Humpty Dumpty and cranks, quacks, and antivaccinationists

By extension, no study with the involvement of any government, not just the U.S. government, can be considered “uncorrupted.”

Not funded by pharmaceutical/chemical industry, not funded by by government agencies, not funded by NGO foundation like Bill & Melinda Gates'...
Indeed, that doesn't leave many sources of funding for a truly "uncorrupted" study.

Well, ambulance-chaser lawyers (Wakefield) or shopping center chains (Séralini) are apparently acceptable, non-biased sources of financing for the alternative crowd.

On a different, but similarly conspiracy-filled topic, I was once told at a meeting by an anti-GMO person that you could not trust any scientific tudies conducted by companies, Governments or Universities as they were all paid off by Monsanto.

They then proceeded to talk about a study they liked, which I happily pointed out was conducted at a University and therefore corrupted under their rules.

Truly, the word “uncorrupted” and, by extension, the word “corrupted” can mean whatever Humpty Dumpty wants it to mean.

"Corrupted" roughly translates as "funded by anyone other than an anti-vax lobbyist".

In an earlier thread a troll was linking to a report published in “Issues in Law and Medicine”, which on close attention turns out to be a nozzle through which the "National Legal Center for the Medically Dependent and Disabled Inc" squeezes out an unprocessed stream of anti-abortion, anti-contraception theocratic bullsh1t . But it the report was anti-vax, so therefore it must be "uncorrupted"!

Funny how the one study recently funded by SafeMinds (the follow-up Primate Study) didn't show what anti-vaxers expected it would show......

And yet I don't see anti-vaxers ponying up money to fund the very studies they claim they want to see.....

I wonder if anyone has done a power analysis for a hypothetical vaccinated versus unvaccinated study. This means determining how many kids would need to be enrolled to reliably detect a side effect that occurred in 1 in 1,000 people, for example. The rarer the side effect, the more people would need to be enrolled.

Whenever someone suggests a vaccinated versus unvaccinated study, I always ask them what their power analysis revealed about how many people need to be enrolled in the study. No answer so far.

Placebo-controlled double-blind study of curr vax schedule funded by ind source.

I was just saying in another thread that I can't figure out why this one won't die. If Avers would just think for a second they would realize that even from their point of view it's unethical. If I "knew" that vaccines were poison I would never advocate a study like this. Then I again I'm not an awful person who hates children.

If Avers would just think for a second

I think I see the problem here :-).

Speaking of which, "think" is another one of those words the anti-vax uses to mean what they want, instead of what most people use it to mean. You are supposed to look at web sites they approve of, ignore the ones they don't (because those web sites are in on the conspiracy), and naturally come to the same conclusions they do.

As for the proposed study in question: Maybe these people are stuck in a world where scientists routinely perform Godwin-worthy experimental medical atrocities. There is a reason we have institutional review boards: to prevent any research involving human or animal subjects from becoming such an atrocity. Anybody who is familiar with IRBs and not self-deluded would realize at once that no IRB would approve any study along the lines of what the "safe vaccines" people want.

@Yvette - That's been discussed here:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/24/its-so-cute-when-anti-vaxe…

I would argue that we should be developing those "nightmare" algorithms to model genetic markers for predisposition.

No one's saying that we shouldn't. What I'm saying is that antivaccinationists have no clue just what's involved in doing so. There's also the question of risk versus cost. Given how rare true vaccine injuries are, how many resources are we willing to divert to invest in this research, given that it will take a lot of resources to develop and validate such models. The bang for the buck, from a public health perspective, is not that great, and even a near-perfect predictive risk model wouldn't persuade antivaccine parents to vaccinate.

Thanks for the link love, Orac!

@capnkrunch and Eric Lund

Exactly. Having served in a volunteer capacity on an IRB for a while, I got to see and be part of that whole process. There are a lot of regulations to keep in mind. That IRB also required certification that you understand and can apply ethics requirements to different scenarios.

Which brings to mind a couple other things AVers trot out but don't really understand: The Nuremberg Code and the Belmont Report. They're happy to cite them when they think they support their attacks on real medicine, but quickly forget about them when convenient.

Why would my newborn *need* a hep vaccine? Hopefully he didn't, but I for one practice "better safe than sorry" and I consider vaccines to be as safe as potatoes and broccoli. Yes, he could have been allergic to one, or have had a side issue that means he shouldn't have one. (His cousin gets hives from potatoes and their grandfather takes a medication that doesn't always play nice with dark greens). I'd have given him all his vaccinations as a newborn if that were possible. I didn't catch chicken pox until I was 9, so I wouldn't have *needed* a vaccine at 7, though my sister would have, since she was 7 that when we got it that summer. Good thing we caught it then and not the next june, when our brother was a newborn. You never fricking know when you might catch a vpd.

Here Doktor - 'corrupted' to these people means 'with findings that support my opinion.'

I recently argued with an anti-vax mom about Hep B vaccine. She somehow could not imagine a scenario in which a newborn could need surgery - because you know, accidents never happen to newborns, right?

It's always the Hep B vaccine...because when people see "Hep B" they think DIRTY SEX!

While it won't change antivaxxers, I think somehow changing the population's impression of "sexually transmitted" to "blood-borne pathogen" will help. A blood-borne pathogen that can be passed through just about every body fluid except clean sweat, including a bite, and can live active and transmissible for up to 14 days even in DRIED fluid. Fluid that comes from the high percentage of chronic HBV carriers who aren't even aware they have the infection.

Last I knew, birth was a blood bath. HCWs are one of the highest risk groups for HBV and they're in that room with all kinds of sharp objects. Kids spit and bite each other all the time. Yet it's still predominantly known as from sex and drug use, even on sites from the CDC and WHO. Education really needs to be updated to include vertical transmission to newborns, and non-sex/drugs horizontal transmission to anyone.

Herr doktor bimler @ 4: "...nozzle..." Instant contagious meme! Congratulations.

Nozzle: noun, a particularly aggressive source of propaganda that is at odds with facts established by science.

---

Something to try on the antis:

"Have you ever given your children any sort of medicine?"

"Yeah, I give them (whatever), what's it to you?"

(quick look-up of statisics) "How do you justify that, in light of the fact that the reported serious side effects of (whatever medicine) include (list)...?

They will of course play "duck and cover" or at least "quack and run." But the goal of these sorts of exchanges is show undecideds (who are probably lurking in the background) that the antis are full of bovine excrement.

There will be those who reply to the initial question, "I only give them homeopathic remedies and traditional Maoist herbs." Deal with those as you wish, but mild ridicule works better than crushing ridicule, as the latter tends to shift undecideds' sympathies toward the recipient.

because when people see “Hep B” they think DIRTY SEX!

Just like when they see "Gardisil" and think "precocious and/or promiscuous sex".

As a physician it is sometimes a real struggle to get patients to see the value in being immunized. I also deal with an immune suppressed population due to organ transplant and immunization is especially important for protection. Patients hear conflicting messages on TV and other media all the time.
You can check my June 14th post on "Is bad luck really a diagnosis"?
http://darwinskidneys.blogspot.com

I am quite baffled about the statement capnkrunch re
'Placebo-controlled double-blind study of curr vax schedule funded by ind source'. "If I “knew” that vaccines were poison I would never advocate a study like this. Then I again I’m not an awful person who hates children". You know, there are actually enough children to do the study - there are enough not vaccinated whose parents know that they cannot be safely vaccinated. There are enough adults that know that they themselves cannot be safely vaccinated to participate too. I put my hand up for it. Immediately. Can I prove that I cannot be safely vaccinated? No. I 'only' got polio from the vaccination. Was it reported? Of course not. I also 'only' got the flu and then bronchitis every time I got the flu injection. Was it reported? No of course not. I also got chronic fatigue immediately after a TB 'vaccination'. The thing is the idiot doctor put three into me because the first two didn't register. Brilliant. I was dizzy within an hour and could barely stay awake for the next three years. Great stuff this vaccination medicine, people. Now - how would I prove that I am sensitive to vaccinations? Well to have another one of course. That's how its done. But you know what? I prefer to live disease free rather than getting free doses of it from the government. I have no intention whatsoever of ruining my life quality to please people who don't trust the very thing that they say protects them. For goodness sake, it isn't rocket science - if vaccinations work then you are safe, aren't you? And if they don't work, what is your problem? You say that you are concerned about those who can't vaccinate. NO you are not. You harrass those who can't vaccinate. The only dead babies you report are those that were not vaccinated. You don't openly report those that are dead FROM vaccination or those that are maimed for life. You call them 'anecdotes'. You call the parents liars. And I am not an anecdote either - I a person who has had enough of being made ill by vaccinations and this 'vaccinations are very safe' . Vaccinations can and do harm people. They are a medical procedure that must be a choice. The herd immunity in Australia is already safe. Australia is over 90% vaccinated. You don't seem to be too worried about the wealthy people who don't vaccinate their children. Isn't that interesting? Those that go to private schools? Or the doctors that have been granted permission to not vaccinate their families because they have been able to show that they fully understand the whole story about vaccination? It is true that vaccinations appear safe for most. But they are not safe for too many. They were not safe for my children - who by the way, were never ever ill and not vaccinated. It is total garbage that it is the unvaccinated who are more prone to something like measles. When vaccinated kids were getting measles, mine were not. And anyway, I had measles as a child and so did the whole jolly town. We are all still alive and fine - from that. However, once we had been vaccinated against polio - several kids in that town now had polio. Myself included. There is too much unknown about the safety of vaccinations. The safety tests must be done and there are enough people to do it. It is not irresponsible and all. It is, however, highly unethical and dangerous to coerce people who may feel that they have no choice but to comply if they can't afford to risk being jailed for not sending their child to school. And it is horrific that any child's education should be a bargaining tool by the government. It is also horrific that anyone's job should be on the line due to not being vaccinated.What could happen instead is regular mandatory health checks. Doesn't that sound reasonable rather than removing people's right to consent? Or does it seriously sound like a good idea to everyone here to hand the government the right to tell everyone what medications they must take under pain of punishment? It will be really interesting what you all think of this idea in a few years if this allowed to go through. I do realise that right now, so many actually believe that governments motivations are for the good of the people and not their own power advancement. Just use your imagination just a little. Where could it go? What sort of things could everyone be forced to take - and what could happen if the government gets to say by law that it owns the rights to your children's bodies and yours? Does anyone know history by any chance?

