Antivaccine cranks try to create Vaccine Injury Awareness Month. Everyone either yawns or laughs.

Normally, these days I greet the month of October with a mixture of anticipation and dread. The anticipation stems from October’s position as Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Now that somehow I’ve managed to have a variety of responsibilities with respect to how breast cancer is managed at our cancer institute, suddenly I find that I’m sometimes called upon to do media appearances, and Breast Cancer Awareness Month is one time we can use to get our message out about breast health and breast cancer detection and treatment, not to mention to highlight for the local media some of the cool research that goes on here. Every year (or so it would seem) the quacks, cranks, and haters of science-based medicine come out of the woodwork to use October as an excuse either to attack “conventional” medicine (particularly anything related to breast cancer), promote quackery, or both.

In 2014, here we go again.

It would appear that in the wake of their ridiculous #CDCwhistleblower campaign, antivaccinationists have decided to infest Twitter in a big way. This time around, they appear to have foolishly decided once again to try to co-opt with Breast Cancer Awareness Month by trying to co-opt October as “Vaccine Injury Awareness Month” with their usual pseudoscience, persecution complex. It’s something that appears to have started in 2010 and has been resurrected every year since then. This year, antivaccinationists are trying to deluge Twitter with ridiculous hashtags such as #CDCwhistleblower, #hearthiswell, and #VaxTruth. For example:

vaccineawareness

And:

vaccineaware

Unfortunately, it’s just as ridiculous now as it was then. Still, it might be fun to tweak antivaccinationists during their Twitter tempest in a teacup with some actual science. Or not. Either way, I’m guessing this latest Twitter tantrum will work about as well as previous antivaccine Twitter tantrums, as in not at all.

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Normally, these days I greet the month of October with a mixture of anticipation and dread. The anticipation stems from October's position as Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Now that somehow I've managed to have a variety of responsibilities with respect to how breast cancer is managed at our cancer…
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Before 2005, I did pay attention to the antivaccine movement, but it wasn't one of my biggest priorities when it comes to promoting science-based medicine. That all changed when Robert F. Kennedy published his incredibly conspiracy-packed black whole of antivaccine pseudoscience entitled Deadly…
As I've said before recently, I have mixed emotions regarding Breast Cancer Awareness Month. On the one hand, I look forward to it because it provides us with a pretext to get out science-based messages about breast cancer and to highlight a lot of the cool science that we do at our cancer center.…

Oh Margaret...what a bunch of dopes!

On a more serious note, re: breast cancer awareness: Someone told me that doctors are now recommending routine screening ultrasounds rather than mammograms for women with dense breast tissue because the ultrasound is far more sensitive. Since I'm one of those women, and scheduled for a mammogram next month, I'd appreciate some expert advice from Orac or any other specialists on this blog.

Ugh. Again with the black ribbon. Do they not realize that they are telling the world they think their living children are dead?

@Todd...ugh, I hadn't noticed the black ribbon. There's a reason no other group uses it because black=death. I gotta think, knowing these loons, that they picked it on purpose.

@Michelle

Of course they picked it on purpose. They view their children as lost and stolen. Their "ideal" child is, in essence, dead, never to return. They can't accept that the ideal child never exists, for anyone. We have what we hope for our children to be and become, but the reality is never the same.

And since this is, after all, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, a former b.f.f. of imprisoned serial scammer Kevin Trudeau, the quacky "Dr." Leonard Coldwell (who claims to have cured more than 35,000 cancer patients and to have a 92.3% cure rate) hit the ground running on Facebook today with this. It appeared on both his personal page and his public "health" forum, The Only Answer to Cancer:

==BEGIN COLDWELL'S POST==
My comment for today. I am just watching the criminals on the main stream news making billions for the international bankers ( owners of the pharmaceutical and medical industry ) with the breast cancer awareness hoax. Mammograms done prevent cancer they cause cancer. A breast tumor grows 7 to 12 years to a size that they can even find it. There is no need to any hurry and fast surgery and the murder via chemo, radiation and anti hormone therapy in my experience. I can cure every cancer in 2 to 16 weeks. ( not every person but every cancer ). There are over 400 natural cancer cures known today. All these idiots on the News are talking about how they are cured since they are one year after the murderous procedures cancer free - here is some news for you idiots: no you can't be cured from cancer via slaughter poison and burn! The cancer is only hidden because they killed all body functions and can do so for 3 to 5 years and than they are usually all dead as i experienced. Cancer is systemic the tumor is only the symptom not the cancer. To cure cancer you need to identify and eliminate the root cause of it. Cancer is cause to 86% by mental and emotional stress. If you don't eliminate that energy draining stress that allows the body to malfunction you can't eliminate the cancer. It is like pushing a splinter deeper into your skin and stating because you don't see the splinter anymore it is gone! No it is not and the problem just got worst! The same is true with the symptom treatment and suppression used by the medical industry. Inform yourself www.DrLeonardColdwell.com and become a member of the www.IBMSMastersSociety.com to learn the truth about cancer cures and prevention based on my personal successes and experiences. Also find out why my books How to survive your illness and your doctor and The Only Answer to cancer are so successful. www.shopdrc.com ( I do not make any money on the sales)
===END POST===

Permalink to the post:
https://www.facebook.com/theonlyanswertocancer/posts/300909470117744

In a subsequent comment on the same thread, Coldwell claims (as he has previously claimed) that last year, "they" spent $42 million to "destroy my credibility and reputation." Presumably he is talking about the big pharmaceutical companies, whom he has accused of endlessly hounding him and even trying to kill him (he claims that he's been shot at, his car bombed, etc., and that he still has a bullet in his body from one of the hit attempts).

Coldwell has also written disgusting things about Angelina Jolie, claiming she had her breasts sliced off just to make money from (and for) the medical establishment.

Not surprisingly he is also stringently anti-vax and preaches that vaccinations are murder, and/or are a plot by the New World Order to take control of the citizenry. The sad thing is that he has thousands of followers.

By Connie Schmidt (not verified) on 01 Oct 2014 #permalink

Oooh! Oooh! I once had some injection-site soreness and a slight fever from a hepatitis shot, and the flu mist makes my nose clog up. That's a vaccine injury, that is.

I'm also on the autism spectrum, but that is not a vaccine injury.

By Becca Stareyes (not verified) on 01 Oct 2014 #permalink

Twitter storm?

More like a storm of twits.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 01 Oct 2014 #permalink

I have been reading this blog for over a year, and have been impressed by the insightful, snarky, yet communicative comments. Although the appeals to reactionaries for valid data to back up their claims is not often rewarding, we have to keep it up.

I suggest a measles, mumps, rubella, polio, etc. awareness month. Obviously many of these denialists have no idea what it was like to have these diseases spread unchecked. Humans have short memories. Besides, with the recent upsurge in measles and the like (just up the road from me, actually) - there will be many more examples of those diseases than there are of actual vaccine injury.

Man down, tie a ribbon around my soul
I'm in the black and I'm out of control
Like a ship that's lost in the night
With no direction or guiding light

Man down and I'm drowning in the pain
Face down like a needle in a vein

Black Ribbons -- Shooter Jennings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWKFNEIsKXQ

A particularly virulent contingent of the mental-health quacks have also designated October as Ex-Gay Awareness Month to promote a discredited and dangerous form of "therapy".

And for what? Tomorrow the sun will rise, and we will continue to vaccinate children far and wide and spare them from death and disability. They will not stop this any more than the church's geocentric view of the universe stopped us from going into space. Their Twitter hashtags and scribbled rants on blogs will be relics for future generations to see how foolish they were in mistaken ideas about how science works.

These people think that we who promote the proper and widespread use of vaccines to prevent horrible nightmares from becoming true are somehow "bullying" them. Ah, but they don't see any bullying in telling children who have lost limbs to meningitis that others should not be spared their same fate. They don't see bullying in telling parents who lose children to pertussis that their children are "better off" dead that autistic. And, of course, they don't see bullying in speaking about their autistic children as "dead" or "gone" right there where their own children can hear them and online where their words will be archived forever.

I neither yawn nor laugh when I see this. I sincerely feel bad for those children who will one day grow up to see how their parents regarded them as less-than-human, as burdens brought upon them by Big Pharma, CDC, or whatever other dark force they want to believe in.

They're an embarrassment to humankind
.
All my opinion, of course.

Presumably he is talking about the big pharmaceutical companies, whom he has accused of endlessly hounding him and even trying to kill him (he claims that he’s been shot at, his car bombed, etc., and that he still has a bullet in his body from one of the hit attempts).

It's almost like Lowell Hubbs done correctly, including the "peculiar" prose stylings.

Black Ribbons — Shooter Jennings

<killfile>

Stanford's graduate program in immunology has had some fun, singing and dancing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYuun0LAqWU#t=187

Text appended to YouTube video

As scientists who study the immune system, we have noticed a lot of confusion lately about how vaccines keep us healthy and why they're so helpful to society. We created this video as a fun explanation.

Lyrics:
I'm gonna go get my vaccine, so all you germs beware.
But wait! You might get autism. Does that give you a scare?
Well, science shows that link is wrong. It's too hard to ignore. With all the evidence I don't believe that anymore!
I guess I understand just what he means.
Oh, I just can't wait for my vaccine!

It just seems hard for kids’ bodies to handle so many shots all at once.
But think of all of the germs, when we’re running around, in the dirt or the sand.
Our body is a battleground!
My immune system is challenged all day.
A vaccine is just one more way!

Now tell me about side effects: won’t vaccines make me sick?
A side effect is really rare - don’t let yourself be tricked.
But even if they’re rare, I still can skip it if I please.
It’s so much safer to get a vaccine than a disease.
I guess he has a point that can be seen.
Oh, I just can't wait for my vaccine!

My friends were born sickly.
It’s to you that they plea, cause they can’t get a vaccine and neither can this baby!
For when you boost your own immunity, you will protect the whole community.
Don't miss out on this opportunity!
Oh, I just can't wait for my vaccine!
Oh, I just can't wait for my vaccine!
Oh, I just can't wait for my vaccine!

Credits:
Vaccine Boy: Nick Bayless
Vaccine Girl: Eden Maloney
Skeptic: Thomas Keller
Germ 1: Luhua Zhang
Germ 2: Michal Tal
Doctor: Gabi Fragiadakis
Vaccine Boy Vocals: Eduardo González-Maldonado
Vaccine Girl Vocals: Trisha Stan
Vaccine Crowd: Stanford Immunology Faculty, Postdocs, and Ph.D Students
Writer: Dara Strauss-Albee
Directors: Dara Strauss-Albee and Cat Hartzell
Costumes: Cat Hartzell and Alex Louie
Camera and Editing: Andrew Carman (http://carmandrew.com)
Recording and Mixing: Trisha Stan

Special Thanks to Barry Starr and The Tech Museum of Innovation in San Jose, CA

Filmed at the Annual Stanford Immunology Retreat at Asilomar Conference Grounds in Pacific Grove, CA

Sponsored by the Stanford Biosciences Student Association

Stanford Immunology Website: http://immunol.stanford.edu/
The Tech Museum: http://www.thetech.org/

Parody of "I Just Can't Wait to Be King" from The Lion King. Copyright 1994 Disney Corporation.

Somehow exposing people with compromised immunity to VPDs, harassing pharmacy employees, calling vaccine supporters shills and criminals as well as contacting vaccine advocating physicians' and epidemiologists' employers are not bullying.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 01 Oct 2014 #permalink

At the AVN October runs until the 335th. Then it's October again.

By reasonablehank (not verified) on 01 Oct 2014 #permalink

I can cure every cancer in 2 to 16 weeks. ( not every person but every cancer ).

In other words, the patient dies, but the cancer will be fine.

It is so disheartening to hear these glib and frankly stupid arguements. I'm just back from the British Society for Genetic Medicine annual conference where real science is discussed with really smart, clear thinking people like Steve Norad presenting, what a breath of fresh air!

I find all those tweets very sad. I'm sure the great majority of those people sincerely believe that there is a huge cover-up of damage caused by vaccines. They are wrong, and I wish there were a way of convincing them otherwise, but I don't see any easy way that can be done.

I clicked on one link that claimed, "Millions of Children Infected with Dr. Paul Offit's Rotateq Vaccine", which piqued my curiosity. It led to a Sayer Ji article claiming that rotavirus vaccines are contaminated wiith live retroviruses, and linked to a scientific paper to support this. Sayer Ji wrote:

Unfortunately for Dr. Offit (not so affectionately named Dr. Profit), a 2010 study published in Journal of Virology revealed that his multi-million dollar grossing patent on the Rotateq vaccine contains a live simian retrovirus (with a 96% match of certainty) that has likely infected millions of children over the past few years with a virus that causes great harm.

Sounds alarming, doesn't it? However when I looked at the study itself I found this:

The detection of SRV DNA (or other retroviral sequences) in live-attenuated vaccines, therefore, simply reflects their generation in cells, which contain a large genome load of endogenous retroviruses, rather than the presence of adventitious viruses of concern.

In other words Rotateq does not contain a live simian retrovirus, and it has not "infected millions of children over the past few years". Neither is SRV "a virus that causes great harm" to humans:

A prior study showed two cases of SRV seroconversion in people with extensive blood and saliva contacts with nonhuman primates presumably following infection with replication-competent SRV. Neither clinical symptoms nor ongoing viremia was observed in these seropositive individuals.

I know I shouldn't be surprised when I find antivaxxers lying yet again, but I still find it baffling when over and over again I see them make a claim and link to a study that they claim supports their claim, when it actually does the exact opposite.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

how dare everyone of you insensitive paid Pharma shill pricks. You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured. I have 2 grandsons that are. They were poisoned by the pediatrician we thought was supposed to care for them. I am sure he didn't do it on purpose, but like the majority of the population he believed what the robots from Merck, and the others said. So joke about it if you like but remember you bunch of miserable bitches, these are kids we are talking about that suffer every day. My wish for you is that you are all affected and then you will realize what these kids have to endure

krebiozen --

I still find it baffling when over and over again I see them make a claim and link to a study that they claim supports their claim, when it actually does the exact opposite.

This is pretty much standard operating procedure over in climate-science-denial land. Among other things, there's a notorious list of something like 1000 publications purported to dispute the consensus; some of the authors have written indignant commentaries pointing out that their papers do no such thing.

By palindrom (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Lorraine,

There is a simple solution

You mean a study like this one carried out in Germany? It concluded:

The evaluation showed that vaccinated children and unvaccinated children differed substantially only in terms of the lifetime prevalence of vaccine preventable diseases; as is to be expected the risk of such diseases is notably lower in vaccinated subjects.

In the largest study in children and adolescents so far none of the often anticipated health differences—such as allergies and the number of infections—were observed in vaccinated and unvaccinated subjects aged 1–17 years.

Vaccines, as we would expect, prevent the diseases they are designed to, without any measurable adverse effects on health. That's a win-win in my book. That article you linked to is a mass of misinformation, by the way.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

@1 Michelle

I may have missed Orac's or others' replies. My apologies.

Ultrasound is an extremely lousy screening tool since it is very specific, but _not_ very sensitive. At least that was our experience back in the 1970s and 1980s at the Indiana University School of medicine (Harper, Kelly-Fry, Noe, among other authors.)

Our results which are old but still valid, were pretty much 100% accurate in differentiating between benign and malignant solid masses, and over 98 % accurate in cystic masses. We could also pick up rather rare masses. I recall a mucinous carcinoma that simply didn't show on X-ray mammography.

HOWEVER!!! Ultrasound just doesn't pick up anything much under 2-3mm in diameter. Simple physics, based on wavelength. We could never pick up microcalcifications which X-ray is very capable of seeing.

Let's Just Say, (TM from another list) Michael Moskowitz is a minor hero of mine, when it comes to screening.

In a somewhat related note, there is an excellent blog post about vaccines and the 'cause' of too much internet use.
deevybee.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/why-most-scientists-dont-take-susan.html

@Connie Schmidt #5

Coldwell has also written disgusting things about Angelina Jolie, claiming she had her breasts sliced off just to make money from (and for) the medical establishment.

Love how he thinks that Jolie could make more money without her breasts than with them. Big Pharma must pay out more than Hollywood.

@kaiseih

Ah, the old pharma shill gambit, a sure sign that you have no valid argument to speak of.

kaiseih: "You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured."

Which "god"? Why should I thank an imaginary deity when I have a child had seizures from an actual disease?

Please, do provide the verifiable scientific evidence that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease. Come up with that, or we will assume that you get kickbacks from "Big Hospital Supply", and your income is dependent on people getting sick.

@Kaiseh:

how dare everyone of you insensitive paid Pharma shill pricks

My cheques must keep getting stolen in the mail.

You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured. I have 2 grandsons that are

What injuries do they have? Oh, and please don't say autism. I'm on the spectrum myself and I'm not vaccine injured.

My wish for you is that you are all affected and then you will realize what these kids have to endure

First off, like I said I'm autistic. Second off, I hope YOU never have to suffer what the parents of Dana McCaffrey, Kailis Smith and Kaliah Jordan did.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Ya know, I had a vaccine injury once...the nurse messed up the injection and had to prick my arm a second time! Now y'all are aware of that, so I have fulfilled my obligations for the month. Right?

My wish for you is that you are all affected

I am definitely affected - I'm sure my childhood would have been very different (and possibly a lot shorter) if I had gone through measles, mumps, rubella, polio, pertussis, diphtheria, smallpox, or tetanus (man, if there was one rusty nail or staple on the whole block, I would find it and step on it).

I only wish I was young enough to have been affected by the chicken pox vaccine. Chicken pox sucked.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

I can't believe there are actually people on this page, including Orac, posing as scientists. Orac seems like a cowardly, nameless front. And Liz Ditz, with a name like that, who actually listens to you? Sink your dull teeth into this:
Vaccine Injury: The Biological Plausibility of Microbial Predisposition
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Have you seen this study?
Self-Organized Criticality Theory of Autoimmunity

The cause of autoimmunity, which is unknown, is investigated from a different angle.

Conclusion: Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host's immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized criticality.

Inevitable? I'm wondering if that makes you laugh or yawn?

Roadstergal: Amen.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

I can’t believe there are actually people on this page, including Orac, posing as scientists

You know how it is, You buy the "Sexy Scientist" costume for Hallowe'en, and then you realise that it looks so good that you want to wear it all year round.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Here's another interesting fact:

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Hmm, I wonder if vaccines could contain any peanut proteins? Surely not, that would be too obvious.

@Stu - given that vaccines contain fewer antigens (by several magnitudes) than the body is exposed to on a daily basis, I'd lay you & your "evidence" is full of crap.

@Stu - oh, and I'm yawning, just so you know.

That will be the day, when we throw out years of scientific research into vaccines, immunology, bacteriology, virology and neurology, for the likes of Keith Bell:

"Keith Bell is a 25 year veteran of the recycling industry with interest in sanitation and health. During the 1980s, he was a UNICEF radio spokesperson in Chicago for the annual release of State of the World's Children Report. He’s particularly interested in gut-brain connection including gut-origin of seizure, underdiagnosed in epilepsy."

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s.

In which strange alternative universe did this occur?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#History

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

@ Lawrence - The study/evidence is real, no data manipulation here.
As for antigen exposure, I agree. Your body is able to handle most all natural occurring exposure. But when you mainline it, the body acts a little different.

@ herr doktor Sorry, it was dogs in this case, not children. It still was invented to describe vaccine injury.

The term aphylaxis was coined by Charles Richet in 1902 and later changed to anaphylaxis due to its nicer quality of speech.[11] In his experiments, Richet injected a dog with sea anemone toxin in an attempt to protect it. Although the dog had previously tolerated the toxin, on re-exposure with the same dose three weeks later it developed fatal anaphylaxis. Thus instead of inducing tolerance (prophylaxis), when lethal responses resulted from previously tolerated doses, he coined the word ana (without) phylaxis (protection).

Sorry, it was dogs in this case, not children.

So the claim about " a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s" was something you just made up now?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Stu - and your evidence that it was created to "describe vaccine injury" is what exactly?

Also, you do realize that vaccines aren't given intravenously, right?

No the word Allergy was invented to describe the vaccine injury to the children in the late 1800's. Anaphylaxis was invented to describe vaccine injury to dogs. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

As for Peanut protein in vaccines:
A 1973 WHO report co-written by Adjuvant 65-4 inventor Maurice Hilleman found the use of peanut oil was relatively safe if properly injected to avoid “severe adverse reactions”. But the safety of the adjuvant was challenged by others including D. Hobson in the Postgraduate Medical Journal (March, 1973). Hobson documented the power of this adjuvant to sensitize recipients to vaccine proteins. This adjuvant created allergies.

@Stu

Re: "Allergy"

It was actually coined in 1911 by Clemens E. von Pirquet to describe hypersensitivity reactions in some people who were given a second dose of horse serum or smallpox vaccine.

So what's you're point? Are you trying to argue that vaccines are responsible for all allergies? Hypersensitivity reactions have been around since before the word was coined.

I don't think I've ever seen someone use argumentum ad etymology before.

If you study Clemens von Pirquet, you will understand that the wiki entry you refer to regarding allergy is not accurate. He invented the word allergy to describe vaccine effects, not pollen or dust reactions.

If you study Clemens von Pirquet, you will understand that the wiki entry you refer to regarding allergy is not accurate

Clearly you are a scholar of the great man. Can you quote a relevant passage of his words? No need to translate, we can do that.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Hypersensitivity to dust and pollen has been around for centuries due to access through nasal and other vulnerable places. Food allergies are new and have been shown to be induced by vaccines.

Sink your dull teeth into this:
Vaccine Injury: The Biological Plausibility of Microbial Predisposition

OK. You're apparently too stupid or lazy to understand why Hooker's "reanalysis," which has been discussed at length here and elsewhere, is embarrassingly incompetent. So that takes out most of your intro.

The "there is no word for 'autism' in Somalia" as some sort of evidence that there is no autism in Somalia is utterly brain-dead. By the way, do you speak Somali? Arabic? You might want to look up ذَاتَوِيّ .

Oh, hey, wait, there are Somali words for <a href="autism and Asperger syndrome. Perhaps you could toddle over there and ask a doctor.

You then trot out an unsubstantiated claim about not just dietary habits, but Lamarckian dietary habits affecting "vulnerab[ility] to vaccine damage" and proceed to the imbecilic claim that all that's needed to to install running water and indoor plumbing in developing nations, apparently being unaware that increased sanitation is what made polio more severe in the U.S.

Next up is babbling about Bifidobacteria that mainly serves to illustrate that you either didn't read or didn't understand your sources, which have nothing to do with autism, vaccine injury, or even reducing vaccine use.

En passant, one gets a link to a PubMed search that does almost nothing to demonstrate that "several studies indicate breastfeeding deters autism," including entries from Medical Hypotheses.

Next, C-sections cause autism. Because Bifidobacteria. Rather than, say, the result of the Annals of Epidemiology paper that you cite, "PAF estimates are best interpreted as the proportion of ASD attributable to having a suboptimal perinatal environment resulting in PTB, SGA, and/or CD."

More aimless speculation leading to your prediction that "suspect bifidobacteria will become biomarkers to help avoid vaccine injuries. Every child would have microbial DNA (PCR) stool testing to determine flora balance prior to vaccination." Uh-huh.

But at least there is one solid piece of information here. Remember this?

I can’t believe there are actually people on this page, including Orac, posing as scientists.

"Keith Bell is a 25 year veteran of the recycling industry with interest in sanitation and health."

It shows.

Food allergies are new and have been shown to be induced by vaccines.

If you're going to start jabbering about nonexistent peanut-oil adjuvants, I suggest you just go away now.

^ Oh, I see that it already did.

If you understood acquired immunity, then it would be pretty obvious that injecting organ/tissue cells or food proteins directly into your system would cause your body to create a defense against them.
Inject lung cells like many vaccines contain, you are likely to have lung problems,
Inject legume proteins, you are likely to have problems with legumes.

Has Stu filled out everyone's anti-vax bingo card yet?

To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Oops.

Oh, and no, the etymology isn't Latin, either.

GRAS ingredients - Generally Regarded As Safe, do not have to be listed on vaccine ingredient lists. This can include oils that still contain trace amounts of legume or other proteins. We don't know what some vaccines include because they dont tell us.
The circumstantial evidence point to peanuts

OK Stu, we get it... you're not going to let silly things like 'facts' stand in the way of your glorious theory.
I don't know whom you expect to convince with reasoning like that, though.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Inject lung cells like many vaccines contain, you are likely to have lung problems,
Inject legume proteins, you are likely to have problems with legumes.

Inject immunoglobulin, and you're likely to have problems with... what?

inject lung cells like many vaccines contain, you are likely to have lung problems,
Nonsense. Everyone knows that lung problems are caused by insufficient lungwort.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

GRAS ingredients – Generally Regarded As Safe, do not have to be listed on vaccine ingredient lists.

You're a fυcking moron. GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.

Here, fυckwit. It's all been heard over and over before.

Forget bingo - I think Stu is going for anti-vax Powerball!!!!

Well Narad with that I will leave you to your church of pharmakeia and your magic elixirs.

Keep taking your shots, drink your fluoride, get your xrays, and line up for your chemo.

Me, Id rather take my chances with my God and trust in His creation.
God Bless

Clearly you are a scholar of the great man. Can you quote a relevant passage of his words?

The original from the Münchener medizinische Wochenschrift is here. The subsequent monograph is here.

a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera.

(where "up to 50%" is a term of art meaning "from 8% to 30%").
This claim would be less mendacious if "anti-toxin serum" was the same thing as "vaccine". Guess what! As the name suggests, it's a treatment for a toxin!

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Yes, go ahead & trust in "God" who allowed for a 50% child mortality rate, a life expectancy of about 35 - 40 years & people pretty much living in abject poverty......

Me, Id rather take my chances with my God and trust in His creation.

Yah, try to keep in mind Psalms 7:14, since it pretty much nails your performance here: "Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood."

"Gentleman" once meant a land-owner, "villain" once referred to a peasant. Word meanings change over time.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad:

GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.

Heck, even water gets listed.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Todd W. @53:
Re: “Allergy” [...] Clemens E. von Pirquet to describe hypersensitivity reactions in some people who were given a second dose of horse serum or smallpox vaccine.

Ah, alles klar. So von Pirquet was dealing with repeated doses of the smallpox vaccine of the day (thanks also to Narad @75).
And Stu's claim @39 that "Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied [a complication of diphtheria anti-toxin] at length" is the inevitable result of relying on SmartVax screeds for one's intellectual arrmamentarium.

the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera
Having thought that the antitoxin was only administered to actual cases of diphtheria, I would be interested in knowing when "mass administration" of a then-rare and expensive drug took place, but unfortunately Stu appears to have flounced.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Krebiozen

How do the different groups get the peanuts? With me, it's always been peanut butter. It 'was' one of my staple foods. I can't eat it anymore -- It comes up all night with whatever else I tried to eat. I'm not blaming the peanuts but the soybean oil that's ubiquitous to it now. I'd guess that if people would just learn not to be allergic to the BT (crygen(tm) toxin or whatever the shit is called) and Monsanto FuckUp(tm) then they wouldn't be so much of a problem -- not to worry though as those not tolerant will apparently die out soon enough.

Does anyone know if the Jewish News link above is totally anti-vax? I posted a comment at 11 am this morning, and it still hasn't appeared. But then, I somehow feel sure that all the people screaming for a vax/no vax study would run away as fast as they could if their child might end up in the vax arm - about as fast as I would run if anyone told me my child might end up in the Unvaxed arm.

And I'm highly amused by Stu. I would have yelled BINGO but got on line too late, and Lawrence was already headed for Powerball status. (sulks)

If (imaginary) peanut oil in vaccines causes peanut allergy, why do Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel?

Because they secretly use sesame oil in Israeli vaccines, silly.

HDB: You buy the “Sexy Scientist” costume for Hallowe’en, and then you realise that it looks so good that you want to wear it all year round.

What is this costume and where can I get it? Or could you suggest a cheap alternative?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

If (imaginary) peanut oil in vaccines causes peanut allergy

Homeopathic allergy?

Or could you suggest a cheap alternative?

I get the Frumpy Scientist costume for free.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

@stu

Whatever "god" you worship, I wouldn't want to believe in.

Check out the clueless Mayo Clinic with no explanation for why African Americans respond with twice as many antibodies as other groups to rubella vaccination. It's the gut flora, stupid!

Narad, thanks for your attention. Flora like bifidobacteria regulate immune response in Peyer's patches of the small intestine, affect antibody production and promote B-cell maturation. When will Editor-In-Chief of the journal Vaccine and head of Mayo's Vaccine Research Group, Dr. Gregory Poland, get with the web of life? His sterile construct is about genes in disregard of microbial regulation of genes.
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-afri…

CDC's William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR. The reason is their immune systems react differently based on flora balance. Vaccine injury is real.
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

Tim,

How do the different groups get the peanuts?

Odd question. They buy them at a store, like everyone else I imagine. There are cultural differences in when children are exposed. In the UK there is a general fear of peanut allergy and children are less exposed than they used to be; presumably there is a different attitude in Israel.

With me, it’s always been peanut butter. It ‘was’ one of my staple foods. I can’t eat it anymore — It comes up all night with whatever else I tried to eat. I’m not blaming the peanuts but the soybean oil that’s ubiquitous to it now.

Perhaps your stomach has been screwed over by all the nitrosamines you have been subjecting it to, and messing up its natural pH balance by eating baking soda. Just a thought.

I’d guess that if people would just learn not to be allergic to the BT (crygen(tm) toxin or whatever the shit is called)

If you're worried about that I would avoid organic vegetables, since they are often sprayed with billions of Bacillus thuringiensiswhich can cause allergies, while the BT protein itself does not.

and Monsanto F*ckUp(tm) then they wouldn’t be so much of a problem — not to worry though as those not tolerant will apparently die out soon enough.

Assuming you are referring to Roundup, in safety studies the detergent used in the Roundup mixture was more toxic than the glyphosate itself. This study found that dishwashing liquid is more irritating to skin than Roundup. That's not surprising when you consider it targets an enzyme (5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate (EPSP) synthase) that only exists in plants and microorganisms, making it unlikely it would have any major effects on animals.

I find it exceedingly bizarre that you are so afraid of something as safe as Roundup, yet you chew tobacco, which is a known carcinogen. Perhaps you should take a look at your risk assessment strategies.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

"CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR."

Why should we take anyone seriously when they don't even read where Dr. Thompson has been extensively discussed on this blog.

Here is an hint: go to the top of this page, look for the bold words "Search this blog." Then put Dr. Thompson's name in the box.

The Dachelbot really outdoes itself today at AoA:

Sobering message. So far all the kids who've come down with EV 68 are vaccinated.

This is from a quote from one Dr. Heather Ashton in the 'bot's source article, which was written by Dave Mihalovic. Oddly, I can't find any infectious-disease specialists by that name.

I learned not to bring up any deity on this blog. You guys hone in on that like... Like cats on a laser pointer or something.

Anyway, here's another sobering thought for the Dachelbot: All of those kids also drank water. Heck, I'm willing to bet they were all breastfed. Saying that an affected population was mostly something that most of the population already is doesn't mean that there's a causal relationship there. It's an enormous source of bias. That's why they thought that coffee caused cancer back in the 80s, because most smokers drink coffee.

Perhaps you should take a look at your risk assessment strategies.

I've been taking a very close look at that, Krebiozen. The fact remains that, here, any easterly component to the wind (especially when very light and high humidity) coming off that soybean feild and everybody is hacking. hack hack sniff sniff. I mostly get a stuffy head and hair-feeling throat at 2-4 am over it.

This year they are using the 2-4-d in combo with it -- Enlist, I think it's called. I *think* Monsanto contracts demand it be applied with whatever they say and on their schedule whether anything is grown there or not... To prevent their 'superweeds' from becoming obvious so quickly. I do know this: I mowed down a small patch ~4.5 months ago and that ground is still barren. Perfect growing season for everything else, otherwise.

Ren: "Like cats on a laser pointer or something."

Meow.

These occasional events among millions of safe uses do not mean that Bt sprays are unsafe. Quite the contrary, they prove that Bt is safe

Perhaps somebody should point out to them that they probably meant to say the BT toxin in the last half of that sentance?? *grins*

Check out the clueless Mayo Clinic with no explanation for why African Americans respond with twice as many antibodies as other groups to rubella vaccination. It’s the gut flora, stupid!

