Some commenters wondered if the Ken Poppe mentioned in the previous story was the same Ken Poppe who wrote a creationist book, Reclaiming Science
from Darwinism. Yes, it is. He's at Trail Ridge Middle School, a public school in Longmont, CO, and is listed as teaching 6th grade science. He freely admits to teaching creationist crap to his class, and says that the book grew out of his lessons.
For a quick estimate of the scientific quality of his book, look at the cover. Look carefully. Anyone notice anything … funny … about that putative DNA molecule? Oh, well, it's just the cover, accuracy doesn't matter.
Here's the church newsletter where he brags about corrupting kids' science education.
With a deep rooted passion for science, one can only imagine the personal
conflict that can come for a person of faith teaching in today's public schools.
But Ken Poppe's love of science, his understanding of the origins of life, and
his faith have all compelled him to seek and share truth, despite controversy.
What sparked his interest in the study of intelligent design over evolution?
Ken's passion and frustration goes back all the way to 9th grade. "My biology
teacher and textbook promoted a walking fish leaving the ancient seas
to become a dinosaur. I felt something was fishy, but it took me awhile to
understand the faulty scientific implications of Darwinism. Later I was
obligated to teach the same evolutionary material," says Ken.Although his belief in an intelligent designer (God) as the origin of life went
against the standard teaching, Ken continually found ways to present both
sides. It is one of the ways he feels called to serve God, despite controversy
and job security. "Too many of my own biology students who professed
faith were stumbling over the 'monkey-to-men' pictures in the books I'd give
them. For their benefit, I would bring Darwinism into question, but tread
softly because of the disfavor voiced by administration and an occasional
parent." How did Ken find a way to help his students? "I began writing short
essays on Darwinian failures for optional outside reading." Those essays
eventually formed into the backbone for Ken's first book, Reclaiming Science
from Darwinism.He likens his life to a journey like that of Esther's--being in the right place at
the right time. "I now understand how Esther must have felt as events kept
carrying her along. There came a time when she needed to 'get on board'
because if she didn't, God would just find someone else. Like her, I've learned
to trust a lot more, and be more willing to serve." And Ken has certainly had
to trust. He has been transferred twice to teaching positions where evolution
is less emphasized in the curriculum. "Some of the bumps in the road have
been tough, but they have always had a positive outcome. God has taken
care of me in some marvelous ways, despite outside circumstances and my
own unwillingness sometimes." Like Esther, Ken sees his life as a little story
folded into the much bigger story God has going "because I never started
out to write a book!" he laughs.
In other words, this incompetent scumbag is lying to his students, wandering from the established curriculum to confuse the kids with this absurd crackpottery, and the parents and administrators in the Longmont school district are letting him get away with it. They're clearly aware of the problem, since they've been shuffling him around, but I don't understand why they're letting him teach science at all.
Seriously, what's wrong with Colorado? The parents in Dover, PA rose up to throw out the sleazy creationists who tried to slip their propaganda into the schoolroom, but some Coloradans apparently can't be bothered to care about the quality of their children's science education.
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How far is that place from Colorado Springs?
I'm not afraid of your witchhunt.
Bring it on, secularists. Bring it on.
"Honey, I shrunk the bases!" Wow, that's some major groove.
I'm not afraid of your witchhunt.
It's not HUMANS you should be afraid of, o arrogant one.
Bring it on, secularists. Bring it on.
Why do you assume everyone opposed to you are secular?
You know what's great about God? Whatever happens, I can always say that He's either trying to teach me a lesson or He's rewarding me. Secular humanists can't prove otherwise, but it's amusing to watch them try.
Even if you get me kicked off this job, I'll just find a teaching job somewhere else. There are plenty of excellent private schools where Christians aren't persecuted (I know you atheists here hate to admit that such places even exist).
Or else I'll write a book. I have a title for my next one: "American Atheists: Revelation of the New Fascism." I think I'll sell a bunch, especially with my newly acquired martyr status.
Or maybe I'll answer that phone call from Dr. Luskin at the Discovery Institute, who invited me to work with them as an adjunct fellow.
Longmont is about 100 miles from the Springs. I've only ever stopped there en route to Fort Collins or places beyond, so I can't comment on the school system, but - obviously - the science isn't so great.
He likens his life to a journey like that of Esther's...
Shall he enter the harem of a powerful Darwinist leader, and slowly gain his/her trust?
"What's the matter with Colorado?"--it's in the same hemisphere as Texas? ;-)
Can I make a guess as to what is wrong with the picture on the cover? It is a coiled ladder and not a double-helix.
