After SB 277, medical exemptions to vaccine mandates for sale, courtesy of Dr. Bob Sears

My topic yesterday was When doctors betray their profession. In my post, I talked about some very unethical doctors representing tobacco companies in lawsuits against them seeking compensation for death and injury due to smoking, as well as to doctors and scientists peddling pseudoscience and quackery representing claimants in the Autism Omnibus action several years ago, in essence supporting the scientifically unsupported idea that vaccines cause autism. The reason I brought this up was to show doctors behaving badly in "conventional" and not-so-conventional medical-legal situations. Unfortunately, that's not all the physician shenanigans that go on. Indeed, a reader of mine (who wishes to remain anonymous) attended a recent vaccine "open house" in Culver City, CA on July 16 and provided me with an account of the goings-on there. This particular antivaccine event was remarkable because it featured a frequent topic of this blog, antivaccine pediatrician Robert "Dr. Bob" Sears. It was a meeting advertised on Dr. Bob's Facebook page a week ago, in which he promised:

We'll discuss how SB 277 will affect your family next year, what you can do about it, and what efforts are being made to overturn the new law. Learn what your options are and understand which children will be exempt from the new vaccine requirements. Join me, Eric Gladen, Melissa Floyd, and others for an eventful informative discussion and Q and A. See you there.

Dr. Bob, you remember, is famous for writing a "skeptical" vaccine book beloved by the antivaccine movement. More recently, he's been a vocal critic of SB 277, even going so far as to take a cue from the whackjob wing of the antivaccine movement and sarcastically suggest that its passage would lead to, in essence, nonvaccinating parents and children being forced to wear the vaccine equivalent of the yellow Star of David that the Nazis forced Jews to wear for easy identification and ostracization. Yes, Dr. Bob went full Godwin over SB 277, after a history of blowing the antivaccine dog whistles such as "freedom" and "parental rights."

SB 277 is, of course, the recently passed California law that will eliminate religious and personal belief exemptions (PBEs) to school vaccine mandates. It is a law that I had never thought possible before, particularly in California given that California is ground zero for the antivaccine movement in the US, particularly affluent areas in the Bay area, Hollywood and Santa Monica, and Dr. Bob's neck of the woods in Capistrano Beach, just north of San Diego, where Dr. Bob caters to just such a clientele. Assuming the notes I was given are accurate (and I have no reason to believe they are not), it shows Dr. Bob behaving just as badly as any of those tobacco company expert witnesses trying to deny that it was most likely tobacco that caused head and neck cancer in plantiffs suing tobacco companies. Basically, Dr. Bob gave a workshop to parents on how to keep on avoiding vaccinating while at the same time making, in essence, a pitch for business from nonvaccinating parents looking for a physician to write a letter recommending a medical exemption. This should not be surprising, given that Dr. Bob has of late been letting his antivaccine freak flag fly more. Indeed, at the recent conservative/libertarian confab known as FreedomFest a week and a half ago, Dr. Bob debated Ron Bailey on the issue of whether vaccines should be mandatory. Basically, he played Julian Whitaker's role from a similar debate hosted by FreedomFest three years ago; i.e., the antivaccine side.

In any event, the antivaccine town hall in Culver City started with a long PowerPoint presentation full of antivaccine misinformation and errors that was over an hour long. Dr. Bob didn't give this presentation, and my reader didn't say who did. It doesn't matter much, anyway, because Dr. Bob was clearly the star of the show and spoke next. After stating how much he hates the law and acknowledging how much all the attendees hate the law, he got into his main topic, namely how to comply with the law without vaccinating. From the notes I'm adapting and turning into my usual jaunty prose, his talk was chock full of misinformation and disingenuousness. You can get some idea of the sorts of things Dr. Bob said by checking out this Facebook post from three weeks ago. His talk basically stuck to the same outline, with some additions that perhaps he didn't want to put in writing.

First, if you don't think Dr. Bob is antivaccine, consider this. He started out by referring to autism as a "known side effect" of vaccines. It is not, and he knows it. If he doesn't know it, he is utterly incompetent in evaluating evidence or was cynically pandering to his audience. Take your pick. He also told the audience that the American Academy of Pediatrics will issue guidelines about medical exemptions, but that it will be "much narrower than" what he does. (Surprise! Surprise!) Anyone want to guess whether he'll be even more looser in issuing exemptions than Dr. Jay Gordon will be? My guess is that he will, as Dr. Jay seems unwilling to stretch things too far beyond what is medically justifiable, at least comparatively speaking.

Among the tidbits of information Dr. Bob dropped on his audience were:

  • A description of an effort to amend the law to allow chiropractors and naturopaths to issue medical exemptions. I know antivaccinationists tried to get that slipped into SB 277 and failed. One can only hope the legislature doesn't fall for that one. If you think Dr. Bob will give an exemption to virtually anyone who wants one, just let chiropractors and naturopaths write exemptions based on "aggregate toxicity" or something like that.
  • A suggestion that parents seek out a DO because, or so Dr. Bob thinks, they tend to be more "open minded" than MDs. Personally, this hasn't been my experience, at least not in the US, but I don't know many DO pediatricians or primary care docs. One of the best surgical intensivists I ever knew was a DO, as is one of the premier phase I cancer clinical trialists in the country.
  • Another suggestion that parents seek out physicians in solo or small private practices rather than larger groups. The reason for this one to me is obvious. Larger groups tend to have more explicitly codified practice guidelines.

Aligning himself with his audience, Dr. Bob stated "We have to work on the way we have been perceived—we have been maligned." The "we," of course, are parents who attend sessions given by antivaccine doctors on how to comply with SB 277 and still refuse to vaccinate; i.e., antivaccinationists.

Here's where Dr. Bob got into the nitty-gritty of telling parents just how they can do that. Remember that the law doesn't take effect until the 2016-2017 school year. So, according to Dr. Bob, here are the ways to get around the law other than home schooling. The first method is to et an Individualized Education Program (IEP) that specifies regular classroom time. For those who have no experience with them, let me briefly explain. IEPs are mandated by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) for children with special needs. If a child receives special educations services, he must have an IEP that includes a description of how the child is doing, the child's specific annual education goals, specific special education supports and services that the school will provide to help the child reach those goals, modifications and accommodations the school will provide to help the child make progress, and other information. To comply with federal law, SB 277 specifically stipulates that the law "does not prohibit a pupil who qualifies for an individualized education program, pursuant to federal law and Section 56026 of the Education Code, from accessing any special education and related services required by his or her individualized education program." So you can see where Dr. Bob was dishonestly going. In fact, he was quite explicit. He recommended that parents seek an IEP, even for "minimal speech delay or learning issue" when the child is 2 or 3 years old so that they have it later and will be "protected" from SB 277 for the entire child's school career. This is gaming the system at its most blatant.

Naturally, the other option is a medical exemption. Dr. Bob, as did Dr. Jay before him, characterized whether or not a medical exemption is granted as being "completely up to the opinion of the doctor," which unfortunately is basically true. This led him to recommend "seeking out open-minded doctors," doctors who, apparently, agree with his non-evidence-based reasons for not vaccinating, including:

  • Prior vaccine reaction in child, sibling, parent, or more distant relative (protected by mention of "family history" in SB277)
  • Family history of autoimmune disease. He added: "And everyone has autoimmune disease in their family." (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, say no more!) The audience laughed appreciatively. He went on: "So an openminded doctor could use a family history of vitiligo, celiac disease, autoimmune thyroid disease, or other disease on to support a medical exemption."
  • Autism, learning disorders, and ADHD
  • Allergies, esp if more severe
  • Other chronic conditions

Of course, none of these are evidence-based reasons except for a personal prior severe reaction to a previous vaccine or a severe allergy to a vaccine component (which would only be valid as a reason not to use that vaccine). Such reactions or allergies in family members don't count, although unfortunately "family history" was placed into the law as a potential reason to grant a medical exemption. Given that Dr. Bob appears poised and ready to start passing out medical exemptions like candy, it's not surprising that he mentioned the state medical board; it's also one part of his message that's not in his Facebook post on the subject. In brief, he told the audience that he had spoken to someone at the California Board of Medicine and been told that to date "they have not investigated any doctor for writing medical exemptions." He stated they could, but to get involved they would need someone to file a complaint about a specific case. Yes, clearly Dr. Bob has thought about this issue and made preparations to cover his posterior, to the point where he apparently believes that if the board investigates, "nobody would get into trouble, they would just void the exemption." Personally, I wouldn't be so sure of that, but apparently Dr. Bob is sure enough to be telling parents this, even adding, "There might be people out to get me, but not the Medical Board."

Not yet, perhaps. Here's hoping that can be changed.

Next up, Dr. Bob talked strategy, asking that audience members not try to get a medical exemption if they have other options. Indeed, he even asked them to "save those for the people who are not grandfathered in; wait until your 3rd grader is about to be a 7th grader before seeking an exemption." What he meant by this is as follows. Under SB 277, exemptions are good until certain "checkpoint" years, which typically occur when a child first enrolls in a new school (no matter what age), when a child reaches kindergarten, and when a child reaches 7th grade. Any child who already has an exemption (medical or PBE) at the beginning of the 2016-2017 school year will be able to keep that exemption until the next "checkpoint" year. So if a parent gets a PBE for her child entering kindergarten in 2016, that exemption would be good until the child reaches seventh grade or moves to another school. He also discussed taking advantage of "conditional entry" in order to spread vaccines out over years. "Conditional entry" means that a child who hasn't met all the vaccine requirements can still be enrolled as long as there is a plan to eventually complete required vaccinations, which usually requires a note from a doctor outlining the plan. Dr. Bob actually advised dragging this process our over months or even years, only getting vaccines when the school absolutely insists on it, and hoping the school is too busy to call, saying, "You might not get by with this in a regular public school, so try charters and small private schools—seek those schools out." To be honest, I'm not sure about that; I'd guess it might be easier to get lost in the shuffle of bureaucracy in a large public school and thus drag things out.

After Dr. Bob's talk people lined up to ask him questions, may of which were a about whether condition X would allow him to grant a medical exemption. My reader reported that he said yes to several, including conditions like celiac disease in a relative, vague "neurodevelopmental issue" in a sibling, having a "grandfather who got diabetes after the pneumonia shot" (my jaw dropped when I read this one in the account), a mother with vitiligo (ditto), and other equally ridiculous reasons. He only hesitated once, when a parent who described his daughter getting "recurrent mouth ulcers" after a vaccine. For this one he said he'd have to discuss it in further detail at an office visit.

Of course he would.

After the main meeting broke up, there was a smaller group of parents still asking Dr. Bob questions, his answers to some of which were overheard. For instance, he was asked how much an office visit costs (his answer: $180) and whether he took insurance (his answer: no, other than TriCare). At one point, a woman approached and told Dr. Bob that her pediatrician whom she otherwise liked would not issue an exemption, asking if he would see her for a one-time visit. His response? "I would be happy to provide that service." He also confirmed that a one-time medical exemption visit is $180 and that he'd be willing to issue such an exemption and send the child back to his primary pediatrician. When asked whether that was a conflict of interest, Dr. Bob was taken aback, reacting with genuine surprise and answering, "Do you expect me to see them for free?" According to my reader, Dr. Bob seemed genuinely not to understand the point of the question. At another time, he seemed to try to defend himself by pointing out how infectious diseases are bad, that he wrote about how bad they are in his book as well as how vaccines prevent them. When asked why he did not mention any of this to the audience, he responded, "This is about politics, I do talk about that to other audiences."

Sure. I'll bet he does.

Three weeks ago, I asked the question, Will SB 277 enrich antivaccine doctors? The answer is clearly yes, particularly for Dr. Bob Sears. From my perspective, he's basically offering to sell medical exemptions to parents for $180 a pop, and he couldn't be more blatant about what he's doing if he tried. Indeed, I'm surprised just how closely my reader's report aligns tightly with Dr. Bob's advice posted on his Facebook page. The only differences were his more jocular manner and his demonstration that he's thought about how to issue exemptions for sale without having the California Board of Medicine come after him. As far as I'm concerned, he's become just like doctors who run prescription mills or sell prescriptions for medical marijuana. He has no honor.

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Wow Orac. Just finished reading your one-sided BS with closed comment section that's obviously been scrubbed concerning an earlier Assembly Bill that was heralded as AOK because it put the "informed" into "informed consent".

And now here we are, same jackal advocating for outright medical tyranny and no consent whatsoever along with the usual run of smear to discredit the many doctors that state the obvious concerns with shoddy government shots.

Most of the real "quacks" like the vile "Dr. Dick Pan" suffer cognitive dissonance in that their usual "my body my choice" position only seems to work if there's a hapless and helpless passenger on board to be brutally sacrificed for "greater good".

Even if it makes really cute and adorable kids, a semen injection less consent is still only one thing. Even if for some imagined "greater good" by the unproven notion "herd immunity", shoddy government shots less consent is also rape.

Whatever you believe your credentials might be, you're sure not my doctor and I'll be giving you shots before you apply the slightest pressure for me or any loved ones to accept yours.

If in the future you'd like to be informed so that you can blather more intelligently, do the research whether by reading from something beyond the AMA and CDC endorsed list of propaganda or via a playlist I prepared just for you:

https://youtu.be/K1m3TjokVU4?list=PLVzkiC8oZ1g6R9akaiOdScdaK8DITW6MS

Before you dismiss all by checking your list of "smeared as quacks" consider exploring the content. If you're not as intellectually dishonest as I suspect by your past "contributions" to the blog, you'll find that facts stand or fall on merit.

Funny that an antivaxer would talk about "facts standing or falling on merits" when not a single piece of evidence (and I use that term loosely) they present even passes the sniff test.

As to the rest, I believe the poster above managed "antivax" bingo fairly quickly - with even a few bonus ones thrown in for good measure.

A number of my patients over the years were victims of rape, sexual abuse and sexual assault: this kind of willful misuse of the word "rape" is highly offensive, to say the least.

And you don't understand consent either.

Try harder to muster an actual coherent argument, please.

Murmur… sorry you can consult a dictionary if you like. Rape applies to more than just sexual situations, and frankly the injection of semen might count as LESS serious an offense than whatever winds up in the next batch of "safe and effective." Whereas there are plenty of mostly Liberal fools that truly make light of "rape" by describing "mental rape" for not having a gay wedding cake baked at their preferred bakery, I sure as heck am NOT making light of it. Still if you prefer we can go with "bio-chemical assault" to describe government shots less consent. How's that?

As offensive as you are, Mr. Hanson. Pick an e-mail address and name and stick with it. Every time you change it, WordPress flags you as a new commenter and your comment is automatically moderated. I'm not going to approve any more comments that get flagged as you being a new commenter because you're using different e-mail addresses or 'nyms. Pick one and stick with it.

More importantly, if you're going to start likening vaccination to rape, you won't be around here very long. This is a highly offensive analogy for so many reasons.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/30/anti-vaccine-not-pro-safe-…

“You might not get by with this in a regular public school, so try charters and small private schools—seek those schools out.” To be honest, I’m not sure about that; I’d guess it might be easier to get lost in the shuffle of bureaucracy in a large public school and thus drag things out.

I thought he was suggesting that the small private or charter schools would be willing to play along and pretend that the children will eventually be vaccinated whereas the large or public schools would not. That is, it's not a matter of getting lost in bureaucracy; it's a matter of finding a school that's equally antivax.

Nice attempt at smear Lawrence… Medical choice is no game much less "bingo" and I've had too many shots and consented to enough for dependent children to be truly counted as anti-vax. Being opposed to the concept of vaccination and the low quality shots wrongly declared "safe and effective" are two different things.

If you'd like to have an adult conversation about the facts presented in the playlist, please do. But you've demonstrated here the standard style of "argument" that I've come to expect from other discussions with leftist fascists.

"Leftist fascists." All I can say is: Fascism. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Orac, Used the same email on all comments… There was no intention to mislead about my own identity and Eric Hanson is my true name. The comment engine requires entry each time and be well assured I wasn't attempting to trick anyone to thinking Eric H and E Hanson were two separate folks on this thread (as should be obvious)

Based on your other articles I'd not be surprised that there would already be posturing to scrub, flag and block, but it would be a bit dishonest in my opinion for you to follow through.

However strong a word "rape" injections by government medical complex less consent is an equally strong concept.

On the word "fascism" I believe I am familiar with the English language and the definition of all the words I've used. If a third party suddenly declares a right to inject something into your blood stream for what they decide is "greater good" I suspect you might be so bold as to use the same word. But you're welcome to choose your words I suppose. I am now curious… What do YOU think "fascism" means exactly?

He recommended that parents seek an IEP, even for “minimal speech delay or learning issue”

If he is any successful with his advice, that's going to put some wrinkles in epidemiological studies a few decades from now.
"Study reports unvaccinated children more likely to have speech delay."

As someone with a sibling who needed IEP (or rather the French equivalent), I'm not very happy with a doctor encouraging his audience to go in competition with people with real medical needs to access limited special education resources.

@ Murmur

I'm afraid our visitor is a lost case.
I was tempted to reply to him, but my answers could have been really offensive to the audience. His apologetic presentation of rape is disturbing enough, either way I try to tackle it, I would very likely just be pouring oil on the fire.

As you noted, it's also not helping that about half of Eric's rant don't make much sense.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Really enjoyed the link to the other article that contradicts (but certainly doesn't refute) the all-so-wild associations between the different varieties of non-consentual injections.

Whereas I agree that the word "rape" is overused to describe trivial matters of "hurt feelings", "day after remorse" and other foolishness, the concept of getting injected with a shot when you have no say in the matter is a very heavy matter.

If I wound up in some fancy government gulag and were faced with sharing a cell with some villain prone to the variety of rape that's quietly accepted as part of a prison sentence, and some frequency of needle injections by the gulag "doctor", I believe I'd be not unreasonable to be equally terrified of both.

@Eric

If a third party suddenly declares a right to inject something into your blood stream for what they decide is “greater good”

Since there was no such decision, fascism doesn't apply here, for any definition of it.
And no, I'm not just nitpicking about "blood stream".

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric H@12

Whereas I agree that the word “rape” is overused to describe trivial matters of “hurt feelings”, “day after remorse” and other foolishness, the concept of getting injected with a shot when you have no say in the matter is a very heavy matter.

Here I thought you couldn't possibly be more vile and you sure showed me. Not only are school mandates for vaccines rape, but also actual rape isn't rape. You are a disgusting, awful person Mr. Hanson.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Hellanthus… intelligent argument wouldn't be at all offensive to any but the most dedicated liberal doctrinaires. So I'm guessing the response you had been "tempted" to offer was of a different category and so it'd be safe to assume we didn't miss much.

Yes, the anti-vaxers quickly show their true colors.....and lack of education as well.

They misuse words in an attempt to paint their opponents as Nazis (hence the use of Fascist whenever possible) - and also they lack knowledge of the law they criticize; a law which conforms to other laws which have been in place for decades in other parts of the United States.

They also believe that their children are property - hence their belief that whatever they say goes.

And to highlight that, notice how everything is about "them" and hardly a mention about concerns for the health of children - either their own or others.

But I'm sure that Eric will just keep digging his hole.

A minor point, but I don't think Wakefield ever fully qualified as a gastroenterologist.

Oh, and as a quick aside - he also shows a lack of knowledge of vaccines, since he repeats the "injected into the bloodstream" fallacy as well.

capnkrunch… not sure if you genuinely misunderstood. By "day after remorse" I was referring to the modern "rape culture" mindset that encourages young women to reinvent consensual sexual relations as "rape" after the fact. If you've not heard of this and the "affirmative consent" movement that virtually requires college kids get notarized documents before consensual intimacy, you're living in blissful ignorance. Sorry for any "triggers" resulting from the obvious misunderstanding, unless this was just ad hominem as a sad substitute for arguing on topic.

Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Nnooo... I don't think that was what you meant, was it, Eric? None of those applies to getting a vaccine. See the earlier post about Humpty Dumpty. You can't just use words and have them mean just what you'd like, unless you want to look like an utter illiterate tw@.

Which you do.

Kind regards,

Becky

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"injected into the bloodstream"… I knew I could learn something from you Lawrence. Generally injections to tissue make it into "the bloodstream", and there are also vaccines administered less any sort of injection. Glad we could clear that up. Thank you again.

Fascism isn't a word that only applies to the history nor present day NAZI movements. Whether or not it makes modern progressives uncomfortably to own history's examples of Statism and Socialism there's nothing particularly wrong with remembering that history as we boldly march into the current Orwellian progressive utopia.

I suppose we could use medical tyranny as a substitute for medical fascism but then you might offend some other leftist by associating with one of their own favorite past or modern day tyrants.

Anyway such a nice little journey of semantics and ad hominem . Do let me know if you might like to discuss the issue at hand which is "my body my choice" vs. "shots less informed or any other kind of consent".

Do let me know if you might like to discuss the issue at hand which is “my body my choice” vs. “shots less informed or any other kind of consent”.

You really haven't twigged, have you, that no-one is forcing vaccinations on anyone?

Yes, your body, your choice. Also, your choice, your consequences. You don't want to vaccinate, don't. You don't want your children vaccinated, don't. You'll just have to home school them, for the safety of others.

And please, stop making up meanings for words that you use, while having no idea of their correct meaning.

You might want to read an interesting Wikipedia on fascism before bandying the word around in the manner of a sh!t-flinging ape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Rebecca Fisher… guess we can spend more time on word usage and whatever range of definitions you deem acceptable. I hardly think I'm the first to use the word in this context. Maybe these folks are wrong too… http://www.truthwiki.org/medical_fascism/

But anyway no point in getting too caught up in a word. If you prefer I'll be glad to substitute Medical Tyranny for Medical Fascism even though I'm rather certain you are smart enough to recognize the intended meaning either way.

“my body my choice"

No. The law does not apply to your body. It applies to the bodies of small children, who are both legally and as a practical matter incapable of consenting to any "choice" in this matter.

Well, at least, assuming you're not in grade school.

the concept of getting injected with a shot when you have no say in the matter is a very heavy matter.

I agree; this concept that you describe would indeed be a very heavy matter. However, just as saying "A chicken who learned how to drive a tank and fire its guns would be highly dangerous" does not imply that any such chicken does, will, or even COULD exist, this concept that you describe has nothing to do with SB277.

No one will "get[] injected with a shot when [they or their guardians] have no say in the matter" under SB277. Not one. If Mr. Jones has a fixed delusion that vaccines are bad and his little Johnny shouldn't take them, then he can choose an option that will lead to Johnny NOT having to take them. Mr. Jones has had his say in the matter. SB277 just means there's a consequence to that choice; Mr. Jones can't answer the question of "how will little Johnny get his education" the way most parents do, by saying "we'll send him to public school and let public taxes pay for his education!"

You might think that there is a sound and valid argument that can be made, for why not giving Mr. Jones a "skip out on your responsibilities to the public health but have the public purse give you the benefits you want anyways" option is somehow a grave, terrible matter. If that's so, you need to MAKE THE ARGUMENT. If you can make a coherent argument, there is no need to make a comparison to rape; if you make the comparison to rape because you CAN'T make any coherent argument, it will convince people - convince them that you are vile and deluded, not that your point of view has any merit at all.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I'm pretty sure Eric H is free to decline any and all immunizations or injections in general, unless he wants to hold a job that requires them (i.e. health care worker or member of the armed forces). So his freedom to practice ignorance is intact.

He does seem to support the idea of "my child's body, MY choice" (again, the idea of children as parental property).

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ Eric

So I’m guessing the response you had been “tempted” to offer was of a different category and so it’d be safe to assume we didn’t miss much.

You would have been wrong.

I started thinking of writing something describing the short-term and long-term trauma of rape and asking how that compare to a vaccine jab.
I then realized that such an answer could be equally distressing to any assault victim reading this thread as your callous post, so I cut it out.

Also, rape, gay marriage and so on are highly controversial topics. I was afraid that answering you on these lines would derail the discussion.
Would be a shame, isn't it? Let's stick to the current topic: mandatory vaccines before entering school.

But thanks for asking.

So, again, how is this law translating into "forced injections into the bloodstream"?
That's not nitpicking. If you have read Orac's article, you would know it's about a doctor providing advice on how to avoid the mandatory vaccination, by either looking for agreeable schools or for a (most likely false) medical exemption.
Doesn't sound like "forced", to me. More like, pubic schools have become an exclusive club. If you want to enroll, get your jabs. Or enroll somewhere else. There seem to be no lack of alternating places.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Rebecca Fisher, with all due respect and then some… I may not be the only "ape" to engage in the "flinging of the s@#".

Nice little detour on semantics and word use, but I certainly am not the first to make mention of the concept of fascism in medicine.

Perhaps this will help.

http://www.truthwiki.org/medical_fascism/

Of course they could be wrong too… but does it really make the difference… is it really worth the detour?

If one is a "trigger word" for you, I suppose we can substitute "Medical Tyranny". Does that feel better?

As for the "home schooling" choice… those playing a game of mental Shoots and Ladders might think the latest bill is the end game. The AMA and POTUS have already stated their intentions to take the next steps. Also the same vile anti-freedom forces responsible for the most recent insidious law to marginalize kids by kicking them from pre-school, grade school, colleges and "places of work" are already working to outlaw the one "loophole" discussed only to expedite passage. Meanwhile discussions have already started… "well if they aren't safe next to our kids in school… what about parks, theaters, planes, shopping malls?"

