Camp Quest

Wow, that's great that they have a secular summer camp in Minnesota! That's unheard of around here.

(a tad apprehensively) What are you going to tell the kids at Camp Quest about dealing with creationists?

Now there is a camp I'd like to work at.
That's absolutely fantastic. Around here all the camps are christian camps.

From the camp website:

Encourage critical thinking in young people to enable them to draw their own conclusions

Yeah, except for conclusions that result in a belief in God. No, you can't draw your own conclusion about that. They decided that for you. Hooray for "freethought!"

Idiots.

The last few years have made it clear that irrational beliefs that motivate people to bomb, kill, and destroy social order is a major threat. One way to nip this in the bud is to inoculate kids when they are young by teaching them to think rationally and skeptically. This camp looks like an excellent example, but the effort needs to go throughout the school system. With so many people including the president believing in various supernatural entities, I am not sure how it would ever get there.

What are you going to tell the kids at Camp Quest about dealing with creationists?

Yes, I would like to know too - I for example failed with this one.

Just give them a sharp stick and tell them to aim for the soft parts.

I didn't say that. I plead lack of coffee.

Yeah, except for conclusions that result in a belief in God. No, you can't draw your own conclusion about that. They decided that for you. Hooray for "freethought!"

Idiots.

I can't resist. If they base such a conclusion on the tools of CT and can validate it with evidence then great. Otherwise they are still free to believe as they will but just won't be using good CT skills to do it.

Nobody has decided anything for anyone.

Unlike most church camps, one of which just returned my cousin a 14 year old crying as they pounded the children about hell in a sermon. That of course is presented as a 'truth' but of course those folks aren't idiots are they Jason. I mean they believe all kinds of wierd and bizarre things without one remote shred of evidence but of course they are the enlightened while those who choose to think are 'idiots'.

Interesting worldview, upside down but interesting nonetheless.

Camp Quest was specifically designed for children of Unitarians, atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, or whatever terms might be applied to those who maintain a naturalistic, not supernaturalistic, world view.

Hmmm. Nothing there about being unable to draw your own conclusions.

I'm planning to hand out an assortment of short, descriptive sheets listing evidence for evolution, letting the kids take a moment to read through whatever they've got, and then give a creationist-style talk, with one exception...they're encouraged to interrupt and shout out anything that might contradict what I'm telling them.

Nice one. That'll prepare them for the creationists who are actually sane.

Not sure how effective it would be if they were confronted by a Gish-galloper or someone with limited respect for the truth (I was gonna mention Hovind, but of course he's out of circulation...). Maybe give them a little on the philosophy of science and why it works, with an experimental demonstration of how to test an hypothesis or some such?

I plan on sending my daughter to Camp Quest next summer. We live in Texas, but my Mom and Dad actually live in Mound, right down the road from the camp. Figure I can send her to them, then let them drop her off at camp, pick her up, and send her back to me.

Here's hoping you will be there again next year, PZ.

Yeah, except for conclusions that result in a belief in God.

It would seem to be the case that there are certain conclusions that one simply cannot arrive at if one is properly thinking critically; for instance, obviously incorrect ones like "I'm Napoleon Bonaparte, the famous general."

I guess someone could successfully make a case that belief in God was a conclusion you could reach that way, but to date, no one is known to have done so.

PZ,

Good for you for volunteering at Camp Quest, which no doubt has plenty of Creationist camps competing for the minds of children. Last week Newsweek in their BeliefWatch blurb-column (why they started this is another story) highlighted these camps. They mention Camp Quest at the bottom.

The battle over evolution is moving beyond the court room and into summer camp. The Christian Camp and Conference Association said 50 percent of the member camps--which include summer camps and year-round after-school programs reaching 6 million kids every year--have a science curriculum about God's creation.

Says Karen Good, outdoor education director at Timber-lee, "The curricuÂlum is designed to open their eyes so when they go back to school [and hear about evolution] they say, 'Oh, that sounds goofy!"

Reprinted at BeliefNet: Creation Debates Go To Camp

It's more of the Ken Ham School Of Treating Science As Silly as in, "Was anyone there to see the dinosaurs?" I can imagine kids wearing buttons that say, "Evolution is goofy!" Their aim to reach kids at very tender ages when their natural curiousity and skepticism are ripe for indoctrination troubles me most. I can relate to the family/social/peer pressures that religion exacts on young minds and a degree of mental stress that causes. I'm glad there are atheist camps where kids can feel "safe" among their peers and adults who encourage reality-based thinking and observation.

