That school in California that tried to teach a creationist "philosophy" course was chewed out by Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute. Luskin's statement consisted of the usual folderol, but the outright fraud of several statements leapt out at me.
My name is Casey Luskin and I am an attorney representing the Discovery Institute. The Discovery Institute is a think tank based out of Seattle, Washington that represents a large number of scientists who do scientific research into intelligent design.
A "large number of scientists"? How many?
Scientists "who do scientific research into intelligent design"? Name them. Tell us exactly where they are doing their research and what specific questions they are trying to answer.
But if you do not cancel this course, and if you let this lawsuit go forward, you are going to lose and there will be a dangerous legal precedent set which could threaten the teaching of intelligent design on the national level. Such a decision would also threaten the scientific research of many scientists who support intelligent design.
See questions above. What scientists? What research?
I'm really fed up with this phony baloney the DI keeps pushing. There are darned few scientists backing Intelligent Design, and those few don't do any research, nor can they tell anyone else what research could be done.
Because of the young earth creationist history of this course, this course is not legally defensible and it should be cancelled. Thank you.
Casey Luskin got his wish. The course has been cancelled. Not without a final irony, though:
Sharon Lemburg, a social studies teacher and soccer coach who was teaching "Philosophy of Design," defended the course in a letter to the weekly Mountain Enterprise.
"I believe this is the class that the Lord wanted me to teach," she wrote.
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This is just too damn funny. DI burying its own material, because it knows any further attempt to teach it will result in more court losses. lol
I really wish this sight had some sort of, "Track this thread.", option... Its now impossible to tell who or even if anyone replies to something, without going back through pages of your posts. And I have had such replies appear to things *weeks* old on the other one that I would never even know to look at here. :( Definitely one annoyance about the way this one works.
Not that I am suspicious or anything... not that Fundies would lie for Jesus or anything, but...is it possible to check for any large recent donations to her Fundy church?
Could be a Pulitzer for someone....
"'I believe this is the class that the Lord wanted me to teach,' she wrote."
It must be a terrible thing for her Lord to be so omnipotent, yet for her to not have enough faith in him to win a court battle so his wish for her to teach could be carried out.
It must be a terrible thing for her Lord to be so omnipotent, yet for her to not have enough faith in him to win a court battle so his wish for her to teach could be carried out.
[Engage Sarcasm]
Oh, the Lord's omnipotent. How do you think it designed a universe where it's impossible to prove it exists?
[Disengage]
This is censorship. These scientific materialistic IDers want to prevent alternative theories from being presented to children, preferring instead their own version of science stripped of any deity.
I protest strenuously this materialist assault on following the evidence where it leads. The simple reliance upon God and upon historical texts like the Bible are anathema to scientific materialists like the IDers, and they push their atheistic agenda upon all others.
Anyhow, that's what they say (with minor variations) when we try to protect the integrity of science. To be sure, they're not really scientific materialists, nor scientific in any way (except in jargon), but they are masquerading as pro-science as they attack real science in their bid to supplant science with ID.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm
Let me get this straight ... they want ID taught as science in science classes, but when it is taught in a philosophy class, they threaten to sue? WTF?
Ugh, nevermind, I totally misunderstood what was going on. This is the polar opposite of the kind of "teaching" on ID Paul Mirecki, amongst others, wanted to do.
Speaking of Mirecki, anyone heard anything lately? Did the cops return his computer? Did they apologise for seizing it?
I've been following this at Pat Hayes's site, but didn't know about the resolution. Your new site is looks good but... where is pirate mode???
"I believe this is the class that the Lord wanted me to teach,"
What, standard YECrap of the sort that was nixed by the courts 25 years ago? Only wrapped in the irrelevant title "Philosophy of Design"? Is there no end to the stupidity of these people?
And the DI said: "Oh #$%#, another Dover-style moron about to blow our cover story! Quick, send the black helicopters!"
Before I knew much about the evolution "debate," I read another attack on evolution that I think would be good to trot out for ID'ers. I forget the author, but it was called "Everything You Think You Know is Wrong" and it asserted that human beings were the result of an interplanetary breeding program with intelligent people of a tenth planet. This breeding program took people of said planet and interbred them with sasquatch to produce humans. It cited the usual claptrap (no transition fossils, etc) to claim that humans couldn't have evolved on earth. Incidentally, these aliens also are responsible for the Cambrian Explosion and Agrigulture.
