Facts never get in the way of a good myth

'Twas a time in history when much of such visioning was agoin on. Smith's LDS Church was about the only survivor of these new faiths.

BTW, it turns out that "delightsome" is a perfectly cromulent word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=delightsome

Not to mention that the native languages on the American continents aren't related to Hebrew (the switch to Aramaic hadn't been made at the time Nephi supposedly came to the Americas, so Hebrew was still the language they should have been speaking) in any way, shape or form. They're almost exclusively Asian.

When contradicted by both linguistic and genetic evidence, reality is hard for anyone not totally brainwashed to ignore.

They really hate it when you mention that the founders of the FARMS department at BYU all left the church because of their investigations into reality.

Don't worry, one of these years an LDS president will have a convenient revelation like the ones that ended polygamy and discrimination against black people. Then all will be well, until the next unavoidable collision with reality...

I think that whole business of Native Americans being descended from the lost tribe of Israel is pretty much blown away by the genetic evidence.

Of course. Everyone knows it's the Irish that are descended from the lost tribe of Israel.

:)

Surely you don't expect the Mormons to admit their relgion is based on fraud? The new line is now that Lehi and sons were just one family swallowed up in the Meso-American population, so naturally the DNA evidence wouldn't show Middle Eastern lineage. Of course, that completely contradicts the Book of Mormon, which says that the land was empty (2 Nephi 1:8), but there's no limit to the gullibility of the religious.

"Jospeh Smith looked in his hat...dum de dumm dumm dum"

Thank you South Park (Episode 710).

However, as an amateur genealogist, I have to at least give a polite nod to the LDS. They do make my job much easier.

Oh, yeah. I made a few visits to the genealogy libraries in SLC myself. I was impressed.

Although there was that weird introductory video you could watch which explained the reason Mormons were so interested in genealogy...

Twas a time in history when much of such visioning was agoin on. Smith's LDS Church was about the only survivor of these new faiths.

And much of the religious innovation was going on in western New York state in the Burned-
Over District

Millerite adventists, who eventually transformed into Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses

Spritualism and the Fox sisters

Various Utopian communities

Jemima Wilkinson, the Publik Universal Friend

And of course the Great Agnostic, Robert Ingersoll, was born in Dresden, NY about that time (although he mostly grew up elsewhere)

Not to mention social innovation such as the women's rights movement and a strong abolitionist effort

I submitted a post with too many links about the Burned-Over District. I have no confidence that it will ever show up.

It's there. Really, I try to approve all legitimate comments.

When I lived in Utah, the Mormons were affectionately known as the LSD, not the LDS.

Uh, I think that whole business of Native Americans being descended from the lost tribe of Israel is pretty much blown away by the genetic evidence.

No, no. The Nephites and Lamanites aren't supposed to be descended from the 10 Lost Tribes; just from a few handfuls of Hebrews who left Jerusalem before those tribes were lost. Mormon scriptures say the lost tribes will be hidden up "in the north countries" until the Second Coming, when "their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence." "Native Americans are descended from Hebrews" and "the lost Hebrew tribes are hiding up north" are two completely distinct crazy Mormon doctrines.

'Twas a time in history when much of such visioning was agoin on. Smith's LDS Church was about the only survivor of these new faiths.

Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Adventists date from about the same time?

When contradicted by both linguistic and genetic evidence, reality is hard for anyone not totally brainwashed to ignore.

Don't forget archaeological and historical.

I'm a Mormon and an evolutionary biologist. I'm not interested in going into this topic too much, because it's all been said before, and I'm not in the church because of its scientific underpinnings (or out for the lack thereof).

But it is perhaps relevant to note that BYU (the official church university) has a very strong group in evolutionary biology right now - lots of good grants and some very high impact papers are coming out of the Department of Integrative Biology. So Mormons are far from homogenous or unified on some of these issues, and the church has not yet (and probably won't) tried to snuff the good research being done at BYU.