I can imagine that Ken Poppe is seen by most people as presenting a "Fair and Balanced" approach to the origins controversy. The loan regular commenter to my own blog has presented this guy, Lawrence Selden, at http://darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com/2005/08/my-favorite-posts.h…
as a "dispassionate discusser" from the ID side. I checked his blog out and found that he "used to be an evolutionist" until he looked at the facts, and now he is a "macroevolutio n agnostic." He cites Behe and Johnson as fellow travelers. Anyone else heard of him?
You know what's great about God?
Oh, hell, yeah. Dude don't exist. Best damn day of may life was the day I realized it.
I checked his blog out and found that he "used to be an evolutionist" until he looked at the facts, and now he is a "macroevolutio n agnostic." He cites Behe and Johnson as fellow travelers.
Jesus hates Lawrence Selden and wants him to die.
Seriously. I looked at the facts. Someone alert the man so he doesn't drive a school bus or something.
Sorry about that lame attempt to sound like a redneck, fellow science buffs.... :)
I don't think this is really Poppe.
You know what's great about God? Whatever happens, I can always say that He's either trying to teach me a lesson or He's rewarding me
Yes, you can say what you want, but isn't it funny that god never actually says anything? I listened out for him for 25 years and never heard a peep. He makes a pretty good impression of something that isn't there.
I listened out for him for 25 years and never heard a peep.
I was busy chewing on a parallel universe. It's rude to talk with my mouth full. Now I have the Internets.
So ... what's your prob? And I hope it's not another sob story about a pet with cancer or some crap.
Damn you God - you choose now to reply to me - 10 years after fluffy died - on a blog of all places? I always imagined it would be through a cloud, the message delivered on gold plates or parchment at least. Holy messages ain't what they used to be.
But, Tom, did you listen with your heart? That's where he resides, after all. He can't go near your head because thinking is like Kryptonite to God.
I've not heard of him anywhere outside the novel The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton. It's probably a pseudonym.
To be fair to Colorado, we also has the best city in the nation, Fort Collins, with one of the better biology programs for a public school at Colorado State, one of the better engineering programs (although Salem's Hypothesis still holds), and the second best vet program in the nation. Although, I guess we *are* next to Laporte, CO, one of the nation's centers for white supremacy... hmmm...
Boulder is okay, I guess, except for the coke and meth problems...
Colorado overall has one of the highest frequencies of Bachelor's, Masters, and Doctorates per capita than any other state. And Denver is the least fat city in America, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, we also re-elected Marilyn Musgrave, a zealous gay-bashing, immigrant-hating, nuke-promoting bitch. And Tom Tancredo, of the "nuke mecca" infamy...
Well fuck. Try not to judge all of Colorado by the Springs. Sure, a lot of my home state is a bunch of christian fundie ranchers, creationist engineers designing weapons for Lockheed Martin, and crystal-meth-addled trailer trash, but those people don't count, anyway. :)
"I've not heard of him anywhere outside the novel The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton. It's probably a pseudonym."
That's all I turned up as well when I searched for anything that he had done, but my searches were limited to Google and Yahoo. The only non-fictional references I found turned back to his blog, except a reference to one of his blog entries on evolution-news regarding the Zogby Poll that showed that Americans want our children "taught the controversy." He also came to the conclusion that the higher one's education level the more likely one favored teaching the controversy.
The poll was commissioned by the Disco. Institute, btw.
I'm not afraid of your witchhunt.
Bring it on, secularists. Bring it on.
You are a true saint who has brought the Gospel of Jesus into a temple of Darwinian lies. Did your collegues suspect you of being on Christ's side only after they got wind of your lesson plans or was it when you refused to participate in the gay sex orgies in the faculty lounge?
It's a bit disappointing. I'm adapting The House of Mirth as an opera, and writing the character of Lawrence Selden for myself, and now I'm never going to think of it without this gloss on it. It might not be too late to change his fach to a baritone rather than tenor.
Interestingly enough, despite the claim that "[t]he distinction between the two [macroevolution and microevolution] is critical and is largely ignored, or not understood, by the mainstream media and general public", he doesn't ever explain what the distinction is nor how it is commonly ignored or misunderstood. So while he may be a dispassionate discusser, he's certainly not discussing anything worth paying attention to, nor will he until he decides to start being specific.
