I've been writing a lot of posts on what I like to call the "antivaccine dogwhistle." In politics, a "dog whistle" refers to rhetoric that sounds to the average person to be reasonable and even admirable but, like the way that a dog whistle can't be heard by humans because the frequency of its tone is higher than the range that humans can hear, most people don't "hear" the real message. However, the intended audience does hear the real message. The way the "dog whistle" works in politics is through the use of coded language recognizable to the intended audience but to which most other people are fairly oblivious. In our not-too-distant past, for instance, "states' rights" was code for institutionalized segregation.
As I've described before, antivaccinationists have a number of coded dog whistles that they like to use. By far the favorite antivaccine dog whistle is the invocation of "parental rights" and "informed consent." The former was most blatantly exhibited recently by Rand Paul when he bluntly stated, "The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom." Of course, one wonders if this was a Freudian slip, because surely someone as politically savvy as Rand Paul must know that likening children to slaves who are "owned" is distasteful. But maybe not. As I've said many times before, antivaccinationism is all about the parents, not the children, and unfortunately in this country there is a pervasive assumption that children are property and that parental rights to choose trump a child's right to decent medical care. We've seen this time and time again in other contexts, such as faith healing, where the parents' freedom of religion trumps the child's right to be treated for diabetes or pneumonia or a parents' rights trump the right of a child with cancer to effective care.
Other examples of antivaccine dog whistles abound. For instance, there's "informed consent," which in the case of antivaccine activists really amounts to misinformed consent, where parents base their decision not to vaccinate on misinformation painting vaccines as dangerous and ineffective. That's why antivaccinationists hate bills that propose requiring parents to receive counseling from physician or other health care professional before an exemption to school vaccine mandates will be granted. Other dog whistles are a bit extreme, and, like a low quality dog whistle whose lower register can be heard by humans, let the crazy show even to those who are not antivaccine, such as the likening of any measure to tighten or eliminate nonmedical exemptions to the first step towards a new Holocaust or even to human trafficking. You'd have to be pretty oblivious not to recognize the crazy in these.
There's another dog whistle that I don't recall having discussed, but fortunately (or unfortunately, depending upon your view), ex-UPI journalist turned propagandist for the nattering know-nothings at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, Dan Olmsted, provided a perfect example the other day in a post entitled Control All Delete, Part 1: The Un-American Suppression of the Vaccine Safety Debate. (Oh, goody. There's going to be a part 2.) In it, Olmsted puts that dog whistle to his lips and blows and blows and blows:
Last month, the Toronto Star ran a perfectly reasonable article titled “A Wonder Drug’s Dark Side,” about adverse events following the HPV vaccine Gardasil. It wasn’t long before the paper and its editor, Michael Cooke, were set on by the raving pack of hyenas that attacks anyone who dares suggest that vaccines are not pure as the driven snow.
Of course, as we know, the reason that Toronto Star article was so vigorously criticized was because it was a flaming pile of nonsense. No wonder Robert "Dr. Bob" Sears liked it. It was so bad that ultimately the Star printed an article signed by scientists about the other side, disowned the article, it and, finally, decided to take it off of the newspaper's website. Basically, the reporters made an egregious rookie mistake when dealing with vaccine stories and treated reports in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database as though they were reliable. Oh, sure, they added some disclaimers that just because an adverse event is reported in VAERS and Canada's equivalent database, the Canada Vigilance Adverse Reaction Online Database doesn't necessarily mean that the vaccine caused it, but that disclaimer was weak tea compared to portraits of a mother whose daughter died, a death she blames on Gardasil.
It's a story I've discussed before in detail before, Annabelle Morin, and her death was almost certainly not due to Gardasil although antivaccinationists have been furiously spinning it as such for years. I mean, come on! The online version of the article included a video in which Morin's mother Linda is shown looking over her daughter's old bedroom and putting flowers on her grave! Don't get me wrong; I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Ms. Morin, but her grief has led her down the dark path of believing that Gardasil killed her daughter when it almost certainly did not and then becoming an antivaccine activist. Against Linda Morin and the other girls portrayed as having been injured by Gardasil, coupled with the usual blather by Dr. Diane Harper, and the disclaimers couldn't stand. That's even leaving out the extensive contacts between some of the parents and antivaccine, anti-Gardasil groups and use of naturopathic quackery to treat their daughters.
But, hey. To Olmsted the criticism leveled at the Star, its editor and reporters, and its publisher is akin to being set upon by a "raving pack of hyenas." (You know, that wouldn't be a bad name for a band.) Indeed, he seems to be wishing for the "good old days" when editors had a "bite me!" attitude. Actually, that's just what the Star's editor, Michael Cooke, exhibited at first, when he sent Julia Belluz of Vox.com an e-mail saying, "Stop gargling our bathwater and take the energy to run yourself your own, fresh tub" and told off another critic on Twitter thusly, "Stop being an idiot." Very classy. No wonder Olmsted liked it. Of course, cooler heads prevailed and the publisher ultimately decided to retract the story, enraging Olmsted:
Under a barrage of criticism, on February 20 the publisher – his boss -- announced that “the Gardasil story package of Feb. 5 will be removed from our website.”
In explaining the article’s removal, the publisher wrote: “The weight of the photographs, video, headlines and anecdotes led many readers to conclude the Star believed its investigation had uncovered a direct connection between a large variety of ailments and the vaccine.”
Well yeah, it kind of did lead readers to conclude that – and the conclusion was more than justified, as readers of our own coverage of the vaccine will know. But “we have concluded that in this case our story treatment led to confusion between anecdotes and evidence,” the publisher said, and so it was pulled.
So, the publisher did the right thing; we don't know whether Cooke was on board with it or not or whether he simply had to swallow and accept this rebuke from his publisher. Either way, it took the Star over two weeks last month of flailing to realize what a mess it had made, but at least in the end its publisher made the right choice.
Now here comes the dog whistle:
This is just the latest example of a disturbing and, frankly, un-American (in the case of the Toronto Star, un-North American) trend: self-censorship and craven caving to criticism. Salon pulling Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s piece on the CDC’s cover-up of thimerosal's damage in vaccines was among the first and foremost.
It’s not just pulling published journalism that is suppressing urgently needed debate. Google is reported to be talking about ranking its search results not just by relevance and popularity but by deciding which sites are most “accurate.” So if you humans don't cause global warming or do cause autism, you can expect to show up lower and later because, as we all know already and need not discuss any further, you are not accurate!
Yep. If you don't have the science, invoke "open debate" or, as I like to call it the "help, help, I'm being repressed!" gambit. It just goes to show that the media has gotten a lot better at avoiding false balance that gives too much credence to crank viewpoints with respect to vaccines. Beginning a decade ago, back when I was a new blogger struggling to find a voice, I frequently noted that I both dreaded and looked forward to April. Why? Because April is Autism Awareness Month. I dreaded it because, like clockwork I'd see the media do vaccine-autism stories and trot out antivaccine loons like J.B. Handley and, later, Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey to give the "other side," alongside actual physicians and scientists. Calling Dara O'Briain!
I can't help it. I love that video. I also like that we don't see such egregious false balance about vaccines in the media as much as we used to. The media seem to be learning, although the Disneyland measles outbreak has unfortunately somewhat resurrected false balance or even explicitly antivaccine stories.
I also love how Olmsted has zero self-awareness:
The New York Times and other publications explicitly forbid what they call false balance – giving any credence or even coverage to what they consider “anti-vaccine” cranks. If you think that vaccine reactions are more frequent and more serious than the drug companies and government say – the heart of our argument and, again, a perfectly reasonable policy debate -- and that those reactions include autism, you are a tinfoil-hat type.
Well, yes. Exactly. Dan Olmsted and the rest of the crew at AoA are tinfoil hat types, and the media have finally started to recognize it (or at least stopped being as willing to give equal time to tinfoil hat types as they used to be). AoA uses pseudoscience, misinformation, and conspiracy theories to try to argue that vaccines cause problems that they do not, problems such as autism, autoimmune diseases, sudden infant death syndrome, and the like. They claim that they are "not antivaccine" and are "pro-vaccine safety," but you will never, ever see any of them willing to provide an example of a vaccine they consider sufficiently safe and effective to use it on their children. (If any AoA blogger has given such an example, I've never seen it, and unfortunately I've been reading the damned blog since its inception.) These are the things that make them tinfoil hat types, not their mere questioning of vaccine safety. In other words, it's the process, the reasoning (or, more precisely, the lack thereof) and pseudoscience that got them to their conclusion that vaccines are dangerous that makes them cranks, not the conclusion.
In this, antivaccine activists are just like creationists. It's not "questioning Darwin" that makes creationists cranks. It's the misinformation and pseudoscience used to question evolution. It's the process. No wonder Olmsted really detests that comparison as well:
Creationism and vaccine-induced autism – what a moral equivalency! The real equivalency is between the Times warmongering coverage of Iraq’s supposed weapons of mass destruction, and its smug certainty that vaccines don’t cause autism – the most important international, and the most important domestic, issues of our time, both muffled and missed by the Times. Some institutions have no memory or ability to learn from their mistakes.
This is, of course, a non sequitur. Just because the New York Times got it wrong about weapons of mass destruction does not mean it didn't get it right about vaccines and autism, and it did. Its explicit policy of not giving false balance to antivaccine cranks is a wise policy. After all, when it's publishing a story about astronomy, does the NYT interview an astrologer alongside, say, Neil deGrasse Tyson for "balance"? Or when doing a story about earth science, does the NYT interview a flat earth believer, just for "balance"? Or, yes, when doing a story about evolution, does the NYT interview Ken Ham or another creationist for "balance"? No, at least not any more. The same is and should remain true about not interviewing antivaccine loons like Olmsted for "balance" in vaccine or autism stories.
Science, unlike politics, is not a system where, when you have two extreme viewpoints, the answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. That's what's known as the "fallacy of moderation" or the "fallacy of the golden mean." No, in science, there are right and wrong answers, and in the case of vaccines the right answers lie on the pro-vaccine side, not the antivaccine side. It is not "un-American" to say that and act accordingly, nor is it in any way muzzling free speech, given that the antivaccine movement has numerous outlets through which they can promote their message. Nor is Google stifling free speech by trying to tweak its algorithms to produce more accurate search results rather than the most popular; it's improving its product and responding to business imperatives. That such a change is likely to greatly diminish the rankings of many crank websites in Google searches is good thing, and certainly no website has a "right" to a high Google ranking based on popularity. It's Google's business, and it can change its algorithms as it sees fit.
In scientific and medical controversies, if you have the data and evidence, you use it. Since the antivaccine viewpoint is not a medical viewpoint and is not supported by science, that just leaves using dog whistles like appeals to freedom, warnings about creeping fascism, and complaints of being victims of "un-American" suppression of speech. It's all antivaccinationists have. Well, that and anecdotes and pseudoscience.
Oh, and calling vaccine scientists like Paul Offit names like Dr. Proffit. Stay classy, Dr. Bob.
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The status of this novelty remains obscure to me. Indeed, the amateurish page slapped together for this brand reveals that Phildo hasn't changed the signage.
I'm sticking with the more popular form for the time being.
Narad, you must be raw with chaffing. So if I cut and paste anyone does that mean I am them? Still not Mr Hillllls no matter how its spelt or writtennn. Not interested in homeoppathy or Acccumpunture and necver used it.
" Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. " Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad's bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
Narad, you must be raw with chaffing. So if I cut and paste anyone does that mean I am them? Still not Mr Hillllls no matter how its spelt or writtennn. Not interested in homeoppathy or Acccumpunture and necver used it.
” Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. ” Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad’s bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
Come on you chickens. Soon as its nailed you moderate. This is why the pro vaccine stance is so dodgy, you are afraid of the dam bursting. We can feel the fear. I don't swear or post double links, that's your prerogative. let's have a discussion on the connection between diseases, where's the science in you? It's all Pharma PR and you should be ashamed.
” Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. ” Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad’s bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
So now you will only post a shorty! Well I am still not Mr Hilll and never have been, I don't like accupuncture - its bull and so is homeopathy.
If by fear, you mean ennui, then, yeah.
We can feel the fear.
Ultravox!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DclSrYbSn-E
Considering Johnny posted the same comment 3 times, ennui is definitely the answer. He's boring. He runs away from the facts and prefers his own. And he's a pro at moving goal posts. Gotta give him that much.
See above, dumbfυck.
Orac writes, "
"They claim that they are “not antivaccine” and are “pro-vaccine safety,” but you will never, ever see any of them willing to provide an example of a vaccine they consider sufficiently safe and effective to use it on their children."
MjD says,
How can we consider vaccines sufficiently safe when the FDA advises not to be misled by "Latex-free" on medical packaging including vaccines?