Despite the visit from "Stu," this actually wins the Dumbest Thing I've Heard All Day award. Once again, you obviously didn't even read your own source (PDF).

Flora like bifidobacteria regulate immune response in Peyer’s patches of the small intestine, affect antibody production and promote B-cell maturation.

Only for things they see first, nitwit. Do you know anything about what happens upon vaccination? If you had read your source, you'd know that these people weren't tested immediately after vaccination. What the hell do you think "promot[ing] B-cell maturation" has to do with price of in China? Do you think after spotting RA 27/3 for the first time, everybody rushes to the mesenteric lymph for a germinal-center party?

CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR.

But there's no credible evidence that that is true.

The reason is their immune systems react differently based on flora balance.

No, you are engaging in circular free association.

@MI Dawn #84

about as fast as I would run if anyone told me my child might end up in the Unvaxed arm.

I'm sorry -- There was probably a point there but I missed it because I can't stop chuckling thinking of Fantastic Voyage.

So anti-vaxxers scream about all the ingredients in vaccines - which are clearly openly available to peruse - but even that's not enough. Now they have to invent 'secret' ingredients too? Talk about clutching at straws.

There was probably a point there but I missed it because I can’t stop chuckling thinking of Fantastic Voyage

Adrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans, even.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 02 Oct 2014 #permalink

^ "the price of tea," of course.

I can't take black ribbons seriously because I'm a Terry Pratchett fan. In the Discworld books, wearing a black ribbon means you are a vampire who has sworn off sucking human blood.

Narad, you're not only crude, but beginning to look silly. At least you're showing some propensity for self-correction, congratulations.

They'll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn't already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place. You and Orac act as if vaccine injury isn't a reality which is cruel and irresponsible. And Orac is actually a doctor? Gorski wouldn't respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog. It's amazing mainstream media gives him an ounce of credibility. Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_58…

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn't necessarily take place immediately after vaccination. It takes time for the immune system reaction to damage the lining of the gut-brain where a leaky gut and leaky blood-brain barrier lead to brain inflammation.

This new study has focus on MS, but describes the process, please take a look, thanks:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0106…

Vaccine injury is very real and this page appears to a crude joke filled with fools who couldn't give a damn.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Keith Bell:

Lawrence Solomon as a reference? Speaking of silly...

You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured. I have 2 grandsons that are.

Two questions, Kaisieh:

What specific injury or injuries do you believe your grandsons suffered as a consequence of vaccination?

How did you factually establish that those injuries were in fact caused by the vaccines they received? It is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy.

I see Keith Bell has not yet figured out how to use the "search" box on this page.

Me, Id rather take my chances with my God and trust in His creation.

That wouldn't be the god said to have created all things, including the pathogens responsible for measles, chicken pox, mumps, pertussis, polio, yellow fever, ebola, etc.

Not to mention delightful creations like Onchocerca volvulus , the nematode responsible for causing African River Blindness ( the second leading cause of blindness due to infection in the world, estimated to infect 18 - 37 million people with up to 1-2 million people visually impaired and 270,000 people rendered completely blind?

By what wild stretch of the imagination would you view such a god--a god that appatently creates pathogenetic organisms for no purpose other than to make other organisms suffer horrendously--as being on your side?

I learned not to bring up any deity on this blog. You guys hone in on that like… Like cats on a laser pointer or something.

I don't know; I rarely see people here get a hard time just for mentioning or admitting that they believe in a deity (as opposed to some other places where just the phrase "Thank God" is enough to trigger self-righteous sneers about "imaginary friends", etc.) Maybe some exceptions here and there, but overall, it's a pretty tolerant atmosphere in both directions.

The only people I see getting flamed for a belief in God are the ones who try to claim that they know better than anyone else what He wants and that He wants them to ignore all medical science and skip vaccination - and those are the people who get ME ranting under my breath about gullible simpletons who think Big Sky Beard Man can fix everything they f*** up in their lazy arrogant ignorance.

Speaking of gullible simpletons, I see Keith Bell has made an appearance...

They’ll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn’t already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place.

Uh-huh. As long as you're predicting the future, why don't you give us the numbers of the next Powerball drawing?

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

From the mind of the great philosopher, Monty Python -

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid--
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen

Keith Bell,

They’ll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn’t already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place.

I would wager the results of those hearings, if they ever happen, will be similar to those of the autism omnibus hearings.

You and Orac act as if vaccine injury isn’t a reality which is cruel and irresponsible.

No one claims that vaccines never cause injury, just that such injuries are very rare. It is irresponsible to blame vaccines for conditions like autism which we know, beyond any reasonable doubt, they do not cause. Leading parents to believe that vaccination is responsible for their child's condition is cruel in the extreme. The best case is that they torture themselves with guilt for allowing their child to be injured; at worst they turn into crusading public health menaces, trying to persuade others to leave their children vulnerable to life-threatening illnesses in the mistaken belief they are doing good.
And Orac is actually a doctor? Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog. It’s amazing mainstream media gives him an ounce of credibility.
Orac supports the mainstream consensus view about vaccines, a view that is supported by mountains of evidence and by public health authorities around the world. Why would the mainstream media listen to a crank spouting pseudoscience instead? Why would Orac bother responding? No offense intended, but that is how you are perceived.

Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.

If you had followed the story carefully you would know that there is no evidence of MMR causing autism, not even in African American children, as Hooker claims in his incompetent re-analysis of DeStefano's study.

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination. It takes time for the immune system reaction to damage the lining of the gut-brain where a leaky gut and leaky blood-brain barrier lead to brain inflammation.

If that is true, why have many large studies found no link at all between vaccination and autism, MS, allergies, autoimmune diseases or SIDS? In the very rare cases that vaccines can cause problems, autoimmune thrombocytopenia after measles vaccination for example, it occurs with a much lower frequency than that seen after wild measles virus infection (one in 30,000 vs one in 5,000).

If the dead or attenuated pathogens in vaccines cause the sort of damage you claim, how much more damage does a disease like measles cause? If you claim it doesn't, why would an attenuated measles virus cause this damage when a fully virulent virus does not?

This new study has focus on MS, but describes the process, please take a look, thanks:

I suspect you have been misled by the word "immunization" in the paper. The study induced an experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis in mice, a condition used as a model for MS by researchers. This was done "either by active immunization or by adoptive transfer of autoreactive T cells". The "active immunization" consists of injections of spinal cord homogenate, purified myelin, myelin proteins or peptides of these proteins, not of anything resembling a vaccine used on human children.

Vaccine injury is very real and this page appears to a crude joke filled with fools who couldn’t give a damn.

Those who claim there is an epidemic of vaccine injury that isn't recognized by mainstream medicine are mistaken. I have every sympathy for those very few people injured by vaccines, but blaming vaccines for a host of conditions that they don't cause is in danger of leading to a public health disaster.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

Dammit, I seem to have recently lost the ability to spell "blockquote". The paragraph beginning, "And Orac is actually a doctor? " should be blockquoted in the comment above, once it appears - it was sent into moderation, presumably because I quoted the G word.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

Or, as Ian Anderson put it in Bungle in the Jungle, "He who made kittens put snakes in the grass"

Wait... let me get this straight.

PGP is so nervous about becoming the victim of a sexual assault that she wouldn't even fathom a relationship with a man, but is excited about sporting herself in a sexy scientist costume?

Something doesn't make sense here.

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

AF: "I don’t know; I rarely see people here get a hard time just for mentioning or admitting that they believe in a deity (as opposed to some other places where just the phrase “Thank God” is enough to trigger self-righteous sneers about “imaginary friends”, etc.)"

I personally got sick of my step-mother always telling me to thank a god because my son was released from the hospital, or to pray when he ended back in the hospital and never ever giving one thought to the huge number of medical personnel, the 911 operators, firefighters, EMTs, etc and even myself for getting him to all of the multiple appointments and therapy sessions he had in his first five years.

The worst was when she sent me some religious screeds that could be summed up as "let go, let god." I tossed them away after reading one story about a woman who fell and just decided to pray. All I could think was "use the brains your deity gave you and call 911!"

It is probably a "good" thing she passed away before our latest round of 911 calls, ambulance trips, hospital stays and eventual open heart surgery.

Though when we decided to attend services at friends Lutheran church instead going to the base chapel, it upset a friend of hers that we took communion there. I shared my step-mother's shock when that friend said we would be going to hell because we had not been confirmed in that church. Apparently the Missouri Synod Lutheran god is different from the Congregationalist god, or the one that presided over the US Army Chapel Protestant services (where communion is given both ways, in the pews and at the pulpit!).

End of rant. Sorry, I got up on the wrong side of the universe today.

Narad, you’re not only crude, but beginning to look silly.

Your utter failure to provide a shred of rebuttal to your absurd claim that gut flora explain higher levels of circulating antibodies to rubella in African Americans is duly noted.

^ "rebuttal for"

It takes time for the immune system reaction to damage the lining of the gut-brain where a leaky gut and leaky blood-brain barrier lead to brain inflammation.

This should be fascinating. Please lay out the "leaky blood-brain barrier" in detail. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the work of Norman Saunders first.

This new study has focus on MS, but describes the process, please take a look, thanks

Oh, is this where you cribbed the "Peyer's patches" routine from? It says exactly nothing about the mechanism of CNS barrier disruption in multiple sclerosis. Conveniently, the Saunders group is on it.

So you want to posit "vaccine injury" (scare quotes because you seem obviously to be referring to autism, not all vaccine injuries) as an autoimmune reaction? T cells infiltrating the CNS? Well, we know that ASDs aren't demyelinating diseases, don't involve the formation of sclerotic brain lesions, and aren't progressive. In fact, we do know that they're associated with an excess of synapses.

Set aside the barriers for a moment. What's the autoimmune target to impair synaptic pruning? Why would it cause "brain inflammation"? If you had a better conceptual vocabulary to free-associate with, you could at least have waved in the general direction of inhibition of the TSC1/2 protein complex, but that wouldn't easily get you "brain inflammation," and you'd still be stuck with figuring out an immune mechanism.

Back to the barrier, though, you might note that Stolp et al. point out that neuroinflammation precedes barrier disruption, which puts your assembly of disconnected concepts in the wrong order. In fact, if you want to invoke the "gut-brain," it's still in the wrong order (e.g., PMID 23551971). So, I tell ya what: howsabout you reverse-engineer that last one to work in the opposite direction?

"Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog. It’s amazing mainstream media gives him an ounce of credibility. Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury."

Pro-tip - when complaining about censorship, try to put more space between that claim and a boast that you've been allowed to post 50 some comments on a pro-healthy-children blog. Otherwise the contradiction is just too obvious, you know.

"CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR. "

It all makes sense now - the CDC created Age of Autism (with its lily white membership) to make fake claims of vaccine injury in white children, to cover up the real problem with vaccine injury to black children. Simple!

Two loose ends:

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination.

If that's a response to my observation that "these people weren’t tested immediately after vaccination," you completely failed to understand that it was a response to your invocation of B-cell maturation, which has nothing discernible to do with circulating rubella antibodies long after immunization.

Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog.

Could you point me to the other 47? I'm having a hell of a time finding them.

OK, a third loose end (previous two in moderation; I made the same error as Krebiozen):

Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.

You think there's "media censorship" of Krahling & Wlochowski? There's not exactly a lot of breaking news in such an action.

They’ll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn’t already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place.

So in the absence of currentevidence, Kevin is appealing to evidence that he believes will emerge in the future? I don't know, this faith-based approach to argumentation does not work for me.

And Orac is actually a doctor?

There is always the option of going to the appropriate professional and legal bodies to accuse him of practicing surgery without a qualification.

media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.</i<

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination.

Indeed, as we learned from Gardasil accusations, sometimes it takes the form of death by drowning or by car-crash.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

Vaccine Witchcraft injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination witchcraft.

Fixed that for you, Kevin.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad, thanks for your insights. Like you and most neurologists, Saunders is all brain and no guts.

Brain inflammation can be caused from both sides of the BBB, particularly of gut origin. And when I talk about vaccine injuries it includes epilepsy which i believe is of gut origin in a huge percentage of cases, perhaps the majority. No wonder you're having such difficulty finding my posts on previous Gorski blogs. Makes me wonder what else you're having a hard time researching.

There isn't one study about how any of the childhood vaccines affect flora balance. Nor is there even one study about how flora affects vaccine response leading to vaccine injury, a matter of microbial predisposition. Why not? Vaccine scientists fear the results to protect their pocketbooks in disregard of collateral damage that is vaccine injury. And then to mock the very serious, heartbreaking subject of vaccine injury as Gorski does is inhumane and irresponsible.

Earlier this year this story made headlines:
Multiple sclerosis 'linked to food bug'
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-25925658
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/267676.php
http://weill.cornell.edu/news/pr/2013/10/toxin-emitting-bacteria-being-…

Quote :
“We provide evidence that supports epsilon toxin’s ability to cause BBB permeability and show that epsilon toxin kills the brain’s myelin producing cells, oligodendrocytes; the same cells that die in MS lesions,” says Jennifer Linden of Weill Cornell Medical College, who presented the research. “We also show that epsilon toxin targets other cells types associated with MS inflammation such as the retinal vascular and meningeal cells. Epsilon toxin may be responsible for triggering MS.”
It's a continuation of research about clostridium bacteria toxins of gut origin as cause of MS including brain lesions. Here's the full recent study:
Isolation of Clostridium perfringens Type B in an Individual at First Clinical Presentation of Multiple Sclerosis Provides Clues for Environmental Triggers of the Disease
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076…

These same clostridium toxins are also a known cause of seizure:
Clostridium perfringens epsilon toxin causes excessive release of glutamate in the mouse hippocampus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10913875

Regarding autism, up to half in the worst cases also suffer epilepsy. Thanks, Narad, for inspiring my research into what's known about autism and and brain lesions/demyelination. This 2008 study revealed demyelination in 62.5% of autistic children:
Serum anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein antibodies in Egyptian autistic children.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19073846

Did you somehow miss that study?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad, thanks for your insights. Like you and most neurologists, Saunders is all brain and no guts.

Yes, I can see where you're committed to avoiding the former in application.

Brain inflammation can be caused from both sides of the BBB, particularly of gut origin.

Naked assertions don't cut it, General Patton.

And when I talk about vaccine injuries it includes epilepsy which i believe is of gut origin in a huge percentage of cases, perhaps the majority.

Fascinating. Perhaps you could submit that as a letter to some OMICS title.

No wonder you’re having such difficulty finding my posts on previous Gοrski blogs.

Non sequitur duly noted, as is the lack of, you know, actual links to them. And the incredibly stupid attempt at insult. Well played, once again.

Makes me wonder what else you’re having a hard time researching.

Oh, do tell. I want to understand the wonder.

There isn’t one study about how any of the childhood vaccines affect flora balance.

You lose six ways to Sunday.

Nor is there even one study about how flora affects vaccine response leading to vaccine injury, a matter of microbial predisposition. Why not?

Because you've pulled it out of your ass and not even been able to muster a defense? I suppose that's post hoc ergo propter hoc or something, but I imagine my drift is clear.

Vaccine scientists fear the results to protect their pocketbooks in disregard of collateral damage that is vaccine injury.

The results of what, again?

And then to mock the very serious, heartbreaking subject of vaccine injury as Gοrski does is inhumane and irresponsible.

The only thing I see being mocked is exploitative shіtwits such as yourself.

Earlier this year this story made headlines:
Multiple sclerosis ‘linked to food bug’

The relevance of this being what? You're just free-associating again, this time with a distinct stench of desperation. Has it ever occurred to you to defend your original rubella assertion?

Quote :
“We provide evidence that supports epsilon toxin’s ability to cause BBB permeability and show that epsilon toxin kills the brain’s myelin producing cells, oligodendrocytes; the same cells that die in MS lesions,”

You left off the self-referential "minus." Did you miss the part where I've already pointed out that none of this bears the slightest resemblance to ASDs?

It’s a continuation of research about clostridium bacteria toxins of gut origin as cause of MS including brain lesions.

See above.

Here’s the full recent study

Yah, I'm able to click on links myself. Even better, I can read what's on the other end. What's the N of the paydirt here? [Hint: "(data not shown)."]

These same clostridium toxins are also a known cause of seizure:
Clostridium perfringens epsilon toxin causes excessive release of glutamate in the mouse hippocampus.

You think that constitutes a "known cause" (of, basically, epilepsy, which is the same as multiple sclerosis, which is the same as ASD)?

Regarding autism, up to half in the worst cases also suffer epilepsy. Thanks, Narad, for inspiring my research into what’s known about autism and and brain lesions/demyelination.

Could your "inspired" "research" quantify "half in the worst cases"?

This 2008 study revealed demyelination in 62.5% of autistic children:
Serum anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein antibodies in Egyptian autistic children.

Um, no, it didn't "reveal" demyelination in anybody. This is the problem with merely substituting keyword searches for thought.

Did you somehow miss that study?

You mean like you did before having the magic words handed to you so that you could actually manage to fυck up reading an abstract? Gee, I guess so.

^ The cognoscenti will recognize one glaring error in the foregoing, but it's not crucial.

Document 84 in Tobinick v. Novella is recommended, BTW (citations omitted):

Here, Dr. Novella presented a detailed affidavit addressing the complete lack of interactivity with and connection to Florida. The burden then shifted back to Plaintiffs to produce evidence supporting their claim of personal jurisdiction. Instead, Tobinick provided an affidavit that attested to nothing except his conclusory allegations. For example, Tobinick states “Substantial activities which give rise to this action occurred in this district.” Well then, since Tobinick says so, perhaps we should all go home, since he has provided “evidence” in the form of an affidavit that attests to something that he could not possibly know anything about, from first-hand knowledge. Then again, since Tobinick is a dermatologist, pretending to be a neurologist, this is par for the course.

epilepsy which i believe is of gut origin in a huge percentage of cases, perhaps the majority

I know of some common varieties of epilepsy that are of genetic origin (linked to unusual forms of particular proteins). Others result from viral infection or head injury. Would you care to specify which varieties originate in the gut?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith Bell,
I fail to see how the hypothesis that MS is caused by a bacterial neurotoxin relates to the failed hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. Why would a measles vaccine, for example, affect gut flora in a qualitatively different way to a wild measles infection? Why would we expect an attenuated measles virus injected IM to affect gut flora at all?

This 2008 study revealed demyelination in 62.5% of autistic children:

An anti-MAG level barely above the normal range (PDF) does not equate to demyelination.

You aren't the first researcher by keyword on PubMed to have landed here. In such circumstances I usually point out that if you use that methodology you can find evidence to support my hypothesis that autism is caused by the immunomodulatory chemicals in broccoli. If you look hard enough, ignore anything contradictory, and misinterpret enough data to fit your hypothesis, you can find evidence to support almost any bizarre theory you can dream up. If you start with a belief, and look for evidence to support it, you will find it. Many people have gone down that rabbit-hole, and few return to the sunlit lands.

If, however, you are interested in finding out what is really going on, you might find it more rewarding to take a step back and see what picture is painted by all the available evidence. What evidence fits that picture, how much evidence is there, what quality is it, what COI's do the authors have? What evidence doesn't fit, and what is its quality etc.? What evidence is missing? Can any natural experiments throw any light on the question?

I know this requires a great deal more hard work than just playing with Google Scholar. That's why training as a scientist takes so long, and why competently carried out research is often expensive.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad is apparently having hard time dealing with the fact that gut imbalances lead to brain inflammation, instead using the fear-based approach of denigrating the messenger. Can you say old school? All brain and no guts, I love that expression. Treating epilepsy and autism from the neck up as a way of life is Narad's practice. Not surprising as that's the way the world works these days, but it's changing rapidly as people begin to understand the importance of the gut-brain. Has Saunders written even one sentence about it?

That MS is now seen as originating in the gut is just an example of how a vaccine may cause brain damage beginning in the gut. Other neurodegenerative/autoimmune diseases such as Parkinson's are also now viewed as of intestinal origin.

Yet there's no vaccine science about how vaccines affect the gut. Not a page, while vaccine scientists are busy harnessing probiotic adjuvants because they know vaccine response relies on flora. What's unknown is how vaccines affect the flora present which then affect the immune system. And vaccine scientists don't yet acknowledge the fact that people have different flora balances. The bumbling Dr. Gregory Poland thinks all humans are alike and wonders why they respond differently to vaccines. But he's only looking at the hardware (genes) and avoiding the software (microbes).

Krebiozen, I'm appreciating your calm approach as opposed to dealing with Narad's childish view that the gut doesn't affect the brain. Actually, I'll accept being labeled "shitwit" as a complement as we should be testing meconium and infant stool routinely in order to assess risk of vaccine injury. Narad, have you heard of PCR stool testing? I suggest you send one of your meat-based samples to GDX as you're likely imbalanced, high in sulfur-reducing bacteria resulting in neurotoxic levels of propionic acid. Or, you may have very high levels of yeast from consuming all that fluffy cotton candy. What's certain is you're low in Actinobacteria resulting in a faulty immune system, unable to withstand vaccination without injury, leave alone have a decent immune response. Can you say vaccine failure?

Krebby, you ask a great, albeit incomplete question: "Why would a measles vaccine, for example, affect gut flora in a qualitatively different way to a wild measles infection? Why would we expect an attenuated measles virus injected IM to affect gut flora at all?"

Did you know vaccination is also blamed for causing diabetes and MS? These are matters of flora shifting, both diseases ameliorated via dietary measures. The infant microbiome develops over time. Exactly how and in what order is studied and this information appears crucial to understanding vaccine reaction and response. MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed. We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven't even breastfed, so they're low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25002669

Your question, Kreb, is reminiscent of the argument that breast milk contains more aluminum than a vaccine in disregard of the fact that injection and ingestion are two different things. Vaccines may affect gut flora balance, it's not been studied, but what may be more important to vaccine injury is what bugs are present at time of injection, also never studied.

Please find me a lab willing to receive crowdfunding because Pharma will never approach the subject. If they're lucky, probiotic adjuvants will also lower risk of vaccine injury, a huge bonus when all they were really trying to do is improve vaccine efficacy. They don't care about injury, instead toeing the false party line that vaccines don't cause autism. Just as bad is the fallacy without evidence echoed in paper after paper that the fetal gastrointestinal tract is sterile, condoning vaccination within 12 hours of birth per cruel CDC schedule. Vaccines can and do cause autism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsLuR3X6cpg&feature=youtu.be&list=PLJpP…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Narad,

I was wondering about the microflora thing before I sat down to read this morning.
And, from the Discover blog mice study in your google search I found a link to this study.

Maybe we should be giving vancomycin to more of those children with late onset (regressive) autism?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12173102

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Mephistopheles O'Brien #113

Some of those sexy scientist suits are sporting blonds. This reminds me of an old anecdotal:

A man in a gown was running out of a hospital ward screaming, holding his groin, and being chased by a blond nurse with a pot of boiling water. The doctor grabbed her (I presume the lid was firmly affixed to pot so as not to scauld them both from slopping inertia) -- No, nurse, I said "prick his boil".

Tim, that story is not an anecdote (not an "anecdotal", please take some lessons in Basic English Comprehension and Grammar), but a joke.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

And oddly enough, some anti-vaxxers like TMR's MamaMac seem to imagine that anti-biotics lead to or worse autism.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

WORSEN

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Thanks, Krebiozen!

That's why replication is so important in science. Which the anti-vaxers and the cranks never seem to figure out.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Earlier this year this story made headlines:

Ah, Research by Press Release. More accurately, "headlines were made for this story".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Maybe we should be giving vancomycin to more of those children with late onset (regressive) autism?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12173102

That paper is only one stage in Finegold's interminable career of sampling kids' bowel and stomach contents, from 2004. He was reporting that a sample of autistic kids were housing more Clostridium species than the normal controls. And he squeezed another paper out of the same data, in a 2008 Medical Hypotheses.

He couldn't replicate the data, however, and in 2010 he was telling an AoA conference that Firmicutes (the bacterial phylum containing Clostridium) “was particularly high in the control group”, whereas a group of autistic subjects had more than their fair share of a different bacterial phylum, Bacteroidetes.

By 2011 Finegold had DNA-sequenced more poop samples, and moved on to a claim that the difference lay in a quite different bacterium: "Desulfovibrio was more common in autistic subjects than in controls" [again, Medical Hypotheses].

Nor should we forget his first report, from 2002, that lactobacteria were the specific variety over-represented in an autistic sample.

This all inspired Hornig and colleagues to go on their own fishing expeditions, and at one point they were reporting an autistic / normal difference in Sutterella bacteria; things seem to have gone quiet since then.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith seems to have no shortage of bright ideas of what's caused by "imbalanced" intestinal flora:

But it's not limited to seizure as I also make the case for gut origin of now mysterious glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, optic neuritis, optic neuropathy, macular degeneration . . .

Diabetic retinopathy is "now mysterious"? Perhaps it should be renamed "Mysterious retinopathy that coincidentally occurs during diabetes".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad, you're invited for dinner. We can talk all about the gut-connection. Know anything about photosensitive seizure? And since it appears you weren't breastfed, we'll have something with plenty of GOS to feed your reduced or absent bifidobacteria. GOS is a prebiotic, btw.

herr doktor, so you think you know what causes diabetes? How may I invest in your next project? Why do you think diabetes is rapidly halted with gastric bypass surgery? Might it have something to do with an infected duodenum?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

Thanks for the additional info, herr doktor!

I might have guessed it was dubious since none of my neurologists ever discussed it as a possible origin of my seizure disorder. I suspect a genetic cause because my sister had childhood seizures which she outgrew and most of my nieces and nephews had febrile seizures as infants.

Since my father traces his ancestry back to the Pennsylvania Dutch, genetics are a likely reason why he and his father both had Parkinson's. Fortunately, I haven't shown signs of that.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

*gut-eye connection

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

squirrel, epilepsy has a genetic component, i.e., Dravet Syndrome, where vaccine scientists blame genes when vaccination initiates the disorder in disregard of microbes regulating genes. Microbes turn genes on and off like light switches such as when people test positive for Celiac disease, then negative after gluten-free diet.

Throw genes out the window for a moment and consider microbial predisposition, or do you still believe colonization begins at birth like most scientists?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/29/science/human-microbiome-may-be-seede…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Keith: Try again. Gastric bypass surgery helps only those with Type II diabetes, and studies have shown it is probably due to the weight loss. It does nothing for Type I diabetes (although the weight loss may help decrease the amount of insulin needed, those persons *still* need insulin.) Nothing about the gut. (having undergone the procedure myself, I can readily vouch that the only effect to the gut is the ....uh...frequency of elimination while on a clear liquid diet for 7 days. The happiest day of my life was when my doctor told me I could start full liquids!

Microbes turn genes on and off like light switches such as when people test positive for Celiac disease, then negative after gluten-free diet.

You're really attached to making proclamations that immediately demonstrate that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about and couldn't care less, don't you? The presence of autoantibodies doesn't have a G-ddamned thing to do with microbes "turning genes on and off." The antibodies go away because you've removed the freaking antigen.

Narad, you’re invited for dinner. We can talk all about the gut-connection.

Perhaps you could go all Iron Chef and have meconium as the theme ingredient.

Calm your nerves, Narad, no one wants you to hurt yourself. I was talking about genetic testing, not antibody screening. Regardless, have you ever researched microbial regulation of antibody production? Begin with bifidobacteria and Peyer's patches, there's plenty of science. Want links, please yell.

Dawn, it has nothing to do with weight loss as people toss their diabetes meds within two weeks of surgery. Unfortunately, remission rates are high, probably because the microbial imbalance grows back. The latest study focuses on gut hormones in disregard of microbes regulating gut hormone secretion from epithelial cells:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140710081302.htm

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

I was talking about genetic testing, not antibody screening.

I'm sure this would have been extremely amusing, save for the flounce. You think microbes make the alleles disappear?

Narad, you do know meconium isn’t sterile, right?

Sadly, you don't realize that you're slow on the uptake. Maybe if you scrunch up your face real hard-like, you'll get it.

This one turns out to be pretty good. Keith asserts this:

Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog.

When asked where they are, he comes back with this:

No wonder you’re having such difficulty finding my posts on previous Gorski blogs. Makes me wonder what else you’re having a hard time researching.

Guess where this whining actually originates? The SBM Facebook page.

Apparently, Mr. Bell has trouble figuring out where he is versus where he has been on top of everything else.

How may I invest in your next project?

Thanks, but I've already published about diabetic retinopathy. If you want to shift the goalposts from DR being "mysterious" to diabetes being mysterious, I can put you in touch with an endocrinologist.

when I talk about vaccine injuries it includes epilepsy

Yes, this accounts for the complete absence of epilepsy from the pre-vaccination medical record.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Oct 2014 #permalink

I want to see Keith come up with a study comparing epilepsy in vax/unvaxxed. That would be the type of thing I'd do if I had a hypothesis to test...

Narad, your research skills are breathtaking. Did you bother to click on blog I was commenting on? That's where you'll find 50 comments. So far, I've participated on three (3) Gorski blogs without a single response from Lord Gorski who just sits there watching his pawns get pummeled. There's nothing "respectful" about him. Narad, you look sillier by the moment, though I'm certain you have something good to offer.

herr doktor, I suggest you research microbial cause of diabetes; there's plenty to find. Here's a start:
http://news.ku.dk/all_news/2012/2012.9/gut-bacteria-could-cause-diabete…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

A little late here, but over the weekend I had an thought....

Do the anti-vax crowd vaccinate their pets?

Naturally, this came to me while my cat was getting his shots.

I have a blog. I did not realize that somewhere in the fine print it was mandated that I have to answer everyone who posts comments there.

(Is Keith, aka "Mr Panties-in-a-wad" for real?)

I want to see Keith come up with a study comparing epilepsy in vax/unvaxxed. That would be the type of thing I’d do if I had a hypothesis to test…

The results might go the wrong way. Some cases of temporal-lobe epilepsy result from encephalitis from vaccine-preventable diseases.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Since my oldest had a massive seizure from actually getting an illness before its vaccine was available, I am always asking which vaccine causes more seizures than the diseases. I never get an answer.

By the way, yesterday I got a pure crazy town response on the Violent Metaphors blog (which for some reason Wordpress does not like me linking to) that I must share:

God hates vaccines.

We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.” The word “kind” could be translated DNA, as kind refers to species. This is the mark of God on His creation. When profligate man intentionally destroys that mark and substitutes his own mark, that is the epitome of evil. Vaccines, containing DNA of monkeys, dogs, bacteria, and other creatures including mankind (aborted human fetal cells are components of several vaccines), are abominable for three specific reasons.

First, they obscure the DNA of mankind. There are natural barriers to prevent the crossing of the species. That is why diseases don’t usually cross over to man from animals unless they have been manipulated in a lab. The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race. Thus, the Flood came to save man and the Messianic bloodline by wiping out the corrupted DNA; are we not told that Noah was “perfect in his GENErations”?

Second, vaccines are injected into the blood. “The life is in the blood.” Yes, they are intramuscular but that goes directly into the blood. Dr. Tim O’Shea documents that when the administration of vaccines was switched to hypodermics as compared to simple lancets that merely scraped the skin, the rate of vaccine death skyrocketed. We are commanded not to eat or drink the blood, which is a rebellious practice by those who do not obey God. If eating of blood is forbidden, how much moreso is injecting it into the very life of mankind?

Third, we are created with a most marvelous immune system that is intended to protect us against disease. Vaccines defy that divine system. Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely. This is similar to what happens when a vaccine is injected into the body versus a natural immune response to pathogens.

Vaccines, in violation of these eternal commands and divine design, are therefore damned.