I just want to make a general point about medication, and presumably vaccines, and the studies done with them.
When I was working on new drug studies, I asked the rep what she considered an adverse event. Would getting hit by a bus qualify? Yes. Losing his/her savings in a bank crash? Also yes. Getting hit by a meteor? Of course; the reason being that there would be an outside chance, however small, that the subject's ability to predict or escape from the adverse event might have been affected, even in the event of a meteor strike.

I really don´t know why Ginger et al continue to push for these things. It´s not going to happen. Period.
I know they want to think that their snowflakes are different from one another, but they really aren't. It is beyond arrogant to think so. If and when people get a reaction to a vaccine, it's not because they're unique. It's a combination of different things, but it's not unique.
But that's par for the course for people like Ginger, who think that they are smarter than they really are, or that they should be heard at the same level as true experts. Her smug attitude and self-delusion will change nothing. Tomorrow, a year from tomorrow, and a century from tomorrow, we will still be using vaccines. In some cases, we will still use the vaccine technology we use today, and nothing will stop that.
Ginger and her friends need to realize that they are part of a cult that is a couple of hundred years old and has accomplished absolutely nothing good in terms of public health other than to give me work to do, and, of course, a few laughs and a few eyerolls. Their product is pure evil, working hard to make sure that children get vaccine-preventable diseases. Heck of a legacy if you ask me.
Like Donald Trump, if my kids ever ask me who Ginger or Wakefield or any other antivax loon was, my answer will be a hearty LOL.
In other words, they can go eff themselves because we're not halting vaccination programs that are based on clear and sound scientific evidence.

The commenters at Natural News today don't even believe in germ theory. Reading the debates of anti-vaxxxers is certainly an eye-opener. By which I mean startling or possibly even frightening.

@ capnkruch #7

If I “knew” that vaccines were poison I would never advocate a study like this.

[Standing ovation] Oh, yes! This reminds me of one of my grad school profs' comment on the experimental 'social science' studies attempting to establish links between pornography and 'aggression' by recruiting college-male research subjects, showing them pornos, and doing some before-and-after 'attitude assessment measure" e.g. the work of researcher Edward Donnerstein. She (grinning) referred to this as "Eddie's school for rapists". At a conference, a few of us posed the question to one of Donnerstein's grad students, who was working on similar stuff: 'How can you show this stuff to volunteers if you even suspect it leads to violence towards women?' He got what I perceived as a slightly crazed look in his eye, and replied, "This is important stuff, and I just have to KNOW!"

Then I again I’m not an awful person who hates children.

Without opening the can of worms containing "awful person", "hate" and how AVers feel about their own "damaged" kids, I think we can safely say that this is more evidence that these folks are all me-me-me, and would happily damage somebody else's kids in that placebo-controlled double-blind RCT if it validated their martyrdom in having to deal with a special-needs child rather than showing off to the world the perfect special snowflake reflection of their oh-so-wonderful special selves.

"WhiteCrow" is a Poe, right? I hit the antivax bingo about ten lines in.

WhiteCrow: "Vaccinations can and do harm people. They are a medical procedure that must be a choice."

Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American or Australian pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

Though before you do that: learn how to use paragraphs.

HDB @4 -- With your "nozzle" meme and your "vuvuzueala-blower status" yesterday, you're defintely on a roll. Which is certainly better than being on a bun!

Ren @25 -- I didn't read WhiteCrow, because the lack of paragraph breaks correlates so strongly with, well, you know.

Finally: As with all cranks, these folks suffer from epistemic closure. In a similar manner, global warming pseudo-skeptics have come up with an exactly parallel conspiracy theory to argue away any evidence for the scientific consensus -- namely that all those physical scientists get grants from the Government, which means they're adjusting the results to please their paymasters. The fact that the Government, and all other governments worldwide, is doing far less than needed to mitigate the threat, is conveniently ignored.

A great read on epistemic closure, and how it applies to the entire political Right in the US, is Bruce Bartlett's "The Revenge of the Reality-Based Community", published in (of all places) The American Conservative. It's easily found online.

Also, WhiteCrow, here is some reading for you and your privileged bum:
http://epidemiological.net/2015/07/07/colombia-day-15/

Here, White Crow--digest this: http://thespudd.com/im-not-anti-parachute-im-pro-safe-parachute/

You know, there are actually enough children to do the study – there are enough not vaccinated whose parents know that they cannot be safely vaccinated. There are enough adults that know that they themselves cannot be safely vaccinated to participate too. I put my hand up for it. Immediately.

That's not the study, WhiteCrow. They want DOUBLE-BLINDED, which means the vaccinated and unvaccinated which straw they drew. It's the only way to ensure it's truly random. You sign up, you get an injection, you don't know what it is, placebo or vaccine!

Antivaxxers won't do it anymore than someone like me, who would never let my child go unvaccinated, especially if I never knew. They'd never allow it to potentially not happen.

You're thinking retrospective, on groups of kids who were never vaccinated because their parents are antivaxxers which HAS BEEN DONE, or a non-blinded study in which each participant is biased towards what they know is going on. Try again.

If it weren't for your study suggestion, I'd think Poe. But you honestly seem serious in your stupidity in that regard, so I really think we've gotten an honest to goddness antivax bingo out of you.

palindrom -- back in the old days (when I was a child, so late Jurassic), "conservative" =/= "knuckle-dragging science-denier."

My very conservative father (may he rest in peace) would be reeling at what passes for conservatism nowadays.

Whitecrow, you realize you're suggesting that we compare health outcomes between a cohort of healthy, vaccinated subjects and a cohort of unvaccinated subjects suffering from at least one known medical condition serious enough to render them an unsuitable candidate for routine vaccination? By what stretch of the imagination could those two cohorts be considered similar enough to generate any meaningful conclusion?

I had measles as a child and so did the whole jolly town. We are all still alive and fine – from that.

Survivor's bias: many others had measles and are not alive (my great uncle, Roald Dahl's daughter, the immunocompromised women in Clallam county, the child in Germany who was too young to be vaccinated against mealses, over 145,000 people worldwide in 2013 alone...) and many other's are not fine but suffering serious adverse outcomes other than death.

"I would have moved my arm and blocked that meteor, but because it was just too darn sore after being stuck by that needle I got hit by it instead."

The ethics issue means that only a non-randomized retrospective study would be permitted, and the problem with that is that the unvaccinated are self-selected. We don't know how many people don't vaccinate their children because of a family history of immune problems, for example. If more unvaccinated people have immune problems (and therefore more frequent and more serious infections) this would be a confounder that made it look as if vaccines prevent against infections.

Similarly a parent who doesn't vaccinate may well be less likely to take a child to see a doctor they have an ear infection, for example. This would skew the results in the opposite direction, making it look as if vaccinated children get more ear infections. Even a case control study wouldn't overcome the latter problem.

The violence of anti-vaccine rhetoric has consequences:

Authorities have warned California legislative offices to be on the lookout for a Southern California man arrested last week and suspected of spraying graffiti that threatened lawmakers for the approval of Senate Bill 277, which outlaws religious and personal belief exemptions for school-required vaccines.

The California Highway Patrol issued a bulletin to sergeants-at-arms’ offices in the Assembly and Senate about Marlon Brian Andrino, who was arrested July 2 in Beverly Hills on a charge of felony vandalism. Police say Andrino spray-painted “4 Every Kid Afflicted A Public Figure Will Die, SB 277” at four locations.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article267…

I hope Orac doesn't mind, but here's part 1 of 4 discussing why, with references to legal and ethical documents, a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study would never fly: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2011/03/vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-rct-overview.html

You know, there are actually enough children to do the study

Once again, cue Prometheus.

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but Superabimus' nym means "We shall overcome" in Latin. Way to co-opt a civil rights history to which you have no right and swank about your eddication at the same time. Fiends.

I don't even want to start with the Wonder Woman avatar ...

It is total garbage that it is the unvaccinated who are more prone to something like measles.

Uh-huh.

@Narad

Aw, man. I miss Prometheus.

