My contempt is bipartisan

I've just got a *little* annoyed on Insolence's blog. Here's the text below - because I think it needs saying more widely.

Rule 1: You do not fuck with vaccination (or other public health) programs*.

Rule 2: If a vaccine is shown to be safe after it stops being used, then every single person who catches that disease after the vaccine as been stopped should sue those who stopped the vaccine - whether they would have been vaccinated or not (or even if they actually have been vaccinated). The effect of providing mass-immunity from a disease to the whole population is just that great.

Rule 3: Not having yourself or your kids vaccinated is free-loading and thieving from the general immunity of the population. This should be pointed out repeatedly. And cases such as the British MMR case (which probably gave Kennedy his ideas) leading to the return of Measles and Mumps in the general population should be pointed out.

Currently there are only three ways of getting me angry in under 10 seconds flat. Fucking with public health (in particular vaccinations and contraception), Creationism, and lying about your evidence...

* Yes, you are allowed to fuck with contraception. That is the point of it after all...

Here, here! I hear most of what you hear. But then that "F" word creeps into the discussion and it puzzles me that it seems to always eminate from the "LEFT" gene ... any geneticist out there that could verify this?

Stick with TPM Café. It's not as prone to the airy-fairyness as is HuffPost. Or just hang around ThinkProgress and FireDogLake -- much more fun, and better writing.

Though truly, HuffPost isn't as utterly worthless as is ABC's TheNote, which exists mainly so that the Beltway employees of the corporate media can post remarks justifying their pimping for all that is stupid.

Here, here! I hear most of what you hear. But then that "F" word creeps into the discussion and it puzzles me that it seems to always eminate from the "LEFT" gene ... any geneticist out there that could verify this?

Geneticist?

And the left gets more annoyed by trying to break public health than the right because the left is more interested in the whole of society and the most vulnerable of society.

(Tbh, any true conservative should be mad keen on keeping existing public health measures).

I posted a link back to here at Huffpost. Yeah I read it where else can I get such good humor? I still am concerned mostly by the politisation of science. WTF can the politicos be thinking? We have to be united on so many fronts anymore just to stop the Ridiculous nonsense. Not to mention any attempt at getting good science into the hands of people so that they and we can use it EFFECTIVELY.
Bush, Kennedy whats the difference? A lie and misrepresentation is still a lie and misrepresentation. And the liars are really getting to me.

"Currently there are only three ways of getting me angry in under 10 seconds flat. Fucking with public health (in particular vaccinations and contraception), Creationism, and lying about your evidence..."

Jeez. We don't want to turn into the religious right here where all we care about is a half-dozen issues. Personally I don't find this all that interesting, its just one of those borderline cases where the evidence apparently isn't clear enough and people just have to draw their own (politically motivated) conclusions, thats always going to happen. Hell at least the left cares about public health, even if they get it wrong.

There are a lot of issues more important than vaccinations, contraception, creationism, and lying about evidence. Education for one. What about the explosion in University of Pheonix style McUniversities thats going to result from the removal of the requirement to have at least half of all classes held on campus instead of online to recieve federal funding?

Sorry, just in case I wasn't clear, there are a lot of issues that concern me (education being a good example)*. Getting me angry in under 10 seconds flat is quite an achievement, however. It takes a combination of ignorance or mendacity and dangerousness to the rest of humanity to actually anger (as opposed to exasperate) me.

the removal of the requirement to have at least half of all classes held on campus instead of online to recieve federal funding?

*boggle*

Which genius thought that one up? It's reached the point where at least once a week I see something that makes me glad I'm not in America. (And for the record, we have a very good distance learning university - http://www.open.ac.uk - but you really need a specialist institution to pull that one off).

* Actually I've got a simple system when it comes to my views on education policy at school level - I'll argue it to the hilt with my girlfriend then ultimately take up her views as she's both a full time teacher and currently studying part time for a masters in teaching - which gives her professional expertise well beyond mine.

I can't speak to this specific issue but in general Robert F. Kennedy Jr. strikes me as an intelligent and well-meaning person. Huffington is also a needed voice.