The “power” of vaccines is in “accord with the activity of Satan” and a “false wonder.” No true immunity is conferred. Immunization via vaccines is a lie. A lie is deception. Deception is not for God’s people. He desires and commands us to know the truth. However, as God Himself is a warrior who fights for His people when they obey but fights against them when they disobey (the entirety of the Old Testament documents this), He uses deception as a strategy of warfare. This is a hard truth, but if we embrace what God has forbidden, we are damned:

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

So here’s one for you Chris. I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma, for they are not of God and I am all for God, so I have wisdom. There has been no decline of disease anywhere, kids are still getting measles and all the other diseases, even ones who had the vaccines. Vaccines, as I said, change the DNA and that is not of God because he created US and our DNA. People need to actually use their own brains instead of allowing “man” to program. I swear you all have chips in your brains being programmed on a daily basis. You are believing all that you are told and yet simply put, that’s still not evidence. Evidence is seeing it with your own eyes, such as I have with the children who were vaccinated, who either died or were maimed or just sickly beings their entire lives. Proof is in the pudding, as they say, not lies from the Big Pharma. I actually feel sorry for people who are so brain washed they don’t even know how to use their brains anymore. So, say what you want, call me names, tell me I am stupid but the question here is, how much do you really think you know when you really know nothing at all. No proof, just copied and paste words from liars. Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol

“It is important to point out that our discovery demonstrates a correlation. The big question now is whether the changes in gut bacteria can affect the development of type 2 diabetes or whether the changes simply reflect that the person is suffering from type 2 diabetes.”
- Quoted from the Science Daily article referenced above. So while it is possible that gut bacteria could affect the course of type 2 diabetes (and perhaps even cause it), it is not proven that it does so - at least not by this study.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Chris:

This whackaloon claims that diseases don't jump from animals to man unless "manipulated in a laboratory." Then how does he explain why so many species can catch rabies? Or the flu?

Heaven help him.

Oh, look who can't stick a flounce.

Did you bother to click on blog I was commenting on? That’s where you’ll find 50 comments.

Facebook isn't a "blog," genius, and it makes your comment here – not to mention your evasive response – incomprehensibly stupid.

Oh. My. God. Narad, I know your head isn't made of wood. Now read this slowly. Here's the link you provided to a Facebook conversation. Great work, btw, finding it, I'm very proud of you.
https://www.facebook.com/ScienceBasedMed/posts/544671105659769?comment_…

Now if you click on the Gorski blog linked at the very beginning of the Facebook post, you'll find the 50 comments. Have a field day!

I should probably explain how to click on something. Basically, you just push down on top your mouse with your cursor on top of the object you wish to see. I trust you'll figure that part out, but if not we'll have some clicking lessons at dinner. Again, I'm very proud of you.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

My work is done on this heinous blog entry. Take care all, cya ’round town.

How can we miss you, if you won't go away?

Seriously - I'd say he's a bad penny, but that's even too cliche for me.

I didn't know there even was a SBM FB page, which isn't a blog, whatever Keith thinks. Still, Keith has answered his own question as to why Orac and Harriet Hall haven't replied to his comments. They are apparently too dumbfounded by Keith's extraordinary scientific insights to respond. Of course.

Personally I love a good bizarre hypothesis, but I struggle to see the connection between vaccines and gut dysbiosis.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith Bell,
I just noticed your previously moderated comment.

That MS is now seen as originating in the gut is just an example of how a vaccine may cause brain damage beginning in the gut. Other neurodegenerative/autoimmune diseases such as Parkinson’s are also now viewed as of intestinal origin.

How is the study you cited in any way an example of a vaccine causing "brain damage beginning in the gut"? The researchers induced an autoimmune disease in mice by injecting them with spinal cord homogenate, purified myelin, myelin proteins or peptides of these proteins. This was designed to stimulate antibodies against myelin. How would any childhood vaccine do this?

Yet there’s no vaccine science about how vaccines affect the gut. Not a page,

You must have missed Narad's link to a number of studies looking at this at #128.

What’s certain is you’re low in Actinobacteria resulting in a faulty immune system, unable to withstand vaccination without injury, leave alone have a decent immune response. Can you say vaccine failure?

I assume you are referring to this study which found an association between Actinobacteria and a positive immune response to oral vaccines. We don't know if the association is the result of the bacteria of the bacteria are the result of a more robust immune system e.g. competing bacteria are better kept under control.

Krebby, you ask a great, albeit incomplete question: “Why would a measles vaccine, for example, affect gut flora in a qualitatively different way to a wild measles infection? Why would we expect an attenuated measles virus injected IM to affect gut flora at all?”

No answers to that incomplete question?

Did you know vaccination is also blamed for causing diabetes and MS?
Not by any reputable researchers, it isn't. A number of studies have found no links with either.

These are matters of flora shifting, both diseases ameliorated via dietary measures. The infant microbiome develops over time. Exactly how and in what order is studied and this information appears crucial to understanding vaccine reaction and response.

Maybe. The evidence for diet ameliorating either type 2 diabetes (except through weight loss, of course) or MS is poor.

MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed.

MMR doesn't cause autism, period. That at least is clear.

We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven’t even breastfed, so they’re low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:

The study you linked to is about oral vaccines, not injected vaccines like the hepatitis B vaccines. As I noted above, the association between bifidobacteria and oral vaccine response may be because a robust immune system results in healthy gut flora, rather than vice versa. We don't know,

Your question, Kreb, is reminiscent of the argument that breast milk contains more aluminum than a vaccine in disregard of the fact that injection and ingestion are two different things.

You still don't seem to have grasped the fact that aluminum adjuvants are poorly soluble. They remain in the muscle at the injection site slowly dissolving in the interstitial fluids, and are released into the bloodstream in very similar daily quantities to aluminum absorbed from the gut, over a period of weeks.

Vaccines may affect gut flora balance, it’s not been studied, but what may be more important to vaccine injury is what bugs are present at time of injection, also never studied.

Maybe they do, though I struggle to see how. You seem to have seized upon an idea with practically no evidence to support it and have run off with it and disappeared over the horizon (or down a rabbit-hole should you prefer that metaphor).

Just as bad is the fallacy without evidence echoed in paper after paper that the fetal gastrointestinal tract is sterile, condoning vaccination within 12 hours of birth per cruel CDC schedule.

Firstly, we thought the fetal gastrointestinal tract was sterile until quite recently, now we know it isn't. Secondly, why would the fetal gastrointestinal tract not being sterile contraindicate hepatitis B vaccination at birth? I think eliminating hepatitis B is a fantastic goal, and the hepatitis B vaccine, that is made from proteins produced by genetically engineered baker's yeast, as an amazing piece of technology that will save countless lives and inestimable human misery. The best evidence suggests it is incredibly safe.

Vaccines can and do cause autism:

No they don't. Study after study has produced results that are consistent with them having nothing to do with autism, apart from preventing those cases due to CRS.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Sorry. I reread that comment twice and still failed to notice the missing blockquote closing tag.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

bad penny

I dated her in college. She was a nice young lady.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Now read this slowly. Here’s the link you provided to a Facebook conversation. Great work, btw, finding it, I’m very proud of you.

"I must have posted on this page 40 times without even one response from Dr. Gorski."

Congratulations, you committed the same error there. Let's review your remark here, in relevant part, one more time: "even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog." This is Orac's "sad blog." SBM is a group blog.

What I did in the first place was more straightforward. Did I bother going in and counting? No, because it didn't occur to me that you could screw up twice in the same fashion.

Shall we count your entries on that SBM article? Let's:

Nos. 60, 60(2), 64, 64(3)(1), 64(4), 64(6), 64(6)(1)(1), 64(6)(1)(1)(1)(1), etc. These are mostly replies to either yourself or other people. It is absurd to think that the author would bother to reply to the latter, as they're merely a case of wasting other people's time.

I count exactly two comments (60 and 64) that could even remotely have a chance of garnering a response from the author. Your few comments on the September 1 follow-up are mainly moronic insults.

What's amazing is that even this has been like pulling teeth, when you could have just said "they're at SBM." By contrast, you have completely run away from more substantive criticisms. This is the best you can muster.

G-ddammit, I did it again, despite trying not to. Comment in moderation.

A little late here, but over the weekend I had an thought….

Do the anti-vax crowd vaccinate their pets?

While there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about some veterinary vaccines (on the feline front, vis-a-vis injection-site sarcomas, FeLK and adjuvanted rabies; there's now a three-year canarypox-vectored vaccine for the latter), the usual suspects do the usual thing on this topic, as well.

G-ddammit, I did it again, despite trying not to.

It's annoying, but also kind of funny that our host's name is treated as a profanity here. Or maybe that's just me.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Krebiozen:

I think it makes sense, but I have an enormous self-editorial blind spot when it comes to combining quotation and composition.

I see that it had another discharge that was in moderation.

Krebiozen, I’m appreciating your calm approach as opposed to dealing with Narad’s childish view that the gut doesn’t affect the brain. Actually, I’ll accept being labeled "shіtwit" as a complement [sic] as we should be testing meconium and infant stool routinely in order to assess risk of vaccine injury.

Shall we recall the original context, Keith? You were moaning as so:

And then to mock the very serious, heartbreaking subject of vaccine injury as [Orac] does is inhumane and irresponsible.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to stand behind the characterization. You, on the other hand, seem to wish to divorce it from the reason for its coming about in the first place.

It's an awful like your cowardice when called out on, oh, I dunno, your assertion that circulating rubella antibodies are controlled by gut flora. Remember that one?

Kreb, thanks for the dialogue. I'm not sure you understand the reciprocal interaction between microbes and the immune system. It's not possible to have a good immune system without balanced flora. This is why probiotic adjuvants are studied.

The new stool microbiota study I cited does address parenteral vaccines, it's not just about oral vaccines.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25002669

And, thanks, I did miss Narad's attempted research about how vaccines affect flora, the hyperlinked Google page. To clarify, I meant there are no studies about CHILDHOOD vaccines and flora. At the top of Narad's page is the 2004 paper about the cholera vaccine significantly increasing gram-negative bacteria, not a good thing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14965834

There are a scant few others not revealed by Narad's valiant research approaching the subject:
"Our study indicates that vaccination against a common colonizer affects microbiota composition and structure. This finding underlines the need for more detailed understanding of microbiota dynamics and interactions between its inhabitants. Overall, because infants might be vulnerable to community disruptions and dysbiosis, we recommend that new trials, such as studies on efficacy of broader pneumococcal coverage vaccines, consider the effect of vaccination on the commensal flora in its totality instead of only on a single species." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3901477/

And the new typhoid vaccine study states: "However, to date, no comprehensive studies have been undertaken to examine the gastrointestinal microbiota in relation to vaccine administration and if there is a discernible alteration in the community following vaccine administration."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0062…

This field is in its infancy. But there should be no "struggle" to understand how the gut is capable of damaging the brain both in and out of the womb. Gut-brain is a two-way street, a recipe for vaccine injury requiring study.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Blockquote>“However, to date, no comprehensive studies have been undertaken to examine the gastrointestinal microbiota in relation to vaccine administration and if there is a discernible alteration in the community following vaccine administration.”
I read down as far as the negative conclusion:
Immunization with either a single dose or four-dose vaccination schedule of Ty21a did not appear to disrupt the composition, diversity or stability of the bacterial community

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

To clarify, I meant there are no studies about CHILDHOOD vaccines and flora.

That's a novel interpretation of "There isn’t one study about how any of the childhood vaccines affect flora balance" and "Yet there’s no vaccine science about how vaccines affect the gut. Not a page...," particularly given PMID 22828641.

I get the strong sense that your usual stages have left you unaccustomed to anything more than ritual bathing as a response.

epilepsy has a genetic component, i.e., Dravet Syndrome, where vaccine scientists blame genes when vaccination initiates the disorder in disregard of microbes regulating genes. Microbes turn genes on and off like light switches

Would you care to specify which genes are being turned on or off in the case of Dravet Syndrome? IIRC, it's an autosomal-dominant condition... each nerve cell is expressing two copies of the gene for a particular ion-channel protein, a normal version and a damaged version, and the damaged copies of the protein are enough to screw up brain function.
In your scenario -- where vaccination alters the gut bacteria so that they reach up to the brain and switch genes on and off in every cell simultaneously -- are they somehow turning off the normal gene while leaving the damaged gene alone? Or are they turning on the damaged version, which previously had not been producing damaged proteins?

Would you care to specify which infant vaccine is responsible for this?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Alright, Narad, I appreciate you bringing it back to the rubella mystery and why I believe flora play a role in African Americans producing twice as many antibodies as other groups.

Firstly, people across the globe have different flora balances based on ancestral dietary habits. Secondly, flora are known to affect antibody production. I like to focus on bifidobacteria because it's known some groups are reduced or absent in bifido including some Africans such as the Hazda who don't have dairy in their diets (same with Koreans where autism was found more than double the USA rate in 2011 perhaps not just based on different measurement techniques). Combining this with probiotic adjuvant vaccine research finding bifidobacteria crucial to vaccine response, I wonder if reduced bifido may indicate a lack of protection leading to injury.

But why double the antibodies? Lack of regulation by flora? Or flora doing a better job?
http://www.microbecolhealthdis.net/index.php/mehd/article/view/7838
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC368237/
http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4468/2/4/535

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Good point Narad re: PMID 22828641. This new paper may shed some light:
" Finally, TLR5-mediated sensing of the microbiota also impacted antibody responses to the inactivated polio vaccine, but not to adjuvanted vaccines or the live-attenuated yellow fever vaccine."
http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(14)00303-3

bimler, I don't have the answers and need to learn more about it.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

This new paper may shed some light

How does a paper about TIV vaccination "shed light" on one about rotavirus vaccination that found no effect? Is there some reason that you omitted "antibody responses in germ-free or antibiotic-treated mice were impaired" from the fruit of your keyword scrounging?

How does this relate to any of your hokum vaccine scaremongering? Why are you so evasive?

I don’t have the answers and need to learn more about it.

Fair enough. I urge you to consider the possibility that no further answers are required, i.e. that the molecular genetic account of Dravet syndrome is sufficient.
Bear in mind that penetrance is high... if you are born with a damaged version of that particular gene, you are very likely to develop the symptoms; so if vaccine-induced changes in gut flora are a necessary step along the way, those changes must happen in every case. Occam's Razor invites the question, why invoke two explanations when one is sufficient?

Bear in mind as well that Dravet syndrome shows up in the first year of infancy; and that in France in the 1970s, Dravet's case studies of a particular form of childhood convulsion would only have received DTP and (I think) oral polio vaccine.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

The point is vaccines are different and affect microbes differently. Perhaps the rotavirus vaccine doesn't shift flora while another vaccine does . . . but perhaps rotavirus vaccine response is still reliant on flora.

Far from evasive, I've been as generous as possible. Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit's rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/av/2014/720585/

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit’s rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?

The first author's track record of egregious research incompetence is not such as to encourage discussion.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

bimler, let’s also consider that Dravet accounts for only 2.5% of all vaccination-related seizures.

"Vaccination-related seizures"? For someone who does not know all the answers, you seem to have made up your mind.
I raised Dravet syndrome because you singled it out in comment #148 as a prototypical effect of vaccination, suggesting that you had some evidence.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

The point is vaccines are different and affect microbes differently.

Wait, I thought it was the other way around. Remember rubella? Oh, wait, you seem to have disgorged another sample for the lab. I'm sure that it shall prove to have all the hallmarks of metabolic richness as your earlier efforts.

Perhaps the rotavirus vaccine doesn’t shift flora while another vaccine does . . . but perhaps rotavirus vaccine response is still reliant on flora.

So you have nothing resembling a coherent response to the simple question "How does a paper about TIV vaccination 'shed light' on one about rotavirus vaccination that found no effect?"

Far from evasive,

Tell me about the "light switches" again, Keith.

I’ve been as generous as possible.

"Generous"? How have you been "generous"? People have been wasting their time with content-bearing replies while all you've done is chase your tail and lick your balls. Jesus Christ, in the space of several hours, I've picked up more on the immunology of celiac than you, apparently, have ever felt the need to bother with, given that you can just make grand pronouncement and run the fυck away from them when challenged.

You are an empty suit. You don't even try. You are a posturing fraud who is well suited to be trying to establish an ecological niche in the intestinal flora of Sayer Fυcking Ji, where, I suspect, even your overgrowth is likely to be limited by competition for nutrients.

Did you not read the abstract or the paper? You skip over so many things, Narad, we should call you "Skippy."

Here's the link again, an example of how vaccine response changes based on microbiota and type of vaccine :
http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(14)00303-3
" Finally, TLR5-mediated sensing of the microbiota also impacted antibody responses to the inactivated polio vaccine, but not to adjuvanted vaccines or the live-attenuated yellow fever vaccine. These results reveal an unappreciated role for gut microbiota in promoting immunity to vaccination."

Did you know even one thing about this subject before October 2 when I chimed-in? I sincerely doubt it based on your responses. Sending you an invoice. You should be thankful. Try to add something for a change.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Why bring up Celiac disease? You probably think it's a matter of gluten in wheat without knowing gliadin is part of the fungal cell wall and what that implies: small intestinal fungal overgrowth (SIFO).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19549274

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

The first author’s track record of egregious research incompetence is not such as to encourage discussion.

Hey, it could be fun. Let's revisit Keith's assertion:

Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit’s rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?

Take it away, Laura:

"Additionally, a baboon endogenous virus strain M7 was detected, likely due to the monkey cell line in which RotaTeq was produced from."

Um, "due to"? This cell line was established in 1964 (PDF).

Oh, wait:

"A sample of the RotaTeq vaccine that had been previously shown to contain PCV DNA was included for analysis but the PCV-contaminated Rotarix vaccine was not available for analysis. The sample of RotaTeq vaccine tested positive for rotavirus A and baboon endogenous virus, as previously reported by Victoria and colleagues [17]. The origin of the baboon endogenous virus is assumed to be related to the African green monkey-derived Vero cell line used in its manufacture and cross-hybridization of its endogenous retroviruses to the baboon endogenous retrovirus probes [17]."

This is plagiarism, BTW, Laura, except that you omitted one word and changed another: "The origin of the baboon endogenous retrovirus signal."

I get the strong sense that cross-hybridization represents what's known as a "false positive" here, Laura. Please drop Keith a line.

Did you not read the abstract or the paper?

I read the abstract, Keith, and I asked you a question. Here it is, for the third time:

How does a paper about TIV vaccination “shed light” on one about rotavirus vaccination that found no effect? Is there some reason that you omitted “antibody responses in germ-free or antibiotic-treated mice were impaired” from the fruit of your keyword scrounging?

Try answering the question this time. By the way, I sense that repetition might be a prerequisite to dragging answers out of you. Remember this?

Did you not read the abstract or the paper?

Did you read the paper, Keith? You certainly don't seem to have understood the abstract.

"We further demonstrated that TLR5 deficiency or antibiotic treatment did not affect alum-adjuvanted or live-attenuated vaccines, while unadjuvanted vaccines such as TIV and IPOL induced antibody responses through TLR5 and microbiota-dependent mechanisms"

Now, what "light" does this "shed" on García-López et al., again?

@Krebiozen,

in safety studies the detergent used in the Roundup mixture was more toxic than the glyphosate itself

I'd think the detergent and glyphosate need to be looked at how they may act combined together.

Celiac, gliadin, gluten, FuckUp(tm)
http://sustainablepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Glyphosate_II_Sa…

==================
@Narad

I found a nice(??) beer. Terrible rating. Nice price. I like it. I guess I didn't need to be 'pickled' all these years. This stuff seems to not kick one into that CNS depressant stage but rather lets one stay sort of 'elevated'.

Goose Island 312 Urban Wheat 4.2%
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1146/17141/

^^ not exactly 'hoppy' but there is a certain something.

Another *wheat beer* though. It's probably got Roundup.

^ Please try to ignore the second use of boldface in #195. Back to Victoria et al.:

"As 41% of the 13,520 pyrosequence reads from the Rotateq were of primate origin, it is likely that the SRV sequence detected was the result of leakage of host cell DNA, including proviral DNA. To further analyze the Rotateq SRV DNA, the entire coding region was sequenced, revealing 94% nucleotide identity to SRV-1 (GenBank accession no. U85506) (35). The inactivating mutations of proviral SRV-1 genomes in baboons (35) were not observed in the Rotateq-associated SRV genome. However, a frame-shifting single-nucleotide insertion in the polymerase gene was identified at genomic position 3726, providing evidence that genetically defective SRV proviral DNA is present in Vero cells and in vaccines derived from these cells."

Yes, it's Manimals all the way down.

I was using the new TLR5 study demonstrating how some vaccines may not be microbiota-dependent, thus may not shift flora as apparently with rotavirus vaccine.

Similarly, recall your gripe about my mention of microbiota and B-cell maturation, there are some viruses where antibodies are not required for immunity, just B-cells.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120301143426.htm

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith,

I’m not sure you understand the reciprocal interaction between microbes and the immune system.

I don't think anyone does yet. I don't doubt the gut plays an important role in immunity, but I think it is far too early to leap to the conclusions you have come to.

It’s not possible to have a good immune system without balanced flora.

I don't think that's clear. Perhaps it isn't possible to have balanced flora without a robust immune system. We don't know how much one affects the other.

This is why probiotic adjuvants are studied.

I thought you said this area wasn't being studied at all. As I understand it probiotics are thought to enhance the immune response to vaccines because intestinal immune cells and epithelial cells are being exposed to foreign bacteria. This isn't about establishing a healthy microbiota (though this is a good thing, of course), it's about giving the immune system a prod, just as other adjuvants do.
In this study either lactobacillus or a placebo was administered before a mucosal flu vaccine. Those given lactobacillus showed no difference in response to the flu vaccine, except for a transient and barely statistically significant difference in response to one strain of flu virus.

Similar approaches are using surface proteins from pathogenic bacteria to improve response to mucosal vaccines, a similar but different approach to using live friendly probiotic bacteria.

The new stool microbiota study I cited does address parenteral vaccines, it’s not just about oral vaccines.

You're correct, apologies; I shouldn't try to digest new material in the early hours (I'm running at GMT). My point stands though, that we don't know whether the healthy gut flora, or the healthy immune system comes first. It seems very likely that the antigens a person is exposed to in their microbiota will affect their immune response, but I don't see any evidence that parenteral vaccines affect the microbiota, which is what I thought you were suggesting. What evidence is there that the current childhood vaccines affect the microbiota, leading to all the disorders you claim they do?

At the top of Narad’s page is the 2004 paper about the cholera vaccine significantly increasing gram-negative bacteria, not a good thing.

This is an oral vaccine, so it isn't really surprising that it has an effect on gut flora.

Our study indicates that vaccination against a common colonizer affects microbiota composition and structure.

We would expect vaccination against bacteria that are part of the microbiota to affect the microbiota, wouldn't we?

And the new typhoid vaccine study states: “However, to date, no comprehensive studies have been undertaken to examine the gastrointestinal microbiota in relation to vaccine administration and if there is a discernible alteration in the community following vaccine administration.”

Another oral vaccine that we might expect to affect the microbiota. I still don't see why the MMR, or other vaccines, would be expected to affect a child's microbiota in a qualitatively different way to wild measles, mumps or rubella infection, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

This field is in its infancy. But there should be no “struggle” to understand how the gut is capable of damaging the brain both in and out of the womb.

I never said I struggled to understand how gut dysfunction or gut dysbiosis could result in effects on the brain. Several bacteria produce toxins that can have serious adverse effects on the brain and other organs, and increased gut permeability can lead to illness (though not as frequently as some claim - I think leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth is largely a myth perpetuated by CAM practitioners). I said, "I struggle to see the connection between vaccines and gut dysbiosis". I don't understand why you think the childhood vaccine schedule has an adverse effect on the microbiota resulting in adverse effects on the brain.

Gut-brain is a two-way street, a recipe for vaccine injury requiring study.

Which specific vaccine injuries do you believe are due to vaccine effects on the gut and why? What evidence shows a higher incidence of these vaccine injuries in vaccine recipients? The evidence I have seen suggests that serious vaccine-related adverse events are very rare. What was once thought to be vaccine encephalopathy now appears to be due to a genetic mutation in a sodium channel or to mitochondrial disorders; the CDC recommends that children with these disorders are vaccinated.

Multiple studies have found no link between vaccines and autism, autoimmune disease, MS etc., or at least less of a link than there is between these disorders and the diseases the vaccines prevent. I don't understand why you are looking for an explanation for a phenomenon that is either so rare we aren't even sure it exists, or doesn't exist.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith,

Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit’s rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?

They didn't find any viruses or bacterial pathogens in the vaccine. They found some DNA fragments, but no intact viruses, and no bacterial DNA at all except in ileal biopsy samples, which isn't surprising. As the study itself states:

Overall, no correlation between specific pathogens and vaccination status was identified from this study, nor was a correlation identified between pathogens and vaccination of rotavirus vaccines. PCV was not detected in any ileal samples either by microarray or PCR analyses.

I don't see what the concern is.
This study also looked at rotavirus vaccines and concluded:

The detection of SRV DNA (or other retroviral sequences) in live-attenuated vaccines, therefore, simply reflects their generation in cells, which contain a large genome load of endogenous retroviruses, rather than the presence of adventitious viruses of concern.

As for the "baboon virus", SRV:

A prior study showed two cases of SRV seroconversion in people with extensive blood and saliva contacts with nonhuman primates presumably following infection with replication-competent SRV. Neither clinical symptoms nor ongoing viremia was observed in these seropositive individuals.

So even when people are exposed to live SRV (which is not found in rotavirus vaccines) by non-human primates, it doesn't appear to cause any symptoms, or an ongoing infection. Why are you concerned about this?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Fair enough, Krebiozen.

As for the gut bacteria, there appears to be no research at all on glyphosate's effect on them.

^^ Quite. *no research at all* seems to apply to lots of safe/bad , bad/safe things in the liturature that sets policy these past many decades. I *feel* it is awfully selective and lends itself to political pronouncements of such fantastic gravitas as to be, umm, discounted. Unless it's by law enforcement, FDA, DEA, ..., CDC, ..., The Jimmy Carter Institute of Good Tasting Filaribits and Pet Guinea Worm Grooming.

Quote from the new TLR5 paper:
"These results reveal an unappreciated role for gut microbiota in promoting immunity to vaccination. A major implication of our findings for global public health is the possibility that the microbiota plays a role in immune responses to vaccines. The status of the host microbiota may be a critical determinant of vaccine efficacy and alteration of microbiota through antibiotic exposure could negatively impact vaccine efficacy. Furthermore, vaccines are less effective in many parts of developing countries compared to industrialized areas, and this may in part be due to multiple factors affecting the microbiota (Pulendran and Ahmed, 2011). Our results predict that diet, nutrition, metabolic diseases, pre-existing gut-associated pathologies, and other compounding factors affecting the microbiota may in turn affect the capacity of current and future vaccines to establish immunity." http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(14)00303-3

It's about time to focus on microbiota as mechanism of vaccine injury. People like Krebiozen, though thougthful, don't appear to have much respect for the environment which includes the organisms of their guts running the show. Of course, it's a reciprocal relationship between microbiota and the immune system. But you can't have one without the other and be healthy or avoid injury. For him not to accept this fact while participating on blog which mocks vaccine injury is immoral. Where is the spirit of science and exploration on this horrid page?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

It’s about time to focus on microbiota as mechanism of vaccine injury.

Why? Not a single source you presented supports your pet hypothesis. The last one deals with vaccine efficacy, not injury and another dealt with nasopharyngeal commensal organisms, not gut microbes. It's obvious you are just trying to Gish Gallup without the slightest clue of what you are reading. The PCV paper, which Krebiozen already commented on, most likely used tissue samples from autistic children yet no evidence of adventitious organisms and "injury".

For him not to accept this fact while participating on blog which mocks vaccine injury is immoral. Where is the spirit of science and exploration on this horrid page?

Again why? You are asserting facts not in evidence, namely that what you claim are vaccine injuries simply aren't true. You are being refuted and corrected on your interpretation of your own citations, that's exploration and more than you deserve considering how nasty you are. If it's so horrible here, I'm sure you can find plenty of sites inhabited by sophormoric dolts who will lap your hypothesis up.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

You broke the code, Mom. There are no studies about gut microbiota and vaccine injury, so I'm doing the best I can with what's available to inspire such studies. I'll coming over to your blog soon so we talk about it in more detail. That way you can laugh and yawn all you want about vaccine injury.

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

And I'm not really nasty, just creative like Narad who probably is really nasty having never been breastfed (not his fault). Btw, Mom, do you think breastfeeding helps guard against vaccine injury? I'd bet it does . . . got bifidobacteria™?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Tim,

I’d think the detergent and glyphosate need to be looked at how they may act combined together.

This has been looked at, and it's about as safe as any herbicide could possibly be expected to be. It's harmless to humans, doesn't bioaccumulate, is biodegradable and effects on animals, fish, amphibians and soil bacteria in the concentrations seen in normal use are negligible. It's undoubtedly far safer than the herbicides it has replaced. Yet people are terrified of it; it's odd.

As for the gut bacteria, there appears to be no research at all on glyphosate’s effect on them.

Given the total lack of evidence for any adverse effects on humans despite glyphosate's use across the planet for 40 years, and the fact that:

Glyphosate is practically nontoxic by ingestion, with a reported acute oral LD50 of 5600 mg/kg in the rat.

I'm not too worried.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Speaking of milk, here's a gut microbiota cattle study about glyphosate shifting flora toward clostridium overgrowth (botulism). Clostridium overgrowth is also known in autism. Indeed, clostridium toxins are also implicated in MS including brain inflammation per the new study discussed earlier. Did you know brain inflammation leads to seizure?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996413000188

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Kreb is discounting animal studies while manufacturing vaccines using monkeys.

Here'a a very new cattle study stating "glyphosate appears to modulate the fungal community."
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00284-014-0656-y

Laugh all you want about fungal overgrowth known in autism, it's no joke. Fungi are now decimating wildlife globally including bats, snakes, frogs and people. Where are the missing bacteria which would normally control fungi?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

You broke the code, Mom. There are no studies about gut microbiota and vaccine injury, so I’m doing the best I can with what’s available to inspire such studies. I’ll coming over to your blog soon so we talk about it in more detail. That way you can laugh and yawn all you want about vaccine injury.

There first should be biological plausibility which you have yet to demonstrate. Research monies are precious and just because your dim bulb went off, doesn't mean it's a viable research avenue. I prefer to focus on real vaccine injuries and spare my sympathy for those who have suffered, not on a bunch of crackpot mums who can't accept that they don't have perfect children and spend their time wailing and gnashing their teeth over non-existent vaccine injuries and the vast sums of compensation they think they are entitled to.

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

I'm sorry, I've seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money let alone losing money by refuting crank hypotheses and anti-vaxx dogma.

And I’m not really nasty, just creative like Narad who probably is really nasty having never been breastfed (not his fault). Btw, Mom, do you think breastfeeding helps guard against vaccine injury? I’d bet it does . . . got bifidobacteria™?

Your breast obsession is noted and that was a nasty comment, don't be shocked when you are treated in kind. No, breastfeeding doesn't guard against any "vaccine injury".

By Science Mom (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Speaking of milk, here’s a gut microbiota cattle study about glyphosate shifting flora toward clostridium overgrowth (botulism). Clostridium overgrowth is also known in autism. Indeed, clostridium toxins are also implicated in MS including brain inflammation per the new study discussed earlier. Did you know brain inflammation leads to seizure?

You babble on about C. botulinum bacterial growth in cows and somehow say it's connected to a preliminary finding of C. perfringes toxin in human MS patients. Gosh I can't understand why you aren't taken seriously. Clostridium growth in autism? Citation please.

Laugh all you want about fungal overgrowth known in autism, it’s no joke.

Citation please.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

The inventors of "Vaccine Injury Awareness Month" have had the misfortune of being overwhelmed by media and public attention to threats from two separate infectious disease threats - Ebola and enterovirus D68.

It's hard to get traction for your antivaccine campaign, when the vast majority of people are looking forward to when protection from these diseases through vaccines will be available.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

"The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism."
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

"The finding that yeast levels were similar in both the autistic and control group is interesting, as there has been a great deal of speculation that yeast infections are a major problem in autism. Our data indicates that yeast is present at normal levels in the stool of this group of children with autism. A study by Horvath and Perman [21] reported that 43% of children with autism undergoing endoscopies had a positive fungal culture for yeast in their duodenal juice, vs. 23% of age-matched controls with other gastrointestinal problems requiring endoscopies. Since their study involved children with severe enough symptoms to warrant endoscopies, the greater symptom severity may explain some of the difference with our study. Since the survey by the Autism Research Institute of over 25,000 parents' reports that parents find antifungals to be one of the most effective medications for improving behavior [44], our findings are puzzling. It is possible that children with autism are more sensitive to even a normal level of yeast. Also, it is possible that antifungals have other effects, such as reducing inflammation."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/11/22

Protozoans are also found high in autism. Taxonomy unavailable for most. Protozoans consume bacteria. Citation please.

