could be raised on the postoperative and thus âblindâ administration of chemotherapy to patients with tumors resistant to a specific chemotherapy regimen,â Mieog said. âThese patients will receive all chemotherapy courses while only experiencing the harmful side effects.â

Side effects such as hair loss, cardiac symptoms, nausea and vomiting, and white blood cell disorders were similar for both groups, the Cochrane reviewers found.

âInitially, preoperative chemotherapy was set up to improve overall survival by not waiting for the surgical procedure and the subsequent recovery â a couple of months means one or two [cancer] cell divisions,â Mieog said.

He added, âThe chemotherapy also increased the breast conservation rate; it is well known that conserving the breast as compared to mastectomy is associated with an increased recurrence rate, without, however, hampering long-term overall survival.â

All medicine is a weighing of risks versus benefits. At the very least, neoadjuvant chemotherapy is equal to standard postoperative in the one measure that matters the most: Survival rates.

Orac said

It's a lot more complicated than your painfully simple-minded understanding.

Tip - you should save that sentence for handy copy-paste since it can be re-used nearly every day on this blog.

The Lexus costs money

Being from Michigan, Orac wouldn't drive a Japanese car. By the way Orac, is your Ford GT faster than Steven Novella's Ferarri?:)

gp - if you were at all familiar with this blog, you would know that Orac recently lost 2 family members to cancer, so your "he's in it for the money" fallacy is particularly idiotic.

@prometheus - several kV/cm for electroporation into eukaryotic cells - is that the right units? If so, that is in the being struck by lightning range. However, this sort of several orders of magnitude too small to be effective error is typical of woo devices.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 11 Mar 2009 #permalink

Militant Agnostic,

Early electroporation of eukaryotic cells used ~8 kV/cm - now we use 0.2 - 2 kV and a 0.4 cm inter-electrode distance. I seriously doubt that this device is even approaching those voltages.

Prometheus

Well, you can ignore the US Patents - which are legal documents that hold up in a court of law that must serve a "useful" purpose before even being considered to be approved - until the cows come home but that does not change the facts.
There are several US Patents (which can be provided) that specifically deal with diseases via electrification of the blood as well as magnetic pulsing so unless the legal team and the Patent examiners decided to simply grant these Patents willy-nilly, you can rest assured that they are genuine. Patents go through stringent testing, cost thousands and thousands of dollars is R&D, application and processing fees and can take years before Patent is granted and as mention must be "useful". Why would anyone bother going through any of the above if the patent did not work?

Anyway, here is another US Patent, unrelated to electrification. US Patent 6063770 - Tannic acid compositions for treating cancer .
Note how real people (ie not lab rats) were used in the 20 plus examples of patients being "cured" of cancer.
Don't argue with me because if you have a problem speak with the US Patent office who grant these legal documents.

you can ignore the US Patents - which are legal documents that hold up in a court of law that must serve a "useful" purpose before even being considered to be approved

Patents go through stringent testing, cost thousands and thousands of dollars is R&D, application and processing fees and can take years before Patent is granted and as mention must be "useful".

Obviously you have no idea of the reality of the US patent system. Patent examiners don't always even discover prior art, which is why patents not infrequently get overturned when someone turns up that prior art. The idea that patent examiners, who can't always get the relatively simple issue of prior art right, will be better judges than actual scientists in the field, on the usefulness of an invention - that's really hilarious! Not to mention easily debunked - or are you claiming that this anti-gravity patent that effectively constitutes a claim of perpetual motion is on the up-and-up? Or how about patents on compression of random data? I realize that you may not understand why that's mathematically impossible, so I'll put it this way: if it's possible to losslessly compress all files by one bit, it's also possible to gather together a group of people, have them empty the change from their pockets into a big bowl, and then redistribute the change to the people so that each person has more change than was in their pocket originally.

Why would anyone bother going through any of the above if the patent did not work?

Why would a poker player raise heavily if he knows his hand is worth nothing? Because by acting as if it's worth something might fool the others, and allow the player to win by psychological means, when he is unlikely to win on the strength of his hand alone. It's called "bluffing". This fully accounts for why someone would bother going through a patent process with a patent that did not work -- even before we consider the fact that many people are unrealistic about the things they create, and that many an inventor who thought he had the most perfect invention in the world's history really didn't.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 02 Dec 2009 #permalink

"As for colloidal silver, apparently gp is unconcerned with the Blue Man syndrome that can occur as a result of its use, more properly known as agyria."

This is BS. People use silver every day, no one who is ingesting a teaspoon of 10ppm silver solution per day is going to get agyria. Your sentence implies that ANY dosage is bad. You have comitted WOO yourself.

Dear Xiaoding, Necromancer Troll, why did it take you almost two years to come up with that evidence free comment? And no, the sentence does not imply what you claim it does.