BYU is a weird place. We went to their good museum several times, which included a fine collection of dinosaurs, but was housed in a very cheap building that was little more than a sheet-metal barn. Then, across the street, was this relatively opulent 'natural history' museum that I visited once and left in disgust -- it's basically a collection of trophy mounts donated by a wealthy Mormon benefactor.

I hope there were some collections of substance behind the scenes, but what was presented to the visitor was little more than an ode to the glory of big game hunting.

So, help me out here; If you don't take Joe Smith's goofy-ass stories seriously, what makes Mormonism more appealing then vanilla-flavored Christianity?

There are great collections in the Bean Museum - including the world's largest collection of stone flies (Plecoptera) thanks to Dick Baumann, and an excellent western US-focused herbarium thanks to Stanley Welsh. (The great plant taxonomist Arthur Cronquist actually died while working in this herbarium). When Monte Bean made the donation for the museum, he envisioned a trophy gallery. Much credit goes to the BYU faculty at the time who pushed hard for extensive collection space.

BYU is a weird place in many ways, but there is some good stuff there. They do have a huge dinosaur collection, and I don't know the politics behind the lack of a good format for their display - probably money as usual.

Not to blow you off Christopher, but would you care to rephrase your question more respectfully?

Woops, stoneflies...

So, help me out here; If you don't take Joe Smith's goofy-ass stories seriously, what makes Mormonism more appealing then vanilla-flavored Christianity?

Not speaking for benthos, of course, I'd say that some basic aspects of Mormonism are a big improvement over orthodox Christianity. (Not that I'm a fan.)

For example, as I understand it, you can get out of Hell; people don't go to Hell forever for being nonbelievers, etc. (Perhaps not coincidentally, around the time of Joseph smith, a lot of Christians were finally getting civilized enough to have a serious problem with the Doctrine of Hell.)

Another handy thing about Mormonism is that they have a living Prophet, which lets them do something like amending the constitution with every generation. So, for example, in the 1970's there was a revelation that black people weren't so all-fired inferior after all, as earlier scriptures said, and that black men could become Mormon priests.

Of course having a living prophet who delivers God's own revelations has its downside, too.

There are great collections in the Bean Museum - including the world's largest collection of stone flies (Plecoptera)

Stoneflies are fucking awesome.

Not to blow you off Christopher, but would you care to rephrase your question more respectfully?

But then I might be offended ...

http://www.nps.gov/noca/journey/images/macroinverts/plecoptera.htm

Now that's an insect larva with character -- looks more thoughtful than your average tadpole!!!

http://www.aegaweb.com/secc/nat_gal/insectos/plecoptera/plecopt1.jpg

A righteous insect.

"Not to blow you off Christopher, but would you care to rephrase your question more respectfully?"

Well... I don't really know how. I could say that Smith's story about getting golden plates and magic goggles from an angel, but not being able to keep them, and all that stuff about the Native Americans being descended from the lost tribes is ridiculous and kind of offensive in that it ignores Native history.

It's still kind of the same sentiment, though.

come on, cut 'em some slack. The sequel is NEVER as good as the first one.

It's all just a metaphor for, uh, God's love for his people.

You don't understand. These indigenous religious beliefs are far more sophisticated than you're giving the natives credit for.

Sorry to be a dick, but I get so tired of people trashing my religion. I know its warts as well as anyone but for personal and profound reasons, I'm still there. That should be good enough for you. I've been through this over at DailyKos ad nauseum, so I'm going to stop now.

The science stuff is interesting though, and has led some BYU professors into some pretty silly positions.

What other religion offers you (males of course) the chance to move up through the ranks in the Celestial Kingdon and become God of your very own planet? Makes the Muslim virgin promise seem paltry by comparison.

I'm living behind the Zion Curtain. I'd say the most important characteristic of the LDS religion is how it's very much like a multi-level marketing company. The fact that corporate multi-levels spring up here like mushrooms is a reflection of the culture. There are pyramids in Utah, just not the kind that interest archaeologists.