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm342641.htm
Gardasil-9 states, "Vials and prefilled syringes components are latex free."
http://www.merck.ca/assets/en/pdf/products/GARDASIL_9-PM_E.pdf
In truth, it's all about provaccine safety so let's keep talking about it.
Johnny:
What part of it do you believe to be untrue, numbskull?
Almost none of the diseases I mentioned were water-borne. While sanitation systems reduced diseases like polio, typhus and cholera, they did nothing for the other diseases I mentioned.
Your "refutation" wasn't the slam dunk you thought it was.
Go away MjD. You add nothing to the conversations taking place on Respectful Insolence.
re # 453 ( paraphrase)
Experts caused war, instability and the banking crisis so why believe in medical science?
AS IF those scenarios were one and the same, involve the same people and all add up to MALFEASANCE!!!!
In General!!!!!
EVERYWHERE!
Don't trust experts!!
Right, this type of penetrating analysis is presented frequently at PRN... Beware the Cult of the Experts!
Was it really the *experts* who caused the war and the economic crisis or was it people with power and entrenched interests who lied and manipulated to benefit themselves?
I think that most experts were on the sidelines and generally warned the public about possible negative consequences associated with both war in the Middle East and the follies of the early-mid-2000s financial scene. I certainly heard them.
THUS the quoted message is a way to promote distrust of SBM and invite trust in anyone who is NOT associated with its fabled den of thieves.
It is simultaneously a method to distract the audience away from examining what possible motivations and conflicts of interests the Truth Teller (tm) might have.
They have many, primarily involving feeding their egos and wallets. Every earth-shattering news flash Mike Adams presents somehow inks up to a product or service he provides and from which he benefits.
Christie Dames is the person who has booked Mitkovitz and latterly, Kenndey, for the Commonwealth Club.
Christie Dames's letter in the local paper agitating against SB277, the one that would eliminate the personal belief exemption:
http://www.marinij.com/opinion/20150326/marin-ij-readers-forum-for-marc…
I have no idea what "test" Dames is nattering on about -- let alone the false notion that children are "harmed" by vaccination.
@Liz #515
I can't say what Ms. Dames is referring to, but perhaps tests for mitochondrial abnormalities? I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines. But I don't know that tests have yet been developed for it. Or maybe she's just talking about a complete DNA analysis for the child?
BTW, it's not a false notion that children are 'harmed' by vaccination. It's a fact that some are. Disagreements about about which reactions are reasonable to attribute to vaccination and what that rate truly is, but the idea that children can be harmed, even die, due to reactions to vaccinates is part of the informed consent that parents sign up to when they agree to get their child vaccinated.
Dr Beth says: "I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines."
But if Dr Beth took the trouble to get a better education, she might learn that there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to fever.
So is it smart to leave such children exposed to infectious disease?
Back to Dr Beth, of the University of Google.
@517
You seem to think you have contradicted what I just said.
You didn't. A common side-effect of vaccination is a high fever. Hence, since children with mitochondrial disease have a high rate of adverse reaction to fever, it would follow they would have a high rate of adverse reaction to vaccination.
This lesson in logic cheerfully provided by Dr. Beth (Ph.D. in mathematics)
"A common side-effect of vaccination is a high fever."
Depends on your definitions of "common" and "high fever".
Mild febrile reactions to vaccines are fairly common (i.e. 1 in 6 kids who get MMR). Truly high fever (105F or more) is reported to occur in 1 of 16,000 children who get the DtaP vaccine.
The rate of those reactions needs to be examined not only in light of fevers seen with vaccine-preventable diseases, but the frequency of mlld to high fevers run by kids getting colds, flu and other childhood infections.
I would like to see this "rather good evidence" that kids with mitochondrial disorders have a high rate of adverse effects from vaccines. The prevailing evidence suggests otherwise.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603512/
There are tests available that can show exactly if a child is predisposed to an autoimmune problem if given certain vaccines. For only $100 parents can test to show if a child will be negatively affected.
If people want medical certificates and have $100, I am confident that 'Doctors Data' or some other scammers will come along to meet the demand.
" That was because measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, smallpox, hepatitis, polio and chickenpox could (and all too often did) kill." Julian hysteria on diseases
Julian, the people that die from these diseases today live in shitty war-torn surroundings, with raw sewage, no hygiene to talk of and diet that is deficient in basic nutrition. That has a direct relationship with survival, not some mythical medical magik called vaccination. It is well known that the vaccinations you so love become less effective, the closer to the equator you get. I know clean water and somewhere to shit is difficult to float on the stock-market but maybe that shouldn't take priority here.
I gather that Narad has rubbed it all away with excitement over seeing the genetically related conditions of Psoriasis RA and Lupus, and that they, based on research, have a relationship. That means all those kids that you spread steroids on and give asthma who then go on to develop RA as an adult can thank you for suppressing that fever they had and gave them cookies and milk instead.. Ohh goody you can prescribe an immuno suppressant now like a TNFI so it's good for market progression too.
3 posts the same because this ancient site randomly decides on moderation, hold up and censorship, unlike the vaccine lapdogs who can post qwana endlessly.
Come on Narad and Julian, let's see some comment on the Purdue study that clearly dared to show that vaccinations precipitate immune system disasters - or is it too painful to comment.
Better sell those shares while you can...............
I love this debate. The denial on this blog is stunning. The corruption denial,profit motive denial, follow the money denial, easily manipulated epidemiologic study's denial, ignore vaccine history denial, ignore sanitation, personal hygiene, clean water denial, nutrition denial, weeping parents of vaccine children injured denial, medical monopoly based on chemicals denial. Aluminum deposits in the brain denial. No long term safety studies denial. The FDA and CDC serves pharma denial. Vaccines contain toxins denial, GMOs are dangerous denial. Sv-40 causes cancer denial, Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines and infected millions denial. Yeah man vaccines are safe alright and the stock market isn't rigged either and your medical doctor wasn't brainwashed by drug companies in med school and his continuing eduction is funded by drug companies. Have you thought about the depth of your denial here? Why do you think we have so much sickness and no cures? don't you folks get it something is very very wrong in the world of healthcare. And as soon as a doctor shines a light on the truth they are quickly called quacks and you eat it right up like sheep And ignore them. Prices are going through the roof yet we have never been more chronically I'll Go ahead keep trusting MD directed medicine to your demise.keep getting your annual flu shot with Mercury with a 23% effectiveness when all you need to do is take vit d3 and vit c. Where wellness comes from the end of needle containing monkey kidney cells. Aluminum, polysorbate 80, msg and formaldehyde. Smh wow you are really drinking the koolaid. @ Johnny your funny and that dog study was impressive.
Health is immunity
Dr Beth. I didn't think I contradicted what you said, at all. And that you thought I had only highlights your lack of education in biomedicine.
Bo Pal is a good example of multinational companies
"Bo Pal" is of course the corporation originally founded by Bo Peep, using the insurance money from her lost flock.
The denial on this blog is stunning
From some of the posters, yes.
From some of the posters, yes.
I don't know if it's "denial" when the commenter is not actually reading comments.
It is slightly sad and mostly funny to see Iliya THEO (rather self aggrandizing new 'nym, really) reduced to a pile of inanely gibbering goo who seems only capable of sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling, "NUH NUH NUH, NUTRITION! I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG, BRAINWASHING, BIG PHARMA! VIT D!"
The first bit actually read a little bit like some sort of unintentional beat poetry, in the manner of Allen Ginsburg, except really bad.
Allen Ginsberg, that is.
How does that work?
Was the spelling changed after the lustre came off of Beau Pal?
Isn't Nutrition! one of the songs from Fiddler on the Roof?
Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines
How does that work?
An unexpected reaction between the phlogiston and polywater excipients.
What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
I think that's from one of Clark Ashton Smith's horror stories.
@ JP:
That's hilarious!
I am currently conjuring up an image of someone who looks a bit like Ginsberg standing on a dimly lit stage reading from a list of woo-filled RI comments for several hours and calling it 'performance art'.
And believe me, I've seen performance art that approaches that level of inelegance.
I sincerely regret missing the surrealist performance art period of a good friend of mine - this was before we met, after he dropped out of college at the U of Nebraska, worked and saved up a bunch of money and lit out for the West Coast, and before he ended up on a psych ward following his one and only psychotic break and was more or less taken back to Nebraska by his parents.*
Ginsberg's Howl actually reminds me of my general crowd, actually, except that one of us somehow ended up in PhD school.
RE: bad comments turned into poetry/performance art: I am feeling somewhat inspired and something entertaining may come of it. Stay tuned.
*He once read me his file from the place where he'd been kept for a week, about 6 days longer than necessary, and the first sentence goes: "Subject is a complete failure in every arena of life: school, jobs, relationships." He ended up finishing a BA, is married, and has a job (sort of), so there, I guess.
What this 16-year-old study?
These are certainly not " immune system disasters", and I see no follow-up to show that any of these dogs actually developed autoimmune diseases.
A veterinary website states:
I'm all fingers and thumbs tonight - that should be veterinary website. Must get some sleep.
Can't find anything in Orac's archive about this.
Clustering of cases of insulin dependent diabetes (IDDM) occurring three years after hemophilus influenza B (HiB) immunization support causal relationship between immunization and IDDM.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12482192
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
JP at #486 read #538
Ah, it looks like ken is dragging in some crap "studies" done by John Classen of Classen Immunotherapies Inc. Gee, nice one.
So I was going over THEO's wall-of-text stupidity, and I decided that it can't really be made any dumber or more entertaining than it already is, but some line breaks and extra punctuation add to the sort of terrible-beat-poet vibe I got from it. For maximum enjoyment, imagine it being read by Fred Milton, beat poodle.
The corruption denial!
profit motive denial!
follow the money denial!
easily manipulated epidemiologic studies denial!
ignore vaccine history denial!
ignore sanitation, personal hygiene, clean water denial!
nutrition denial!
weeping parents of vaccine children injured denial!
medical monopoly based on chemicals denial!
Aluminum deposits in the brain denial!
No long term safety studies denial!
The FDA and CDC serves pharma denial!
Vaccines contain toxins denial!
GMOs are dangerous denial!
Sv-40 causes cancer denial!
Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines and infected millions denial!
Yeah, man. Health is immunity.
#540 And exactly what are your qualifications determining this is crap?
Ken, as a research scientist developing immunologic therapies for Type 1 Diabetes I can categorically state that the hypothesis you are pushing here is utter cr@p. A, T1D (nobody calls it IDDM unless they've been hiding under a rock for 20 years) is mainly genetic. B, it maps to preexisting susceptibility loci (HLA, stat5a, ptpn22) rather than your b.s. vaccine theory. C, There is no epitome overlap between the HiB antigen and any of the antigens involved in T1D. D, the HiB vaccine is a subunit vaccine with alum and stimulates B cells and CD4 T cells while T1D is caused by CD8 T cells. Epic fail. Complete and udder lack of any understanding of the systems. Morons.
*epitope
#543 I am not pushing anything. Please tell that to PubMed. I'm sure they would appreciate being called morons.
Um, a brain? Some research and reading comprehension skill? Having the sense to check who the author of a paper is and whether or not they're a credible scientist or have any integrity at all, and say, any COIs like peddling some sort of bizarre idiocy?
^Should be skills, plural, I suppose.
#543 also known as JP utter not udder
@ken:
If you are thinking, ken, that J.W.Chaplin and myself are the same person, you are sorely mistaken, but at least you have amused me briefly.
In light of the your-experts-led-us-to-war-in-the-middle-east-and-f%cked-the-banking-system stuff, I'm guessing that particular show is not a fan favorite.
Although it's sometimes difficult to say whether people who swallow and regurgitate that kind of crap really know what they're saying. They could just be fools for propaganda..
I suppose that should be "the provenance of what they're saying."
To be fair.
Ken, PubMed indexes cr@p all the time. What do you think 99% of the articles in Medical Hypotheses are?
And yes, it should have been utter. Autocorrect on my phone is erratic and more than doubles the time required to respond to your brainless regurgitation of baseless cr@p.
#552 Good Luck with your research. I'll overlook your insults as goes along with the territory of hard, painstaking work with slow results and little recognition. Watch out for the burn-out syndrome.
PS My children were vaccinated, born in 68 and 70 doing fine
with less vaccines, grandchildren also.
Again, so what? I imagine your kids probably had the chickenpox, as I did, having just missed the vaccine as a kid. I don't really see how a week or two of extra misery is something to bandy about as, like, some part of the "good old days" or something.
In any case, sweetheart, if we're feeling free to be pedantic here, it should be "fewer vaccines," not "less vaccines," and also, your sentence is so poorly worded and thoughtless as to be basically meaningless.