Thanks for asking, Mom! And thanks for inspiring me to find this article about breastfeeding and vaccine response, certainly a matter of flora balance:
http://evolutionaryparenting.com/breastfeeding-and-vaccines/

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

“chronically ill humans showed significantly higher glyphosate residues in urine than healthy population.”

Hopefully, the authors of this open access journal article have asked themselves whether chronically ill people have higher glyphosate residues because their livers/kidneys can't process glyphosate as well as health people, and whether the detected residues are known to cause any health impacts whatsoever.

They could start by looking at whether people in "GMO-free areas" have any health differences from those unfortunates who live in horribly contaminated GMO-infested areas.

Most likely this paper will be used for more scaremongering by the anti-GMO crowd, without any consideration of confounding factors.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mom, you're beginning to seem like a flake here when you say:
"I’m sorry, I’ve seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money . . . "

Believe me, I don't like thinking you're actually a flake. But I do appreciate you asking about biological plausibility, so I'm reposting my article:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith,
You keep arguing that vaccines cause damage by somehow messing up the microbiota, yet you haven't provided any real evidence of that happening. Surely if vaccines were causing all this damage we would be able to detect in the many large safety studies that exist, and in post-marketing surveillance of vaccines. Where is the evidence of large-scale vaccine damage? If it doesn't exist, why are you looking for possible mechanisms?

It’s about time to focus on microbiota as mechanism of vaccine injury.

Why? Nothing you have posted here suggests to me that gut flora has anything at all to do with vaccine injury. Perhaps the health of a person's microbiota can affect their immune response, but not to the extent of allowing overgrowth of clostridium or any other bacterial pathogen that might affect the brain.

People like Krebiozen, though thougthful, don’t appear to have much respect for the environment which includes the organisms of their guts running the show.

Now the microbiota runs the show? You don't think that's just a little hyperbolic?

Of course, it’s a reciprocal relationship between microbiota and the immune system. But you can’t have one without the other and be healthy or avoid injury.

Why can't a person have a healthy immune system and a healthy microbiota and get all their scheduled vaccinations? Is there any reason to suspect even remotely that childhood vaccines have a damaging effect on gut flora? I don't see any in anything you have posted here.

For him not to accept this fact while participating on blog which mocks vaccine injury is immoral.

Immoral? I suppose that makes your comment here immoral too. I have never seen anyone mock vaccine injury here, though I have had to tolerate plenty of abuse from antivaxxers despite my generally polite approach. I was accused of being a bad parent just yesterday, simply because my child acquired whooping cough during an outbreak caused by a false vaccine safety scare.
Where is the spirit of science and exploration on this horrid page?
I don't believe you are interested in science and exploration, you have somehow acquired this idée fixe that vaccines cause widespread damage by messing up the microbiota, despite the evidence that vaccine injury is very rare, and the evidence even suggesting that vaccines damage the microbiota is practically non-existent.

There are no studies about gut microbiota and vaccine injury, so I’m doing the best I can with what’s available to inspire such studies.

It seems to me you're trying to convince people that something is true when there is no evidence for it. When there are gaps in our knowledge, you don't get to fill them in with stuff you just made up.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Sorry to learn about your child having whooping cough, Kreb. Are you in California by chance? DTaP failure is well known while autism is listed on the package insert as adverse effect. I'm assuming your child is vaccinated. I'd suggest things like zinc, vitamin C and D3 to help boost immunity. Probiotic therapy may also be in order. I'm sure you're an excellent parent.

The reason I'm highlighting potential flora shift by childhood vaccination is because there are no comprehensive studies.

And to reiterate, what may be more important is flora present at time of vaccination, different for all infants based on ancestral dietary habits and health of the mother. You don't actually believe all newborns have the same flora balance, do you?

You state "Perhaps the health of a person’s microbiota can affect their immune response" and that's where the Mayo Clinic hasn't gone yet regarding injury. That's the vaccine injury connection, not simply a matter of shifting flora.

If you don't believe the title of this blog doesn't mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again. My gloves are off here because of it.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Skepti: 1. Halloween is not the same as the rest of the year.
2. There are ways to tone a costume down, and intelligence is a relationship killer anyway.

Keith: Just out of curiosity, if the gut is so permeable in autistic kids, why are they not dying of sepsis left and right? 'Cause that's what usually happens when the gut leaks?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "DTaP failure is well known while autism is listed on the package insert as adverse effect."

No it isn't.

Those are lawyer written bits that cover everything that has been reported, but not confirmed. Plus it was only one DTaP, Tripedia, that had that on the vaccine insert. Tripedia was disontinued in 2011.

You are going to have to use more up to date anti-vaccine tropes.

Also, exactly which vaccine on the present American pediatric scheduled causes more seizures than the disease? Provide verifiable documentation for your answer and not a dubious website.

Thx, Keith Bell.

I strongly *think** that what's going on in the gut affects the brain. Or, at least, the eyes.

For much of my life, I'd come out of school not being able to see so that I'd stare at the ground 'squinting'. People would ask me "You mad or something?" Well, yes. I hated school but also couldn't stand light after getting out of it (no windows) and then couldn't even stand the changing light on a television screen.

This 'madness' magically came to a screeching hault on 17 January 1991. I guess I can't quite explain that. Nor can I explain the sporadic recurrences of the condition (iritis??) but I'd ask people now "what could be a better definition of *impaired* than having to be somewhere at some particular time and driving down the road in traffic with one eye shut and the other open 30% of the time all teared up and growing rage because of it?"

One day coming home, my seatbelt was uncomfortable across my bellybutton area. A really uncomfortable, weird feeling. I'd attributed this to what must surely have been a 'hernia' from lifting a friends' new little coleman generator up into my highly body-lifted vehicle the night before.

The next morning, I awoke in incredible localized pain on the right just above the pelvis area and sweat literally pouring off all ten fingers -- I then knew what it was. I had a friend come transport me to the emergency room. While there, and under x-ray series, the pain *just quit.* I was told it was an an acute manifestation of chronic appendicitis which had onset due to a spastic colon and was advised to have it removed. I never had it removed but get very anxious when 'that bellybutton feeling' 'twinges' from time to time -- especially if down in a cave, or something.

** I'm pretty damn sure

Oh, yes, you’re back to genetic switches discussed two days ago.

"Discussed"? You made two assertions and then predictably ran away from them when called out.

Have you ever researched host gene-microbe interaction? You can probably understand this paper better than I, give it a shot

Um, yes, Keith, epigenetics isn't exactly a new topic here. It also doesn't help one whit with your claim that a gluten-free diet magically rewrites the HLA-DQ alleles, because intestinal flora.

^ Since Keith is unlikely to put 2 and 2 together correctly, I suppose I should explicitly note that there is no genetic test for celiac disease, only testing for "almost certainly not celiac."

Keith,
My son caught whooping cough in the UK in the early 80s, and it was almost certainly the result of outbreaks that occurred because of a dramatic fall in vaccine uptake thanks to a vaccine scare that proved be groundless. An estimated 5,000 hospital admissions, 200 cases of pneumonia, 83 cases of convulsions and 38 deaths occurred thanks to antivaccine hysteria, nothing to do with vaccine failure.

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again. My gloves are off here because of it.

I have every sympathy for those who suffer adverse reactions to vaccines, or whose children have developmental problems, whatever the cause. I have little time for those who claim that vaccines cause a range of disorders when several large studies have failed to find any evidence that this is true. Some of those people even make up nonsense and flatly lie to try to frighten people away from vaccines, when the public health consequences if they succeed will be disastrous, and we will have all the autism, MS and allergies that they claim are caused by vaccines as well as the consequences of a resurgence of infectious diseases. Public health menaces like this deserve mockery, in my opinion, since reasoned argument doesn't appear to be effective.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again. My gloves are off here because of it.

I suggest that you put them back on, since the only damage you're inflicting is to your own credibility. As for your actual claim, let's return to your very first comment:

I can’t believe there are actually people on this page, including Orac, posing as scientists. Orac seems like a cowardly, nameless front. And Liz Ditz, with a name like that, who actually listens to you? Sink your dull teeth into this:
Vaccine Injury: The Biological Plausibility of Microbial Predisposition

This comports more with what you're actually doing, which is opportunistically pimping your own harebrained fixation. Why did you bother with the "cowardly, nameless front" routine, only to reveal shortly afterward that you were simply making up the "nameless" insult? Why don't you even know how Liz's name is pronounced? Who actually listens to you?

Narad, I appreciate your relentless/artful approach and stand corrected regarding Celiac genetic testing, though there is such thing as a positive genetic test result. What I should have said is antibodies may become undetectable after gluten-free diet based on flora shift. But it's also interesting that 40% of the general population carry the HLA gene making genetic testing for Celiac disease as first line a problem (as conducted for years by places such as University of Chicago Celiac Disease Center) leading people toward apathetic treatment, resigning their problem to genes when it's actually a matter of gut dysbiosis. The Celiac industry is now finally changing its tune while the sugary-sweet gluten-free diet feeds the problem.
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v109/n5/full/ajg201441a.html#fig2
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=672812356089350

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Tim, that's a harrowing post, but I believe you can fix the gut-eye problem by focusing on diet and flora balance.

Chris, whooping cough vaccine failure is all over the news and I'm not here to talk about it. The fact remains that autism was listed in the package insert as adverse effect. I can't answer your question about which vaccine causes more seizures than the disease, though I suspect all of them.

guineapig, that's an interesting question about autistic people and sepsis. Leaky gut is known in autism, but death by sepsis is an extreme condition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20683204

Probiotic therapy using B. fragilis was found to help with leaky gut and lower autistic symptoms:
http://www.caltech.edu/content/probiotic-therapy-alleviates-autism-beha…

Moreover, I don't believe a leaky gut so extreme as to cause sepsis is required to cause brain malfunction. An overwhelmed liver may be more the problem where the liver receives 80% of its blood flow directly from intestines via the portal vein. The problem begins in the intestines. It can also work the other way around where the brain affects the gut.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140312082753.htm
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39580262/ns/health-childrens_health/t/autism-…

Kreb, was your son vaccinated and still developed whooping cough as is happening today?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again.
If you do believe that Dr G. has spent years blogging about holocaust denial, homeopathic quackery, and countless other forms of crap science, but named his blog specifically to mock your idee fixe, then frankly you're delusional.

ht_tp://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-residues-in-animals-and-humans-2161-0525.1000210.php?aid=23853

Oh joy! An Omics journal! One of the lowest-tier bottom-feeders even within the scuzzy ecosphere of pay-to-print jizzmop journals, known for their willingness to literally print anything!

“The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism.”
ht_tp://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

So Finegold has changed his story again? I see that in the references he cites his 2000 study about curing autism with vancomycin. Oddly enough, he does not cite any of his intervening failures to replicate his clostridium story. Instead he cites Wakefield's fabricated work... this does not instil much confidence.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

What I should have said is antibodies may become undetectable after gluten-free diet based on flora shift.

Funny, when I referred to antibody detection and pointed out that your assertion was idiotic, you changed your tune specifically to genetic testing.

In other words, you are again chasing your tail.

@ Keith Bell:

You might want to read Teresa Conrick ( AoA): you have lots in common.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again.

I am not Orac, do not speak for him, and do not play him on TV. I can, though, see how someone could interpret the post title "Antivaccine cranks try to create Vaccine Injury Awareness Month. Everyone either yawns or laughs." as mocking real vaccine injuries. The post implies, but does not spell out, that the bulk of the vaccine injuries that the promoters of "Vaccine Injury Awareness Month" are not actually vaccine injuries. If you read his post from 2011, linked to above, you'd see it includes this section:

It’s also a straw man argument in that no one claims that vaccines are absolutely safe. Incredibly safe under any reasonable definition of the word “safe”? Definitely. Far safer than the risk of the diseases they prevent. Almost always. So safe that serious adverse reactions are incredibly rare? Of course. But no one says that vaccines never cause injury. What science does say is that the claims of anti-vaccine propagandists that vaccines cause autism, autoimmune diseases, dementia, and other chronic diseases are without a basis in science.

Clearly there are actual injuries caused by vaccines, and each of those is bad. Orac has not, to the best of my knowledge, ever denied that these injuries can happen nor has he mocked those who have had such reactions.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Thanks, Denice, I have read her essays. And thank you all for putting up with what I call "Greenpeace tactics" in order to call attention to what I believe is a gaping hole in science:
1) how childhood vaccines affect flora balance and
2) how flora affects vaccine response leading to injury

Hope I haven't lost too much credibility, Narad. Please keep an eye out for Part 2 of my article on the subject of vaccine injury and microbial predisposition. I'm giving away a free microscope to the first commenter. No hard feelings, Liz, I had no idea your name isn't pronounced like the word "ditz", how fortunate for you.

Take care all, I'll miss you. :'(

Feel free to continue laughing and yawning about vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

I hope I haven't lost my 1893 Ford with the 1901 12 litre Rolls-Royce engine.

I believe you can fix the gut-eye problem by focusing on diet and flora balance.

Definately. Smoking lots of pot kept it under control as well. The 'ohh just fuck it' moment came for me the day Bush went into Bahgdad.

You know what? Having taken a walk, it's not prima facie idiotic, despite the fact that the intestinal flora aren't synthesizing the antibodies. Having Mr. Bell say one thing, turn around and say the opposite, and then retreat back to the first stretches what little patience I have left with his naked assertions, many of which collapse instantly upon simple examination of his sources, past the breaking point.

So, where's the mechanism, Keith?

what I believe is a gaping hole in science:
1) how...
2) how...

So the studies on "How X happens" should precede any evidence that "X is happening at all"? You seem to expect that the task of science is to validate your belief system.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Oh, no, another flounce? Here I was all set to ask about antibody kinetics and the implications of damage mechanisms, as well as a whole platter of items that Keith could have used to try to construct a case – or not – with (including, in no particular order, PMIDs 20007908, 20430780, 15599646, 2920930, and 23060888).

Enjoy the fixin's for your usual botched Cobb salads, Mr. Bell.

Oh, and...

No hard feelings, Liz, I had no idea your name isn’t pronounced like the word “ditz”, how fortunate for you.

Given that Liz's involvement in these comments has had nothing to do with your asshattery, I would like to suggest that you take this pissy little sign-off and figure out a way for it to be the last thing that pops into your head during an botched episode of autoerotic asphyxiation.

This may have been the pinnacle of Keith's crank career: Rickets is caused by flush toilets, which represent poor sanitation. Or something.

“The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism.”
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

So let me get this straight, you found a paper which:
1.) The lead author refers to autism as a disease.
2.) The case group (autism) was 13 children and the control group was 8 children not matched and only half of those had data presented for some measures.
3.) The children could not have had antibiotics for 1 month prior to the collection, many were on oral nystatin or fluconazole, 10 autistic children were given vancomycin and many were on a GF/CF diet. Because it's not like any of these factors aren't going to eff up gut flora or anything.
4.) Not randomised, blinded nor replicated.

I don't know what this has anything to do with your cite on C. botulinum in herbivorous ruminants or even how it supports your crackpot hypothesis.

“The finding that yeast levels were similar in both the autistic and control group is interesting, as there has been a great deal of speculation that yeast infections are a major problem in autism. Our data indicates that yeast is present at normal levels in the stool of this group of children with autism. A study by Horvath and Perman [21] reported that 43% of children with autism undergoing endoscopies had a positive fungal culture for yeast in their duodenal juice, vs. 23% of age-matched controls with other gastrointestinal problems requiring endoscopies. Since their study involved children with severe enough symptoms to warrant endoscopies, the greater symptom severity may explain some of the difference with our study. Since the survey by the Autism Research Institute of over 25,000 parents’ reports that parents find antifungals to be one of the most effective medications for improving behavior [44], our findings are puzzling. It is possible that children with autism are more sensitive to even a normal level of yeast. Also, it is possible that antifungals have other effects, such as reducing inflammation.”
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/11/22

Do you even read your own citations? Adams is a materials scientist who believes his autistic son was 'vaccine-injured'. The study subjects in the autistic group were recruited by an anti-vaxx group and behavioural scores were parent-reported. All the labs were performed by Doctor's Data which is not a reputable company and performs non-standardised tests. And most importantly, no yeast infections were found which is the citation you provided when I asked. Fail.

Protozoans are also found high in autism. Taxonomy unavailable for most. Protozoans consume bacteria. Citation please.

Damn straight. Citations please.

Thanks for asking, Mom! And thanks for inspiring me to find this article about breastfeeding and vaccine response, certainly a matter of flora balance:
http://evolutionaryparenting.com/breastfeeding-and-vaccines/

You're quite a dodgy one. You asked if I thought breastfeeding was protective for vaccine injury and you provide me with a blogpost about vaccine efficacy and breastfeeding and pretend that's what you asked me about.

Mom, you’re beginning to seem like a flake here when you say:
“I’m sorry, I’ve seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money . . . ”

Believe me, I don’t like thinking you’re actually a flake. But I do appreciate you asking about biological plausibility, so I’m reposting my article:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility…

Let's try your own words out again 'kay Keithy wee-bits?

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

What money is there to lose? As for your link for biological plausibility, one to your own non peer-reviewed post is not a suitable reference. You're just another crank who is working backwards and expecting accolades from us. You have deluded yourself into thinking you are in our peer group. You have formed a conclusion and are now grasping at anything to support it; that isn't how it works. And in the future, if you wish to shorten my name you will address me as SM.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith Bell: Leaky gut is known in autism, but death by sepsis is an extreme condition.

Probiotic therapy using B. fragilis was found to help with leaky gut and lower autistic symptoms:
http://www.caltech.edu/content/probiotic-therapy-alleviates-autism-beha…

Moreover, I don’t believe a leaky gut so extreme as to cause sepsis is required to cause brain malfunction. An overwhelmed liver may be more the problem where the liver receives 80% of its blood flow directly from intestines via the portal vein. The problem begins in the intestines. It can also work the other way around where the brain affects the gut.

Sigh. Of course death by sepsis is an extreme condition, but given how permeable you and your friends think the gut is in autistic kids, the kids should be dropping like flies. Funny how that isn't happening.

Liver is one of the last stops after the intestines, bub. Nothing in the liver affects the intestines, and given how quickly jaundice can be treated and resolved, (at least in infants) it shouldn't have any impact on development.

Finally, the reason nobody pays any attention to the gut-brain hypothesis (or the gut-eye) is that only Andrew Wakefield and his brothers and sisters-in-scams have 'discovered' it. There simply aren't any reputable people studying it.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

He didn't comprehend that being compared to Conrick is not exactly a compliment.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP, could you please get down with some form of delimiting quotations? There are traditional options available.

DW: She is high priestess of the gut-brain cult. Plus I think dear Keithy spends too much time thinking with the "brain" in his gut.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Take care all, I’ll miss you. :’("

Yet you never addressed my question. Especially after I told you that a vaccine that you cited was discontinued three years ago.

Finally, the reason nobody pays any attention to the gut-brain hypothesis (or the gut-eye) is that only Andrew Wakefield and his brothers and sisters-in-scams have ‘discovered’ it. There simply aren’t any reputable people studying it.

Ah, no, not in the slightest.

This is plagiarism, BTW, Laura, except that you omitted one word and changed another

No, no, Narad. The two papers merely exchanged part of their textual genomes.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 07 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith wrote:

I can’t answer your question about which vaccine causes more seizures than the disease, though I suspect all of them.

There, perhaps, is the antivaccine movement's problem in a nutshell. How could anyone believe something so obviously untrue? The incidence of seizures after MMRV is 5.8 per 10,000 doses, as compared to up to 230 febrile seizures per 10,000 of wild measles sufferers.

The incidence of seizures after MMRV is lower than the death rate after wild measles infection. Between 1999 and 2004 the case-fatality rate averaged 3 per 1,000 reported measles cases, which is 30 per 10,000.

A child is at least 5 times more likely to die after a wild measles infection than it is to suffer a febrile seizure after MMRV, yet people like Keith think the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. How do they get this so utterly wrong?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "I can’t answer your question about which vaccine causes more seizures than the disease, though I suspect all of them."

That shows the quality of his "research.". He only knew how to cut and paste from others, including the "a DTaP vaccine's package insert says autism".... but never bothered to check any of it himself.

Narad: I don't know what you mean. Every time I try to block quote, it ends horribly, so I'm stuck with my present kludge.
Finally, if there are any reputable scientist studying gut-brain, they have either traveled far down the woo path or are working deep underground. Neither of which speaks well for their results.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP 253

Every time I try to block quote, it ends horribly

See my location?

(Hoping this works since it did by accident over the weekend)

Finally, if there are any reputable scientist studying gut-brain, they have either traveled far down the woo path or are working deep underground. Neither of which speaks well for their results.

Wrong! Courchesne and Buie come to mind and both are very well-respected autism researchers. It's a viable avenue of research and just because wankers like Wakefield have tainted the field with his measles/leaky gut asshattery, doesn't mean that neuro-immune interactions isn't legitimate

By Science Mom (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith and his fixation with vaccine-gut flora "issues" reminds me of another long-term poster here who is obssessed with the idea that vaccines have unique cytokine-stimulating abilities which cause autism.

No real evidence is needed, just cite a bunch of peripheral and irrelevant research and demand that skeptics connect-the-dots.

It could happen!

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

I don’t know what you mean. Every time I try to block quote, it ends horribly, so I’m stuck with my present kludge.

Try quotation marks.

Keith
Comin in guns a blazin’ I see. You gotta slow your roll homie.

I have been known to do as you are doing around these here parts of the interwebz and I have concluded that it isn’t a fruitful approach.

There are several highly educated commenters here that will engage you in a polite manner (there are also some that are the quintessential embodiments of “arrogance of ignorance” and No, Im not naming names), but you have to maintain some tolerance for their criticism and forge on in polite discourse. I know, I know it ain’t easy being cheesy.

In fact, Narad has been known to apologize when he is in the wrong (BTW, I never did accept that apology from a while back… apology accepted Narad, if you care. that demonstrated a high level of integrity, and if one could endorse this quality on a blog like I can do on linkedin, I would.) He is also extremely resourceful (if you hadn’t noticed) and apparently is almost machine-like when it comes to commenting. Kreb… well, I have several good things to say about him, and I have learned a lot from our interactions. He will maintain his patience if you want to bounce ideas off of him, but they have to be ideas, not hard-fast claims of The Real Truth. Same with Science Mom, she has an abundance of knowledge in the field of epidemiology, microbiology and immunology if you feel so inclined to tap it. As do several others here, sorry can’t name all of you, but I have been surveying and mentally cataloging for long enough to know this is the case.

Bottom line, your manner and level of professionalism in a conversation, even if it is online, will dictate the outcome of that endeavor. This has taken some time for me to learn. While I don’t always agree with everything that is stated here or the responses I get, I always try to remain tolerant of others thoughts and criticisms, and this is actually really difficult to do in practice. I find when I do, there is more of a sense of calm and a greater ability to assess a situation objectively, which incidentally is the point of science in general: to be as objective as possible maintaining a dynamic state of knowledge.

Anyway enough preaching, let’s actually address what you are talking about. And I am your guy for this topic. I became interested in how the microflora shapes health and disease back when I was 19, (y2k baby!) It is actually this interest that sparked my direction as an undergraduate to pursue a degree in Medical Microbiology and Immunology. Though, I was disappointed because I attended a top tier school and nothing in the curricula addressed how the commensal microbes in and on our bodies affect health outcomes. I guess I was just a little ahead of my time… I undertook my own study of the literature as a second year bio student and wrote a nice research paper on the trifecta of infant feeding, microbial colonization and incidence of allergy (no I didn’t design a study, this is second year bio fer Christ sake) it was saved on a 3 ½” floppy disk (hehe.) My advisor and professor for MMI noticed my interest in this topic and encouraged me to start a journal group that she would oversee, so I did. That was then and this in now though and there has been a veritable explosion in research surrounding the microbiome, metabolome, microbial endocrinology, which you now know are near and dear to my heart.

So, what exactly are you claiming?

Is it?

a)Vaccines alter infant microbial colonization which leads to vaccine injury.

b)Vaccines have the potential to influence microbial colonization and there should be more research to explore this hypothesis.

As you can see, a) is an authoritative claim with a lack of evidence to support it (which you have admitted insofar as saying there have been no studies), whereas, b) is more of an inferential approach, which can lead to a more enlightening discussion.

Moreover, even if experimentation and research highlight a role for vaccines influencing microbial colonization, one cannot then leap to the conclusion that this necessarily influences neurodevelopment negatively. An objective approach would equally consider that this (hypothetical scenario) could also have a positive influence or a neutral influence and further study is warranted to elucidate these possibilities.

I whole heartedly agree with b) and have explicitly stated such on SBM blog in the not so distant past. However, step 1 entails designing epidemiological studies to assess this. This is where it gets more difficult. The exposure is vaccination, and the effect is microbial colonization. Therefore, a control arm in a case control study would require an unvaccinated cohort, which is unethical. One could make the case the control, by comparing before and after compositions or look at if there is an effect on the metabolome pre and post. However, this approach is the reductionist approach and may serve to highlight only transient differences and not global or lasting differences, if there indeed are any; or it may miss an effect entirely.

I think there is another way to assess this, but I would need some help to flesh out the idea. With some prior knowledge it may be possible to design a prospective epidemiological study to look at how a vaccine specifically affects a certain aspect of immunology related to microbial colonization. For example, one could design a prospective study that interrogates the effect of a childhood vaccine or combination of vaccines on TLR and NLR expression.

The first line of sensing of any microbe anywhere in the body is through activation of a number of Toll Like or Nod Like receptors on immune and other cells. Therefore, the constituency of TLR’s and NLR’s which is regulated by the good ol’ combo of Genes, environment, development, and sex, is absolutely crucial in dictating the course of microbial colonization.

If we use the framework of G x E x D x S, then we can reasonably say that the expression (at any moment in time) of TLR’s and NLRs is a consequence of the host genome (in fact many genetic anomalies related to TLR biology are implicated in IBD, due to the influence on microbial colonization) interacting with the host’s environment. Vaccination would fall under environment, obviously. We know of other environmental factors that have a relative contribution to infant microbial colonization, most notably, route of birth, infant diet (bottle v. breast), anti-biotic usage, etc. Those are the three biggies, but that certainly doesn’t preclude other environmental factors from having an influence; in epidemiology these factors can be considered component causes, where several in combination can constitute a sufficient cause.

This is the tricky part about epidemiology; that for the most part, studies are predicated on a reductionist approach, i.e. infant vaccines cause a lasting/transient change in the composition of the microflora (which IMHO would be a reductionist approach to the question b)). Vaccines are the exposure and change in microflora is the effect...well it probably isn’t that simple and reducing the equation to this may result in nothing meaningful.

In an effort to better understand these limitations I have read various papers/commentary discussing this topic. One paper that made several interesting points:

“Causal models in epidemiology: past inheritance and genetic future”
By Paolo Vineis and David Kriebel

This is open access and I think it would be wise to consider their commentary and it may bring more insight into the discussion. I will leave you with the abstract:

The eruption of genetic research presents a tremendous opportunity to epidemiologists to improve our ability to identify causes of ill health. Epidemiologists have enthusiastically embraced the new tools of genomics and proteomics to investigate gene-environment interactions. We argue that neither the full import nor limitations of such studies can be appreciated without clarifying underlying theoretical models of interaction, etiologic fraction, and the fundamental concept of causality. We therefore explore different models ofcausality in the epidemiology of disease arising out of genes, environments, and the interplay between environments and genes. We begin from Rothman's "pie" model of necessary and sufficient causes, and then discuss newer approaches, which provide additional insights into multifactorial causal processes. These include directed acyclic graphs and structural equation models. Caution is urged in the application of two essential and closely related concepts found in many studies: interaction (effect modification) and the etiologic or attributable fraction. We review these concepts and present four important limitations.

1. Interaction is a fundamental characteristic of any causal process involving a series of probabilistic steps, and not a second-order phenomenon identified after first accounting for "main effects".

2. Standard methods of assessing interaction do not adequately consider the life course, and the temporal dynamics through which anindividual's sufficient cause iscompleted. Different individuals may be at different stages of development along the path to disease, but this is not usually measurable. Thus, for example, acquired susceptibility in children can be an important source of variation.

3. A distinction must be made between individual-based and population-level models. Most epidemiologic discussions of causality fail to make this distinction.

4. At the population level, there is additional uncertainty in quantifying interaction and assigning etiologic fractions to different necessary causes because of ignorance about the components of the sufficient cause.

good luck,

Skeptiquette

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP:

Fair enough. Enjoy the festivities! I think it is great that you are potentially gettting outside your comfort zone.

Also, I am not so sure intelligence is a relationship killer, could you expand on why you think that?

thanks,
skepti

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

Skeptiquette,

I find your words assimilable. Thx.

I've *learned* something new here (or through being here) -- That the tetanus shot is not preventing the incubation/growth of the microbe but rather the toxin. Why didn't somebody just say so up front all these years?? I'm not saying I trust the shot because of what else may be in it, but I *believe* in the science of how it should work, as with most of the others. I've got loads of preexisting trust issues hanging out 'round the back so that it's probably only me, though. *grins*.

skeptiquette,
Have you read Keith's writings? For example this? He explains the rise in rickets on the UK with:

Refined carbohydrate diets, poor sanitation, vaccination and antibiotic abuse create a perfect storm for rickets, obesity, diabetes and autism via shifting flora.

My understanding is that lack of sunshine (kids don't play outside like they used to) and fad diets low in vitamin D and calcium are to blame, as well as the increasing number of darker-skinned people in the population who don't get enough vitamin D from the six days of sunshine we get each year ;-)

Keith also believes that, " UV-microbe interaction is the reason we're able to make vitamin D via skin", which is as bonkers as Robert O Young's claim that red blood cells are made by the gut.

I think your words of wisdom may be wasted on Keith.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

the six days of sunshine we get each year

You should be in sunny Glasgow, then. I was just there and it was beautiful every day but one or two.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

You should be in sunny Glasgow, then. I was just there and it was beautiful every day but one or two.

I jest, the constant rainfall in Britain being true only for the purposes of comedy, a bit like our poor dental health (OK, there's some truth in both). The real truth is that the climate in London is pleasantly temperate, though I was hot in the sunshine today, briefly, between what the weather people here charmingly call scattered showers.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 08 Oct 2014 #permalink

My understanding is that lack of sunshine (kids don’t play outside like they used to) and fad diets low in vitamin D and calcium are to blame

Has the explicitly low–vitamin D diet* actually come into vogue?

* The theory paper is No. 18 here. The Vitamin D Council has rebutted. I only noticed this by virtue of some wide net, but I suspect that it can be effectively re-created by combining the search terms "mona" and "naturopathic chat."

Oh, and it does invoke the gut flora to speculate that Vitamin D supplementation is responsible to obesity, which I mention just to memorialize the Second Flouncing of Keith Bell.

^ "responsible for"

In fact, Narad has been known to apologize when he is in the wrong (BTW, I never did accept that apology from a while back… apology accepted Narad, if you care.

I do, and I'm glad that you do, even though it took Antaeus's calling me to the carpet. I've self-corrected a little bit here, but if I'm going to complain about other people's being full of beans, feedback about when I am (or if I'm over the top, which I think I have been here in places) is imperative:

“Our victory is over horseshit rather than bullshit. Bullshit is a rare and valuable commodity. The great masters have all been bullshitters. Horseshit, on the other hand, in the common parlance, refers to downright crap. The free, playful, entertaining flight of ideas is bullshit; and more often than not will be found afterwards to accord perfectly with universal truth. Horseshit is contrived; derivative, superstitious, ignorant. We might take Gurdjieff as an example of a master bullshitter and Meher Baba as an example of a master horseshitter.”

He is also extremely resourceful (if you hadn’t noticed) and apparently is almost machine-like when it comes to commenting.

I prefer to retrospectively conceptualize this as a sort of tenacity in the face of a blizzard of nonsense, but I'm not going to argue your perception.

Marshall's theories are interesting. They remind me of someone (I forget the name) a few years ago who made a plausible case for fish oil being dangerous, due to its easy oxidation, and that the fashion for taking it would lead to an epidemic of cancer and other diseases.

Has the explicitly low–vitamin D diet* actually come into vogue?