I consider myself someone who tries to put the truth before partisanship, so am as willing as y'all to be critical of both Left and Right. Yet sometimes I feel like we are so ready to poo-poo EVERYONE -- like there are no journalists or politicians who are intelligent and well-meaning people or that being off on one issue implies they have no credibility on any issue.

I'm all for rigorous debate but the blogsphere seems a little overly vicious at times to me.

OK, someone, smack me down!

Considering that Kennedy did some pretty vicious and apparently deliberate quote mining in his past, I'd think that would call his honesty and objectivity into question. When he does make a valid argument, it'll still be a valid argument, but his past behavior should get people checking his sources... Which kind of eliminates Kennedy's purpose as a journalist.

Phil Plait (the Bad Astronomer) has started posting to the Huffington Post in order to get some science into a blog poisoned by flakery. I salute his efforts.

Look, people, given the horrible public-health consequences that would ensue from massive under-vaccination for serious childhood diseases, vaccination is a VERY VERY IMPORTANT issue and spreading lies about it is both harmful and contemptible. This is NOT a small deal. It is NOT being blown out of proportion.

Either
http://www.safeminds.org/research/docs/Hviid_et_alJAMA-SafeMindsAnalysi…

is a lie, or else the Denmark autism data is not very good and one should not draw conclusions from it.

Here's a story that will warm PZ's heart today:

We must stand up to the creeping tyranny of the group veto
Timothy Garton Ash
Thursday March 2, 2006
The Guardian

It was a bright cold day in February, and the digital watches were blinking thirteen. Across the street from the concrete skeleton of a large building, a noisy crowd was repetitively chanting "Stop the Oxford animal lab! Stop the Oxford animal lab!" Just around the corner, at least 500 demonstrators, among them many Oxford university students, gave their vocal reply: "Stand up for science! Stand up for research! No more threats, no more fear! Animal research, wanted here!" A student wordsmith had obviously worked hard on the chants, which continued with "Pro-science! Pro-gress! Pro-test!". Then there crackled through an old-fashioned electronic megaphone the voices of Oxford academics, a doctoral student and, most movingly, the mother of a disabled child. They explained how progress in medicine depends on carefully regulated animal tests and called on us to resist the "animal rights terrorists". A large banner held aloft in the middle of the crowd proclaimed "Vegetarians against the ALF". ALF stands for Animal Liberation Front, the extremist animal rights network which has attempted (sometimes violently, sometimes successfully) to intimidate universities into not doing research on animals.

Standing at the corner of Mansfield Road, I was proud of the demonstrators who were reminding my university what, at best, it is still about: the pursuit of truth and the defence of reason. Protests against student loans or higher rents - these we expect. But here were students turning out on a chilly Saturday morning to stand up for science. ...

I was starting to think I was the only one who doesn't like HuffPo. I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

Arun, frankly who cares about that link? There has NEVER been a competently done study that DOES link thimerosal with autism; not one of the studies that claimed to do so has stood up to scrutiny outside the self-reinforcing kingdom of the cranks. This would be astonishing if there really were such a link, given the powerful publication bias in favor of positive results. Nor is there a hint of a plausible mechanism. This story is driven by pure crankery, not science. And to repeat, its irresponsible propagation is a clear and present danger to public health. It is also a cynical exploitiation of the heartbreak of parents of autisitc kids. Feh.

People who embarrass the left bother me even more than people on the right. PETA is the most vile offender.

I am a parent of a 16 month old child. I am obviously FOR vaccination, and know that it has stopped polio, smallpox, etc.

I will, however, go to jail before I allow thimerisol to be injected into my daughter. If the drug companies are "willingly" taking it off the market, and offering thimerisol-free versions, and Bill Frist is slipping midnight-legislation into bills to give drug companies a pass in getting sued over it, I am not going to risk my daughter's health.

Your risk-assessment skills need a lot of work, jdobbin.

Yeah. Especially since there seems to be zero evidence of any danger in thimerosal.

Either
[snip link, as to not risking getting considered spam]

is a lie, or else the Denmark autism data is not very good and one should not draw conclusions from it.