The other reality is the kids that just received shots with live virus are by far more of a hazard to the unvaccinated than the vaccine clear kids are to those that are presumably "protected" by "safe and effective" no?

Anyway glad you have such a passionate interest in the use of English. Guess that's awfully important there in Britain. Keep up the great work!

"public schools"

Nice one, self.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

A minor point, but I don’t think Wakefield ever fully qualified as a gastroenterologist.

He was a licensed physician before he was struck off, however. He was a primarily a researcher, but I'm not as sure about his clinical background.

Orac, Used the same email on all comments...

No, you didn't. I can provide screenshots from the WordPress back end if you don't believe me.

Orac… I believe I've been fair in my attempts to respond to a barrage of mostly ad hominem. Now it seems you've elected to scrub each subsequent answer which is misleading to the other members on the thread. So anyway if you must play that dishonest game, please feel encouraged to scrub the rest of the comments.

If he is any successful with his advice, that’s going to put some wrinkles in epidemiological studies a few decades from now.
“Study reports unvaccinated children more likely to have speech delay.”

Good point. Such a strategy on the part of antivaxers will falsely elevate the apparent prevalence of autism, speech delay, learning delays, etc.

And I have scrubbed nothing. Some of your posts went into spam. Some other commenters' comments got caught by the spam filter too. They've been published.

Eric,
Get over yourself.

By Chan Kobun, th… (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

What do YOU think “fascism” means exactly?

It's a palingenetic form of ultranationalism with totalitarian features.

But if that's too abstract for you, here's a simple rule of thumb:

When people live in a country where anyone can go on the internet and freely express their objections to the actions of the state without exposing themselves to swift, immediate, brutal reprisals, they're not living in a fascist system.

@Eric H: so be honest with us all. What vaccines are safe to be given? Why? What vaccines AREN'T safe? Why not? And don't pull out the antivaccine tropes of "mercury, monkey parts, formaldehyde, dead babies, etc, etc". But if you have HONEST objections that can truly be linked with vaccines (which also rules out autism, autoimmune diseases, etc), I really want to hear them.

I want ONE antivaccinationist to answer this question. But they all run away screaming "my choice, my choice" without every saying why.

@Eric H
'bad' things are 'bad' by their own merits - not by some vague analogy based on single aspects. Lots of things get stuck into lots of other things without it being 'rape', and governments often mandate things - its in the nature of governance really - without being 'facist'.

If someone goes mental and starts taking *potentially* dangerous actions and a doctor sticks a shot in them (w/o consent, and as manadated as a legal medical duty) to chill them out, is this 'facist rape'?

I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that you wouldn't object to this scenario, or characterize it as you have and ofc they're not entirely the same situation, but I'd like to know how you differentiate them - nothing you have written seems to.

@orac
Truthwiki, this is really great. And you are honoured almost in first place with an entry ;-)
@Eric Hanson
So Eric,you build up a giant strawman (you know, fascistically forced (or raped) injection of vaccines into the blood stream and so on. Whee, this is so wrong it is not even wrong and after deconstruction you whine around about definitions of words. Well, I think everybody clearly can see that you have no idea from medicine or science, you are just spreading dangerous misinformations.

"leftist facists"..... hahaha... been laughing at that oxymoron for 20 minutes.

"who you calling an oxymoron" will come next from Eric, no?

" Do let me know if you might like to discuss the issue at hand which is “my body my choice” vs. “shots less informed or any other kind of consent”."

I thought the issue at hand was whether unscrupulous physicians were "selling" medical exemptions to vaccination.
Do let us know if you'd like to discuss that.
If not, why don't you just piss off, and discuss rape and facism on some other forums that cater for your quiddities.

I was referring to the modern “rape culture” mindset that encourages young women to reinvent consensual sexual relations as “rape” after the fact.

There is no such movement. The lifetime prevalence for rape is 20 percent. More than two-thirds of all rapes are not reported. And 97 percent of the ones that are do not result in conviction or punishment of any kind.

This is a very longstanding state of affairs, which is widely tolerated by the culture as a whole. So there's no need to put irony-quotes around the phrase rape culture.

If you’ve not heard of this and the “affirmative consent” movement that virtually requires college kids get notarized documents before consensual intimacy, you’re living in blissful ignorance.

Affirmative consent does not virtually require college kids to get notarized documents before consensual intimacy. That's ridiculous.

I believe I’ve been fair in my attempts to respond to a barrage of mostly ad hominem.

Wherein Eric H demonstrates that he doesn't know the difference between an ad hominem argument and an insult.

Eric H,

Per the post topic, what are your thoughts on Dr. Sears and his antivaccine open house? Or houses? Probably more to come.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I believe I’ve been fair in my attempts to respond to a barrage of mostly ad hominem.

"Ad Hominem". I don't think that means what you think it means.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

OK that comment #30 is there… so I'll assume I may respond in my usual civil manner (somewhat unique on this thread)

to Rebecca Fisher … appreciate your concern for the the proper use of English… I don't believe the concept of "Medical Fascism" is my own invention.

http://www.truthwiki.org/medical_fascism/

Perhaps they are wrong too… but anyway if you prefer some other phrase for the emerging Orwellian nightmare reigned in by the government-medical complex, please do let me know. Maybe Medical Tyranny? Or is that also a "trigger word"?

As for parental informed consent suggesting kids are "property of parents", there are only two possible views on this. They are either the responsibility of parents till they reach a majority age, or they are not. The collectivist view is that children are somehow owned by the State. In reality there are elements of both, but generally the liberty minded among us are a lot more comfortable with empowerment of family units to have a say in medical decisions concerning the children that the good parents among us consider to be their most important blessing.

As for the notion that "home schooling" is the "out" and excuse to declare that "shots are not mandatory", that only works for those playing mental "Shoots and Ladders". Those of us playing mental "chess" are able to see the next moves.

Just as Orac had once celebrated the arguably noble achievement of putting the "informed" in "informed consent" with an earlier bill in 2012, we have learned since then that that earlier Assembly Bill was by no means the "end game".

The same politicians celebrating this marginalizing of children not subjected to the full obscene modern course of shots are already working to close the "loophole" of "home schooling" And the discussions have already started about how, if these kids aren't "safe" around ours in school… "what about the parks, planes, theaters and shopping malls?"

The POTUS and AMA have already made public declarations of an intention to make "mandatory" shots a National reality.

Additionally those vaccinated with live virus shots are more likely to harm the unvaccinated than the other way around… if we're to believe the shots have ANY qualities that make them "effective".

I realize we're all want to live in a world that's safe as possible and especially for our kids, and this certainly has become a heated subject here and elsewhere.

Hope you might consider hearing out all sides. Or do they not even teach "open mind" in Liberal Arts anymore?

The AMA and POTUS have already stated their intentions to take the next steps. Also the same vile anti-freedom forces responsible for the most recent insidious law to marginalize kids by kicking them from pre-school, grade school, colleges and “places of work” are already working to outlaw the one “loophole” discussed only to expedite passage. Meanwhile discussions have already started… “well if they aren’t safe next to our kids in school… what about parks, theaters, planes, shopping malls?”

Citations needed.

The other reality is the kids that just received shots with live virus are by far more of a hazard to the unvaccinated than the vaccine clear kids are to those that are presumably “protected” by “safe and effective” no?

That's not a reality. So ditto.

...if we’re to believe the shots have ANY qualities that make them "effective”.

Are you saying that vaccines aren't effective?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

It would appear that we are going to need the equivalent of "prescription mill" for medical exemptions. I nominate "exemption mill" if it is not already in use,

By machintelligence (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

As for parental informed consent suggesting kids are “property of parents”, there are only two possible views on this. They are either the responsibility of parents till they reach a majority age, or they are not.

You missed another possibility, namely that children are autonomous beings temporarily under the care of the parents, who are assumed to act in their best interests. However, because that is not always true, when parents fail and medically neglect there children, there must be a mechanism to correct that.

It would appear that we are going to need the equivalent of “prescription mill” for medical exemptions. I nominate “exemption mill” if it is not already in use,

Indeed. Eric has managed to hijack the thread, which is about Dr. Bob's gaming of the system to offer medical exemptions for a fee.

I'm a DO pediatric resident. There's probably a sliver of truth to the idea that DOs are more "open minded." DO school is presented as an alternative to MD school where you learn a more "holistic" approach and osteopathic manipulation. Because of that, it appeals to people that are interested in alt med. However, just like MDs, the overwhelming majority of DOs are evidence based physicians. For example, my school had an antivaccine alt med family doc as adjunct faculty and she was asked to stop precepting medical students due to her non-EBM views.

I would love for some of Dr Bobs readers to end up in my clinic though. I'm very open minded to high quality published research and enjoy discussing misinformation or concerns parents have if it could possibly result in protecting a child from a preventable disease.

By bluedevilRA (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

In case anyone didn't fathom the reason for Orac's laughter, Truth wiki is another of Mike Adams's projects.

He also owns Truth Publishing.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

MI Dawn A fair question. Anyone with even minor medical knowledge knows there is virtually no topically applied, ingested nor injected medicine of any sort that is 100% safe for everyone. To some common off the shelf make-ups are dangerous. Informed consent is about a patient or a parent measuring benefits and risk from their own research. As an example, I accepted for my own kids the MMR and several other vaccines that, in retrospect (based on subsequent research) were likely more risk than benefit, but rightfully rejected Hep B vaccine, since could not imagine a kid raised in a clean home having much risk of exposure outside of a day-care environment where overly small kids are virtually gnawing on one another's eyeballs.

I personally know individuals with vaccine injured children… and in spite of 6 degrees of separation, it would be a huge coincidence to be so close to anything as rare as the forced shots community might try to paint the increasing range of injections at a time when immune and neurological systems aren't well prepared to deal with the live virus nor the neurotoxins.

Whereas most of us that will at least watch a documentary like Silent Epidemic know there are pros and cons to clean well produced vaccines, the industry that produces shots has been made completely immune (the one kind of immunity we can count on) to any liability for their product. When the so-called "vaccine courts" award settlements, they're paid with public money (that's you, me or anyone else that's working) and that presents many serious concerns apart from the tax liability.

There is NO incentive for the vaccine makers to make safe product that we'd have if they were in any way made liable for any vaccine injuries.

Well there are lots of specifics to discuss on the merits of vaccines. And AGAIN I'm not really the best candidate to be smeared as "anti-vas" since I've taken plenty of shots and allowed my kids to have plenty of shots too.

And frankly I'm more likely to trust whatever is in that needle when I'm at least presented the choice. Once the overly cozy government-medical-establishment relationship results in "take these shots or else!" that trust is broken, and at that point its time to reject any and all of that government Mana.

Whatever we want to call it… Medical Fascism, Medical Tyranny, or just Medical-"What we say goes!", whatever love and unreasonable trust some of us might trust in the Cozy Corporate and Government relationships with the current administration could go in another direction once someone you don't personally trust gains power.

I've literally argued with others that recognized harmful effects in vaccines "for some" and that still tow the line of "greater good" and the unproven theory of "herd immunity". Well anyway I personally have no plan to be part of anyone's "herd" whether or not the sheep I believe overly enamored with any and all government Mana might believe we all must cooperate with the same very honest folks that purposely gave folks syphilis for the all so "noble" experiments that bring us all to that place called "greater good".

"He stated they could, but to get involved they would need someone to file a complaint about a specific case."

That someone doesn't have to be a patient. It can also be the state health department complaining when one of Bob's precious snowflake patients kicks off an epidemic and it is found that he misused the medical exemption. I say let him try. Let's play this game of chicken with the ultimate of stakes: public health.

I still wonder what would happen in this situation: "Dr. Bob" writes an exemption for a child based on "some relative has allergies"; the child then gets the measles and suffers severe and permanent injury; the child reaches majority and sues "Dr. Bob" for malpractice.

I'm sure "Dr. Bob" has the parents sign a waiver of claims, but the parents are not the patient and cannot waive the child's rights. Assuming "Dr. Bob" has a malpractice insurer, I would hope the insurer is looking hard at what he's offering to do here.

'Silent Epidemic' is a film ( if I may call it that) by Gary Null which is part of a trilogy ( but not a good one like LOTR) along with 'Vaccine Nation' and 'Autism: Made in the USA'.

I'm sure Orac's readers have now had their breath taken away by those ingeniously clever titles.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

So Eric is a liar, an Adams shill, an anti-vaxxer, and a misogynistic rape-denier.

He's either a very dedicated Poe, or a tiny little man angry at everything. Either way, not really worth listening to.

By Chan Kobun, th… (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"he increasing range of injections at a time when immune and neurological systems aren’t well prepared to deal with the live virus nor the neurotoxins."

Antivaxxers often make this claim. Jay Gordon, Pediatrician to the *Stars* makes it too, though he claims not to be an antivaxxer. So, in your opinion, Eric H, based on your research, at what age are the immune and neurological systems "well-prepared"? Five or six? Eighteen? Never?

Not a Troll
"…if we’re to believe the shots have ANY qualities that make them 'effective'."
"Are you saying that vaccines aren’t effective?"

The folks that think kids suffer wild risks for being near vaccine clear kids seem to be indicating their own lack of confidence on the "effectiveness" of vaccines.

The documentary Silent Epidemic goes more into what some medical professionals and scientists think with respect to their own doubts.

I believe that some may be effective and others may not. Some may present risks far greater than any reasonably imagined benefits.. Gardasil would be an example. But whereas I may have researched more deeply than most Kaiser MD's, I hardly consider my education on the subject complete.

The "medical professionals and scientists" featured in 'Silent Epidemic' are not unknown to Orac and his readers: IIRC Humphries, Banks, Tenpenny, Tomljenovic, Laibow, Habakus, ..

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Chan Kobun, the Ghost-Who-Waddles

On the Twitters @Chankobun
"So Eric is a liar, an Adams shill, an anti-vaxxer, and a misogynistic rape-denier.

He’s either a very dedicated Poe, or a tiny little man angry at everything. Either way, not really worth listening to."

In most of my experience those without argument pursue this sort of smear in place of a more meaningful contribution.

In case your confusion is genuine, I never raped anyone, nor have I been accused. Hardly think my wife nor any other female members of my family would count me a "misogynistic rape-denier." but of course the same Rules for Radicals crowd applied the same smear to Gandhi when questioned vaccination programs in his country and second guessed other liberal agenda that harmed "his people".

You seem to be a true doctrinaire of every imaginable DNC talking point. In case there's more to you than these shallow antics, please do inform where I told any sort of "lie".

So Eric is a liar, an Adams shill, an anti-vaxxer, and a misogynistic rape-denier.

Is he known to frequent other forums? I don't recall encountering him before.

The folks that think kids suffer wild risks for being near vaccine clear kids seem to be indicating their own lack of confidence on the “effectiveness” of vaccines

The fact that anti-vaccine liars invented "vaccine shedding" as another mendacious attack on vaccine science in a pathetic attempt to justify their "lack of confidence" about vaccination doesn't mean that such a danger exists.

[W]hereas I may have researched more deeply than most Kaiser MD’s

A few hours googling "vaccine risks" and watching propaganda films like "Silent Epidemic" is not research, you arrogant Dunning-Kruger pillock.

I hardly consider my education on the subject complete.

Now there's an understatement.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric H doesn't appears to have a level of understanding of the VICP and manufacturer liability as he does of other vaccine topics. That is to say, not much.

VICP is funded by taxes paid by the manufacturer. It is not "public money" any more than the excise tax you pay for your car is your tenant's money.

Also, manufacturers are not "completely free from liability". While design defect claims cannot be brought against them in court, labeling defect and manufacturing defect claims can. As for no incentive to produce better products? Apparently competition is not a motivator. A vaccine just as effective but with fewer side effects as your competitor's product? That would never sell. Having family members who would also be getting these "unsafe" or "ineffective" vaccines? Nah. Everyone knows that all of the people that work for pharma are cold-blooded fiends who would kill or maim their own children if it made them an extra buck.

Now, Eric. Instead of continuing derailing the thread with by displaying your lack of knowledge about vaccines, governmental systems, or commerce, why don't you comment on the subject of the main post: doctors selling bogus medical exemptions. What are your thoughts?

"incomplete education" might be the understatement of the thread.

Back on topic, it is quite possible, that if Dr. Bob does become an "exemption mill" that local news might take an interest & perhaps stage a "hidden camera" investigation....perhaps catching the good doctor "coaching" the parents and asking them leading questions to determine what would be the best excuse for the medical exemption.

It would be fairly easy to do such an investigation & just about anyone with a small camera could do just that (such as private organizations that attempt to "trap" politicians or unpopular social organizations in compromising situations).

Though Dr. Bob is so narcissistic that he may believe that he is above reproach.....or the law.

Eric...you didn't really answer my questions. So please go back and do that. Your tangential wanderings are amusing but not factual.

Also, please be aware that NO ONE here claims vaccines, medicines, or even day-to-day living is perfectly 100% safe. We admit all things have risks. But we also admit that generally, vaccine risk is of great magnitude lower than the disease risk. If you have proof it's not, we'd all like to see it.

(Sorry, Orac...and now back to our currently scheduled discussion...) And obviously, you are going to be one of the first in line for one of Dr Bob's "medical" exemptions. Can you explain WHY someone should be exempt because of parental misinformation rather than true medical necessity?

Not letting somoene inot place where he'd endanger the people inside =/= grabbing them and injecting them against their will.

I actually don't see the fuss about having trouble with acess to education that antivaxxers make. Preventing their children from learning will make it easier for them to hold their parents' beliefs.

By The Smith of Lie (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

LW… Whereas I believe these concerns about "too much too soon" to be credible, I have only the pre 1988 vaccine schedule to comfortably count as "sensible". The number of shots and subsequent boosters in the age range of 0-4 has become ridiculous. And infant mortality rates correlate to high vaccination rates.

Still as long as folks can participate in decision making, I'm good. If you love every single bit of Mana in the form of shots, feel free to shoot yourself up senseless.

The game of smearing a supposed category of "anti-vaxers" and blaming them for a Disney Measles event that happened just months after the hoards of "unaccompanied minors" were invited and escorted around the country by the present administration is certainly "effective" enough to dramatically change popular opinion by marginalizing perfectly healthy children that might have missed one or two boosters.

Within a few months the bills are flying ($'s) to the lowest and most vile politicians available like Mr. "My Body My Choice" Dick Pan and individual "informed consent" is by decree of the villains in Sacramento OK for all children that don't enter private or public school, colleges, or "places of work".

And here we seem to have a collection of "science fans" that all rejoice! Rather amazing isn't it?

For someone that decries "Ad Hominem" - he certainly seems to participate in throwing a lot of them....

And he's also misinformed, since the "unaccompanied minors" all either had their vaccine status confirmed with available records, or if none were available, they were immunized at the processing stations at the border.

Probably due to an overdose of FoxNews....

Eric H: If I were to pick up a crowbar and swing it in the direction of your kneecap, would it be in my right to do what I want with my arm?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Fascism, rape, bloodstream, research.

Eric should be posting in the Humpty Dumpty thread. "When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

Our friend, Eric H nicely illustrates how alt med activists effectively control how their readers think by limiting their access to information and mis-representing themselves as scientists who can educate others about health. He's been misinformed by expert contrarians with axes to grind and products to sell.

Similarly, an earlier effort by anti-SBM forces focused upon denying the reality of hiv and aids: they produced a list of 'over 2000 experts' who disagreed with standard research findings about the virus and the illness. Over the years, they have lost influence with the public as more hiv+ people have survived and leading advocates of their cause have died.
Both of those to whom Eric refers are hiv/ aids denialists.
Even now. After all that has happened.

People like Adams and Null want their readers to be unaware of real medical research because it might cut into their profit stream. They produce a nearly endless barrage of research findings that support their beliefs about nutrition and lifestyle whilst filtering out anything that supports medical intervention and genetic influences. They don't sell meds or deal with issues surrounding genetically determined illness. They sell foods, supplements, advice and beliefs.

If you don't believe me, go to their websites' Stores.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

MI Dawn.

"NO ONE here claims vaccines, medicines, or even day-to-day living is perfectly 100% safe."

I don't know if you speak for everyone here, but we certainly agree on this point.

And whether or not the benefits were proven (we disagree if you say they are) to by far outweigh risks, I'll still choose my shots and thank you.

The absurd notion that vaccine clear kids present risk to those "protected" by "safe and effective" injections is amazing.

There is certainly a risk of immigration less screening, and I'd look more to that if you are genuinely concerned about reintroduction of whatever illnesses were wiped out by whatever combination of clean water, environment and vaccines we might thank for such former success in wellbeing. And maybe have a look at the cancers and other ill health effects that have hit epidemic levels and that might be owed to anything from over-vaccination to "nursery water".

Also might be worth considering that those publicly advocating more vaccination are also advocating reduced CO2 by reduced population. (Bill Gates comes to mind) If vaccines make everyone so much more healthy overall, one would think that'd be the last thing you'd want if you were worried about "too many people" making CO2 with all those LOL's. No?

"The game of smearing a supposed category of “anti-vaxers” and blaming them for a Disney Measles event that happened just months after the hoards of “unaccompanied minors” were invited and escorted around the country by the present administration is certainly “effective” enough to dramatically change popular opinion by marginalizing perfectly healthy children that might have missed one or two boosters."

All those unaccompanied minors came from the Philippines, huh? Or maybe they went over on vacation, or on a mission trip, and brought back that strain?
Those "hoards" come from countries with far more stringent vaccination laws, and most were fully vaccinated, some were partially vaccinated, and -- as stated above -- those who were not up to date were vaccinated at the processing station by our "fascist" government.
I do believe Eric has hit all the major anti-vaccine fallacies: Racism, misogyny, science denial, appeal to authority, Dunning-Krueger, ad hominem, straw men, Goodwin...

Does he have a fire science degree? 'Cause that would round it out nicely.

Eric, there's a very good online work called "Herd Immunity -- a Rough Guide" that addresses your misconceptions about what risk unvaccinated children pose. It's free and was produced by two researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

Todd W. an amusing thought. Not sure if you're a parent, but whereas we might choose different lines where parents decisions are replaced by the child's, I'd hope you'd at least recognize that presenting choice to a newborn to 4 or 5 years of age might play to the dreaded "anti-vaxer's" "advantage".

Whereas all kids develop at their own rates, I for one will go along with the majority age at 18 concept for now until you or someone else convinces the advantage of making that higher or lower.

Eric H@15

capnkrunch… not sure if you genuinely misunderstood.

No, unfortunately, I understood perfectly well.

If you’ve not heard of this and the “affirmative consent” movement...

Affirmative consent is the only kind of consent. Just because she doesn't say "no" doesn't mean "yes". Congratulations, you're an antivaxxer and a rape apologist. Why not throw in a Holocaust and a slavery comparison so you hit the trifecta of misogyny, antisemitism, and racism.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Obviously EH is a disciple of Mike Adams or any of the other "Health Gurus" trotting out the Bill Gates "depopulation" routine....

As all rational people are well-aware, knowing that one's children will survive into adulthood has led to a decrease in family size (it happened here, Europe, etc.) which in turn leads to a decrease in the rate of population growth....

But again, pointing that out to EH is an exercise in futility, given his adoption of all of the typical anti-vax & pro-woo positions he has espoused in this thread thus far.

Eric H,

I'm not sympathetic to your complaints about how you are being treated here because you knew what you were getting when you stopped by - or you should have been being that it is obvious if you have read even one article prior.

Also, yours sounds less like a screed about vaccines and more about a platform. I know that platform and I know it can't support what Dr. Sears is doing by exploiting others. So do you have any defense of what he is doing or do you just want to continue to run on your platform?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric reminds me of another ignorant jack@ss on Twitter that I've seen interacting with Orac and others.

I'm not surprised that Dr. Bob has found a way to cash in on SB277, because he's shown that his primary focus is, and always will be, on the money.

He's vile.

Ren -- so far he's brought up rape culture, immigration, and the liberal agenda. Anti-vaxx bingo, heck -- anyone up for Fox News bingo?

I do believe Eric has hit all the major anti-vaccine fallacies: Racism, misogyny, science denial, appeal to authority, Dunning-Krueger, ad hominem, straw men, Goodwin…

Indeed. An argument not to ban him is because he is educational, although not in the way he thinks he is because, as you say, he hits all the antivax fallacies plus misogyny and right wing politics. One wonders if he's a false flag operation from pro-vaxers designed to make antivaxers look like utter loons, because he sure is accomplishing that. I am amused. For now. I don't guarantee that my amusement will continue indefinitely.

@Eric H

My point was that parents are stewards of their children's health, but the children are not the parent's property to do with as they please.

I notice that you still are avoiding the main topic of the post: doctors selling bogus medical exemptions. Any comment?

The absurd notion that vaccine clear kids present risk to those “protected” by “safe and effective” injections is amazing.

Riley Hughes was a baby, too young to be vaccinated. He caught diphtheria from an intentionally unvaccinated child and died. Ditto Dana McCaffrey.

