Christian pigs at the trough…with Hovind's snout up front

Well this sets a nice precident. Since SCOTUS has declared Atheism a religion, then we can set up a "theme park" that skew religious mythology and not pay taxes! Hooray!

If you doubt that for-profit religious theme parks deserve tax exemption, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS?

What the hell is WITH Florida?

Why does it attract charlatans and fools so? Disney and ilk, and cities like Naples, do stand as a glaring counterpoint by their success...but doesn't it seem to be the Kingdom of Questionable and Failed Counties?

What I mean by that is, everyone seems to move to Florida to try to carve out their own little dubious fiefdom. Hovind has his dino park. Some other nut whom the bill was intended for apparently has his. Ave Maria University is setting up shop there. How many pseudoscience crackpots/businesses have their factories/mailing addresses there (seems a lot to me)? And how many real-estate and development scams and near-scams have occurred there?

I know there's more to Florida than this, but when I think of the place, I think of run-down half-completed 50s-era residential developments carved out of swampland and built on broken promises, giant fiberglass alligators (also run-down) doubling as orange juice stands, and crappy, third-rate creationist theme parks that would stink no matter what the theme. With a government that seems to facilitate the phenomenon.

As suggested, I've BEEN to Naples, so please Floridians don't hate me or think I'm painting the entire state this way. Just seems to me it attracts a strange breed of humanity more than other states...as long as I'm stereotyping, in a sort of "AntiCalifornia" sense.

As suggested, I've BEEN to Naples, so please Floridians don't hate me or think I'm painting the entire state this way. Just seems to me it attracts a strange breed of humanity more than other states...as long as I'm stereotyping, in a sort of "AntiCalifornia" sense.

I'm not from either Florida or California and I've always thought there was a strong resemblance between the two states -- California is full of loonies as well -- Scientiologists, infinite bogus New Age Cults involving crystals, body builder governors (hey, didn't Minnesota do that first?), etc.

"I like Florida. Everything is in the eighties. The temperatures, the ages, and the IQs."

- George Carlin

Careful PZ... Steven Waldman may read this and accuse you of being part of the secular left that's in total control of the Democratic party and is alienating so many religious folks by being so rabidly anti-religious. Just go over at Slate for his latest attack: http://www.slate.com/id/2139365/nav/tap2/.

a bill that would grant theme parks "used to exhibit, illustrate, and interpret biblical manuscripts ... "
...
Two legal scholars said the bill probably could pass constitutional muster, despite its appearance of giving Legislative preference to the Bible and Christianity, as opposed to other religions.

Hey, ho, they're in the clear! You see, it doesn't say "The Bible", it says "biblical manuscripts". See the difference? This has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

That Waldman article is on my hit list. Maybe later today...

Well, if atheism is a religion, and religious theme parks get to be tax-exempt, and given that atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods, therefore Disneyworld, which does not mention God, is atheistic and eligible for tax-exempt status. Any Disney law-talking guys want to give me a little kickback for this legal angle, I'm accepting.

Theme part nation
domination
puts out lies for
syndication.
Acclimation
to thought plantation--
all slaves happy to
sing salvation.
Celebration, no
indignation
that ice melts at the
arctic station.

And the legal argument against this is... where? All I see is a bunch of Christian-bashing bigots condemning it simply because they hate all things Christian.

I live right next to this theme park, "The Holy Land." I don't recall ever seeing a car in their parking lot. As far as I know, most of the profits go to either to Christian charities or charities that aim at converting non-Christians.
I recoment this online tour of the place: http://www.redtongue.com/holyland1.html
Great quote by the way, Monimonika.

And the legal argument against this is... where? All I see is a bunch of Christian-bashing bigots condemning it simply because they hate all things Christian.

For the former: I don't think churches should be tax-exempt. It strikes me as a violation of the First Amendment.

For the latter, stop taking recreational hallucinogens.

And the legal argument against this is... where?

That would be in the original article, where PZ gives this quote:

"Two legal scholars said the bill probably could pass constitutional muster, despite its appearance of giving Legislative preference to the Bible and Christianity, as opposed to other religions."

...and follows it with:

"Appearance?"

Those of us whose reading comprehension has reached the level required to comprehend simple, obvious implications understand this to mean that, in PZ's opinion, the bill does give legislative preference to the Bible and Christianity, as opposed to other religions.

For the former: I don't think churches should be tax-exempt. It strikes me as a violation of the First Amendment.

please don't feed the troll

That Waldman article is on my hit list. Maybe later today...