I don't think so, I think it's more low-fat and/or dairy-free diets that may be partly to blame, according to one newspaper article I read about it, or "junk food" according to another. Lack of sunshine may also be a factor, since parents keep their kids indoors more than they did a few decades ago, partly from fear of pedophiles and skin cancer, and kids are happier to do so, partly because of video games and social networking, or so the story goes.

It would be interesting to see how many rickets cases are seen in white children, as opposed to those with darker skin who obviously get less vitamin D from sunlight. South Asian children's diet often includes chapati flour which contains phytates that bind calcium, which may be another factor.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Marshall’s theories are interesting.

I haven't seen the published version, but BioEssays seems to have much more IF cred than Medical Hypotheses. Adjusting for the presumptive bias underlying the indices is a bit more thorny.

*Sigh* When will they bother to *study*? The problem with vaccines isn't the vaccines themselves so much as giving them *too early*. Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature's immune system. Now humans live at least 5 times as long as cats and puppies, so we should wait at least the same length of time before vaccinating human cubs. In fact, antibodies in the mother's milk will protect babies until the age of 6 months, at which point the child's immune system should be robust enough to take the strain of vaccination. It's also a good idea to give the vaccines separately, and preferably a month apart, to give the immune system time to adjust. That's all it takes to make the process safe. Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated, and it shows up among populations that have never vaccinated. Too-early vaccination has been linked to allergy problems and even SIDS, but not autism, thank you. Too-early vaccination was, frankly, the doing of lazy hospital staffs and doctors for their own convenience; if that practice had been nipped in the bud, all this anti-vaccination panic would never have started in the first place. This whole case is a fine illustration of why the medical biz has to rigorously police itself constantly, lest the ignorami take over.

By Leslie Fish (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

I'm a little puzzled about Keith alleging that poor sanitation leads to rickets in England. He does know that London's had sewers since the Romans, right?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system.

I would probe the "explanation" if only that which it is supposed to support weren't, you know, trivially a complete crock.

And...

Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated

Except for that whole "inadequate synaptic pruning" thing, of course.

Sigh* When will they bother to *study*?

Indeed.

*Sigh* When will they bother to *study*? The problem with vaccines isn’t the vaccines themselves so much as giving them *too early*. Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system.

I'd like to see this recommendation from veterinarians as younger puppies are most vulnerable to diseases like parvovirus and coronavirus. Vaccines don't weaken the immune system either so you'll have to provide some support for that statement. It is such a contradiction to believe that somehow an infant's or puppy's immune system is robust enough to handle wild-type diseases but somehow fails when it comes to vaccination. It's preposterous.

In fact, antibodies in the mother’s milk will protect babies until the age of 6 months, at which point the child’s immune system should be robust enough to take the strain of vaccination.

In fact? Then you will have no problem providing evidence for this statement as well. In fact not all antibodies are conferred via breastmilk. In fact, the mother has to have a sufficient circulating antibody titre to confer protective antibodies. In fact, not all maternally-derived antibodies even last six months and in fact, maternally-derived antibodies do not protect for all diseases.

It’s also a good idea to give the vaccines separately, and preferably a month apart, to give the immune system time to adjust.

Why? Is not an infant exposed to thousands of antigens and even immungens on a daily basis? Again, why is an infant's immune system so fragile that they can handle this but not vaccination with compositions of far less immunogens than exposed to on a daily basis?

Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated, [snip]

Oh really? Then I guess the Nobel prize goes to you and you can send all of those autism researchers home to study something else. ASDs present phenotypically different at both a physiological level and behavioural level, hence "spectrum disorder".

Too-early vaccination has been linked to allergy problems and even SIDS, but not autism, thank you.

Agreed about the autism but quite wrong about allergies and SIDS, in fact the opposite has been found. http://www.aerzteblatt.de/pdf.asp?id=80869 and http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2003/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccinations…

Too-early vaccination was, frankly, the doing of lazy hospital staffs and doctors for their own convenience; if that practice had been nipped in the bud, all this anti-vaccination panic would never have started in the first place.

Um no. Vaccination schedules were carefully constructed based upon age/severity of diseases, response to vaccination and catchment. Anti-vaxxers are only about being against vaccines so it wouldn't matter what the schedule was and we would be left with infant mortality rates that rival the mid twentieth century.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Leslie Fish's comment is a fine illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Why do people do this? Here's a tip: if you accuse someone, or an entire field of medicine, of ignorance, don't include several easily refutable pieces of misinformation.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Leslie Fish - yeah, Dunning-Kruger. When we got our pure-bred kitten at 10 weeks, said kitten had already had several vaccines - per the recommendation of the vet the breeder worked with, as well as our own vet.

And yes, children/babies are subject to *far* more "toxins" on a daily basis. Even being born to a mother with chorioamnionitis (where there's tons of bacteria for the baby to eat, breath, have on the skin) doesn't lead to autism, SIDS, or allergies. A pretty sick neonate, who needs antibiotics, yes. But not those other things. Even when said baby is born by C-section and unfortunately got a little nicked with the scalpel, so the bacteria had direct contact with the infant's bloodstream....

" neuroconnectivity is weakened"?
Oh what is it: Opposites Day?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Krebiozen #267

...a plausible case for fish oil being dangerous, due to its easy oxidation, and that the fashion for taking it would lead to an epidemic of cancer and other diseases.

maybe processed foods, fish oil, and wet snuff all mixed up in a bucket with the glyphosate on top??

...there was an increased frequency of liver cancer found in Norwegian farm animals. The farm animals had been fed on herring meal, which was preserved using sodium nitrite. The sodium nitrite had reacted with dimethylamine in the fish and produced dimethylnitrosamine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosamine#Cancer
--------------------

South Asian children’s diet often includes chapati flour which contains phytates that bind calcium, which may be another factor.

And the zinc and iron??

Phytic acid has a strong binding affinity to important minerals, such as calcium, iron, and zinc, although the binding of calcium with phytic acid is pH-dependent. The binding of phytic acid with iron is more complex, although there certainly is a strong binding affinity, molecules like phenols and tannins also influence the binding. When iron and zinc bind to phytic acid they form insoluble precipitate and are far less absorbable in the intestines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid#Food_science

I hear tell that 'fiber' and fiber foods including grains such as wheat and rice bind zinc in general. The zinc monomethionate as a supplement is *supposed* to resist this.

Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system.

I am not a vet but I know a few, on account of fostering kittens for the local animal-protection society until they are old enough and non-feral enough to go to permanent homes. Sure enough, Leslie Fish is spouting like a chocolate fountain, only it's not chocolate.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP:
I’m a little puzzled about Keith alleging that poor sanitation leads to rickets in England. He does know that London’s had sewers since the Romans, right?

Ah, you need to read to read Keith's oeuvre on other websites. Things like flush toilets and a water-based sewerage system are what he has in mind when he says "poor sanitation".

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

To be fair, Leslie's characterization that:

Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated,

is not entirely inaccurate.

I am going to very briefly and generally explain what *I* know about this through reading relevant literature and from my limited study of neurobiology in college.

activity dependent neuronal connections are made in such a way that initially many, many connections are formed, which are subsequently pruned back to allow the strongest connections to survive.

The findings from the realm of autism point towards an overabundance of short range (intra-regional) connections being made and a relative under-abundance of long range (inter-regional) connections.

So, it is possible that these overabundant connections that don't get properly pruned back are indeed dissipating signals and weakening long range neuroconnectivity.

This is also concordant with what Narad is saying-

Except for that whole “inadequate synaptic pruning” thing, of course.

Because inadequate synaptic pruning may result in a plethora of weaker connections that would normally be targeted for pruning at the expense of establishing stronger long range connections.

There is an elegant study published in Nature Neuroscience that looks at these particular interactions:

Deficient neuron-microglia signaling results in impaired functional brain connectivity and social behavior

Here is the final paragraph from the study report:

In summary, our findings reveal a role for microglia in promoting the maturation of circuit connectivity during development, with synapse elimination going hand in hand with enhanced synaptic multiplicity. Moreover, the association of weak synaptic multiplicity with decreased LFP coherence and BOLD synchronization in Cx3cr1KO
mice offers a specific and testable circuit-level mechanism
for the weak functional connectivity reported in autism 6,13
and other neurodevelopmental disorders7–12. Our data support the hypothesis that microglia-mediated synaptic pruning during development has a critical role in sculpting neural circuit function, which may con-tribute to the physiological and behavioral features of a range of
neurodevelopmental disorders. Our data also open the possibility that genetic and environmental risk factors for such disorders may exert their effect by modulating synapse elimination. Further studies are warranted to test the hypothesis that variation in synaptic pruning may underlie individual differences in human brain wiring and behavior.

Skeptiquette

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Kreb,

I hear you. It was a comment directed at Keith, but I also just felt like writing something... Life has been stressful lately and writing is a decent distraction from that for me.

I hope others picked something up from the words I wrote.

And, no, I haven't actually read anything written by Keith Bell other than stuff on this thread and the green med info article that was linked.

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Narad,

Great paragraph about the distinction between Horseshit and Bullshit... I smiled and chuckled throughout. So true though.

Thanks for that.

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Tim,

I am glad you found my words assimilable.

One thing about learning in this day and age is that a college degree, whether doctoral, undergrad or masters is just the beginning. These degrees simply provide the tools that are needed for a robust continuing education.

I've also contemplated the rate at which information is accruing. I want to say that it is exponential and that we are somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases.

I can envision this graphically as time on the x axis and units of knowledge on the y axis, with a hyperbolic curve representing the trend.

If this is the case, then the amount of info that was accrued over a period of say the last 500 years could be doubled in as little as 5 years. This poses some real problems for our current pedagogical paradigms and educational institutions as well as healthcare (as alot of the information accrual is bio/medicine related) and models of teaching as I am not sure if this is being accounted for.

I can certainly see the exponential accrual of information related to the microflora and impacts on health and disease, but I have been watching for about 15 years now.

Anyway, just some random thoughts about learning...

have a good day!

Skeptiquette

By Skeptiquette (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

is not entirely inaccurate.

No it's not but to arrogantly claim that that is the only ASD phenotype and aetiology is.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP,

I’m a little puzzled about Keith alleging that poor sanitation leads to rickets in England. He does know that London’s had sewers since the Romans, right?

Some scatalogical trivia for you: London's current sewerage system is largely based on an astonishing feat of Victorian engineering by a civil engineer called Joseph Bazalgette who built almost 100 miles of tunnels. It lasted a century but has has been collapsing slowly for years, and when I used to drive across half of London to work and back a few years ago I would regularly have to take detours because of road closures for sewer repairs.

I now live not far from the Beckton sewage works, where most of the sewage from London north of the Thames ends up. That's the main reason the west end of London is the wealthy area and the east end the poor part. I suspect the same is true of other older cities, the upstream areas being the more desirable because they are less stinky.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

HDB: "Things like flush toilets and a water-based sewerage system are what he has in mind when he says “poor sanitation”."

Ah, another dispatch from a parallel universe. Where do these wormholes keep coming from and how do we close them?

Kreb: That's interesting. I'll make sure to thank you if I'm ever on Jeopardy. (No, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.)

Skepti: Please don't make sock puppets. Or are you just defending Leslie because they're another anti-vaxxer who doesn't have the cojones (or ovaries) to come right out and say it? At least that's one point for Keith: he's at least openly anti-vax.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP, I know who Skeptiquette is and she isn't anti-vaxx nor a sock-puppet. Please go stuff your baseless accusations already.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

PGP: Also, someone elsenet noticed Leslie Fish's comment here and poked around a little, wondering if it was by "the Leslie Fish." She's not a sock puppet, and that thread found that it's consistent with much of the other material on her webpage. (I suspect you could find more people to confirm that Leslie Fish is not a sock puppet than you could for "Vicki," "Krebiozen," or "Politicalguineapig".)

ScienceMom: I know who Skeptiquette is and she isn’t anti-vaxx nor a sock-puppet.

I'll have to take your word for it. Skepti, I apologize.

Vicki: Well, no one but me knows what my 'nym means, and I've frequently had my gender confused, (apparently, I type like a dude) so I think I'm safe from that. Kreb has such a distinct writing style that anyone who tries to swipe his 'nym is instantly detected. (We had a troll who tried that.)

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Because inadequate synaptic pruning may result in a plethora of weaker connections that would normally be targeted for pruning at the expense of establishing stronger long range connections.

I don't have access to the Zhan et al. paper, and this part of neuroscience isn't something that I've paid attention to in a very long while, but I'm curious (really) how one avoids imbuing 'signal' with teleogical underpinnings based on the circuit/wiring analogy.

I’ve also contemplated the rate at which information is accruing. I want to say that it is exponential and that we are somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Explosion of knowledge and travel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWSJpEJX_4

things that make you go "hmmm..."

Skeptiquette:

I’ve also contemplated the rate at which information is accruing. I want to say that it is exponential and that we are somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases.

The exponential rate actually has been increasing. I read once, but I forget where, that at one time human knowledge increased by X% a year, while now it increases at Y% per year, where Y > X by a significant amount.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

The increase in information being referred to here was called the Jumping Jesus phenomenon by Robert Anton Wilson. I seem to recall claims that it would reach some sort of critical mass around 2000, but it didn't, or if it did nothing noticeable happened.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

London’s current sewerage system is largely based on an astonishing feat of Victorian engineering by a civil engineer called Joseph Bazalgette who built almost 100 miles of tunnels

Ironically, he's the great-great grandfather of Peter Bazalgette, the man who created the TV Production Company "Endemol" - the company that made "Big Brother", and as such is responsible for piping vast quantities of sh*t back into our homes.

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 09 Oct 2014 #permalink

Rebecca,
That's funny. What goes around comes around, I suppose.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Ironically, he’s the great-great grandfather of Peter Bazalgette, the man who created the TV Production Company “Endemol” – the company that made “Big Brother”, and as such is responsible for piping vast quantities of sh*t back into our homes.

Are you sure? I think Endemol was founded by Joop van der Ende and John de Mol.

Meanwhile, Jake has a new post up with a CDC "omitted result" which Jake thinks "eviscerates" Hooker's critics' claims. I've been following the conversation prior to his latest barf up and he really doesn't understand the principles of epidemiology nor even has a basic understanding of statistics.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Sorry - "had a big hand in" would probably have been better. I think his company was bought out by Endemol and he ended up on the board. Or something.

:-)

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

“Big Brother”, and as such is responsible for piping vast quantities of sh*t back into our homes.

""This episode of Big Brother has been brought to you by Meda Pharmaceuticals and Secret National Security Directives, inc -- Makers of Bravnesoma™. Ask your doctor if.... Don't resist ya some!

Hmm - one of those discussions which might be fun to have
but utlimately seems to founder on definitions. But Ol' Nick needs an advocate...

Theres no doubt the volume of 'stuff written down' is increasing, or even that the number of facts is increasing but are all facts equal? If someone gives me the statistical distribution of heights of humans I have a certain amount of information on one line of paper - if someone gives me a list of all heights of humans I have a considerable stack of paper (size of file whatever) but I'm not sure the information can be said to have increased by the same amount. Perhaps all facts are not equal - possibly for instance inventing the wheel from a starting point of essentially nothing is actually harder (and represents more information) than inventing a car given wheels. To your average caveman advances in flint making over several generations may well have seemed like an explosion in technology and knowledge.

Argument anyone? ;)

btw
'The exponential rate has been increasing'
'somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases'
- if you mean the rate of change is increasing - well thats what exponentials do (the rate also increases exponentially - wherever you are on the curve - which goes to my point above also) - if you mean the coefficient is changing (with some form f(x)) then its not really exponential - I can write a linear change as exp(f(x)) also so it kinda loses its meaning.

re sewer systems ( OT but it's Friday)

London, Paris and NY are famous for their sewer systems which are quite ancient; as you know these cities may not be entirely flat but do not have any terrain that approaches the steep hills of SF ( hills can be more tha 900 feet not far from sea level)-
How in the h3ll does that work**?

On topic:
@ ScienceMom:

Right, Jake's new post simply illustrates his cluelessness.
A commenter wonders about the paid shills, i.e. Orac's minions like 'Herod' (sic).

** underground trains do not venture into the hilly parts

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Addendum: High fibre diets don't make you a popular kid in the classroom.

doh wrong thread sry

How in the h3ll does that work**?

Pumping stations, some, like this one, not far from my current location, are absolutely gorgeous.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

@ Krebiozen:

I know that water is pumped up but I was really more worried about the sewage coming down rapidly...and boring tunnels through solid rock hills...
as you know the city is over 200 years old and is famous for developing cockamamie methods for dealing with steep hills - like cable cars, which are hilarious- so I just wondered how they dealt with that issue prior to modern technology. It seems it might have been difficult and messy.
Oh wait..there's this great big bay and an ocean.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

BTW - sewage is pumped as well. There's a small sewage booster pump station near my house, not nearly as elegant as the sewage pumping station near Krebiozen.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

@ Mephistopheles O'Brien:

Thanks- that's quite enlightening.
I didn't do the Sewer Tour - only the Fire Tour ( self-guided).

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

I'm reminded of visiting Puskar in India some years ago. It's a beautiful little town, a Hindu pilgrimage site built around a sacred lake and encircled by hills. The spectacular gastrointestinal symptoms that I and my companion experienced started within hours of booking into a hotel*, a little late for me to wonder a) where the sewage went and b) where the drinking water came from. After we recovered and explored the town we saw numerous signs outside hotels and eating establishments boasting, "all water boiled for 20 minutes".

* The hotel had bars on its windows, which puzzled me until I noticed the monkeys in the area. I gave one a piece of fruit, and it rewarded me with a silk scarf it had stolen from another guest - which I returned, of course (I suspect it was more a case of not being able to carry both rather than quid pro quo).

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

until I noticed the monkeys in the area. I gave one a piece of fruit, and it rewarded me with a silk scarf

Those are *Shiva's little helpers*. They're vetting if you're a Jehovah's Witness or CIA or whatever. Resist the instinct to *catch* if one happens to pitch you a tannin-looking antique baseball and don't inhale Shivakey-offered weed.

(I suspect it was more a case of not being able to carry both rather than quid pro quo)

Why? Did it give you back the fruit??

Why? Did it give you back the fruit??

It took the fruit and left the scarf, I imagine the monkey required a free hand to climb back to wherever it liked to hang out, and food is more useful to a monkey than a scarf.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Ah, I see the ambiguity. I returned the scarf to its human owner, who was very ungrateful for having her scarf returned - I think she thought I was somehow in cahoots with the monkey.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Skeptiquette, thanks for your kind suggestions and for exploring how childhood vaccines may affect microbial colonization, however, you've neglected to address another core issue discussed: how flora may affect vaccine response leading to injury.

The example in question is African Americans responding to rubella vaccine with twice the antibodies relative to Caucasians and Hispanics. Narad is apparently the only person here understanding the problem, even offering several studies which may help explain kinetics between flora and host immune response; quite generous and much appreciated.

Everyone please continue licking your wounds here in solidarity. Nice to see the discussion about sanitation, well done.

Hi SM! We can talk more about how breastfeeding guards against vaccine injury later. Citation please. We can also talk discuss placental/vertical transmission of protozoans:
http://pptu.lefora.com/topic/3752578/PPTU-AUTISM-ASD-high-incidence-PPT…

Did you know ciliate protozoans are purposely multiplied in wastewater treatment to lower bacteria, then released into the environment unregulated? Bottoms up!

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 10 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith:

Did you know ciliate protozoans are purposely multiplied in wastewater treatment to lower bacteria, then released into the environment unregulated? Bottoms up!

Citation needed.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 11 Oct 2014 #permalink

I suffered for over ten years with an inadequately treated giardia infection, so I know the misery protozoa can cause. However, I take any citation that starts with a quack miranda warning with a large pinch of salt. In my case a week's course of a heavy-duty anti-amoebic drug did the trick.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 11 Oct 2014 #permalink

Everyone please continue licking your wounds here in solidarity.

Anyone else remember "Comical Ali", the Iraqi official under Saddam Hussein who would make ridiculous broadcasts detailng overwhelming victories won by the Iraq forces that had no correspondence whatsoever to reality?

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 11 Oct 2014 #permalink
Did you know ciliate protozoans are purposely multiplied in wastewater treatment to lower bacteria, then released into the environment unregulated? Bottoms up!

Citation needed.

Unsurprisingly, Keith seems to be unable to tell the difference between activated sludge and the correct final result.

I almost cried when Skeptiquette accepted Narad's apology and Narad was glad because of it. Horseshit indeed, entering the water supply by the truckload, packed with protozoans and clostridia.

And then to learn about Kreb's poor intestinal tract was almost too much. All the while, vaccine scientists living in a sterile world.

Still waiting for my comment to be published here; apparently moderators have shut down this thread in their own sterility.

"Correct final result" my ass.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

How many links were in your comment, Keith?

Comments with more than two links automatically go into moderation. It will show up eventually.

Making fun of the people who are attempting to reply to you is hardly conducive to a productive discussion, though.

A summary without link of your main point, including the main conclusion(s) of the supporting citation(s) would be more to the point.

And, if vaccine scientists really were living a sterile world, there would be no microorganisms to vaccinate against. Of course, there would be no macroorganisms to need vaccination either. But, since we depend on microorganisms to digest and metabolize food, we're sort of stuck with both.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mr. Bell, what evidence is there that the MMR vaccine causes at least one case of encephalitis out of a thousand doses? Because that is the rate of encephalitis with actually getting measles.

“Correct final result” my ass.

Gee, Keith, perhaps it's some sort of protozoan slime layer on your foundation that's preventing you from sticking flounces.

Why you volunteered yet another failure is anyone's guess, but let's have it: (1) Quantitatively document your assertion, including a breakdown by types of ciliated protozoans. (2) Demonstrate some freaking upshot of this. (3) Detail your doubtlessly original and well thought out alternative approach to biological wastewater treatment.

Still waiting for my comment to be published here; apparently moderators have shut down this thread in their own sterility.

Nice to see you discover the canonical presentation of a whiny little dimwit.

From "shitwit" to "dimwit," sounds like I've graduated. I couldn't help but return after seeing the group hug, but mostly to thank Skeptiquette and point out her glaring omission. I did the same earlier with Kreb. Narad's the only person here to acknowledge the main point, still caught in tangents like Celiac disease and sanitation as if trying to bury the evidence.

Narad, I also returned to turn you like the walking compost heap you are, prone to spontaneous combustion. Another mind-clearing "walk" would benefit you, but this time instead of to the pub, try one of your UK beaches polluted with sewage 10x over legal limits. I'd post a link, but two posts with links are still in moderation for over 24 hours, so what's the point? Is Harriet Hall sitting on her lovely hands, or perhaps Gorski's sterile hands? Laugh/yawn.

Vaccines have been designed to be injected into germ-free humans in utter disregard of microbial impact on immune response leading to vaccine injury.

But it's not just about toxic pollution skewing flora balance, the reason China and India lead the world in diabetes. People have naturally different flora balance based on ancestral diet and geographic differences including soil microbes. We're all different and react differently to vaccines based on microbial predisposition. Get it now, Kreb? It's about the tenth time I've said it.

Look, Mom, no links for you to lambast, such as the single one about high clostridia known in autism. There are many others for you to ignore and conveniently disregard the issue.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Vaccines have been designed to be injected into germ-free humans in utter disregard of microbial impact on immune response leading to vaccine injury."

Really? Do you have any evidence of that?

Also, if that was true why was it that a huge percentage of children died before age five as recent of a century ago? Did the introduction of the first vaccines cause a sudden rise in these horrible microbial imbalances?

Please read The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review, and tell us what dire consequences greater than measles have plagued the formally "germ-free" humans since 1963 when the first measles vaccines were introduced, and how they became worse when the MMR was introduced in 1971.

germ free humans??? that is not even possible!

By brewandferment (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

Look, Mom, no links for you to lambast, such as the single one about high clostridia known in autism. There are many others for you to ignore and conveniently disregard the issue.

Why not Keithy wee-bits? You have so much proof then it would be trivial to post the evidence. I didn't disregard your "studies", in fact I gave you the consideration of reading through them
if you would bother to look.

germ free humans??? that is not even possible!

I know especially coming from someone rather obsessed with gut microflora and how vaccines supposedly ruin it.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

Exactly, but that's how vaccines scientists apparently view humans. They're not factoring flora's role in immune response.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

From “shitwit” to “dimwit,” sounds like I’ve graduated.

No, Keith, you've gone downhill by whining that you're being censored. I'll let you in on something: my earlier replies to you eventually put me into the automod queue. Rather than bitching and moaning about inadequate service delivery, I took the time to ask myself, "Self, why might these comments not be appearing promptly?"

I couldn’t help but return after seeing the group hug

I'm sure that this pathetic display on your part is well couched in an understanding of the context.

but mostly to thank Skeptiquette and point out her glaring omission. I did the same earlier with Kreb.

You really didn't get the "Comical Ali" thing, did you?

Narad’s the only person here to acknowledge the main point, still caught in tangents like Celiac disease and sanitation as if trying to bury the evidence.

I think I've quite fully acknowledged the main point, which is that the best you can do is randomly throw things against the wall and pretend that it was actually somebody else when called to task.

Look, Mom, no links for you to lambast, such as the single one about high clostridia known in autism.

You've already tried this, Keith. You ran away, as usual.

OK. I don't have any idea what Keith is either smoking or drinking, but I don't want any of it. The only "germ-free" humans on earth are those who have been cremated...

germ free humans??? that is not even possible!

Not in the world of Pasteur but in the world of Beauchamp, it is possible.

Al

Dawn, did you know that your "germs" also known as bacteria, fungi, protozoans and archaea interact with your immune system and help you to create antibodies?

So, when you're vaccinated, your microbes play an important role in how the vaccine works or doesn't work. The issue is that everyone has different levels of the various microbes, so people react differently to vaccines, including leading to vaccine injury. This is why the trend in thought is microbes cause autoimmune disorders.

The problem is the vaccine scientists are only beginning to take this dynamic into account by creating probiotic adjuvants. If they're lucky, these adjuvants might also lower risk of vaccine injury, but that's never seen discussed.

Btw, I happen to live in sunny Florida where our beaches are also severely polluted, probably worse than the UK in some cases such as the Indian River Lagoon where dolphins and manatees are dying at record levels.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

So, when you’re vaccinated, your microbes play an important role in how the vaccine works or doesn’t work. The issue is that everyone has different levels of the various microbes, so people react differently to vaccines, including leading to vaccine injury.

No, Keith. Go read this. Not like what you seem to think passes for reading, but repeatedly.

Then come back.

I will make a further note:

Another mind-clearing “walk” would benefit you, but this time instead of to the pub, try one of your UK beaches polluted with sewage 10x over legal limits.

You lose yet again, Keith.

See links in comment #184 for examples of how bacteria affect immune response including antibody production. Thanks for informative, albeit sterile paper.

The paper may also be considered obsolete, its newest references from 2006. The best microbiome research has taken place in the last few years accompanied by a surge of interest in the field along with the recognition of flora balance as crucial to general health.

What I'm addressing is something the Mayo Clinic cannot answer as of 2014. Moreover, it's obvious microbes affect immune response in vaccination (probioitic adjuvants, breastfeeding). What's new is the idea that this is also mechanism for injury.

I'll continue reading though; thanks again for the paper.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 12 Oct 2014 #permalink

See links in comment #184 for examples of how bacteria affect immune response including antibody production. Thanks for informative, albeit sterile paper.

Keith, your blizzard of undefended assertions has merely landed you back where you started. Babbling about "sterility" does not help you out. A generous interpretation of this bit of spit-up would be that you contend that the whole of vaccine immunology has been upended. Since 2006. Because Keith says so.

Rubella was your initial assertion. Defend it.

@HDB #162

The results might go the wrong way. Some cases of temporal-lobe epilepsy result from encephalitis from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Hoping I'm not missing something myself by your reply, but I meant that instead of rambling on about guts, vaccines and epilepsy Keith might turn up a study that specifically looks at the hypothesis he's proposing. Instead of news articles or supposition, or reliance on papers that don't actually test his hypothesis but look at other things.

@Chris #163

Wow, that's a lot of silliness.

@Narad

Given that Liz’s involvement in these comments has had nothing to do with your asshattery, I would like to suggest that you take this pissy little sign-off and figure out a way for it to be the last thing that pops into your head during an botched episode of autoerotic asphyxiation.

I know you're frustrated but I really find this comment to be too much, especially coming from you. I spend most of these threads thinking "I want to be Narad when I grow up" as I find your comments to be consistently thoughtful, insightful, intelligent, unfailingly patient (if exasperated at times) and witty. Please don't stoop to these sorts of nasty comments.

/end tone trolling

I know you’re frustrated but I really find this comment to be too much

I think I've copped to as much, Flip, the repeat provocation notwithstanding.

"...in some cases such as the Indian River Lagoon where dolphins and manatees are dying at record levels."

It's probably due to vaccines altering the intestinal biome, producing toxic sewage which leaches into the lagoon. Scientists have not properly accounted for this correlation.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

We’re all different and react differently to vaccines based on microbial predisposition. Get it now, Kreb? It’s about the tenth time I’ve said it.

I got it the first time, but I see little evidence that this is the case, other than the single study you linked to. That found that children in a developing country (Bangladesh) showed different responses to various vaccines that appeared to correlate with their gut flora. As I already pointed out, we don't know if the different gut flora caused the different immune responses, or if the different responses and the different gut flora are both the result of pre-existing differences in their immune systems.The positive association between thymic index and Actinobacteria abundance suggests the latter to me. We don't even know if these different responses are clinically significant, and there is no evidence I'm aware of that gut flora increases the risk of vaccine injury.

I don't understand why you think gut 'dysbiosis' (which isn't a real medical term BTW) is responsible for an epidemic of vaccine injuries in the developed world, when there is no evidence for such an epidemic in the first place. Perhaps it's because you seem to believe that vaccines cause more febrile seizures than the diseases they prevent. Again, as I pointed out, in the case of measles this is wrong by a factor of 50 or more, and in fact wild measles is more likely to kill a child than MMR is to cause febrile convulsions. You don't appear to have responded to this, for some reason.

The problem is the vaccine scientists are only beginning to take this dynamic into account by creating probiotic adjuvants. If they’re lucky, these adjuvants might also lower risk of vaccine injury, but that’s never seen discussed.

A probiotic adjuvant simply uses bacteria, or their surface antigens, to give the immune system a nudge at the same time a vaccine is given. How is this going to prevent vaccine injury? Surely, if the immune response is the mechanism for vaccine injury (which is far from certain), an adjuvant of any kind will increase the risk? The study you linked to found that Actinobacteria abundance in the gut was associated with a more robust immune response. Assuming that these bacteria cause that more robust response, wouldn't one expect this to be associated with more vaccine injury, not less.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

Proof reading is so easy when it's too late. I meant to write "any type of gut flora increases" and the last sentence required a question mark.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

Why do so many alternative theorists have to rely upon 'dysbiosis'?
Shades of Henry Bauer! Supposedly., aids, which most of the world attributes to hiv, is caused by gut dysbiosis - especially in gay men who participate in anal intercourse and use too much lube and poppers or suchlike.

Sometimes when an area of research isn't being investigated by any of the thousands of researchers worldwide in a specific area of concern, the reason may not be because they haven't yet thought of its relevance but because it may not be considered a fruitful avenue of investigation or even peripherally feasible.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

Flip, there are no such papers available. You heard it here first. What I'm trying to do is inspire such study. Know of any capable labs willing to accept crowdfunding and jeopardize future Pharma funding? Narad is brilliantly inspiring me to describe the mechanism. Obviously no immunologist, I'm an environmentalist, but would give it a whirl. It would help if people here could grasp the concept, such as Kreb and Skepti who would have something to offer in support of this game-changing construct.

Mayo Clinic found doubled antibodies to rubella vaccine in Somalis who happen to suffer extremely high rates of autism in the USA and Sweden where they call it "Swedish disease." It's something like one in 35 children suffering autism, or 1 in 25 boys, not good odds for prospective parents.