And maybe have a look at the cancers and other ill health effects that have hit epidemic levels and that might be owed to anything from over-vaccination to “nursery water”.

Citation needed that the rate of cancer has hit "epidemic levels". Oh, and since Hepatitis and HPV can cause cancers and can be prevented by vaccination, your insinuation that vaccines may cause cancer is laughable.

Also might be worth considering that those publicly advocating more vaccination are also advocating reduced CO2 by reduced population. (Bill Gates comes to mind)

Interesting fact: When children are more likely to survive to adulthood, the birthrate goes down. That's how vaccines indirectly influence the birthrate.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

sigh... Feels like the same conversation from the last 10 years.

@ Eric

the unproven theory of “herd immunity”.

Do you deny that a number of diseases are contagious and that people can develop immunity to such diseases and thus are not part of the contagion chain anymore?

For evidence of herd immunity, just study any outbreak in the past millenia. And compare the number of infected people from a known exposure.
The Disneyland measles outbreak only resulted in roughly 150 cases that we know of. The vast majority of inflicted people were non-vaccinated.
Outbreaks of any plague historically resulted in entire settlements being infected, rich/well-nourished and poor alike.

anyway I personally have no plan to be part of anyone’s “herd”

So you are living in the woods 200 clicks away from any other human being?
If you happen to go in a big town from time to time, I'm sorry but your herd is right around you.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I can elaborate on their method by providing a recent example:
from his own show @ prn, Null has discussed how he hires nutritionists at
'good wages' to talk with customers in his health food store and over the phone who provide FREE counselling about lifestyle change to address serious health issues.

Now I wonder why he does that? Wouldn't that cost him lots of money- since he has SEVERAL of these people in his employ at full time?

I can't imagine what they tell people to do. Oh let's see...
join a gym? Take classes about nutrition at a local university? See a doctor?

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

given his adoption of all of the typical anti-vax & pro-woo positions he has espoused in this thread thus far.

Also seems to be serving up a number of right wing frothingtalking points along with some conspiracy theory and subtle racism.

I wouldn't be surprised if "gay marriage" pops up eventually.

Probably spends a lot of time at the gun range discussing this nonsense with like minded crackpot parents while the kids practice shooting their 100% safe Uzis.

Hilarious.

Todd W - "Instead of continuing derailing the thread with by displaying your lack of knowledge about vaccines, governmental systems, or commerce, why don’t you comment on the subject of the main post: doctors selling bogus medical exemptions. What are your thoughts?"

I suppose if someone enacted legislation that you'd need a doctor's note to prove a need of weekends off from work, or a family vacation, (whether the need were "legitimate" or not) it would create a market for such notes.

Now a doctor writing such a note for a reason not deemed a "legitimate" excuse by the bureacrats could then be called out for "unethical" or even "criminal" behavior but those that genuinely recognize the right to claim those "weekends" or "vacations" beyond the official bureaucrat defined allowances might be regarded in a more positive light.

A hero is defined by someone that takes risk to help others… so in the case of restoring vaccine choice, for and by someone that has a more balanced view on the pros and cons associated with the product, that might be the word to apply.

If on the other hand a doctor genuinely believes he's enabling great harm for personal gain, he'd be reasonably counted a villain.

Even those directed entirely by conscience might, in a way, have "earned" any fees resultant from the bureaucrat created market, since the most devout among these take professional and personal risks for their bold defiance of the mighty bureaucrat.

Anyway ultimately once cherished freedoms must be bought to enrich opportunists or compensate risk we know we've achieved an Orwellian "utopia".

@ DGR

I wouldn’t be surprised if “gay marriage” pops up eventually.

Already done at #4.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Sorry if I'm being thick, what is a DO?

@Eric H

And infant mortality rates correlate to high vaccination rates.

Yes, but inverse.

Allow me to explain my previous post. Simply using the words "rights" and "freedom" does not justify anything. We limit people's freedom to set fires to other people's homes, I have yet to see a "pro-arson" movement. We need proof that harm is being caused by limiting someone's freedom.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ #93

Thanks.

Missed that in my skim of his ravings.

I didn't think you gained conscientious objector status by skirting the law but rather by disobeying it and accepting the consequences.

A hero, really? If Dr. Sears started giving out everyone who walked into his office an IEP for nothing but the cost of the paper it was printed on and had to face a licensing board for it, that would approach hero status. Misguided but still closer to hero. For what he is doing now, it is nothing but profiting from others' fears. I'm sure it is a lucrative shtick for him whether or not he actually believes in what he is selling.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@ Eric

I suppose if someone enacted legislation that you’d need a doctor’s note to prove a need of weekends off from work, or a family vacation, (whether the need were “legitimate” or not) it would create a market for such notes.

Not sure your analogy hold much.
Taking a day off work already has a legal frame, it's the work contract between the employee and the employer (a self-employee is free to do as he/she likes).

In most contract systems I know of, if you get sick and have to stay home, you will have to ask for a doctor's note in order to prove you were not just slacking of. Well, you usually have a number of days off you can ask for, be it vacation days or sick days. The doctor's note is for when you need more than the basic allowance.
And the employer is totally in its right to ask for such a note, since it is paying the employee for his/her time.

In this context, a "market' for doctor's orders to be off work do exist, at least in my country. Some people just keep visiting one physician or another until they find a sympathetic one. And a lot of people consider it cheating, and not just the "bureaucrats". Because such people are freeloaders, living off the ones who stayed at work.
The only ones considering that the day-off allowance should be bigger are, interesting enough, "liberal-lefties". You have more in common with them than you think.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Lawrence: "...the 'unaccompanied minors' all either had their vaccine status confirmed with available records, or if none were available, they were immunized at the processing stations at the border."

That's great news… didn't even realize that vaccination cured existing conditions. In that case, why not just wait till everyone has measles and give them the shots then when they're needed most?

Although I am curious… does that mean all the others that arrived less the formalities of immigration procedures are all free of contagious disease? Or do they get forced injections of the other sort too while riding up…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/central-america-migrants-rape_…

Wonder if my expressed concern and Huffington Post link for the rape here counts as "mild racism" or misogyny. Guess I better flip off the Fox and go back to the safer government-media complex choices and that cool soothing NPR tone.

Is there a mechanism in place in SB277 to track which doctors are writing medical exemptions? I don't see one in the text of the law, and that is worrisome (and a potential windfall for the likes of Sears and Gordon). Contrast this to doctors writing what is called a "recommendation" for "medical marijuana" in Arizona based on specific medical criteria defined by law. There is some sort of a monitoring system in place because physicians have been disciplined for improperly recommending medical marijuana to hundreds of patients (http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/2012/02/07/20120207ariz…).

Let's face it, at $180 a pop, Sears is gonna rake it in unless there's some way to keep an eye on his greedy, unethical and malpractice-level ways.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@EH
"Too much, too soon," and then you call the 1970s vaccination schedule more sensible?

HAHAHAHA

Previous vaccine schedules may have had fewer injections, but they had significantly more antigens than modern immunizations - modern vaccines are more efficient and "overload" (assuming that was a thing that actually existed) the immune system far less than the vaccines used in the schedule you find more palatable.

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that you are exposed to several times more antigens on an hour trip to the playground than you are in the entire vaccine schedule.

Also, the fact that you can continue to spout ill-informed, misogynistic, rape-apologizing garbage, let alone call our government fascist, without fear of reprisal (or a visit from miniluv) demonstrates that we're not in a fascist or Orwellian society.

A hero is defined by someone that takes risk to help others… so in the case of restoring vaccine choice...

"Vaccine choice" simply means refusing to keep up one's end of the social contract and turning one's children into vectors for diseases, placing the immunocompromised and those too young to be vaccinated at risk.

...for and by someone that has a more balanced view on the pros and cons associated with the product

How Orwellian. "Someone that has a more balanced view" translates to "a doctor who is unethical enough to write false medical exemptions for antivaccine parents".
The rest of your analogy is just as ludicrous.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Yeah, keep digging that hole Eric.....and misunderstanding basic scientific principles like incubation periods.

Shall we ignore the obvious troll and stick to the topic? That's one horse that you can lead to water and he'll keep peeing in it, so don't waste your time.

Lawrence @ 68: Exactly. Send in a reporter or an undercover police officer and catch these quacks selling exemptions complete with one-on-one "coaching." There are plenty of local news stations that will be eager to put the results on TV, and the publicity might stir the medical board to act. Follow up with an official interview request to give them a chance to "explain themselves."

Todd W. @ 76: Excellent test-case: Parents are stuck in woo up to their eyeballs, and their kids want to get their immunizations on schedule. Who prevails? I would love to see that go through the courts.

I wonder if these "exemption mill" doctors would appreciate a little free publicity in the form of sign-twirlers on the sidewalks in front of their offices? For example signs saying "Vaccine exemptions: $180, almost no questions asked!" or "Measles, schmeasles! Vaccines kill, get your official exemption here ($180)!", and an arrow pointing toward the door. Some of our fellow SBM fans in the right geographical areas might want to make an outing of it.

More suggestions for a generic name for these guys: "measles mill" or "vector mill" or perhaps "vector factory," or shorten that to "vectory."

Lastly: Dear Dr. Bob et.al.: don't be so smug, we're going to expose you and cheer when you are subjected to disciplinary action.

By Gray Squirrel (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Orac: "This is gaming the system at its most blatant."

Wow, just wow. In order to get those precious exemptions, he's advocating screwing disabled children out of the limited number of IEPs that exist! Do these parents know how hard it is to get an IEP?! I had to leave public school to get one of those. Shows the high regard these scum-sucking parents have for anyone with autism or a learning disability. The fuck is wrong with these people? Finding an anti-vaxxer or anti-choicer who's a decent person is increasingly looking less likely than cold fusion.

Apologies for the profanity, but these heartless shadows masquerading as people make me want to swear and punch things.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Helianthus

The only ones considering that the day-off allowance should be bigger are, interesting enough, “liberal-lefties”. You have more in common with them than you think.

Well… I didn't realize it would matter which arbitrary example I picked for an example. But anyway whether enabled by free market or state overreach, I do like to have a day off now and again… just finishing an 8 day stretch, and now missed a night of sleep here… so perhaps that influenced my selection.

On that note… really appreciate the kindness here. And the chance to learn about my misogyny, "mild racism" and "rape apology" without ever actually having pursued the Pirate's life nor taking photo ops with McCain and ISIS.

I'll review the notes and see if I can learn to better love the government Mana. But even with that process of rediscovering the blessed miracle of all those shots, I might still need more time to become completely comfortable with the "we decide you sit still" approach to "it's so great it has to be mandatory" medicine.

Thanks much again. If any want to go beyond "he sells vitamins and therefore none of his medical advice can be taken seriously" in the "Quack" circle, that'd be swell. It seemed to me some of the doctors made some good points, but, well they must all be lies because of "vitamins!"

Of course if this keeps up…

http://washingtonweeklynews.com/md-found-murdered-inside-florida-home-t…

we'll be truly able to say that not a doctor alive questions the current vaccine program. So that'll make the debate so much easier for everyone.

Cheers!

does that mean all the others that arrived less the formalities of immigration procedures are all free of contagious disease?

Many countries, especially those of old Europe and South America, have a high coverage rate for basic vaccinations.
Heck, some parts of California have a lower rate than some third-world countries (the latter in part thanks to Bill & Melinda Gates and their vaccination programs, the former thanks for the like of "heroes" like Dr Sears)
If we were talking tuberculosis, Eric may had a point, but measles? Not really.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Lawrence… "digging a hole"

If debating folks with different viewpoints is "digging" I believe it'd be for "deeper understanding".

You are all welcome to make your factual claims along with the more usual smear and insults. At worst we achieve a good LOL and at best there is learning.

I certainly have learned a few things here (some vaccine related, some about mindset and some about manners)

Really better try for some sleep before the work day begins but hope to resume the brilliant discussion with you all soon.

"the concept of getting injected with a shot when you have no say in the matter is a very heavy matter."

Eric, what shots do you believe people will be injected with while having no say over the matter? Has to be something other than vaccines.

Bob at #94

Sorry if I’m being thick, what is a DO?

A Doctor of Osteopathy. In the US, Osteopaths (DOs) are the equivalent of MDs. This is not true elsewhere. DOs do internships and residencies alongside of MDs.

I am hoping that there will be tracking of these exemptions for review by their professional governing body. Almost weekly I get asked to issue a medical contraindication certificate for Yellow Fever Vaccine for people who do not opt out of vaccination, and often money is offered. I have a single patient who I gave a certificate to (pregnancy, a true contraindication; and temporary).

For our medical exceptions, you must have a document issued, notarized, and put on file with the local public health unit for it to be valid. It's a huge hassle and weeds out people who are attempting to abuse the system.

Eric H - Consider the literature on Hepatitis A vaccine for example, it can be given up to 2 weeks after exposure with some positive benefits due to it's long incubation period. Post exposure Tetanus vaccination is beneficial.

Vaccines will not likely to be 100% safe, and after the disease is eradicated and the risks of those vaccines are disproportionate to the risk of the illness they will be discontinued. Until such time, vaccination is one of the safest, easiest and most effective methods of health promotion & illness prevention that exists today.

It looks like the sixth doctor mentioned, Dr. Ronald Schwartz, was murdered for the cash inside his home so no real relation to the vaccine wars.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

A tangent:

I work in an Early Intervention program, which serves and evaluates preschool children with IEPs, I don't see how any IEP can help get a medical exemption. Federal law doesn't specify that, the evaluation process doesn't look at the issue, and if a child needs a health plan in his school setting, that's put together between a local school district and his physician. The IEP and evaluation only look at how the child is functioning educationally compared to peers of his own age. *Why* the child might be delayed is not a consideration in the IEP process because institutions such as ours are not medical facilities. We are there just for the educational aspect of the child's life. Even if a child has a medical diagnosis, they still might not get an IEP if they can function at chronological age with their peers in a typical classroom environment.

in short, getting an IEP is not a medical issue, and is not grounds for any sort of medical exemption.

Furthermore, it's hard to get into a program with just a mild delay. By federal law, a child must show a developmental delay of at least 25% below his chronological age as measured by standardized testing. Any child can be tested, but a vast majority of children simply aren't going to be that far behind, even on a bad day. If the child passes the process, he does not get an IEP. A parent can fight it all they want, even taking it to arbitration, but unless there was an arithmetic goof up in calculating the score (which I've never seen in my years, but I could concede that such an honest mistake has probably happened somewhere at some time), there's really no case. Test scores don't lie, and they're designed to eliminate subjective factors. Whether or not a child can match his colors, count to 10, hop on one foot, pronounce a common word correctly, or do the multitude of other very simple tests are pretty clear cut.

While federal law does stipulated that FAPE (free access to public education) does apply, you can't just guarantee yourself into the classroom of your choice. Other local restrictions (such as having room in a classroom) still apply. Special education kids don't get to bump typically-developing peers out of spaces. The IDEA doesn't call for that because it would violate FAPE for typically developing children. The IEP status is not allowed to be taken into account and, in fact, its existence can't be shared by the Early Intervention program unless necessary for the child's IEP implementation . For example, the preschool teacher will almost certainly be aware of it because she's working with the child on certain goals, and probably sees any other specialists required such as a speech therapist who might come in during the week to work with the child. However, her administrators who actually decide which rooms the children are placed into won't be informed if they don't have an obvious need to know. As such, an IEP doesn't guarantee placement into any location. We have the permission to make other arrangements to serve in day cares, the home, specialized settings (if appropriate) or anywhere else a child would be placed if he was typically developing, but couldn't get into the local preschool program due to space restrictions.

Finally, the IEP doesn't circumvent restrictions for entry. If a school requires vaccinations, you can't just say, "I have an IEP" and they wave you in. It doesn't work like that. Paperwork required by programs is not circumvented. For example, Head Start funded programs have income guidelines proven by pay stubs. A Head Start funded site can still require these for attendance. School districts usually require proof of residency, IEP students still have to provide these. And so on, and so forth. There's no exemption for having an IEP because it's a separate issue.

Now, I do know of one federal law that can get around an immunization restriction in a classroom. It's guaranteed, hands-down, checkpoints be damned. It's federal law, so it trumps state laws. There's nothing any state or district can do about it, and I see it a few dozen times every year. But it is rare, it's drastic, and it isn't really something you can choose to pursue (well, you could, but you might very well be seen as an unfit parent if you pursue it on purpose, as opposed to circumstances being out of your control) . But it is a loop hole all the same. I just won't be hinting to Bobby Sears what it is.

What Dr. Bob recommends, though, is getting an IEP that specifies classroom time. Because of federal law, such a child could not be kept out of school, even with no vaccines. The provision in SB 277 appears to do nothing more than acknowledge that federal law trumps state law.

It looks like the sixth doctor mentioned, Dr. Ronald Schwartz, was murdered for the cash inside his home so no real relation to the vaccine wars.

Or so they want you to believe.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"capnkrunch… not sure if you genuinely misunderstood.

No, unfortunately, I understood perfectly well.

If you’ve not heard of this and the “affirmative consent” movement…

Affirmative consent is the only kind of consent. Just because she doesn’t say “no” doesn’t mean “yes”. Congratulations, you’re an antivaxxer and a rape apologist. Why not throw in a Holocaust and a slavery comparison so you hit the trifecta of misogyny, antisemitism, and racism."

Excellent straw man job there capn'! You're a true doctrinaire and an excellent disciple of Rules for Radicals. Keep up the great work.

The featured speakers for the Culver City Town Hall were:

*Melissa Floyd, who testified at the Assembly Health Committtee hearing. I think she teaches at a Community College in SoCal, but she was billed as a "data analyst". I wasn't at the Culver City gig, but saw some of the video footage; I think she was the one presenting the "long PowerPoint presentation full of antivaccine misinformation and errors that was over an hour long.".

*Eric Gladen -- he's the "Trace Amounts" director.

There may have been a Nation of Islam person in attendance; the quality of the video (a Periscope) I mostly listened to, rather than watched, was pretty poor.

I notice Eric H still hasn't answered my question: So, in your opinion, Eric H, based on your research, at what age are the immune and neurological systems “well-prepared”?

Also, and ignoring the troll, I am really disturbed by "Dr. Bob" encouraging parents to pretend that their children are "learning-disabled", thereby sopping up resources intended for children who really do need assistance, just because the parents don't want to protct their children against contagious diseases.

And, Julian Frost, it's not just that

“Vaccine choice” simply means refusing to keep up one’s end of the social contract and turning one’s children into vectors for diseases, placing the immunocompromised and those too young to be vaccinated at risk.

First and foremost they are putting their own children at risk. After all, their children can't pass on measles or the like unless they first get it and risk all the harm it can inflict on them.

Well, now that you mention it, since they are estimating it was around 1 million dollars it probably is a lie. Isn't that what is best to do when creating one? Go big or go home.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"Those of us playing mental “chess” are able to [whole-heartedly embrace a 'slippery slope' logical fallacy and imagine all sorts of unlikely outcomes]."

FTFY

Another interesting factor: all states require vaccination as a condition of school entry. Exemptions from those requirements are not rights; they are privileges granted by the state government. SB277 simply removed one of those privileges because it puts the community at increased risk of disease.

Ren:Personally, I've been advocating removing all vaccines from the woo pockets. If they're just going to whine, there's no sense wasting money or attempts at education on them. No demand for a service should lead to automatic withdrawal of the service, like closing parks and museums in red states.

Eric H: So, I'm guessing you were a former frat rat, and still a current predator. I wonder how many warrants you have piling up. Hope you don't have daughters.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

It looks like the sixth doctor mentioned, Dr. Ronald Schwartz, was murdered for the cash inside his home so no real relation to the vaccine wars.

Well sure ... that's what they want people to think ...

LOL.

I personally know individuals with vaccine injured children

Two simple questions, Eric:

What injuries do the parents believe their children suffered as a consequecne of vaccination?

How did those parents factually establish the injuries they believe their children suffered as a consequence of vaccination actually were caused by the vaccines the children recieved? (It is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procpter hoc logical fallacy.)

Congratulations to Orac on getting a new resident troll. I recall some of the past (Ph1Ph2, anyone?) that I haven't seen in quite a while. I also want to thank Mr Hanson, weren't it for he and the gruop of people he represents, my father, with his leukemia and subsequent bone marrow transplant, wouldn't have to be scared of catching diseases that would be long gone by today. But thanks to antivaccionists, he must limit his presence outside our house unless he wants to expose himself to a rather painful disease with high probabilities of leaving me, his 17 years old son, in the necessity of dropping out of university to raise my younger sibling. I am very thankful to Mr Hanson and other antivaxxers for giving my life such a thrill—living every day like it could be the last because the possibilities of it being the last are raised by them.

On a side note that doesn't drips sarcasm like my last paragraph, isn't it curious, even ironic, how, while referencing Orwell so much, Mr Hanson doesn't realise he's gone all the way to Huxley? By being so afraid of losing access to all points of view on information (Orwell-phobia?) he subscribes to all possible takes on reality, letting the sheer quantity of lies and misinformation drown the reality related POVs. After all, given any piece of data, the quantity of plausible takes is limited, the quantity of fiction and science fiction to be based on it—amounts to infinite. Isn't that the point Huxley made in the end? But I guess trying to show this to him isn't really possible. At least it was worth a try.

Right now I miss lilady, her take on the new resident antivaxxer would be the last nail to the coffin where his adherence to reality (or misinformation, he could be enlightened by her) will be buried. I know it's a little out of the blue, but I read some old posts a short time ago and saw her comments.

Anyways, any possible rebuttal I could give to Mr Hanson arguments has been said already and will most probably be taken as an ad hominem, so I'll just sit here and read how he stubbornly repeats the same rustled zombies of arguments while plainly ignoring the refutes and rebuttals. It's an... interesting sight, to say the least.

Eric, you believe your children are safe from Hep B because they are being raised in a clean home. Do your children never leave the house and do you deny any and all visitors entry until they have been tested?

Ah, but Diego -- as long as Mr Hanson is convinced that he and his children are safe, screw your dad.

(Who is probably a Meskin and an illegal alien, and not a real Murkin at all).

@ Diego:

Unfortunately, some of the alt media loons I survey CONTINUOUSLY refer to both Orwell and Huxley without realising how hilarious they appear.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Chris Hickie at #101

Is there a mechanism in place in SB277 to track which doctors are writing medical exemptions? I don’t see one in the text of the law, and that is worrisome

Each year, each school is required to report vaccine status for incoming kindergarteners; the data are collated and published as a spreadsheet, typically in January. I have been given to understand that the reporting forms are being revised for Fall 2015, specifically to disambiguate kids who are partially vaccinated (say, have 1 MMR) from those who are completely unvaccinated.

The form also records students with Personal Belief Exemptions (PBEs) and Permanent Medical Exemptions (PMEs). For the 2014-2015 reporting year, there were some odd clusters of PMEs in several counties outside of the high-PBE cluster areas.

I gather than the CADPH will be looking carefully at schools that have high PME clusters.

Thanks, Liz! (#131)

I sure hope CAPDH looks at clusters of these new SB277 physician-authored exemptions--with the caveat that the misguided parents who follow Sears are willing to drive long distances to see him, which would "uncluster" his exemptions. It's just too bad there wasn't a requirement that every exemption written had to have a copy filed by the writing physician with CADPH.

By Chris Hickie (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Ah, Shay, as far as Mr Hanson and his property... ehem, his children are safe, he might as well think that I'm just a Colombian, so most probably I wasn't going to do any good to this world, so who cares. That's just a side effect of that Mr and Mrs Smith movie portraying a city half the size of NYC as a lost village of bamboo and dirt. Yes, that's Bogota I'm talking about.

But wait, I'm drifting off topic here, racism gets me sometimes and I have to let it out my chest. Anyways, yes, I guess his pretend safety is more important than our actual safety, but that's how the world rolls. All is about liberty and safety until the foreigner dares to claim some for himself.

Also, sorry for my constant use of passive voice, I've always had problems with transliteration and passive forms are what resembles the most my first language.

Denice, I couldn't survey loons long enough to listen to them talk about authors they don't really handle. Is like listening to my college commies say how we must wage war on capitalism and Yankee imperialism and how Marx will save us all—that is, unbearable for an engineering student. I'm to subjected to reality to listen to such fantasies before wanting to stop and refute everything

Oy. Judging by the blood-slathered jaws of the minions and disgusting troll entrails everywhere, I'd say we have a new chew toy today. Honestly, you guys are worse than the hatchlings for playing with your food.

Still, gotta love how our host puts up a post pointing out how the antivax movement is a warped ideology powered by sociopaths and liars, and instantly one of them charges in and helpfully proves him right. What a star.

Dr Bob has been fairly open about his intention to 'game' the system for profit at the expense of his patient's health. Nice. I wonder if Dr Jay will be as forthcoming?

If these greed and ignorance based exemptions are 'milled' so easily then won't that defeat the point of the bill and allow another Disney episode? The pockets of low uptake will still exist and thereby provide ample ground for a new epidemic.

Diego, I listen as a public service in order to warn people about their antics
AND I often find their nonsense hilarious.