Oh, in terms of chickenpox, I should have said "an extra week or two of misery along with extra risk of serious/permanent injury or death." I mean, do you like watching kids suffer or something?
Ken, that's "fewer vaccines".
Thanks for your good wishes. I work for the health and well-being of both well-meaning idiots and normal people. Just don't spread baseless fear, uncertainty, and doubt to make my job harder and we'll be all good.
less |les|
adjective & pronoun
a smaller amount of; not as much :
@558:
Now look up "mass noun" and "count noun".
Just reduce the adverse effects of vaccines as stated on the package inserts and everone will be much happier. Hopefully, there will be less collateral damage in the "war" against VPDs.
The "adverse effects" on the package insert are mostly CYA legalese bullshıt.
Now that dying in a car crash is down as a death
"due to" Gardasil, the lawyers will probably add that to the package insert. It's all cr@p.
All these one-in-a-million "effects" are mostly just coincidence. Even if you lived 100 years, 52 minutes and 36 seconds are a millionth of your life. Anything that happened that soon after vaccination or any other event could be attributed to causation, when it's nothing but coincidence.
"Million-in-one" is just a euphemism for a probability that's too small to measure and consistent with zero.
Johnny @521:
Riley Hughes, a one month old baby, died of pertussis in Australia. I have Facebook friends from there, and I don't think Australia is currently anything like the "Mad Max" films. Ditto Germany, where that UNVACCINATED child died of Measles.
You. Got. Nothin'.
and vaccine safety-
www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/Recalls/ucm053289…
Yeah, it's a good thing that vaccine safety is being monitored and that very rare batches that can't be assured to be safe are recalled, isn't it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
Ah, one of the Bentham stable of bottom-feeding mockademic pay-to-print pukefunnels!
The main part of Classen's research into safer vaccines seems to consist of staking out new territory for patent trolling.
http://www.vaccines.net/patentin.htm
The study does start by saying that antibodies against the dogs own collagen and that is an autoimmune disaster marker.
" but the study was terminated when the dogs were 22 weeks of age, well before autoimmune diseases usually become clinically apparent."
How useful, once the study started to show that the dogs immune systems were melting, the study was stopped. That is a beautiful example of cherry picking Krebby, stop rubbing it or it will fall off.
".............Yeah, it’s a good thing that vaccine safety is being monitored............." JP
Are you having a laugh or just being facetious?
"Riley Hughes, a one month old baby, died of pertussis in Australia. I have Facebook friends from there, and I don’t think Australia is currently anything like the “Mad Max” films. Ditto Germany, where that UNVACCINATED child died of Measles.
You. Got. Nothin’." Appeal to emotion king
A death is crap - but using that to sell a vaccine is worse. This child was 4 weeks old, to young to vaccinate even by your rules. Also there is one death per year from this so no change in the average mortality. The German measles death was within a 95% herd immunity cohort so the idea that reaching herd immunity was going to help is a bullshit emotion appeal to sell more redundant vaccine on the back of a child death - again. You got loads there buddy
No, it's even better. I feel compelled to note first, however, that while Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, has been drunkenly yowling – perhaps inspired by the tone of his wife's saying somthing about the possible superiority of a dog in bed – about "reading of the Purdue study,"* etc., the footnoted** links in his own "source" are as dead as fυcking doornails.
One may fairly confidently assume that Phildo himself has not made a "reading of the Purdue study."
Courtesy of the Wayback Machine, BEHOLD! "Effects of Vaccination on the Endocrine and Immune Systems of Dogs, Phase II." The relevantly dated version of fn. 1 (which may well not be that originally linked) refers to the "Results from the Great Dane Health and Vaccine Study," which seems to have been a purpose-funded follow-on to the work with the earlier "top breeder" concern, beagles.
This manages to persist in all its 88-page PDF glory here.
"The dogs vaccinated at least once in their lifetime did not differ significantly from those that were never vaccinated with respect to their gender, body condition (Table 7), age, weight, and height (Table 8, Figure 4). However, the unvaccinated dogs were significantly less likely to have been neutered."
ZOMG.
It'd be exactly the same shіt as the Pasteur Institute, "Cochraine," etc., routine, if not for the fact that on this occasion, Phildo deployed the hydrocephalic censorship routine to assert that finally, this time, for once,
Sic.
* At least once plural, but whatever, he was probably seeing double.
** Notes 1 and 2.
^ Almost forgot.
Wrong, slapdіck.
"The 30-kDa fragments contains the heparin-binding domain of fibronectin, whereas the 45-kDa fragment contains the collagen-binding domain. As shown in Fig. 2, little reactivity was observed with the 45-kDa fragment, but significant reactivity was observed with the 30-kDa fragment....
"The anti-fibronectin antibodies in four human SLE patients were directed against the collagen-binding domain (Atta et al., 1994), in contrast to the anti-fibronectin antibodies in the vaccinated dogs, which showed no affinity for this domain."
Bah borked quotes again.
@ Narad
Whoever Johnny really is, could we leave Hills' wife and dog and any deviant innuendo out of the debate?
Both his wife and dog already have a lot to endure. No need to drag them in.
Aside from this, please keep demolishing the troll's lies. I brought popcorn. With plenty of sugar.
@ J.W.Chaplin
Some days, I cannot help thinking that, if the scientists who worked hard to create vaccines like DTP or MMR would have known about the likes of Hills or Theo, they would have become plumbers instead.
Actually, I'm not sure I would class the antivax leaders as "well-meaning idiots".
The misled parents and the occasional newbie, I would just call them "well-meaning but wrong".
But the likes of Hills, Wakefield and other who are knowingly spouting lies? No. There is nothing well-meaning about them. It's malice, the desire to do evil, pure and simple.
How useful, once the study started to show that the dogs immune systems were melting, the study was stopped. That is a beautiful example of cherry picking Krebby
Whether it is genuine stupidity or a confusion made for comic effect, Johnny was the one who linked to the Purdue study, and is now pointing out its inadequacy and blaming Krebiozen for introducing it. I laughed, anyway.
Six kids from a family of eight diagnosed with autism or language problems! Yep, that certainly rules out the possibility of a genetic cause.
Johnny,
As Narad has pointed out, it specifically says that the dogs did not develop collagen autoantibodies. You seem to be under the illusion that the mere presence of autoantibodies sgnifies autoimmune disease, but it looks increasingly likely that autoantibodies are part of a normal healthy immune system.
Given the prevalence of automminune diseases in beagles, it is unlikely that any would have shown up in the five vaccinated dogs in this study however long it continued. As the authors point out:
I struggle to see how the study could have continued after the dogs were, "killed by intravenous injection of barbiturates, and a complete necropsy performed".
Advice from experience, I assume. The study you claimed was evidence that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases found no evidence of autoimmune disease in the vaccinated dogs; that's not cherry-picking, that's pointing out that you either misunderstood the study, or more likely never read it.
I bet Narad is raw now.
Imagine my shock & surprise to find commentor "Sarah007" banging on about the Purdue dog auto-immunity research over at SBS a few years ago.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/joe-mercola-quackery-pays/comment-…
"Sarah007" shows exactly the same incomprehension of the actual Purdue research, not having read it and preferring to rely on the same predigested source.
"Cochraine" and "The other 98% of our reaction to any ‘disease process’ is non specific" make appearances later in that same SBS thread. It is almost as if Sarah007 and Johnny Labile are the same person.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies/
Not sure what you guys looked up and rewrote, it is so tiresome having to point out your straw fallacies, appeals to emotion and plain dishonesty. No wonder the ordinary guy is seeing doctors and medics as snake oil salesmen.
Keep it up, it is hysterical. By the way I don't own a dog anymore and I am not Mr Hills. Not too good at research really are you.
So last years total failure of whooping cough vaccine which is the Pertussis medical magik totally failed to work in the US despite the highest uptake of whooping cough vaccine snake oil ever according to the CDC.
Take some context for the Australian boy. Stats show us that one death a year from Pertussis is the norm there so the vaccine programme has had no impact on mortality at all. Why are they claiming this death is an increase of something? Oh to sell more vaccine obviously.
What you don't include is all the kids who die from SIDS as a result of having the vaccine and all the women who get put in prison for shaking their babies to death. Then look at all the appeals for the women let out and what do you find - Pertussis vaccine encephalitis.
Every time we widen the lens the straw fallacy of vaccination melts like chocolate in a furnace.
Johnny, I looked at the article you linked to. It appears in a magazine about raising dogs "naturally". In other words, the same crunchy granola, free-range, woo embracing type as the antivaxx parents, but involving pets, not children.
None of the cites is less than a decade old. Also, I skimmed the article. It's the same cherry picked nonsense that you see in antivaxx articles everywhere.
You got nothin'.
Johnny:
The only reason the death rate is that low is because of vaccinations, Granite Brain.
The death rate would be far higher if it weren't for people getting vaccinated.
And just when I think Johnny couldn't go any lower, he brings out an excavator. Vaccines do not cause SIDS, Johnny. In fact, vaccines have a slight protective effect against SIDS.
Taking down #568:
And if the community had reached herd immunity levels, little Riley would never have been affected, peabrain.
Deceiver, deceiver. Pantaloons aflame. Your proboscis is the length of a telephonic line. Ryf in #79:
You're delusional. There's no other word for the way you consistently ignore inconvenient facts that refute your insane beliefs.
Johnny,
You linked to a rabidly anti-vaccine website that has grossly misinterpeted the Purdue studies. You really think that trumps the actual studies themselves? Who is being dishonest here? That page includes such howlers as:
As previously pointed out, they did not develop collagen autoantibodies.
The dogs that were euthanized were found good homes? Presumably they means the follow-up study that found no evidence of autoimmune disease in vaccinated dogs, even after three years.
Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, decides yet again to try to change the subject after his actual "sources" are examined:
OK, pigfυcker, let's have "all the appeals for the" overturned cases.
Phildo has yet to clarify this language production:
Oh hey, "Johnny" apparently supports the notion that vaccines are the real cause of shaken baby syndrome. I suggest he FOADIAF.
Which turned out not to exist:
Like Roald Dahl's seven year old daughter Olivia? Really? You'd think that would have made the news at the time..
JGC: He already covered the Dahls on another thread. Apparently Dahl was showered with gratitude from the candy companies after writing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, so Olivia's immunity was compromised by sugar and Roald got punished for his sins against nutrition. I thought I'd spare us all from another post from Johnny. Good god ,the man is living proof that the anti-vax movement is chock-ful of sociopaths.
Adverse events following pertussis and rubella vaccines. Summary of a report of the Institute of Medicine.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1727962
@Ken - and when was the last time we used the DTP vaccine in the United Sates?
Seriously, if you don't provide any a little context, we're just going to continue to assume you are an odious anti-vax troll.
Well the insert for Flulaval in the Uk clearly states words to the effect "there are no robust trials that demonstrate you will not get influenza disease if you use this product"
Well at least they are honest. Oh and on the 800 kids in the UK now with narcolepsy after a swine flu vaccine here is the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21197394
I can just picture Narad going into a rubbing frenzy to cope with this, someone give him something please.....
Adverse events associated with childhood vaccines other than pertussis and rubella. Summary of a report from the Institute of Medicine.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8182813
"In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination." Puddy tat
That is because the fake placebos used in vaccine trials are usually the same vaccine minus the antigens. When both groups get brains swelling it can be conveniently ruled out. There is no point quoting industry funded research foxy, it's only go to give the same answer each time - bullshit
Ask the women who all got released for shaken baby syndrome how their appeals were all constructed and how they were all similar, foxy.
I dare you
@Johnny - why don't you provide us with the links to those Court cases?
And while you are at it, how about a link to the information that you keep posting that the child who died in Germany was vaccinated against the Measles?
(despite being shown, multiple on multiple times, that you are full of crap)
#594 FYI A great reason it is no longer used-
"The DTP vaccine has resulted in the filing of 3,286 injury petitions and 696 deaths since 1986. Changes in this vaccine have reduced the number of side effects, resulting in safer vaccines. A more purified acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine has been licensed for use, replacing the whole cell pertussis vaccine used in DTP."
www.tctimes.com/news/the-other-side-of-the-vaccine-controversy/article_…
So, ken, you're basically providing proof that there is a long-term safety reporting mechanism in place for vaccines and that manufacturers do take them off the market.
Absolutely ken - though further research shows that the DTP was not nearly as problematic as was originally thought.
So thank you for saying that the system works.
Also, ken, the Ford Pinto was also taken off the market due to safety concerns. Does that say cars in general are too dangerous for the general consumer?