Mayo Clinic doesn't know why the groups react so differently, but they do think knowledge may lead to reducing side effects of vaccines. I sent my article about microbial predisposition to the entire vaccine group at Mayo without response. They're focused on genes.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140226155505.htm

So, how do flora play a role in twice the antibody response and how might this lead to injury? I'm not capable at this point of defending the hypothesis, but want to demonstrate biological plausibility. Here's a general picture:
1) The vaccine infects glial cells of the brain and small intestine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7898052
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/303/8/G887

2) B-cells are activated and cross blood-brain barrier, attacking the gut-brain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3875145
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964178
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/63842

3) Flora interact with B-cells to create antibodies and promote B-cell maturation:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2014/325938/
http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v51/n6/full/pr2002125a.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12473264
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302%2891%2978272-6/…
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/188/9/4315.abstract
http://www.microbecolhealthdis.net/index.php/mehd/article/view/7838
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC368237/
http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4468/2/4/535

4) The inflammatory cascade results in seizures, autism and diabetes.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/03/diabetes-rises-in-…
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130122111512.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/108647.php
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/4/diabetes-childrenrise.ht…

5) Somali flora is different than other groups based on ancestral dietary patterns, possibly higher in propionic acid-producing microbes which is neurotoxic at high levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747729/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20964674/

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

Denice,

Why do so many alternative theorists have to rely upon ‘dysbiosis’?

I suspect that it is because GI disturbances are very common. That's partly due to poor diet, not enough exercise, and obesity, which may all be improved by CAM interventions, despite the implausibility of their underpinnings (e.g. gut dysbiosis). That leads people to conclude that the theories behind the treatments are correct, when really losing a few pounds and eating a bit more fiber are responsible.

Fake illnesses like candida hypersensitivity and systemic candidiasis in the non-immunocompromised are also a marvelous way of selling supplements, herbal treatments and pharmaceuticals like nystatin (why else do naturopaths want the right to prescribe real drugs?).

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed. We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven’t even breastfed, so they’re low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25002669

"Bifidobacterium predominance may enhance thymic development and responses to both oral and parenteral vaccines early in infancy, whereas deviation from this pattern, resulting in greater bacterial diversity, may cause systemic inflammation (neutrophilia) and lower vaccine responses."

I'm failing to see how this random swerve from MMR to Hep B constitutes an argument in favor of delaying until "flora is more developed."

The type of diversity they're referring to in that study is an inflammatory type, not the normally viewed beneficial type of diversity in adult flora associated with good health.

I'm theorizing this inflammatory type of "diversity" is associated with vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

My friend has a newborn son and hasn't given him the MMR vaccine. I'm concerned. Should I report him to Child Protective Services? They shouldn't even let babies leave the hospital without getting all of the vaccines.

Also, the healthy, breastfed infant gut is up to 90% bifidobacteria depending on the, ahem, culture.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 13 Oct 2014 #permalink

My friend has a newborn son and hasn’t given him the MMR vaccine. I’m concerned. Should I report him to Child Protective Services? They shouldn’t even let babies leave the hospital without getting all of the vaccines.

Oh, gosh, a straw man! That's SUCH an inventive arguing technique, one we've NEVER seen before! And gosh, it proves so MUCH when you invent a completely imaginary position and attribute it to your enemies!

Here's a thought, buttmunch. Maybe instead of sneering like a simpleton at a MADE-UP vaccine schedule of "Give ALL THE VACCINES before the babies leave the hospital!!!" you could try investigating the reasons why we CAN'T give all vaccines at once, but want them to have their protective effect as early as is feasible. I'm sure if you did your research honestly (if that's possible for you) you'd discover some of the many heartbreaking stories of infants who contracted whooping cough (a.k.a. rubella, a.k.a. the R in MMR) not because their parents opposed vaccines, but because they weren't old enough yet.

And if you were honest, and had a shred of empathy within you, you might understand that those parents WOULD HAVE gladly given their children all their vaccines before leaving the hospital, had that been possible.

Because then their child wouldn't have DIED.

From a vaccine-preventable disease.

Is ANY of this making it into the tiny crevices of your tiny brain?

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith,
I believe you are suggesting that Hooker's results regarding African American male children are correct (they clearly are not), and that they respond differently to MMR because their gut flora differs from that of people with a different microbiotic heritage. I meant to respond to this before. You wrote:

Studies show major differences in flora balance between African and European children. This is based on generations of dietary habits and geographic differences in soil microbes.

I can buy a difference in dietary habits, but African American children's ancestors have lived in the US for several generations. Are you suggesting that African microbiota persist in their guts? It's not impossible (though surely their 20% non-African ancestry would affect this), but this study found only minor differences in the gut flora of African Americans and Caucasian Americans, and concluded these differences were due to dietary differences.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

"we found significant differences in gut microbiota between the two groups."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930426/

Kreb, yes, I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US (though Somalis tested by Mayo are new immigrants). Microbiota are inherited in the womb and birthing process. And, as you've pointed out, the immune system also guides microbial populations, a reciprocal interaction, meaning people are also genetically hard-wired to have a particular microbial balance.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Kreb, yes, I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US

This seems unlikely to me. Is there any proof of this?

I would suspect that food and water consumption would play a larger roll than where your grandmother grew up.

Of course, there is no compelling evidence that AA kids are at anymore risk of adverse of vaccine injury than any other kids, so trying to find a mechanism for the nonexistent injury is just mental masturbation.

Antaeus:

I’m sure if you did your research honestly (if that’s possible for you) you’d discover some of the many heartbreaking stories of infants who contracted whooping cough (a.k.a. rubella, a.k.a. the R in MMR)...

Whooping Cough is pertussis, the P in DTaP. Having said that, Nick is a first class plonker.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink
I’m sure if you did your research honestly (if that’s possible for you) you’d discover some of the many heartbreaking stories of infants who contracted whooping cough (a.k.a. rubella, a.k.a. the R in MMR)…

Whooping Cough is pertussis, the P in DTaP. Having said that, Nick is a first class plonker.

Argh. Thanks for catching my error, Julian. Not sure why those two wires crossed for me.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Johnny, there is evidence microbiota varies with race, even when living in the same area.
http://www.microbemagazine.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl…
See Figure 5a:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7402/full/nature11234.html

Counterintuitive discovery of higher risk of seizures with delayed MMR. Perhaps mechanism is reduced bifidobacteria which protect from vaccine injury:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/05/14/peds.201…

Let me remind you the CDC Senior Scientist admitted data suggested African Americans males at greater risk of autism by MMR:
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…

The only "masturbation" going on here is in your head. Try using your hands for a change.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Antaeus Feldspar

Please, my friends child is a few months old and didn't get any vaccines. You think this is safe and should be legal? I didn't know the MMR is 1 year and I don't know why that is. The schedule shows 5 shots at 2 months old. He already missed those. Why not add in one more? I've seen research that shows a baby could theoretically get thousands of vaccines at one time. The MMR shot should be given earlier. It's not like something magical happens to a baby at 12 months. It has been proven safe.

Antaeus Feldspar:

"Administer 1 dose of MMR vaccine to infants aged 6 through 11 months before departure from the United States for international travel. These children should be revaccinated with 2 doses of MMR vaccine, the first at age 12 through 15 months (12 months if the child remains in an area where disease risk is high), and the second dose at least 4 weeks later."

MMR can be given earlier than one year.

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2014/chapter-7-international-tra…

"MMR can be given earlier than one year."

For certain special circumstances. It just doesn't work as well.

"Please, my friends child is a few months old and didn’t get any vaccines. You think this is safe and should be legal? I didn’t know the MMR is 1 year and I don’t know why that is"

Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more about vaccines and your local laws before telling your friend anything.

If it bothers you, then make sure to stay away from that friend and their child. You might want to share some of the things you learn with your research. Here are a couple of places to start with:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html
and
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/

Chris:

"One mom's measles story

Megan Campbell knows first-hand how serious measles can be. Her 10-month-old son got measles from an infected child in the waiting room at his doctor’s office."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/fs-parents.html

I've seen stories of 8 month old babies getting measles. I don't know what the CDC is thinking. Parents should just say they are going abroad so they can get the vaccine at 6 months.

I’ve seen stories of 8 month old babies getting measles. I don’t know what the CDC is thinking. Parents should just say they are going abroad so they can get the vaccine at 6 months.

Oh quit wanking off Nick. Megan's child was infected as a result of anti-vaxx parents bringing their measles-infected spawn into a paediatric waiting room. Parents need to vaccinate on time; that's what you should be carping about.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Nick - there are reasons behind the CDC recommendations, including safety profiles, testing that has been done, & health data.

The best way to keep a baby from getting the measles before vaccination is to make sure everyone around the baby is properly vaccinated.

Kreb, yes, I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US

I would suspect that food and water consumption would play a larger roll than where your grandmother grew up.

The gut microbiome is intergenerationally stable. Unless it changes within a generation when a group of immigrants move to the US and acquire the same rates of heart disease and obesity and diabetes as their new culture.

The gut microbiome is intergenerationally stable UNLESS it depends on diet UNLESS it is completely overturned by exposure to water-based sanitation... depending on which real or imagined phenomena it is called upon to explain.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Nick - I appreciate that you take protecting children from preventable diseases seriously. However, that would not be a case for child protective services either by law or by good sense. It would be perfectly reasonable to encourage your friends to get their child immunized, but let's not go overboard. There are certainly some such as yellow fever that I wouldn't recommend unless there's a good reason.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

I believe we are in violent agreement, herr doktor.

My understanding is that a family living for generations in, say, Minnesota is going to have a microbiome different from, say, a family living on the gulf coast. Should a woman from the Minnesota family move down south, her children, born and raised drinking different water, eating more fresh seafood, playing in different dirt, and playing in the ocean would, I suspect, have different bugs crawling around inside. I believe these children's guts would be more like those of their southern classmates, not their grandmothers. This makes sense to me and seems logical.

I could see how the mother's gut might not change -new bugs come in, and find "no vacancy" signs everywhere.

Or maybe not. I admit I'm not an expert, which is why I ask for a citation for the claim that family history is more important than environment.

@Keith Bell #212

Fungi are now decimating wildlife globally including bats, snakes, frogs and people. Where are the missing bacteria which would normally control fungi?

This corridor through Nashville and right down the middle of north, central Alabama *looks* anonalous to me. There's plenty of karst going on. There are plenty of bats and disrespected caverns.

http://whyfiles.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/wns_map.jpg

http://whyfiles.org/2013/stopping-the-slaughter-of-the-bats/

If somebody in that area unexpectedly goes missing for a few days it's

1. fell down a sinkhole
2. went to take a dump and the hogs ate him
3. dementia patient
4. black bagged and helping research noravirus @Gitmo
5. his wife froze and chipper-shreddered him

Any thoughts {I'm pretty sure it's not because of HAARP}??

The type of diversity they’re referring to in that study is an inflammatory type, not the normally viewed beneficial type of diversity in adult flora associated with good health.

Because you say so, Keith? Would you like point out where in the actual paper it says this? Do you think that maybe breast milk might include Enterobacteriales, Pseudomonadales, and Clostridiales (PDF; p. 14), even though no sensible reading of the abstract suggests that these are what is meant by "diversity"?

Thanks for the cool pdf, Narad. The paper in question states:
"Bacterial diversity and abundance of Enterobacteriales, Pseudomonadales, and Clostridiales were associated with neutrophilia and lower vaccine responses." That's an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/07/01/peds.201…

Infant flora is only as good as mom's beginning in the womb. Depending on the bifido strain, I wonder if bifido may be responsible for immune dysregulation when confronted with vaccination.

What's your point?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

The paper in question states:
“Bacterial diversity and abundance of Enterobacteriales, Pseudomonadales, and Clostridiales were associated with neutrophilia and lower vaccine responses.” That’s an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.

Keith, this is the same damn abstract that I was talking about in the first place. The only things that you have demonstrated are that (1) you didn't understand what I wrote and (2) you think adding one unsupported assertion to another is somehow helpful.

Are there any 'HAARPies' in the room?? Because this is just my pet favorite. Do those few points and pull the lines with Google Earth. Don't forget to mark and measure for comparison Tropicana Field...

The quakes of August 22,23 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Virginia_earthquake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Colorado_earthquake

Tropicana Field the night before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWoT6lyIK_g
http://www.sportsgrid.com/mlb/tropicana-field-is-haunted-by-g-g-g-g-gho…

I came up with this after the dc quake and noticed that if Tropicana Field was a HAARP station, then you get a nice Haarpagram centered on america -- specifically, New Madrid. I started with the earthquakes but they are not required to map the pattern ( They just happen to be on the western-most and eastern-most points of the hexagon which just happens to encompass the north american *craton*)

Please zoom into each placemark pin to see the haarp transmitters -- note, Rankin inlet can not be seen here because the resolution is too low. The 'rick perry' one is only half seen as of the 2010 image as it was under construction and that image overlapped a previous one before the 'slab' was laid. The Peru haarp is exactly 4X the Gakona haarp and Texas haarp in area. Also, Minot AFB is not listed but just happens to be in the proper spot.

Zoom into the NASA 50mHz wind profiler (clear-air doppler radar) on Merritt Island next to shuttle landing field 33 { a Wind Profiler}. Check out the similar center. -- yet, the perimeter is an octogon.
=======================================

All coordinates for SuperDARN radar sites are taken from this Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab Page:
http://superdarn.jhuapl.edu/fov/north.html

Tropicana Field : 27°46'05.36"N, 82°39'12.33"W
Rick Perry's Haarp: 27°56'28.80"N, 98°47'50.03"W

Point A : 37°03'03.03"N, 105°08'33.33"W
Point B : 37°55'55.33"N, 76°21'03.33"W

Quake A : 37.05N, 104.66W
Quake B : 37.93N, 77.93W

Gakona haap : 62°23'32.76"N, 145°09'01.47"W
Peru haarp : 11°57'05.33"S, 76°52"27.90"W
China haarp : 40°24'15.91"N, 93°38'9.74"E

Arecibo : 18°20'38.60"N, 66°45'9.88"W
gotta be here : 18°46'23.33"N, 110°55'49.12"W

Minot AFB : 48°24'11.00"N, 101°21'40.97"W

SuperDARNs
þykkvibær : 63.86 N, 19.20 W
Rankin Inlet : 62.82 N, 93.11 W
Kapuskasing : 49.39 N, 82.32 W
Wallops Island : 37.93 N, 75.47 W

Millstone Hill RO : 42°37'3.49"N, 71°29'30.36"W (not official superDARN site)
Blackstone, VA : 37.1 N, 78.0 W
Prince George : 53.98 N, 122.59 W
Saskatoon : 52.16 N, 106.53 W
Goose Bay : 53.32 N, 60.46 W

a Wind Profiler : 28°37'39.15"N, 80°41'42.68"W
a tree farm : 47°44'11.18"N, 79°56'18.46"W
a similar tree farm : 18°34'16.47"N, 68°25'8.36"W
======================================

To make the pattern:

(1) Place pins at Point A, Perry's haarp, Tropicana Field, Gakona Haarp, Peru Haarp.
a. Pull line from Gakona to Perry.
b. Pull line from Tropicana Field to Gakona.
c. Pull line from Peru to Point A.
d. Pull line from Perry to Tropicana field.

(2) Place pin at þykkvibær.
a. Pull line from pykkvibaer to Rick Perry's haarp.
b. Pull line from pykkvibaer to Tropicana Field.
c. Place pin for Wallops Island SuperDARN.
d. Pull segment from Quake B to Wallops
e. Place Point B as 'fudge' between the two.

(3) Place Pin at Rankin Inlet SuperDARN.
a. Pull line From Rankin Inlet to Point B.
b. Pull line from Rankin Inlet to Peru haarp.
c. Pull line from Rankin Inlet to Point A.
d. Place pin at Minot AFB.

(4) Place Pin at Arecibo.
a. Pull line from arecibo to Wallops Island. Pull Wallops Island to Kapuskasing. -- a piecewise fit with SuperDarns (which may, in linear array like that, be able to *steer* the beam somewhat).
b. Arecibo to Point A (or just Tropicana Field).
-----------------------------------------------------------------

This pattern just looks drawn on paper. Those elite reptoids don't want a lop-sided earthquake machine so that, based on Arecibo, we should look to the only other place it could be,{ gotta be here}. Note the presense of two 4-blade per rotor-mast helos. There are at least a couple reasons why some of these points might not align 'perfectly'. Geographic (such as the only place within 500 miles close is a little island), and Geopolitical. Arecibo lines up much nicer if it is just across the pond here {a similar tree farm}. Another place to look to complete this pattern is around Guatemala\El Salvadore.

(5) Place pin at the only place it could be {gotta be here}.
a. Pull line from Rankin Inlet to {gotta be here}.
b. pull line from {gotta be here} to Arecibo.
c. {gotta be here to Perry's}

(6) China haarp through Rankin Inlet, bisecting the A to B baseline.
---------------------------------------------------------------

*I guess* it could just be OtH radar corridors but where would be the fun in that?

neutrophilia [is] an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.

In theory at least, we could sequence the bacterial DNA present on this definition and work out whose ass it was pulled from.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Tim, maybe it's pesticides and GMOs killing commensal flora allowing opportunistic fungal overgrowth. Quite sad considering near extinction events:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/bats-and-snakes-a…

And with colony-collapse disorders in bees associated with pesticides, most people would be surprised that bees also rely on their own gut flora for health:
http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/02/the-secret-life-of-bee-bacteria-g…

Intestinal fungal overgrowth in humans still overlooked:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/08/science/la-sci-sn-fungus-irrita…

Yeast DNA is strikingly similar to human DNA, suggesting they hold key to our locks. Most microbial DNA testing does a poor job identifying fungi and protozoans, instead concentrating on bacteria. Gotta start somewhere.

Narad, what's your point? "Diversity" in that paper includes an abundance of inflammatory microbes.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

Let me remind you the CDC Senior Scientist admitted data suggested African Americans males at greater risk of autism by MMR

Which, you know, proved to be a catastrophe when in full public bloom.

The only “masturbation” going on here is in your head.

Oh, the irony.

Yeast DNA is strikingly similar to human DNA, suggesting they hold key to our locks.

*blink*

Narad, what’s your point? “Diversity” in that paper includes an abundance of inflammatory microbes.

So, you can't successfully the parse the relevant sentences (despite having it handed to you), don't understand the difference between an order and a species, and have no answer whatever for the simple question, "Would you like point out where in the actual paper it says this?

Well played.

The gut microbiome is intergenerationally stable UNLESS it depends on diet UNLESS it is completely overturned by exposure to water-based sanitation…

Or the seasons. There's stability, and then there's stability. How this fits in with Keith's overt Lamarckism is anybody's guess.

It's so simple.
Reports of associated vaccine injuries and deaths are higher by a factor of 20 to 100.
Improperly administered and regulated vaccination programs cause the vast majority of vaccine injuries and deaths.
The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products.

The decades worth of compounding lies and fraudulent epidemiological research forces them to deny the truth by preponderance of propaganda, thereby protecting their ever-mounting fortunes.

2014 MMR package insert - http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

11 pages of warnings precautions contraindications adverse events and adverse reactions. That is down from the 12 pages in the 2010 version. I haven't investigated the differences yet... probably the font or the page's physical length.

Diabetes is still listed as an "adverse reaction".

The FDA defines the difference between "adverse event" and "adverse reaction" as this -
An adverse event can be coincidental with a vaccine or caused by a vaccine. We simply do not know.
An adverse reaction is a drug adverse event for which causal evidence exists. This is not PROOF, but the association is now causal, stronger than coincidental.
"The definition of adverse reactions does not include all adverse events observed during use of a drug. It is limited to those events for which there is some basis to believe there is a causal relationship between occurrence of an adverse event and the use of a drug "
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformat…

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.
Both told me to contact the other about what evidence was available.

When I finally ping-ponged my way back to the FDA they wouldn't admit whether or not any such evidence existed, despite Merck stating the FDA had it.

The FDA rep then threw a different spin on what needed to be done. She told me to submit an FOIA request.
I would have to pay the FDA for the time it took to research for the information, reproduce it and mail it to me.
They couldn't guarantee they could find the info, or release it if they found it... and the rep never expressed the least bit interest in learning that Merck stated the FDA has the information that MMR causes diabetes.
What they did guarantee was that I would be billed for their effort whether or not they found anything and whether or not, if they did find the evidence, they felt it could be released to me.

The MMR package insert also admits MMR is coincidentally associated with or causally associated with many different types of neurological injury and several types of auto-immune reactions.
Of course there will be varying degrees of injury, some without symptoms, some leading to death -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10589903 -
Bitnun et al abstract - "measles inclusion-body encephalitis (MIBE) occurring in an apparently healthy 21-month-old boy 8.5 months after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. He had no prior evidence of immune deficiency and no history of measles exposure or clinical disease."
This child spent two months dying in a hospital, accompanied by his parents. Frustrated doctors didn't find out the cause until the brain biopsy revealed vaccine strain measles infection.

Improper route of infection (vaccination), coupled with an undiagnosed immune problem, resulted in inadvertent vaccination which caused this child's death.

How many more die months after live vaccinations and the cause is not diagnosed. The child's death is just chalked up to an obvious encephalitis, a brain infection, and less motivated autopsy efforts never find that MMR supplied the pathogens?
How many more children recover from MMR-caused encephalitis, but are brain injured?
How many others are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic but end up neurologically affected?
We don't know, nor are we making any active effort to find out what the numbers are. And that is just for neurological injuries.

The HHS Vaccine Injury Table lists many of the reactions in the MMR package insert. These VIT injuries, if they happen within certain timeframes after vaccination, are assumed to be caused by MMR, because of the preponderance of scientific and medical evidence. http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

Vaccines can never be described truthfully as "safe and effective", for anyone. they can be described as "apparently safe and effective for most". That the best that can be said.

Give that MMR package insert a good read. It is an eye-opener.
According to Merck, in the MMR PI, Merck warns that parents, guardians or vaccinees must be made aware of the contraindications, precautions and warnings every time MMR is administered... no one does that.
NO ONE!

Any health professional who would honestly try to go through that entire package insert, as Merck says should be done, every time MMR was administered would be fired if they didn't stop following the directions.

As a result of improper screening we have kids and adults susceptible to vaccine injury being vaccinated and injured every day.
And it is not just MMR vaccinees that are not screened properly. Other live vaccinations carry similar risks, especially the multi-valent ones.

Better screening would result in many live vaccines falling under the 90% threshold for herd immunity. Another reason no one pushes for screening in accordance with package inserts.
Vaccinations rates falling because of proper screening to avoid injuring kids, would result in demands for safer vaccines so more kids and adults could be vaccinated.

Here's an example of how mainstream drug companies and the FDA are tripping themselves up.
CDC/FDA/Merck/researchers all state that 90% of us clear all HPV without drugs doctors or vaccines... the other 10% have Cellular Immunity problems.
That's 10% of the population that can't be vaccinated with any live vaccine unless, as Merck states in their package insert, "until the immune competence of the potential vaccine recipient is demonstrated".
the child who died in the Bitnun study had a low CD8 count. That is a cellular immune deficiency that, coupled with MMR vaccination, led to a child, his parents and healthcare professionals all suffering through a two month unsuccessful effort to save that toddler's life.

Besides cellular immune problems there are others who cannot be vaccinated. Anyone using Nasonex, Flonase, Humira, Enbrel, Remicade, Orencia... many other types of drugs with systemic immune systems affects.
In the package insert Merck warns that "Individuals with a family history of congenital or hereditary immunodeficiency" can't be vaccinated unless it is proved their immune system can handle the live virus in MMR..

MMR causes arthritis - "In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years."
This is not an association, adverse event or reaction. This is proved and admitted by Merck in the MMR PI.

Diabetes is also an autoimmune problem, and evidence exists that MMR causes diabetes. but Merck and the FDA won't simply publish the information. Why not. Isn't that the responsible thing to do. To allow the scrutiny of peer review?

Shouldn't we know for sure whether or not MMR causes diabetes?

HHS/CDC admit that VAERS, since it is voluntary, reports only a "small fraction" of associated adverse events and reactions to vaccinations. -
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

So we don't have active surveillance, the reports we do get are likely 20 - 100 times more numerous, MMR is known to cause autoimmune an neurological problems, and evidence exists (but is not being shared) that MMR causes diabetes (which has been rising epidemically for more than 20 years, coinciding with the tripling of our vaccine schedule, rising GMOs in our food and cell phone radiation... not that there is anything wrong with any of that - http://psrast.org/ - http://www.psrast.org/mobileng/mobilstarteng.htm)

Are vaccines necessary? Yes. But not to protect those kids healthy enough to be vaccinated.
Properly runa dn regulated vaccination programs protect those kids like the young boy in the Bitnun study... those kids who shouldn't be vaccinated with live virus because they have immune problems, or kids who have sensitivities to or are unable to properly metabolize toxins and contaminants in vaccines from manufacturing methods and corporate cost-cutting measures.

Making vaccines safer, as Jenny McCarthy calls for in her "Greening vaccines" campaign, could dramatically increase herd immunity numbers by making more kids vaccinatable.
Safer less toxic vaccines will also reduce the unacceptably high estimated numbers of vaccine associated injuries and deaths.
Maybe then the drug industry executives and CEOs along with their lackeys in the FDA/CDC administrations could actually face the real numbers of deaths and injuries their products cause and real science could find some prevention answers and treatments for the millions they have injured and continue to deny recognition or compensation.

This is simple to see if you take the time to read and understand.

As always,
For the protection of children,
In the interests of truth and science,
Michael Polidori

By Michael Polidori (not verified) on 14 Oct 2014 #permalink

That’s an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.

"Associated with" is a double- or in this case triple-edged sword. Does the inflammatory state lead to a poor immune response which allows gut flora to become unbalanced? Or do the gut flora become unbalanced (because of an intramuscular vaccine, antibiotic overuse, bad curry, or whatever), which leads to a systemic inflammatory response and immune dysfunction? Or does an inflammatory state lead to the other two conditions? Whichever the case, we would see an association. Correlation does not equate to causation and post hoc ergo propter hoc is a trap, especially in combination with conformation bias.

Also, didn't you notice the title of one of the papers you linked to? It's 'Impact of diet in shaping gut microbiota revealed by a comparative study in children from Europe and rural Africa'. Not that it really matters, but doesn't this suggest that gut flora are largely the result of diet, rather than inherited matrilineally? Of course diet is greatly influenced by culture, so the average African American diet is likely to be different to the average Hispanic American or Caucasian American diet, and even more different to that of a west African, just as the diet of the average Michigander is different to that of someone from Kentucky. We tend to eat what our parents ate.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

We tend to eat what our parents ate.
No way am I eating tripe.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

It’s so simple.

Wrong explanations frequently are.

Reports of associated vaccine injuries and deaths are higher by a factor of 20 to 100.

Higher than what? And what are being counted as "reports"? Anyone who's actually interested in the truth realizes that reporting is going to go up and down greatly according to factors that have nothing to do with actual causation. "I saw them talking about this on Oprah, and suddenly I'm sure it explains everything!"

Improperly administered and regulated vaccination programs cause the vast majority of vaccine injuries and deaths.

Uh-hunh. And do you have any evidence to back up that allegation, or is it pulled straight out of your ass with not a shred of backing in reality?

The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products.

Pulled straight out of your ass with not a whit of care whether it corresponds to reality. Got it.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Michael Polidori:

Reports of associated vaccine injuries and deaths are higher by a factor of 20 to 100.

Two things. Operative phrase "Reports of". And Citation needed.

11 pages of warnings precautions contraindications adverse events and adverse reactions. That is down from the 12 pages in the 2010 version. I haven’t investigated the differences yet… probably the font or the page’s physical length.

Or maybe research was done that revealed that some of the adverse events weren't related to the vaccine.

Diabetes is still listed as an “adverse reaction”.
The FDA defines the difference between “adverse event” and “adverse reaction” as this –
An adverse event can be coincidental with a vaccine or caused by a vaccine. We simply do not know.

Then why does the insert read (and I bolded the relevant part)

The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality

?

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.
Both told me to contact the other about what evidence was available.
When I finally ping-ponged my way back to the FDA they wouldn’t admit whether or not any such evidence existed, despite Merck stating the FDA had it.

Or maybe each told you to ask the other because they didn't have any evidence and believed the other might.

The MMR package insert also admits MMR is coincidentally associated with or causally associated with many different types of neurological injury and several types of auto-immune reaction.

See comment above about what the insert really said.

As a result of improper screening we have kids and adults susceptible to vaccine injury being vaccinated and injured every day.
And it is not just MMR vaccinees that are not screened properly. Other live vaccinations carry similar risks, especially the multi-valent ones.

MMR causes arthritis – “In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years.”
This is not an association, adverse event or reaction. This is proved and admitted by Merck in the MMR PI

Once again, see comment about Adverse Reactions above.

CDC/FDA/Merck/researchers all state that 90% of us clear all HPV without drugs doctors or vaccines… the other 10% have Cellular Immunity problems.

Citation needed.

Diabetes is also an autoimmune problem, and evidence exists that MMR causes diabetes.

Only Type 1, not Type 2. And what evidence suggests that MMR causes diabetes?

MMR is known to cause autoimmune an neurological problems, and evidence exists (but is not being shared) that MMR causes diabetes (which has been rising epidemically for more than 20 years, coinciding with the tripling of our vaccine schedule, rising GMOs in our food and cell phone radiation.

Citation needed. Oh, and the rise in diabetes is mainly Type 2, caused by too many calories and not enough exercise. So I'm calling you out for lying.

Are vaccines necessary? Yes. But not to protect those kids healthy enough to be vaccinated.

You are a revolting individual. To you, all those unvaccinated children who died from vaccine preventable diseases were "unwell". Also, given that after MMR vaccination was introduced the number of measles cases fell off a cliff, you are wrong, to put it politely.

Maybe then the drug industry executives and CEOs along with their lackeys in the FDA/CDC administrations could actually face the real numbers of deaths and injuries their products cause and real science could find some prevention answers and treatments for the millions they have injured and continue to deny recognition or compensation.

Or maybe vaccines ARE safe and you're talking horse droppings.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Narad #338

I think I’ve copped to as much, Flip, the repeat provocation notwithstanding.

I must have missed that. Didn't really know whether or not to post, but also didn't want to leave the comment without ... Comment. :)

@Keith #343

Flip, there are no such papers available. You heard it here first. What I’m trying to do is inspire such study. Know of any capable labs willing to accept crowdfunding and jeopardize future Pharma funding?

You're a liar and a fool.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/?term=vaccine+epilepsy

Took me 2 seconds to look whether or not anyone has studied vaccines and epilepsy.

Secondly, you missed my wider point: assuming I accept your premise that no one has studied it, all it means is that no one knows for sure one way or the other. You also need to figure out if there actually *is* a higher prevalence of X, Y and Z since vaccines were introduced, before announcing a mechanism for it. Instead of proclaiming that something is a fact, have the humility to say "there is no evidence, so we do not know".

Thirdly, if you have no expertise to do the study yourself, then you probably have no expertise in judging the state of epidemiology either. Labs and scientists wouldn't jeopardise their funding: as is quite obvious to anyone, those who could replicate studies proving vaccines were harmful would probably win a Nobel and be considered the person who topples decades of history and evidence. Hardly a prominence to be avoided.

I sent my article about microbial predisposition to the entire vaccine group at Mayo without response.

I hardly think they have the time or interest to respond to an environmentalist's spam.

I’m not capable at this point of defending the hypothesis, but want to demonstrate biological plausibility.

You're not capable, but doing it anyway? Dunning-Kruger, paging Dunning-Kruger...

Is it me or is the whole thing a bit ... Underpants gnomes? I mean, most of this stuff is going over my head, but the proposed mechanism to me seems rather ill-defined.

@Nick

Come on, quite clearly trolling. This is what makes it obvious:

I’ve seen research that shows a baby could theoretically get thousands of vaccines at one time.

@Michael #377

Bor-ing. Doesn't anyone ever come up with something new to say? Ah no, not when they sup at the table of McCarthy.

Michael Polidori, if I recall his previous visits, is something of a hit-&-run troll, so refutations of his claims are wasted effort. He will just repeat them on his next drive-by.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

"Give that MMR package insert a good read. It is an eye-opener."

And then read the Physician's Drug Reference (PDR) cover to cover. It's shocking! You'll never take so much as an aspirin ever again.

I had my flu shot yesterday, from a multidose vial with thimerosal. Today I'm going to get a tunafish sandwich from Subway.