I seem, curiously, to be quite immune from being harmed emotionally or intellectually despite the frightening amount of nonsense I ingest. I suppose I inherited this quality from my progenitors who managed to survive in various businesses for the past century and a half- at least.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Thanks to Eric H. for demonstrating NoCal AV lunacy isn't limited to the post-Hippie naturalist fallacy crowd. Yup, we've got our troglodyte wing-nuts just over the hill. Marin and Berkeley hereby thank Eric for making them appear bastions of enlightened science by comparison .

When the Disneyland outbreak hit, and again now after the passage of SB277, I hypothesized vax rates would improve more in the more 'liberal' clusters than in the 'conservative' clusters. Mainly as I guessed there were more fence-sitters in the Whole-Foods non-vax contingent, and more true-believers in the 'parents-righst!' contingent, as I take anti-vax dogma to be significantly more compatible with rightist beliefs generally (not that inconsistency troubles true believers, but....)

So it's interesting this vehemence comes from Dublin... which, for anyone not familiar with the area is right next to Livermore... So, maybe it's an effect of radiation or something.

If I wound up in some fancy government gulag and were faced with sharing a cell with some villain prone to the variety of rape that’s quietly accepted as part of a prison sentence, and some frequency of needle injections by the gulag “doctor”, I believe I’d be not unreasonable to be equally terrified of both.

I believe this remark reveals more than Eric might think. Get out of the closet, dude! Move to Polk Street. Let that freak flag fly. You might be able to convince Peter Ackworth to start a Medical Violations fetish porn site....

Completely OT, but this is so hilarious I just had to share, especially since we're already off topic and I'm sure I'm not the only one who needs some comedic relief to cleanse my palate of Eric "it's not rape if she can't say no" Hansen. I popped into TMR to see what the Drinking Moms were up to, and found a "study" they participated in "validating" the effectiveness of the IonCleanse footbath for autism. Yep, that IonCleanse footbath. I was naively hoping that at least one of the commenters would have the sense and/or guts to point out that it's just a slightly-more-sophisticated-and-considerably-more-expensive version of the infamous Kinoki foot pads, but so far the comments have been uniformly positive.

@ Sarah A:

Have you looked at how they measured 'improvement'?

-btw- this was mentioned at the Autism One "Recovery' Panel in which many of the regulars participated.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@politicalguineapig, you really work at making people dislike you, don't you?

If there were areas where everyone rejected vaccines -- which there aren't -- then there would be no need to withdraw vaccines from that area. The reason you want to withdraw vaccines is to spitefully injure those people who don't reject vaccines but dare to live in a place that you despise.

So why don't you just acknowledge that you want the opportunity to gloat over dead children of people you despise, and be done with it?

Shay #128

Quite: one of the main reasons I had to have Hep B vaccination for work was because of the risk of acquiring hepatitis from assault by a patient (didn't work, I'm a non-responder), which was also why I had to undergo Hep C screening one time. There is a lot of it out there.

And Eric can lose some more points for misappropriating Orwell.

Man, all this happens after I take some time out to watch the Tour de France.

Politicalguineapig @124

Ren:Personally, I’ve been advocating removing all vaccines from the woo pockets.

As a parent who lives near one of those “ woo pockets,” I find your advocacy even more despicable than true anti-vaxxers, and I’m really glad no one takes you seriously.

Denice@130:

Unfortunately, some of the alt media loons I survey CONTINUOUSLY refer to both Orwell and Huxley without realising how hilarious they appear.

Indeed. The only time a screeching right-wing zealot like Eric Hansen would ever have seen eye-to-eye with a raging socialist like Mr Orwell would have been down the barrel of a gun in the Spanish Civil War.

But then, not exactly world experts on actual reality, are they?

@ Chemmomo:

I tried so hard to get through to her. We can only hope she'll eventually see the light.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Diego -- your command of English is so exceptional, I made the mistake of assuming you were a resident of the US. I consider myself reasonably fluent in French and German but no one would ever take me for a native.

(Of course, a Chinese colleague of mine once informed me that I spoke very good English for an American. She meant it as a compliment).

There are so many wonderful, effective cures out there for autism (chelation, GcMaf injections, bleach enemas, ion footbaths) that it amazes me there are any autistic people left.

@shay

Yes, so many miraculous cures. But if cure X doesn't work for you, you're just not doing it right, or maybe it's not the one for you. Just keep trying. If you don't, then you've just given up and it's all your fault. Keep trying until you find the one that works, you die, or you run out of money (then just start getting other people to pony up the cash).

Gee, one wonders if this is the same Eric Hanson as our new chew toy:

http://articles.mercola.com/members/EricLarsHanson/default.aspx

If so, we have a Mercola fan boy in our midst. Thanks to my reader who pointed this out. :-)

Here's an example of his commentary on Mercola.com in an article entitled American Medical Association Supports the Elimination of Parents’ Right to Make Vaccine Choices, and California Takes Another Step Toward Medical Tyranny:

Vile thugs of the corrupted government medical complex forcing live virus and neurotoxins via unconscionable threats... spreading virus to "eradicate" for "greater good". Any injection, whether semen or shoddy shots performed less consent is at the very least rape, if not bio-chemical assault.

So now vaccine clear kids... the ones NOT shedding the latest stew of live virus, will be marginalized and kicked out of everything from Pre-K through College and even "Places of Work" per this vile thug in Sacramento (and with the full support of the AMA). To pass this insidious bill, they'll lie that we can "home school".

For the fools playing mental shoots and ladders, that might seem OK and a basis to argue "you're not being FORCED to get shots". For those playing mental chess, we see the next moves. Conversations have already started... "well... if they can't be safe to have next to our kids in school... what about the park, pool, plane, museum, theater?" And the same vile liars offering the "alternative" to "home school" are already working to outlaw that practice.

Anyone see a problem yet? This is not "tyranny lurking around the corner"... the is the government boot on our necks!

When Obamacare was being pushed, my concern was redistribution of health and a modern day Logans Run with euthanasia in place of healing, and government tracking every bit of private health data to be kept "safe" like the IRS does with our financial records.

and of course the obvious concerns of "targeting" on the decisions concerning "who lives and who dies" for "greater good".

Somehow I missed the most Orwellian of nightmare to follow... government access to directly inject the populace with whatever they decide "safe and effective", while CDC and the other conspirators scrub data on the countless cases of harm and the only true "immunity" is for the vaccine makers. All payouts are on the tax payer.
Visit "DickPan is a Bully and a coward" on FB to share your thoughts

Lovely.

As for the notion that “home schooling” is the “out” and excuse to declare that “shots are not mandatory”, that only works for those playing mental “Shoots and Ladders”. Those of us playing mental “chess” are able to see the next moves aren't even able to spell our analogies.

FTFY.

"As far as I’m concerned, he’s become just like doctors who run prescription mills or sell prescriptions for medical marijuana"

Worse, IMO. Someone making bank to enable kids to circumvent the law in order to lie on the couch watching cartoons and eating Cheetos is unethical, but someone making bank to enable parents to continue to create unvaccinated clusters and contribute to suffering and death is a monster.

Isn't one of the tenets of AP that mums should never let their kids be unhooked from their body and breast until college? Shouldn't he be telling all of his 'vaccine-educated' patients to pull their kids and homeschool? I guess there's no money in that.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

The one good thing is - if Sears and Co start issuing medical exemption letters on a large scale they leave a true paper trail. Combined with the documented commercial interest in providing these "services" that leaves them open to a lot of lawsuits in case of outbreaks and sanctions by appropriate medical boards. And CA is not known for being short on lawyers.

JoeT: "By federal law, a child must show a developmental delay of at least 25% below his chronological age as measured by standardized testing."

When my oldest son went through the ChildFind process over twenty years ago I was told it was two standard deviations below the mean. Also, they would not see him until he was within a few weeks of this third birthday.

It is not easy qualifying for an IEP, and keeping one is not guaranteed. Eligibility is reevaluated every three years.

Both of my sons qualified for an IEP as preschoolers. The younger son had a significant language delay, but he was not admitted to a self-contained special ed. classroom. Instead I had to bring to the school once a week for a half hour session with the speech therapist. He also got low cost twice a week therapy from student clinicians at the local university. By the time he was ready for kindergarten he was scoring just below the norm and the IEP was removed. He took AP classes in high school, including both years of AP Calculus (A and B), and entered college with several credits. He earned a degree in math with a minor in applied math, and has a very good job.

The older son had an IEP through out his high school education, and had disability services at the community college. We are working with the state social services to get him supported employment. Plus we are working on getting him a Special Needs Trust.

Dr. Bob and his Special Snowflake patients really do not have a clue.

"aren't even able to spell our analogies."

When I saw him towing the line, I thought of you all.

Looks like Orac has discovered our little troll over at Mercola's house......wow, crazies of a feather flock together.

Affirmative consent is the only kind of consent. Just because she doesn’t say “no” doesn’t mean “yes”.

That doesn't mean that if she doesn't say yes it means no. And if you think it does, you don't understand what affirmative consent is.

I'd say you managed to profile him well. Sounds like the same person but I will stand on what he wrote here. Btw, I do have to get him props for using his real name.

My next question for him is why stop by now? No. I am not thinking conspiracy. I just wonder about the motivation to start commenting on sites like this if someone has been involved in the alt med world for any length of time, but perhaps he just found you.

OT: A profile tied to comments someone has made or even a list of comments a particular individual has made is very nice. Ever consider that functionality for this site?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Affirmative consent is the only kind of consent. Just because she doesn’t say “no” doesn’t mean “yes”.

Would you like it if a large, hairy man decided to test that principle with you?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I may have missed this, but are fraudulent medical exemptions illegal? If so, under what law? I would think you'd need to give a reason for a medical exemption, and "parent is concerned about risks" may not be sufficient for the courts.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Bob #92 - in the U.S., a doctor of osteopathic medicine (not a diplomate of osteopathy, as in Commonwealth and other countries) is a degree alternative to MD. It is a professional and legal equivalent to an MD. Osteopathy originated in the late 1800s when medicine was less organized and was created out of the belief that skeletal abnormalities caused most or all disease. It shares some similarities with chiropractic but the key distinction is that DOs embraced changes in medicine and now practice evidence based medicine, perform surgery etc. A few still focus on musculoskeletal problems exclusively but they are in the extreme minority. Fewer than 10% of American DOs perform manipulation on a regular basis.

By bluedevilRA (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Gray Falcon

The relevant law would appear to be here, starting at section 471.

I work for the Los Angeles School District. I was there at this meeting and was able to record it. This information has been passed on to other school districts in the area and we are keeping an eye on people trying to lie and cheat the system. We will be keeping our eye out for exemptions and asking for clarification. And if we don't get the answers we like, they will not be admitted.

By oceanlily (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Eric H, #46:

I’ll assume I may respond in my usual civil manner (somewhat unique on this thread)

And #64:

In most of my experience those without argument pursue this sort of smear in place of a more meaningful contribution.

Yet you start at #1 with:

Wow Orac. Just finished reading your one-sided BS with closed comment section that’s obviously been scrubbed

And continue addressing Orac as:

same jackal advocating for outright medical tyranny and no consent whatsoever along with the usual run of smear

You're not very self-aware, are you?

By Rich Woods (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me about some info I heard while receiving chemo last week. I did some research but as nadir is setting in I just don't have the energy. Bear with the long I tro. Overheard a fellow chemo recipient(could have been care giver-didn't really pay attention until nurses started talking). Anyway she was thanking the antivaxxer gods that her child didn't have the chicken pox vaccine because she knew of a friend of a friend whose child died after receiving varicella. According tone nurse this patient claimed her doctor told hear that 30%

Late to the party, but 'way upthread our chewtoy referred to how Bill Gates wants to reduce CO2 emissions by depopulation.

Cue the Twilight Zone music .... or Weird Al's "Aluminum Foil" video.

By palindrom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Sorry, didn't mean to post onward... That 30% of girls have a cardiovascular "issue" that if exposed to varicella will kill them...? The nurse was a bit of a ditz so not sure if she got the info right. What in the hell is she referring to? Anybody have any idea?

Narad,

You've probably heard of Eats, Shoots & Leaves. It's one of my favorite books although don't hold me to it. I can't recall much of it and my grammar usage has always been problematic.

Right now my greatest wish is to keep the Oxford comma alive. Co-workers have pretty much abandoned it.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Haven't heard that one, Beth -- although the CDC and the FDA are in the pocket of Big Pharma and only recommend vaccines because they are paid to do so*, I think that any vaccine with the propensity to cause death in that percentage of children, would not have made it onto the market. Or if it had, like the earlier rotavirus and pertussis vaccines, they'd be pulled when the death reports started to come in.

*Yes, that's sarcasm.

@Denice, Diego: In many cases their familiarity with Orwell is understandable. They seem to be using 1984 as an operations manual.

I have scrolled past Eric H's posts, as I normally do with trolls. Judging from what other commenters have said, that seems to have been a good move for my mental health. And I perceive that he has ignored Orac's hint way back at post 86:

I am amused. For now. I don’t guarantee that my amusement will continue indefinitely.

I can't speak for my namesake, but I'd consider that a sign that I had crossed a line.

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Anyway, at least one nurse made the attempt to get more info; the other just thought it was horrible California was making parents have their children receive vaccinations ala Eric. The way I see it if you're too lazy to home school your children when you Believe in something so strongly, you're too lazy to keep them away from public places like stores,movie theaters, Disneyland, etc. I thought Public Health was to protect the public. Silly me...I really wanted to lay into the one nurse(I may still) about doing evil Big Pharma's dirty work of infusing us all with chemotherapy-I mean if you're going to drink the kool-aid...

Well this is kind of entertaining, it appears the troll du jour has also claimed that smart meters were harming his parents until they removed it from their house:

http://www.theblaze.com/user/eric-lars-hanson/

I find it funny that he is trying to get smart meters removed from his housing development. Anyone else crack up thinking about this guy at an HOA meeting?

That 30% of girls have a cardiovascular “issue” that if exposed to varicella will kill them…?

I did a quick search of Teh Googles and found nothing even vaguely like that. On the face of it, it would seem that we would have noticed if 30% of girls who got chicken pox were dying.

But if so - so much for chicken pox being a harmless disease and a rite of childhood!

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I accepted for my own kids the MMR and several other vaccines that, in retrospect (based on subsequent research) were likely more risk than benefit, but rightfully rejected Hep B vaccine, since could not imagine a kid raised in a clean home having much risk of exposure outside of a day-care environment where overly small kids are virtually gnawing on one another’s eyeballs.

shay, not only do Eric's kids not ever leave the safety and comfort of their clean home, but they don't mingle with those dirty daycare kids, either.

Yet another privileged ignoramus proving that vaccine rejection is a status symbol.

I personally know individuals with vaccine injured children

And I don't personally know any vaccine injured children. Such is the power of anecdata.

And infant mortality rates correlate to high vaccination rates.

"Trigger warning" - citation needed.

@Denice Walter #139

You mean the fact that their "evidence" for improvement is a parental survey filled out by the TM's themselves? Of course! Why waste time with double blinding or objective endpoints when you can go directly to the font of all Truth: parental opinion (aka Mommy Instinct?) I also noticed that over half of the kids were teens and pre-teens - I wonder how many of them were verbal? Did it never occur to anyone to ask them how they felt? Though to be fair, there's plenty of conventional, science-based research out there that overlooks that minor detail as well.

Leave it to Dr. Bob Sears to suggest acquiring an IEP for bogus diagnoses (which I'm sure he'd also be happy to provide for another evaluation fee) so the CA speshul snowflakes can remain "pure". Sadly, he won't be the only one to game the system and profit from it. Congrats Dr. Bob, you're now in the same league as Rx painkiller mills. I hope that school admins receive some additional training and resources to track PBEs that suddenly become PMEs rather than just rely upon the number of PMEs. Then again, what's the point if the CA Medical Board isn't poised to do anything about it.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I work for the Los Angeles School District. I was there at this meeting and was able to record it. This information has been passed on to other school districts in the area and we are keeping an eye on people trying to lie and cheat the system. We will be keeping our eye out for exemptions and asking for clarification. And if we don’t get the answers we like, they will not be admitted.

Oceanlily, while this would be great if school districts can pull it off, how prepared are schools to deny medical exemptions they suspect are fraudulent? Sorry but I'm skeptical that this will happen.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Oh my. I'm about halfway through the comments, and I think Eric H has already managed to fill out my Wackaloon Bingo card.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Just pointed out the troll's comments to a few docs and nurses at the hospital. All had a good laugh at his/her/its expense.

EBMOD... Yes indeed. Any expressed concerns on well documented health effects and undeniable privacy concerns associated with SmartMeters sure ends the debate on mandatory shots. Keep up the great investigative work!

Well anyway since you brought it up you can potentially learn something from more "quacks" and privacy advocates here... https://www.facebook.com/smartmeteraction Feel free to chime in there if you have nothing to offer here on the topic under discussion.

jkrideau, it's a terrible situation. A few of my colleagues are in Benakuma at present. It's not just refusal, there are other reasons as to why there are unvaccinated pockets, like parents forgetting, being unable to get to the clinic for various reasons...plus Cameroon hasn't had a measles epidemic in a few years so people get a bit complacent.

Hey Eric, you're back! Hope you were still able to sell some cars today despite your poor night's sleep.
It's always funny to see an antivaxxer's warped perception of these comment threads. "Comment battle," LOL

Feel free to chime in there if you have nothing to offer here on the topic under discussion.

You mean like you're doing? By the way, Dr. Pan goes by Richard, not Dick. Are you twelve years old?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I am always fascinated and saddened that anti-vaccination arguments always hint at "dirty, diseases immigrants" as the real fear for everyone.

One, because it is xenophobic and shameful. Two, because they miss the intermediary step. It isn't just immigrants. It is Americans coming home from abroad, tourists from other countries with their own special snowflakes with superior immune systems that are too delicate for vaccines. But special snowflakes collide and one is in the most infectious stage of the disease and special snowflake #2 is more likely to be infected and share the disease with others (anti-vaccine activists can't honestly say they don't believe an infected child doesn't get an unvaccinated child sick - that is the motivation for their pox parties). As long as these viruses keep finding susceptible hosts, the virus continues to spread. Sometimes I feel sorry for a lot of parents caught up in this. Scary common child illnesses have grown so rare that they don't know the complications or anxiety of having your child infected and watching for complications, so when confronted with the hysteria that is the "safe vaccine" movement (eye roll - all on the schedule are demonstrably more safe than the illness), a scientifically naive parent can be expected to go check it out on the easiest to access information source - the internet. If they get a few suggestions from the person warning them of the dangers... suddenly they are confronted by Null's trilogy, Natural News, NVIC and whale.to. Misinformation breeds some fence sitters, others as radical.converts.

I do end up angry at the people making millions on "autism recovery/biomed," detoxing and whatever other stuff they are selling while planting as much distrust and doubt as possible in real science. They line their own pockets at the expense of credulous people who only want to do the best for their children.

Hey Eric, you’re back! Hope you were still able to sell some cars today despite your poor night’s sleep.

Eric is a car salesman? Yah, perfectly qualified to "research" vaccinology.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric H- Keep tilting at windmills there buddy. I'm sure your efforts are accomplishing a lot.

Ever heard of the term 'crank magnetism'?

But Eric is also part of the "Californians FOR SB277". Yeah, he's a total false flag operation in the making. It wouldn't surprise me if he ended up being employed by Big Pharma.

Eric, can you prove that you are who you think you are?

Mr Hanson clearly has never met a conspiracy theory he didn't like.

How the state of California manages exemption fraud remains to be seen; anyone here from Missouri or West Virginia who can speak to their experience?

But whereas I may have researched more deeply than most Kaiser MD’s, I hardly consider my education on the subject complete

Maybe you can research more deeply when you've made your quota for the month.

Yes indeed! Lots of joy all around! Always such a pleasure being the contrary voice in such a collectivist den of Borg. Anyway I'm now refreshed and ready for the next rounds of teaching or learning depending on how it goes. Any friend of Tim can't be all bad.

I was all set to write a comment about how hard it was for disabled kids in the bad old days before the IDEA act and IEPs,then our new toy troll dropped in.Don't be a stranger Eric,now that you've been found out.

I just thought I'd draw your attention to this post at Dr.Bob's Facebook page.He is basically saying bring in as many kids you want at a clip,so Dr.Bob can write up as many fake IEPs and PMEs as he can at $180 a whack.Clearly this is something parents have been asking Dr. Bob about.

Talk about an "exception mill".

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric--the two questions I asked you about the parents of vaccine-injured children you know--any chance you'll provide an answer?

To refresh your memory:
What injuries do the parents believe their children suffered as a consequence of vaccination?

How did the parents factually establish the injuries they believe their children suffered as a consequence of vaccination actually were caused by the vaccines their children recieved?

Hi, Eric! You still haven't answered my questions. How come? I'm sure you have SOME good research that proves your point.

Oh, and by the way...can you also tell me WHY the US has a higher infant mortality rate than most other first-world countries? I'll give you a hint as to part of the reason - it's in the definition of stillbirth.

@has: Sorry. Mommy always yelled at us for playing with our food, but it is SO much fun. And the hatchlings helped make the mess!

Science Mom ... And here I thought "Dick" and 'Richard" were two forms of the same name at most any age (even over 12). Anyway I had the personal displeasure of interfacing with Dr. Pan and clearly he lives up to the shortened form.

But anyway glad you have such a close relationship with the vile Sacramento bully in all the splendor and awe of his cognitive dissonance.

Still waiting for a citation on

And infant mortality rates correlate to high vaccination rates

, Eric H.

his cognitive dissonance

What specifically is dissonant?

Eric says: Science Mom … And here I thought “Dick” and ‘Richard” were two forms of the same name at most any age (even over 12). Anyway I had the personal displeasure of interfacing with Dr. Pan and clearly he lives up to the shortened form

And that just goes to show that you have no sense of common courtesy. If someone goes by their full name, it's very rude to shorten it. Thus, my friend Elizabeth is Elizabeth, not Beth, Betsy, or any other diminutive.

More and more what I now expect of you. I imagine you are as rude in real life as you are on the internet.

Shaw, wow, thanks for the compliment. I guess the 6 years taking 10 weekly hours of English classes and the little fortune spent in common european framework books (I'm technically C1) was worth it after all. And well, I think his continous references to Orwell without noticing Huxley in himself give ourselves an idea of his self-awareness (or lack thereof).

On the other hand, it's a funny chew toy, but, as Orac said, the constant disrespectful analogies to rape aren't funny. As someone whos girlfriend has had a history of physical and psychological abuse and rape, I've seen much of its effects (the worst time being one when I accidentally triggered her) and I can say that it's at the very least insulting to compare the long recovery process we've been going through to vaccinating a child. The lost trust, the lack of support, the low self-esteem and the constant doubt and fear of everyone, known and unknown isn't a thing I would wish to anyone, not even you, Mr Hanson.

And, Eric (Lund), yes, one can understand why are people like Adams and Tenpenny so aware of Orwell, if they are applying the same techniques of limited access to information in the most brilliant of ways (instead of making it impossible to see data that contradicts them, they brainwash their followers to believe that no one else is right but them). They're so alienated that they can't identify the Orwell and Huxley techniques in how they're... how would I say? indoctrinated, I guess. Another point for having the self-awareness of a stone. But oh well, I guess it comes with the tinfoil hat

MI Dawn

I've never presented myself as committed to an anti-vax point of view. I am however extremely serious about medical choice and informed consent.

For now it seems to me that some vaccines cause more harm then good, but the burden of proof is on the advocate of mandatory shots, not the man with the audacity to claim right of refusal on any product including vaccines.

Even if every last bit of the present schedule of shots are proven a clear cause for "greater good", the notion that there is a "social contract" for me to accept someone else's idea of "good medicine" is both ridiculous and the pursuit of it, dangerous.

If there is such a "social contract" as someone else on the thread suggested, I'd sure like to see where my signature appears. The investigative "who's who" research here is excellent so it shouldn't take long to find.

JoeT at #114: Thanks for the great explanation of how Early Intervention & IEPs work.

I think you have some confusion about Bob's IEP-seeking advice. It isn't that an IEP gives a medical exemption; it's that the law exempts unvaccinated kids with IEPs from some restrictions.

Section 120335 the Health and Safety Code

(h)This section does not prohibit a pupil who qualifies for an individualized education program, pursuant to federal law and Section 56026 of the Education Code, from accessing any special education and related services required by his or her individualized education program.

This was a late amendment to the bill, added as I recall at the behest of Assemblymember Adrin Nazarian. Also as I recall, the opposition to SB277 had some confused claims about kids with IEPs and their vaccination status. Something about how all kids with IEPs have "vaccine injuries" and would be excluded from school should SB277 pass.

This was all nonsense of course, but it seemed that Pan, Allen, and Gonzalez were willing to make this rather low-impact amendment in order to secure Nazarian's vote.

I'm not sure how it is in California, but in Illinois it's really difficult to get an IEP. Children have to meet a host of criteria AND the school has to be willing to go through the lengthy and expensive process of issuing one. Often, professional advocates are needed to push the IEP process.

For Dr. Bob to suggest parents simply try and obtain an IEP is ridiculous and puts unnecessary strain on an already overburdened system.