Out of how many millions of vaccines delivered? These numbers are meaningless without context, ken.
Note also that the vast majority (i.e., >90%) of the awards granted by the NVICP to date are for table injuiries, in which no finding that the vaccine actually caused the claimed injuries is required of the claimant or is found by the court.
I posted a comment on ken's link, questioning the reporter's information about hundreds of deaths reported from the whole cell pertussis vaccine. My comment was published and then removed, but the Dachel bot's two spamming comments remain.
Ken, the operative word there is "filed". Not conceded, not paid out. FILED.
There are still risks for some children and it should be up to the
parent to decide (based on factors, genetic and other wise) in consultation with their pediatrician as to the best course of vaccination for their child. It should not be mandated by the Gov't.
Johnny, there is no evidence whatsoever which demonstrates vaccines can cause the symptoms diagnostic of shaken baby syndrome.
And as the foster (and soon to be adoptive) parent of a three year old recvoering from SBS among other injuires I condemn your attempt to climb to victory in this debate over the bodies of abused children.
Die in an effing fire, you cretinous mouthbreathing misanthrope.
Re: the FLuLaval insert, it doesn't say what you think it says (i.e., it isn't an admission that FluLaval is not effective at reducing risk of flu infection)
https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/580677032002310#!/RtAVM/photos/a.4…
#610 You are dumber than I thought.
I don't think you're anywhere near smart enough to make an accurate assessment of my intelligence, cupcake. Go back and read it again. Move your lips if you need to.
Hint: the use of seatbelts also carries inherent risks. Sometimes people die because they were wearing a seatbelt.
Merck is rather casual about making this statement.....
Merck Manual Home Edition-
Encephalitis is inflammation of the brain that occurs when a virus directly infects the brain or when a virus, vaccine, or something else triggers inflammation. The spinal cord may also be involved, resulting in a disorder called encephalomyelitis.
www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain_spinal_cord_and_nerve_disorders/brain_i…
continued......Autoimmune encephalitis:
After certain viral infections or vaccines, the body's immune system sometimes attacks the layers of tissue that wrap around nerve fibers (called the myelin sheath) in the brain and spinal cord The attack occurs because proteins in myelin resemble those in the virus. As a result, nerve transmission becomes very slow. The resulting disorder, called acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, resembles multiple sclerosis except that symptoms do not come and go as they do in multiple sclerosis. The viruses most often involved include enteroviruses, Epstein-Barr virus, hepatitis A or B virus, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), and influenza viruses.
So, ken, I wonder if you can go "do some research" and tell us about the mathematical relationship between the number of cases of encephalitis caused by vaccines vs. the number caused by VPD?
@ken - once again, what is your point?
ken, what is the encephalitis incidence rate associated with 1) vaccines and 2) the infectious diseases they protect against? Are they anywhere near equivalent, such that the risk of encephalitis assoicated with being vaccinated equals or exceeds the risk of encephalitis associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against?
Consider encephalitis associated with measles vaccination versus measles infection: the incidence of encephalitis associated with the MMR vaccine is 1 case in every 1 million vaccines given, while the incidence associated with measles itself is 1 case in every 1000 measles infections.
That's a difference of three orders of magnitude.
Clearly if you're concerned about developing encephalitis you'll want be sure you and your loved ones are vaccinated against measles according to the recommended schedule, reducing that likelihood 1000-fold..
Johnny,
Perhaps you should get your eyesight checked.
No, this was a study looking at cases of encephalopathy to see if they were more likely to have received MMR or DTP in the 90 days preceding their illness, no placebos involved.
It wasn't industry funded, it was funded by the American Association of Health Plans, an association of health insurers who are highly motivated to get accurate information about the health of their customers.
Ah, more desperate subject-changing. This one's ancient, Phildo, so you scurry right along and find a copy of the current package information. Because the U.S. version of this fares very, very poorly.
"Pandemrix was most widely used in the UK during the 2009-10 flu pandemic and given to almost a million British children between six months and five years old.... The HPA abstract paper .... from Developmental Medicine in Childhood Neurology.... estimates the risk was one in 52,000 in those vaccinated."
I can see why the books of the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex are so underwhelming. That's a fail for the ages, Phildo.
#615 #616
That's for Merck to do since they are raking in millions
but I guess they can't be bothered to be more explicit.
Like they really care ie.- It's just collateral damage.
#617 I doubt if anyone really knows the real figures. That's the reported figures.
Ah-ha - so you're not just a moron, kenny boy, you're a conspiracy theorist too? Who's suppressing the "real figures"? The Big-Pharma-Gubmint cabal in cahoots with the lizard people and the Illuminati and the Freemasons?
WHO DID 9/11, KEN??!!!11!eleventy!
@ken - so you admit you are an odious troll then, huh?
You provide no context, present nothing we haven't seen (and debunked a thousand times)....just go away.
That RTAVM entry is overly simplistic. I don't have the time to go over the U.S. regulatory history at the moment, which explains the scope of the expedited approval (age range, IIRC), but suffice it to say that the insert no longer says that in any event.
Of course, the real meat here is Phildo's production of the UK version. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure that that FluLaval TIV (the quadrivalent is entirely separate) is even licensed in the UK.
But I'm sure that Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, will clear this all up in no time.
Oh, come on. What source other than report could their possibly be for any of the data under discussion?
You might as well just say "La, la, la, fingers in my ears, I can't hear you."
Kenny, explain what motivation an insurance company has to falsify figures on a practice that damages their revenue stream.
You guys can get stuck in the minutia I prefer the big topics and ideas here.
WTF?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102473744
"Therefore, it is prudent to minimize the risk of human exposure to infection by evaluating XMRV contamination in cell lines handled in laboratory research and particularly those used in the manufacture of biological products."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21996050
So we know that SV-40 and XMRV are linked to contaminated vaccines and both of those retro viruses are found in cancer patients? yeah vaccines are safe alright..thats downright terrifying.
It just never ends. Its the gift that keeps on giving the more you dig into vaccines and look at the opposing argument. All the facts and all the players and the history. Its full of cover ups, misinformation, coercion crony capitalism and fear mongering. As stated before this topic stinks to high heaven. where there is smoke there is fire. There are PLUMES of smoke surrounding Vaccines. The easiest take down ever.
If the American people knew the truth about all the issues me Johnny and Ken are finding it would reduce vaccinating immediately. So is it any wonder why the media is so 1 sided? No its not and YES Orac the mystery writer. Its un-american suppression. As Johnny says the dam is breaking as we speak. Pharma is freaking out thats why they are trying to force all of the laws against vaccine exemptions. They are losing control of the information.
Ken,
Actually, those folks at the Merck manual were more explicit, and if you knew how to search properly, you would have found it. (or maybe you did, but refused to see it?)
See: http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/neurologic_disorders/brain_inf…
The primary causes are from various viral infections, generally mosquito-related. I quote one paragraph for your edification:
"Immunologic reaction: Encephalitis can occur as a secondary immunologic complication of certain viral infections or vaccinations. Inflammatory demyelination of the brain and spinal cord can occur 1 to 3 wk later (as acute disseminated encephalomyelitis); the immune system attacks one or more CNS antigens that resemble proteins of the infectious agent. The most common causes used to be measles, rubella, chickenpox, and mumps (all now uncommon because childhood vaccination is widespread); smallpox vaccine; and live-virus vaccines (eg, the older rabies vaccines prepared from sheep or goat brain). In the US, most cases now result from influenza A or B virus, enteroviruses, Epstein-Barr virus, hepatitis A or B virus, or HIV. Encephalopathies caused by autoantibodies to neuronal membrane proteins (eg, N-methyl-d-aspartate receptors) may mimic viral encephalitis."
I note that neither smallpox nor those old rabies vaccines are used these days. So, get yourself vaccinated, don't go camping and avoid any creatures that are foaming at the mouth. This includes other anti-vaxxers.
I see theo has failed our wee intelligence test.
Beth@516
" I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines. But I don’t know that tests have yet been developed for it."
What antivaxers do not realize,is that it isn't just vaccines that cause problems.Children with mitochondrial disease have adverse reactions to ANY fever,be it wild or vaccine induced.Autistic regression is only one consequence of fever in mitochondrial disease.Unexplained vision or hearing loss,heart problems,liver problems,almost anything can be effected.
I have lifelong vision loss and heart problems from childhood infections.And then there is the fact that for those of us with both autism,and mitochondrial disease,like myself,regression is not a one time thing,but life is an endless cycle of regression,some improvement of autism,and brain function,and then another acute infection and regression.This is a lifelong cycle,unless underlying mitochondrial and metabolic disorders are corrected.Any doctor that treats patients with mitochondrial autism will tell you this.I had the two worst regressions,following the one I had as a baby,as an adult.
Many people with mito also have secondary immune deficiencies,like I do,making things even more complicated.A lot of children and adults with mitochondrial disease need to rely on herd immunity.
To continue on what Beth said,diagnosing mito is not a easy thing,especially since new mutations and new types of mito are being found all the time.In all likelihood,I may have such a type of mitochondrial disease.There are newer tests,like the buccal study that can test mitochondrial complex levels in saliva,but these tests are too expensive be put in general use for screening,and are only done on patients with suspected mitochondrial disease.It was one of the tests that helped me get a diagnosis.
JGC@609
That is one of the best pages on all of Facebook.I hope everybody here has signed up for it.
Isn't funny the antivaxers don't talk about mito much any more,and cerebral folate deficiency,something else I have,was barely a blip on the radar,before the likes of AoA promptly forgot about it.
Vioxx killing 160,000 worldwide before withdrawn
Another of Philip Hills' diagnostic dumbprints, ungrounded in reality, birthed full-grown from his forehead in the manner of grey-eyed Athene.
I'm beginning to wonder if (like O'Blivion in Videodrome) Hills actually died some time ago and has been replaced by a collection of recorded rants, endlessly recycling in different combinations.
Theo @626 (gosh this comment thread has gotten long):
XMRV? Really? You're trying to dig that one up? Well, since you don't seem to believe anything any of us have to say, why don't you go look at all the posts ERV wrote about XMRV? The link to her blog is right there at the top of the page, with the drop-down. You'll have to search (since everyone is over XMRV), but there's plenty of stuff there.
Theo,
I find it mind-boggling that any sane intelligent person can look at the evidence and come to this conclusion. Every single one of the anti-vaccine canards are easily refutable, and in the end it all depends on a fervent belief that vaccines are bad and ignoring all the copious evidence to the contrary. The only cover-ups and misinformation I come across are from the anti-vaccine side. Just look at this comment thread and the many pieces of nonsense that you and ken have posted here that have been refuted with good evidence.
Just one example, from your last link:
This is a flat lie. According to the CDC:
The B3 genotype is a wild measles virus, not a vaccine type:
Unless you are going to accuse the CDC, all the people involved in genotyping these cases, the authors of every immunology text book and every immunology professor in the entire world of being involved in a conspiracy, what Sally Fallon Morell is clearly not true.
Even though I have told you this I am quite sure you will be posting the same nonsense again in a week or in a month (I'll remind you of this when you do). It doesn't matter how many times you show an antivaxxer they are mistaken, or have been lied to, they reappear spouting the same nonsense a bit later. I have seen it time and time again. Why do you spread misinformation like this? Do you have no interest in the truth at all?
You guys can get stuck in the minutia I prefer the big topics and ideas here.
Theo's triumphant big-picture victory lap is somehow familiar:
JGC: Apparently, I misspoke. Ken and Keith Bell are not the same person, though really, there's not much difference between them. Is there a factory cloning these guys somewhere?
It’s impressive that the Guardian is above your level of reading comprehension.
Our chav friend seems to prefer the Daily Mail.
Theo:
There's a saying I long ago learnt was very true: "The Devil's in the details." That you like the "big idea" is no surprise.
" Is there a factory cloning these guys somewhere?" swine
Yes it's called "camp Orac" a kind of Gulag of year zero thinkers who will do anything to defend the vaxxy. Rows of computer nerds eager to please and quote the red book that has been specially written. Meanwhile anyone who dares question the falling pants on the Madonna has all sorts of knob rubbing expletives directed in the hope that the mist will cover the truth. They always ignore facts:
A team at Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine conducted several studies (1,2) to determine if vaccines can cause changes in the immune system of dogs that might lead to life-threatening immune-mediated diseases. They obviously conducted this research because concern already existed. It was sponsored by the Haywood Foundation which itself was looking for evidence that such changes in the human immune system might also be vaccine induced. It found the evidence.
The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.
This means that the vaccinated dogs — ”but not the non-vaccinated dogs”– were attacking their own fibronectin, which is involved in tissue repair, cell multiplication and growth, and differentiation between tissues and organs in a living organism.