Benthos, I'm sorry to trash your religion but I'm asking in good faith; I seriously do not understand the appeal. And your DKos diary doesn't help.

All I know about Mormonism is that it was founded by Joseph Smith after he recieved a revelation from an angel. Even though he at one point had physical evidence that would convince anybody but the Angel had to take it back for some reason.

You have to admit it's a pretty incredible story.

As for the Native American stuff, it essentially ignores both science and what Native Americans say about themselves, and it has a very patronising quality. It says that Native historians and religious leaders were gullible fools who essentially forgot about everything important.

Those are the only differences from Protestant or Catholic religion that I'm aware of. And those differences are, well, ridiculous.

So what I'm asking is, what are the non-ridiculous differences from normal Christianity?

Nobody's really answered that.

You know bjn, there are two kinds of non-Mormons behind the "zion curtain": Those that choose to whine and bitch about Mormons whenever they get the chance, and who thus tend to be unhappy a lot of the time, and those that realize that for the most part, these quirky and kind people make good neighbors and have a lot to offer.

I'm guessing you're in the former camp. (And your understanding of Mormon theology, although admirably snarky, is BS.)

Sorry to be a dick, but I get so tired of people trashing my religion.

Then I suggest you become a Taoist. People who live in glass houses shouldn't complain when they come crashing down around them.

I appreciate the attempts to de-escalate Christopher, but when you begin a conversation by saying that someone's beliefs are "ridiculous" and "goofy ass", you've probably sabotaged the chance for a serious and respectful exchange of ideas.

I can see how you feel that way, believe me, but this doesn't seem like the right forum for it, and I've got a piano recital to go to. There is some pretty good stuff on Wikipedia about Mormon doctrine. In brief, it is very optimistic and focuses on the ability of humans to learn and progress. It gives a solid framework for moral behavior based on these principals that translates into happy, productive (if often politcally misguided IMO - though see Harry Reid) people. These are the aspects of it that work well for me.

Just so you don't feel too unfairly singled out, benthos, I think all religions are silly. I don't really see a major difference between LDS and other forms. I'm an equal opportunity ridiculer.

My feeling is, you've seen one magic sky wizard, you've seen them all.

jamb,

Where can I find more information about the FARMS founders leaving the LDS Church? I have not heard of that before.

Not speaking for benthos, of course, I'd say that some basic aspects of Mormonism are a big improvement over orthodox Christianity.

You mean the part where women aren't really people?

For example, as I understand it, you can get out of Hell

Unless you're a woman who hasn't done the magic ceremony.

In brief, it is very optimistic and focuses on the ability of humans to learn and progress.

Only if you accept that women aren't human.

it is very optimistic and focuses on the ability of humans to learn and progress. It gives a solid framework for moral behavior based on these principals that translates into happy, productive (if often politcally misguided IMO - though see Harry Reid) people.

Sounds like Scientology.

I'd also question the "framework for moral behavior" bit—not that I doubt that most Mormons are good moral people, but I suspect it is in spite of the religion. I've read Krakauer. I lived there shortly after the Hofmann murders, which showed that being steeped in Mormon culture sure was no insurance against evil, and could drive some people right into it.

benthos,

My impression was that it was part of Mormon theology that humans could progress to become (something very like) Gods, with their own worlds to be the gods of---and that the God of this universe used to be a human who progressed in that way.

Some of this seems to be borne out by wikipedia in the page on "theosis" linked from the article on "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

By the way, I'm an atheist but I'm not particularly out to ridicule LDS doctrine; I don't find it any more or less far-fetched than, say, the Old Testament---just less familiar.

In particular I don't find the whole progressing-to-be-godlike thing any less credible than the orthodox Christian Doctrine of Hell, or the talking snake in Genesis. It's all mythology to me, and Mormon theology seems progressive in some ways. (And I've lived in SLC and liked my neighbors.)

