This is not what secularism is about

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PZ
Updating my copy of the 3.3-million-old 3-year-old post there was sidebar link to "Hox cluster disintegration." This makes the third time I've tried to get to it and received a "missing file" message.

I wonder how long it's going to take before this decision is twisted into being part of the conspiracy against the religious. Funny that they control nearly everything and still think they're being persecuted.

Thanks, PZ--I thought the same thing when I read this in the Times this morning.

I'm disgusted by elements in every segment of the political spectrum who think ideology, profanity, violence or anything else should be banned from TV shows because the Great Unwashed are too dense or too apathetic to change the channel or just shut the damn set off.

My kids are quite thoroughly unwashed (having just gotten home from an overnight camping trip) and I'm perfectly capable of turning off VeggieTales on my own, thank you.

"I wonder how long it's going to take before this decision is twisted into being part of the conspiracy against the religious."

It's these groups that originally forced television to edit down really good cartoons in the first place, so they no longer make sense. So he shouldn't complain when it happens to his dreck.

Remember the old Loony Tunes cartoons when we were kids? They were well animated and funny for both adults and kids. Now, if they show them at all, they're so edited down that some scenes no longer make sense. Mostly, they've taken out all the cartoon violence. I remember one set in a light house where Sylvester gets his tale plugged into a light socket. The last time I saw it, that was cut.

Heh heh heh... Most people wouldn't pick up on it, but the animated series Pokemon is basically shamanism for kiddies. This is perhaps linked to its Japanese origin, as I've been told Shinto has a strong shamanic component. The moral lessons are well handled, and not obnoxiously pedantic.

The best popular introduction to shamanism I know of is Michael Harner's The Way Of The Shaman. Harner started as an anthropologist, and experienced the shamanic rituals of a variety of cultures before founding a modern "school" of practice. (No drugs in his version, it uses drums and rattles for trance induction.) You can get more information (or order the book) at www.shamanism.org, which which I have no particular connection.

I'm going to disagree on this one. The Religious Reich would be rabid if the same cartoon was stating evolution as fact.

Kids shows not specifically defined to be on one side of the fence have managed for years to steer clear of the whole issue, and I think they should continue.

I have seen an increasing use of religion in otherwise-secular American shows as "product placement". I'm biased, of course, but has anyone else seen it. I'll give some examples if prompted, but it's way off topic.

Cheers.

You know, as far as I'm concerned, if television gave children nothing but a boring, toothless message to be nice, I think it would be a vast improvement in the boob tube.

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Here is a video interview with Richard Feynman about one way that children can learn. As usual, he makes a lot of sense.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6586235597476141009

Are you kidding? You can't even give a proper operational definition for 'scientism', much less talk coherently about the difference between it and science.

The problem is that pious plants are under-represented by US television, in exactly the same way that leftists & liberals are.

Bob & Larry are the Alan Colmes of botanical epiphany, providing a feeble and emasculated vision of their (admittedly boring) god. Kids today deserve a hearty vegetable visionary, one capable of conveying what mystical enlightenment can be munched directly from the soil.

In that spirit, I offer up my name for the first specimen of truly theogenic flora: stay tuned for the debut of Peyote Pierce!

(Candace Cannabis, Sally Psilocybin, and their friends will show up later - as soon as they wake up...)

Vargas, face it. You can't type vowels for shit, so go away.

In reference to the original post, I believe government censorship of anything on TV goes against what our country stands for, and yeah, censoring "God" out of public discourse just gives the wackos more ammo to cry "But, but, religious persecution!!!" Overall, I grow tired of dealing with the religious morons beacuse they can point to periods in history where Christians were persecuted and then play the "Poor me and my devout faith" card everytime science ruins their shit. This will just give them one more thing to bitch about. (cf. Vargas)

Funny that they control nearly everything and still think they're being persecuted.

How do you think they got to be in control of everything? It wasn't by embracing a healthy lack of paranoia, that's for sure.

Are they removing all references to God, or just cutting off the overt preaching of the sermonette at the end?

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I found out about this when flipping through the channels and saw the usually pious talking produce on a MSM channel and noticed the lack of Christian references.

What bugged me about that was that kids from non-Christian families might watch the show and then ask their parents to buy them the DVDs/books/whatever-else-they-sell, which would of course have Christian content.