I e-mailed Waldman. Here's the text:
____________________________________

There we go again... Yet another attack on secular liberals, where you again go on and on and on about how the Left's hostility to religion is keeping away the religious.

Now, you've been asked many, many times before to name names: Who are these dastardly secular liberals who mock the pious and thereby turn off oodles of potential voters? What are their organizations? How are they so very influential? Where are their mission statements, their press releases? You have never answered.

I won't ask you the same question again. Instead, I'm wondering how you can avoid feeling embarrassed, essentially writing the same piece over and over in different online magazines, while never addressing the basic flaw in your argument: You have no evidence of any secular liberals whose unrestrained disdain for religion has turned off anyone (no, Dawkins, Dennett, PZ Myers, and a few other academics and bloggers with hardly any connection to politics or influence over the Democrats, do not count; no, quoting Michael Lerner repeating your premise, but providing no evidence either, but with different words, doesn't count either; and no, being against theocracy does not make one hostile to religion, only to religious authoritarianism).

There's no doubt that the religious right is what passes for the face of religion in this country. That's not the fault of secular liberals. Indeed, it's you fault. It's the religious left that has allowed the religious right to reign supreme. You idiotically attack fellow liberals who are at worse indifferent to religion, instead of taking on the religious right directly -- and by not challenging the media and the politicians who treat the religious right as the country's official religious authority.

By attacking secular liberals who merely want everybody to be judged by the content of their character, regardless of how pious they claim to be, you are providing aid and comfort to the religious right and the forces of religious and political authoritarianism that are behind it.

Bravo Steve! You managed to join forces with Tom DeLay, since apparently you have the same enemy, the vast anti-Christian conspiracy led by secular liberals. I am surprised you were not a featured speaker on his recent "War on Christians" conference.

____________________________________

I haven't heard back.

I'm not a church person so I have no idea what the rules are for church fundraisers. Do church fundraising events have to pay applicable taxes? Because this could fall under the category of that and I don't know what the legal rules surrounding those are.

As suggested, I've BEEN to Naples, so please Floridians don't hate me or think I'm painting the entire state this way. Just seems to me it attracts a strange breed of humanity more than other states...as long as I'm stereotyping, in a sort of "AntiCalifornia" sense.

I've lived here in the Sunshine State since 1984, more or less by my own free will, and I can tell you one thing: it has for quite some time been one of the weirdest states in the country. The rest of you people only just started waking up to that fact in 2000, but it's been a Bizarro-world down here for a lot longer than that.

It does, however, have its good points that make living here tolerable, even outright enjoyable. These are often not immediately obvious to visitors. So no, no offense taken.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only thing in the Christian bible that even remotely hints at dinosaurs is the line, "there were giants, in those days". If that line were to be taken literally, the odds are that it was talking about giant people. I guess believing that it was talking about dinosaurs is easier to swallow, since no giant human skeletons have been found.

People need to stop manipulating the facts in order to fit their beliefs. Doing so does a tremendous disservice to society. It's a fact that dinosaurs and humans did NOT live together, 6,000 years ago. People need to recognize that the bible is just an old book, which is filled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. It's been interpreted and edited countless times and is not an historical document, just a book that's filled with fanciful stories.

John Badger:

No no no! That was a PRO WRESTLER in MN. Get your facts straight before you start stereotyping all large, feather-boa-wearing men as bodybuilders. BAH!

Some churches can reasonably claim to be charitable organizations, and I think there's a legitimate argument for some tax exemptions for charitable organizations. (They should still have to pay employer payroll taxes, property taxes, etc., but exempting them from corporate income tax may be reasonable.)

However, they should still have to prove their bona fide charitable status the same as the United Way, March of Dimes or any other charitable organization. The mere presence of a cross should not confer tax immunity, that *would* be a violation of the First Amendment.

And proselytizing is *not* a charitable activity - it can't be demonstrated to help anyone unless you assume certain religious beliefs, which the government may not and should not do. So I think most churches and religious organizations would fail the charitable organization test - too much of their time/money is spent promoting their religion or politicking on its behalf.

Furthermore, any organization that discriminates on religious grounds should not receive public subsidy, either directly or through tax breaks, just like one that discriminates on grounds of race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.

Christians, or any other religion, have the right to practice their religion, but not to receive taxpayer subsidies for it, whether direct or indirect.

"Christians, or any other religion, have the right to practice their religion, but not to receive taxpayer subsidies for it..." Oh man, they evidently consider themselves beleagured and oppressed unless we're all practicing it, too. Theme parks are just the beginning.