Is Whitecrow even American? How do you get chronic fatigue from a TB vaccination that was never given in the USA? Is he/she talking about the simple TB test???

Yeah, I hit Bingo myself, but I really did try to wade through that screed.

You don’t seem to be too worried about the wealthy people who don’t vaccinate their children. Isn’t that interesting?

Only in the sense that you seem to be admiring something that you pulled out of your ass.

@White Crow -

I had to smile at your "quietly letting the wealthy off the hook." Both comments and blog posts here point out that the majority of personal belief exemptions and vaccine deniers are affluent and white. We call them out. We don't give them a pass.

We also are hampered by truth. We will never say vaccines are 100% safe or will give 100% immunity. They are safer than the disease and are constantly evaluated and researched for improvement.

I understand why vaccines are scary. You have to let someone approach you with a needle and they assure you it will make a permanent change in the way your body works. There's a part of your brain that says, "Not so fast... if they can do a good change, they can do bad ones, too." That's only human. If you have had a vaccine reaction, it is even worse. My worst vaccine reaction ever was a low-grade fever and icky for 24 hours after a flu vaccine. Who knows. May or may not have been related.

WhiteCrow@20

There are enough adults that know that they themselves cannot be safely vaccinated to participate too. I put my hand up for it. Immediately.

You clearly don't understand RCTs. The 'R' is for random. Your children would be just as likely to be in the vaccine group as the placebo group. You are volunteering your children to be given something you "know" to be poison. If you don't want your children in it then that's even worse, you are requesting that others poison their children to prove your point. Like I said before, THINK! Eric Lund got it right in #8.

sadmar@24

“This is important stuff, and I just have to KNOW!”

Reminded me of this.

back in the old days (when I was a child, so late Jurassic), “conservative” =/= “knuckle-dragging science-denier.”

Anti-vaxers are not the only people in the US who have been playing a Humpty-Dumpty like role in public discourse. I frequently wonder just what these so-called conservatives are actually conserving. They certainly don't follow the dictionary definition. And they prefer not to be constrained by reality, another trait American conservatives have in common with anti-vaxers.

As conservative icon Rush Limbaugh once said, words mean things. That's about the only sensible statement that has ever been attributed to Mr. Limbaugh, and he certainly doesn't follow that advice.

Sequela of vaccine-preventable diseases include the little-known but feared consequence of loss of paragraph skills (as demonstrated by WhiteCrow).

Not fatal, but somewhat debilitating.

In related news, over at AoA, Julie Obradovic badly misunderstands the categorical imperative – to the point of not recognizing the part of speech – today.

It's of course just a weird prop, but the commentariat hasn't noticed that one immediate outcome is that hiding is the herd and all related constructions go right out the window.

MI Dawn @42:

If Whitecrow is around my age (51) they might have gotten the TB vaccine here in the U.S.: it was given to (some) American children for a few years.

That's a relatively minor point, but worth mentioning, I think.

^ "in the herd"

Is Whitecrow even American?

"The herd immunity in Australia is already safe. Australia is over 90% vaccinated."

Note also the spelling "realise."

Narad, I try to stay out of AoA...

The post below Obradovic's is Dachel getting all snitty about Emily Willingham returning to Forbes, and Willingham's coverage of Steve Silberman's upcoming book, Neurotribes.

I can hardly wait for Neurotribes to be published... and the "autism is vaccine injury" crowd are going to have quite strong reactions to the book. As in "blown fuses".

#52
Liz Ditz,
THERE YOU ARE!
How many California Assembly persons have you contacted to push the OVERTURN THE THIMEROSAL BAN campaign? I've already contacted many, and they were VERY interested. I really need everyone's help to get the ball rolling. I'm still waiting for Herr Doctor to get a model bill written. Don't forget to push these points:

Why do you continue to keep LIFE-SAVING THIMEROSAL out of California vaccines?????????? ARE YOU JUST RACIST? DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO DRAIN THE TAXES OF CALIFORNIANS UNNECESSARILY?

IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA,
IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA!

Please vote to OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA BAN ON THIMEROSAL!
It is SAFE. It is EFFECTIVE, and it is CHEAP!
BRING BACK THE ECONOMICAL MULTI-DOSE VIALS!
Supported by Californian’s HOPING for some CHANGE to pay the BILLS.

http://www.semissourian.com/story/147068.html
“The outcome reflected the position of the World Health Organization that the small amount of thimerosal used in vaccines is safe. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics, which called for thimerosal to be removed from children’s vaccines over a decade ago, last year came out in favor of exempting the preservative from the mercury treaty.

The exemption also stemmed from a widely shared economic judgment that the cost to make and distribute thimerosal-free vaccines would be steep and couldn’t be justified by the uncertain benefits.

Richard Mwendandu, a delegate from Kenya, said African nations that expressed concerns about thimerosal agreed by the end that the preservative is still critical to vaccination programs aimed at reducing childhood deaths, and should be used until a good alternative is found. “There is no cost-effective and reliable alternative at this moment,” Mwendandu said.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/world_health_organization_approves_use_…

“Senator Elizabeth Warren: Vaccines are safe, effective & protect our children”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UlXgoQwGk

#36
WE ARE ALL ARTISTS NOW!
I guess Marlon Brian Andrino should take a cue from U.C. Berkely...

“We are a collective of queer and POC artists responsible for the images of historical lynchings posted to several locations in Berkeley and Oakland,” reads a notice the group distributed. “These images connect past events to present ones – referencing endemic faultlines of hatred and persecution that are and should be deeply unsettling to the American consciousness."
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2014/12/13/effigy-hung-from-sather-gate-bef…

Hey toto. I don't see what the fuss is about return of thimerosal. After all it's not like you and your ilk changed the opinion about vaccines after the removal of it. Au contraire, the whole "mercury and toxins" thing keeps on strong.

So if vaccines are root of all evil either way and apparently contain mercury just because of course they do, it's vaccines we are talking about after all, why not just put thimerosal back in? Makes no difference.

"“The herd immunity in Australia is already safe. Australia is over 90% vaccinated.” Narad

Well I can't wait for the next epidemic of 'vaccine failure' there, it's a sure bet.

Oh looks like herd immunity in Australia has just gone down Narad, pity I didn't put a wager on it!

As many as 4,500 people could be sickened by measles after a paramedic infected with the highly contagious virus visited four hospitals and a tourist site, officials in the state of Queensland, Australia fear. The paramedic represented the eighth case of measles in Queensland in 2015.

http://www.ibtimes.com/australia-measles-outbreak-2015-thousands-risk-a…

So Narad, is this primary vaccine failure, dodgy batch, wrong process or again - mythical medical herd immunity 'not in action'.

Glad you are not planning my health plan!

And how is a non-vaccinated person contracting measles "vaccine failure?"

"but this misses the complexity of measles transmission, and that fact that measles epidemics can occur despite high rates of vaccination and despite the vaccine itself having high efficacy (>90%). Much fuss is being made about poor vaccination rates in children in the US - however, overall vaccination rates are 92% in the US and similarly high in Australia. In the affected areas in Sydney, measles vaccination rates according to the Australian Childhood Vaccination Register were over 95%, but the register only captures children under the age of 7 registered in Australia. Furthermore, measles is declared eliminated in both the US and Australia." measles peer reveiwoo

So measles still occurs in highly vaccinated and people like Narad still claim irradication - I mean seriously - it's either here or it isn't, are you sure you aren't basing your bias on medical peer review? despite high vaccination - that means it never works, you can't blame the unvaccinated.

The medical myth of elimination versus eradication, more weasel words from the doctors.

Sitting ducks

@Frequent Lurker #16
Funny thing is, I've never thought of Hep B as a sexually-transmitted disease. Probably because over here the vaccine was for many years not mandatory to anyone but HCWs - but people were advised to get a full series of shots before any planned surgery. So for me it was always a blood-borne disease - and so it is for many people. And then you get this anti-vax mom who claims that her newborn baby does not need the shot, because after all, newborns to not go to a dentist, a hairdresser or a beautician and they are protected by their moms from any nasty accidents like falling out of the pram, which would send them into ER - so there are no ways to contact the virus.

So I read phildo's link before blocking the sockpuppet. The Australian man's vaccine status is unknown. And, IIRC, while Australia as a country has good vaccination levels, there are pockets where they are very low, and Queensland has a bunch of those pockets.

Can any of our Oz friends correct me if I'm wrong?

For the record, phildo, eradication of a virus doesn't mean there are no cases. It means it is no longer endemic, that is, new cases are either imported or are contracted from the importer, and the outbreak burns itself out. You cannot guarantee no cases at all until it's eradicated from the whole planet.

"Hey toto. I don’t see what the fuss is about return of thimerosal."
I guess you can't read. Let me try again.
MONEY MONEY MONEY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxmCCsMoD0

AN EXTRA $.50/ JAB TO TAKE OUT A HARMLESS SUBSTANCE THAT KEEPS VACCINES SAFE. AN INCREASED COST OF UP TO $18.4 MILLION!
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CALIFORNIA+POPULAT…

IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA
IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA!

http://www.semissourian.com/story/147068.html
“The outcome reflected the position of the World Health Organization that the small amount of thimerosal used in vaccines is safe. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics, which called for thimerosal to be removed from children’s vaccines over a decade ago, last year came out in favor of exempting the preservative from the mercury treaty.