Is that the criticism where they claimed that the researches were biased because they were liable for a liability suit if they found such a link? If so, then it's at least partially a lie - that is not the case at all. I have explained why that is not the case here

For jdobbin:
Information on thimerosal content in vaccines.

OK, I actually find the hurricane-junkyard quote quite hilarious. Not because I think he has a point, but it just came off as funny, when you conjure that mental image.

I dunno. Made me laugh. Anyhow, on with real science!

Jeez. We don't want to turn into the religious right here where all we care about is a half-dozen issues. Personally I don't find this all that interesting, its just one of those borderline cases where the evidence apparently isn't clear enough and people just have to draw their own (politically motivated) conclusions, thats always going to happen.

Wrong. It is not a "borderline" case. The evidence is quite clear and becoming clearer every year. Thimerosal was removed from U.S. vaccines (except for the flu vaccine) in January 2003. There has not been a drop in the number of new cases of autism yet. If the Danish and Canadian experience are any guide, there won't be. Yes, at three years, it's a little too early to conclude anything yet, but if, as Generation Rescue claims, "autism=mercury poisoning," the effect would not be subtle. It would be dramatic. There's definitely no dramatic effect yet.

I see someone else already noted I'm writing for HuffPo now. I agree that Chopra is truly awful ("Quantum healing"? PUHLEEZE!), but they also need to have more science stuff there. I do think there is a lot of critical thinking on HuffPo, it just doesn't extend to everyone. Maybe I can help. Remember, Michael Shermer and Chris Mooney have both written some entries for HuffPo.

Hopefully, Phil (Can I call you "Phil?") your articles will be help to dilute the woo to homeopathic proportions.

I'm glad you're doing your part to raise the quality of the articles there, but I'm afraid that seeing that quack Chopra popping up all the time just means I can't bear to read it.

Thanks, P.Z. I get tired of explaining to well-meaning friends that RFK Jr. is just plain off his rocker on this one. I'll just forward them to Respectful Insolence.

Now, can you give us something to show the 12 bazillion people who think Airborne cold rememdy actually *does* something, other than make a pleasant fizz?

Look, people, given the horrible public-health consequences that would ensue from massive under-vaccination for serious childhood diseases, vaccination is a VERY VERY IMPORTANT issue and spreading lies about it is both harmful and contemptible. This is NOT a small deal. It is NOT being blown out of proportion.

Indeed - which is why I get so annoyed about this subject.

In most cases, not everyone who has been vaccinated is completely immune to the disease (although most people will probably only be vulnerable if their immune system is otherwise depressed). What vaccination does is to make the population as a whole more resistant - which means that if any person has the misfortune to catch the disease, they are less likely to pass it on - and if the average number of people any victim passes a disease onto exceeds one, you have real problems. When such an epidemic breaks out, even the vaccinated aren't necessarily safe (never mind the strain placed on medical services...)

In short, anyone playing games with vaccinations is not only endangering those who would otherwise be vaccinated, they are endangering you and me.

Orac writes:

Thimerosal was removed from U.S. vaccines (except for the flu vaccine) in January 2003.

I'm curious - why then does this article say Iowa is the first state to ban thimerosal from vaccines - May 14, 2004?

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/hawkeyes_eye_mercury/

Is it more a means of making litigation possible, than a real cut-off in thimerosal? Or is this directed at flu vaccines?

It seems more like a gradual phase out - e.g., this Dec 2005 story:
http://www.qctimes.net/articles/2005/12/06/news/local/doc43952975174bc2…

Since the Iowa ban went in place during January, California has followed suit and more than 30 other states have similar bans under consideration. Illinois is among them.

In August, Gov. Rod Blagojevich approved the Mercury-Free Vaccine Act. As of next year, the percentage of mercury used in vaccines will be limited. As of 2008, no Illinois resident will be vaccinated with a product containing mercury

I fear that RFK, Jr has some serious issues to deal with given his close association with PZ Knight, the Ramtha channeler. Not the kind of company a reality-based person would cultivate...

JZ Knight. Let's not confuse those initials.