"You mean the part where women aren't really people?"

Or was it the part about hating gay people?

Maybe the funny underwear is the appeal.

Salt Lake City seems unusually family-oriented which I find appealing. There are lots of inexpensive family activities, and the Parent Teacher Association (PTA) is very active in the schools. I have often wondered what role, if any, the Mormon culture has had on this aspect of Salt Lake City. Any ideas?

"Face it, Rose, [scientists] are the closest thing we have to gods." -Edward Elric, the Fullmetal Alchemist, slightly edited.

Of course, deities are at pretty high standards, 40+ Hit Dice and all. Best we get are a bunch of low-HD experts with hefty, hefty circumstance bonuses to Knowledge, Craft, and Profession checks, thanks to all the research and precise tools out there.

Maybe the funny underwear is the appeal

What discussion of the LDS is complete without asking: "Are the magic underoos itchy?"

Not to mention that the native languages on the American continents aren't related to Hebrew (the switch to Aramaic hadn't been made at the time Nephi supposedly came to the Americas, so Hebrew was still the language they should have been speaking) in any way, shape or form. They're almost exclusively Asian.

Not exactly. No actual accepted, provable connections have been discovered between any Native American languages and any languages of the Old World. But the larger point is true -- ain't no Indian tribes speaking Hebrew or Aramaic.

Okay. Here's your multiplanet theology:

" Joseph Smith explained, "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305). "The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over the world, and the world will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 48).

I admit to not being intimate on the details of the planet Kolob (residence of this planet's Heavenly Father) but the whole business of aspiring to godhood and getting a planet in the galactic suburbs isn't news to anyone who was born in these here parts.

There are more than two kinds of Mormons. I enjoy interacting with most (and I have close Mormon friends). I've found many to be kind, sincere and intelligent. A few even have a sophisticated sense of humor. The flipside patriarchal bullies are, unfortunately, very apparent this time of year (our legislature is in session and the patriarchal dickwads are flexing their authority). And there are dickwad thin-skinned Mormons who want to stereotype non-LSD folks like me as whiners if we occasionally poke fun at the local culture. I may occasionally bitch (as is my right) but I love the geography, I have Utah DNA that predates the Mormon migration or even the Spanish conquest, and I manage to be reasonably happy livin' in Zion.

what makes Mormonism more appealing then vanilla-flavored Christianity?

It's useful to read Mark Twain. In one of his essays, he notes that sex is about the best thing there is for people on Earth, but that it is missing from the heaven of Protestants. Mormons have that one figured out. Sex in the afterlife. For those who think about an afterlife, that might be a factor.

More pragmatically, Mormonism offers a serious, functioning social structure that is, in most cases, very supporting to young families. Pastoral care is a high duty of every member of the ward; a serious injury or illness in one's family brings out serious help from the church members, including meals for weeks, somebody who magically shows up to mow the lawn, visits at critical times of need, and financial assistance. Mormons often live the gospels with a vengeance, those parts that include service to others. They live out the better parts of the Christian faith.

Mormons often live the gospels with a vengeance, those parts that include service to others. They live out the better parts of the Christian faith.

I have to admit, even tho I find Mormonism quite, well, silly (and vanilla xtianity scarcely better), on a personal level, all the Mormons I've ever known have been very nice, unpretentious people. For all the stories one hears about their theology and politics, whenever I've dealt with them one on one, they're often much more easy going and easier to get along with than similarly devout Protestants or Catholics (let alone really insufferable people like Jehovah's Witnesses). I wouldn't claim to know why this is, but I've always thought that one possibility is that something about being part of a minority religion to which many other christians are quite hostile makes them somewhat more humble. Evangelical Protestants and Catholics are convinced that religion is supposed to be ruling the world, so they can be quite overbearing.

Not that this means I have any desire to become a Mormon, but credit where credit's due...

these quirky and kind people make good neighbors and have a lot to offer

I call bullshit on this one. I've had friends and relatives who have had Mormon neighbors. They wouldn't allow their children to play with non-mormon children and wouldn't even say hello to their non-mormon neighbors.