The vaccinated Purdue dogs also developed autoantibodies to laminin, which is involved in many cellular activities including the adhesion, spreading, differentiation, proliferation and movement of cells. Vaccines thus appear to be capable of removing the natural intelligence of cells.
I can hear Narad reaching for the tissues on this one.......
What a shame, back in moderation again boys, come on be brave have a look a this and comment please. Narad and Julian have been telling porky pies on this:
The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.
I can hear Narad reaching for the tissues on this...........
I don't believe you have the skills to foster a sense of humor let alone a human being....Geeez
What lies did I tell, pinhead?
Johnny's argument (I think) is that if the Purdue veterinary researchers (writing in easily-accessed papers) report finding no collagen antibodies, while some mendacious asswipe purports to predigest the papers (in Alt-Vet journals, and then echoed at AoA and further afield) while claiming that "collagen antibodies were found", then it is YOU who are the lying cherry-picker, for linking to the original report rather than to the AoA redaction, even though the latter version describes the results which should have been obtained.
It is an odd approach to reality but what can I say? Johnny really enjoys being spanked for stupidity; the commenters here enjoy spanking him. It is a dysfunctional and co-dependent relationship but at least both sides are happy.
Actually Theo has dredged up XMRV several times for this thread. It is passing strange. XMRV was a laboratory accidental creation caused by passage of xenotransplants and accidentally contaminated some research kits. The evidence that it is infectious was made up whole cloth, including doctoring the labels on Western blots. The fact that Theo's arguments hang on fraud every bit as egregious as Piltdown Man is significant.
As for Phil Hill of the Hope Back-cracking Clinic, I have given up. Phil Hill is not afraid of letting anyone know how batsh!t insane he is - even down to his poorly disguised pseudonyms.
Oh, no, another AMAZING COINCIDENCE!!1!
"Last year Mary Creagh MP called for compulsory MMR, I wrote to her and asked her to qualify her statement and her reply, and I quote was 'Doctors tell us there is an anecdotal increase in measles in London'."
Years later, the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex
"In the last measles scare Mary Creagh MP called for child benefit to be linked to non vaccine uptake so I wrote to her and asked her to qualify her reasoning, Her reply was stunning, consider she was calling for effectively a change in the law with this initiative. So this statement was the only justification for her passionate campaign:
"'Doctors tell us there is an anecdotal increase in measles in London' Mary Creagh MP"
Clearly, I misunderstood this, which I thought merely to be a confident declaration of indifference to the matter:
Little did I realize that the true import was that the real Philip Hills is himself merely cutting and pasting from "Johnny" and his Volkswagen full of pseudonyms.
How could I possibly have come to think even less of the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex?
# 629 Roger Kulp
That individual cases of "vaccine damage" are a response to fever is the elephant in the room that anti-vaxxers can't acknowledge. I think their lawyers have looked at that many times and run the proverbial mile.
Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the Daily Fail article that THEO linked to. I then found something interesting.
Tasha David is not a reliable commentator.
Johnny,
No one rewrote anything. As the good Herr Doktor pointed out, Narad and I linked to the Purdue studies themselves here and here. None of the dogs in the studies developed autoimmune diseases, even after a three year follow-up (in the second study).
You quoted an idiotic antivaccine article by a woman who also wrote an article titled, 'Why I don’t Vaccinate My Dogs At All' - she gives them "homoeopathic nosode, a safer vaccine alternative" instead. Not surprisingly, given her belief in magic pixie dust, she misinterpreted the studies (that's a charitable view). Repeatedly reposting the same misinformation doesn't make it true, however tiresome you may find it.
More specifically, here are some of the article's claims:
That isn't true. All the dogs, even the unvaccinated ones, had antibodies to bovine fibronectin, murine laminin and calf DNA, though these were a little higher in the vaccinated dogs. As we have discussed, there were no antibodies to collagen found in the first study (the antibodies found "showed no affinity for this domain") and collagen antibodies were not even measured in the second study. Neither study even mentions antibodies to albumin or cytochrome C, which the author appears to have simply made up.
Not their own DNA, calf DNA, and anti-DNA antibodies in the unvaccinated dogs were almost as high as in the vaccinated dogs, presumably from eating beef products.
The rest of the article is a smorgasbord of antivaccine canards and unfounded speculations.
I am only interested in the truth.
Let me try to find a middle ground here. The truth is most likely found in 0 -10 doses (1983) vaccine schedule being safe for MOST babies. But the incremental increase to 49 doses 2015 schedule and its synergistic effects all combined together to cluster bomb a child's immune system has never been tested or fully investigated for its LONG TERM effects on health. Thats a pesky fucking fact that you cannot ignore or prove other wise. Its an experiment with A LOT of unknowns. Merck and the rest of the industry have ZERO interest in doing these studies. Its the HOLY GRAIL of modern medicine for the love of God! Doctors are not allowed to speak negatively or else you are tarred and feathered as a quack. GET IT
The truth is that the IOM Committee in 2011 came to this startling conclusion, which they admitted openly and that is:
"For the vast majority, (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship."Therefore its possible vaccines are linked to ALL autoimmune diseases and lay the groundwork for the growing epidemic of chronic childhood ilness. Johnny has cited studies and I will link another article from an incredible website backed by scientific studies that Johnny and Ken should add to there repertoire of reading.
"Throughout our lifetime the normal immune system walks a fine line between preserving normal immune reactions and developing autoimmune diseases," says the paper. "The healthy immune system is tolerant to self-antigens. When self-tolerance is disturbed, dysregulation of the immune system follows, resulting in emergence of an autoimmune disease. Vaccination is one of the conditions that may disturb this homeostasis in susceptible individuals, resulting in autoimmune phenomena and ASIA."
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/attacking-ourselves-top-doctors-reveal…
There are links embedded in the article to studies
With regards to XMRV and SV-40 ummm.... thats new material for me and most Americans are oblivious to this vaccine history. this just what we know. What about what we don't know and they are covering up?
They are finding xmrv in prostate cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome patients and wow even autism patients. WTF is going on here?
The article from cnbc was more about the effects of Viral shedding and how the immunocompromised should be avoided.
I wasn't claiming it was only the vaccinated causing the outbreak but its interesting that it can happen isn't it
You see its all about trust isn't it? Trust is fading the damn in Europe is breaking too for good reason.
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/health-consumers/distrust-vaccinations…
#187 "The speculation that adjuvants are involved in feline sarcoma is dated to 2004 in that Whackyweedia entry. I am intrigued. Are there any updates on that line of research?"
This is the recent thinking summary from veterinary partner:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=526
Also this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299519/
There is also a paper by Srivastav et al from 2012 that compares injection site sarcomas from different injections - adjuvanted vs non-adjuvanted vaccines and other injections. From it - any injection can cause sarcoma in cats, but there appears to be stronger association with adjuvanted vaccines (presumably from local inflammation but nobody knows for sure).
At any rate, I am all with you about human vaccines - they are safe and effective, but cats are a special case, especially indoor-only cats.
Disclaimer: I am just a concerned cat owner not a vet. Also, I don't know how this is relevant to humans since a) we are not cats and don't have the same reaction to inflammation b) our vaccines have far better safety profile c) we are not re-vaccinated every year or even every three years except for flu because the virus mutates and tetanus which is a taxoid, which makes all concerned cat owners wonder what exactly is the science for such frequent boosters in cats d) my indoor-only cats have very little chance for catching these diseases - really what is the chance my strictly indoor cats would catch distemper (especially given that they had their kitten series and yearly boosters)? e) no human vaccine would have ever been approved with the same risk profile as in cats, especially if we had indoor-only humans, much less for yearly or every 3 year boosters (in spite of the ample evidence for longer duration of immunity). Just imagine: "It has about 1/10,000 or maybe 1/1000 chance of giving your baby a fatal cancer, but don't worry, we are going to do injection in the leg, this way if the cancer develops, we can cut off the leg". Do you see this type of conversation in a doctor's office?
Not much truth here Theo just a load of broken doktor types who once thought they had joined an honorable profession. It is why the suicide rate is high. Must be hard coming to terms with how unpopular the sacred cow of vaccination is when one was brainwashed by a fairy story about cows and milkmaids.
Mind you they do like the Disney link too, I suppose if thats how you learn to gather evidence - anything is possible, even vaccine efficacy in the face of overwhelming real evidence of the total opposite.
Tissues all round
Disclaimer: I am just a concerned cat owner not a vet. Also, I don’t know how this is relevant to humans since a) we are not cats and don’t have the same reaction to inflammation b,.....
Well all human vaccines parts are tested on animals at some point, it's still the same woo. All the animal owners I know stopped vaccinating a long time ago and all we see is a healthier cohort, meanwhile the autoimmune disaster is becoming commonplace now. After the US vet lot noticed an increase in cancer in dogs and cats at the yearly vaccination site, found aluminum in the tumors too, they recommended continuing to vaccinate but in the tail or the leg so they could then amputate when the animal eventually got cancer!!!!! What a good idea, much better than dumping the vaccine. It's that holy cow again. avey.
Krebby and co. Why do you keep lying about the Perdue study on vaccine disasters? Is it that distressing? Come on just take it on the chin and move on,
Exactly what evidence demonstrates this a is most likely to represent the truth? Be specific
Exactly what evidence demonstrates the vaccines on the recommended 2015 schedule combine synergistically to 'cluster bomb a child’s immune system'? For that matter, what does the phrase 'cluster bomb the immune system' even mean? Be specific
This isn't true, however: long term effects have been and continue to be investigated. For example, Hviid, Madsen, DeStefano, and others have publishedthe results of very large scale epidemiologic studies looking at long term outcomes following vaccination, and ongoing post marketing surveillance is continuously looking at outcomes as we speak.
And, in the face of yet another wholesale embarrassment, all that's left is unadorned sniveling from ol' Philip Hills.
THEO @648:
No he hasn't. He has posted to an article that distorted, twisted and misquoted the Purdue Study to argue that vaccination is harmful to dogs. Krebiozen and HDB posted links to the actual study showing that the article johnny linked to lied.
Secondly, you cited Green Med Info. All I can say is "you lose". The citation you give shows an interesting interpretation of (read, flat out lies about) what the IOM said.
"Incredible" is indeed the word.
Oh the irony. We have shown you (with links) that the majority of the people who caught the disease were unvaccinated, that the child who died of Meases in Germany was unvaccinated and had no underlying health conditions, and that your link to the "Purdue Study" in fact linked to an article from a crunchy dog owner who distorted what the Purdue Study said to advance her antivaccine agenda.
You are the one who is ignoring reality.
Theo,
If that is true, I suggest you stop believing the misinformation spread by anti-vaccine websites like GreenMedInfo which starts its article with the word, "No one would accuse Yehuda Shoenfeld of being a quack". As regulars here Shoenfeld is a well-known antivaccine loon who vetted 'The Greater Good', is buddies with the chemical-castrating Geiers and has invented ASIA apparently out of whole cloth. As for Sayer Ji, he has a casual relationship with the truth himself. By all means read them but please fact-check before dumping them here.
With flat-Earthers we would have to agree that the Earth is lens-shaped. Sometimes there is no middle ground, sometimes there are evidence-based working models on the one hand and paranoid conspiracy-based lies and misinformation on the other.
Why do you believe this?
How can a schedule introduced recently have been tested for long-term safety? Post-marketing surveillance follows large numbers of people and closely watches the incidence of a large number of diseases to see if there are any adverse events that were too rare to be picked up during clinical trials. The alternative is to wait for years, with children dying and suffering crippling damage from diseases like meningitis in the meantime.
In the IoM's 2013 publication they concluded:
In other words existing surveillance is sufficient and there isn't even anything to suggest further research is required in these areas. Or is the IoM unreliable when it contradicts your prejudices?
We know that autoimmune diseases are rooted in genetics and are definitely triggered by infections, and perhaps by some vaccines, but only very rarely, if at all:
I asked you before, but you didn't reply; what "growing epidemic of chronic childhood illness" are you referring to?
As for XMRV, one of the main researchers on this virus stated that:
SV40? It hasn't been found in vaccines since the 1970s. Given the large studies that found no link with cancer, it is almost certainly not a cause of human cancer, and the studies that found SV40 in human tumors were very probably due to cross-reactivity with the closely related JC and BK viruses.
Johnny,
Anyone reading this can look at the studies themselves to see who is lying.
@Johnny After the US vet lot noticed an increase in cancer in dogs and cats at the yearly vaccination site, found aluminum in the tumors too,...