Diego- I too can relate to your girlfriend's experience. My wife was raped when she was in her early twenties and ended up pregnant from the rape. She carried the child to term and put her up for adoption. She just turned ten and is doing very well with her new family. We were only dating at the time and it was the hardest thing I've ever gone through emotionally. We now have three kids of our own who are doing very well...

And yeah, Eric is a sociopathic fool for belittling rape and trying to equate it to vaccination. Not even the same ballpark.

If given the choice between what my wife and I went through, and vaccination, if Eric claims he would choose what I went through over vaccination, he's a god damn liar.

Anyway, considering Eric's inability to respond cogently to any direct questions that would require him to espouse specific knowledge (he sure likes his vague, unfalsifiable generalities), I leave with this quote from Bertrand Russell:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

it seems to me that some vaccines cause more harm then good

Which ones? What's your evidence?

the notion that there is a “social contract” for me to accept someone else’s idea of “good medicine” is both ridiculous and the pursuit of it, dangerous.

This is a statement, not an argument. Why is it ridiculous? Why is it dangerous? How do you feel about seatbelt laws?

The investigative “who’s who” research here is excellent

That's what you get for publicly posting your moronic views all over the internet. Honestly it took 30 seconds to find your public profiles.
I notice you deleted that comment I linked to, by the way. Sorry you had to do that, being a mindless contrarian's a lot less fun when you don't brag about it to your friends!

So far I've learned here that there are really bad "snake oil" salesman that make wildly false documentaries like "Silent Epidemic" to fool folks from taking shots so that they might be better customers for vitamins!

I've not yet heard any refutation to any of the points in the aforementioned documentary. Just smear on the parties involved.

If there are complete falsehoods presented it should be easy to point them out one by one... or at least a few examples.

While I await that level of detailed refutation of the "wild" claims made there, I'm left a bit puzzled how folks might believe that folks that had all their shots might somehow reject vitamin supplements. Is there perhaps a better explanation of your own conspiracy theory about the campaign to ruin everyone's health by talking them out of shots? I'm here to learn just as much as to teach (that's the usual purpose of debate) so I sure don't mind whatever deeper wisdom any of you might care to share.

"If there is such a “social contract” as someone else on the thread suggested, I’d sure like to see where my signature appears. The investigative “who’s who” research here is excellent so it shouldn’t take long to find."

Think of it this way. The rest of us who don't want our children to be assaulted by vaccine preventable disease have effectively banded together and said that those who do not vaccinate are not welcome to be around our children. That is all SB277 accomplishes. So the social contract is one you must sign with US if you want YOUR kids around OUR kids...

I assume that the FB page "DickPan is a Bully and a coward" belongs to Eric.

A veritable waterfall of crazy.

I particularly enjoyed this comment:

Thanks to this evil and/or uninformed tool of the elite driven government-medical complex, I have to explain to a 5 year old girl that was absolutely excited about her starting Kindergarden how that will no longer be possible

The only truthful explanation would be "daddy is a conspiracy addled crackpot, so you can't go to kindergarten".

Hopefully the child wasn't traumatized.

I reject the social contract as well. I am an excellent drunk driver.

I’ve never presented myself as committed to an anti-vax point of view

You really aren't very self-aware. BTW, any chance you'll answer any of Delphine or Dawn's questions?

What injuries do the parents believe their children suffered as a consequence of vaccination?

I am pretty sure it was the Senate Health Committee where parent after parent coached their children to refer to themselves as "vaccine damaged" or "vaccine injured". The conditions ranged from ADHD, asthma, eczema, type 1 diabetes, MS, autism (of course), learning disabilites, etc etc etc etc etc

Science Mom … And here I thought “Dick” and ‘Richard” were two forms of the same name at most any age (even over 12). Anyway I had the personal displeasure of interfacing with Dr. Pan and clearly he lives up to the shortened form.

Except he doesn't go by the nickname so who's being the dick here?

But anyway glad you have such a close relationship with the vile Sacramento bully in all the splendor and awe of his cognitive dissonance.

Don't even know the man, just pointing out your childish imbecility. And oh poor you...big bad State Senators who sponsor bills you don't like are bullies. You obviously don't know the meaning of that word either. Your list is getting rather long there Eric the car salesman.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I’ve not yet heard any refutation to any of the points in the aforementioned documentary.

Nobody here is going to 'refute' every point in an entire movie. You are far from the first to bring that up as a source, and it's been thoroughly savaged many times here both by Orac and commentators.

What specific argument made in the documentary was particularly convincing for you? Let's start with that.

Eric said: For now it seems to me that some vaccines cause more harm then good, but the burden of proof is on the advocate of mandatory shots, not the man with the audacity to claim right of refusal on any product including vaccines

So, like all anti-vaxxers, it's all personal belief. Eric: the rules are, you made the claim, YOU show the proof. The burden of proof is not on those who advocate vaccine are safe. We HAVE the research - world wide, not just USA. But you are making an opposing claim. Therefore, the burden of proof is on YOU to show the current vaccine schedule is not safe.

AdamG... thank you for that. Ideas stand or fall on merit. I think most of us like a little separation between our exercises in intellectual curiosity and private lives when possible. Anyway the world is a small place and your leveraging a common FB friendship to share personal information here is a bit more than over the top.

Eric,
I doubt that most of Orac's commenters have seen that film and I have not memorised each point, having seen it once

HOWEVER, I can assure you that most of its talking points- as well as its cast of participants HAVE been adequately dealt with by Orac and his devoted minions.

Just list
- the points you refer to in that film OR
- the speakers and/ or their respective points of view OR
- what seems especially salient to you

In addition, we can use the search function above to find specific targets which we have already addressed.

I can assure you that there is indeed nothing new under the sun,
and that includes places under rocks from which people like Gary Null have crawled.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Listen you bleating sheep, maybe if you didn't post your real name and location everywhere on the web when espousing your tinfoil hat views, this wouldn't be an issue for you. Nobody is harassing you, Eric H. This is what you put out there, in public, for the whole world to see. Get a grip on what that means before you start reaming out AdamG. And maybe try answering some of the questions you've been asked while you're at it.

MI Dawn ... seriously? OK. In that case suppose I decide I'm going to come to you with a shot I declare "safe and effective", unless you can prove to me that it's dangerous. Does this somehow strike you as logical?

your leveraging a common FB friendship to share personal information here

The comment I linked to was public, cupcake. I'm not even on Facebook.

Also pretty funny that you think watching one Gary null documentary qualifies as "intellectual curiosity"

"MI Dawn … seriously? OK. In that case suppose I decide I’m going to come to you with a shot I declare “safe and effective”, unless you can prove to me that it’s dangerous. Does this somehow strike you as logical?"

Until you commit to a stance and posit specific evidence for your position, you are just speaking in overly broad generalities.

Of course, you are doing that because I think you know well that anti-vaxx arguments only look good from 15 feet, get too close and the flaws become readily apparent.

So it's put up or shut up time. List what you think are the best specific evidences for your argument...

Eric: if you can give me hundreds or thousands of peer-reviewed research articles stating your shot is safe and effective, then sure. Give it to me. However, I'm not trusting YOUR word alone. Otherwise, I can declare it dangerous because there is NO PROOF that your shot is safer and more effective than having whatever disease it prevents.

Delphine... "before you start reaming out AdamG" that's a fancy description. Anyway all that think views expressed on any thread should be complete with home address, cell and whatever else you think might be fair game to share based on finding something on a friends FB might lead by example.

Generally the "bleating sheep" would be the ones counting themselves part of a "herd", but there are many interesting contradictions in the mind of collectivists.

Anyway you may not agree with all doctors and individuals. Whereas it would be ideal we might come to common understanding via debate, we aren't quite on the same page yet. Are vaccines the best thing on Earth... to the point that the Renaissance couldn't have happened without? Perhaps. Perhaps Not. Should one group impose their "superior" understanding on another by pressuring and forcing them to take whatever the all-so-trustworthy state declares "safe and effective". Absolutely not.

Is this all so hard to understand?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

I think most of us like a little separation between our exercises in intellectual curiosity and private lives when possible

You plaster yourself all over the internet and then whine when people point out that you espouse ideas that -- to put it mildly -- range from the mildly ridiculous to the weapons-grade insane?

And the burden of proof is on you. You claim that some vaccines are unsafe and unnecessary, it's up to you to prove your point. That's why you see "citation needed" on these threads. Which vaccines are unnecessary, which are unsafe, and where are the safety studies that support your POV?

Invoking Tuskegee does nothing to prove your point that vaccines are unsafe.

Hey kids, remember when vaccines caused the Renaissance?

If anyone is up for a little diversion, there is an article at CBC that has attracted some particularly dim anti-vaxers in the comments.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/measles-vaccinations-of-toddlers-at-89-be…

I suspect comments will close soon.
I've frittered away about enough time there already, and I probably should go write my address on some hatches (battening-down being futile) in case the warned-of tornado arrives and carries them off to Saskatchewan.

"Eric: if you can give me hundreds or thousands of peer-reviewed research articles stating your shot is safe and effective, then sure. Give it to me. However, I’m not trusting YOUR word alone. Otherwise, I can declare it dangerous because there is NO PROOF that your shot is safer and more effective than having whatever disease it prevents."

I think you just made my point... the burden of proof would be on me to prove the shot beneficial and adequately effective to outperform any risks. The person to make the determination to accept or reject by whatever combination of trust and proof would be the patient. And that is called "informed consent" which apparently makes most of the folks here very uncomfortable.

shay "Invoking Tuskegee does nothing to prove your point that vaccines are unsafe."

You are right... but it does prove a point whether the government can be trusted to decide which shots we should all get.

Adam G... "Hey kids, remember when vaccines caused the Renaissance?" Obviously the all so subtle sarcasm was missed. Otherwise great work!

Anyway all that think views expressed on any thread should be complete with home address, cell and whatever else you think might be fair game to share based on finding something on a friends FB might lead by example.

You're the one who put your name and location on your public posts, Eric H. Just because you apparently lack understanding of what constitutes publicly available information and how it may be used in a manner I didn't anticipate doesn't mean that I do.

As for the rest of your blather, I usually pray for a cure for tuberculosis, malaria, HIV/AIDS, but tonight I'm gonna pray for a cure for Dunning-Kruger.

Hey kids, remember when vaccines caused the Renaissance?

DEAD

Shay... on #222... seriously it is amazing how many think the patient has an imagined burden to "prove" to the bullies requiring them to take however many shots that the particular batch of whatever combination of neurotoxins and live virus isn't perfectly wonderful. Not sure how many flu shots you had, but this bizarre thinking sure doesn't do much to allay any concerns about possible neurological effects some of those ridiculous "tin-foil-health-nuts" have been warning us about to sell vitamins.

https://youtu.be/3AgKBVaPKWo

Eric -- Tuskegee had the beneficial result of getting laws passed that regulate testing done on human subjects. That's why studies on vaccines (and other things) have so much more oversight to prevent abuse.

If you had bothered to do a little reading before leaping in here with both boots to be shredded* -- you will find all of the points brought up in your anti-vaxx movie have been addressed, thoroughly, often, and by a lot of people who are far more qualified than you to evaluate scientific claims.

But go ahead, trot out your best talking point.

*Gawd, yes. I miss lilady as well.

Neurotoxins -- check.

Live virus -- check.

Argumentam ad YouTube - check.

Ren at #188.

But Eric is also part of the “Californians FOR SB277″.

If you are talking about the Facebook group, "Californians for SB277 -- Improve Public Health" no, Eric H or Eric Hanson there. I moderate the group.

You must admit though, Liz, that Mr Hanson's posts are a heckuva an argument in support of SB277.

AdamG

Adam G
"Eric, do you really think you’re the first to try these arguments here? Read this on ‘informed consent’

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/23/california-bill-ab-2109-re…"

Yes all expertise points back to the original insolence blog! Fantastic. But anyway as long as there's "consent" at the end of "informed" I'm good with it so long as the condition of "informed" doesn't require a lobotomy.

Eric H, what are you hoping to accomplish by lashing out here?

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

C'mon, Eric -- where's your best talking point?

as long as there’s “consent” at the end of “informed” I’m good with it

So then what the hell is your beef with the new law? What consequences do believe exist for those who opt not to vaccinate?

LIz Ditz... yes congratulations on a great discovery. Joining a FB group should probably not be taken as full endorsement of the primary purpose nor all conversations contained within.

Generally those with something called intellectual curiosity make a point of exposing themselves to different points of view. I'd hardly be able to present myself as even making an effort without exploring both sides of the issue. Obviously that's a reason I'm participating in this blog too.

Now I certainly understand that some groups are only there for full fledged doctrinaires, so if my current status as a member presents for you a concern I suppose you know what to do.

Eric H, should I hold out for a citation for

And infant mortality rates correlate to high vaccination rates

or should I carry on with my day? This is my third ask, would you be ever so kind and oblige?

And, just as Eric has demonstrated his lack of knowledge about VICP and basics of commerce and psychology, he also demonstrates he doesn't get history. Is there anything Eric H does comprehend?

Eric, in your scenario addressed to MI Dawn, the only way for your analogy to hold up is to assume that there has been no research on the safety/efficacy of the currently recommended vaccines, or that said research is hidden and known only to a select few. The reality is that there is an abundance of research on vaccine S&E that is publicly available and is known to and accepted by the majority of the scientific and medical community. So, the burden of proof actually is on you to show that vaccines (in whole or in part) are either not safe or not effective.

So, when can we expect you to start actually presenting evidence to support your claims?

Intellectual curiosity =/= enthusiastically endorsing conspiracy theories. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Obviously that’s a reason I’m participating in this blog too.

Thanks for clearing that up, I could have sworn it's just because you're a contrarian sh!t-stirring attention-seeking blowhard.

Not a Troll "Eric H, what are you hoping to accomplish by lashing out here?"

Hard to predict what new understandings might result from conversing with what is typically a more diverse set of individual viewpoints. So far I've certainly learned a bit about what strikes me as a Borg like collectivism demonstrated by the uniform and unwavering support of the other participants here for the abolishing of a long tradition of medical choice.

How specifically does the new law abolish medical choice?

Oh, we quote the blog articles because each one of them has sources. If you bothered to trace the articles' links, you'd find all the peer reviewed studies you may need as a burden of proof for vaccines. Also, dude, you're using YouTube as a source. if we can use videos and movies as sources, I don't see why a PhD blog isn't valid as well.

EBMOD, my heartfull support to you and your wife. These are not easy things to go through, I know it as much as anyone else. But with the inconditional support one, as their loved one, can provide, a complete recovery from those traumas can be ensured. And we need not any supplements or bogus treatments for that.

abolishing of a long tradition of medical choice

Google "Jacobson vs Massachusetts.".

AdamG "How specifically does the new law abolish medical choice?"

I thought that was rather clear... by "consequences" of marginalizing tots by barring them from private and public daycare, preschool, grade school, colleges and (drum roll...) "places of work". It's all on Dr. Dick Pan's own FB page.

And again... those playing mental "Shoots and Ladders" can forget about all the history and assume this to be an "end game". Those playing mental chess can see the next moves which are already well underway by some of the same politicians... to restrict and ultimately outlaw "home schooling"... and the discussions have already started... "well if they cannot be in school... what about parks, planes, theaters, shopping malls?"

If these don't register as abolishing medical choice, I'm not sure what it'd take. Please do tell.

Those playing mental chess can see the next moves

They can also be hallucinating.

Now, about that evidence for your claims. You do have some, right?

Diego... Youtube is a form of media. Not "a source". Whatever facts presented in the content of one clip or another stand or fall on merit. Feel free to inform which readily available shots are free of neurotoxins. Let me know which have no live virus. Please also inform how there can be a guaranty that there is no unexpected virus in a batch.

The slippery slope fallacy is still a fallacy, even when tagged with another (mis-spelled) name.

Parents still have a choice, something all your hand-waving can't disguise. The choice comes with a stiffer consequence -- but they still have the choice.

Feel free to inform which readily available shots are free of neurotoxins

Did you know some vaccines may even contain dihydrogen monoxide?? Wake up sheeple!

Yeah, it's right there on the insert packages along with aborted fetuses and monkey DNA.

"package inserts." My Inner German is coming out today.

You are right… but it does prove a point whether the government can be trusted to decide which shots we should all get.

The government doesn't decide which jabs we should all get; they can only recommend. Also, if your defence of denying vaccine safety and efficacy is based upon just government recommendations and you're just too damn smart to trust the government then no wonder you consider Mercola, Null, Adams et al. sources of viable information.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Science Mom

Perhaps in Eric's mind the people who make vaccine recommendations are exactly the same as those who conducted the Tuskegee experiment (either in philosophy/ethics or in body).

Feel free to inform which readily available shots are free of neurotoxins.

All of them sunshine.

Let me know which have no live virus.

All bacterial, recombinant and killed vaccines Mr. researcher.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Science Mom

No, no. Eric H didn't expect us to tell them. He was just using that as a rhetorical device in his role as teacher. Obvy.

I give up. Eric, although apparently an adult, doesn't understand informed consent, research, proof, or what is actually in a vaccine outside what he's read on Mercola et al.

I'm saddened, but not surprised, as I could have guessed from his first posting he'd do that.

I'd shout BINGO but I don't have the Pharma Shill box checked. Did he ever call us that and I missed it?

Maybe I defend them because you're not even reading what they are writing.

"LIz Ditz… yes congratulations on a great discovery. Joining a FB group should probably not be taken as full endorsement of the primary purpose nor all conversations contained within."

Yet she said she didn't find you in her group.

"If you are talking about the Facebook group, “Californians for SB277 — Improve Public Health” no, Eric H or Eric Hanson there. I moderate the group."

Side note, again - it's Chutes and Ladders

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Yes all expertise points back to the original insolence blog! Fantastic.

Ideas stand and fall on merit.

Todd W.
@Science Mom
Perhaps in Eric’s mind the people who make vaccine recommendations are exactly the same as those who conducted the Tuskegee experiment (either in philosophy/ethics or in body).

Seems to me we still have the same three branches of government (CIA, Federal Reserve and IRS) and an increasingly tight relationship between the bureaucratic agencies and the present administration.

Also ACA certainly provides a tighter connection between whatever quality of government we have now and "health care"

Anyway if you see it more optimistically, I can only hope you're the one that's right. But however enamored some of the starry eyed adorers of the present government might be, can you not imagine that things could change and put someone you're not inclined to trust in charge of the system that makes, delivers, tracks and formulates the next round of shots? There's not enough ugly world history for you to emerge from the "it can't happen here" mindset? Are all the corporations and the governments they leverage all basically "good" and benevolent because of Unicorns and Fairy Dust?

Anyone want to take bets on what specific neurotoxin Eric thinks is causing all the vaccine injuries in kids he "personally" knows?

A. Aluminum
B. Mercury
C. Microbiome *waves hands magically*
D. Whatever that one guy said in that one video he watched
E. Never actually thought about it because he's right regardless

Not a troll... thanks much... Chutes and Ladders it is! Time for some coffee.

List of FDA approved vaccines with chemicals in doses high enough that may cause neurological damage and/or otherwise intoxicate the receiver:
-[void]

There you are.

Adam G... think you missed a few. But anyway your guess is as good as mine.

Also, ideas presented here stand or fall in harsh, cold, tangible evidence rightly documented. That's their merit.

Eric H: Do you know why we keep asking you for evidence?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

anyway your guess is as good as mine

Not really, because you are a car salesman and I'm a PhD researcher in human health ;)

But good to know that you just 'guess' those kids were injured by vaccines. You wouldn't happen to be sure the vaccines caused the injury without evidence right? That 'fact' certainly doesn't stand on its own merit.

MI Dawn … seriously? OK. In that case suppose I decide I’m going to come to you with a shot I declare “safe and effective”, unless you can prove to me that it’s dangerous. Does this somehow strike you as logical?

If your declaration about safety and efficacy is backed by all the evidence, and I got nothing that contradicts it, yes.

So what's your proof that the risks attached to vaccines outweigh the benefits? Specifically?

As a victim of an actual rape, where I was suffocated with a pillow by a man twice my size, I would like to personally tell you that you have no clue -NO CLUE what you are saying, Eric. You sound like a hideous and heinous person and if I were you, and were trying to convince someone they were wrong, I would use another tactic. All you've done is manage to show people what a loser you are. I would like to use all sorts of words and phrases to insult and degrade you further, but I don't like virtual shit on my shoes. Take your incoherent and uneducated blather elsewhere.

Seems to me we still have the same three branches of government (CIA, Federal Reserve and IRS) and an increasingly tight relationship between the bureaucratic agencies and the present administration.

Seriously? If those are the three branches of the U.S. government then no wonder you are having such a difficult time with basic scientific concepts.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

AdamG,

How could you miss...Latex!?!

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mom, I think he's being ironic, in tinfoil-hat sort of way. People who think marriage equality and universal healthcare are a Commie plot, tend to believe that the government has been taken over by (insert name of whomever they don't like this week).

NotATroll -- bite your tongue. Er....fingers.

How could you miss…Latex!?!

Careful! I hear if you say it 3 times it summons a Dochniak.

Seems to me we still have the same three branches of government (CIA, Federal Reserve and IRS)

^^That would be zero branches of government, two federal agencies and one central banking system that includes another (ie -- the Board of Governors).

And I have no idea why you're mentioning them, anyway. How are they associated with vaccines?

and an increasingly tight relationship between the bureaucratic agencies and the present administration.

Citation needed.

Also ACA certainly provides a tighter connection between whatever quality of government we have now and “health care”

Unless health insurance is a form of "health care," not really.

Anyway if you see it more optimistically, I can only hope you’re the one that’s right. But however enamored some of the starry eyed adorers of the present government might be, can you not imagine that things could change and put someone you’re not inclined to trust in charge of the system that makes, delivers, tracks and formulates the next round of shots?

What single system that a single person is in charge of makes, delivers, tracks, and formulates the next round of shots?

There’s not enough ugly world history for you to emerge from the “it can’t happen here” mindset? Are all the corporations and the governments they leverage all basically “good” and benevolent because of Unicorns and Fairy Dust?

No. But the pertinent question is really "Are they bad now because of the completely unrelated facts of ugly history that nothing going on in the political present bears much resemblance to, apart from the guys on your side?"

Because the kind of totalitarian regime you seem to fear can always happen anywhere, including here. But it has a distinctively recognizable set of characteristics and features when it does. And it looks a lot more like Mike Adams than it does the federal government.

There are countless documents and stats that indicate risks. Even on the thread here of full doctrinaires the dangers have been acknowledge. I didn't present "proof" that vaccines are all bad, and I personally decided to accept a good number of shots.

I'm not here to prove all shots are evil, nor can you prove that all shots are life enhancing Mana .

I believe I've made it clear that informed consent does not require the would-be recipient to prove to the would be injector that there's grave danger in whatever batch is about to be delivered.

We seem to be caught in a loop? It seems nobody can comprehend this basic concept.

Every person that accepts pills or shots does so based on a combination of semi-blind trust of their physician and whatever personal research they elect to make to feel comfortable that it's the right medicine for them.

I don't mind continuing a discussion about the merit of one vaccine or another, but the only position I'm here to assert is we either have freedom of choice or medical tyranny.

Doctors office should be a place folks go to get help, not a place to be feared for some authority that overrides basic patient rights.

So now that that's been covered as clearly as it can be, I guess I'll wait to be asked the same thing again..

"So what’s your proof that the risks attached to vaccines outweigh the benefits? Specifically?"

The only way to answer that correctly is requires an understanding of the thoughts and agenda of those in power, a knowledge of history, testimony from insider whistle blowers and lots of stats that have been recently scrubbed from CDC and other government websites. I suppose there's also the warning label insert from whatever specific vaccine being assessed. Not all vaccines are of equal quality nor are they equally "safe and effective".

Without receiving a sample of the shot ahead of time and running it through an independent lab, most of it still boils down to placing (appropriately or otherwise) trust with whichever doctor.

Do I have all the answers... Of course not! Do I pretend to? Not even close? Does that mean I have no right to make my own assessment based on "trust" and/or whatever investment in research? Hell no!

Are we clear now?

I think he’s being ironic, in tinfoil-hat sort of way.

Agree in part, dissent in part.

(I think it's also a case of "if you say something's a branch of government, that makes it true, in the same way that if you say something's a neurotoxin that makes it true, no further proof, thought, or knowledge necessary.")

Does that mean I have no right to make my own assessment

What I don't understand is that no one has taken away, or is proposing taking away, this right.
Let's put aside the future for a moment, the slippery slope arguments. Do you believe that barring unvaccinated children from attending public schools is a good idea for public health? Why or why not?

Science Mom, I'm certainly aware of the official "Three branches" but you'd be rather clueless to not understand the the influence on private centralized banking and the concentrated power to make puppet governments around the globe by agencies like the CIA. Anyway perhaps you'd be best to stick to whatever you can figure out about "science". For the purpose of this discussion, the bottom line is whether "the government" has been, is, and will be trustworthy enough to overrule our own choices of medicine.

Adam G: "Do you believe that barring unvaccinated children from attending public schools is a good idea for public health? Why or why not?"