Different people. I've known some wonderful, kind, generous, open-hearted Mormons. But also some of the most casually bigoted people I've known were also Mormon. That Utah monoculture doesn't help foster an appreciation of diversity.

benthos, your religion is bullshit, like all religions (but yours is particularly ridiculous because the artless lies that form its foundation were told in recent times rather than the distant past and are therefore espeially transparent). If you don't like being told that, perhaps should reconsider your own commitment to massive cognitive dissonance rather than blaming the messenger. Politeness in such matters merely allows harmful frauds to continue being perpetrated on humanity, and pleading "personal and profound" reasons for being willing to swallow obvious bullshit does nothing to make your position more respectable.

Well, I've never spent time in Utah, so all the Mormons I've dealt with have been in urban areas where they're minorities, where segregating themselves wasn't an option. People of whatever religion tend to act a bit different in places where they're calling all the shots.

I also have Mormon co-workers that I've gotten to know quite well. It's very obvious, like Fundamentalist Christians, that they believe they are elitist and commonly look down their noses at us "common folk". I've personally come to the conclusion they have low self esteem, and need mental crutches to feel better about themselves. No amount of logic, fact or reason will get them to critically evaluate their positions, because removal of their "moral superior position" puts them with the rest of mere mortals. Anyone wanting to examine how ludicrous this belief is should check out;
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.html

I just wound up recalling something disturbing. One of my chemistry classmates was an ex-Mormon (or at least an ex-member of one of the "off-brand" Christianities). She said got out of it when they asked her to sacrifice her dog. I don't know whether or not my anecdote (and remember: We generally don't draw conclusions from anecdotal evidence) is representative, but it's still creepy.

She could not have been an ex-Mormon, BronzeDog. The LDS church is weird but not that weird.

So scientific discoveries in biology are causing some devout religious people to either question the literal truth of their holy book or engage in strained apologetic reinterpretations.

Gee, what does this remind me of?

She could not have been an ex-Mormon, BronzeDog. The LDS church is weird but not that weird.

Yeah, the thought had occurred to me multiple times. I might be thinking of some other weird church. Another possibility is that she meant a non-blood sacrifice, like giving him up to the animal shelter or something. It's just a disturbing, and probably distorted memory of mine.

In some ways Mormons strike me as a more morally self-controlled and less neurotic bunch than "mainstream" Christians, and I find it particularly rich when Evangelicals etc. laugh at Mormon beliefs as if they believe in anything less dip-shitted with what can already be found in the Old Testament and New Testament. You think the Book of Mormon has problems with modern genetics, how about Jacob and his magic flocks humping next to a striped rod!

It's really too bad how people needlessly make strange fairy tales the basis for their community and morality. The latter is particularly ironic since religion, like all lies, requires a self-corrupting and ever more baroque web of lies and disingenuousness to maintain the act.

I admit to not being intimate on the details of the planet Kolob

Kolob - Kobol
| | ^ ^
\-|-----|-/
\-----/

Hmm... /me starts looking around for Cylons.

Many years ago, I believed in a mythical being with great powers. A being who watched my every action and deed; a being who knew my innermost thoughts. If I was good, I would eventually be rewarded; if I was bad I would be punished.

And then, when I was six years old, I found out that Santa Claus did not really exist. I was four years old when I realized that God did not really exist, but once a year there was physical evidence for the existence of Santa so I believed in him a little longer.

I doubt that, even straight from the womb, I could ever have been insufficiently aware of facts or logic to believe in Moronism.

Oh, but to be fair, Mark Twain actually visited Brigham Young in Salt Lake City, on his way to Nevada. Twain got a copy of the Book of Mormon, and read some of it. I used to get great mileage out of his concise criticism among Mormon friends: Twain said the book is "chloroform in print."