It seemed like a tricky backdoor evangelism aimed at kids and unsuspecting parents and that it would be better if they were honest about what VeggieTales is about. If the censoring was forced on them by NBC, then VT makers can't be blamed, but that bait-and-switch outcome is still the same regardless.

VeggieTales is part of a block of cartoons called "Qubo" (I think that's how its spelled), along with a new version of "Babar", some space penguins (who I believe are also Christian), and others. Weird thing is, Qubo is also on the "i" ("independant") network, formerly PAX (aka, the network that used to run full-on YEC documentaries in prime time). It's branded slightly differently with "Qubo on i" as opposed to "Qubo on NBC", but is otherwise the same line-up and episodes. I wonder if the i network version is uncensored?

Censorship is bad, period. I trust that anyone who has seen some of my other comments here will realize that I yield to few people in my disdain for religion, so keep that in mind when I say that I also get annoyed at dumb crusades to eliminate nativity scenes from Christmas displays or eliminate "God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. (Yes, I am well aware of the McCarthyite origins of its insertion. But the whole idea of the Pledge frankly bothers me a lot more than that one word does.) These things advance no worthwhile principle in any meaningful way, they just rile people up.

Gay marriage is important. Sound teaching of evolution in public schools is important. Mangers, or Godly vegetables, are not important.

dsmvwlng s cnsrshp. prd.

Uh, no, Alexander. The airwaves, public squares, and public schools are public. This is a private forum. It is well within PZ's rights to run it as he sees fit.

Frac, I'm glad you mentioned the "product placement" issue. I thought it was just getting overly sensitive, but I agree with you. Some otherwise reasonable shows seem to be pandering to the god crowd.

Alexander Vargas, glad you found the vowel keys and btw: Dawkins Rocks!

Funny that they control nearly everything and still think they're being persecuted.

Of course they think they are being persecuted. Self-persecution is a founding pillar of Christian religions.

disemvoweling is censorship. period.

Consider it shithead tax.

Anybody recall a kid's show from the 70's (?) called "Lancelot Link: Secret Chimp"? The cast consisted of either chimps or bonobos. There was also a "band" (same cast) called "The Evolution Revolution". I was old enough to notice it's existence but not so young that I was interested enough to watch it much. I can imagine that the fundamentalist camp would have been upset by this show. I bet that the networks wouldn't dare try anything like that for kids now, given the greater power of the religious Right these days.

...let Sam Harris be a recurring guest on Sesame Street, or something equivalent. Can Dora the Explorer be a godless heathen?

The only cartoon that explicitly promoted rational thought was Scooby-Doo, where every week supernatural entities were shown to be just some criminal in a silly costume. Unfortunately the new version of Scooby-Doo that they premiered this morning does away with that in favor of a wacky, Bondian super villain.

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I agree with PZ's post.

But I must admit that I'm also experiencing some pleasant shadenfreuder (sp?)that the PTC's policy of badgering the networks into eliminating anything that might be deemed offensive has turned around and bit them in the ass.

No boobies? No God.

Fair's fair.

Yes, we can indulge in a moment of schadenfreude- we are only human afer all!- but then we should come firmly back to the realization that in a free society nobody should be afraid of boobies, or god, or godlessness.

G wy, Vrgs. ts tm fr yr np. Hey, this is fun!

I'm not shocked or dismayed, PZ. Not mentioning Gawd is a good way to not have atheism mentioned, and not to bring up religion's injustices, either. No one wins then. For that matter, what would the films "Lady Jane" or "Wicker Man" (the original) be without the central religious issues?

nobody should be afraid of boobies, or god, or godlessness

Or balls, guys. What's good for the gander is good for the goose.

PZ
Happened again, here, just now. "Hox Cluster Disintegration" done disintegrated.

I see the problem -- there's a bad url imbedded in the links file. I won't be able to get it fixed until the weekday, but until then, here's the good link.

Kristine,

I'm not shocked or dismayed, PZ. Not mentioning Gawd is a good way to not have atheism mentioned, and not to bring up religion's injustices, either. No one wins then.

Yep. That is certainly the point. Free speech is always a good thing, but large media corporations are not interested in free speech. They are interested in advertizing revenue. While the individual executives at NBC may have a personal stand on freedom of expression, in the performance of their jobs they see it as their duty to maximize profits in the short term. All that god-talk might not be appealing to non-Christians. Thus, as PZ so aptly puts it, we get "inoffensive pablum." Not unlike a McDonald's cheeseburger.