I did, however, love his post "Challenges to Macroevolutionary Theory" where he claims he "provide[s] links to some of the best sources on the web to refute the ridiculous assertion that there is no credible scientific challenge to macroevolution." Now, I hadn't known that science is done by hyperlink, nor that articles from the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Commentary represented the sine qua non of scientific research. Clearly all this time I'm spending on a double major is wasted, and I should just switch forthwith to vocal performance alone and then start hawking my views in center-right or right-wing media. How sciencey!
Since "Dr" Poppe has so many alternatives in private schools and in the sponsorship of the Discovery Institute, I suggest he take advantage of them and get his lying ass out of the public schools.
I miss the days of Early Christianity, when acquiring the status of a martyr meant being forever after being disqualified from a publishing career.
By the way, as long as we've got "Dr" Poppe here, I'm very curious about what discipline his Ph.D. is in, and what institution bestowed it. Do let us know, please.
Yes DI is quite the little Flock of Fellows. *giggle*
[Seinfeld]Not that theres anything wrong with that![/Seinfeld]
*giggle*
Yeah, I would have said the same thing... Until I saw Margulis's idiotic posts. I could have sworn it was a troll pretending to be her, but alas...
Longmont is quite a jump from Colorado Springs and not usually associated with the nutjobs down there. It is in Boulder County, about 15 miles from the university of Colorado. I left before that school was even built, but never encountered anyone like this guy. Dan Simmons, the SF (+) author, was a public school teacher in the high-potential program while he was writing his early books. Not sure that makes up for this quack.
Not a PhD, PZ. Ed.D. From North Texas State.
LINKY!
[IMG]http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u106/MrMenshevik/Thestupid.jpg[/IMG]
Geez, when I read "trail ridge" my heart skipped, because there's a school by that name near me in Kansas, too.
Poor Colorado Springs is a victim of Dr. James Dobson's decision to move Focus on the Family out of godless California. I'm not sure why he decided to pick on Colorado Springs, but once he moved his big organization there it became a magnet for other like-minded fringe operations. (I say "fringe," but they managed to become way too mainstream for my tastes.) Sane folks in Colorado Springs have to deal with the influence of these rightist Christians and I'm sure it can't be fun. Wikipedia has a list of the biggest of these groups. Imagine having them in your backyard.
I think troll poppe is funny.
Btw comments like this made me lol:
"Next semester, I'll be teaching a history debate, entitled, "The Holocaust: Did It Really Happen?" followed by another biology debate, "Blacks: Subhuman or Not?"
The point is not to impart any particular substance regarding the subject matter, but simply to teach these 12 years how a proper debate is organized.
I think you'll agree that it will be a dynamic and exciting classroom experience for all." - troll poppe
Pumpkinhead almost had me going on the 1.7 m/yr thread.
Nothing wrong with an Ed.D., or with UNT -- but it does mean he's got no training and no qualifications in biology. Yet another presumptuous know-nothing...
well, as y'all may already know, I'm not a biologist, so I'd better stick to what I actually do know. From the Amazon description:
well, I don't know about you, but I'm convinced: Dr Poppe is a demented fuckwit. If he really is here lurking, I'd be more than happy to discuss.
Poppe wrote:
What? Why would a Christian be conflicted teaching good science in a public school? Aren't Christians supposed to manifest faith in good works? [Yes, they are; Jesus said we can tell the tree by its fruit; rotten fruit, unfaithful tree.] Teach good science, teach what is known, teach it well. It's noble service. No one not evil should feel any conflict in that noble service.
I can imagine a Christian's being conflicted about lying to kids, or being conflicted about violating state standards* -- but oddly, being honest, trustworthy, loyal or helpful don't seem to be virtues in Poppe's world. I can imagine his principal, if Christian, being conflicted about what disciplinary action might be necessary, especially since letting this go on so long is a violation of public trust.
* For example, Poppe's teachings run exactly counter to this 1995 Colorado science standard**: "3.4 Students know and understand how organisms change over time in terms of biological evolution and genetics.
"RATIONALE
"Students study the scientific concept of biological evolution--the changes in populations of organisms through time--in order to understand diversity and relatedness within the living world. Inquiries into evolution explain the ways in which natural processes produce life's diversity. These studies help students understand that evolution is the major unifying concept in the biological sciences and that it explains a wide variety of observations that can be made about the living world. In particular, students see that the study of evolution initiates questions about biodiversity, adaptation, genetics, mutations, the geological record, and the observed unity at molecular and whole-organism levels. This content standard does not define any student expectations related to the origin of life."