And yuck...Kennedy pandering to Ramtha?

Uranium, mercury, lead - elements of taboo for greens and laymen. No matter if normal farm field contains uranium 10 pounds / acre / feet or one fish more mercury than one vaccine. Taboo and populism comes in and sense of reality runs out.

In our country there are protests and debates here about uranium mines but hardly no-one previously protested gold mines.
What if vaccines would contain gold or platinum instead of mercury? Then every laymen would shout and beg "Me too ! We too !" ?

Here's a very very good reason for a drug company to take thiomersal out of vaccines:

Because people are afraid of it, and offering a non-thiomersal version means that company has a bit better chance of getting it sold. Sure, their profits on vaccination aren't so good, but I expect that's mostly R&D (and proving to the FDA that it's safe) - and that the effect of removing thiomersal is primarily to drastically decrease the shelf-life of the vaccine, given that the entire reason it's in there is to try to keep it sterile.

I'm curious - why then does this article say Iowa is the first state to ban thimerosal from vaccines - May 14, 2004?

As amazing as it sounds, it doesn't always take a law for such things to happen. Thimerosal was removed by the drug companies in everything but the flu vaccinations. There is also a thimerosal free version of that though, which people can choose.

Thimerosal is a persavation component, that makes vaccinations cheaper, since they can be produced in bulk, and stored for a longer period. It's not really that big an issue in the Western world, but for 3rd world countries, that price difference is very important.

"persavation" -> "preservation"
Sholdn't write when I have just gotten up in the morning.

You maybe were trying to write "perseveration", which seems to be afflicting the thimerosal-phobes.

I hadn't heard of this Deepak Chopra character. I'd love to see his credentials. A high number of Indian physicians practicing in the US were subpar students in India. Unlike the US, med school there is not a professional degree. It is an undergraduate degree like biology. And unless one graduates at the very top of his/her class, the economic outlook is not good. Doctors average well less than $500 a month in India. Many Indian doctors in the US have what are known as 'second-class' degrees, meaning they performed very marginally. But as long as they can cram well enough to pass the USMLE, they can obtain a residency in a US hospital.

Because people are afraid of it

"People" are afraid of a lot of things, most of them without a good reason. If we keep pandering to the latest boogeyman to mince down the pike, then eventually we won't have anything left.

As a physician who immunizes children and the father of a 2-year-old, I can tell you that it is very very easy to complete the full immunization schedule without ever getting a dose of thimerosal. No child in my practice has receive a thimerosal containing vaccine since 2002, and my child has not receive a thimerosal containing shot despite being fully up to date.

I don't do this for patient safety - thimerosal has never been shown to be a problem. I do it to protect myself from liability and also for a sense of prudence. Why use thimerosal when it is not necessary?

Incidentally, when I was growing up in the 70s kids got at least as much and probably more thimerosal than they do now (3 DTP shot before age 1) - and we never heard the word "autism".

A high number of Indian physicians practicing in the US were subpar students in India. Unlike the US, med school there is not a professional degree. It is an undergraduate degree like biology. And unless one graduates at the very top of his/her class, the economic outlook is not good. Doctors average well less than $500 a month in India. Many Indian doctors in the US have what are known as 'second-class' degrees, meaning they performed very marginally. But as long as they can cram well enough to pass the USMLE, they can obtain a residency in a US hospital.

The basic degree is a 5-year MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) course. Entrance to the medical degree in India is extremely competitive. Doctors' salaries are low only in comparison to the recently booming IT salaries. As to which ones come to the US, perhaps Prince Roy might explain why the best ones stay back, especially at the salaries he is deriding.

The problem with saying that thimerosal should be taken out of all vaccines ASAP, and that it's a "nobrainer" to take it out, is that people are exaggerating the danger of thimerosal and imagining that what might take it's place would be risk free.

This is a big deal when you realize that people should have a double standard for vaccines that kids get here and the ones that kids get overseas.

What do you say to a mom in a third world country?

"This stuff is safe, it's been injected into a kajillion kids in the US, Canada and Europe and no one has ever found that it has harmed any child.