Why don't we just turn the TV's off -- unhook from the IV line of brain-wasting blandness -- and read a few good books?

Meanwhile we can try to vote into political office people who might actually have the balls to constrain corporate power.

Meanwhile we can try to vote into political office people who might actually have the balls to constrain corporate power.

Unlikely as long as politicians who spend more money than their opponents are significantly more likely to be elected. It's said that you can't cheat an honest man, but it's more true to say that you can't elect quality candidates with a stupid populace.

I don't really understand the rationale for opposing this. Censoring Christian references makes a lot more sense than censoring sex, violence and profanity; after all we know that exposing children to Christianity causes harm. Arguing that it will also lead to censorship of atheism seems rather beside the point.

jbark said it first, but while I feel the restrictions imposed on VT's broadcast version are unreasonable, it's funny to watch the PTC jump up and down and shriek about censorship (hey, I thought you guys _liked_ censorship). It would be nice if they'd thereby learn a valuable lesson about the subjectivity of "objectionable content" and the arbitrariness of culturally-based censorship, but, eh, let's be realistic.

Spelling: Schadenfreude.

I am totally against censorship of any kind when the government is behind it, for then I myself am culpable. But if NBC wants to make its own decisions, I really don't care. I don't watch TV anyway. And that's my own choice.

Everyone's spending way too much time on censorship and the benefits are lack thereof of removing Christian references in cartoons and blah, blah, but no one has yet to focus on the MOST important issue. So I will dive right in (tongue firmly in cheek, mind you). I'm very disappointed by the change in programming--not because of any Christian or non-Christian content, but because, DANG IT, I really LIKED Discovery Kids on NBC (and I don't have cable). Timewarp Trio was funny, and even a little bit educational (I got a couple Jeopardy questions right thanks to that show!), and Kenny the Shark and Tutenstein were both cute and funny, and now I'll NEVER know if the kids get off the island on Flight 29 Down! I SUPPOSE this means I can get out of the house faster and get more done on Saturdays now, and probably I should grow up and stop watching the toons, but it was a nice way to spend a Saturday morning. I want my old shows back!

I Choose You, Rafflesia arnoldii! - So says this

David Harmon mentioned Pokemon several posts ago, and I've always been strongly impressed with the obvious fascination with the real, current biological world that comes through in many of the models for these cartoon creations. They sure beat dinosaurs with saddles.

Squid Skin Reveals Hidden Messages
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060920191616.htm

Not religious, but polarized messages nonetheless!

Pokemon: well, I've never watched that show -- but two really interesting kids' movies with something of Japanese shamanism in them are Totoro and Princess Mononoke -- by the same guy who did Spirited Away (I liked that too, but like both of these better). Totoro is wonderful for younger kids -- a really sweet movie -- maybe I especially like it because it's about the kids of a college professor. Princess Mononoke is better for older kids -- really a good movie to think about in connection with issues about human relations with the natural world -- it's notable too in the way in which there simply is no good guy - bad guy line to be drawn in it in any clear way. Both are movies from a different world than ours -- a non-Christian and non-anti-Christian world.

Here is a video interview with Richard Feynman about one way that children can learn. As usual, he makes a lot of sense.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6586235597476141009

Many thanks for posting this; I've only had a chance to watch the first few minutes, but I shall enjoy watching the remainder.

I happen to have a boxed set of 5 CDs of lectures by the late great Dr. Feynman in my car. My kids (8 and 11) always ask to listen to them when we're on a long trip (much to my wife's chagrin). They particularly like the introductory lecture on gravity. They will listen in complete silence, completely engrossed, for an hour and half, which, as anybody who has kids of that age will understand is astounding.

Quite the accomplished raconteur, Dr. F...

I hate these dumb censorship fights; they never go after stuff I like, and I have to side with crap like 2 Live Crew and VeggieTales.

I say saturate the airwaves with Christian broadcasting. Whatever keeps 'em home.

Hmm. Chomsky seem like a concerned and thoughtful fellow on television.