The exemption also stemmed from a widely shared economic judgment that the cost to make and distribute thimerosal-free vaccines would be steep and couldn’t be justified by the uncertain benefits.

Richard Mwendandu, a delegate from Kenya, said African nations that expressed concerns about thimerosal agreed by the end that the preservative is still critical to vaccination programs aimed at reducing childhood deaths, and should be used until a good alternative is found. “There is no cost-effective and reliable alternative at this moment,” Mwendandu said.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/world_health_organization_approves_use_…

“Senator Elizabeth Warren: Vaccines are safe, effective & protect our children”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UlXgoQwGk

CONTINUING THE THIMEROSAL BAN MAKES CALIFORNIA LOOK RACIST AND IT MAKES IT APPEAR THAT ANTI-VAXXERS ARE TELLING THE TRUTH: THIMEROSAL CAUSES VACCINE INJURY.

Now is the time to OVERTURN THE BAN. The MANDATED VACCINE LAW passed with flying colors. THE CITIZENS KNOW ALL VACCINES ARE SAFE, INCLUDING ONES WITH FULL THIMEROSAL DOSES. NOT OVERTURNING IT GIVES A FOOTHOLD TO THE ENEMY!

CAN I COUNT ON YOU TO CALL THE CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY MEMBERS AND PUSH FOR THIS BILL?

LIZ! Dr. Bemler! I need to hear from you!

phildo@57

So Narad, is this primary vaccine failure, dodgy batch, wrong process or again – mythical medical herd immunity ‘not in action’.

Unsurprisingly, you seem to have misunderstood what "at risk" means.

@59

The medical myth of elimination versus eradication, more weasel words from the doctors.

Oh phildo, weasel words are what your ilk uses when they refuse to define them or change generally accepted meaning (i.e. "directly into thebbloodstream" for IM injections). Elimination and eradication have well defined meanings when it comes to diseases. Note that this is from 1993. Thanks to the lies you and yours spread measels is no longer an example of elimination of infection.

-Elimination of disease: Reduction to zero of the incidence of a specified disease in a defined geographical area as a result of deliberate efforts; continued intervention measures are required. Example: neonatal tetanus.
-Elimination of infections: Reduction to zero of the incidence of infection caused by a specific agent in a defined geographical area as a result of deliberate efforts; continued measures to prevent re-establishment of transmission are required. Example: measles, poliomyelitis.
-Eradication: Permanent reduction to zero of the worldwide incidence of infection caused by a specific agent as a result of deliberate efforts; intervention measures are no longer needed. Example: smallpox.

By the way, I respect your decision to stop impersonating others. Keep up the good work!

"And how is a non-vaccinated person contracting measles “vaccine failure?”Lawrence the trying

My dear boy, Narad harped on about herd immunity - shouldn't matter whose been vaccinated or not, point was even Narad's medical myth of reaching the required 90blah% means fail again for associative 'protection'.

I still ain't Phil, never was, just seemed easier to join the flow of sewage by picking up any name. Johnny isn't Johnny and NobRed may be Narad - we just don't know.

What on earth Capcrunch is we can only guess, I have a vision of something like a cross between a homeopath and a straw man.

“And how is a non-vaccinated person contracting measles “vaccine failure?”Lawrence the trying

My dear boy, Narad harped on about herd immunity – shouldn’t matter whose been vaccinated or not, point was even Narad’s medical myth of reaching the required 90blah% means fail again for associative ‘protection’.

I still ain’t Phil, never was, just seemed easier to join the flow of sewage by picking up any name. Johnny isn’t Johnny and NobRed may be Narad – we just don’t know.

What on earth Capcrunch is we can only guess, I have a vision of something like a cross between a homeopath and a straw man. It's all in the name.

Keep it up Phillip Hills. I imagine you are only one or two new user auto moderations from getting yourself banned.

Um, maybe I'm misunderstanding the Phil, but it almost read as if he thinks what is meant my herd immunity is at some magic % then all unvaccinated people become magically immune through osmosis and since that doesn't happen, there is no herd immunity.

The protection is much more fragile than that, how it protects those who can't be vaccinated is when someone brings it into a community that has had zero cases--regardless of how someone managed to catch it elsewhere and bring it in--the odds are it is unlikely anyone exposed to the infectious person gets sick and thus it dies out like a candle under a fire hose rather than spreading like a candle set too close to a window curtain. How bad the spread will depend on how "flammable" the population is.

New disease no one has ever had will cause a "hotter" and more damaging "fire" of infection than a disease that at least some people can't get or a population where odds are no one near the sick person can get ill so the vulnerable person is almost never exposed to the disease at all.

@#69: "How bad the spread will depend on how “flammable” the population is."

I like the fire analogies... I often refer to the unvaccinated as "kindling".

I'm getting thoroughly fed up with 'pheeldo' or whatever he wants to call himself changing his 'nym. I have killfiled him and have no wish to see his offensive drivel. I hope Orac either bans him or insists he sticks to a 'nym.

The (only) problem with banning someone like phil/pheel/false johnny is that such an act will inflate an already swollen ego and lead to delusions of relevance.

Does anyone know of a good killfile for Firefox that works on IP addresses rather than names? With both toto/Toto and Phildo/johnny/phlido/pheeldo playing "change that 'nym" I'd like to be able to block them more permanently.

For an IP based block to work, you would have to know their IPs, and I'm not aware of any message board or blog commenting templates that distribute the IPs of the commenters out to the other users. Our host has the ability to see commenters IPs, and to block them, but the board software won't let us, the minions, see each other's IPs.

I hope Orac either bans him or insists he sticks to a ‘nym.

Or stops approving them in the first place, whatever.

His blog, his rules.

““The herd immunity in Australia is already safe. Australia is over 90% vaccinated.” Narad

I see that the newly lowercased Sporter of the Essex Muff still can't figure out how quotations work. And that Tutu has also played the change-the-pseudonym game yet again ("Toto," "Toto 'the Rock'," Toto 'The Rock'," and "Herr Toto," at least).

So little time, so many killfile entries.

The (only) problem with banning someone like phil/pheel/false johnny is that such an act will inflate an already swollen ego and lead to delusions of relevance lead to ever more patheticaly desperate attempts to evade the block.

FTFY (although I don't think WP's stock moderation panel understands CIDR).

This is too amusing for me to ignore even as I begin to doze: The Dachelbot is excited.

Ignoring the cut-and-paste blob, check out the actual site:

The Legal Edition – Host & Producer, Attorney-Policy Analyst, Mary Kay Elloian, M.B.A., J.D., Esq.

Yah.

Speaking of herd immunity.

I assume the DOD is very concerned about herd immunity -- any infectious disease, from pinkeye on up, runs through a barracks like a gasoline fire.

Narad -- that's a real balanced panel Ms. Elloian has set up, isn't it?

And that Tutu has also played the change-the-pseudonym game yet again

The dude's desperate craving for attention does not impose a need for me to supply it.

@Johnny #74.

I have seen a message board that posted the IP's of each poster, so some software packages do allow it. The one I saw was a pretty strange little corner of the interwebs (and IIRC there was a way to post anonymously to the board at least for some folks).

@phlldo - tell us the one about germ theory requiring spontaneous generation. That always makes me laugh.

#80 Shay:

"I assume the DOD is very concerned about herd immunity — any infectious disease, from pinkeye on up, runs through a barracks like a gasoline fire."

Been there - seen that! Long ago in an ancient age when I was in army boot camp at Fort Lewis, we were sequestered to our individual barracks - Not supposed to even walk over to talk with other "trainees" in the next barracks! It was a time of meningitis in a couple of boot camps - Notably Ft. Lewis, Ft. Ord and Ft. Dix. Later, following advanced (91C) medic training, I cared for of the meningitis patients at Walson Army Hospital at Ft Dix! That's where I learned to draw blood cultures directly into culture bottles.

I must have had pinkeye four times when I was stationed on Okinawa. At Quantico, for some reason, it was strep throat.. *Everybody* caught strep throat.

^ I tend to agree with Patrick Non-White that "it is a hallmark of pomposity and pretension in a lawyer when one refers to herself as 'Esquire'."

RobRN: "Notably Ft. Lewis, Ft. Ord and Ft. Dix."

Wow, that was a while ago. I know that two of those names don't really exist anymore. The first is "Joint Base Lewis-McChord" and the second does not exist other than the Navy Postgraduate School with lots of foreign language instruction, A Google street map tour shows me that the building I went to 2nd and 3rd grade is now part of a defense language school. It used to be Stillwell Elementary school, and it was very interesting having military police as crossing guards (usually very young men who were glad they weren't in Vietnam).

"@phlldo – tell us the one about germ theory requiring spontaneous generation. That always makes me laugh." mistybrain

Yes I often titter at the thought of doctors wondering why the 'germs just appear' as if by magik - but that is the lot of the spontiseparatist, all disease is bad luck or bad ether, or some kind of mystical inheritance.

One wonders why the 'proper doctor' claiims any scientific lineage at all.

And Pasteur rolls in his grave.