Kevin Phillips, author of "American Theocracy," had an editorial in the Washington Post last Sunday called "How the GOP Became God's Own Party," arguing that the Republicans have now formed America's first religious party. It's a good commentary, and I agree with it, but I don't understand why Phillips is bitching now about the movement that he planned and, shall we say designed, in the first place. (Be careful what you design for, I guess.)

Some churches can reasonably claim to be charitable organizations, and I think there's a legitimate argument for some tax exemptions for charitable organizations.

If they keep the religious and charitable accounts separate and nonfungible, then I have no problem with that. The model should be People for the American Way, which has separate accounts for political activity (which is of course not tax-exempt) and educational outreach (which isn't).

And they certainly shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against gays or threaten to close up shop if the state forbids them to, the way Salvation Army does.

A Senate committee easily passed a bill that would grant theme parks "used to exhibit, illustrate, and interpret biblical manuscripts ... " an exemption from local property taxes, like churches, even though the parks charge money.

Great! I'm going to buy some land in Florida and start my own park called "Bible Baloney" where all the exhibits illustrate what a piece of self-contradictory hateful crap the Christian Bible is.

The vendors will sell my New York style pizza: Satan Slices.

It sounds like it'll be tax exempt, too.

Or is it only tax exempt if I promote a certain religion?

That sounds illegal to me.

Hello, Florida legislators! Bend over now.

[but I don't understand why Phillips is bitching now about the movement that he planned and, shall we say designed, in the first place.]

Umm, because as of at least 1990 he looked at what the GOP was doing to America and regretted it and has been trying to sound the alarm? He looked at the evidence and changed his mind, or had an attack of conscience, or something. What's so hard to understand?

PZ - About Hovind, please go beyond attending his talk - debate him! He claims during each talk that he's put out the invitation to debate "evolutionists" that night, but they have refused. Take up his offer, and, as Pigliucci has done, put him in his place!

What's so hard to understand about Kevin Phillips? Well, is an attack of conscience what he indeed has had? As it is, he contradicts himself left and right (literally):

"In that book I coined the term 'Sun Belt' to describe the oil, military, aerospace and retirement country stretching from Florida to California..." and in this book he set out the Southern stragety for winning the country for God's Only Party, then says, "In North America, I thought, the coming together of a heartland...would determine control of Washington." Nice going, meatwad.

He says, "Because the United States is beginning to run out of its own oil sources, a military solution to an energy crisis is hardly lunacy [it's not?]," then says, "The potential interaction between the end-times electorate, inept pursuit of Persian Gulf oil, Washington's multiple deceptions and the financial crisis that could follow a substantial liquidation by foreign holders of U.S. bonds is the stuff of nightmares. To watch U.S. voters enable such policies...is depressing to someone who spent many years researching, watching and cheering those grass roots." Why? What did this genius think was going to happen instead?

California is full of loonies as well -- Scientiologists, infinite bogus New Age Cults involving crystals, body builder governors (hey, didn't Minnesota do that first?), etc.

So, what, you'd rather live in Mississippi? Wyoming?

In defense of California, Schwarzenegger's popularity ratings are now abysmal and last November we told him where he could stick his ballot initiatives. I doubt very seriously he'll ever get re-elected. We do need to work on this unfortunate habit of electing governors just because they're celebrities. But that goes WAY back...

And we've never even come CLOSE to voting for George W. Bush.

Zeteo: One big problem with "debating" Cretinists is that they favor quantity over quality: They can raise a billion questions a second, and even if the scientist is prepared for the arguments, it takes much longer to explain the fallacies in each question than it does to raise them.

What did this genius think was going to happen instead?

Yeah, Kristine, I don't know. My first husband, a very radical leftist Moslem-raised atheist, always used to say that he and his friends felt betrayed by Khomeini, whom they had supported, and then they had to flee the country when he put into practice what he had preached in exile.

Why the strict religious Moslems supported Khomeini and his plans for theocracy, I totally get. But why the non-religious left who supported him were shocked that he actually carried out what he said he was going to--that, I never understood. Sounds somewhat like Phillips and his "cheering" , I think.

Speaking of Hovind, he's going to be in my neighborhood, at St. Cloud State University.

I wonder if Hovind uses the same garbage seminar material when speaking to an educated college audience?

Zeteo: One big problem with "debating" Cretinists is that they favor quantity over quality: They can raise a billion questions a second, and even if the scientist is prepared for the arguments, it takes much longer to explain the fallacies in each question than it does to raise them.