"Chomsky has acquired many critics from both the right and left ends of the political spectrum. Despite his Jewish heritage, he has been accused of lending support to those accused of expressing anti-semitic viewpoints for his defense of Robert Faurisson's right to free speech." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky )

It seems Chomsky's point was:
""In that context, I made a further point: even denial of the Holocaust would not prove that a person is an anti-Semite. I presume that that point too is not subject to contention. Thus if a person ignorant of modern history were told of the Holocaust and refused to believe that humans are capable of such monstrous acts, we would not conclude that he is an anti-Semite. That suffices to establish the point at issue."" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair )

I wouldn't trust Dershowitz pertaining Chomsky:
"In 1972, according to his critics, Dershowitz attempted to discredit Israel Shahak, the chairman of the Israel League for Human and Civil Rights, who had sharply criticized Israeli treatment of Palestinians. ... In response, Noam Chomsky, citing court documents, claimed that the court had opined that the elections had not been held properly, that no conclusions or actions were to be drawn from it, and that Shahak and his colleagues were to continue to function as "those who now direct" the Israel League for Human and Civil Rights.[22] The controversy initiated by this dispute has fuelled ongoing personal animosity between Dershowitz and Chomsky" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz )

Uups! Wrong thread - please disregard my previous comment.

referencing my earlier post, referencing the post by bernada...

I just finished watching the whole Richard Feynman video. Wow... that was just fabulous. Does anybody know if that is available on DVD?

Millimeter, thanks for publicizing the Feynman video.

On another thing, there is a look at the Pope's rant.

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2006/09/21/pope/

And another thing. If you were looking for a summer camp for kids, maybe try this SFL Summer Camp:

SFL Saskatchewan Federation of Labour
Summer Camp @ Fort Qu'Appelle

http://workingtv.com/next.html

Scroll down to SFL Summer Camp if it doesn't appear on top.

All that god-talk might not be appealing to non-Christians.

When appropriate to the subject and in the interest of exploring political/historic issues, God-talk is interesting in a sociological sense; I just finished watching the BBC's series of Henry VIII (from the 1970s, with Brian Keith), and man, was there a lot of God-talk! But put into context, it reveals the machinations of powerful men during the time of the formation of the Anglican church, which had a lot to do with what happened to women of this era. An American drama would probably just focus on the behavior of Henry's wives ("Did she/didn't she?" etc.).

It's nice to see you posting again, Skooky, even if only to report a problem.

Regarding childrens' shows, I'm all for turning off the boob-tube! But I see that the Dawkins Foundation may make Dawkins' lectures for children available, and that's great. I understand that they were very popular.

Bad idea. If we let them take positive references to god out of children's programming, then they may use that as an excuse to take all the positive references to atheism out of children's programming.

Did I say something funny? Stop laughing.

Veggie Tales always kind of gets me hot...imagine what a cucumber with hands could do for me...

Let Veggie Tales be goderific. More nutritious for all the little vegetables watching it.

It is interesting to see how the old standard cartoons are being "cleaned up" as well. I was watching cartoon network about a year ago at 2:00 am when Mr. Magoo came on.

I was shocked when I heard Mr. Magoo's faithful "asian" servant Charlie's voice. It wasn't the original sterotyped, bad chinese accent that I had known and loved as a child. Gone was the plaintive "Mr. Magloo! Mr. Magloo!" It had been replaced by a bland stereotypical white guy voice.

Has anyone seen Johnny Quest lately? I wonder what Haji sounds like now? Surely Ignatz has been arrested for domestic violence for showing his love for Krazy Kat by bouncing a brick off her head. I must admit that I found that disturbing even as a kid who loved to watch the stooges clobber each other.

About pious kid-vid: anyone else here old enough to remember Davy and Goliath? It was a short clay-animation (long before "Claymation") from the early 60s about a kid and his dog, with a moral message in every episode. The opening theme music was "A Mighty Fortress".

Ignatz and Krazy Kat? Never saw it myself, but it sounds like the inspiration for the Simpson's "Itchy & Scratchy".

Tell your kids never to take moral or theological advice from any vegetable they wouldn't eat plain, no butter or salt.

Shouldn't the whole idea of talking vegetables be blasphemous to the fundies?

Shouldn't the whole idea of talking vegetables be blasphemous to the fundies?

Millimeter Wave: I just finished watching the whole Richard Feynman video. Wow... that was just fabulous. Does anybody know if that is available on DVD?

Here's a link to the producer's website where he offers it as a DVD (and in VHS too, PAL or NTSC).