There is no reasonable assumption that "unvaccinated children" carry disease. I'd also have no problem with health screening at a school to ensure that those carrying TB. Ebola and whatever other danger are kept a safe distance from other kids.

Any expert on vaccination should know that shedding of the live virus delivered in vaccine is possible and a vulnerable sibling is often among the "legitimate" excuses for skipping certain shots. So if anything, recently vaccinated kids should be counted more of a threat than healthy vaccine clear kids.

Perhaps I'm wrong since it's a bit outside my main expertise, and of course you can let me know if I missed anything.

Thanks in advance...

I’d also have no problem with health screening at a school to ensure that those carrying TB. Ebola and whatever other danger are kept a safe distance from other kids.

So can the kids with Ebola be in the same classroom as the healthy kids but a safe distance away or should we build them a separate classroom?

I'm a big fan of slippery slope arguments. If we can't exclude voluntarily unvaccinated children from our schools, leading to clusters of extreme vulnerability to outbreaks, then tomorrow we won't be able to exclude children with the actual diseases to contain outbreaks. Slippery slope!

After all, we already saw one Marin Mom go postal when her unvaccinated child was asked to stay home in the middle of an outbreak.

Shedding. Heh. Definitely Bingo.

By Roadstergal (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Today in NEJM

Another enforcement-related issue is whether a cadre of “willing providers” will step forward to serve the antivaccination community by providing “medical” exemptions. Vaccination opponents are well connected, and if even a small number of physicians begin to broadly interpret the criteria for medical exemptions, the law's objectives may be undermined.

Shifting Vaccination Politics — The End of Personal-Belief Exemptions in California
Michelle M. Mello, J.D., Ph.D., David M. Studdert, L.L.B., Sc.D., and Wendy E. Parmet, J.D.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1508701?query=featured_home

Nothing at all wrong with some protocols to ensure safety of kids at school or otherwise. Vaccine clear kids are not "less healthy" nor disease carriers for the lack of whatever shots. Kids shedding virus or germs of any sort can certainly be kept home from school. Keeping an unvaccinated child home during an outbreak that would have them vulnerable makes sense too doesn't it?

As for marginalization of a category of kids for not having the full does of boosters of whatever list of shots presently being promoted, and the wholesale barring from "daycare" "pre-k" grade-school, colleges and "places of work" doesn't work for me. If such a bold position is owed to a "tin foil hat"... then I guess I'll owe a debt of gratitude to whatever company is still making foil from tin. Generally folks today favor the aluminum foil.

Side note, again – it’s Chutes and Ladders

Jeezums, man, you passed up the opportunity for an ongoing test of his reading comprehension?

Kids shedding virus or germs of any sort can certainly be kept home from school.

One might note that the infectious period of, oh, say, measles begins before the disease becomes symptomatic.

Eric H, another question, if I may. What is your background with respect to education, specific to natural and formal sciences?

<Kids shedding virus or germs of any sort can certainly be kept home from school.

Ideas on how to identify them all?

Blockquote fail, and Narad beat me to it anyway.

Every person that accepts pills or shots does so based on a combination of semi-blind trust of their physician and whatever personal research they elect to make to feel comfortable that it’s the right medicine for them.

I agree that those things are involved. But there's more to it than that.

Let's say (for example) that your personal research leads you to conclude that vaccines are chock-a-block full of neurotoxins, a subject about which you know absolutely nothing beyond what you read on the internet.

And let's say that the people who wrote and posted it make a lot of money selling nutritional supplements and other alt-med/survivalist-type products that they can't count on anybody buying because of their well-demonstrated beneficial effects, due to their having decided to go directly to the profit-making stage without bothering to demonstrate any .

Those people would have a very strong incentive to alienate you from your physician and endear you to themselves by telling you a bunch of stories about how all physicians are in league with each other and the Fed, none of which are based on anything more solid than guilt-by-association and exactly the same kind of fearmongering/scapegoat-blaming appeal to populism traditionally used by fascists.

And if they succeeded, they'd effectively be depriving you of your right to make truly free, truly informed choices, which is a very serious bad act.

So caveat lector.

I don’t mind continuing a discussion about the merit of one vaccine or another, but the only position I’m here to assert is we either have freedom of choice or medical tyranny.

As I understood it, the position you were asserting was that SB277 meant that we had the latter.

Is that wrong?

Doctors office should be a place folks go to get help, not a place to be feared for some authority that overrides basic patient rights.

Agree. But if it's your position that they're not, you have to make a case for it.

So now that that’s been covered as clearly as it can be, I guess I’ll wait to be asked the same thing again.

I'm sorry if you find it burdensome. But if you're asserting that there's danger and reason for fear, you can't really blame other people for wanting to know why you say so, can you?

“So what’s your proof that the risks attached to vaccines outweigh the benefits? Specifically?”

The only way to answer that correctly is requires an understanding of the thoughts and agenda of those in power, a knowledge of history,

Okay. I have all those things, as it happens.

testimony from insider whistle blowers and lots of stats that have been recently scrubbed from CDC and other government websites.

Specifically?

I suppose there’s also the warning label insert from whatever specific vaccine being assessed.

I humbly submit that inferring what the real risks were based on that would require an understanding of the thoughts and agenda of the people who put together package inserts.

Because they're not self-explanatory pieces of literature, believe it or not. Some fluency is necessary.

Not all vaccines are of equal quality nor are they equally “safe and effective”.

I apologize in advance for saying this. But specifically?

I'm not just asking to be annoying, I swear. It's a sincere question.

Without receiving a sample of the shot ahead of time and running it through an independent lab, most of it still boils down to placing (appropriately or otherwise) trust with whichever doctor.

To exactly the same extent that your belief that any product is safe boils down to placing (appropriately or otherwise) trust in its producers, manufacturers, vendors, and others, sure.

But do you employ a taster to make sure everything you eat and drink is poison-free?

All right, then. Why the different standard for doctors?
Do I have all the answers… Of course not! Do I pretend to? Not even close? Does that mean I have no right to make my own assessment based on “trust” and/or whatever investment in research? Hell no!

Are we clear now?

As for marginalization of a category of kids for not having the full does of boosters of whatever list of shots presently being promoted, and the wholesale barring from “daycare” “pre-k” grade-school, colleges and “places of work” doesn’t work for me.

An employee at will can be fired for anything or for nothing unless he or she is a member of a protected class.

Given that you have rejected – in perhaps the most stupid terms imaginable – the social contract, why would you now propose to invoke some sort of legally protected status for antivaccine cranks? Anything else you'd like to add to the list?

@Eric Hanson

I come way late to the party (sorry 'bout that) but the Fascists exterminated one branch of my brother in law's family. As in hunted them down, every last one of them, and killed them for having the wrong political beliefs. This kind of thing is why "Fascist" is such an odious term, and why people think you such a monster for using it in the way you do.

By Robert L Bell (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"Keeping an unvaccinated child home during an outbreak that would have them vulnerable makes sense too doesn’t it?"

Ok, that is just mind numbingly, certifiably stupid. If that idea actually worked, vaccines would have never been necessary.

As stated, there is absolutely no way to tell early enough which children are infected.

Stick to selling cars. Medicine clearly isn't your aptitude.

Any expert on vaccination should know that shedding of the live virus delivered in vaccine is possible.

That's largely a myth, Eric H.

For reals.

Twelve kids in my daughter's preschool class. One comes to school, no issues, no symptoms, right as rain. Then she goes home, eats dinner later, and spends the rest of the night vomiting. Within 3 days, 5 of the 12 are throwing up. Including my daughter. And then her father. And then me. Too bad the little girl who passed it on wasn't showing any symptoms.

Eric @285: You say that you are concerned about "virus shedding" from live virus vaccines. You also said that you preferred the older vaccine schedule to the modern one.

Is that the older vaccine schedule that included the oral (live) polio vaccine and the live smallpox vaccine? In what ways are these vaccines safer than the current schedule?

Also, can you breifly remind us why the smallpox vaccine is no longer part of the US (or any country's) recommended vaccine schedule?

By JustaTech (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I haven't worked in retail in 40 years, and at the time I wasn't selling cars. So I am completely unqualified to tell Eric H how to do his job, nor do I have any reason to believe that I could do it better (regardless of my current very low opinion of his intelligence, critical thinking, and communications skills). Reading a few sales manuals or the Blue Book isn't going to make me an expert on care sales, either.

Eric, on the other hand, has read articles on some alt-med pages and now believes that he knows better than epidemiologists, pediatricians, and researchers into communicable disease who have spent more studying vaccines.

And he is incapable of understanding how arrogant that is.

ann@300: Well, technically it was possible to get infected from someone else's smallpox vaccinations, but there's a huge difference between a weeping, open sore (yay vaccinia) and a few stray viri in your lungs.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

There is no reasonable assumption that “unvaccinated children” carry disease.

Unless there's a reasonable assumption that they won't be exposed to a vaccine-preventable disease, there is, actually.

There is no reasonable assumption that “unvaccinated children” carry disease

Then you should have no problem identifying the last measles outbreak in the US or Europe where the index case was vaccinated.

I haven’t worked in retail in 40 years, and at the time I wasn’t selling cars. So I am completely unqualified to tell Eric H how to do his job....

I happen to know a fair amount about the racket, but it's unclear to me whether he's actually working the lot. After all, the title is Master Certified Internet Sales Rep.

Coupled with the Web design thing, I'm wondering whether homeschooling would even represent as much of a lifestyle change as it would for most people.

shay, did you get the smallpox vaccination when you were in the military?

@#305

Hey! I threw a "largely" in there!

That truthwiki is hilarious; I'm grateful to Eric for the link to that. I was alarmed to learn that:

The term “Roundup Ready” means the crop’s seeds are genetically engineered to contain the toxic and deadly herbicide.

Who knew? I imagine the rest of the site is just as reliable.
As for Eric's interest in electrosensitivity, I'm reminded of this case in which a microwave tower was alleged to be causing continuing "headaches, nausea, tinnitus, dry burning itchy skins, gastric imbalances and totally disrupted sleep patterns"> It turned out it had been turned off for the previous six weeks.

I do find it sad that people like Eric are taken in by this garbage, and believe that vaccines really do pose a serious risk to health and contain dangerous levels of neurotoxins, that people routinely shed live viruses after vaccination, that herd immunity is a myth and that if vaccines are effective no one should be concerned about unvaccinated children. All these points are easily refuted with just a little curiosity and intelligence, yet Eric has swallowed these lies uncritically and apparently believes that we are the gullible ones.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Then you should have no problem identifying the last measles outbreak in the US or Europe where the index case was vaccinated.

Hey, I can do that!

Ann @310: You did! And I picked a vaccine we don't give anymore. Too...make the point that I can be pedantic?

I guess because it's the only vaccine I've ever gotten that included instructions to not let any mammal touch my dirty bandages (yes mammal, specifically dog, cat or human). So I put all the contaminated bandages in the biohazard bin at work. As you do.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

My dogs would totally eat the dirty bandages. They eat their own sh!t, what's a few bandages between friends.

Citation needed that the rate of cancer has hit “epidemic levels”.

Well, I expect cancer as a percentage of causes of death has been rising.

But that's mostly because we've reduced or eliminated a lot of the other causes of death.

So I suppose you could argue vaccines make more people die of cancer, simply because they're a lot less likely to die of all the vaccine-preventable childhood diseases fifty years earlier. Somehow, I'm having trouble seeing that as a bad thing.

By Jenora Feuer (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

shay, did you get the smallpox vaccination when you were in the military?

No, I was born in 1955 so I had the vaccine when I was a kid. In the words of the spousal unit "People were scared of it back then. They weren't stupid like they are today."

From the Defense Health Agency, Smallpox Vaccination Program Questions and Answers dated 8 July 2014.

"From 1983 through 2002, most service members did not get vaccinated against smallpox. Those vaccinated before 1983 do not have much immunity left from vaccine given years ago. Until the late 1970s, many billions of people around the globe received smallpox vaccine. Smallpox vaccine is still used routinely to protect a small number of people who work in labs with the smallpox vaccine virus (vaccinia) or similar viruses. Between December 2002 and May 2014, more than 2.4 million service members received smallpox vaccinations."

@#305 --

Hey! I threw a "largely" in there!

(Seriously: I actually believe Eric H. when he says that he has a real interest in exposing himself to more than one side of the story. So I guess I was hoping to pique his interest.

Because, you know. Nobody really likes being dictated to or lectured all the time, however enjoyable it may be for the person on the delivery end of things.)

Sorry, brain fart. For some reason I was thinking we were around the same age. I wasn't supposed to get it but did because we left Canada when I was 3 and yadda. My parents were terrified of smallpox. My old man saw it firsthand during his training abroad and never forgot.

Did you get anthrax? :)

Eric, way up at the beginning of the comments, you implied that you were opposed to "the low quality shots wrongly declared “safe and effective”". Can you please tell us which shots you think are wrongly declared "safe and effective"? What is your evidence for such a belief?

As for loss of medical choice, could you please enumerate instances where citizens of California have been forcibly vaccinated? I'm sure you must have examples of how jackbooted government thugs have busted down someone's door, restrained them and shoved a needle in their arm while their families members have been held at bay?

@#313 --

Oops, double post, except with additional material.

I got the smallpox vaccine too, though. Because: old.

testimony from insider whistle blowers and lots of stats that have been recently scrubbed from CDC and other government websites.

Specifically?

The example that sprang to mind bears directly on this:

You also said that you preferred the older vaccine schedule to the modern one.

I have little interest in tracking it down, though.

I didn't -- the spousal unit did, because he deployed to Iraq at a time when everyone pretty much figured that ol' Saddam was going to use his biological warfare stockpile.

It's been 25 years and I'm still waiting for the man to grow another ear or turn alizarin or whatever it is the anthrax vaccine is supposed to cause.

We should have a game of "Top this exotic vaccine!"

I'll start. Yellow fever, three times (it's apparently only good for 10 years.)

I got more, I'm just waiting for y'all to play your cards.

Polio, typhoid and malaria!

I put the polio in there because: old.

You win. Man, that didn't take long.

BUT DID YOU DO THE FIRST RABIES SERIES?!

Cholera?

We lived through a cholera outbreak when I was around 7 and then another when I was about 10 and then the worst one when I'd been sent (along with the sibs) away to school. None of us ever got it, thankfully. Oh holy Mother, the smell...

Of course not. I live in a clean home where nobody gets bitten.

Oh, man...you did the first rabies series? How old were you?

shay,

The polio vaccine tasted great, didn't it? I was surprised.

Glad I never had a rabies vaccine. One of my greatest fears growing up in the country.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

We were 6, 8, 9, and 16. Got shipped to London to my grandfather and he took us to a colleague who gave them to us. I actually don't remember it, but my brother and sisters do and not fondly.

As for viral shedding, that is primarily a theoretical risk in US childhood vaccines that use a live virus (MMR, varicella, FluMist, rotavirus). Since these use attenuated viruses, the likelihood of any shedding causing illness in contacts is exceptionally low. In fact, I can't find even a case study of a secondary contact being infected by shed vaccine-strain virus.

So, Eric H. Since you bring up vaccinated people as being a greater risk to others than "healthy" (scare quotes used because infected individuals are frequently infectious before they show any signs or symptoms) unvaccinated children, perhaps you can point me to what must be large numbers of cases of vaccinated people infecting others with vaccine-strain virus.

Ann, your thoughtful reply is appreciated... I will review that more at first opportunity.

As for most of the others... well, I'll give some thought to see if I can find something nice to say about those contributions too.

Ann, your thoughtful reply is appreciated… I will review that more at first opportunity.

Heh.

We all have terrific memories of growing up there. If you asked my sibs "what didn't you like" they all answer the same thing -- "the time Grandfather took us to get the rabies shots." And 2 of 4 are physicians! My brother was apparently bribed with a Sex Pistols record, because we couldn't get that at home. :)

Citation needed that the rate of cancer has hit “epidemic levels”.

Well, half of my parents died of cancer, so there's that.

Like Ann and Shay, I had the smallpox shot back in the day, and for the same reason. But no MMR for me. I had the real diseases, and really got sick. These kids today, with their perfect school attendances, don't know what it's like to stay home, too miserable to be happy that you get a week off from lessons and homework each time a VPD went thru a class.

And get off my lawn.

"Like Ann and Shay, I had the smallpox shot back in the day..."

And I bet we all have the scars to show it.

"And get off my lawn."

+ 1 Upvote

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@#327 --

No cholera. I got nothing more exotic than small pox and polio classic, same as Shay.

But I do have direct forebears who were saved by small pox from being slaughtered in their home by fascists.

Does that count?

I don't get the concern with "shedding."

Kooks have pox parties to deliberately expose their kids.
There is great moaning about the "toxins" in vaccines.
Myriad are the "I'm pro safe vaccine, not anti-vax" claims.

It seems to me that the opportunity for kids to grab some useful antigens without any of the dread toxins would result in kooks encouraging their kids to actively seek the company of the recently vaccinated.

(The fascists did not want to risk catching small pox by entering the home, in case that needs explanation.)

I don't know, ann. Did they say no but really mean yes?

the time Grandfather took us to get the rabies shots

Pre-exposure vaccination or the old and rather nasty post-exposure series?

Another suggestion that parents seek out physicians in solo or small private practices rather than larger groups. .... Larger groups tend to have more explicitly codified practice guidelines

Not referring to vaccine exemptions - but I have noticed myself that doctors in solo practice are a better place to find individualized, innovative care.
The group practices tend to be more rigid, conservative and cautious. It seems like it's easier to persuade another person into caution and rigidity, than into innovation.
Also the better doctors seem more likely to go into solo practice.

Pro vaccine propaganda is so blatantly dishonest. The truth is that a percentage of children will be harmed by vaccines and the government is lying about the percentage. We know that Hannah Pauling's Autism was caused by vaccines. Even the Vaccine Court agreed. Her mitochondrial defect contributed, but 7% to 20% of children have mitochondrial defects. Forcing everybody to be vaccinated, without identifying those at greater risk of harm, is insanity. I do not have to pull up "peer reviewed research" to know that our system is corrupt. Vaccine Court should be abolished and we should send the trial lawyers after the bastards who keep lying about the harm caused to our children. Then we should end the revolving door between the CDC and FDA and those that they are supposed to be regulating. Does it not bother you that the former head of the CDC was given a job and over 4 million dollars by Merck after she sailed Gardasil through the process? Politicians should have to recuse themselves from any issue that is affected by a corporation that contributed to their campaigns. How are these contributions not bribes when they are quid pro quo? There are a lot more issues that I see as a blatant corruption of the system including the strong arm gangster tactics used by pharmaceutical companies when safety is questioned. We can not trust the lives of children in the hand of those with such an ungodly agenda that they do not mind killing babies.

By Eric McKillop (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Can I play?

I'll see your yellow fever, polio, cholera (13 times, it was only good for 6 months), but malaria wasn't a shot, I just had pills. However, I'll raise gamma globulin twice, both the old and the new formula (the new shot ain't a big deal, but the old one was brutal).

It was 1977 and it was a newer vaccine. We had to go a few times, from what I'm told. I'm sorry I don't really know. Probably should. This was in London.

I love Malarone. It's like mushrooms, for when you sleep. ;)

We know that Hannah Pauling’s Autism was caused by vaccines.

I think this thread just won blackout bingo.
Go back to trolling Bobby Jindal on twitter, Mr. McKillop.

@#341 --

I'd like to think they said something along the lines of "Zei gesunt, suckers!"

But, you know. They had small pox. And although they did survive it, they didn't know they were going to yet. So they probably just suffered silently, in the traditional manner of people living in fear without freedom.

As one does.

ann, was it you who had family who survived the Holodmor? Apologies if I'm thinking of someone else. I have a gormless and benevolent Newfoundland and a maddening and manipulative Golden Retriever climbing in my lap/hanging off my arms.

Delphine: "shay, did you get the smallpox vaccination when you were in the military."

When I was around sixteen I marched into the medical dispensary at Ft. Clayton and got a smallpox vaccine. That was after I had gone there before to get a typhoid, and diphtheria/tetanus vaccines.

My yellow fever vaccine was still good for another four years, which I didn't need since I was no longer living in the tropics. Though I had to wait three years before I could give blood because one of the questions was if I had lived in the tropics. I never did get malaria, but I did get dengue fever.

Unlike shay, who is a real warrior, I was just an Army brat.

Pro vaccine propaganda is so blatantly dishonest. The truth is that a percentage of children will be harmed by vaccines and the government is lying about the percentage. We know that Hannah Pauling’s Autism was caused by vaccines. Even the Vaccine Court agreed. Her mitochondrial defect contributed, but 7% to 20% of children have mitochondrial defects.

It's Poling, not Pauling. She didn't and doesn't have autism. The Vaccine Court therefore didn't agree that it was caused by vaccines. The specific mitchondrial disease she has is exceedingly rare. And they're not all equal.

Check your facts before calling other people dishonest.

That truthwiki is hilarious

and other things.

I had a look at a few things. EBMOD might be interested in the article on myopia. I accept no responsibility for the air turning blue (or EBMOD turning purple and blue).

The article on astigmatism is flat out copy-paste plagiarism. The source is simply cited as a reference.

Yeah, I should have stated that the malaria vaccine came in pills. And after I had taken them all and finally got to my destination, my guide informed me that malaria season was still three months away.

Oooh, I had the old gamma globulin too! Okinawa, I think.

Both of my parents contracted malaria. My father was 140 lbs soaking wet and my mother was about the same, both around 5'9" to 6". They were cadavers when malaria was done with them. I have never contracted it but I have several colleagues and friends who have. Wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

I was not a real warrior. Real warriors get shot at. I was a Remington Raider.

Boy, I can't even play the vaccine bingo. I got smallpox, polio, DPT. MMR as a teen (after the joys of mumps and rubella...of which only rubella gave me immunity). Hep B once I started working as a nurse (non-converter there, too...sigh...). I'm currently up to date on all vaccines though I may be due for TDaP (or whatever adults get). And I'll get my annual flu vaccine courtesy of work in the fall.

Apart from preventing me from donating blood for a while, the malaria pills did me no harm and they certainly beat the heck out of getting the disease.

This is a concept Eric H and his fellow travelers don't grasp. Everything you do at every waking moment of every day carries some element of risk. The risks associated with getting vaccinated are quantumly less than the risks associated with coming down with the disease you're being vaccinated against.

@#350 --

Yes! I also have family who didn't. But why dwell? Glass half full.

That was the other side of the family, however.

A lot of people live very hard lives even still. But late-19th/early-20th-century hardship must have been hard in ways it's difficult to really comprehend in the present.

I’d also have no problem with health screening at a school to ensure that those carrying TB. Ebola and whatever other danger are kept a safe distance from other kids.

Are you under the impression that a health screening is less intrusive than a vaccination? Especially since it would have to be done very very frequently to turn up the contagious diseases that a single vaccination would prevent. I'm imagining the health screening: "Here, pee in this cup. Now open wide so I can stick this swab down your throat. Oh, and we'll need to take your temperature and blood pressure, and we'll need some blood so hold out your finger for the needle-stick. Good. See you next week so we can screen you again."

shay: " I was a Remington Raider."

I stand corrected. I only lived near barracks, not in them.

Pulling up Dept. of Defense shot record, before my fist birthday in Ft. Kobbe I was vaccinated for smallpox, typhoid, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, typhus, polio and yellow fever.

More recently I have been vaccinated for influenza (a few times) and shingles. On my 19th birthday I got an couple of experimental influenza vaccines for study while in the dorms. One was labeled "NJ" (swine flu, H1N1), and the other was "HK" for Hong Kong. I learned later that study had to be stopped because college women tended to faint. All I remember was the young doctor who gave them to me was impressed with my DoD vaccine record, I found out later he had just come back from a stint as a young Army doctor in Vietnam (he signed my record, and i actually contacted him a few years ago).

malaria vaccine came in pills

I'm quite sure there is no malaria vaccine, just prophylactic medication.

lots of stats that have been recently scrubbed from CDC and other government websites.

I'm quietly confident that Eric H. will be able to point to archived copies of these scrubbed CDC stats within the Internet Archive, and thereby prove that he's not simply regurgitating bullsh1t.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

I’d also have no problem with health screening at a school to ensure that those carrying TB. Ebola and whatever other danger are kept a safe distance from other kids.

Just how is this to be conducted? Kids kept sealed up in thick barrier bags and taken out in suitable biohazard lab for collection of samples? Or do they each have a personal perpetual formaldehyde shower? Or a chlorine dioxide solution shower?

ann, I have posted this before, but my grandfather was the only male child to survive out of 12 babies born. They were stupidly wealthy and did not suffer from a comparative lack of sanitation, nutrition, etc. Yet she lost all of those children, a few during birth, some to childhood illnesses. I can't even imagine what that would have been like.

My parents witnessed this repeatedly in the 1970s and 80s in the DRC. Women who would show up in labour with dead babies inside of them that my father would remove in pieces. Women that would arrive with sick children that would invariably die, no matter what. Again, I can't even imagine. I think that I would die.

A good friend who resides in Winnipeg (large Ukrainian population) was there for the commemoration of the Holodmor last year. It was apparently quite moving.

a bit outside my main expertise

Much as Pluto is a bit outside of the London metropolitan area.