1. The Feline Injection Site Sarcoma is specific to cats not dogs. 2. ANY injection can cause sarcoma in cats, even if there *might* be more sarcoma after adjuvanted vaccines, any injection - vaccines, steroids, antibiotics, or any foreign object e.g. sutures or microchips can also cause sarcoma in cats. Here is a case of a sarcoma in cats at a microchip site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21535253
Presumably wounds as well.
Sure, everything is tested on animal first, but some animals have unique characteristics e.g. tylenol is toxic to cats in any amounts. Cats are also very sensitive to inflammation.
Kitty @649:
This is the recent thinking summary from veterinary partner:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=526
Also this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299519/
Many thanks.
some animals have unique characteristics
Cats, for instance, are actually large vet bills wearing fur coats.
I know it is just anecdotical, but my parents and I have had cats for most of our lives and they where always vaccinated and I think we lost only 2 cats on cancer. The last one, was my cat, which had a large tumor in her intestines, so pretty far from the vaccinationsite.
The article from cnbc was more about the effects of Viral shedding
Theo somehow missed the big letters at the top of the CNBC webpage saying "PRESS RELEASE". He is linking to an advertisement from professional antivax lobbyists and calling it an "article". Great.
I am only interested in the truth.
Let me try to find a middle ground here.
If someone offers a middle ground between accuracy and bullsh1t, you have to question the sincerity of their putative committment to truth. "It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend one's time in looking for the sacred Emperor in the low-class tea-shops."
Would you care to document this?
"Might"? Do you think there's a reason that signal was noticed in the first place?
Chocolate is poisonous to dogs.
Animals are not small furry humans, and those who test medical treatments in animals are well aware of that. Quacks and cranks are not.
With regards to XMRV and SV-40 ummm…. thats new material for me
Such is the risk of acquiring all one's information from ME/CFS crank sites. But no matter, this is a learning opportunity!
They are finding xmrv in prostate cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome patients and wow even autism patients.
Alas, learning opportunities are wasted on people who prefer the comforts of ignorance.
You keep failing to notice that you pulled this out of your ass.
As they say ...follow the money.....
Should Canada and the United States Universally Vaccinate Infants against Hepatitis B?
A Cost - Effectiveness Analysis
"This paper examines the economic attractiveness of universal vaccination of infants with hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccine by calculating the incremental cost-effectiveness of this strategy when compared with the currently recommended strategy of screening all pregnant women and vaccinating only infants born to HBsAg+ mothers.
Lower vaccine prices would substantially improve the attractiveness of such a program. Implementation of universal vaccination should be considered in North America, contingent on vaccine price reduction.
www.mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract
mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract
I don't suppose you're capable of explaining how this 23-year-old cost-effectiveness item embodies that slogan.
Then again, neither did augustine (etc.). I presume this is still hanging around in some zeroth-tier antivaccine collection.
As they say …follow the money red laser dot
FTFY.
You are a complete idiot ken.
"It is concluded that universal vaccination against HBV in infancy is economically attractive, comparable in cost-effectiveness to existing health care interventions."
That is society benefits economically from universal vaccination against HBV.
I am happy to follow that money.
ChrisP Wrong. Society does not benefit.
Completely unnecessary. You are brainwashed and lack critical thinking skills.
Hepatitis B Vaccine – Is it Safe for Your Newborn?
www.kellybroganmd.com/article/hepatitis-b-vaccine-for-your-newborn/
ken:
Society does not benefit from immunising people against a disease that can cause liver cancer and cirrhosis? Society does not benefit from reducing the need for liver transplants? Society does not benefit from not having the reduced productivity that comes with people getting these diseases and having to take time off to get them treated?
Ken, YOU are brainwashed and lack critical thinking skills.
ken, you linked to the abstract of that paper as evidence of support. I can't help it if you lack the thinking skills to see that it offers no support for your claim, but in fact supports the opposite claim.
That is your fault, not mine.
You are making assumptions about the efficacy of the vaccine that has not been proven. Please supply citations to all of the above claims.
From #674
“The results of this large prospective longitudinal study show that 42% of babies born of HBsAg-positive mothers develop occult HBV infection, which is not prevented by administration of recombinant HBV vaccine to the new- born.”
First off, ken, those babies were all born to mothers who tested positive for HBV, so already it's a special case.
That Kelly Brogan, who is a holistic doctor, writes:
is deceptive and deceitful, as she isn't considering babies born to mothers who aren't HBV positive.
The abstract itself says:
Secondly, Hepatitis B can survive outside the body for up to a week. It's very easy to get infected.
Howsabout you get back to explaining the "cognitive process" that led you to pull out an ancient cost-effectiveness paper and prepend the words "follow the money"?
Not easy to get infected- similar to HIV transmission
Hepatitis B is spread when blood, semen, or other body fluid infected with the Hepatitis B virus enters the body of a person who is not infected. People can become infected with the virus during activities such as:
•Birth (spread from an infected mother to her baby during birth)
•Sex with an infected partner
•Sharing needles, syringes, or other drug-injection equipment
•Sharing items such as razors or toothbrushes with an infected person
•Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person
•Exposure to blood from needlesticks or other sharp instruments
www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/B/bFAQ.htm#bFAQ10
ken, you missed two important words: such as. That means that these are not the only ways to transmit hepatitis
And your point 5 is "Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person". A lot of people are Hep B positive and don't know it.
I repeat, It’s very easy to get infected.
@ken - perhaps you can chew on this for a while before you attempt to comment again:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1734688&resultClick=3
Infant fulminant hepatitis mortality rates and sex-adjusted rate ratios declined significantly for infants born from 1977-1980 to 2009-2011 (Table). The decline was greatest from 1981-1984 to 1985-1988 and from 1989-1992 to 1993-1996, coincident with the launch of the national immunization program in 1984 and the change to recombinant vaccines in 1992. Compared with 1977-1980, the sex-adjusted rate ratio declined to 0.88 (95% CI, 0.65-1.21) in 1981-1984, 0.46 (95% CI, 0.31-0.69) in 1985-1988, and 0.03 (95% CI, 0.01-0.24) in 2009-2011.
ken,
That's why they are also given hepatitis B immune globulin within 12 hours of birth, which increases efficacy to 98%.
When I first started working in clinical biochemistry labs there was no vaccine available, so we all lived in fear of hepatitis B , or Australian antigen hepatitis as we called it back then. I got a needle-stick injury from a syringe-full of blood that some bright spark had left the needle on, but thankfully the patient it came from turned out to be hepatitis B negative, after several days of anxiety. You can't imagine how enthusiastic we were about getting vaccinated when it did become available, even though the vaccine was made from the blood of hepatitis B sufferers.
I'm amused by the irrational fear some people display about this vaccine , despite its remarkable safety profile. Vaccine manufacturers develop a vaccine that isn't made using animal or human cells or any pathogens, yet the antivaxxers are still afraid of it. Some people will never accept any vaccine, no matter how safe it is. Ironically it is fear of a vaccine that will likely prevent eradication of this virus, which has no non-human reservoir, meaning it is antivaxxers who will be responsible for the continued need to vaccinate people, just as it is in the case of measles.
@ ken
Dude, the viral charge needed for an infection is about a thousandth times lower for hepatitis viruses than for HIV.
In other words, if you get contaminated by a bit of HIV, you have some chance of clearing the viruses without lasting harm. If you get contaminated by a similar amount of Hep C or Hep B viruses, your chances of clearing the viruses before they establish a hold are going to be quite lower.
ken, thanks for proving that you have zero reading comprehension skills in terms of science, considering the things you cite directly contradict what you think.
#682 My issue is with 1 day old babies who are not born to HBV positive mothers.
( “Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person”. A lot of people are Hep B positive and don’t know it.)
Excuse me but my grandchildren are highly unlikely to contract it from members of my family who do not go around with open sores.
I would get a Hep B shot if I were working in a health care setting or concerned about exposure. I haven't had any blood contact or shook hands with anyone with open sores.
It doesn't even have to be an open sore, Ken.
A hangnail, or a fresh manicure is enough to have a small bleed, which can transfer the virus.
You don't know the Hep B status of everyone in your family, or that of the people you meet.
ken,
But they might very possibly contract it from the tears, saliva, sweat, and urine of children with hepatitis B contain high levels of the virus, and whose parents don't know they are infected:
Then your grandchildren could join the ranks of people who are discriminated against because they were unlucky enough to contract a viral infection and are surrounded by ignorant bigots who think it can only be transmitted through casual sex or drug abuse.
Ken, you are quite simply wrong to believe that your children are unlikely to contract hepatitis from family members as long as they don't go around with open sores.
Before the hepatitis B vaccine was introduced, about 18,000 children were infected with hepatitis B virus in the U.S. by the time they were 10 years old, only 50% caught the virus from their mother during birth. The remainder caught it from another family member, caregiver or someone else they came in contact with as a child. As many as one billion infectious virus particles may be present in a single mL of blood from an infected individual making very easliy transmissable by casual contact, including by means of something as inocuous as sharing a washcloth.
#690 Frankly I'm more concerned about the norovirus.
www.cdc.gov/norovirus/trends-outbreaks.html
What does norovirus, which is spread by the fecal-oral route and ingesting of infected food and water, have to do with hepatitis B which is transmitted through contact with infected blood, semen, tears and other body fluids, ken?
You're off-topic...again.
wwwn.cdc.gov/foodborneoutbreaks/Default.aspx
Foodborne Outbreak Online Database (FOOD)
Ken really doesn't have much of a clue, does he?
#692 It's much more prevaent in the US.
Ken -- does this mean that you can only worry about one thing at a time?
What is it with people who are apparently only capable of being concerned about one thing at a time? I'm bemused.
shay beat me to the same thought.
Can't resist---
www.littlelady.org
ken,
Every time you're proven to be an idiot about something, instead of attempt to defend your position you just move on to some other completely unrelated piece of b.s.
Even by anti-vax wingnut standards you're pretty much useless and I'd suggest starving the troll might be in order here.
Can't resist-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugWmE5Nkj3g
#701 I'm female and look a little like littlelady lol
ken- the noun- as in beyond my ken.
Then the video is even more appropriate......
Norovirus is more prevalent, but it's not causing liver failure and liver cancer.
Hep B does.
FTFY.
* Not a very bright or honest one, either, judging by this Mercola entry.
#705 I was prescribed Paxil (for recurring bouts of depression) to which I had an awful reaction. I liked the psychiatrist and filled the prescription. Awful -I felt wooden, spacy, a little spastic. Had to stop. Tried cognitive therapy which worked. I won't at all berate the psychiatrist because they don't have time to do all the research. Maybe it worked for some though it's gained a bad reputation the past 7 years.
Kelly Brogan (of the Personalised Lifestyle Medicine Institute) received her ration of respectful insolence a year ago:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/04/02/i-do-not-think-that-study-…
She claims to have received the "Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology", which seems to have no existence outside of her self-promotional efforts.
Psychiatric Oncology-
www.massgeneral.org/cancer/services/treatmentprograms.aspx?id=1430
Lewis Rudin City Scholarships
Rudin Scholars are outstanding entering freshmen selected from public and parochial high schools in all five boroughs of New York City. In addition to their scholarship, the scholars participate in academic and cultural activities in New York City. The program is named in honor of the late real estate developer Lewis Rudin, former president of the Association for a Better New York and NYU alumnus and trustee. There is no application to be considered for this scholarship. Applicants are automatically considered through their admission application materials.
#Delete 709
I am aware that "psychiatric oncology" is a thing. I am aware of the Louis and Rachel Rudin Scholarship Fund for Cornell students.
The “Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology” continues to elude me.
Could not resist.
http://www.donotlink.com/ee2t
The old "DNA fragments cause autism." bit.
According to this Blog anyone I mean anyone who questions vaccines is not credible and cannot be trusted. So let me get this straight only modern medicine can be trusted as the authority on vaccines? CDC FDA IOM DHHS AMA. Anyone outside this monopoly is a quack or a crank. Thats absurd! YOU LOSE for believing that.
Here is a small list of quacks or crackpot websites that are not acceptable to the minions on this site or the Monopoly
Dr tennpenny, Dr Humphries, Dr Mark Hyman, green med info, Kelly Brogan, Dr Mercola, Dr Jack wolfson, ALL chiropractors and naturopaths, Barbara Loe fisher, Parents who watched their child regress immediately after vaccinating, Robert Kennedy jr, researchers like Shoenfeld, Shaw. Dr Seneff all the documentaries like Bought, greater good, Trace amounts. They are all liars and frauds and cannot be trusted Seriously? Its because they don't follow the myth anymore and have jumped the sinking TITANIC that is modern medicine! with its chemical approach to health that does not work!. you bafoons are sticking around to your doom.
So we have authority saying its safe cited by Kreb but we have independent researchers saying it is not safe.
hmm lets clear this up once and for all right?