As a parent whose in-laws inflicted VeggieTales videos on my children, I should mention, in the interests of fairness, that their Star Trek parody is hilarious and inspired. Most of the rest I can do without.

Bargal20, the vegetables don't have hands (albeit occasional telekinesis)... but the cucumber does have a tongue. And Freud would have a whole lot to say about the standard pose of the cucumber right next to the tomato.

spineless television executives will point to this decision as a rationalization for removing any atheist or non-Christian expression from their shows, too.

Although I have no problem with proselytizing in favor of proper tag closure.

I think it is a simple equation. And it doesn't have anything to do with sanitizing the cartoons.

Advertisers or the network probably tested the show and found that kids watched it longer without the moralizing. The network decided to run without the jebus references. It's a money issue, not censorship. Advertising during cartoons is big business, and if kids change channels...

Vargas: "Scientism scientism scientism".

Watch. I doubt I'll get disemvoweled - and you clearly will.

It's not mentioning that word that's the problem. It's the ineffective trolling. Honest.

hmm. Vargas's comment was deleted. Now I just look crazy.

[Steps on shattered remains of disemvowelled troll]

Well, Auguste, the best I can figure is that religious people will use science and rationalism as a brand of "scripture and tradition", one that has it's "holy" texts and axioms towards a central idea. The real problem is that they can't see that science is not our God, but our guide. It doesn't say anything about a belief, just that you use your mind and your eyes, something religious strenuously culls from its followers. Vargas shows us the perfect example of what happens when science exposes relious ignorance. The religious attack those who are taking them out of the comfortable womb and exposing them to reality.

Atheister than thou? No one is buying it, Vargas.

Thanks for allowing me the priviledge of disagreeing with you, you are truly a king among men!

Vargas is now junked on sight. Please don't feed the troll, or your comments will be left dangling without a referent.

All he says anymore is that we are a gang of dawkobots who practice scientism, and he's the only True Atheist here. There. That's the complete Vargas, so there is no further need for his comments.

I see deleted people.

If atheism is not simply another belief system/religion as the fundies claim, what kind of expression are you referring to? Do atheists evangelize? Are you simply referring to someone saying "hey kids, there is no God"?

There are plenty of ways atheist (and Christian, and other) viewpoints can be expressed short of proselytizing. Network television seems to treat worldview beliefs as if they don't even exist, though. At most, they're implicit in other elements of the plot.

But isn't any deity-absent piece of television - a science program, Extreme Home Makeover, Fear Factor (the ultimate in there-is-no-God programming, btw) - essentially filling the role you're talking about?

To put it another way, any program which promotes doing good without mention of religion or lack thereof seems to be an atheist (or at least nontheist) presentation of worldview.

Unless you're worried that the fundies will start pushing that very idea - i.e. that a science program on Discovery IS atheist proselytizing - which I guess I wouldn't put past them.

"All he says anymore"

Yes. Remember the good old days, oh say 4 weeks ago, when he made partway sense on some topics? To my eternally shame I actually engaged in discussions. Ehw! Now I have to go watch the pretty Sunday cephalopod to wash my brain out.

Unless you're worried that the fundies will start pushing that very idea - i.e. that a science program on Discovery IS atheist proselytizing - which I guess I wouldn't put past them.

This is precisely the argument that was being advanced on the History Channel discussion boards a week or two ago--HistoryChannel.com doesn't allow you to contact them directly about their shows, so I had to go over to the discussion boards to register my complaint about the truly execrable series "Drive Thru History" that I was bamboozled into TiVoing.

It turned out to be nothing but a bunch of execrably transparent Christian proselytizing combined with an utter ignorance of historical fact (the host referred to the medieval political entity of which Constantinople was the capital as the "Holy Roman Empire"). Every historical occurrence was interpreted as clearing the way for Jesus' message to sweep through the Mediterranean world; Old Testament prophecy was cited as unambiguous Truth.

So anyway, there was a long long LONG conversation over there started by a few folks who felt the History Channel had no business running such blatant evangelical propaganda, accompanied by several others who said "well, the Christian worldview is one thing, but getting Byzantium and the Holy Roman Empire confused is quite another." And of course, the board was mobbed by fundies of every stripe who alternately claimed that (a) who cares about a few factual errors when there are souls to be saved from hellfire? and/or (b) every show that doesn't hoot and holler for Jesus is representing an atheistic viewpoint, so this was just the History Channel's way of achieving "balance."