So doug, now I want to know, which series did I get? My mother isn't answering Skype. :P

My take on the vaccine requirements at school. First an unvaccinated child may have had childhood diseases and be immune for life unlike a vaccinated child that may or may not be immune. Second, the recently vaccinated child is more of a danger to be around than any other child. Just look at the signs on the door of any hospital treating the immune suppressed. Third, the reasons given for wanting children vaccinated goes both ways. As much as unvaccinated children may be a danger to some, vaccines are a known danger to a percentage of children. Those who are pro vaccine want to endanger other people's children when there is not one known incident of anyone actually dying from a disease caused by an unvaccinated child. At another level, government compulsion is always evil.

By Eric McKillop (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mom, I’m certainly aware of the official “Three branches” but you’d be rather clueless to not understand the the influence on private centralized banking and the concentrated power to make puppet governments around the globe by agencies like the CIA. Anyway perhaps you’d be best to stick to whatever you can figure out about “science”. For the purpose of this discussion, the bottom line is whether “the government” has been, is, and will be trustworthy enough to overrule our own choices of medicine.

Tin foil hat it is and a little too tight I see. I would imagine a car salesman would find the science of vaccinology too hard to parse and thus have to rely upon a non-existent conspiracy by the government who is, in fact, not "overruling your dumbarse medical choices.
By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

those who conducted the Tuskegee experiment [...] Seems to me we still have the same three branches of government (CIA, Federal Reserve and IRS)

Eric H. might want to compare the date when the Tuskegee experiment started and the date when the CIA was founded.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Delphine to ann: "A good friend who resides in Winnipeg (large Ukrainian population) was there for the commemoration of the Holodmor last year. It was apparently quite moving."

Googles "Holodmor", eyes open wide and jaw drops. Wow. My hubby's grandmother told us about the "starving time" in the Netherlands during WWII, which just pales compared to what happened in the Ukraine.

Oh, I also looked up "DRC", props to anyone who lived in the Congo. At least we lived in the tropics which were modern cities, and while you had to be careful in 1960s Caracas, the water in Panama was treated. Well the Canal Zone was like an imperial colony run by the US Army Corps of Engineers cutting through the middle of the Republic of Panama.

shay... "The risks associated with getting vaccinated are quantumly less than the risks associated with coming down with the disease you’re being vaccinated against."

That's stated so convincingly it has to be true. Or maybe not. Some of us haven't arrived at that conclusion due to our being so slow, uninformed and susceptible to vitamin supplement sales propaganda and all...

Anyway if you're right, we've got to get the word out in a manner that the more skeptical folks like me can embrace it and make the best choices.

Passing in-your-face legislation to force the issue hardly has that effect as pointed out well enough in this strongly pro-vax biased article.

http://www.laweekly.com/news/is-there-a-kinder-gentler-way-to-get-anti-…

Like Ann and Shay, I had the smallpox shot back in the day, and for the same reason. But no MMR for me. I had the real diseases, and really got sick.

Me too. I remember mumps the most vividly. And my grandmother made us get typhoid immunzations (I think) before swimming in the waters of the Delta (California).

The blabberer at #344:

I do not have to pull up “peer reviewed research” to know that our system is corrupt. Vaccine Court should be abolished and we should send the trial lawyers after the bastards who keep lying about the harm caused to our children.

Professor Dorit Reiss's article on the advantages to the consumers of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is apropos here.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/national-vaccine…

(She is working on another article which would be even more apropos, but it hasn't yet been published.

"there is not one known incident of anyone actually dying from a disease caused by an unvaccinated child"

Actually there are. But there are also cases where the unvaccinated child died or suffered permanent harm from a vaccine-preventable disease.

I think it is a mistake for those who support vaccination to keep pushing the social contract and the protection of babies and the immune-compromised. Rabid antivaxxers don't care about other people, but they might care about their own children -- and any disease passing from an unvaccinated child takes its first shot at that child, who may die or suffer permanent harm as a result.

Re: mckillop
Killing Babies?! Killing babies? Except that modern medicine doubled life expectancy, decimated infant mortality and found more treatment or cures in the past 100 years than all of mankind's combined history. They've saved millions of baby's and made 'burying children under 5' a rarity (whereas it's still a fact of life in the developing world). Your ilk would have us believe the sky is falling, but I keep looking up and frankly, it's where it's always been. IfIf anything anything, it's getting brighter.

You're risk analysis is quite bizarre, how is a 1 in ten million chance of serious vaccine injury not preferable to a 2/1000 risk of death from measles (among many more) — also, when one fears such odds how do you function, ie do you drive? Go out in the rain? Watch jerry springer (way higher risk of brain damage than 1 in 10 mill)?

Alt med folk carp about the 'fascism' under which they live as they broadcast hate-filled polemics, accumulate vast wealth and dis-educate thousands of unwary followers

THEN we read about REAL victims of fascism like ann's family.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Anyway if you’re right, we’ve got to get the word out in a manner that the more skeptical folks like me can embrace it and make the best choices.

Yeah well that's the problem right there as those (such as you) afflicted with arrogant ignorance think they know more than the actual scientists who produce studies on the subject. There never will be anything to convince people like you. Thank yourselves for the current climate that has swung harshly against selfish, ignorant anti-vaxx freaks.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

About the 'good old days'

I learned that my ancestors/ relatives who lived in/ around western nations' largest cities c. 1890s-1940s mostly as business owners, at least middle class-
- lost children to VPDs esp 1918 influenza
- had TB
- had malaria, possibly another had cholera ( foreign service)
- died due to blood loss
- used a wheelchair because of polio
- died of internal injuries after an accident

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Passing in-your-face legislation to force the issue hardly has that effect as pointed out well enough in this strongly pro-vax biased article.

I see that it is once again time to invoke Betteridge's law.

Then again, it would be odd if this question had been studied empirically, now wouldn't it?

I had a bad PPH after Delphinette was born and there is no doubt that I would have died had I been anywhere else but a developing country. Healthy baby, boggy uterus? Sorry lady, we can't save your life, too bad you aren't living in the West where it's nervewracking yet eminently doable and the odds are on your side. I can't have more babies but at least I'm still breathing air.

*developed

I blame the dogs

Some of us haven’t arrived at that conclusion due to our being so slow, uninformed and susceptible to vitamin supplement sales propaganda and all…

Big of you to admit it.

if you’re right, we’ve got to get the word out in a manner that the more skeptical folks like me can embrace it and make the best choices.

Ohhh I see so now it's 'our' fault for not properly informing proper skeptics like yourself. Don't be ridiculous...remember how you made a rape analogy the very first comment on this thread?

Wholly off-topic -- back when the DRC was still Zaire, I acted as interpreter/escort for their wrestling team at a Conseil Internationale du Sport Militaire event at Quantico.

I was a tad torked at the lieutenant who drew the Belgians. She got chocolates, I wound up loaning the Zairean chef d'equipe fifty bucks because no bank would change their currency.

I have two kids with IEPs, both of them for autism spectrum disorders. Schools are not going to give out IEPs just for the asking, since a kid with an IEP (obviously) needs more of the school's resources, and because schools support SB277. So good luck with that anti-vaxxers.

And if I were a primary care provider in California, I would consider a spurious vaccine exemption given by another physician to any member of my practice cause for termination from the practice. Want to go to Dr. Bob or his ilk for an exemption? Fine. You can also see him for your kids' fevers and ADHD at $180/pop.

By Mary Russell (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

"safe distance" ..... yeah

Jeezums, am I the only person who didn't get the smallpox vaccine around here? I am just barely old enough to have gotten chickenpox in kindergarten, though.

My friend Olga caught dengue fever when she was living in Thailand for about a year (long story.) I hear it is an awful, awful disease, and this is going to sound freakish, but I really, really like the way the name of it sounds. I keep meaning to work it into a poem or something.

"if you’re right, we’ve got to get the word out in a manner that the more skeptical folks like me can embrace it and make the best choices."

Ok; if you are starting to see that there is a lot of conflict of interest amongst those who have been feeding you information, if this is not just an appeal against the necessity of the law (because that's a little late now), and if you are open to learning from those here, then you would kindly tell us what was able to reach you?

Entirely serious question. I'll wait for an answer if you aren't there yet.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Hey here’s more “propaganda” to sell vitamin supplements!

That one actually looks more like straight-up political propaganda to me. The Kochs and their ilk throw a lot of money into making people too angry and cynical to participate in the process generally. Makes it easier for them to do what they want.

The thing is: It's not true that there's a connection to big pharma there. That company is (or was) a 5-year-old Seattle-based biotechnology start-up that went under before it did anything. And that includes "make a public offering."

Yet that video is representing it as if it meant that multi-national corporate fat-cats living large off the big vax bucks were behind the whole thing. Which is complete crap. There's no association at all.

AdamG "Ohhh I see so now it’s ‘our’ fault for not properly informing proper skeptics like yourself. Don’t be ridiculous…remember how you made a rape analogy the very first comment on this thread?"

Interesting show of defensiveness... I'd hardly be the one to blame folks for not doing adequately effective job of pushing shots. Ever since the Disney episode and the extremely one-sided media campaign that falsely blamed "anti-vaxers", there's been an incredible 80 or 85% to respond favorably to the once extremely unpopular notion of mandatory shots.

As for the "rape analogy" that obvious truth remains self evident. To refresh your memory my statement was, with slight paraphrasing "Even if it makes cute and adorable children, a semen injection less consent can only be one thing. Even if for "greater good" vaccine injections less consent is also rape (if not bio-chemical assault)"

Before the usual suspects resume with feigned indignation, this is in no way a statement to diminish the seriousness of rape. Instead it correctly associates two serious forms of unwelcome and intrusive attention that is unimaginably horrible whether by needle or prick. True consent less fear of “consequences” makes all the difference in both cases.

I certainly might have much to learn about medicine before I can claim equivalence to MD, but no particular expertise is required apart from plain logic to support such a simple truth.

I sure don't mind learning by debate and otherwise how my present impression of the merits of current vaccination programs might be misguided. Maybe I can learn something that will have me among the biggest proponents of vaccination. But even if I were to discover that every last CDC recommendation was greater than God's word and every last drop of vaccine was true Mana from heaven, individual vaccine choice is as non-negotiable as vile old traditions like Droit du seigneur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

"I am just barely old enough to have gotten chickenpox in kindergarten, though."

Hmm, I was working in pharmacy when the Chicken pox vaccine came out, so yes, you are quite young compared to me.

All I can say is enjoy while you can. Better yet - don't grow up. It's a trap.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

All I can say is enjoy while you can.

I have actually heard from a number of people that their 30s sucked considerably less than their 20s. I am HOPING this will be the case for me, provided I make it to my 30s.

Better yet – don’t grow up. It’s a trap.

Hey, that's what grad school is for. I am firmly convinced that "being a grown up" is entirely an act anyway, and also not even worth it.

As for the “rape analogy” that obvious truth remains self evident. To refresh your memory my statement was, with slight paraphrasing “Even if it makes cute and adorable children, a semen injection less consent can only be one thing. Even if for “greater good” vaccine injections less consent is also rape (if not bio-chemical assault)”

Before the usual suspects resume with feigned indignation, this is in no way a statement to diminish the seriousness of rape. Instead it correctly associates two serious forms of unwelcome and intrusive attention that is unimaginably horrible whether by needle or prick. True consent less fear of “consequences” makes all the difference in both cases.

Hey jizzmop, actually it does diminish the seriousness of rape, and oh, guess what, nobody is being held down and vaccinated, nor is that going to be the case. This has already been explained to you.

If somebody were held down and forcibly injected with something against their will, that would indeed be a form of assault, but it still wouldn't be rape.

Oh, and BTW, a hand can also be used for raping, not just a prick. Just FYI. Now go play in traffic or something.

JP: " I hear it is an awful, awful disease, and this is going to sound freakish, but I really, really like the way the name of it sounds."

It is called "bone break fever" for a reason.

When I went back to school, sixth grade, a classmate asked me what I had had. I answered, and his twelve year old brain thought how I said "dengue" was the same of nickname for his dangly parts. After he told me this, he turned around back to his desk and mumbled.

In another exchange this same young man answered back to me by calling me "dear." The class laughed, but the teacher "saved" him by saying he must have meant the word about animals with antlers. Hence the reason I write "Oh deer" instead of "Oh dear."

And all of my kids got chicken pox in 1994, the year before the vaccine was available. They range between 21 and 26 years old.

" this is in no way a statement to diminish the seriousness of rape. "

Absolutely, positively, impeccably 100% clueless.

Nice try... who's JizzmoP? is that the longer form of J...P?

I never got any "interesting" vaccines, though I think I got the oral polio vaccine pretty early in its history.
One thing I do remember of vaccines is the administration. Most were done (first at the W.I. hall, then later at school) with a control syringe (glass body, metal rings for thumb and fingers to go through) and reusable needles. Each person got a fresh sterile(ish) needle, but the same syringe would be used for numerous people, something that would be regarded with total horror today. I have no memory of my smallpox vaccination, but it was presumably done with numerous shallow stabs with a solid needle. The bifurcated needle didn't come along until several years later.

It's "manna," it's not capitalized,and on what universe does the sentence " individual vaccine choice is as non-negotiable as vile old traditions like Droit du seigneur" make any sense at all?

Nice try… who’s JizzmoP? is that the longer form of J…P?

You're Jizzmop, Jizzmop! On second thought, maybe I'll just call you Meatotomy. Or maybe Jizzmop Meatotomy; that has a nice ring to it.

shay -- as he seems to have bookended his appearances so far with a casual dismissal of rape and a comparison to Droit de seigneur, methinks he has his mind in the gutter. ;-)

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Chabun Ghost Who Waddles

So Eric is a liar, an Adams shill, an anti-vaxxer, and a misogynistic rape-denier.

In short a Glibertarian.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

@JP

Jeezums, am I the only person who didn’t get the smallpox vaccine around here? I am just barely old enough to have gotten chickenpox in kindergarten, though.

If it is any consolation, my smallpox vaccination didn't take and i subsequently got a medical exemption. I received this vaccination in a one room school with no indoor plumbing. After every Halloween we had to stand the outhouses back up.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Calli -- clearly Eric H did not take our esteemed box of blinky lights seriously.

After every Halloween we had to stand the outhouses back up.

I believe I have mentioned this before, but, except for you being in the wrong part of the country (I think), it could well have been my paternal grandmother who was the one doing the knocking down of the outhouses. Sorry 'bout that.

Actually, I doubt you're as old as she is.

I certainly might have much to learn about medicine before I can claim equivalence to MD, but no particular expertise is required apart from plain logic to support such a simple truth.

Yeah some expertise is actually required starting with extracting your own head from your arse.

But even if I were to discover that every last CDC recommendation was greater than God’s word and every last drop of vaccine was true Mana from heaven, individual vaccine choice is as non-negotiable as vile old traditions like Droit du seigneur.

Ah you do realise don't you that there are a lot more public health agencies throughout the world that recommend vaccination, conduct studies and surveillance right? But that's just a hand-wave away to a whacko Merkin CT-er like you.

By Science Mom (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric McKillop @344

We know that Hannah Pauling’s Autism

Where did you cut and paste this from? What’s with everyone spelling her last name wrong these days?

It’s P O L I N G!

Pauling is the last name of a man who was awarded two Nobel Prizes, on in Chemistry (1954), and for Peace (1962). Nothing to do with vaccine or autism. Chemical bonding, and nuclear test bans.

If you are appropriate someone’s name to support your argument, spell that name right.

Don’t abuse the name of a dual Nobel Laureate.

Ever since the Disney episode and the extremely one-sided media campaign that falsely blamed “anti-vaxers”

"Falsely"? The majority of the people who were infected were intentionally unvaccinated.

individual vaccine choice is as non-negotiable as vile old traditions like Droit du seigneur.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You didn't even READ the article on Wikipedia about "droit de seigneur", did you? This is the sentence on the article immediately before the Table of Contents.
There is no evidence of the alleged right in medieval Europe.
Droit de seigneur is a chimera, a phantom, a myth, and a malicious piece of propaganda.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

^"one in . . . and onefor"
^"If you are going to appropriate"

. I answered, and his twelve year old brain thought how I said “dengue” was the same of nickname for his dangly parts.

Ha! Lyndon B. Johnson called his "Jumbo." I am not making this up.

Eric H@ 290

Kids shedding virus or germs of any sort can certainly be kept home from school.

That sure worked out well back in 1950’s – 1970’s before widespread use of vaccines, didn’t it? /sarcasm

Can you say empty classrooms, Eric H? I don’t want to go back to that world.

it correctly associates two serious forms of unwelcome and intrusive attention that is unimaginably horrible

When I was a kid, I was terrified of needles. I had to be held down by a nurse one time...I was a tall kid.
That experience, not unimaginable nor uncommon, has absolutely nothing to do with rape. Zero.

the word “rape” is overused to describe trivial matters of “hurt feelings”, “day after remorse” and other foolishness

You already told us this is what you believe. Don't bother 'feigning indignation.'

Nice try. Yes indeed the man advocating against non-consensual injections is, in the minds of the demented fool somehow "pro rape" while the folks pushing mandatory injections are "anti-rape" Got it.

As for the "hurt feelings" example, I had something like this in mind: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/04/lesbians-claim-mental-rape-afte…

Have to wonder if there are any among the Borg here that ever declared themselves "pro choice". It'd be a wondrous example of cognitive dissonance given how darned upset so many here seem to get when it comes to vaccine choice.

AdamG (apologies to the host... in excitement I put the addressee name in the "name field)

Nice try. Yes indeed the man advocating against non-consensual injections is, in the minds of the demented fool somehow “pro rape” while the folks pushing mandatory injections are “anti-rape” Got it.

As for the “hurt feelings” example, I had something like this in mind: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/04/lesbians-claim-mental-rape-afte…

Have to wonder if there are any among the Borg here that ever declared themselves “pro choice”. It’d be a wondrous example of cognitive dissonance given how darned upset so many here seem to get when it comes to vaccine choice.

Julian Frost... first night rights in Feudal society I had thought to be well documented, but anyway that's great news if it was a mystical legend. Doesn't have much to do with the argument. Obviously the point is all forms of rape whether by force or threat of consequence are unacceptable and should not be considered as "up for discussion". (Obviously)

Science Mom... obviously your manners and logical comprehension are well matched in the range of 2 or 3 out of 10 possible points. But anyway always nice to hear from the voice of "science"! I have to ask whether you ever represented yourself as "pro choice". It'd seem a wild case of cognitive dissonance since you're so rabidly anti-choice when it comes to personal health.

Eric H: and vaccination is still not rape.You have already been called out by the commentators here, some of whom have actual experience of rape. Kindly stop using such a dishonest and hurtful analogy.
SB277 does not mandate vaccination, it just makes it harder to not vaccinate.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Militant Agnostic... yes indeed... the man advocating consent in all injection scenarios is "pro rape"... or better yet "rape denier"... And of course I eat live puppies for breakfast and am otherwise very very bad for having the nerve to propose individuals make their own decisions for shots and other health matters. Keep up the great work!

No defense of "day after remorse?" Got it.

the man advocating consent in all injection scenarios is “pro rape”…

Seriously, Jizzmop, you are a disgusting and vile human being. Go crawl back in the sewer, already.

He likes all this rape talk. I'd bet my house on it.

OK, I'll play, since I have one vaccine on my record that nobody else has mentioned: tuberculosis.

I was also vaccinated against smallpox and polio as a child and had the MMR and TDaP, plus a bonus measles vaccination in college because it was quicker than getting my parents to dig out old records to check. In recent years I've added the hepatitis B and shingles vaccines.

Nobody is stopping you from making your own decisions, Eric H.

@JP #388
I got both chickenpox and rotavirus just before either vaccine was released and really wished I had them. I was one of those kids who got post varicella ITP and a HepC scare from the immunoglobulin they gave me to treat it. With the rotavirus I passed out shortly after the symptoms started and woke up a few days later with an IV in my leg because I was so dehydrated they had to use one of the big ones.

Haven't had the joy of smallpox either, but I did develop a allergy to the TB skin test. Since I work with TB I have to get tested twice a year and developed a fist sized lump with the last one. It's Q-Golds from here on out for me.

By Sian Williams (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

individual vaccine choice is as non-negotiable as vile old traditions like Droit du seigneur

Not that this bit of typing on your part makes any obvious sense as an English clause, but I'm mildly amused that you pulled out a W—dia link that correctly points out that it never existed in the first place.

Which is an improvement over the rest of your dismal performance, as least.

A question for Eric H and Eric McKillop:
Which (if any) among this list of diseases would you like your child(ren) to suffer through? Which would you prefer that your child(ren) never experience?

Diphtheria, Hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type b, Measles, Mumps, Pertussis (whooping cough), Poliomyelitis, Rubella, Tetanus, Varicella (chickenpox)

Please explain your choices.

JP: "Ha!"

Being only twelve years old I only got the gist of his comment. I was really confused by it. Though I do sometimes refer to certain male anatomy as their dingly dangly bits, which sometimes does their thinking.

I can't believe this conversation is happening, least of all in the U.S. In a country where the threat of terrorism in the form of biological warfare is a definite possibility, allowing people to go without vaccination is a threat to national security. Any physician who opposes vaccination should, IMO, have his license pulled. As for the rest of the radicalized, ignorant movement, I wonder how many, no matter their age, would dare to venture into the Amazon without vaccination.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Julian Frost... "called out by a commentator" that's deep. OK so nobody here likes the comparison between the two horrible scenarios of injection less genuine coerced consent. So if it makes all the Borg here happy, let's just say I'm "pro choice". Happy?

Chemmomo... I believe I had chickenpox as a kid. To my understanding that provides long term immunity, whereas the corresponding vaccine requires regular boosters. But maybe I'm wrong.

To answer the question, I'd say none. I'd also prefer they don't suffer through permanent brain damage nor any of the other symptoms routinely associated with imperfect vaccine products.

Best solution to keep once eradicated illness at bay is proper screening of immigrant carriers. Also, with illnesses that are well managed by available vaccines, offer them with credible information so that individuals interested in protection can make the best choices.... Oh there's that C word again... "choice"!

At JP, not sure why "JizzmoP" is so prominent in all your thoughts while sitting at computer. Anyway perhaps it's time to engage the parental filters to prevent over exertion and whatever special cleanup protocols that might be required in the aftermath.

Unbelievable! The idiot actually linked to Jim Hoft, SMOTI, "The Stupidest Man on the Internet"!

By The Very Rever… (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric H: "Chemmomo… I believe I had chickenpox as a kid. To my understanding that provides long term immunity, whereas the corresponding vaccine requires regular boosters. But maybe I’m wrong. "

Yes, you are wrong. Getting chicken pox does not guarantee immunity. Plus it provides the dubious opportunity to get shingles, sometimes more than once.

The virus is never eliminated from your body. It hides out in your nervous system, and will emerge to cause misery when you are stressed.

Obviously you are as well acquainted with this virus as you are with high school American Government (so when did you drop out of high school, or did you just space out from tenth grade on?).

At JP, not sure why “JizzmoP” is so prominent in all your thoughts while sitting at computer.

Because it's what I've decided to call you, dummy.

I believe I had chickenpox as a kid. To my understanding that provides long term immunity, whereas the corresponding vaccine requires regular boosters.

The chickenpox vaccine does indeed require one booster shot, but it is pretty freaking hilarious that you think that that is somehow a bigger risk than, say, the varicella virus hanging out in your spine for the rest of your life and maybe giving you shingles. On the upside, since you did have chickenpox, maybe you will get shingles!

I see Chris has typed faster than I have.

Hope that helps clear that mess, or should our friend JP deploy his “jizzmop?”

I'm not sure what utility you imagine you could have here.

Second, the recently vaccinated child is more of a danger to be around than any other child. Just look at the signs on the door of any hospital treating the immune suppressed.

It's kind of cute the way antivaccine tropes almost instantly turn into a game of Telephone. There are two basic loci here; Eric McKillop's was circulated by, e.g., "Dr." Megan Heimer back in February, referring to the end of the St. Jude's guidelines for inpatient visitors.

There's a separate version with added conspiracy flavor that refers to Hopkins.

Best solution to keep once eradicated illness at bay is proper screening of immigrant carriers [sic].

Strange that the U.S. wound up exporting measles to Mexico and Canada (to the tune of three digits for the latter) as a result of the Disneyland outbreak.

What would make more sense in terms of this squirming point would be to quarantine all inbound travelers without vaccine documentation, which would avoid things such as "Dr. Bob's" index case.

Ha! Lyndon B. Johnson called his “Jumbo.” I am not making this up.

Something something Cheney photo something.

[Droit du seigneur] Doesn’t have much to do with the argument.

Then I guess the nimrod who raised the topic as a dispositive debate-winner must be a bit of an barmpot.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Eric @430 (my emphasis)

To answer the question, I’d say none.

Then get your own kid(s) vaccinated against those diseases, and make sure your community is vaccinated as well.

That is what SB277 is about.

"OK that comment #30 is there… so I’ll assume I may respond in my usual civil manner (somewhat unique on this thread) "

said the lying assclown. Hilarious.