That hits the nail on the head. I have gone to part of one of his seminars (given by an underling) and it was very long and very rapid fire. It was a huge number of slides with all sorts of "arguments against evolution" and it seemed that anything and everything would be included no matter how absurd.

Hovind's website should have some samples of his seminars.

Jonathan Badger: "I'm not from either Florida or California and I've always thought there was a strong resemblance between the two states -- California is full of loonies as well -- Scientiologists, infinite bogus New Age Cults involving crystals, body builder governors (hey, didn't Minnesota do that first?), etc."

Both Florida (Clearwater) and California (Hollywood and Hemet) have Scientologists. Both have creationist organizations. Both have housing bubbles.

God's party?

We always need to translate that for these fools:

Hezbullah.

Perhaps (I am being hopeful) that will give tham a second or two pause for reflection.

This is one more example of the way that legislators use the tax system to hand out favors. It doesn't have to be this way:

http://www.fairtax.org/

-jcr

A Senate committee easily passed a bill that would grant theme parks "used to exhibit, illustrate, and interpret biblical manuscripts ... " an exemption from local property taxes, like churches, even though the parks charge money.

As I recall, the fact that the Church of Scientology demands money from its people for "treatment" is one reason it has had so many troubles with the IRS. This bill would then make it easier for organizations professing to be religious to require visitors to pay admission fees to attend services, for example, as long as biblical MSS were visible.

Well, you might be able to fool the Florida State Senate, but you can't fool the IRS. Let's see if these parks can avoid paying income and Social Security taxes, too.

Great! I'm going to buy some land in Florida and start my own park called "Bible Baloney" where all the exhibits illustrate what a piece of self-contradictory hateful crap the Christian Bible is

Sodom and Gomorrah Land - come in and participate in a drunken orgy with perverted nymphettes in order to see how terrible these cities were. Tax exempt, and immune from vice charges because it is purely for biblical education...

We can be thankful that atheists have never engaged in corruption.

You betcha!

(And if they did, they weren't "real" atheists.)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

We can be thankful that atheists have never engaged in corruption.

You betcha!

(And if they did, they weren't "real" atheists.)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

It's probably worth reminding everyone that Florida is also, of course, the world capital of spam.

James = doubledrivebytheist

Would you care to provide a list of atheists that were as corrupt as (say) your average 15th century pope, or are you just slinging unfounded rhetoric for the fun of it?

Even leaving aside the argument that religion - *all* of it - is one vast parasite on any society it inhabits, any serious study of history reveals that churches have often been riddled with corruption.

In any case, while corruption can occur in any human endeavor, corrupt scientists are almost always exposed by other scientists. Corrupt priests are hardly ever exposed by other priests of the same sect; churches usually prefer to cover up the misbehavior of their members rather than expel them even for very serious crimes.

World capital of Spam? Florida? You should know that the large amounts of Minnesotans here would be ... more than happy to allow another state to take credit for Spam. Good riddance.

(Although I think Hawai'ians eat a goodly amount as well)

SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE was ment to keep the government out of the church, some of you need to do some research instead of just drawing conclusions, none of you have researched anything, i can tell by your hateful and idoitic comments. i did something, i needed to know what life was about so i searched, but no of you seem willing to do much, anyways if you wanna discuss something, talk about what the government is doing to us as a people, go to

INFOWARS.COM

the information there is not conspiricy theories, they only tell you the facts, and you find out what it means to you. If god is not your god, then the government is.

oh no! i have to believe in evolution now! they found more bones!! wow somthing died! oh wait, does that mean that the "Aquada" boat slash car, proves that boats turn into cars if you give them a couple trillion years? hmm mabye people will think that in the future, if the car/boat survives a million years in ice, then the next species will think so.
Im curious, so i dont waste my freakin life having no point other then to live life to the fullest(even though i know that im just telling myself that to make me think im happy ) is there any better proof that evolution is real? because i was forced to go to your church ever sence middle school biology, while they try to convince me that nothing creates everything for 7 years. I guess ill have to go to the christians because their only ones sceptical enough to go against the theory of evolution. what evolutionist preacher is going to tell me about the flaws of his religion anyway, i havent found one yet.
you have found some truth to strengthn your belief in your god, but did you need it? no your faith is sufficient enough. the problem is will, not truth or faith. you have to want it first. and what you may want is no god. you get what you want . You dont live untill you find somthing to die for. ill pray that god shows himself true in your life as he did in mine.

-i care what happens to you, but he cares more