Those huge doses of mercury help me concentrate.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Michael Polidori,

Diabetes is still listed as an “adverse reaction”.
It is listed as an adverse reaction reported after MMR, "without regard to causality". It would be astonishing if no one developed any of the listed conditions after MMR, purely by chance. The Institute of Medicine report states that:

The committee concluded the evidence favors rejection of five vaccine–adverse event relationships. These include MMR vaccine and type 1 diabetes, diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTaP) vaccine and type 1 diabetes, MMR vaccine and autism, inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma exacerbation or reactive airway disease episodes, and inactivated influenza vaccine and Bell’s palsy.

That's a strong statement from the IoM, which is very strict about its terminology where burden of evidence is concerned.

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.

I suggest you read the IoM report, which has copious references to evidence that MMR does not cause diabetes. You can download it free at the link I gave above.

This child spent two months dying in a hospital, accompanied by his parents. Frustrated doctors didn’t find out the cause until the brain biopsy revealed vaccine strain measles infection.

This was a child with an unidentified primary immunodeficiency. Imagine what effects a wild measles infection would have had. I find it baffling that antivaxxers get excited about a single case of vaccine injury from 15 years ago, but ignore the 400-500 children who died from measles every year in the US before the measles vaccine was introoduced. Anyway, here's what the paper's authors concluded:

The risk of such a serious adverse event must be balanced by the rarity of such an event and the overwhelming evidence supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in reducing the morbidity and mortality associated with measles. It is significant that our patient was found to suffer from a profound deficiency of CD8 cells as well as dysgammaglobulinemia, which were not suspected clinically at the time of vaccination.

Most significant primary immunodeficiency states in children will be detected before the age of MMR vaccination, and for such children live virus vaccines should be avoided. Clearly, a serious outcome such as occurred for this patient is an exceedingly rare event, and this report should not lead to changes in current immunization practices.

Exceedingly rare versus one death in a thousand? I know which I choose.

Improper route of infection (vaccination), coupled with an undiagnosed immune problem, resulted in inadvertent vaccination which caused this child’s death.

What does "improper route of infection" mean? Is there a proper route of infection? If wild measles is so much better than MMR, why is a child more likely to die from a wild measles infection than it is to suffer febrile seizures (which almost always resolve uneventfully) after MMR? What sane person would think the former is better than the latter? If it wasn't for routine vaccination this child would very likely have contracted a contagious disease and died long before getting MMR.
By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Herr doktor,

Are you sure you don't want to try menudo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menudo_%28soup%29

It's fairly popular here in the southwest. I don't eat it by preference, but I have tried it and it wasn't bad at all. Still haven't tried haggis though, but it's a little harder to find.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Sigh. Maybe I'll give up using blockquote, since I have apparently lost the ability to get it right. Posting in a rush again, Sorry.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

I once ordered tripe tapas at a tapas bar. Never again, and I like liver* and kidneys. Tripe is even worse than jellied eels, which is like a mixture of mud and fish bones set in unflavored jello. I know native London eastenders who love it.

* Cut into thin strips, breadcrumb and flash-fry, serve with a curried mayonnaise - delicious and nutritious.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Michael tries to use the inserts as science, as do most AV'ers. The whole concept of a legal document and not scientific evidence continually eludes them.

Flip, you don't even know what you're searching for, but nice that you've admitted it's all gone over your head. Here it is in a nutshell:

Vaccine scientists live in a sterile world, not factoring flora's role in immune response. Everyone has a different flora balance which may make individuals and groups more prone to vaccine injury. Instead, the Mayo Clinic puts focus on genes.
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-afri…

Kreb, gut flora balance is hardly a simple matter of diet. You can feed two people the same thing and it affects flora differently. This includes gender differences:
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2014/07/29/diet-affects-microbes-differently…

Narad, where's the substance of your comments? You're beginning to become a joke worthy of being ignored. And here I thought you might have something to offer among all these fools following Gorski. And where's Skeptiquette when you need her? Scratching her head like the Mayo Clinic?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

@michael

Still pissed off that you got banned from LR/RB because of your incomprehensible rants?

@keith

Considering that you have not posted any evidence for your assertions, I think I can assume that you are continually lying and that you admit that your pet theory is full of crock.

@Antaeus Feldspar

First. Use your real name so we have the chance to see your conflicts of interest. (All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities).
Nothing like having family, friends and co-workers know what you do for a hobby... or a living.

Annie's reference-less, pretending ignorance, illogical rant demonstrates a clear effort to protect the drug industry from the simple truths I posted.
Annie doesn’t use a single reference or fact contradicting what I have posted or use anything to support whatever it is that Annie's actual position is.
How about defining your position for us Annie?

Annie says - "Wrong explanations frequently are". I assume Annie means everything in my post. She doesn't really say, so I have to guess what she means.
No explanation/evidence/reference of what was wrong in my post, just a general comment that everything was wrong. Annie is not very good at this.
I have plenty of references and quotes. Pick something!

Annie says - "Higher than what? And what are being counted as “reports”?" -
Annie, apparently, is unfamiliar with, or pretending to be unfamiliar with, VAERS.
If she had read the link to the HHS webpage regarding "small fraction" she would have known I was talking about VAERS. But I think she already knew, and feigned ignorance, pretending my post was incompletely referenced (while her post lacked a single reference or fact).

Annie says - "Anyone who’s actually interested in the truth realizes that reporting is going to go up and down greatly according to factors that have nothing to do with actual causation."

Here Annie seems to know what reports I am talking about, and then claims to know something about how wildly they vary & that they don't prove anything.
Annie makes statements of "fact" about reports she already claimed to be ignorant of, but she doesn't have a reference to what reports she is referring to, or why those reports she doesn't know anything about "go up and down greatly" and "have nothing to do with causation".

Here's a reference Annie can use - http://medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.php
VAERS reports by year -
2013 - 29,022 / 2012 - 28,297 / 2011 - 26,400 / 2010 - 31,000

VAERS reports are usually filed by healthcare professionals and parents are encouraged to report the events to those involved in administering the vaccines. This lends more credibility to those reports, filed by individuals with some medical training and more objective than most parents would be.
Seems the reports don't vary greatly, according to the 4 years that I posted.

And the actual number of reports is crudely estimated by HHS to be 20 - 100 times higher, by the admission that VAERS numbers represent only a "small fraction" of actual adverse events.
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

So for 2011 the crudely estimated actual number of reports of associated vaccine adverse events ranges from -
528,000 to 2.64 MILLION -
That's quite an unacceptably wide range and frighteningly large numbers for a vaccine program touted to be "safe and effective". We should have a better handle on this.

Shouldn't we have active surveillance of maybe 5% of vaccinated kids, to get a more accurate estimate?
This is a pretty important issue. Why not active surveillance?

Considering the possibility, admitted by the parent organization of the CDC and FDA, that ANNUAL injuries associated with vaccines are crudely estimated to be in the millions, serious injuries in the hundred of thousands and deaths in the tens of thousands (Not my numbers by the way... HHS estimated numbers. Read the info at the links I posted. Do your own searches at http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.php to check what injuries are reported by year, type, vaccine, symptom and more). A variety of searches can be performed.

Annie also pretends to make a point by saying "this has nothing to do with causation".
Nor did I say it does. Annie pretends to make a point by implying I made a misstatement..

Then Annie equivocates parts of my post with Oprah.
“I saw them talking about this on Oprah, and suddenly I’m sure it explains everything!”
Not sure what Annie is talking about here, but I bet it's about me stating that I called the FDA and Merck about the diabetes thing.
I would suggest Annie make the calls herself, reference Merck's package insert stating Diabetes is an adverse reaction and reference the FDA's definition of what "adverse reaction" means. I have a link in my original post and here is another - http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/scienceresearch/researchareas/oncolo…
My original ref for FDA definition of “Adverse Reaction” -
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformat…

The first link is a more definitive -
"Adverse Event -Any untoward medical occurrence associated with the use of a drug, whether or not considered drug related.
Adverse Reaction – Any Adverse Event caused by a drug"

So when Merck describes diabetes as an adverse reaction to MMR, they are stating causal evidence exists. The Merck rep nor the FDA rep denied the evidence exists.
Both tried to use the IOM declaration that Julie refers to, but both had to admit that when it comes down to the legal interpretation of the contract that is the package insert… if you get diabetes from the MMR you can’t sue Merck and you can’t be compensated by the National Vaccine Injury Program.
Why? Merck’s warning about diabetes precludes their liability, based on the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act.
The Vaccine Injury Table, used by the NVIP for soeedily compensating children or adults injured by vaccines, doesn’t list diabetes as a compensible injury.
To be compensated a child or adult would have to sue the Secretary of Health and Human Services AFTER their application for compensation has been denied by the NVIP.

Now I don’t know why Annie tries to use Oprah as a derogatory association criticizing my post. Oprah is pretty careful about what or who she supports. Her criticisms of the meat industry stood up in Federal Court when the Texas Cattleman’s Association sued her.
While her initial efforts into television were blatantly tabloid, subsequently she went on to present informative, well intentioned, creative and correct ideas and shows to her substantial audience. That audience was mostly well-educated women, so I am surprised that Annie has such a poor view of Oprah. Shocked, really!

I posted - “Improperly administered and regulated vaccination programs cause the vast majority of vaccine injuries and deaths."
Annie commented - "Uh-hunh. And do you have any evidence to back up that allegation, or is it pulled straight out of your ass with not a shred of backing in reality?"

Well Annie... who gets injured by "safe and effective vaccines"?
The Nasonex and MMR package inserts contraindicate each other without mentioning Nasonex or MMR.
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/n/nasonex/nasonex_pi.pdf
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

The Nasonex warnings are amazingly serious, not only for measles exposure but also chickenpox.

They also contradict the ACIP statements in the MMR package insert, that it is okay to get MMR is using Nasonex… somebody is not doing their jobs right.

“Immunosuppression - Persons who are on drugs which suppress the immune system are more susceptible to infections than healthy individuals. Chickenpox and measles, for example, can have a more serious or even fatal course in nonimmune children or adults on corticosteroids. In such children or adults who have not had these diseases, particular care should be taken to avoid exposure. How the dose, route, and duration of corticosteroid administration affect the risk of developing a disseminated infection is not known. The contribution of the underlying disease and/or prior corticosteroid treatment to the risk is also not known. If exposed to chickenpox, prophylaxis with varicella zoster immune globin (VZIG) may be indicated. If exposed to measles, prophylaxis with pooled intramuscular immunoglobulin (IG) may be indicated. (See the respective package inserts for complete VZIG and IG prescribing information.) If chickenpox develops, treatment with antiviral agents may be considered.
Corticosteroids should be used with caution, if at all, in patients with active or quiescent tuberculous infection of the respiratory tract, or in untreated fungal, bacterial, systemic viral infections, or ocular herpes simplex because of the potential for worsening of these infections. ”

That seems to be quite a serious affect nasonex has on immunity and too many “is not known” comments for a drug that can used by a TWO YEAR OLD!!!

I called Merck and the FDA on this also. Merck still has a case pending as a result of my questioning the way the package inserts read.

So if a child is using a corticosteroid nasal spray they cannot receive an MMR shot, until Merck responds to my questions on MMR and corticosteroids.

According to Merck, in kids or adults with primary (genetic) or acquired (induced by drugs or other toxic exposures) immune problems, getting MMR risk the following -
"Measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE), pneumonitis and death as a direct consequence of disseminated measles vaccine virus infection have been reported in immunocompromised individuals inadvertently vaccinated with measles-containing vaccine.."

Also in the MMR PI, Merck pretends nasal sprays are not contraindicated by quoting ACIP -
"The ACIP has stated '... topical steroid therapy (e.g. nasal, skin)... are not immunosuppressive in their usual doses and do not contraindicate the administration of [measles, mumps, or rubella vaccine]"
The MMR package insert is a legal binding contract between Merck and the vaccinees. What ACIP states is irrelevant to this contract.
If Merck warns about corticosteroids suppressing immune systems and lists that as a contraindication or states in the PI that MMR may cause diabetes... those are the contractual warnings. What someone else says (no matter the authority), even when quoted in the package insert, doesn't void the protection Merck has against the vaccinee.
If you die as a result of a "disseminated vaccine strain measles infection" and you were using Nasonex, you have no case against Merck nor can you apply for compensation from the NVIP.
You were warned not to combine the two.

Even the Nasonex package insert warns to not become exposed to measles while using the product, and has definitive steps to take if you do become exposed or contract measles while using Nasonex. Merck says this is a dire situation, requiring immediate medical intervention.

So how about a two year old using Nasonex that is also in a Daycare facility exposed to newly MMR vaccinated, slobbering, sniffling, snot smearing toddlers?
How about adults in the same daycare facility, also using Nasonex, and pregnant?

Well Annie are you ready to admit that our package inserts need a little work? Do you see how there are multiple failures at Merck, ACIP, FDA and CDC over just this one aspect of one vaccine and two contradicting package inserts?

How many more "mistakes" are in package inserts or studies from which package inserts are created? Inserts that are supposedly reviewed by ACIP, CDC, FDA and studies that are peer-reviewed... No wait. Those internal studies at Merck are not available for peer review... you know... the ones that show MMR causes diabetes...

I posted - "The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products."

Annie says - "Pulled straight out of your ass with not a whit of care whether it corresponds to reality. Got it."

Annie never uses a single reference to refute anything I have posted.
Various details of my post support the statement that bloggers here pretend our vaccine program is above reproach, fraudulently and fact-lessly criticizing many competent truthful individuals who say differently.
Annie's unreferenced denials of my mainstream evidence and personal attacks also demonstrate the truth of my statement that Annie claims I "pulled straight out of my ass".

Thanks for your support Annie.
Try using evidence next time, or have someone else write your post.

As always,
For the protection of children,
In the interests of truth and science,
Michael Polidori

By Michael Polidori (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith, let me make this as simple as possible for you.

Do you have ANY evidence which indicates clearly that flora balance IS a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines?

You are NOT being asked - I am stating this so that you cannot come back later and say you weren't asked clearly enough - you are NOT being asked for evidence that merely FITS WITH that speculation. You are being asked ONLY for evidence for which your vaccines-gut flora speculation is THE most likely explanation.

An example of what would count: a case-control study in which a significant number of subjects with injuries that were postulated to be "vaccine injuries" were compared with an appropriate number of controls and some substantive difference in gut flora was observed that distinguished the "injured" from the controls.

An example of what does not count: a link to a journal article which simply says "hey, here's some results which COULD be explainable if there was a link between gut flora and the immune system." Neither have we the FAINTEST interest in diatribes about why a big ol' conspiracy has kept scientists from researching in the directions YOU think they should. You are being challenged to support claims YOU HAVE MADE, and either you have that evidence or you do not.

Present your best evidence within your next three comments (on this or any other thread) or it will be taken as an admission that you do not have such evidence.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Thanks for asking, Feldspar (which contains aluminum known to damage flora). You've actually done a nice job acknowledging the issue.

While there are no such studies as the example you describe because IT'S A NEW THEORY (perhaps this thread will inspire future study), there are plenty of papers detailing flora as "a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines."

Would you care to see any of the dozens of studies about probiotic adjuvants?
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=probiotic+adjuvants+vaccine&b…

Why is it so far-fetched to consider possibility that flora may dysregulate immune response by vaccination leading to vaccine injury? How can anyone discount this possibility just because there are no studies yet?

This field is new to everyone . . . and I'm sure everyone wants to lower risk of vaccine injury. What's the point of just sitting around laughing and yawning about it? Or denigrating potentially groundbreaking ideas?

Facts are clear "that flora balance IS a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines" and the entire vaccination industry is banking on it.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Facts are clear “that flora balance IS a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines” and the entire vaccination industry is banking on it.

How can facts be clear when previously you admit

While there are no such studies as the example you describe because IT’S A NEW THEORY (perhaps this thread will inspire future study)

Facts are clear, although there aren't any facts? Facts are clear, but only if this thread inspires future study which might actually produce such facts?

Why is it so far-fetched to consider possibility that flora may dysregulate immune response by vaccination leading to vaccine injury?

Because as you admit yourself in the second paragraph of your post there's no evidence which supports such a possibility.

Here's a pig study showing a probiotic protective against diarrhea by RV vaccination while enhancing immune response:
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2014/02000/Dual_Functions_of_Lact…

This study uses a prebiotic toward the same effect:
http://cvi.asm.org/content/21/10/1396.short

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-injury-case-offer/

And another about lactobacillus protective from small intestinal injury by RV vaccination:
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2013/12000/Lactobacillus_rhamnosu…

Thanks for inspiring research, Feldspar. The point is, if an infant does not have the optimal mix of microbes, they are more prone to vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith makes the statement -

I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US

I take exception to this claim, and state that I suspect that diet would play a larger roll.

To back his claim up, Keith post a link to an article on microbemagazine[dot]com, where I read in the second paragraph -

Although phylum-level and genus-level components are shared among most individuals, species- and strain-level variations occur in response to factors such as diet, microbemicrobe interactions within the community, and host genetics.

He also refers to an article in Nature, and points to a particular figure. This figure shows the relative abundance of of 4 microbes at 3 locations on the body relative to race. The locations are the tongue, the nostrils, and the skin of the inner elbow. While these locations do play a roll in the overall immune system, how they relate to vaccines is unclear to me.

Just above that figure, I read -

We conclude that most variation in the human microbiome is not well explained by these phenotypic metadata, and other potentially important factors such as short- and long-term diet, daily cycles, founder effects such as mode of delivery, and host genetics should be considered in future analyses.

So, yeah, it does appear that there are indeed differences in the microbiome that are race related, but no evidence presented that race plays a major roll, or a larger roll that diet. Both of his own references list diet first in a list that end with genetics.

So, yeah, genetics does play a roll, but I've never seen anyone here claim otherwise. But Keith sure did prove it to us. But proof that AA kids living in the US for generations have significantly different microbiomes than kids descended from, say, european stock in a way that would change their response to vaccines in a measurable way, not so much.

Keith then goes on to state -

Counterintuitive discovery of higher risk of seizures with delayed MMR. Perhaps mechanism is reduced bifidobacteria which protect from vaccine injury:

Perhaps. There is no evidence presented to support this claim. But, hey, it's as likely as, say, the size of the children's hands.

In response to my statement that there is no compelling evidence that AA kids are at anymore risk of adverse of vaccine injury than any other kids, Keith refers me to Thompson's press release.

You heard it here, folks. Compelling evidence can be found in a press release issued in association to a paper withdrawn from publication.

In my life, I've met and worked with a few intelligence analyst. One lesson I've learned from them is that, while you would like to have an infinite amount of noise free data, you are stuck with a finite amount of noisy data. A self serving press release (is there any other kind?) and a discredited paper is what they would call 'noise'.

Annie’s reference-less, pretending ignorance, illogical rant demonstrates a clear effort to protect the drug industry from the simple truths I posted.

Is that what you call that wall-o'-text containing a bunch of assertions, several of them demonstrably false?

Annie doesn’t use a single reference or fact contradicting what I have posted or use anything to support whatever it is that Annie’s actual position is.

Here's the thing, Polidori. You have to make your case. As I said above, "citation needed". If you're going to make a bunch of claims, some of which are demonstrably false and others questionable, then we have a right to call you out.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

(All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities).

Why?

Using one's real identity does nothing to increase the strength of any argument one makes, nor does using a nickname or handle do anything to decrease thesrength of any argument one makes: all arguments stand or fall on their own as a function of the evidence which can be offered in their support.

The MMR package insert is a legal binding contract between Merck and the vaccinees.

Please cite the case law demonstrating package inserts constitute a legally recognized contractual agreementbetween a producer of vaccines and every consumer of that vaccine.

Sorry, missed the blockquotes:

The MMR package insert is a legal binding contract between Merck and the vaccinees.

Please cite the case law demonstrating package inserts constitute a legally recognized contractual agreementbetween a producer of vaccines and every consumer of that vaccine.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-injury-case-offer/

Let us grant temporarily, for the purpose of argument, the proposition that Hannah Poling's case is typical of "vaccine injury" (even though the cited article makes it clear that there is NOT a scientific consensus on that question) and that Hannah Poling's symptoms included diarrhea.

Why do you imagine that would be relevant to a request for evidence that shows gut flora to be CAUSATIVE of vaccine injury? If you show that broken bones happen because of a car accident, does that in the FAINTEST respect constitute evidence for the proposition "broken bones cause car accidents"? That ANY aspect of the bones is somehow causative of car accidents? If my eyes dilate when I suffer a concussion, does that constitute proof that something in my eyes was a major contributing factor to the concussion and I wouldn't have gotten one if I'd just had different eyes.

Do you, in fact, comprehend the concept that "cause" and "effect" actually come in a particular order and are not interchangeable?

The point is, if an infant does not have the optimal mix of microbes, they are more prone to vaccine injury.

The point is that a statement such as the one you just made is worthless unless it has supporting evidence. Not only do you not have supporting evidence, you couldn't pass an open-book test that asked you to identify what kind of evidence actually WOULD BE supportive of such a statement.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith noted back at #235 that he is not commenting to present evidence or to argue in good faith, but to perform

“Greenpeace tactics” in order to call attention to what I believe is a gaping hole in science

. So it's some kind of polemic street theatre.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Feldspar, you've misconstrued the evidence. Put your thinking cap on.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury which is "significantly reduced" by use of probiotics. This implies microbes are protective from vaccine injury.

But the third study posted takes it a step further. Here it is again, read it slowly, please:
"Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG on Rotavirus-Induced Injury of Ileal Epithelium in Gnotobiotic Pigs"
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2013/12000/Lactobacillus_rhamnosu…
The probiotic prevented injury to the ileum, third section of small intestine, thereby reducing associated diarrhea.

If you knew something about the gut-brain connection, you might imagine human infants as the non-fed group suffering extensive intestinal damage because they weren't given the probiotic becoming autistic epileptics.

I'd bet probiotics pre- and post vaccination becomes the norm to protect from vaccine injury and improve vaccine response, dose and strain dependent. This in contrast to glutathione-lowering drugs like Tylenol (Acetaminophen) leading to injury.

Apparently, Gorski is becoming embarrassed by the length of comments here, advertising his recent, irrelevant post.

bimler, glad you're enjoying the show. Get Narad some popcorn and a Coke so he can foster his overgrowth known as SIBO. I prefer to call it SIBFO (small intestinal bacterial fungal overgrowth).

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Feldspar, you've misconstrued the evidence. Put your thinking cap on.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury which is "significantly reduced" by use of probiotics. This implies microbes are protective from vaccine injury.

But the third study posted takes it a step further. Here it is again, read it slowly, please:
"Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG on Rotavirus-Induced Injury of Ileal Epithelium in Gnotobiotic Pigs"
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2013/12000/Lactobacillus_rhamnosu…
The probiotic prevented injury to the ileum, third section of small intestine, thereby reducing associated diarrhea.

If you knew something about the gut-brain connection, you might imagine human infants as the non-fed group suffering extensive intestinal damage because they weren't given the probiotic becoming autistic epileptics.

I'd bet probiotics pre- and post vaccination becomes the norm to protect from vaccine injury and improve vaccine response, dose and strain dependent. This in contrast to glutathione-lowering drugs like Tylenol (Acetaminophen) leading to injury.

Apparently, Gorski is becoming embarrassed by the length of comments here, advertising his recent, irrelevant post.

bimler, glad you're enjoying the show. Get Narad some popcorn and a Coke so he can foster his overgrowth known as SIBO. I prefer to call it SIBFO (small intestinal bacterial fungal overgrowth).

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities.

I used to use my real name on internet forums until people started making threats against me and my family for civily and politely disagreeing with them about CAM, vaccines etc.. At first it was just hoping I and my family would die of cancer, but it culminated with a chap who believed he had been abducted by aliens, to whom I had foolishly divulged my name and home address, telling me he was on his way to my home with a baseball bat and a can of gasoline with the intention of beating me and my wife to death and burning down my home.

Since that experience I have stuck to pseudonyms.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Here’s a pig study showing a probiotic protective against diarrhea by RV vaccination while enhancing immune response:

No, it's a study that found that diarrhea due to rotavirus infection is ameliorated by probiotics, nothing to do with rotavirus vaccination.

This study uses a prebiotic toward the same effect:

Yes, in gnotobiotic pigs (with no, or known microbiota), but how does this support your hypothesis? It doesn't seem surprising to me that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines. How does this suggest that 'dysbiosis' causes the exaggerated immune response that is usually blamed for vaccine injury, such as Hannah Poling's, since you bring up that tragic case?

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury:

Personally I am very skeptical that Hannah Poling's problems had anything to do with vaccination. Her mitochondrial disorder and/or chronic ear infection seem to me more likely to be responsible. As the article states:

A fever caused by an ear infection or the flu would likely have triggered the autism symptoms if they occurred before or between the ages of 24 and 36 months, he says, which is when classic, regressive autism, which affects one third of sufferers, usually appears.

Finally:

And another about lactobacillus protective from small intestinal injury by RV vaccination:

No, not RV vaccination, again RV infection: "a gnotobiotic (Gn) pig model of virulent human rotavirus (HRV) infection". Virulent human rotavirus infection is not the same as RV vaccination.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

11 pages of warnings precautions contraindications adverse events and adverse reactions. That is down from the 12 pages in the 2010 version.

I've got less than five by a rough count.

I haven’t investigated the differences yet… probably the font or the page’s physical length.

Um, yah.

[ObPossDup]

I cannot believe I just ran a document compare between the current MMR insert and the Wayback Machine's 2013 October 21 archived version for the sake of a lazy clod such as Polidori.

You know why there's one fewer page? No logo on the current version, and the latter's use of references in braces rather than superscripted note citations. The other changes include the use of ® and ™ rather than footnotes and some modifications in the reference list. Oh, and there's a font change for the em dash under "How Supplied."

The only inserted text is "acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transverse myelitis" under nervous system adverse reactions and reference 45, Angel et al.

But "probably the font or the page's physical length." Sure thing.

The FDA rep then threw a different spin on what needed to be done. She told me to submit an FOIA request.

I would have to pay the FDA for the time it took to research for the information, reproduce it and mail it to me....

What they did guarantee was that I would be billed for their effort whether or not they found anything and whether or not, if they did find the evidence, they felt it could be released to me.

Gee, I guess after all the time you claim to have spent on the blower irritating people (I assume you're about as coherent telephonically as in the written medium, you were just too darned pooped for anything other than ginning up a sob story.

Didn't even bother with the absolutely free request per se, eh? Missed the whole "public interest" fee waiver? Whoops.

^ Close paren after 'medium'.

@Keith:

Narad, where’s the substance of your comments?

I'm not sure how much more clearly I can point out your characteristic habit of changing the subject (e.g., "Water Treatment! Drink up!") or doing that and then circling back when challenged. Or, say, being given a response to your repeated overreadings of an abstract and being able to muster nothing more than quoting from the same damn thing as though nothing had happened?

Remember that whole "B cell maturation"/"Peyer's patches" routine somehow explaining higher circulating rubella antibodies many years after vaccination, Keith? I'd hate to have missed that one.

Now that I think about it, I don't recall a reconciliation of

Also, the healthy, breastfed infant gut is up to 90% bifidobacteria depending on the, ahem, culture

with

Thanks for the cool pdf, Narad.

When the kewl PDF straightforwardly illustrated that the funbag juice "ahem, culture" – and, mind you, you've thought it a RLY clever maneuver to try to speculate upon lack of teat-rearing as an evasion – is chock-full of what, as far as I can tell, you think must represent "an inflammatory state."

Have you ever stopped for one moment to ask yourself why you would say something as stupid as "the culture" with respect to breast milk? Do I have to lead you by the nose to see whether you even understand how this works? There are two options, the long-standing one and the novel one. Address them.

@Antaeus Feldspar

First. Use your real name so we have the chance to see your conflicts of interest. (All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities).

Science supporters would be more likely to use our real names, as a signifier of our good faith, if we didn't know for a fact that using your real name around psychopathic cranks (a population without which the antivaccine movement would be missing much of its membership) tends to lead to harassment by said cranks. Speaking of which ...

Nothing like having family, friends and co-workers know what you do for a hobby ... or a living.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Goofus couldn't even wait until the next paragraph to reveal that the real reason he wants real names to be revealed to him is so that he can target our friends, our family, our co-workers, and drag them into a fight that has nothing to do with them. It's a not-so-veiled threat, intended to intimidate people into silence. Instead, its only effect is to demonstrate Goofus' moral bankruptcy and crude intellect.

Annie’s reference-less, pretending ignorance, illogical rant demonstrates a clear effort to protect the drug industry from the simple truths I posted.

Goofus' assumption of motive (i.e., "a clear effort to protect the drug industry") with absolutely no factual basis for that assumption demonstrates that his ability in what psychologists call "reality testing" is negligible.

Annie says – "Wrong explanations frequently are". I assume Annie means everything in my post. She doesn't really say, so I have to guess what she means.

Note Goofus' desire for a double standard. Here is the original exchange: the very first sentence of his very first comment on this thread, followed by my first sentence in my reply to that comment:

It's so simple.

Wrong explanations frequently are.

As is expected from a grown adult in a discussion between grown adults, I followed the principle of charity. I made the common-sense assumption that, if the very first sentence was "It's so simple", "it" would refer to that which Goofus would then proceed to expound (which he did, at length, in at least twenty-seven paragraphs). Goofus expected me, and all readers, to know what he was referring to when he said "it" - and yet pretends that it's beyond his mental powers to understand that a direct reply to that very sentence just might be about the very same referent, the one which he found "it" sufficient to evoke.

If I had no integrity, and I could somehow believe that it was not beneath my dignity to stoop to specious quibbling that would be given unearned dignity by calling it "nit-picking", I could have easily used Goofus' own tiresome techniques on him. "'It is simple'? How on Earth could ANYONE guess what you mean by 'it'?? 'It' could refer to anything in the entire world! How are we supposed to know which, out of ALL the ideas on the entire page (assuming that we could even trust him to be literally 'on the same page' as everyone he expects to undrstand him) Goofus means by 'it'?? Good God, even if we LIMITED OURSELVES to just his OWN spew, we still have twenty-seven paragraphs of dreck, in any ONE of which this mysterious thing he can only refer to as 'it' might be lurking! Obviously, Goofus is TERRIBLE at making himself understood, as proven by my ability to pretend I can't comprehend him!!"

But that is tiresome and dull, and having proven my point, I do not intend to dignify Goofus' employment of these puerile and hypocritical tactics by giving them further attention.

Annie says – "Higher than what? And what are being counted as 'reports'?" –
Annie, apparently, is unfamiliar with, or pretending to be unfamiliar with, VAERS.

I will have to quote Randall Munroe on this: "Communicating badly and then acting smug when you're misunderstood is not cleverness." By "reports", Goofus could have meant "case reports entered through VSD", "reports entered into VAERS", "reports offered on anti-vaccine Facebook groups", or something else entirely. Is it clear which he meant? No. Is his smug declaration of points scored, because he was asked for clarification of his vagueness, appropriate behavior for an adult in a mature discussion? No.

Since "reports" is now clarified as "reports to VAERS", my statement that "reporting is going to go up and down greatly according to factors that have nothing to do with actual causation" certainly applies, as I believe it would for anything except "case reports entered through VSD". Is anyone actually naive enough to believe that when the newspaper headlines were full of Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent study purporting to have found a meaningful association between MMR and autism, it didn't result in more reports to VAERS?

I'm going to take the liberty of reproducing in its entirety, with added emphasis, a certain lengthy passage of text from http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index :

VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

"Underreporting" is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

DISCLAIMER: Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.

Anyone who wishes to examine VAERS data must assert that they have read and understood that text on the limitations of VAERS reports. Anyone who actually has understood that text would understand why you can't simply say "Reporting has gone up (over some unstated time period) and that must mean that actual causation has gone up!"

I could speculate on whether Goofus' failure is one of understanding or of honesty, but truth be told, it doesn't matter. He is choosing to assert that the VAERS data proves his beliefs on causation; VAERS itself says the data does not imply causality. PROTIP: When the very source of your data says "you can't make these assumptions about the data", and your argument makes exactly those assumptions about the data, your argument is dead in the water.

I posted – "The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products."

Annie says – "Pulled straight out of your ass with not a whit of care whether it corresponds to reality. Got it."

Annie never uses a single reference to refute anything I have posted.