Now, that's a standard for high school, grades 9-12, but one would expect the middle school curriculum to not fly directly in the face of what Colorado thinks its kids need to know.
The middle school curriculum is much more elementary, but I think a fair reading should raise questions about the ethics of what Poppe is doing: "GRADES 5-8
As students in grades 5-8 extend their knowledge, what they know and are able to do includes
"• describing the purpose of body cell division and sex cell division;
"• describing the role of chromosomes and genes in heredity (for example, genes control traits, while chromosomes are made up of many genes); and
"• describing evidence that reveals changes or constancy in groups of organisms over geologic time."
Unethical behavior is unethical even when done for religious reasons -- especially when done for religious reasons.
I wonder if the district in Longmont has any ethical code, or anyone who watches curriculum standards? Is there a state test the kids need to pass? (what Poppe teaches would get a kid a particularly bad grade on the AP biology exam; what about other exams?)
** [a footnote to a footnote!] Here are the new Colorado science standards, for middle schools, relating to evolution; they are stronger than the 1995 version:
"Biological Evolution
"11. changes in environmental conditions can affect the survival of individual organisms, populations, and entire species
"12. changes or constancy in groups of organisms over geologic time can be revealed through evidence
"13. individual organisms with certain traits are more likely than others to survive and have offspring."
The Colorado standards were approved by the U.S. Department of Education just over a month ago, February 8, 2007.
Is it reasonable to ask Dr. Poppe how he plans to change his teachings to bring them in accordance with the Colorado standards?
By the way, Dr. Poppe, I speak for most Christian denominations, almost all of whom in the U.S. have statements supporting the clear teaching of evolution in public schools.
"Bring it on?" Santayana warned those who don't know history will repeat the mistakes. I gather you've never heard of George W. Bush, who famously said "bring it on" just before the Iraqi attacks on U.S. troops really got going?
Hey, Dr. Poppe worked hard for that doctorate in Deceptology, and he deserves your respect! It's not easy promulgating lies day in and day out to bright young minds that are always looking for inconsistencies and fallacies.
Or maybe I'll answer that phone call from Dr. Luskin at the Discovery Institute, who invited me to work with them as an adjunct fellow.
Don't they do that for just about anyone who agrees w/them?
What's with the cover of the book too? Is he a double helix denier as well? it's clearly meant to be a super-sciency impressive DNA-looking thing, but was done by someone with no knowledge of biology (or the ability to look this stuff up: come on how hard is it to google image search for the real deal?). I had a prof once who could draw these beautiful diagrams of how topoisomerases work on the helices freehand with both hands at the same time.
Is this one case where we can judge the book by the cover?
Living in the Springs isn't that bad, as it's a fairly large city due to rampant suburban sprawl, and the only really religious things we have to deal with are a higher than average number of SUV's with Jeebus fish and churches everywhere.
Oh, and demented billboards that say stuff like "ABORTION IS ALWAYS WRONG! -God". Nothing that your typical southerner doesn't have to put up with on a daily basis.
Come up to Ft. Collins, it's much nicer. We've got bike paths and rivers and a great university (not that I'm biased or anything).
This reminds me of the stories my mother used to tell me about counseling paranoid schizophrenics. Few psychological defense mechanisms are as bullet-proof as a firmly-held and unfalsifiable delusion.
No. I love the cover. It reminds me of that K'nex obsession phase my little brother went through several years ago. Make railroad tracks. Twist. Voila! LIFE!
Holy Christ...
Nightline did a big story on "The Secret" woo woo guys. I just finished watching it. Nightline did a really great job, talked to Brian Greene at Columbia, the head of the American Cancer Foundation, etc. "The Secret" guy looked like a pretty big ass.
I'll try to find a link for video tomorrow...
To be fair to Colorado, we also has the best city in the nation...
But evidently not the best grammar teachers...
Dr Popeye got it right on the cover!
Double helix DNA is a left wing, secular conspiracy!
Let's just sit down and call each other fascists. That always solves the issue.
If you want to teach religion's version of science, you need to do it in a religious school. There, that was simple, wasn't it.
Frankly, let's not forget, the hindu version of science as well and the islamic one. We could teach their versions of science too.
Personally, I think the science in the bible is fascinating. I never knew before that bird blood could be used to combat leprosy. What a wonderful example of science the bible is.
Regarding the liberal/conservative leaning of Colorado: It's also worth noting that gay civil unions in Colorado nearly passed over the last election. The results were 53% (con) to 47% (pro). Cities like Denver and Boulder were quite a bit higher pro-civil-unions, and cities further south (like Colorado Springs) skewed towards con. With a gap that small, it's only a matter of time before they pass here.