Wouldn't THIS be fun to teach in high schools?
So, the silly little bint thought that "the Lord" wanted her to make Christians look like idiots?
Fascinating.
-jcr
it was called "Everything You Think You Know is Wrong" and it asserted that human beings were the result of an interplanetary breeding program with intelligent people of a tenth planet. This breeding program took people of said planet and interbred them with sasquatch to produce humans. It cited the usual claptrap (no transition fossils, etc) to claim that humans couldn't have evolved on earth. Incidentally, these aliens also are responsible for the Cambrian Explosion and Agrigulture.
I actually quite prefer that to the Genesis/creationist account.
Don't really think either should be taught in schools, tho...
This is such a load of crap. Everyone knows humans descend from the people on board a huge spaceship sent to prehistoric Earth carrying the entire middle classes as a way for the society they came from to get rid of them, and the Earth was designed as a giant computer meant to figure out the ultimate question whose answer is 42.
I'll give you philosophy of design:
Use as few parts as you can safely get away with.
Don't feel obligated to fill up free space unnecessarily.
Make sure you carry a backup weapon. I prefer the left arm rifles, since my AC's right arm sniper rifle isn't always enough, and I'd rather not have to go through the trouble of using the select weapon button. Those of you adept with laser blades might disagree. For missions, Exceed Orbit weapons work fairly well, but against human players, they're usually far too inaccurate...
What was I talking about, again?
"This breeding program took people of said planet and interbred them with sasquatch to produce humans."
If we came from Sasquatch, why are there still Sasquatches?
But seriously--if I were God I'd sue the Deception Institute. For defamation, or for the leaking of My secret intelligence (or the lack of it), I'm not sure, but I'd certainly have Eric Rothschild represent Me, were I He. It's all been just too much fun to quit the theatrics now.
I think this cries out for "teaching the controversy" about Intelligent Design...
...a large number of scientists who do scientific research...
Oh, criminently...Were these, like, scientific scientists? With, like, Master's degrees? In...Science?
What a maroon.
Well, some scientists do unscientific research - Behe comes to mind as a good example.
Re the Forbes article
Rural my ass. Frazier Park is suburban Los Angeles stuck out in Kern County. It's the Thousand Oaks of the 1980's.
Mike
It would really be interesting to know the names of the scientists trying to find a divine creator (impossible because natural tools cannot be used to find supernatural entities) or a hyperadvanced alien (what "intelligent" creature will waste its precious time making ape-like creatures evolve into hairless ape-like creatures who are playing with nukes?).
This is slightly off-track, but not really.
Have people listened to Al Gore's recent speech "On the Limits of Executive Power"� You can listen to it at www.c-span.org. It was breath-taking in its denunciation of the Bush presidency and its attempt to usurp congressional perogatives and infringe on the separation of powers and the rule of law. How does this relate to the controversy regarding ID? Well, the Bushies and the IDiots share the same disingenuous mindset. Read the following quote from Gore's speech:
"The rule of law makes us stronger by ensuring that decisions will be tested, studied, reviewed and examined through the processes of government that are designed to improve policy. And the knowledge that they will be reviewed prevents over-reaching and checks the accretion of power."
This is nearly a perfect analogue to the methodological naturalism that the IDiots disclaim. So Bush, in attempting to subvert the Constitution and the IDiots, in attempting to subvert the scientific method, share a common ideological proclivity for obfuscation and dishonesty in order to hoodwink the American people and impose an executive, cum theocratic, tyranny on the nation as a whole.
Judge Jones' opinion in following the rule of law was antithetical to the perverse logic of the IDiots and in sync with American jurisprudence and the age of enlightenment. Let's hope his decision has set the pendulum swinging and we can look back at the evolution/ID debate as a short-lived societal aberration.
"It would really be interesting to know the names of the scientists trying to find a divine creator"
Ah, Dr. Marco, you reminded me of a similar research program:
"All the rocket ships are climbing through the sky
The holy books are open wide
The doctors working day and night
But they'll never ever find that cure for love"
(Cohen L. et al 1988)
Or as P.J. is fond of asking ID folks, "Where's your lab? Where's your peer-reviewed research papers?"
How the hell can it be science if the ID folks don't even have a LAB, much less submit any papers based on their research in said lab? What, political lobbying is science nowdays?!