"The (only) problem with banning someone like phil/pheel/false johnny is that such an act will inflate an already swollen ego and lead to delusions of relevance lead to ever more patheticaly desperate attempts to evade the block." the nob

Well not really, it just reinforces the fact that this site is full of winging wallys, broken med students who scrape fake news into bull. When it is pointed out that a) this woman didn't die of measles or Australia has failed herd immunity with regard to measles, Disney outbreaks of measles had more to do with advertising flawed measles vaccine than any attempt to provide protection - you ban me!

That is why you come across as a bunch of Catholics - rather amusing and fun to play with. I suppose it is cruel really, winding up the disadvantaged and the deceased but you get what you dish out.

I am not Johnny or Phil either, but it will suffice for now.

"Does anyone know of a good killfile for Firefox that works on IP addresses rather than names? With both toto/Toto and Phildo/johnny/phlido/pheeldo playing “change that ‘nym” I’d like to be able to block them more permanently." myopic Dawn

Dawn, has it occurred to you that if you ban all the people that are pointing out the holes in your posting, you are going to have a very boring site. On top of that you are going to have a lot of blog that is full of vaccine rhetoric, which doesn't look very scientific. Narad is the one with the tissue and self abuse problem, let's not have a girly playing that game too - please

#62
Here's how you handle those that you don't have the intellectual capacity to debate with:
https://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/01/12/bouygues-led-balloon/
It's MUCH easier.

Narad if you are going to post self flagellating claims of Australia reaching herd immunity safety, have the balls to accept that it is failing when reports tell us of multiple measles outbreak in Oz.

It comes across like you are in some kind of vaccine failure denial and is bringing the tone of the blog down somewhat.

"Dawn, has it occurred to you that if you ban all the people that are pointing out the holes in your posting"

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. A killfile is just a way of ignoring you, not a banning. I only read your brain droppings for the laughs.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

I'd say his continuing inability to correctly attribute quotations makes that obvious.

It's a very long time since I read anything even slightly amusing from phildo. He's staying in my killfile.

Okay, I have a warped notion of the absurd. It is kind of like watching the theater of the macabre, but with less sense. I just generally glance over his posts, and once in a while something form of idiocy just jumps out.

Chris...I will "unhide" his comments to glance at them, but he usually doesn't have anything worthwhile to say. And I got tired of his masturbatory fantasies about Narad a long time ago. Though I suppose I should feel honored that I bothered him enough that he added me to the pile.

As far as phildo saying he's not johnny or anyone else...strange how they all write the same sort of comments, and all change 'nyms of people they are annoyed with. It's like watching a 2 year old stamp their feet and call everyone a poopyhead. I'm just bored with him.

Oh, right, he also doesn't understand that people who have killfiled him don't even see his comments, so he keeps "replying" to them:

“Dawn, has it occurred to you that if you ban all the people that are pointing out the holes in your posting”

Well, that is just hilarious.

#100
"Oh, right, he also doesn’t understand that people who have killfiled him don’t even see his comments, so he keeps “replying” to them:"

Narad is under STRONG DELUSION that anti-vaxxers post here for the benefit of the PAID PROVAX LOYALISTS.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you suggesting that ORAC has no other readers beyond the 10 that post here?????????????????

ORAC, you need to put in a HIT counter. That way we know if someone actually READS your blog! LOL!

Chris,

Okay, I have a warped notion of the absurd.

Me too, I just got bored with this particular buffoon.

I only glance at his inanity when I am bored or need something to laugh at. At lunch time dear hubby went to help his mother with some things at her house, only to find out she spent five thousand dollars on some device to make her kitchen water alkaline. Then to top it off she had some kind of self declared "computer expert" come to her house and removed all the security settings done my her son. Apparently this self-taught guy has more authority than a computer scientist with over thirty years experience (her son), so her wifi signal is no longer "hidden", and both its name and password are variations of her own name. To top it off he told her not to turn off her computer when she wasn't use it.

We have a feeling something very bad is going to happen to her computer. Fortunately she does not do any banking on it.

Laughing at Pheebo was what I needed after listening to dear hubby rant for twenty minutes.

Sorry about the typos and total grammar fail. Needless to say we are not terribly happy with dear hubby's mother.

Yeah, that's the stuff. The living embodiment of James Edmondson.

Then to top it off she had some kind of self declared “computer expert” come to her house and removed all the security settings done my her son.

As someone who plays "computer expert" (I'm no expert, but some people sure think I am, which is perhaps relatively true), I feel your husband's pain. The best is when people accuse you of "messing things up" and it's clear they have no clue what they're talking about.

Chris: I feel your hubby's pain. I'm not a computer expert (though I could play one on TV). But my ex killed 2 computers by opening files "sent by friends". He also nearly wiped out our bank account by opening, clicking on, and starting to fill out a "dear person who banks at our bank" email. I happened to walk in and saw what he was doing. I YANKED the power cord out of the wall and ripped him a new one. He was clueless about phishing emails. Sigh...

OH, and then there was the time he clicked on the "is your computer running slowly? Run our virus scan"...I could go on and on. He was one reason we finally bought a Mac. But I took that with me when I left him. Just hope he has learned in the years since.

As far as phildo saying he’s not johnny or anyone else…strange how they all write the same sort of comments, and all change ‘nyms of people they are annoyed with. It’s like watching a 2 year old stamp their feet and call everyone a poopyhead. I’m just bored with him.

Honestly I think phildo is looking for "suicide by mod" just to triumphantly exclaim we are all askeered of his awesomeness.

Honestly I think phildo is looking for “suicide by mod” just to triumphantly exclaim we are all askeered of his awesomeness.

To whom?

To whom?

Surely this is not the only blog blessed with his dribbles.

If he wants Respectful Insolence threads to dominate the results of Goofle searches for "Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex", that is his concern.

MI Dawn: "But my ex killed 2 computers by opening files “sent by friends”. "

Yikes! I see the reason for the "ex" bit.

We had to flat line and reload a computer once a very long time ago. It was the one I shared with my then eight year old daughter. She apparently loaded a game that came with some malware. It was the type to flash porn on the screen, and then attempt to sell you their malware remover. It was caused by a flaw in Java. People were convicted.

Daughter is now 21, and has been clued in on computer security since that incident. Also, she does not have her full real name anywhere online. She quit Facebook after they would not let keep her identity as secure as she wished.

She quit Facebook after they would not let keep her identity as secure as she wished.

A friend of mine is on FB using her first and middle names; she even managed to switch, I think, when she went on the job market. (She is something of a "radical leftist," which she thought she needed to hide or something, which I found slightly amusing, but I dunno, maybe universities do look a FB profiles and sift out radical leftists or something.)

I mean, people switch last names when they get married and so on.

DEAR READERS:

I want you to NOTICE that the REGULAR pro-vax posters are CRICKETS regarding my campaign to RESTORE THE SAFE AND COST EFFECTIVE THIMEROSAL CONTAINING MULTI-DOSE VIALS. They have said NOTHING in the way of SUPPORTING my efforts. AMAZING. And it appears that the posts about "killfiling" appeared right after I started my CAMPAIGN!

Please follow the posts of these known PRO-VAXXERS and see if they SUPPORT MY PRO-THIMEROSAL CAMPAIGN I posted at #53 and #64.
I also posted earlier on Orac's "Woman Dies of measles" rant. They have seen my posts on this MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC. WHY AREN'T THEY HELPING ME??????????? I'm clueless.

herr doktor bimler, Narad, Science Mom, MI Dawn, Mephistopheles O'Brien, JP, Krebiozen, Chris, Roger Kulp, LIz Ditz of the Great State of California

Don't Forget:
AN EXTRA $.50/ JAB TO TAKE OUT A HARMLESS SUBSTANCE THAT KEEPS VACCINES SAFE. AN INCREASED COST OF UP TO $18.4 MILLION!
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CALIFORNIA+POPULAT…

IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA
IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA!

http://www.semissourian.com/story/147068.html
“The outcome reflected the position of the World Health Organization that the small amount of thimerosal used in vaccines is safe. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics, which called for thimerosal to be removed from children’s vaccines over a decade ago, last year came out in favor of exempting the preservative from the mercury treaty.

The exemption also stemmed from a widely shared economic judgment that the cost to make and distribute thimerosal-free vaccines would be steep and couldn’t be justified by the uncertain benefits.

Richard Mwendandu, a delegate from Kenya, said African nations that expressed concerns about thimerosal agreed by the end that the preservative is still critical to vaccination programs aimed at reducing childhood deaths, and should be used until a good alternative is found. “There is no cost-effective and reliable alternative at this moment,” Mwendandu said.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/world_health_organization_approves_use_…

“Senator Elizabeth Warren: Vaccines are safe, effective & protect our children”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UlXgoQwGk

CONTINUING THE THIMEROSAL BAN MAKES CALIFORNIA LOOK RACIST AND IT MAKES IT APPEAR THAT ANTI-VAXXERS ARE TELLING THE TRUTH: THIMEROSAL CAUSES VACCINE INJURY.

Now is the time to OVERTURN THE BAN. The MANDATED VACCINE LAW passed with flying colors. THE CITIZENS KNOW ALL VACCINES ARE SAFE, INCLUDING ONES WITH FULL THIMEROSAL DOSES. NOT OVERTURNING IT GIVES A FOOTHOLD TO THE ENEMY!