Graduates of the Roger Ailes School of Journalism, I suppose...

When I was a kid, I remember watching Hanna Barbera's 'Yogi's Ark'. Every episode had a 'moral'. I remember hearing that American cartoons had to have one now. How my heart sank. From then on, it seemed that a lot of cartoons had this epilogue where the 'moral' was pointed out, just in case we'd missed it. It was dreck then and it's dreck now. I agree with Robster, moralising in cartoons is a turn-off (or channel-switch). The only kids who watch inspirational cartoons are the ones who are forbidden to watch such uplifting programmes as 'Yu-Gi-Oh', 'Teen Titans', and 'The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.'

The only kids who watch inspirational cartoons are the ones who are forbidden to watch such uplifting programmes as 'Yu-Gi-Oh', 'Teen Titans', and 'The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.'

Hey, MY kids can't watch "Yu-Gi-Oh." (They're not only permitted, but encouraged, though, to watch "Cosmos," "Metal Mania" on VH1 Classic and "Aqua Teen Hunger Force.")

I just can't deal with the karate chops and accompanying noises.

As a fire-and-brimstone Atheist, I find it deeply charming and apropriate that Christians are using vegetables as their spokesmen to children -- if the grown-ups are ecouraged to behave like sheep, why shouldn't the children be taught to think like vegetables? Does nobody else appreciate the unintentionally sardonic humor here?

-
"Gee Daddy, if I believe in Jesus, will I grow up to be a vegetable, too?"

"Sure thing, sweetie."

About pious kid-vid: anyone else here old enough to remember Davy and Goliath? It was a short clay-animation (long before "Claymation") from the early 60s about a kid and his dog, with a moral message in every episode. The opening theme music was "A Mighty Fortress".

There's a show on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim called "Morel Orel", which if I'm not mistaken is essentially a parody of Davey and Goliath. It's quite funny.

"Gee Daddy, if I believe in Jesus, will I grow up to be a vegetable, too?"

"Sure thing, sweetie."

Or you could grow up to be a DFW that thinks like this:

Excerpt from NY Times: Christian Conservatives Look to Re-energize Base

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/us/politics/25conserve.html?_r=1&th&e…

To revive some of the emotions around the issue, several organizers said they were taking up the argument that legal recognition of same-sex marriages would cramp the free expression of religious groups who consider such unions a sin -- an idea much discussed at the conference.

A Roman Catholic group in Massachusetts, for example, recently stopped offering children for adoption rather than provide them to gay couples.

Yeah, sweetie, choose life, but only if it is still a blastula! Because you wouldn't want real living children being cared for by loving compassionate adults who are living in sin, because that would cramp the free expression of the poor persecuted fascists er, religious groups.

And some still want to be nice to these people?

There's a show on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim called "Morel Orel", which if I'm not mistaken is essentially a parody of Davey and Goliath

The Simpsons episode in which Homer got the illegal cable TV hook-up had an (audio-only) D&G parody. It's obviously early Sunday morning, Homer has been up all night watching the tube, and we hear:

(Squeaky-voiced Davy): We'd get there faster if we took my dad's car!

(Deep-voiced, canine Goliath): I don't know, Davy...

anyone else here old enough to remember Davy and Goliath?

Ahem. Yes, I'm old enough [cue violin strings for my lost youth]. Moral Orel is definitely a parody. Someone also did a one-act play for the Fringe Fest parodying Davy and Goliath, some years back; Davy decided to put down the slingshot and embrace his animal nature, if you know what I mean.

The only 2 shows I have forbidden as too loathsome for my child to watch: Bratz and Veggie Tales. Of the two, I'd rather she watched Bratz. She and I both know it's a commercial for crass and awful toys. But VT is a trojan horse filled with sinister religious propaganda.

it would be lovely to have veggie tales sans the god-message. the veggie tales christmas video i watched with my niece a few years back had some excellent musical numbers.

however, i also think it's okay to have veggie tales with the god-message: just be sure you watch the program with your child -- what better way to bring up and discuss the fantasy of god? is there a magical man in the sky? NO! do vegetables really talk? NO! it's all a fantasy. but fantasy can be fun too: santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy. but at a certain age most kids stop believing in these myths.