As for theories of evolution, I prefer the Tuxologist theory. In that theory, the Great Penguin created the world and everything in it, except for human beings, who are actually devolved from the only perfect creature on Earth, penguins. But never fear, all you need do is embrace your inner penguin and participate in the Sacrament of the Herring and you, too, can have the perfect peace and fresh breath of Tuxology!
- Badtux the Tuxologist Penguin
Hmmm, scientific studies for the good folks working in Intelligent Design. . .How about this:
Develop a model for measuring "design"; Perhaps some sort of complexity scanner or some such. Employ this to evaluate relative levels of design. Apply to non-diety (i.e. human) designed objects of known level of design, as well as low-design objects (like rocks, maybe?) for calibration, then apply to typical "Biological" materials. From this formulate a heirarchy. Humans should be at the top (right? "made in his image" and all that).
Also, while yer at it, make a chi detector. Oooh, and a pair of aura-vision goggles. And lastly, create a test that determines one's astrological sign WITHOUT birth info. (only using personal characteristics). C'mon people, yer scientists, right? . . .Hello?. . . Anyone?
I just want to clear up this 'large number' issue. Due to the wonder of computer software, any number can be a large number. Just crank up the font size and the digit 3, for instance, becomes as large as you want it to be. I like 72 point Tahoma myself ..
Go ahead, open up OpenOffice and make your own large number.
It's a mistake to call these Discovery Institute folks scientists. They are former scientists.
I believe the Lord didn't want that class taught at all, and so the Lord alerted one of his minions on Earth, Barry Lynn at AU, and invoked one of the Lord's swords (otherwise known as a lawsuit).
And since we won, why shouldn't we point out that the solution in California is, indeed, praise to God?
[two-bit preacher mode off]
I'm not sure how ironic you were being, but the large number of parents threatening to sue may have had more to do with the decision to cancel the course.
Hey, another fan of Leonard Cohen here!
BadTux: Does the Great Penguin smile down upon Linux users? I've considered converting to one. The other might follow.
I fear that some day someone will open an "Intelligent Design" laboratory just for the sake of bamboozling the ignorant. After all, there are laboratories in nonscientific subjects with legitimate uses. (I worked in an ethics laboratory while at CMU, for example.) It would not be a stretch (in the eyes of a charlatan or a True Believer (tm)) to use an illegitimate lab ... (Think also of those damned parapsychology labs ...)
Oops, the above about ID labs was from me, Keith Douglas. Guess you don't have to believe that ... PZ, do you really want to allow anonymous comments? (It was done simply by leaving the fields blank...)
Hi, coturnix--nice to hear we share that!
Proving the existence of an omnipotent God through speculative pseudoscience would be kinda like if a one dimensional being tried to prove the existence of a cat. Until that booming voice from the sky happens, trying to substantiate faith with human reality (not to mention unequivocally backing Bush) is making these people appear as though their god has abandoned them. DI, ID as science is a poor strategy.
If you want to see a perfect example of how the incurious nature of wingnut "conservatives" feeds both their own ignorance and the agenda of groups like the DI, check out this post:
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006/01/18/calif-school-cancels-intelli…
"Well, for all you Christians out there, the message is clear, keep your Christianity to your self and behind closed doors where it belongs. However, homosexuals and transsexuals you can do whatever you like, and please teach our children all about your life choices; what a country."
It would be easy to dismiss this as incoherent babble percolating strictly on America's fringes, I believe this, despite it being presented at the level of ambitious fifth-graders, is a fairly widely read blog.
Man, you really found a concentrated, crystalized chunk of idiotry, there, Beaming Visionary. Maybe we need to see if it's a cheap alternative to dilithium crystals, because I have a feeling there's no shortage of it in the nutbar quadrant of the blogosphere.
Since when is "Keep religion out of government institutions" equivalent to "Keep it in the closet"?
"I just want to clear up this 'large number' issue."
He! Large laugh.
Another, perhaps more reasonable explanation, is that DI is as bad at math as on science: "1 .. 2 .. large".
Casey Luskin is funny. He studied geology (I think he got to the masters level). Isn't it a coincidence that in the once science he knows something about, he doesn't side with the right wingnuts? He takes a young earther to task, but doesn't see that he is being just as kooky.
I have met him when I was at UCSD. He is a nice, nervous, faith-ridden guy, who just isn't that smart. He likes being caught up in the excitement of apologetics, feeling respected in the community of born agains. Compared to most of them, he is highly educated and intelligent. Can't run with the big dogs, though.