CAN I COUNT ON YOU TO CALL THE CALIFORNIA ASSEMBLY MEMBERS AND PUSH FOR THIS BILL?

DOES ANYONE REMEMBER THIS?
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/clintonbodycount.htm
I do. It was started at the time the World Wide Web was up and running. The then new, web news site "World Net Daily" also covered the story:
http://www.wnd.com/1998/09/3342/
"Dr. Fahmy Malek was the Arkansas medical examiner under then-Gov.
Bill Clinton." Please read the details of this case. Notice the WND article is dated 1998.
http://www.wnd.com/1998/09/3342/#O1l0V7gZ0PEiOYHJ.99

So many CAPS, so little sense. A little boy in Spain died from diphtheria. You must be so proud you had a hand in that death.

LIZ DITZ:
I guess the citizens of THE GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA will have to take down the flags from their garage back wall:

"The Latest Restaurant in Trouble for Flying a Confederate Flag ... Is in California?"
"Woytak assures the paper she has no affinity for the flag, although it doesn't appear she's taking any proactive steps to remove it yet, either.

The hotel is 160 years old and sits in Benicia's historic district, meaning the flag is "not likely to be going anywhere soon," the Chronicle informs readers, since any changes have to go through a laborious review process with the town's historic preservation commission."
http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/06/san-francisco-confederate-flag.html
HERITAGE. ISN'T THAT WHAT THE SOUTHERNERS SAY?

Well, WHAT DID YOU EXPECT from a state that supports a RACIST Thimerosal ban?

At least CHARLESTON SOUTH CAROLINA took it down.
http://news10.com/2015/07/10/confederate-flag-is-removed-in-south-carol…

Chris: " I only glance at his inanity when I am bored or need something to laugh at"

I do similarly: I usually skim the comments and zoom in if I should alight upon something salient or awful- or if it's someone I want to read. When it is a well known troll/ altie I may go past the first several lines. Unfortunately all CAPS diverts our attention to particular phrases but it makes skimming easier. I sporadically cap certain words myself for emphasis and de-cap others so they don't stick out too much.

I find that I need to skim places like AoA or Jake's cesspit - TMR is rather quiet these days. Their comments are getting even worse- if that's possible,

@ JP:

I know two excellent women ( my cousin's widow and daughter) who have been aggravated and harassed through facebook- thus they -actually, she, the younger- got rid of her page.

I limit my internet exposure to places like RI and use two of my four names. I have only a few business related connections under my full name which I had/ have no control over at all.

Unfortunately, well after choosing my 'nym,, I learned that there is a fine woman in Tasmania who uses the same as it is her full name. Oh well. I hope no one harasses her because of my activities because she seems to be a nice person, helping scouts, doing Highland Dance and surviving cancer.

Perhaps I should have gone with 'Walter Howard' - or whatever my second last name is.

I know two excellent women ( my cousin’s widow and daughter) who have been aggravated and harassed through facebook- thus they -actually, she, the younger- got rid of her page.

Yeah, I have considered getting rid of my own on several occasions, usually because of stupid, aggravating posts on the part of relatives or people I grew up with, and ensuing arguments. I wouldn't say I've been harassed much online, though, but that's probably because I keep a fairly low profile. Or maybe it's the crazy look in my eyes, I dunno, I don't get harassed much "IRL" these days either.

Ultimately, though, I have a lot of contacts through FB, people whose email addresses or phone numbers I might not have, including friends in other countries, etc. It's also useful for things like saying, "Hey friends, I am going through a really bad patch right now and sort of losing it, please invite me out for coffee or beer or movies or whatever if you are in town."

SPEAKING OF CHARLESTON, S.C......

Guess who one of its PROMINENT citizens is?
None other than ANTONY MERCK. Yes, he is the son of George W. Merck, former vice president of Merck & Co., the pharmaceutical manufacturer.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/30/obituaries/george-w-merck-65-retired-…

His $4 Million + home is a PRIME HISTORIC CHARLESTON residence:
http://www.preservationsociety.org/program_award_detail.asp?caID=89
"George Eveleigh was a prosperous deerskin trader in Charles Town when he purchased a lot lying across Vanderhorst Creek just outside the former city wall line. The creek was filled and is known today as Water Street, and with this filling Church Street was extended to White Point. Eveleigh sold the property about ten years later to John Bull, a wealthy planter in Prince William Parish. The Bull family later subdivided the rear of the lot facing Meeting Street, where they subsequently constructed 34 Meeting Street. A later purchaser of 39 Church Street was the 18th-century chemist and naturalist Jean Louis Polony, a Santo Domingan refugee."
http://charleston.pastperfect-online.com/33491cgi/mweb.exe?request=reco…
The Bull family mentioned happen to be some of Toto's ancestors!
"Santo Domingan refugee" refers to the whites who fled what is now HAITI after the African slaves
revolted and took it over.

I have six brothers and sisters; the spousal unit has six brothers and sisters.

This is the main reason I am not on Facebook.

Denise: "Unfortunately all CAPS diverts our attention to particular phrases but it makes skimming easier."

Ah, that is why Toto's screed read like a disjointed stream of consciousness. Though I think it would read like that without the CAPS.

"I know two excellent women ( my cousin’s widow and daughter) who have been aggravated and harassed through facebook- thus they -actually, she, the younger- got rid of her page."

My younger son used is actual last name on Facebook. There are two people on this planet with his first name and odd last name, him and a computer guy/sheep farmer in New Zealand. My son was easy to find.

Because of his Facebook page he was stalked in high school by a young lady living in a near by town. She did actually call to apologize, realizing that her behavior facilitated by social media was not cool.

Though he was also stalked by teenage girls in high school in real life. One young lady took a liking to my tall skinny son and actually created a Facebook page dedicated to his skinny chest (which was often covered in a vest). Which at one time included a picture of the stairs to our front door.

I did not know that when I answered that front door and encountered three giggling teenage girls asking for my son. I don't remember if he was home that time, but at least one time he was home and they took a picture of his cat. Apparently they saw what bus he took to get home and got on the next one. They took to where they thought it was close to our home. Then by total coincidence they found one of his friends working in a nearby food establishment, and he explained exactly where we lived.

It was a weird time. (and I save the pages of that Facebook page to my computer just for chuckles and pictures.. of course since they have all graduated from college it no longer exists)

And yet with all the stalking of my smart fairly handsome tall skinny blond son (I am biased, by the way), he has never had a girlfriend for more than a year. Apparently being an uber nerd is a turn off. Yet, they all adore him and even old girlfriends have tried to set him up with dates. They adore him, but he is just not "the one."

shay, one of the reasons I am not on Facebook is to avoid the acrimony from my sisters. Or more accurately my sister and stepsister, who are just one year apart in age. One is very conservative, and the other is very liberal. I prefer to avoid those fireworks.

@Chris
"Toto’s screed read like a disjointed stream of consciousness."

Is this what you refer to?

IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AFRICA
IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CALIFORNIA!

http://www.semissourian.com/story/147068.html
“The outcome reflected the position of the World Health Organization that the small amount of thimerosal used in vaccines is safe. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics, which called for thimerosal to be removed from children’s vaccines over a decade ago, last year came out in favor of exempting the preservative from the mercury treaty.

The exemption also stemmed from a widely shared economic judgment that the cost to make and distribute thimerosal-free vaccines would be steep and couldn’t be justified by the uncertain benefits.

Richard Mwendandu, a delegate from Kenya, said African nations that expressed concerns about thimerosal agreed by the end that the preservative is still critical to vaccination programs aimed at reducing childhood deaths, and should be used until a good alternative is found. “There is no cost-effective and reliable alternative at this moment,” Mwendandu said.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/world_health_organization_approves_use_…

“Senator Elizabeth Warren: Vaccines are safe, effective & protect our children”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79UlXgoQwGk

DO YOU SUPPORT THE CALIFORNIA THIMEROSAL BAN?

ONLY IN THE ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD
would ignorants post to a BLOG called "Respectful Insolence" about FACEBOOK.
HA HA HA HA HA!
Try getting some REAL friends.

#123
SPEAKING OF CHARLESTON, S.C……
Have you ever heard of Charles Cotesworth PINCKNEY?
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_founding_fathers…
BTW, all three of the white guys on the page are Toto's ancestor relatives...
Here's his portrait:
http://www.history.army.mil/books/revwar/ss/pinckneycc.htm
Here's his wife's portrait:
https://americangallery.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/henry-benbridge-1743-1…
Here's his wife's brother
http://www.geni.com/people/Arthur-Middleton-Signer-of-the-Declaration-o…
The Pinckney family owned slaves. After the Civil War it was not unusual for the freed African enslaved to take the name of their former enslavers as their own last name.

"One of nine people killed in Charleston, South Carolina was an African American paster Reverend Clementa Pinckney. When I saw his last name, I wondered whether his relatives were African slaves who grew indigo for Eliza Lucas Pinckney."
https://underthebreadfruittree.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/south-carolina-…
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT REV. PINCKNEY WAS A SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR.