An aside: A young boy came up to me in the park once and asked me, "Did God make that tree?" I found myself looking around for his parents lest they pounce on me for not saying yes. I rattled on about seeds, how looking at the tree's rings we can tell when there were drought years, etc., but I didn't flat out say, "No, God didn't make the tree." Would you have said no? I've encountered this issue with my nieces; there's no tolerance for my saying, "No, I don't believe that."

Oku, I looked at that site and have a *hypothesis*! I have been done a lot of work on my own time with animal behavior, care, and training for most of my life and I get the impression that most critters have a vague concept of the past, live in the present, and don't have any concept of the future. This person seems to have that going on a bit, spewing stuff about the past and wanted there to be a future in heaven but he/she doesn't seem to really grasp anything except the present. He/she seems to think that trees are immortal, when mud washes out of the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, etc. no further change happens. Trees don't die, tides don't move sediment, that sort of thing.
As for Jason, I'm kind of new to this forum but I'm finding the irony that someone is so angry about Christians being stereotyped as rabid nut jobs that he's acting like a rabid nut job kind of funny. What's next, publishing PZ's home address and phone number on that blog that doesn't allow comments? Zheesh!

Wow, that's great! Sure wish there had been something like Camp Quest when I was growing up.

Do the kids get to sing the Christianity song (to the tune of the Pepsi-Cola song)?

Christianity hits the spot
Twelve apostles, that's a lot
Jesus Christ and a virgin too
Christianity is the thing for you.
(Chorus) Holy, holy, holy....

Wow, Camp Quest sounds like a blast. Wish I weren't too old to go. My 7YO (who got us in hot water with my in-laws by telling his brother "Come on, Rhys, you know there's no God") should be just about the right age in a couple years.... hope you're still doing the faux-creationist talk then, PZ.

Yeah, except for conclusions that result in a belief in God. No, you can't draw your own conclusion about that.

Jason apparently missed the part that mentions critical thinking, which made up the heart of the sentence he quoted.

Interesting. There was a similar story in the Cincinnatti Enquirer last week about a Camp Quest in southern Ohio. When did this become newsworthy?

I think Jason could use a week or two at this camp. Anyone want to pitch in with me to sponser him?

I think the minimum age is something like 8 -- Jason doesn't meet the maturity requirements. And wouldn't that be a simply awful thing to do to the other campers?

Especailly when the 8 year olds start getting ticked off and start saying stuff like..

" Sit down Jason! Screaming your argument doesn't make you more right. Geeze what a dork. Hey Jason you still believe in Santa too?"

I heard about this a few months ago. I have actually started saving to send my daughter next summer. What makes it even cooler for me is that my inlaws live in the same town as the camp, so if there is an emergency we have family right there.

I thought I'd include a link to their website, it tells you how to volunteer, other locations. And there is another secular camp.

http://www.camp-quest.org/?contentPage=main.xhtml

http://www.campinquiry.org/

Excellent PZ! I'm there earlier in the week doing my usual thing with popular culture and critical thinking. I'll be getting talking about individuals and society and the relationships between those who hold power and those who don't by using episode 1 of "The Prisoner." Last year I did a discussion about ethics by using the episode "The Pegasus" from Star Trek: The Next Generation. It's great fun.

I have a timely post about a horrible Christian summer camp used to indocrinate 140 helpless little kids put on by my wife's church just last week.

By the way, your "minimum age" of 8 roughly coincides with the Christian camp's "maximum grade" of grade 4, roughly age 9.

That sure allows this poor, brainwashed little kids the ability to critically-think about Jesus, eh?

"I'm planning to hand out an assortment of short, descriptive sheets listing evidence for evolution, letting the kids take a moment to read through whatever they've got, and then give a creationist-style talk, with one exception...they're encouraged to interrupt and shout out anything that might contradict what I'm telling them."

PZ--do you mind if I borrow this idea for CQ Michigan? I think we can have a lot of fun with it.

I've recently been contacted by a representative from AiG, who is interested in coming to camp to do their presentation, so that "in the interest of free inquiry, campers get to hear both sides and decide for themselves" or some such rot. I doub that our campers are in any danger of being brainwashed by Ham's Pack O' Lies, and several could probably hold their own against one of theirs. Rather than debate, however, I'm being persuaded that the better approach is humor--since cretinists have nothing of scientific interest to contribute, we do not have to take them seriously. Until they try teaching their nonsense in school, anyway.

BTW, in the interest of shameless self-promotion, CQ Michigan will be accepting camper applications until August 5. Camp runs from August 13 - 20.

-Z

HOw did it go at Camp Quest?

It went well. I'll try to put up something about it later -- I'm just all tangled up with travel and other obligations this week.