But some moms in the US freaked out because of what some
greedy personal injury lawyers
and ill-informed, conceited and entitled wealthy parents were saying,
so they took it out of our American vaccines, but it's still safe for your baby."

There was already a rumor going around in the Muslim world that the polio vaccine caused AIDS or sterility or something, so a bunch of Muslim kids in Africa didn't get vaccinated for polio and got it, then it spread to Malaysia, as I remember. That was just last year.

Just what you need to frighten people oversease into not vaccinating. All of this because Sally (who calls herself Sallie to hide her real identity) Bernard decided to write a nonsense paper called, "Autism, a novel form of mercury poisoning?" and paid to have it published in a nonsense magazine, "Medical Hypotheses" that happens to be indexed in pubmed. gah!!! The paper is trash, the magazine is a rag, the idea is pathetic, but because Sally and her friends had money and were ashamed to think that it was their genes that made their kids autistic, they pushed this into the media. Sally is a billionare. That's with a "b".

This is how the autism empidemic and mercury garbage got started. Sally is one of the founders of "SAFE MINDS" mentioned (linke to) above and she's the president of "Cure Autism Now" which presents itself as a fairly rational group funding research, but at the heart of it are more entitled wealthy parents. Same for the UCD MIND institute. I'm a UCD student, I know what they are about.

People never needed to fear the amount of thimerosal that was in vaccines not even for premature babies. There was no research on thimerosal safety at this level because it had been grandfathered in. We know know, that the use of thimerosal caused no harm to public health. There were no increases in neurological disorders during the 1990's. Contrary to what people say about autism. Where's the increase in epilepsy and cerebral palsy and MR? There was no increase.

I'm not afraid of thimerosal. I got my flu shots the last 2 years and didn't ask what was in it. I assumed that it could have thimerosal in it. Big stinking deal.

Feel free to read the neurodiversity weblog and
autismdiva.blogspot.com
and ballastexistenz.blogspot.com
for more information on what autism really is.

Correction:
This is a big deal when you realize that people should NOT have a double standard for vaccines that kids get here and the ones that kids get overseas.

Correction:
This is a big deal when you realize that people should NOT have a double standard for vaccines that kids get here and the ones that kids get overseas.

Arun:

your point is largely moot: the best doctors stay back in India b/c those are the ones who get good, prestigious jobs in the big hospital chains (Apollo, etc); they make very good salaries, and they provide some of the finest care in the world. They are not making 8-10K rupees a month like the second-class degree holders I am referring to. It's largely the latter that attempt to go to the US, because they cannot make good livings here. I can't recall ever seeing a strong first-class degree holder attempt to get a visa to take the USMLE exam.

"Entrance to the medical degree in India is extremely competitive"

a bit disingenuous: sure entrance is competitive, but only in the sense that getting into any university in India is 'competitive'. Getting into a decent engineering program is even more competitive, because those are where the best and brightest apply.

America should worry that India's second rate doctors, who could not make it in India, are successful in the US. After all, patients can vote with their feet.

The admission to the decent medical schools is as competitive as the admission to the decent engineering schools, and is rather different from getting into university in general. E.g, for 36 open seats for MBBS in the All India Institute of Medical sciences, "the institute received almost 37,761 applications in 1999, 45,877 applications in year 2000 and over 52,898 applications in 2001,"

MrKat lists three favorite Green bugaboo elements, which gives me an excuse for a little thread diversion:

Is there any scientific case for a significant danger from depleted uranium?

Let's spare the jokes, since we all know of the extreme health hazards from having a piece of it cross paths at high speed with a tank you're riding in.

Also, it's a heavy metal, so it must be toxic.

I have always assumed the rest of the panic was BS about a nuclide that's a million times less radioactive than 226-radium, and some of the statistics cited to prove the damage it has done merely prove themselves to be nonsense.

But I don't want to be hasty about this, and sometimes nonsense is cited in support of things that aren't nonsense. So, where is there something written about this by someone who knows and cares about the facts? And btw, how bad is the chemical toxicity? Is it comparable to lead? Mercury? Thallium? Etc.?