#123
Looks like he was in Charleston that fateful day - the same day Nation of Islam leaders joined with Kennedy and anti-SB277 leaders.
https://www.facebook.com/antony.merck
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Seekings/170408565760

#123

It looks like he was in Charleston on that fateful day...the same day that Nation of Islam publicly supported Kennedy and antivaxxers against SB277.
https://www.facebook.com/antony.merck
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Seekings/170408565760

#117

Wow! Hillary was there on that day as well. In fact, according to the Washington Post, Pinckney left a Senate Finance Committee meeting early in order to attend a speech given by Clinton in North Charleston. She even canceled a fundraiser and stayed to attend the funeral.
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150625/PC16/150629546

Within the same week, this story broke, but the murder story overshadowed it:
http://www.abcnews4.com/story/29501296/officials-release-more-details-o…

"The jet crashed into woods around the privately owned Lewisfield Plantation, an estate dating to 1750."
http://south-carolina-plantations.com/berkeley/lewisfield.html
The last owner of the plantation was from a well-known political family, State Senator Rembert C. Dennis. Like Pinkney, Senator Dennis was a member (Chairman) of the "powerful Senate Finance Committee."
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r102:S02JY2-0053:
"[From the Charleston Post & Courier, June 23, 1992]
Dennis' Death ``End of Era''

This state has had a handful of legislators who have wielded more power than most governors. Rembert Coney Dennis, the man who for so long was known as the senator from Berkeley, was one of them. Indeed, he was the last of them.

When the young lawyer from Moncks Corner first went to the Legislature in 1939, each of the 46 counties had one senator, regardless of its size. In those days, county government was weak and run by the local Legislative Delegation. At that point, the senator and House members were elected countywide.

But with rare exception it was the senator who was the dominant political figure in his county, particularly in the rural areas that some said resembled baronies. No local legislation passed nor any key appointment was made without the senator's blessing. The goal was to become virtually unbeatable in one's county in order to build up seniority in the Statehouse, and rural senators generally were more successful at that than their urban counterparts.

Rembert Dennis knew very well how the system worked before he entered the Statehouse. His father and grandfather had been in the Senate before him. It's been noted that had his father not been shot on Moncks Corner's Main Street and had an elder brother not died a year later, young Rembert might have become a doctor rather than a lawyer-legislator. But it's hard to imagine that anything would have suited him better.

Within five years of being elected to the House, he was occupying his father's old seat in the Senate. And he learned well from such masters as the senator from Marion, L. Marion Gressette, the long-time chairman of the Judiciary Committee; and Barnwell's legendary powerhouses, House Speaker Solomon Blatt and President Pro Tempore of the Senate Edgar Brown.

For 50 years, Sen. Dennis traveled from Moncks Corner to Columbia, working his way up to become chairman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee and the acknowledged budget expert. In those days governors couldn't succeed themselves. If they were to be at all successful, they had to have the cooperation of a few key, veteran legislators. Many factors have diffused that power in recent years, including changes in the method of election."

SIGNERS OF THE U.S CONSTITUTION

South Carolina

John Rutledge
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Charles Pinckney
Pierce Butler

All Toto's ancestors.
Fictional "Rhett Butler" are both Toto's ancestor's names.

THE TRUE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN HIDDEN.

Liz Ditz!
Here's a documentary you won't want to miss on THE GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=929&v=bwgopN9lFpg
OOPS! I forgot. Not supposed to use the "H" word......

#117

In 1999 President Bill Clinton nominated Antony Merck to serve as commissioner of the Federal Maritime Commission (which he accepted). The FMC “regulates water born foreign and domestic offshore commerce, and assumes fair, equitable and open international seaborne trade between the U.S. and other nations” (including China).
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/WCPD-1999-11-15/pdf/WCPD-1999-11-15-Pg2368…
https://www.dpiusa.com/archives/signals/991203.html
"Mr. Merck is a trustee and Treasurer of the Merck Family Fund, a private foundation based in Milton, Massachusetts that supports non-profit organizations dedicated to environmental and urban community issues. In 1998, the Merck Family Fund awarded a total of more than USD 2 million in grants."

#117
I think Charleston could use some of this now.....
"Transforming Our Communities is a grant-making program designed “to empower low-income young people of color” to become “social justice leaders” who can effectively use “community organizing” techniques to bring about “systemic change in urban communities.”"
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/funderprofile.asp?fndid=5386&categor…

4 comments in a row by babbling Toto. All nicely blocked. So, based on previous history, I'm going to guess what they contain:

at least 1 has pharma shill comments. At least 1 babbles about thimerasol. At least one mentions someone either early settler or famous or rich and claims to be related to that person. (one day I'm going to play "who's got more famous/important people in our family" with Toto...I'm pretty sure I'll win.). And at least one accuses the minions of being for forced vaccination.

So, fellow minions...I won't look and I'm logging off. Let me know how I did!

I couldn't be bothered to read it. From what I did see you did not miss much, just a bunch of all CAPS nonsense.

Oh Toto, Toto, Toto. But repeal of thimerosal ban is a GOOD THING.

Since it was banned vaccines did not stop causing autism. Well at least your ilk still blathers about autism being a vaccine injury. But if there is no thimerosal in them you guys can't cry about evil mercury. Not that this stopped anyone from doing so, but still the logic is sound.

You guys should be all for adding thimerosal to vaccines, since then you'll have something to cry about!

And now we can wait for Toto to ignore anything I said past the first sentence and repost his stupid screed about GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA and WHAT IS GOOD FOR AFRICA IS GOOD FOR CALIFORNIA.

Actually it now occured to me that Toto is being pretty racist about the whole thing. Implication that he does not care about "savages" in Africa being shot with thimerosal as long as California is free is as disgusting as it is divorced from reality. Antivaxxer being an appaling human being, who'd guess.

MI Dawn batted 500 -- these two were correct: "At least 1 babbles about thimerasol. At least one mentions someone either early settler or famous or rich and claims to be related to that person." If a pharma shill mention was there it was subtle, and I didn't see any mandatory vaccination, just the latest drivel on bringing back thimerasol.

Chris, JP and shay:

I have totally avoided facebook myself for many reasons, amongst them...

I keep in touch with my dozens of cousins who stretch in a great white band across oceans and continents ( at one point from LA to Russia and occasionally, Japan- now, only to Belgium and Germany) via cousins.net a/k/a the telephone, mail service, a little e-mail. Most of them are hilarious and often have interesting jobs and spouses/ partners/ children.

I do no business on facebook

I mentioned my relatives, P and K, who were probably bothered by maladapts because they live in a wealthy town and said maladapts knew that my cousin/ uncle left them with money- they both have careers and little time or tolerance of nonsense.

One of my gentlemen (wrongly) went on facebook to link up with men he attended school with but has had to deal with many people- most of whom he doesn't know- wanting to friend him. In addition, he does contact a relative, who lives far away, whose entire life is on facebook- including RL friends from 50 years ago who maintain the 'current' gossip about people from those en-darkened times. I have been so privileged to read their ...um... material and am amazed at its pedestrian, parochial, run-of-the-mill banality and lack of reality testing and insight. But that's just me.

AND obviously, I read anti-vax propaganda/ girltalk/ self-aggrandising BS which is enough for me to blow a gasket in my PFC- if PFCs indeed have gaskets.

I have a Facebook account to check other agencies' accounts (whence I occasionally swipe and send things to our PIO with recommendations that they go on OUR Facebook account)* but the thought of having to read what my families are up to holds no appeal.

If you want me to know what you're doing, email me or pick up the phone.

*(our fiscal officer, however, is still not convinced that the popularity of KDHE's Fred the Emergency Preparedness Dog is enough reason to let me buy a German Shepherd for my program).

If you want me to know what you’re doing, email me or pick up the phone.

Email is for Olds though, or at least that's what my students tell me. Hardly anybody I know my age (or younger) uses email much for correspondence, although it's my preferred method.

I'm weird about the phone; I have a pretty small list of "contacts" in my phone, and phone calls, as far as I'm concerned, should be at least an hour long, take place in the evening or at night, and involve alcohol. Possibly this is to mimic being in person as much as possible.

I like the phone but limit its usage.
HOWEVER I enjoy sending various cohorts postcards that I make up myself from photos I take. They LOVE it.

-btw-
My most admired postcards recently
- extreme close up of the inside of an orange lily
- fog moving in over water
- tribute plaque in memory of Oscar Wilde
- tile depicting a tropical fish found in a ladies' room

y mucho mas!
-

As I've said in previous comments on other topics, arguing with a antivaxx person is so difficult because the denial borders on (or is fully within the realm of) delusion in the clinical sense of the term. Any contrary fact is simply turned into part of the delusion itself. If you are an agency that has produced a study showing the unequivocal safety of vaccines, then...they must have gotten to you too! Look no further than the comments from Toto "the Rock". Anything even remotely resembling reasonable discourse there?

JP -I'm 60. I think that counts as olds.

JP -I’m 60. I think that counts as olds.

60 isn't that old; I used to think it was, but now I'm pushing 30 myself and the years go by faster all the time, of course.

I meant that most of my cousins are my age or younger (some are older), so they aren't likely to use email. Ditto a lot of my friends in Europe.

Another nice thing about Facebook is that I usually just get a "burner" phone when I'm in Europe, so it's nice to land in Krakow (or wherever) and just send out a FB announcement asking for people to send an "SMSka" so I have their numbers.