One thing that keeps Mormons grounded in reality is their dedication to education. "Knowledge is the glory of God," is one of their favorite aphorisms (from Brigham Young?). Their dedication to science, and to letting the chips fall where they may, is often a question of honor. God works in mysterious ways, some Mormon scientists say -- if the science comes out different from what the scriptures say, well, that's quite mysterious, isn't it? James Fletcher didn't seem to do much damage to science from his religious views when he headed NASA, either time. In science, I think, Mormonism tends to be a supportive philosophy rather than an opposing one.

Mormon doctrine is like all doctrine, a bit unworkable. Look at th worings of the community instead. Mormons work well together.

Where did it come from? Upstate New york, the story is a rip off from Solomon Spaulding who owned a large farm on the west bank of Onondage Creek on Syracuse, NY's far south side. Joseph smith worked for Spaulding just before his visions. Spaulding insisted until the day he died that smith had lifted his manuscript for a book about a lost civilization that was inspired by the indian burial mounds at Connaught, Ohio. Spaulding is remembered as a good man of property and a decent fellow all around.

so the book? It's a trinket really. Faith is in the heart, not in a book.

But Mormonism falls down because of the need for lockstep conformity and some of the most egregious excesses within the faith aside from internal financial corruption issues which dog the church is heavy handed enforcement of conformity beyond good reason. I suspect this is where the ID hullabaloo is coming from, the more extreme of the "conformity police." This is Mormonism's answer to "The committee for the elimination of vice and promotion of virtue," in Wahabi and Talibanic countries.

Can Mormonism be overcome? Yes, and quite easily too. All you need is faith, and suddenly "middlemen" are no longer needed.

Back when I was in high school, I had a friend whose family had converted to mormonism. I remember his mother telling me with a straight face, that neither the blacks nor the whites in the church were happy with segregation, and how happy they were when god changed its mind and told the prophet that it wasn't necessary to keep blacks and whites apart anymore (sometime in the 1960's, apparently)

I remember being boggled at the idea of an adult believing such a stupid, obvious lie.

-jcr

I am biracial (black/white). As I understand it, my parents marriage (and my own to a white person) would both have been condemned by the LDS church. I also understand that until I was 22, had I been brainless enough to convert to Mormonism I would have been treated as a second- or third-class member of the church. Now, what is benthos so concerned about?

As a nominal Mormon, I cheefully accept the many legitimate criticisms directed toward my church, so long as one uses the same standard for judging other religions that demand belief in mythical figures and ancient texts. The Bible is every bit as apocryphal as the Book of the Mormon, aside from its weaving a few nuggets of actual history among the stories of universal flood, God-ordered infaticide, virgin birth, and talking donkeys. Yet Bible belief is in great vogue in the U.S. these days.

Sure, Mormons function on a willing suspension of disbelief with respect to the scientific basis of scripture, exactly as literal believers in the Bible, Torah, and Quran do. A Mormon's uncritical acceptance of the Book of Mormon as history ranks no higher in silliness than the Christian who defends the literal truth of the book of Genesis or tries to explain away the Bible's numerous internal inconsistencies.

All religious people base their faith on personal experiences and beliefs (often instilled in them by devout parents) then use scripture to reinforce what they already accept as truth. Hence, the Bible can be used to defend slavery and war as easily as tolerance and peace. The historicity of the text ranks for the True Believer somewhere between secondary and irrelevant. To single out Mormons for criticism for defending the validity of their scriptures is like criticizing them for supporting the war in Iraq. Sure, the charge is valid, but it can be applied to far more than the denizens of Utah.

"To single out Mormons for criticism...."
=====================================

Haven't spent much time here have you? This is a great place for criticism of any and all religions.

It's about time we got around to the Mormons.

Guess I was a bit too touchy there. Old habit.

Not to go completely off topic, but has anyone read Conciousness as Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?

If I've got to have a religious belief, I'll go for the greek gods, thank you very much. At least they had great stories. And the view is superb.