@Eric H: No point in attempting to post at Mercola's site. I've tried that in the past, only to have my contradicting facts blocked.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 22 Jul 2015 #permalink

Simple click-bait to get people to Mercola's site - perahps Eric is getting paid by the "click" or gets a referral fee?

@JP

Jeezums, am I the only person who didn’t get the smallpox vaccine around here?

I didn't get the smallpox vaccine, though I was born in the UK in the early 60s, and there were outbreaks in the UK around that time (worth a read, if you have a minute). My father, who was a family doctor, figured the vaccine's risks outweighed its potential benefits, but he died before I thought to ask him his exact reasoning.

Looking back I see that more people in the UK at that time died from side effects of the smallpox vaccine than died of smallpox, making this a rational decision (though perhaps not a very social one), unlike those who are afraid of the less than 1 in a million risk of serious adverse events after MMR but, weirdly, not afraid of measles which causes encephalitis, pneumonia and death a thousand times more often than the vaccine. Also, why this fear of vaccine-shedding in the vaccinated, when it is a million times greater in those with the disease itself? Odd.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

In Canada, measles was thought to be eradicated in 1998. But last year (2014) in British Columbia, an outbreak of measles involving over 400 cases was traced to a Christian school known for their “conservative” views. Declining rates of vaccination in Canada are a wake-up call for parents who are not old enough to know the consequences:

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Measles+virus+tracked+though+genomic…

Meanwhile, a recent genomic study has traced another outbreak of measles in the B.C and beyond to a single individual visiting from China in 2010:

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/29/infdis.jiv271.ab…

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Correction: another outbreak in Vancouver and beyond to a single introduction of genotype H1 measles virus isolated in China, while other cases in the province were identified as the D8 genotype known in the U.S., India, and Italy.

By Lighthorse (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Back to "Dr." Bob: I work in the field of special ed., .Hhe clearly doesn't realize that a bogus diagnosis of a some learning impairment or a minimal impairment that is real does not automatically mean the child will be on an IEP. They have to meet eligibility requirements, which often, depending on where you live, means showing a true educational impact of said condition. Kids usually have to be evaluated to determine that, and to be assessed they have to be enrolled in school. Conceivably, a parent could come in with a private assessment, but the school still has to show an educational impact. Furthermore, IEPs don't typically state the amount of time kids spend in regular ed., but how much time in special ed, As Dr. Hickie noted, that might be on a "walk-in" basis.

In any case, making the determination of eligibility still takes resources and time. Having to spend those resources to determine that a child is not eligible, the parents just wanted to use the sped system to avoid vaccination is a colossal waste of scarce resources. Not to mention a waste of time for educators who are trying to get special ed supports in place for kids who do need them, and a slap in the face to parents who are genuinely trying to advocate for their kids.

Somehow I doubt that the parents in the room at Bob's little confab realized just how selfish such a tactic is.

By the by, just read a little gem on the NBC News website on a study out of Penn State that indicated almost 97% of the increase in autism diagnosis in the last ten years or so were offset by decreasing diagnoses of other conditions that co-occur with autism. It's a news item, and I didn't see the real study, so I don't know if it's any good.

I do wonder if there will be fireworks-like display of head explosions over at AoA?

Eric H,

OK so nobody here likes the comparison between the two horrible scenarios of injection less genuine coerced consent.

Since no one is advocating any sort of coercion, I don't see how the comparison is valid. Public schools have conditions for attendance, including vaccination requirements. It is those schools' responsibilities to make them as safe an environment as possible. Excluding those who are not prepared to comply with those conditions is not coercion by any definition I am familiar with, any more than my requirement to be vaccinated against hepatitis B to work in a hospital lab, even if I have no patient contact, is coercion.

Chemmomo… I believe I had chickenpox as a kid. To my understanding that provides long term immunity, whereas the corresponding vaccine requires regular boosters. But maybe I’m wrong.

You are wrong. This paper estimates that immunity to varicella after vaccination has a half life of 50 years - that means that after 50 years, immunity will have only diminished by 50% on average. This isn't as long as measles (half-life 3,000 years!), mumps (500 years), rubella (100+ years) and EBV (11,000+ years). As you can see, the claims you have seen on antivaxx websites about vaccine-induced immunity being short-lived compared to that from wild infection are untrue. Boosters are required to prevent shingles, but it occurs more frequently after wild varicella infection than after vaccination.

I’d also prefer they don’t suffer through permanent brain damage nor any of the other symptoms routinely associated with imperfect vaccine products.

I am not aware of any confirmed cases of permanent brain damage caused by vaccines on the current vaccine schedule (Hannah Poling had multiple health issues, including chronic ear infections, so I'm not convinced by her case). If any vaccine does cause brain damage, it does so so rarely that we cannot be sure it happens at all i.e. in fewer than 1 in a million vaccine doses. Vaccine encephalitis is now thought to be a myth.

Best solution to keep once eradicated illness at bay is proper screening of immigrant carriers.

Over a million people enter the US every day, so good luck with that plan.

Also, with illnesses that are well managed by available vaccines, offer them with credible information so that individuals interested in protection can make the best choices…. Oh there’s that C word again… “choice”!

There is plenty of credible information out there. If you don't believe the CDC perhaps you might find health authorities in other countries more credible, a UK site for example. If the CDC is crooked, why is it that every public health authority on the planet, including those in North Korea, Iran and Russia, supports vaccination? Is it because they have been conned by the CDC or is it because there is a vast body of evidence that supports their efficacy and safety?

No “defense” is required as I was referring to the absurdity of a law that harms real rape victims as is explained well enough in this article.

An article that complains that affirmative consent, i.e. making certain your partner consents to sexual activity, "trivializes rape and brands innocent people as rapists"? Really? I think you might benefit from taking a critical look at the reliability of the sources you rely on.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

A good point Kreb - there are a lot of countries out there who have vested interests in making the United States look bad (you've mentioned a few of them).

If there was real evidence that vaccines were harmful & the CDC was covering it up, those nations would be more than happy to use that information against us.

In fact, even Cuba has invested heavily in indigenous vaccine research & has made some very novel advances (including anti-cancer vaccines) - and you'd think that they, of all countries, would make hay of any evidence of vaccine harm.

Eric's position doesn't even make sense on the face of it.

Since Eric asked, I'll answer. Yes, Eric, I *am* pro-choice - I am for a woman's right to choose what is done with her body. Since that choice has no affect on the community at large, I don't see why you are comparing it to vaccination choice, which does. After all, my having an abortion does not put my neighbors at any risk. However, my having measles, and being infectious up to 2 days BEFORE I show any symptoms, so I could possibly infect everyone around me: babies too young for the vaccine, immunocompromised persons, and those for whom the vaccine doesn't take.

In fact, as I've said before, I am actually one of those people. I'm NOT measles immune, even though I've had the MMR several times. Nor am I mumps immune, despite having HAD the mumps. And at my current age, I don't really want to have them. Unfortunately, I also had chicken pox. So I have the potential joys of shingles (and can't wait till I can get the vaccine). The chicken pox vaccine, Eric, does not lead to shingles. And the pain of shingles is one that anyone who's experienced it would tell you they'd rather not have again.

By the way...I love the way Eric has decided it's only those darn illegal immigrants that bring in VPDs. It's not like several of the last cases were brought back by real, true blue unvaccinated Americans or anything. It HAS to be the dirty, unwashed immigrants.

He is getting more and more disgusting. (I ignore his rape stuff. As a surviver, if I read it, I'd want to throttle him.)

@Eric H

I see you still haven't provided any evidence for your claims. And no response to my questions at #319 and #332? There have been a lot of comments, so maybe you just missed them. Here they are again:

#319

Eric, way up at the beginning of the comments, you implied that you were opposed to “the low quality shots wrongly declared “safe and effective””. Can you please tell us which shots you think are wrongly declared “safe and effective”? What is your evidence for such a belief?

As for loss of medical choice, could you please enumerate instances where citizens of California have been forcibly vaccinated? I’m sure you must have examples of how jackbooted government thugs have busted down someone’s door, restrained them and shoved a needle in their arm while their families members have been held at bay?

#332

As for viral shedding, that is primarily a theoretical risk in US childhood vaccines that use a live virus (MMR, varicella, FluMist, rotavirus). Since these use attenuated viruses, the likelihood of any shedding causing illness in contacts is exceptionally low. In fact, I can’t find even a case study of a secondary contact being infected by shed vaccine-strain virus.

So, Eric H. Since you bring up vaccinated people as being a greater risk to others than “healthy” (scare quotes used because infected individuals are frequently infectious before they show any signs or symptoms) unvaccinated children, perhaps you can point me to what must be large numbers of cases of vaccinated people infecting others with vaccine-strain virus.

Finally, as others have pointed out, natural infection with chicken pox doesn't give you lifelong immunity. For some, they will have no lasting immunity and can suffer from primary measles infection again. Others who do develop immunity to primary infection are still at risk of shingles, particularly without boosting (natural or from immunization).

Krebiozen, thanks for the link.

@ JP:

Chris and I welcome you to the 'boys' club'.
- Dennis ( sic)

-btw-
Gamondes has a new piece of work at AoA concerning 'Pandemonium".
Sadly / happily there is no accompanying written content.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

He linked to Gateway Pundit as a source. He linked to The Dumbest Man On The Internet.

I'm done. This guy can NOT be for real.

By Chan Kobun, th… (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Lighthorse - glad to see you again.

@JP - I think he likes you.

@Eric H - I am neither educated nor part of the medical system. Please explain to me (you might have to use little words) why the Disneyland outbreak had nothing to do with people not vaccinating, and everything to do with diseased immigrants. I haven't seen much about that version here. Maybe I am too far away.

Could you let me know which vaccines are still safe? My youngest granddaughter is only seven months old, and if there are vaccines in the schedule that have more frequent, more severe side effects than the illnesses they are meant to prevent, I want to know.

I don't know what the scientific name of the disease is here. A friend of ours who moved from the north was hoping to avoid vaccinating his cattle. He lost the majority of his calves that year to something called blackleg. He warns all new farmers here to vaccinate now. Do you have advice for what to do for the cattle that will work as well as a vaccine?

Question: what makes Jim Hoft, SMOTI, “The Stupidest Man on the Internet”?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

@MI Dawn #454
Or that the measles most likely spread to the states of northwestern Mexico thanks to all those unvaccinated Americans.

By Sian Williams (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

<I’d also prefer they don’t suffer through permanent brain damage nor any of the other symptoms routinely associated with imperfect vaccine products.

I've posted this before but am posting it again in the hopes that it won't be too far over Eric H's head.

If one million kids are given vaccine (MMR):
1000 will have a febrile convulsion.
30 will get thrombocytopenia.
10 will get a severe allergic reaction.
1 will get encephalitis (ADEM).
If one million kids get measles (in Europe, in the 21st century):
200 will die.
100,000 will be ill enough to need hospitalisation.
90,000 will get otitis media.
80,000 will get gastroenteritis.
50,000 will get primary viral or secondary bacterial pneumonia.
5000 will have a febrile convulsion.
1000 will get encephalitis (ADEM or SSPE), 100 of whom will die and 2-300 will have residual brain damage.
1000 will get various other problems such as hepatitis, myocarditis, thrombocytopenia or miscarriage if caught in pregnancy.

(The Guardian, UK)

HOWEVER anti-vaxxers wrongly believe that the MMR causes autism which is a risk of one in 100 ( or 50).

THAT number blinds them to reality.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Funny how Dr. Bob would list "autism" as a medically valid reason for not vaccinating, given that many of the anti-vax whackjobs claim that ALL autism is caused by vaccinations.

By Dan Welch (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

JJ at # 450:

a study out of Penn State that indicated almost 97% of the increase in autism diagnosis in the last ten years or so were offset by decreasing diagnoses of other conditions that co-occur with autism.

It's old news, as this article review from 2009 shows.

If you want the short version of this post–about 26% of the increase in autism counts in California can be attributed to changes in diagnositic practices leading to people being classified autistic (or autistic plus MR) who were classified with mental retardation by pre-1992 standards.

The current article just has confirms with more robust data. I will scurry about to find the citation for the Penn State article..

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/09/11/diagnostic-change-and-the-i…

MI Dawn asks (#37),

I want ONE antivaccinationist to answer this question:

What vaccines AREN’T safe?

MJD responds,

I will give it a shot. even though I'm not the "one' you refer to.

The U.S. government publishes a growing list of vaccines that should be avoided.

http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/safety/should/

The decisions parents/doctors have to make to determine if this or that vaccine shouldn't be administered is frightening and becoming overwhelmingly stressful in my opinion.

Of course SB-277 affects the decision process if parents in California need their child to get a public education.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Science Mom… obviously your manners and logical comprehension are well matched in the range of 2 or 3 out of 10 possible points. But anyway always nice to hear from the voice of “science”! I have to ask whether you ever represented yourself as “pro choice”. It’d seem a wild case of cognitive dissonance since you’re so rabidly anti-choice when it comes to personal health.

Considering you have not qualified a single claim you have made nor seem to understand your own metaphors, your "rating" of "logical comprehension" are sheer projection. I am pro-choice and not at all inconsistent with advocating vaccines and other SBM. What part of SB277 forces vaccination or any medical procedure for that matter? Why is science in quotes Eric? Another foreign concept to you like herd immunity?

By Science Mom (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Liz Ditz and JJ:

http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h1961.long

Conclusions The prevalence of the autism symptom phenotype has remained stable in children in Sweden while the official prevalence for registered, clinically diagnosed, autism spectrum disorder has increased substantially. This suggests that administrative changes, affecting the registered prevalence, rather than secular factors affecting the pathogenesis, are important for the increase in reported prevalence of autism spectrum disorder.

In that case suppose I decide I’m going to come to you with a shot I declare “safe and effective”, unless you can prove to me that it’s dangerous. Does this somehow strike you as logical?

If you can at the time you're claiming your shot is safe provide a body of evidence that's equivalent to the body of evidence attesting to vaccine safety and efficacy (pre-clinical and clinical Phase I, II and III trials, large scale epidemiologic studies by mulitple independent researachers and public and private health agencies in multiple nations, etc.) yes: that strikes me as logical.

"If in the future you’d like to be informed so that you can blather more intelligently, do the research whether by reading from something beyond the AMA and CDC endorsed list of propaganda or via a playlist I prepared just for you:

https://youtu.be/K1m3TjokVU4?list=PLVzkiC8oZ1g6R9akaiOdScdaK8DITW6MS" --> Eric Hanson.

Really, "do some research" ? An then put a youtube link. Oh c'mon, how can you be so shameless ? At least you make me laugh. Big research work on youtube, nice, I understand now why you got a hard time with all the matter.

MJD, I read the webpage you linked to. It lists specific conditions (many of them temporary) to avoid. The few permanent conditions are very rare indeed.

The decisions parents/doctors have to make to determine if this or that vaccine shouldn’t be administered is frightening and becoming overwhelmingly stressful in my opinion.

Such a pity that in the modern world we don't have experts in health and healing to interpret the evidence and help us make informed decisions.
Oh, wait.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Juian Frost says (#474),

Oh wait.

MJD says,

Is "Oh, wait" an acronym for allergy-induced regressive autism from vaccinations?

Our health, what autism is temporary.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

@Denice:

I do seem to be generally presumed to be male by our various visitors, for whatever reason.

Michael, I think it's great you stepped up to the plate to answer the question! Unfortunately, you then failed to answer it, instead posting the US government's quite reasonable list of contraindications for specific vaccines. So, please try again:

Which vaccines do YOU think should be avoided entirely? Not, which vaccines has the CDC advised are unsafe for people with specific conditions. Which ones do YOU think we should all be avoiding?

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

There are countless documents and stats that indicate risks

Where can i find these documents?

Tell you what: to make responding as simple as possible please provide a link to whatever document in your perosnal opinion presents most credible and compelling scientific evidence demonstrating the risks association with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the diseases those vacccines protect against, and we'll discuss it.

We know that Hannah Pauling’s Autism was caused by vaccines. Even the Vaccine Court agreed.

Hanah Polling has been diagnosed with a genetic mitochondrial disorder, not an autism spectrum disorder. The NVICP compensated Hanah Polling for the table injury encephalopathy.

Note that in call ases where compensation is given for table injuries, the plaintif need not demonstrate nor does the court find that the injury for which compensation is granted was caused by the vaccine received.

Details matter.

<blockquote.Is “Oh, wait” an acronym for allergy-induced regressive autism from vaccinations?
Since "allergy-induced regressive autism from vaccinations" doesn't exist, and the letters don't spell out that acronym, and you failed to detect mine, I'll just say you fail at sarcasm.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Calli Arcale asks (#477),

Which ones do YOU think we should all be avoiding?

MJD says,

In my opinion, there is no one vaccine that we should all be avoiding.

Based on CDC recommendations (see #468), there are of course many vaccines that we should all consider avoiding.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

I’ve never presented myself as committed to an anti-vax point of view.

Correction: You have never acknowledged that you are committed to an anti-vax point of view. You in fact have put forth a common but utterly nonsensical variation of the "No True Scotsman" argument, that you cannot be anti-vax now because, at some point in the past, there was some vaccine that you didn't reject.

I am however extremely serious about medical choice and informed consent.

And what argument do you think is supported by the fact that you are "serious"? The paranoid schizophrenic who assaulted a TV reporter on the street demanding "What is the frequency, Kenneth?" was certainly "serious" about uncovering a government conspiracy involving beamed radio frequencies being used to violate the rights of citizens. However - sorry if this comes as a shock to you - there actually was no such conspiracy.

For now it seems to me that some vaccines cause more harm then good, but the burden of proof is on the advocate of mandatory shots, not the man with the audacity to claim right of refusal on any product including vaccines.

The question of whether vaccines do more harm than good is a scientific question, and so the rules of scientific burden of proof apply. Under those rules, the burden of proof is on those who want to CHALLENGE the clear consensus on vaccines. The man who says "Well, *I* refuse to accept the evidence that's already been amassed, so the burden of proof is still on everyone BUT ME!" is proving nothing except his own personality problems.

Even if every last bit of the present schedule of shots are proven a clear cause for “greater good”, the notion that there is a “social contract” for me to accept someone else’s idea of “good medicine” is both ridiculous and the pursuit of it, dangerous.

Your actions affect others whether you acknowledge that reality or not, so the question is not 'why should I act for the greater good?' but 'why should society tolerate you acting for the greater harm?'

There might actually be a rational answer to that question if there was some sort of trade-off involved that meant you had to act against your own self-interest in order to serve the greater good. But that's not the case except in your willfully deluded imagination.

If there is such a “social contract” as someone else on the thread suggested, I’d sure like to see where my signature appears. The investigative “who’s who” research here is excellent so it shouldn’t take long to find.

Your unsuccessful attempts at humor are noted; however, they change nothing. Take advantage of the benefits of living in your society (the fact that you feel yourself affected by SB277 proves that you do) and you have an obligation to fulfill the corresponding responsibilities. Period. Whining that you didn't ever STATE that you accepted your responsibilities means zero. If you didn't want the responsibilities, you shouldn't have accepted the benefits.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Vicki, I've had BCG as well.

Quark, Eric H has already explained to the commentariat why linking to Youtube is perfectly valid. He has done the research, he has watched the movie. He knows more than doctors at Kaiser. He knows fascism, collectivism, informed consent, and he probably looked up misogyny last night. He's a regular Renaissance man, is our Eric H. And would he be a Renaissance man without vaccines? Who knows. I just don't know where he finds the time to sell cars.

Julian Frost says (#480),

the letters don’t spell out that acronym

MJD says,

I know your not a frosted-flake Julian. :-)

Here's the acronym, again, from (#475).

Oh, wait = Our health, what autism is temporary.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Getting chicken pox does not guarantee immunity.

Some individuals just lack the ability to develop a protective titer in response to the dieases or the vaccine. My son has had chicken pox thjree times (confirmed as varicella).

the second time got a "Well, his sometimes happens" shrug. The third time was more like "WTF?"

Re: boradened diagostic criteria, a recent study out of Denklark indicates that better than 60% of that nations observed increase in diagnoses of autism spectrum disorders can be accounted for as a result of broadened diagnostic criteria couples with changes in reporting procedures (changes in the diagnostic criteria accounted for a third of the increase in autism, with inclusion outpatient diagnoses in the statistics--not previously included--accounted for 42 percent of the increase).

Thank you immensely, ORAC, for exposing this fraudulent and deceitful man. "Dr." Bob is probably enjoying the fact that SB277 passed, despite his statements to the contrary, since he will stand to profit immensely from it. "Dr." Bob has always liked making money in different ways than other doctors do. Why bother taking insurance, seeing Medicaid patients, and working a long day when you can charge 2X what most peds charge for an office visit, and payment is CASH ONLY? With his "Vaccine Book", which has no science to back it up since "Dr." Sears is not an academic or researching doc, he can continue to cash in on ill-informed parents. A few yrs ago, "Dr." Bob used to run autism seminars at his office in OC. He would have large group (10-15 families or more $$) meetings and parents were charged $250 per meeting. They would not be able to meet with "Dr." Bob individually -- if they wanted to do that, then the charge was $300 per 30 minutes. AND the child was not to come to the appointment. I have never met anyone who said his program helped their child with autism. He is a charlatan and in the olden days he would have been tarred, feathered and run out of town! Today, he is laughing all the way to the bank.

By readerrabbitgirldoc (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Dr. Bob is also doing a huge disservice to special needs children in California. He is encouraging parents of neurotypical ("normal") children to demand an IEP and to make up some BS diagnosis, like "speech problem" etc. so that kids can be exempted. It is difficult enough with most district's backlogs, to get an IEP, now we'll have these entitled yuppies demanding IEP's for their kids who don't need them! Way to go "Dr." Bob -- shows you really care about California's special needs children.

By readerrabbitgirldoc (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

"If you didn’t want the responsibilities, you shouldn’t have accepted the benefits."

Which really is it for public education. You're paying for someone else to teach your children so take the responsibilities that go with it or teach them at home.

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Michael@468

You didn’t link to a list of vaccines the CDC regards as unsafe

You instead linked to guidelines indicating what pre-existing health conditions or other factors contra-indicate vaccination, on a vaccine-by-vaccine basis

"I have actually heard from a number of people that their 30s sucked considerably less than their 20s."

JP, I concur with this. You see, the best is yet to come!

By Not a Troll (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Given that MJD is nothing more than a pathetic nuisance and that various commenters can't resist responding to MJD's inane trolling, and in doing so just encourage more of the same, wouldn't it just be easier to ban and be done with MJD?

Hey, give MJD some credit. He linked to a very useful site, that allows people to know when they shouldn't get a certain vaccine. While it doesn't prove what he says it does, it still is a useful site.

DGR says (#491),

Given that MJD is nothing more than a pathetic nuisance...

@Orac,

How do I get my picture connected to my username "Michael J. Dochniak" here at Respectful Insolence?

If anyone can help with this just send me an e-mail.

Thank you.

By Michael J. Dochniak (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

Please, please, please - just ban him already.....this broken record needs to go away.

Got all I need... from MI Dawn

"Since Eric asked, I’ll answer. Yes, Eric, I *am* pro-choice – I am for a woman’s right to choose what is done with her body. Since that choice has no affect on the community at large..."

This is what I call cognitive dissonance. "My body my choice" apparently only applies when there's a hapless helpless passenger on board to be brutally slaughtered for "greater good".

Also demonstrates a deep overall commitment to collectivist ideals, so the sacrifice of the "individual" is deemed meaningless less any "effect on the community".

As for the smear of links provided whether via Youtube, Mercola and etc. I shared what strike me as sensible resources to point out problems with vaccine safety. Youtube is not "a source"... just a form of media. The content of each clip stands or falls on merit.

I am not an MD so all the PHd wizards here have the opportunity to point out any point made on any clip that they believe contradicts "science".

I am here to learn and to teach. I teach that no collective body has the right to inject an individual. I am most willing to learn about whatever concerns I have about the shots I've already blindly trusted for self and family.

Rather than continual challenge for still more "evidence" from me, the "non MD", why not review the content I generously provided and debunk whatever false information there.

The usual Rules for Radicals smear doesn't fly with me nor anyone the least bit in scientific in their own exploration of facts, so we can skip the "oh that link is from the dumbest man on Internet" which obviously proves nothing.

As for Ms. JP, my apologies. Guess it's not all that surprising that a female in these troubled times goes on threads to talk about "JizzmoPs", but I guess whatever man you settle down with will be lucky that you're so committed to cleaning up after whatever afternoon delight.

You didn't come here to learn....that much was obvious from comment #1.

@Eric H (#253):

Please also inform how there can be a guaranty that there is no unexpected virus in a batch.

"I'm a lively little virus in a vaccine batch,
A vaccine batch,
A vaccine batch.
I'm a lively little virus in a vaccine batch,
Oh won't you come and get infected by me."

By Richard Smith (not verified) on 23 Jul 2015 #permalink

And Eric H apparently only came here to teach by example how to dodge questions and fail to support claims.

Why is it that those opposed to vaccines (either the concept or some ill-defined "low quality shots wrongly declared “safe and effective”") have such a hard time making cogent, logically sound arguments backed by evidence?