I was in Colorado Springs on business 10 days ago (from Ireland), and took a cab out to my company's offices. The cab driver was an older guy, looked a lot like Jerry Garcia, and as soon as I asked "isn't Springs a religious town?", he was off! Entertaining rant about how he had some "universal force" pantheistic belief, but had given up on organized religion decades before because of all the hypocrisy and corruption.
He was not at all surprised at the latest case (Haggard & chum), which just confirmed his opinions. I heard no more of religion the rest of the day, but then I was around very smart people at a high-tech company...
Ken Poppe:
"My biology teacher and textbook promoted a walking fish leaving the ancient seas to become a dinosaur. I felt something was fishy..."
Yes, that would be the... um... fish. Well known for it. Glad to see that he'd thinking so clearly.
About the cover pic:
1) (Posted by: quork | March 23, 2007 08:09 PM)
2) (Posted by: Mike Haubrich | March 23, 2007 08:18 PM)
Both of these are well and good, but more bothersome to me, for some reason, is #3:
3) The H-bonds are fucked up. I know these models are hard to make look like the real thing, which would have three "rungs" between A/T and two "rungs" between C/G, but to only put one "rung" after (not between) every two bases (not each one, at the very least) bothers me more than anything else. I don't know why.
Did he just say "Dr" Casey Luskin ?
Excuse me, isn't it obvious from his 2nd post that we are dealing with a parody? I mean, that post begins with an atheist argument and contains several more. That's not like Margulis' HIV denial.
This guy, on the other hand...
How many supporters of Davison are there? I only know two: you, and Davison himself. If I wouldn't read Pharyngula, I would now know of Davison's existence or of his ignorant ideas.
Well, read his books. They are available in plenty of libraries.
Should we be impressed? Do you think we all fall to our knees when we hear the word "professor"? The ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy. Tell me what he said, not who said it, because who said it doesn't matter.
Yea, well I lived in Colorado for over 10 years and believe me, it's almost as bad as the south. The only half-way intelligent folk out there are the myriad of Indians who have taken control of the tech industry there. The place sucks. Everyone thinks of the mountains when they think of Colorado, but really the place is a desert where everything has to be artificially watered.
Re: cover art for Poppe's book- I don't imagine there are any biologists working at Harvest House. Attention to detail really isn't a hallmark of Woo, and Christianity is just the most prevalent form of Woo.
Atheists value The Truth.
Christians value psychological comfort.
Check out his views on Global Warming:
http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?id=15357
Note: son named Caleb=religious extremist.
Not to git all C.S. Lewas or nutting, but anyune who simeltaneiusly claims to have a love of sciense and spouts that shat is either daluded, lyeng, or domb as a puddel of pyss. Ther ar no other logicly tenible altarnateves.
The onley jab he should be permittd to huld in a poblic school is claening the crappars, and onley then on weekands, when he can't prasylytize exept to the wals. Gudam dumfock!
The prublem isnt Coluradeau, its peepol waiving Bibbles from caost to coast. All the ahtiests who think beeng consiliatory tward theese aszhoals wil du aney good need ta cum hear and reed.
Yeah, creationism and climate-change-denial seem to go hand-in-hand...you should also look at his deep concern for his daughters' vaginas. Major creepiness.
I live in Longmont, and received the majority of my own public education in Lakewood, CO, Denver's westernmost suburb. The same is true for my younger sister, who is now teaching biology and earth science at Lakewood High School.
I can assure you that Poppe's views have no sympathy from us; my sister far more often has to deal with creationist attacks from students and parents. My third-grade son has received no creationist education, nor will he.
I also work at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, where leading research on global climate change is performed, and where the scientific consensus supports human-influenced global warming. Poppe does not represent the best and brightest we have to offer.
Please do not paint all of Colorado, or all of Longmont, with the same brush.
you know what's great about god?
anything i do -- no matter how depraved or sinful or morally reprehensible -- i can just magically wipe away by asking forgiveness from jesus christ almighty.
raping babies: forgive me father.
bombing an abortion clinic: forgive me father.
publicly pursue and attempt to destroy the career and life of one man over infidelity to his wife, all while cheating on your own wife: forgive me father! look! i'm not an adulterer (three times over) anymore! really -- falwell says everything's fine!
buying meth and frequenting a male prostitute, all while bashing homosexuality and lying to the 10 million members of the evangelical organization of which i'm president: forgive me father...look! i'm not gay anymore! really -- the church has declared me "sin free"!
christianity is flawed because there is always this instant out: done wrong? that's ok, just ask forgiveness. sin, ask forgiveness, sin again...no big deal, i've got a 'get out of sin free card'!
talk about your enabling behavior. no wonder the church is full of sinners and hypocrites like "doctor" poppe.