IOM 2013
The committee does not endorse conducting a new randomized controlled clinical trial that would compare the health out- comes of unvaccinated children with their fully immunized peers. Although this is the strongest study design type then fucking do it! , ethical concerns prohibit this study, as unvaccinated individuals and communities intentionally would be left vulnerable to morbidity and mortality.
So, it's prospectively unethical. OK, then what about a study of people who are already unvaccinated -- you know, the Amish, homeschoolers, the HomeFirst practice in Chicago? Chiropractors, Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies (not my term!) in Ashland.
"Conducting human vax/unvax studies in existing unvaccinated groups would be so fraught with metholodical problems that they are 'retrospectively impossible.' As for controlled studies, they would be so burdened with permission probelems that they would be 'prospectively unethical.' In short, the resistance to the proposal to do vax/unvax work has not only taken the attitude of 'we already know the answers,' but 'we should not seek to know.' It's pretty hard to make scientific progress in the face of this kind of epistemological nihilism."
See here is the problem if >95% of the population is being pushed to vaccinate especially starting at birth. We will never know exactly what is causing all the diseases in this country.
The idea that the total health outcomes of vaccinated versus unvaccinated groups simply cannot be determined. It's like some mad extrapolation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to the macro-atomic level. You just can't measure it!
WOW how convenient that is for the monopoly. Thats just great. I would want to keep it that way too if I were them.
Of course, progress is not what these folks are interested in. They are heavily invested in the status quo, in which autism is a mystery, whether it is increasing is a real fun debate to have, and more and more and more and more genes are kinda implicated in one way or the other. Meanwhile, the IOM suggests looking at the CDC's very-own Vaccine Safety Database if anyone has any more annoying questions -- an idea already knocked down by a Congressionally mandated, NIH-appointed panel.
So this is what the last gasps of a dying beast sound like, gagging on the Epistemological Obscenity.~AOA
If vaccines are in fact dangerous to long term health and it takes 5-10 years to manifest there is no way of knowing. <---**FACT** Thats why researchers are walking up saying. WAIT!! what if in fact it is the vaccines? hmm lets take a look.
They keep telling us its safe and effective but our children have never been sicker. A doctor can’t investigate vaccines for fear of being called a quack we have a serious problem with the truth and its no longer science Its DOGMA. That is powerful fact!
This shows the influence of this global monopoly. That is why vaccines are viciously protected. if they lose this argument (which they slowly are) the entire Myth of modern medicine is in jeopardy. It calls into question their approach to using Drug therapies, chemo and radiation. The establishment will NEVER EVER Admit vaccines are dangerous and are linked to Autism and Autoimmune diseases. EVER. Oh and please stop calling it a conspiracy theory its a monopoly with a power & profit motive.
Now if you can’t seem to understand that, then you need a lesson in the history of modern medicine. Have any of you actually looked up how we arrived where we are today? Why is it Naturopaths are called quacks? short video 6 mins explaining. the history on how chemicals became the only approved medicine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EhbRmLNg8E
@Theo
You may not be familiar with the terms "morbidity" and "mortality", so I'll explain them for you. Morbidity means "getting sick", and mortality means "dying". Are you really OK with killing and making people sick for science? Why should the rest of society be ok with that?
I'm confused. Various researchers all over the world have done that very kind of experiment, and you've dismissed them all in this very thread as being "easily manipulated", perhaps because you didn't like their results. I personally don't consider experiments that involve literally millions of people to be that easy to manipulate.
If you honestly think that's an accurate assessment of that paragraph on methodological challenges, I sincerely recommend you take a university class on research methods, or at least watch a good YouTube video on the subject.
I also have to wonder if you have a little of the "attitude of ‘we already know the answers,’ [and] ‘we should not seek to know", given that you seem to have completely forgotten that there are multiple studies from all kinds of different institutions all over the world that are the very study design you just advocated for, and have dismissed their results summarily as being "easily manipulated." It's almost like you're not willing to really let the facts influence your conclusions.
Some us actually like the fact that the real world is complicated with lots of things influencing it. I can understand why it's more comforting to imagine that whenever something happens, it's constantly because of the same one thing, but the real world doesn't work that way. Even eye color doesn't work that way, and eye pigments are a whole lot simpler than human brains.
You mean the one they already looked at and found no evidence at all to support your pet theory? The one that has been used to discover risks that happen at much lower rates than autism? Why do you think going over all that again would be a good use of money and time?
Except for, you know, epidemiological studies, which aren't hard given that enormous amounts of people have been taking vaccines for more than five or ten years. You might want to look into the fact that there are a large number of such studies done all over the world, many of them by organizations like health insurance companies which would not benefit from manipulating them to hide risks.
Seriously? That doesn't jive with my personal experience or with anything actual measurements I've seen. Back in the bad old days, we used to hide sick children. Where are they hiding now?
It's kind of hard to justify that statement given that there have been vaccines that were pulled off the market. Were the researchers who discovered the problems with those vaccines mistreated in any way? Be specific.
It's probably a safer thing to say that a doctor can't cast aspersions on vaccines in contempt of massive evidence to the contrary without being called a quack. There's probably a reason for that.
And yet strangely, the FDA requires risk information to be included with every package, and it's considered unethical for doctors not to give risk information to each patient. It's hard to reconcile that.
They also don't admit that vaccines are linked to giving people superpowers.
You seem to have missed the part where there isn't convincing evidence that autoimmune diseases are more common because of vaccination. They'd probably be more willing to admit it if it were true.
You seem to have not noticed that most countries have multiple vaccines from different countries licensed, and different countries license different vaccines. That doesn't sound like a monopoly. Indeed, if you, Theo, developed a working vaccine, it is pretty likely it would get licensed and used. I suggest you give it a try, but watch out -- getting a vaccine all the way through the testing process is notoriously hard.
You might not have noticed this, but the "different drummers" you like to quote and promote have power and profit motives as well.
They are all liars and frauds and cannot be trusted Seriously?
No, no, some of them are just demonstrably incompetent.
In related news, the Wayback Machine's achive of A Photon in the Darkness seems to have been b0rk3d, although the new domain owner doesn't actually seem to have a robots.txt file.
I meant theo, these guys posting here on Orac craft are supposed to represent some kind of elite!!!!!!
Poland rejected the myth of swine flu pandemic and the CDC labelled them as 'undesirable'. Who the Fxxx are the CDC to say that just because Poland didn't buy their jollop. All those financial experts who totally fxxxxx the world economy and the military experts who have destabilized the middle East. I think we are all sick of medical experts telling us we are all going to die. Where is the positive here?
They moderate anything that doesn't suck up to the Pharm
I am still not Mr Hiill and never was!
The people you offer as authorities on vaccine safety and efficacy--Tenpenny, Humphries, Mercola, Wolfson, Barbara Loe fisher, etc.--don't lack credibility because they ask questions: they lack crediblity because they not only make demonstrably false statements but continue to makethe same false statements long after being shown repeatedly evidence demonstrating their claims to be false.
Which isn't sufficient to demonstrate that the vaccines they received caused their children to regress.
First, note that the idea that the Amish do not vaccinate is a myth (see http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/06/23/peds.200…)
Second, the retrospective studies you're calling for have been done, at very large scales, by multiple independent researchers and public and private health agencies in multiple nations--none of which have found evidence of a causal association between vaccination and autism spectrum disorders.
that doesn't it isn't possible to rule out potential causes, and at this point--after more than a decade of investigation including multiple very large retrospective epidemiologic studies, it's safe to say taht whenever we do identify the proximate causes of autism, routine childhood vaccination will not be on the list.
Sure there is: post marketing surveillance and the retropsective studies you suggested previously, both of which are ongoing.
Citations needed, desparately.
In the absence of any evidence demonstrating the existance of such causal links, there's nothing to admit.
So---got any?
Perhaps because it embraces modalities either not known to be effective or known to actually be ineffective (for example, homeopathy, which is such an integral element of naturopathic medicine that classes in homeopathy are part of every naturopathy curriculum and questions ascertaining a prospective ND's knowledge of homeopathy are included in the NPLEX licensing exam).
Why is it Naturopaths are called quacks?
It must be the "walking like a duck and sounding like a duck" part.
OK, then what about a study of people who are already unvaccinated — you know, the Amish, homeschoolers, the HomeFirst practice in Chicago? Chiropractors, Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies (not my term!) in Ashland.
This passage displays a relative felicity of spelling and grammar, and sure enough the words are not Theo's but are an unacknowledged cut-and-paste from an Olmstead screed of several years ago, extensively -- one might even say exhaustively -- rebutted in the past.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/01/17/quoth-iom-vaccine-schedule…
Some people are not just to be mistrusted because "they are all liars and frauds"; they cannot be trusted because they are lazy, skeevy time-wasting plagiarists who knew nothing and cared nothing about an issue until they went dumpster-diving in old AoA archives, and don't understand the issue well enough to come up with their own expression of concern, and haven't looked into the issue for the 30 seconds required to see how thoroughly it has been refuted.
If they also happen to peddle MLM nutrients / supplements, that's another reason for distrust.
Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies
Theo, since you repeated Olmsted's words, and presumably you stand by them, could you explain what "Spenglerians" are doing in the list, and why the followers of an obscure, pessimistic, cyclical view of history should abstain from vaccination?
Nor does it look good to repeat his racist use of the pejorative word "Bushmen". I don't know where Olmsted got the notion that the Kalahari San are an unvaccinated population -- perhaps he just leaped to the conclusion that "They are dark-skinned and primitive and exotic, they *must* be unvaccinated" -- but would you like to address the facts yourself, or run away from them?
I presume that this is to be found in Philip Hills' files alongside the "official CDC statement" about the "unknown woman."
Link's broken.
Link’s broken.
It was a deliberate error to see who in the class was paying attention stolen by the Illuminati.
http://www.lac.org.na/projects/lead/Pdf/sannami.pdf
theo, if you think science-based investigators are so corrupt and tainted, why do you insist on they doing the vaxxed/anti-vaxxed study? Why not rush to any of the persons on your list and tell them to do the study...
You may not be familiar with the terms “morbidity” and “mortality”, so I’ll explain them for you. Morbidity means “getting sick”, and mortality means “dying”. Are you really OK with killing and making people sick for science? Why should the rest of society be ok with that?
Thats straight up fear mongering and not true. Nobody is going to die. <---MYTH There are plenty of parents willing to advance science and offer their unvaccinated child for study. There are 10s of 1000s of unvaccinated children all over the USA. THRIVING look at the amish are they dying? look at the the children of Chiropracters they dont vaccinate either. so Paleeassse …….. Wouldnt you want to know what 49 doses vs 0 doses does. I sure do.
I’m confused. Various researchers all over the world have done that very kind of experiment, and you’ve dismissed them all in this very thread as being “easily manipulated”, perhaps because you didn’t like their results. I personally don’t consider experiments that involve literally millions of people to be that easy to manipulate.
There has never been a VAX vs UNVAX study if so please cite it. There have been phone surveys of the unvaxxed showing clearly that they get less ear infections and allergies etc.
there are multiple studies from all kinds of different institutions all over the world that are the very study design you just advocated for,
They only studied vaccinated populations against Autism. If you were to watch Trace Amounts the new documentary from Kennedy he clearly lays out the problems in these types of studies and how they deliberately throw out outliers rerun the statistics to make their case better. The CDC has actually found a correlation to autism and vaccines but its been covered up and at least 2 occasions that we know. Watch the screening and get the other side is all I ask anyone here to do.
Seriously? That doesn’t jive with my personal experience or with anything actual measurements I’ve seen. Back in the bad old days, we used to hide sick children. Where are they hiding now?
Well lets see its Autism Awareness month, 1 in 68 kids get it. then you have ADD and ADHD, Asthma is up significantly May 3, 2011 -- The number of people with asthma has been rising in recent years, but CDC researchers say in a new report that they aren’t sure why.
The CDC says that the number of people diagnosed with asthma grew by 4.3 million between 2001 and 2009, when one in 12 Americans were told they had the lung disease. The proportion of people of all ages with asthma in the U.S. increased from 7.3% (20.3 million people) in 2001 to 8.2% (24.6 million people) in 2009.
TYPE 1 Diabetes
For reasons that are completely mysterious, however, the incidence of type 1 diabetes has been increasing throughout the globe at rates that range from 3 to 5 percent a year. Although the second trend is less well publicized, it is still deeply troubling, because this form of the illness has the potential to disable or kill people so much earlier in their lives“Increases such as the ones that have been reported cannot be explained by a change in genes in such a short period,”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-diabetes-cliffhanger/
It’s kind of hard to justify that statement given that there have been vaccines that were pulled off the market. Were the researchers who discovered the problems with those vaccines mistreated in any way? Be specific.
look up Dr Tenpenny or Dr Suzzane Humphries and see what they call them. They are uncovering BIOLOGICAL research implicating negative effects of vaccines. Clearly you have not been across the fence to explore the opposing side of this argument.