Goofus would like to pretend he didn't insert, and isn't responsible for, that "so that" clause which makes an allegation he has absolutely no evidence to support. The question is not "can we come up with a reference to refute his crazy conspiracy theory under which commenters here are agreeing with the position held by over 99.9% of the medical and scientific community of the world because we're paid to do so?" because there's no reason to give credence to that conspiracy theory in the first place.

He cannot deny that he made that accusation, and by making it, he showed himself to be deeply dishonest. Then he showed himself to be clearly sociopathic when he first claimed we should be using our real names, and then made clear that what he intended to do with any names revealed to him was to harass our friends, families and co-workers. Why he believes that, if he continues to talk, it'll somehow convince people to think a word he said could ever be trusted, is a testament to his lack of self-awareness.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

^ "two options regarding bifidobacteria"

Good points, Kreb, thanks. Still, probiotics were used in conjunction with vaccination and were effective in reducing injury. I realize it's not direct evidence, but it's in the ballpark.

Here's another interesting gnotobiotic pig study published last month:
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/6/1/39
"Several relevant issues that were not resolved in the present study will be addressed in future studies. These include (a) the effect of vaccination on the gut microbiota."

These studies are demonstrating the importance of microbes in avoiding injury. Future studies may be designed to discover how certain microbes may interact with vaccines to dysregulate immunity. Or injury may also be result of missing key protective microbes such as lactobacillus and bifidobacteria.
"Imbalance in gut microbiota population may render the intestinal mucosa susceptible to injuries, infections, inflammation, abnormal digestion, immune imbalance, immune reaction and cross reaction in other tissues including the brain."
"E. coli bacteria is able to enter the intestinal cells, change the actin dynamics, modulate the immune response and disrupt the tight junctions, leading to a compromised barrier and increased intestinal permeability resulting in diarrhea[54]."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4123375/

Kreb, if you're not surprised "that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines," then I doubt you'd be surprised to learn flora is responsible for doubling antibodies in response to rubella vaccination in Somali immigrants.

Sending a dozen gnotobiotic pigs to Narad's home for study.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 15 Oct 2014 #permalink

Keith,

Still, probiotics were used in conjunction with vaccination and were effective in reducing injury. I realize it’s not direct evidence, but it’s in the ballpark.

Not really. Probiotics increased immune response to the rotavirus vaccine as we would expect. They also reduced diarrhea in a virulent rotavirus infection. I don't see how that is evidence that they reduce vaccine injury.

Claiming that diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury because Hannah Poling had diarrhea is really clutching at straws, especially since her mitochondrial disorder is so rare (only four other case are known, IIRC).

It's odd that in this study that you linked to:

The MidLA, but not high-dose LA or LoLA, significantly reduced rotavirus diarrhea (MidLA-only group) and significantly improved the protection conferred by AttHRV vaccine (MidLA + AttHRV group). Associated with the increased protection, MidLA significantly enhanced rotavirus-specific antibody, ASCs, and memory B-cell responses to AttHRV vaccine. High-dose LA or LoLA did not enhance virus-specific antibody and ASC responses, and hence did not improve the vaccine efficacy.

'LA' is Lactobacillus acidophilus and the 'LoLA', 'Mid', and 'high-dose' refer to the dose of LA. Only the medium LA dose had these effects, which suggests you can have too much of a good thing.
As I have alluded to before, most alleged vaccine injuries are accompanied by a high fever and febrile convulsions, suggesting an exaggerated immune response to the vaccine. Showing evidence that probiotics lead to an enhanced immune response to vaccination and that dysbiosis leads to a less robust immune response hardly fits with this, does it?

Here’s another interesting gnotobiotic pig study published last month:

They transplanted neonatal human gut flora into these gnotobiotic pigs, vaccinated them with RV vaccine, and gave all of them a virulent RV infection. The study was looking at the effects of probiotics on the virulent RV infection. How does this translate into evidence about vaccine injury? They found no effects, by the way:

The LGG feeding in this study did not significantly improve the protection conferred by the rotavirus vaccine. Changes in the microbiome due to LGG feeding were not associated with a change in the protective efficacy of the vaccine.

You quote the study:

“Several relevant issues that were not resolved in the present study will be addressed in future studies. These include (a) the effect of vaccination on the gut microbiota.”

They also state that:

Previous studies have demonstrated that the oral HRV vaccine does not alter the gut microbiota in older children.

By "older children", they are referring to the age at which RV vaccine is given.
They cite this study to support this. If an oral attenuated RV vaccine doesn't affect the gut flora, why would inactivated or attenuated parenteral vaccines?

These studies are demonstrating the importance of microbes in avoiding injury.

The importance of microbes in reducing the effects of virulent RV infection, yes. In avoiding vaccine injury, not so much.

Future studies may be designed to discover how certain microbes may interact with vaccines to dysregulate immunity. Or injury may also be result of missing key protective microbes such as lactobacillus and bifidobacteria.

That may be the case, though some of the evidence you have presented is inconsistent with this. It seems to me you aren't simply proposing a novel hypothesis, you have decided prematurely that it is true, and you are rather desperately citing irrelevant studies to support it.

“Imbalance in gut microbiota population may render the intestinal mucosa susceptible to injuries, infections, inflammation, abnormal digestion, immune imbalance, immune reaction and cross reaction in other tissues including the brain.”

This is a review of the evidence for GI involvement in ASD, and the operative word in the quote is "may". The evidence for an association between GI disturbances and ASD is equivocal. Some studies did find an association, others did not, for example, as the review points out, "a nested-case control study using United Kingdom database indicated that there was not a considerable association between GI abnormalities and ASD". This doesn't deter the authors from speculating about the causes of this possibly non-existent association. Also relevant, perhaps, they state, "other studies didn’t find a difference in GI microbiota of ASD children with and without GI disturbances". So even if there is an association between GI disturbance and ASD, it may have nothing to do with gut flora.

“E. coli bacteria is able to enter the intestinal cells, change the actin dynamics, modulate the immune response and disrupt the tight junctions, leading to a compromised barrier and increased intestinal permeability resulting in diarrhea.”

I don't see the relevance. How does the etiology of E. coli infection relate to vaccine injury?

Kreb, if you’re not surprised “that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines,” then I doubt you’d be surprised to learn flora is responsible for doubling antibodies in response to rubella vaccination in Somali immigrants.

No, I'm not. Having healthy gut flora is clearly a good thing, and results in better response to vaccines. What I don't get is why you think any of this suggests that gut flora are significantly related to vaccine injury or autism, either by making children more susceptible to either, or being affected by vaccination. I'm not saying it's impossible there's a connection, but I don't really see anything in the evidence that supports one.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities

MICHAEL POLIDORI MAKES THE RULES. RESPECT HIS AUTHORITY.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Herr Doktor

I totally read that in Cartman's voice.

GET YOUR OWN BLOG MICHAEL POLIDORI AND SET YOUR OWN RULES.

At this point it takes a bit of imagination, Kreb. Consider the fact we still don't understand the true mechanism behind many important drugs; we just know they work, aspirin included.

So, we know the right microbes prevent injury and increase immune response to vaccination. Therefore, might it be possible the wrong mix of microbes lead to injury via dysregulating immune response to vaccination? It doesn't take much imagination to realize when protective microbes are missing, the body is prone to injury.

Have you heard of environmental enteropathy? Vaccines such as polio are known to fail because of this form of gut dysbiosis:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/12/187
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372657/

Vaccines are ineffective in gut dysbiosis because they rely on flora for immune response. Diarrhea not required. We used to think the problem was malnutrition, only recently acknowledging malabsorption syndrome due to poor sanitation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/asia/poor-sanitation-in-india-m…

We can't simply blame vaccines for vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

At this point it takes a bit of imagination, Kreb. Consider the fact we still don’t understand the true mechanism behind many important drugs; we just know they work, aspirin included.

Uhhh...no. Aspirin inhibits both isoforms of the enzyme cyclooxygenase (COX! and COX2), preventing the conversion of arachadonic acid into prostaglandins which are pro-inflamatory and u-regulating the production of lipoxins, most of which are anti-inflammatory.

I knew this off the top of my head, but seriously--two minutes spent on a google search would have prevented you from making such a fundamental error in the first two sentences of your post..

That should be COX1, not COX!.

Hi Narad,
It's me again. Apparently the FDA tells the public one thing and the actual biologics industry something a little different, hard to believe I know. Here's your comments from a while back to me when I mentioned that drug/vaccine manufacturers don't have to claim GRAS excipient ingredients, which can include legume oils.

Narad
October 2, 2014
You’re a fυcking moron. GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.
#72 Narad
October 2, 2014
Here, fυckwit. It’s all been heard over and over before.

After a little digging, here's what the IPEC has to say about it, the International Pharmaceutical Excipient Council. Hardly an antivax site.

How are new excipients permitted for use in U.S. drug products? Would the procedure be similar in the case of a previously allowed (GRAS) excipient for a new pharmaceutical use?

As noted in the answer to the previous question, data supporting the safety and functionality of an excipient in a drug product is included in data and clinical reports submitted to support a new drug application (NDA). In the case of a new pharmaceutical use for an excipient, it is likely that some necessary data may exist in a confidential drug master file at FDA. However, in all instances involving pharmaceutical use, FDA will require an applicant to provide data demonstrating that 1) the excipient is safe in the amount it will be used or consumed in the finished drug throughout the product's recommended or prescribed duration of use by those who will take the product. In addition, the applicant must 2) demonstrate that the substance meets applicable compendial standards where they apply; 3) that it performs its intended function in the product; that it 4) does not adversely affect the bioavailability and performance of the active drug; and 5) is manufactured in accordance with appropriate standards of good manufacturing practice suitable to that kind of excipient. Still, as noted earlier, there is no FDA regulatory approval system that is exclusively applicable to pharmaceutical excipients. Thus, the scope and amount of necessary data to support a substance or its use always must be negotiated with FDA and will be determined on a case by case basis.

Would you like the Pharmatech study that compares the reference standards of monogram excipient oils such as almond, peanut and soybean?

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

Mr. Bell: "Have you heard of environmental enteropathy? Vaccines such as polio are known to fail because of this form of gut dysbiosis"

Then get the IPV. Problem solved.

Now go back and answer my question in comment #325 about the relative risk of measles versus the MMR, a vaccine that has been used in the USA since 1971.

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

And your evidence that it is happening, such that it would be necesary to pretend that it was not, would be....what exactly, Stu?

Be specific.

My post at 423 should have read "COX1 and COX2", not "COX! and COX2" (held onto the shift key a mite too long...)

I'm not sure how Stu is making that particular leap of logic, since it is universally known that peanut oil is not & has not ever been utilized in things like vaccines available for public use.

JGC
You're kinda missing the point. Vaccine manufacturers don't have to disclose excipients, so there is no proof. Only evidence of the result

It would be like trying to prove there's a bullet in the chamber in Russian Roulette. Only the evidence afterwards tends to prove it.

I was addressing the contention that undisclosed peanut oil excipient use is highly likely.

Lawrence
Are you including adjuvant 65-4 when you make that statement. It was developed in the 60's and used and studied until at least the mid 70's.

So your statement "has not ever" is a little dubious. Excipients are used in all vaccine manufacturing, are you contending that you have proof that peanut oil has never been used in any of them?

,,,since it is universally known that peanut oil is not & has not ever been utilized in things like vaccines available for public use.

The simplest answer is probably that whatever universe Stu's living in isn't the one we all share. Wonder what color his sky is?

Stu:

Would you like the Pharmatech study that compares the reference standards of monogram excipient oils such as almond, peanut and soybean?

Yes please.

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

Citation needed. Your comment does not show that that is happening. In fact, it doesn't even show that it could be happening.

You’re kinda missing the point. Vaccine manufacturers don’t have to disclose excipients, so there is no proof. Only evidence of the result.

Your previous comments do not support your conjecture that vaccine manufacturers don't have to disclose excipients.
I must insist that you provide proof that peanut oil is being used as an adjuvant.

I was addressing the contention that undisclosed peanut oil excipient use is highly likely.

Nothing you have said proves that.

Excipients are used in all vaccine manufacturing, are you contending that you have proof that peanut oil has never been used in any of them?

Lawrence doesn't need to prove that they haven't, you have to prove that they have, and nothing you have said rises to the standard of evidence.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Excipient oil study:
http://www.pharmtech.com/pharmtech/Feature+Articles/Fixed-Oil-Excipient…

The fact that you guys need proof of peanut oil in vaccines is a big step, because you acknowledge the fact that it would be likely to cause allergic/autoimmune reactions.

Peanut oil is the tip of the iceburg, vaccines have verifiable ingredients that could have much more harmful effects:
Human diploid fibroblast cells (lung cells)
Fetal Bovine Serum
Bovine Casein
Vero monkey kidney cells
Bovine Albumin
Egg protein
Recombinant human albumin
Chick embryo cells
Porcine vero cells detected to have DNA from porcine circoviruses
Bovine Muscle tissue
Embryonic guinea pig cells
Human embryonic lung cultures

Don't you think those ingredients might create some kind of allergic/autoimmune response?

That would be the same adjuvant 65-4 that was never licensed in the US and never used in vaccines approved in the US, right?

The fact that you guys need proof of peanut oil in vaccines is a big step, because you acknowledge the fact that it would be likely to cause allergic/autoimmune reactions.

To exactly the same extent that, in response to your insistance that ground leprechaun gonads had been used in vaccine formulations we requested you provide evidence that leprechauns 1) existed 2) had gonads and 3) their ground gonads were being used in vaccines, we'd be acknowledging ground leprechaun gonads were likely to cause allergic/autoimmune reactions.

That is, not to any extent whatsoever.

First show us it's there: then we can discuss whether there's any evidence suggesting it causes allergic/autoimmune reactions.

.

Don’t you think those ingredients might create some kind of allergic/autoimmune response?

I know of no evidence that any of these have been shown to cause autoimmune reactions. I do know of evidence that egg proteins may cause reactions in individuals with allergies to eggs (which is why the FDA< CDC and the manufacturers of vaccines containing these proteins reccomend those individuals not receive them.

Certainly in the absence of any evidence a particular excipient, adjuvant or trace ingredient causs allergic or autoimmune reactions there's no reason to think they might-

So, got any?

You’re kinda missing the point. Vaccine manufacturers don’t have to disclose excipients, so there is no proof.

Which means that your insistance that any vaccine contains peanut oil as an excipients is wholly speculative. Agreed?

It would be like trying to prove there’s a bullet in the chamber in Russian Roulette. Only the evidence afterwards tends to prove it.

And your "evidence afterward" demonstrating vaccines contain peanut oil would be--what, exactly? Be specific.

BTW, you do understand that--by definition--vaccine adjuvants do not qualify as excipients?

The FDA defines excipients as generally inert substances added to a drug formulation as a diluent, vehicle, bulking agent or to produce desired consistency.

Adjuvants aren't inert: they're defined as substances added to a drug formulation to enable or improve the activity of that formulation's active ingredient or ingredients.

So even if you were correct, and manufacturers wouldn't have to list peanut oil if it were present as an excipient, they would still be required to list it if it were included as an adjuvant.

Stu:

Also, as stated before, the word allergy was invented to describe the result of immunizations.

I forget the thread where you claimed that, but I distinctly remember that your claim was proven false there.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Never mind. It was this thread.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Pirquet invented the word allergy
Richet invented the word anaphylaxis
Both were in connection to immunization reactions.

Is this the same Stu who flounced off in comment #74? The same Stu who thinks that anti-diphtheria serum is a vaccine?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Did you take the time to read the publications you linked to, Stu? If you did, perhaps you could take a bit more time to understand they--they don't support your position.

The first describes the deliberate induction of autoimmunity in mice by repeated immunization (up to 8 times over 40 days) which does not model routine childhood vaccination.

The second ascribes the generation of auto-antibodies in dogs to their a genetic susceptibility to autoimmune diseases, noting the pathogenic significance of vaccine-associated autoantibodies is uncertain and no evidence of autoimmune disease was found in the vaccinated dogs. The authors conclude that whiel steps may be taken to reduce the likelihood vaccination might contribute to autoimmunity in dogs "Not vaccinating dogs is not a viable option, because the benefits of vaccination clearly outweigh the still uncertain risks of immune-mediated disease."

Stu, please click on the links in herr doktor bimler's comment at #43 and Narad's comment at #65. Your claims have already been refuted.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Stu: "lso, as stated before, the word allergy was invented to describe the result of immunizations."

The first link has been posted before, and again you don't seem to have read it. Check out what it says in its conclusions, note the two bolded words: "Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host's immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized criticality."

It was done in mice.

The second one was on dogs, and the rabies vaccine. Call us when routine rabies vaccines are added to the American pediatric schedule.

In the future restrict your rantings to human beings and vaccines that are actually on the American pediatric schedule.

Keith,

At this point it takes a bit of imagination, Kreb. Consider the fact we still don’t understand the true mechanism behind many important drugs; we just know they work, aspirin included.

Science doesn't know everything, but that doesn't give us free rein to fill in the gaps with stuff we simply make up using our imagination. As JGC pointed out, we do know how aspirin works. I have lost count of how many times I have seen it claimed that we don't as a justification for using CAM treatments that have no evidence to support them.

So, we know the right microbes prevent injury

I don't think you have demonstrated this. You found studies that showed probiotics reduce diarrhea in a virulent rotavirus infection, which is not related to vaccine injury.

and increase immune response to vaccination.

Agreed.

Therefore, might it be possible the wrong mix of microbes lead to injury via dysregulating immune response to vaccination? It doesn’t take much imagination to realize when protective microbes are missing, the body is prone to injury.

Prone to injury from a virulent wild gastrointestinal infection, yes. From a parenteral vaccine or an attenuated oral vaccine? I see no evidence remotely suggesting that.

Have you heard of environmental enteropathy? Vaccines such as polio are known to fail because of this form of gut dysbiosis:

From your first link:

The cause of EE is postulated to be inflammation from continuous fecal-oral exposure to enteropathogens.

I don't think you can equate "continuous fecal-oral exposure to enteropathogens" to gut dysbiosis. I also don't think EE is common in the developed world.

Vaccines are ineffective in gut dysbiosis because they rely on flora for immune response. Diarrhea not required. We used to think the problem was malnutrition, only recently acknowledging malabsorption syndrome due to poor sanitation.

Vaccine failure due to chronic exposure to enteropathogens is not the same as vaccine injury in the developed world where we have good hygiene. Outbreaks of infection from drinking water are relatively rare in the developed world, though perhaps more common in the US where many people still have their own wells which can get contaminated with sewage and the water is untreated.

We can’t simply blame vaccines for vaccine injury.

There may be more to learn about vaccine injury, and gut flora may (or may not) be involved. However, conflating vaccine failure with vaccine injury is a mistake.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

The fact that you guys need proof of peanut oil in vaccines is a big step, because you acknowledge the fact that it would be likely to cause allergic/autoimmune reactions.

That is a powerful line of argument. Either people question the bullsh1t Stu copy-pastes from SmartVax, or they don't; either way he reads it as an acknowledgement of his arachibutyrophobia.
At least his current agitation about excipients is a tacit admission that his earlier gibberish about adjuvants, and then GRAS ingredients, were both cr@p.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Herr Doktor
Where was I refuted? narad's word search? that was a farce and proved exactly what I said. And your statement that it wasn't a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

The fact is that the words describe serum sickness from attempted immunizations.

After a little digging, here’s what the IPEC has to say about it, the International Pharmaceutical Excipient Council. Hardly an antivax site.

I see that you remain too colossally stupid to notice that this still has nothing to do with labeling of biologics.

And your statement that it wasn’t a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

You could do that, if you really want to demonstrate ignorance and your refusal to look up the meanings of words.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Herr Doktor
Where was I refuted?
You appear to be responding to Julian Frost's comment #445.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

I paste nothing from smartvax. I've only posted scientific studies and pharmaceutical industry websites.

Herr Doktor you guys claim one thing like GRAS doesn't pertain to biologics, I refute it from industry publications and you call it BS.

You discuss like a child

IPEC has nothing to do with biologics?

Wow

I paste nothing from smartvax. I’ve only posted scientific studies and pharmaceutical industry websites.

Can I ask which scientific study was the source for your comment #39?

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Because (let me google that for you) it reads a lot like a post at SmartVax:

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink
Kreb, if you’re not surprised “that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines,” then I doubt you’d be surprised to learn flora is responsible for doubling antibodies in response to rubella vaccination in Somali immigrants.

No, I’m not. Having healthy gut flora is clearly a good thing, and results in better response to vaccines.

Keith nonetheless has failed to demonstrate anything even vaguely resembling evidence or so much as a mechanism for the rubella assertion (which also would have to explain African Americans in general).

And your statement that it wasn’t a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

Let me explain. Anti-diphtheria serum is horse-, mouse- or rabbit-derived immunoglobulin designed to bind to molecules of the diphtheria toxin and block them so that they will not kill you. It is not a "vaccine" because it does not provide you with your own antibodies to Corynebacterium diphtheriae, and it will not stop you from catching diphtheria again in the future. It is not "immunisation" because it does not provide you with your own antibodies. Any more than an injection of rattlesnake antivenom will protect you from future snake bites.

Let me google it for you.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

So Stu has been reduced to hiding behind semantics? I wonder if he seriously thinks that he's winning an argument as long as he doesn't admit defeat?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Engineered spider toxin could be the future of anti-venom vaccines
Date:May 9, 2013

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

Apparently the FDA tells the public one thing and the actual biologics industry something a little different, hard to believe I know.

No, the FDA tells everybody the same thing: The term "GRAS" is exclusively a matter of what is a "food additive", and even this has nothing to do with labeling. It is purely a question of what evidence is required for the allowable use of something in foodstuffs.

Foodstuffs and Biologics narad. IPEC makes it pretty clear that you were wrong about this.

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

Quite likely, but they are not coming here and getting their stupid over everything.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

What part of that smartvax allergy statement are you disagreeing with Herr Doktor?

What part of that smartvax allergy statement are you disagreeing with Herr Doktor?

The claim that this has anything to do with vaccination (i.e. "a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children").

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

"Science Daily" is a press release aggregator. It doesn't have any "semantics."

The actual paper is here, blockhead. Free clue: You still don't understand the original point.

Keith Bell: We can’t simply blame vaccines for vaccine injury.

Uh, that is exactly what you and all your friends do. And again the gut-brain link originated from Andrew Wakefield's ass. Why do you assume a discredited doctor turned murderer has anything valid to say ever?

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Foodstuffs and Biologics narad. IPEC makes it pretty clear that you were wrong about this.

How, jackass? Because they stuck the term "GRAS" in parentheses? It has a gold fυcking plated legal definition.

You are a riot narad. Even proof positive that you were wrong and you still cant admit it. You think Merck/GSK gives a darn what the FDA thinks about their ingredients. IPEC even admits there is no real approval process for excipients and that it is a case by case basis.

Does brewer's yeast count as a probiotic? I've got several cases of homebrew and want to think it's good for me.

Thanks.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Herr Doktor, you can take that up with Pirquet. Somehow I believe him over you.

(which also would have to explain African Americans in general).

Umm .... Because the're black??

Even proof positive that you were wrong and you still cant admit it.

Did you miss the part where you were asked where the fυck your "proof positive" said one fυcking thing about not labeling your imaginary GRAS adjuvants?

I have come to believe that the magical thinking and conspiracy theorizing to which antivaxers are prone, are due to imbalances in their gut flora. It only makes sense, due to the well-known microbiota-brain connection.

Why haven't we sponsored large-scale studies of the intestinal contents of antivaxers to discover this obvious link? Once the inevitable proof is obtained that the colons of Barbara Loe Fisher and her fellow AoAers are jammed full of Escherichia ridiculae and Proteus loonicus, we can devise a probiotic that will cure their delusions once and for all.

Feel free to nominate me for a future Nobel Prize in Medicine.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

So a paper discussing the development of a chimeric protein that might lead to a vaccine against spider venom demonstrates that an injection of immunoglobulins is immunization? I don't quite follow the logic.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Herr Doktor, you can take that up with Pirquet. Somehow I believe him over you.
When Pirquet's papers are so explicit that he was studying a reaction to repeated anti-toxin administration and not vaccines, it seems to be a case that you prefer to believe a garbled misunderstanding of Pirquet that you soaked up from Sanevax. But feel free to cite his actual words.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

@Dangerous Bacon--

We don't study antivaxers' intestinal contents because we're already well familiar with them, having been showered with them so routinely and copiously.

(which also would have to explain African Americans in general).

Umm …. Because the’re black??

Or presumably because their forebears are from Africa. I'd like to think that someone who is relatives are native to Australia would not be referred to as African-American regardless of his/her/its skin tone.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Naturally, I do not speak of the take of Goldie and the Four Bears; that is something else, altogether.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Does brewer’s yeast count as a probiotic?

Oh, man! I'd be really careful! Weren't we told recently that yeast DNA is remarkably similar to human DNA? Think of the horrors that could happen if you have a leaky gut and some fragments of yeast DNA contaminate your precious bodily fluids, moving thence to your nuclei where they insert themselves. You could wake up one morning with yeast buds where your toes used to be. Or worse!

citation needed, Dangerous Bacon #436. Or are you just gonna kickstart it then run off with the cash????? ;> ?

oops... #474 <--- this crap, they call a 'science blog'... well, at least one doesn't have to sign up... and that's a good thing.

You could wake up one morning with yeast buds where your toes used to be.

Some of my best buds are yeasts.

Or worse!

Well, that would be the unkindest cut of all.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

Foodstuffs and Biologics narad. IPEC makes it pretty clear that you were wrong about this.

Let's just break this out a little further. Since Stu is too freaking lazy to actually link to his sources, the matter to hand is this. There are two mentions of the term.

No. 1(a):

7. How are excipients "approved" for use in pharmaceutical products?
Under U.S. law, an excipient, unlike an active drug substance, has no regulatory status and may not be sold for use in food or approved drugs unless it can be qualified through one or more of the three U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval mechanisms that are available for components used in food and/or finished new drug dosage forms.
These mechanisms are:
1. determination by FDA that the substance is "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) pursuant to Title 21, U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 182, 184 or 186 (21 CFR 182, 184 & 186);
2. approval of a food additive petition as set forth in 21 CFR 171; or
3. the excipient is referenced in, and part of, an approved new drug application (NDA) for a particular function in that specific drug product.

All of these sections of the Code of Federal Regulations are under subsection B of chapter I, "Food for Human Consumption." That's a big, honking fail, Stu.

This continues with No. 1(b):

Excipients contained in over-the-counter (OTC) drug products subject to FDA monographs referenced in 21 CFR Parts 331-358 must comply with the requirements in 21 CFR 330.1(e) which reads as follows:

"The product contains only suitable inactive ingredients which are safe in the amounts administered and do not interfere with the effectiveness of the preparation or with suitable tests or assays to determine if the product meets its professed standards of identity, strength, quality, and purity. Color additives may be used only in accordance with section 721 of the Act and subchapter A of this chapter."

Parts 330–358, which are in subchapter D, do not classify excipients as "generally regarded as" any fυcking thing at all. The question is whether OTC preparations themselves are "generally regarded as safe and effective." This is not GRAS. Strike 2, Stu.

No. 2:

8. How are new excipients permitted for use in U.S. drug products? Would the procedure be similar in the case of a previously allowed (GRAS) excipient for a new pharmaceutical use?

As the foregoing parts of the Code of Federal Regulations make crystal fυcking clear, there is no such thing as a "GRAS excipient. You fail spectacularly on all counts, Stu.

....food for lust.... hmmm.... Hmmmm...

Wait. What were ya'll deflecting about again??

In fact, a search for "code of federal regulations" + "approval of a food additive petition" + "excipient" turns up almost nothing but that IPEC item and pages that quote it – in particular, what is certainly Stu's actual source.

Where do we actually get some help? Well, here (PDF), for one:

The Centers [CDER and CBER] recognize that existing human data for some excipients can substitute for certain nonclinical safety data, and an excipient with documented prior human exposure under circumstances relevant to the proposed use may not require evaluation in the full battery of toxicology studies outlined in this guidance. For example, the Centers will continue to consider factors such as use in previously approved products or GRAS status as a direct food additive. Under some circumstances (e.g., similar route of administration, level of exposure, patient population, and duration of exposure) experience associated with the prior use may adequately qualify an excipient. However, it may be necessary for the safety database associated with that excipient to be brought up to current standards (e.g., submission of additional genetic toxicology data). The available information that supported the prior use will be considered in light of any proposed new use by the appropriate review division. It is important to note that the inclusion of an excipient in a USP/NF monograph or other non-FDA document is not an indication that the substance has been reviewed by the FDA and found safe for use.

Once again, no "GRAS excipients." I'd liken it to the blind leading the blind, although the relationship between Fieck and Stu is more like the stupid leading deaf and stupid.

IPEC does, helpfully, note in their handbook Qualification of Excipients for Use in Pharmaceuticals (which nowhere mentions GRAS) that there is indeed an FDA Inactive Ingredients Database. There's more than one way to access the data, but for this purpose, the query form is adequate.

Peanut oil is listed for IM injection. Given that this immediately means that it must be listed (not that this was ever in doubt), it's possible to play "Where in the Word Is Arachis Hypogaea?"

Answer: Injectable progesterone.

Comment in moderation, but I'll go ahead and fix a typo: "Where in the Word World".

Or presumably because their forebears are from Africa. I’d like to think that someone who is relatives are native to Australia would not be referred to as African-American regardless of his/her/its skin tone.

I presume what you're replying to came from Tim/TIm. I used the term deliberately (the Chicago manual considers the hyphen some sort of blood libel, BTW). I follow the AP and use initial-cap 'Black' when that's what's actually meant. Here there was a difference in magnitude of the effect between Somali Americans and other American Blacks, but it seemed simpler to go for parallelism.

^^ in otherwords, he means "you people" y'all.. I *think*...

I presume what you’re replying to came from Tim/TIm.

True/true.

(the Chicago manual considers the hyphen some sort of blood libel, BTW).

Good to know, thanks.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

I’d liken it to the blind leading the blind, although the relationship between Fieck and Stu is more like the stupid leading deaf and stupid.

Shirley the relationship is more akin to a human centipede.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

It pleases me to anthropomorphise my gut bacteria. In my more unhinged moments I imagine them worshiping me as a god.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 16 Oct 2014 #permalink

No doubt, it’s because your sales would plummet???

No, because asking for evidence supporting your claim that vaccine formulations contain peanut oil adjuvants or excipients is neither an explicit or implicit acknowledgment that they would likely cause allergic and/or autoimmune rsponses in people receiving the vaccines.

I would have thought my post made that clear.

"You think Merck/GSK gives a darn what the FDA thinks about their ingredients."

Yes, I do. Why do you not?

Militant Agnostic,

It pleases me to anthropomorphise my gut bacteria. In my more unhinged moments I imagine them worshiping me as a god.

Do you imagine skeptic bacteria who claim you don't exist and point and laugh at the worshipers? (I can mostly cope with US English, but for some reason spelling "worshipers" with one p hurts)

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 17 Oct 2014 #permalink

“You think Merck/GSK gives a darn what the FDA thinks about their ingredients.”

So after all his campfire stories about ingredient labelling and imaginary exemptions to the regulations through which vaccine manufacturers might include $SCARY_STUFF without listing it, Stu's final position is that ingredient lists are irrelevant and imaginary exemptions are irrelevant because the companies will ignore the FDA and put in $SCARY_STUFF anyway??

That is just priceless. You have to admire such single-minded determination to ignore reality and consistency in the cause of maintaining an impurity phobia.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Oct 2014 #permalink

I would have thought my post made that clear.

Tim's "Sales would plummet" comment was a reference to the Crunchy Frog skit.
" I think it's be more appropriate if the box bore a great red label: 'WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT!!!' "

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 17 Oct 2014 #permalink

I recognized the reference, but ignored it in an attempt to keep the exchange on course.

Tim at # 491's video has got to be the vilest piece of racist crap I've ever seen posted on RI.

It's a new low...even for Tim.

I *think* the 'Lark's vomit' in foodstuffs is a real thing -- Chinese 'bird nest soup' and maybe even an English thing??

I've seen very few of those type mud nests here -- one solitary one would appear in a certain cavern entrance (a blasted tophole for mining salt peter, I *think*). Another several outside at the top of some aluminum columns on a front porch. Interestingly, both locations have concomitant bat colonies.