Actually it now occured to me that Toto is being pretty racist about the whole thing. Implication that he does not care about “savages” in Africa being shot with thimerosal as long as California is free is as disgusting as it is divorced from reality. Antivaxxer being an appaling human being, who’d guess.

Yes. God save the state of California. The precious snowflakes, they are very, very speshul. Way more speshul than the browns who go ooga booga and jump out from behind bushes, that's for sure.

(you have no idea how much this transparent racism and classism makes me RAGE)

– tile depicting a tropical fish found in a ladies’ room

Denice, where does one tend to find tropical fish visiting a ladies' room? How do they know which room is the ladies'?

@ Bill Price:

Ha. I wrote one of those sentences that leads one down the garden path to error...

At any rate, the fish was DEPICTED on the tile on the wall of the ladies' room.
AND it was about 10 inches square
the tile that is, not the fish.

– tile depicting a tropical fish found in a ladies’ room

Oooo Denice, you gave me an excellent idea...I have some lovely photos of the really interesting loos in Southern France I happened to have visited.

Okay, my children think they're really cool.

Well, this is FASCINATING.
.Antony is on the College of Charleston Board of Directors for Friends of the Library. Many of the original business records and correspondence of the original plantation/slave owner families and slave/opium trader families, including the Middletons and DeWolfs, are deposited here.
https://blogs.cofc.edu/rosenthall/files/2015/03/Spring2010_Discovery-1x…
Antony earned his law degree from the University of South Carolina law school.
http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/collection/data/6642466
James De Wolf had family "agents" based in Charleston. Anna Elizabeth de Wolf was the daughter of one of the family "business" members.
Here is the descendant who "outed" James De Wolf:
http://masshumanities.org/about/news/s08-tot/
These two books give many MORE details. THEY SHOULD BE REQUIRED READING!
http://www.amazon.com/James-Dewolf-Rhode-Island-Slave/dp/1626194793
http://www.amazon.com/Complicity-Promoted-Prolonged-Profited-Slavery/dp…

#139
The Smith of Lie
"Since it was banned vaccines did not stop causing autism."

Could you please post your source of data for this? I'd like to include it in my lobby to OVERTURN THE CALIFORNIA THIMEROSAL BAN. Please include data showing the added thimerosal dose in the yearly flu vaccines which were mandated about the same time the thimerosal was "diminished" in the other vaccines. Also, is it true that aluminum replaced thimerosal? What are the safety studies on that? I WANT VERY CONVINCING, WELL DOCUMENTED DATA. That is what persuades politicians.
THANKS!

1860 Charleston SC Slaveholders Listed Alphabetically
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ajac/sccharlestonalpha.htm
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=h.p.+russell+charl…
This family name was on the list:
"Pinckney, B. G., 5, Charleston Ward 6, page 479A
Pinckney, C. C., 9, Charleston Ward 4, page 440B
Pinckney, C. C., 85, St. James Santee 299B
Pinckney, E., 7, Charleston Ward 2, page 413A
Pinckney, Est. Thos., 97, St. James Santee 291B
Pinckney, H. L. Jr., 6, Charleston Ward 2, page 417A
Pinckney, H. L., 7, Charleston Ward 2, page 417A
Pinckney, Harriett, 11, Charleston Ward 3, page 435B
Pinckney, R. G. Jr., 2, Charleston Ward 5, page 466A
Pinckney, Robert G., 8, Charleston Ward 5, page 466A
Pinckney, Thomas, 2, St. James Santee 299A
Pinkney, Robert, 8, St. Phillip, 271A"
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ajac/sccharlestonalph…

In case you missed it, Toto posted this information right after the Charleston murders were publicized:
http://www.ibtimes.com/what-drugs-was-dylann-roof-suboxone-powerful-nar…
And
https://www.rb.com/reckittbenckiserbuysbackremainingrightstosuboxonesub…
I wonder why the MSM hasn't mentioned it since?
It's all about the FLAG........

Do you think people are beginning to worry about the economy?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vine-Grapevine-by-Tiffany-Asparagus-Serving-For…

Well, this is an interesting COINCIDENCE. Both Antony Merck and U.S South Carolina Congressman Trey Gowdy received their J.D. degree from the University of South Carolina School of Law. Have you been following the Bengazi hearings, featuring Representative Gowdy? I don't think HILLARY CLINTON is too fond of him. He has certainly put her in the hot seat!

"Gowdy is questioning people in Hillary’s inner circle right now – behind closed doors – while quietly building up a case against Clinton. He knows the law and has no cheap, politically driven timeline. This is why Hillary Clinton has to be beyond scared of Trey Gowdy."
Read more: http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/hillary-clinton-scared-trey-gowdy-be…
https://sharylattkisson.com/benghazi-committee-hillary-clinton-made-fal…

Provaxxers:
Just in case you missed this...
"Pro-HPV Vaccine Doc Omits Financial Ties in Medical Journal"
https://sharylattkisson.com/pro-hpv-vaccine-doc-omits-financial-ties-in…

Two weeks without a Weekly Fishwrap from Ohlmsted since the screw-NOI item, yes?

^ Ah, I dropped the "D'" but failed to do the same with the 'h'.

"Two weeks without a Weekly Fishwrap from Ohlmsted since the screw-NOI item, yes?"

Well, NO. It was more like THREE WEEKS. LOL!
I can't believe you brought THAT up. HA!

#161
YOU ARE BUSTED NARAD. Or is it ORAC????????
Your above post was referring to a post by Toto THAT HASN'T BEEN MADE PUBLIC YET. Which alphabet soup org do you and Orac (or Orac and Orac) work for?
So Orac's game is to have a fake blog that all the pharma-shills are hooked up to (data sharing) and he gives them a cheat sheet of my post so they can scurry and try to come up with some sort of answer.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ! All that fuss for silly little TOTO?

BTW, did you see the news story that someone STOLE Dorothy's RUBY slippers?
http://time.com/3954667/ruby-slippers-reward/
For Real! It's probably just as well....HOLLYWOOD MOGULS KNEW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SILVER. Gold road, silver shoes. The SILVERITES would fight the banksters with U.S. minted SILVER COIN. Here's more:
http://www.thepowerhour.com/news4/wizard_of_oz_what_it_means.htm

Um, isn't this a little LATE?
"The oldest rescuer was 100 and others were in their 80s and 90s, some in wheelchairs or on crutches."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150712/eu--poland-holocaust_heroes-c0…
If your ancestors married conversos, does that count?

Here's another COLLEGE OF CHARLESTON "Friends of the Library" member, David J. Cohen:

"Cohen is past-president and current member of the South Carolina Library Association and has served on the advisory board of the Gale Corporation and as chairperson of the Southeastern Library Network’s board of directors, treasurer for the Jewish Historical Society of South Carolina, executive committee member for the Library Directors Forum and chair of the Council on Library and Information Resources’ College Library Committee. He is a longstanding member of the American Library Association and currently serves as a board member for the Gibbes Museum of Art in Charleston."
http://president.cofc.edu/documents/bio-cohen.pdf

I wonder if he is related to Toto's ancestors' plantation owner neighbor on the Ashly River?

"Cohen set up his own sons on nearby plantations that rivaled some of the greatest in the South. Right around Lafayette’s visit in 1824, Mordecai Cohen bought Soldier’s Retreat, a large estate of over 1,000 acres overlooking the Ashley River for his son David. By the 1830s, David or “Davy” Cohen had taken over the estate in his own name and held slaves who worked his fields, emptied his slops and raised his children."
Read more: http://forward.com/culture/205455/slaves-of-charleston/#ixzz3fj9O2Sku

#166
Scroll down to "THE ASHLEY RIVER 23"
http://archive.org/stream/jstor-27569475/27569475_djvu.txt

WELL THIS WAS UNEXPECTED:
The 16th United States Attorney General (from Charleston), Hugh Swinton Legaré, was VACCINE INJURED! He also earned a law degree from the University of South Carolina!

"Partly due to his inability to share in the amusements of his fellows as a result of a DEFORMITY due to a VACCINE POISIONING suffered before he was five (the poison permanently arresting the growth and development of his legs), Legaré was an eager student and was president of the Clariosophic Society at the College of South Carolina (now University of South Carolina at Columbia), from which he graduated in 1814 with the highest rank in his class and with a reputation for scholarship and eloquence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_S._Legaré

#168
AMAZING!
It turns out that Toto's ancestor, Martha Caroline Swinton, was his AUNT! She made waves back in her day. SLAVES IN THE FAMILY author Edward Ball devotes an entire chapter to her.
See ch. 14, page 295....
http://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Family-Edward-Ball/dp/0374265828/ref=sr_1_…

One of my "snowflakes" told me a great JOKE:

"I like slaves the way I like my coffee............FREE"

North marries South...2 slave trading/plantation owning families.
The Middleton-DeWolf mansion, aka "Hey Bonnie Hall" located in BRISTOL, RHODE ISLAND:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xcQ7AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA3&lpg=RA1-PA3&d…
Nathaniel Russell Middleton was a former President of the COLLEGE OF CHARLESTON. Arthur Middleton, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, was Nathaniel's great uncle. His wife was the great niece of James DeWolf.
http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/41690493-james-dewolf-and-the-rhod…