You seem to have missed the part where there isn’t convincing evidence that autoimmune diseases are more common because of vaccination. They’d probably be more willing to admit it if it were true.
With out a long tern study comparing VAX vs UNVAX we sadly will never know.
You seem to have not noticed that most countries have multiple vaccines from different countries licensed, and different countries license different vaccines.
There are only 4 vaccine makers and every govt buys from them. Its a Global powerhouse. while I am on the subject. We may have removed most of the mercury containing Thimerasol from vaccines in the USA all we did was send that garbage over to Africa they still use it.
And if you magically enroll every single one in a study, what do you think the extent of what could be demonstrated (on a single endpoint, mind you) would be?
What degree of similarity between the two groups would convince you that the effect you insist is present in fact isn't?
Oh, yay, it does still exist at the Wayback Machine.
Here, Ilaya Theo theo THEO.
"There has never been a VAX vs UNVAX study"
Wrong. There have been several (another is in the works). Here are links to two of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2260220
The first of those two found no significant health differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids - except that the unvaccinated children were much more likely to get sick with vaccine-preventable diseases.
Such studies are not the sort of prospective, large-scale studies that antivaxers want (and which would be grossly unethical), but the results we've seen can't be pleasing to the antivax mentality.
THEO,
How can you say that when 255 children died of pertussis in the US between 2000 and 2012 and tens of thousands die every year from influenza, that's not even getting into rotavirus, measles and menigitis which used to kill hundreds every year?
Firstly, you can't just compare those who choose to vaccine to those who don't because of a multitude of confounding factors, not least that those who don't vaccinate tend not to see competent doctors who will spot various health problems.
Secondly, as JGC pointed out with good evidence, it is a myth that the Amish don't vaccinate - why do you repeat something that you know to be untrue?
Thirdly, what makes you think unvaccinated children are thriving when their chances of getting VPDs are so much higher than the unvaccinated?
I think what I intended is clear despite the blockquote fail.
Dammit I shouldn't post when I'm in a hurry - the broken link should be Here's a list of 180 or so vaccine manufacturers and I meant 2000, not 200.
GSK just announced that they are building a new Vaccine Research Facility here in Maryland - extremely excited to have cutting-edge research on vaccines going on in my backyard.
Have they?
Hasn't one of these phone survey, organized by Generation Rescue, found actually the opposite?
Theo said
"We may have removed most of the mercury containing Thimerasol from vaccines in the USA all we did was send that garbage over to Africa they still use it.."
Citations?Or have you been listening to Alex Jones again?
Do people like Theo know the MMR vaccine can actually prevent autism?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3123590/
Abstract
Background
Congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) is associated with several negative outcomes, including autism spectrum disorders (ASDs). The objective of this study was to estimate the numbers of CRS and ASD cases prevented by rubella vaccination in the United States from 2001 through 2010.
Methods
Prevention estimates were calculated through simple mathematical modeling, with values of model parameters determined from published literature. Model parameters included pre-vaccine era CRS incidence, vaccine era CRS incidence, the number of live births per year, and the percentage of CRS cases presenting with an ASD.
Results
Based on our estimates, 16,600 CRS cases (range: 8300-62,250) were prevented by rubella vaccination from 2001 through 2010 in the United States. An estimated 1228 ASD cases were prevented by rubella vaccination in the United States during this time period. Simulating a slight expansion in ASD diagnostic criteria in recent decades, we estimate that a minimum of 830 ASD cases and a maximum of 6225 ASD cases were prevented.
Conclusions
We estimate that rubella vaccination prevented substantial numbers of CRS and ASD cases in the United States from 2001 through 2010. These findings provide additional incentive to maintain high measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination coverage.
@Theo
Sorry, IRBs have to go with what the best current understanding of the science is, not your personal hunch, so they have to consider the possibility that potential fatal diseases can in fact kill.
You also completely neglected the fact that VPDs can cause serious and sometimes lifelong affects other than death. Is maiming people in the name of science always ok for you, or just when vaccines are involved?
How noble of those parents to put someone else at risk of serious lifelong consequences for science.
This may come as a shock to you, but it's not considered ethical to maim or kill people in a scientific experiment just because someone else "offers [them] for study". It's even only considered ethical to do something with potential risk of serious harm to actual volunteers under a few special circumstances.
Our local Amish had a pertussis outbreak a bit ago. They were terrified, some of them were pretty miserable, and there was definitely some self-quarantining going on. Not exactly thriving, although there were no deaths to my knowledge.
Oh, BTW, they also have a separate school for their non-neurotypical children. My source says that the community is very pleased because it's lead to better outcomes both for the neurotypicals and the non-neurotypicals. But my source also says that most communities still keep all their children in one school regardless of ability.
Fortunately, you can get a pretty good idea of what they do by reading the multiple epidemiological studies on the topic. Some of them have been linked recently in this very thread!
You seem to have missed the fact that we used to hide that many kids away because they didn't act right. Out of site, out of mind. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Asthma historically has fluctuated wildly, so the trend over a few years isn't exactly meaningful. I've personally observed that doctors tend to set the threshold for calling it asthma lower than they did in my childhood. Even so, the estimated incidence rate is down significantly from its peak back in ye good olde aire pollution dayes.
Back in the pre-vaccination era, type 1 diabetes was always fatal, which seems sicker to me than just having to take insulin. It's not actually a surprise to me that now that people with it can survive to adulthood they're more likely to pass those genes on to the next generation.
You still haven't shown that kids are sicker now than they were when dying of smallpox or becoming paralyzed by polio for life were popular things to do, let alone that vaccines cause more harm than they prevent.
These people are a perfect illustration of what I said. They have not been involved in any safety recalls or pulling off the market of any vaccines to my knowledge. On the other hand, as earlier posters have noted, they have persistently made certain claims about vaccines in contempt of massive evidence to the contrary. It's not really all that surprising that some people have called them quacks.
You don't know how wrong you are. It's just that I've had enough training in how to recognize bad scientific argument that I'm not persuaded by what they have to say.
I've already looked at several long-term VAX vs UNVAX studies, so I do know. Is your desire to know strong enough to click on the links Dangerous Bacon has provided?
I still have a question for you. How do the power and profit motives influence the "different drummers" you like to quote and promote?
My other comment went into moderation-
Interesting- FINANCIAL AND CONFLICT OF INTEREST DISCLOSURES: Dr. G has been funded over the last decade by institutional funds, the Department of Defense, the National Cancer Institute, the ASCO Foundation, and the Breast Cancer Research Foundation. He has recently held a small grant (€30,000) from Bayer HealthCare through its Grants4Targets program, a fact that will no doubt bring forth more criticism. Never mind that the grant expired nearly a year ago. Before that small seed grant, so bereft of pharmaceutical funding was Dr. G that before his talks, as part of his disclosures, he often joked that no pharmaceutical company was interested enough in his research to want to give him any money. For everything else, however, like most biomedical scientists in academia, Dr. G must beg the NIH and other granting agencies for the money to keep his lab going. Please be aware that he does also write elsewhere for a small monthly payment.
@ken:
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Are you telling me that there is an academic blomedical researcher who finances his research through government and research foundation grants, instead of, I don't know, begging on the corner of Main and Fifth, or winning the lottery, or inheriting the money from some oil baron or something like that? Color me shocked!
I'm also surprised that someone that people like reading is getting paid a small monthly payment for writing stuff. That's so 1990's.
When will the people who eek their living out by raiding dumpsters start doing advance biomedical research so that we can really know the truth without influence or bias?
I was going to ask ken how it was that he still can't figure out how not to trigger the automoderation, but since it's based on generic spam filtering tactics, it's probably "learned" that anything he writes is likely to hit the manual moderation queue, and so it might be on more of a hair trigger for him than for people who actually follow the simple rules of don't swear and don't post more than two links.
Oh wait, I just realized that he probably typed in that one name that triggers automoderation just for the lols. Nevermind. He probably didn't know that rule.
#742 I typed in Dr. G's name......It's on the poor,poor.......blog #372 IYAI
@ken (#740):
You do realize that Orac explicitly laid out all of those things of his own accord, right? Do you have any conception of the difference between a disclosed and an undisclosed COI? (Or possible COI, anyway.)
#744 Yes he is God and God has spoken to his disciples. Amen. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUFiG1YBwc
Ken@745: Here's some advice. When you want to post something, read it aloud, and ask yourself "Would a sane, competent, and mature person consider this an acceptable response?" It will save you a great deal of grief in the long run.
No, ken, I'm G-d. Jeez, get it straight.
After Theo borrowed Olmsted's words @713 and made them his own, I had hoped that he would stand by them, and explain what he means by "Spenglerians" and "Bushmen". Imagine my disappointment. It is as if he was copy-pasting without comprehension, or is just trolling.
No, ken, I’m G-d. Jeez, get it straight.
I am Spartacus Philip Hills God!
"all we did was send that garbage over to Africa they still use it.."
Because if they didn't use it, the costs to administer vaccinations would increase, and they can't afford that. Since thimerosal has never been proven to be harmful, third world health officials made a medically and financially sound decision.
Since, as you have just admitted, there has been no thimerosal in US vaccines in years, why hasn't the autism rate dramatically decreased?
Isn't Orac Bonnie Offitt? ;)
"Isn’t Orac Bonnie Offitt?"
Aren't we all?
Personally, I am Inigo Montoya. Prepare to die.
Ich bin Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes.
Because it needs to be stated. I am *Bonnie Offit !
(Perhaps the funniest blog post ever from Orac) and I missed it)
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/16/i-am-bonnie-offit/
I really could be Bonnie because I post comments late at night on a slew of blogs.
I was looking forward all weekend to reading Theo's heartwarming defense of human sacrifice for science's sake, and why the profit motives of people who push dubious ideas is so much purer than those who do research for a living, but I guess it's not to be. I'm going to assume that it's because he read those links Dangerous Bacon linked and realized that everything he'd been insinuating about vaccines is wrong. How embarrassing!
Optimist. ken doesn't even read her own links.
Utterly predictable from Phildo, but it takes a tough man to make a tender beagle.
Narad #664:
ANY injection can cause sarcoma in cats. Would you care to document this?
"Srivastav 2012 "Comparative vaccine-specific
and other injectable-specific risks
of injection-site sarcomas in cats" -- difficult to post as link is long, but if you search for "feline injected site sarcoma adjuvanted 2012" you'll find this as well as other links, but Srivastav especially discusses cases from different vaccines both adjuvanted and not, also other injections.
As to dogs, others - point to any references that say that it's an issue in dogs.
Renate #662
Since the incidence is between 1/1000 and 1/10,000 vaccinations, I donubt you've had enough cats for your personal experience to be of statistical significance. But if you want to see the real cases and look at the pictures, it's enough to search for feline vaccine-associated sarcoma on google/YT - you can see both pictures and videos of cats who had this issue.
I'm sorry to burst your little bubble, but this is EXACTLY and TYPICALLY an American tactic - shut people up and ban all forms of criticism, discussion and debates on the subject. They're very anal about it.
My parents never, ever, allowed anyone to inject filth in my veins and I"m so grateful to them for that (I'm a baby boomer, btw, so I'm not exactly naive).
The only time in my life I've ever been violently ill, was when a power hungry employer demanded we all have an anti-flu vaccine, or lose our jobs.
I had it and was flat on my back for 2 entire weeks, clutching sick buckets and wet towels, alternating between boiling hot and freezing cold, non stop.
When the little psychopath rang me at home to demand I return to work immediately or lose my job (I was barfing into a bucket while she was screaming her vitriol), I snapped (between barfs) and told her to shove it where the sun don't shine.
More people need to grow a pair, put their foot down, and stop letting morons accuse THEM of being irresponsible just because they don't want to jump over the cliff along with all the other mindless sheople.
Screw 'em.
Storm, I find your entire story questionable.
And the fact of the matter is, anti-vaxxers ARE irresponsible. In every outbreak of disease in the US over the last few years, the deliberately unvaccinated were disproportionately likely to get the disease. That measles outbreak at Disneyland? Hardly any fully vaccinated victims.
Dismissing us as sheeple just makes you look like a clueless arrogant fool.
"I know what I'm talking about because I'm a baby boomer!!!" does not exactly inspire me to lend an ear.
Neither does the fact that you've chosen to comment on a thread that's been dormant for nearly two months.