You know what's great about God?
Yes. She's got perky breasts that jiggle enticingly when she laughs at pseudo-scientists busy with their contortionist rationalism.
Colorado is the least obese state in the union.
lonesomerobot,
One word: awesome.
Hey PZ, I just checked the link you posted above about the overwhelming concern for vaginas, and this stuck out at me.
[snip]
...here is the probable value of the gift:...
Freedom from unwanted pregnancies
[snip]
I thought that these people's goal was to keep all their woman barefoot and pregnant, as many times as they possibly could. How could there EVER be an "unwanted pregnancy" since a pregnancy would be a "gift from God"? If you got pregnant, BY WHATEVER MEANS, then obviously it is God's will and you cannot ever go against God's will.
I guess they don't teach logic nowadays either.....
you should also look at his deep concern for his daughters' vaginas. Major creepiness.
Right you are. Yikes. I hope his daughter gets some real information and enjoys all the healthy pre-marital sex she can get her hands on...
In all my research, I was befuddled by the question: what do Kansans want?
Undulating fields of wheat stretch endlessly. There's no ocean to look at, no break from the visual conformity. It would depress me horribly, drive me mad, turn me back to the comfort of a little more blow.
At last, you have answered my question, Professor Myers. It was right in front of me all this time!
Kansans want to move to Colorado.
And given their propensities, they'd flatten the Rockies and turn out more effing undulating wheat. Flat-earthers always advance the thud way.
Or else I'll write a book. I have a title for my next one: "American Atheists: Revelation of the New Fascism." I think I'll sell a bunch, especially with my newly acquired martyr status.
Nice. As long as you make a buck, its all cool.
In re: Daughters' Vaginas: Why do you suppose an Ed.D would be signing his letter "Kenneth Poppe, Ph.D"? Lighten up, kids, and play nice! The poor little fellow's obviously confused. Or maybe he's just suffering from a severe case of degree envy...
Why is it that the "Religious Right" seems to produce so many people who pretend to be what they're not? Ted Haggard comes to mind (what IS wrong with Colorado?), as do Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart and a cart-load of others who tell us to do/believe one thing while they do the opposite. Hubris or hypocrisy...
But hey! We've got them believing in DNA! Now if we can only get them to accept that the sun is the center of the universe! (with profound apologies to Copernicus)
Wow, that virginity ring or whatever that Poppe gave to his daughter is seriously messed up. What wrong with explaining that sex can have consequences so be safe, it carries emotional as well as physical risks so be sure, but sex between consenting adults is fun, healthy and emotionally satisfying.
The way Poppe explains it to his daughter it's hard to imagine that she's not going to go into her first sexual encounter, after ritualistically passing on her father's ring to her mate, with all sorts of screwed up expectations. If the person she gives that ring to decides to break it off with her sometime afterwards (perhaps returning her father's ring to her... ewwww), hopefully she'll have some sane friends to help her work through all the emotions she'll be going through. Yikes.
While I hope my daughter can appreciate the emotional bonding that goes with the physical bonding, I hope she doesn't equate sex=love and has a few safe, happy, fun and vigorous partners before settling down. Thankfully, she's quite well adjusted in that regard.
Sex doesn't always end up in twisted, horrible, emotional scarring. I think it's quite the opposite. The only people who end up with emotional scarring are the ones who were told that they would end up with emotional scarring. Sheesh.
I really hope this guy gets canned. He's worse than the Kearney teacher.
Does this guy believe there were dinosaurs on the ark too?
I was wondering what the adjunct fellow (what is an adjunct fellow anyway?) gig at the discovery institute pays (probably more than a middle school science job)and that I would be willing to pitch in some bucks to sweeten the deal if we could get this idiot out of the public schools. I'll wager that if you lifted Poppe's shirt and looked at his stomach he would have a plexiglass belly button because the DI certainly likes their fellows to have their heads firmly planted up their butts!
I wouldn't be surprised if he was offered a spot at the DI.
It's not like any SCIENCE experience is required.
Randy, yeah...
What a bunch of bull. The red-state divorce rate is high because of immature people with no experience in having adult relationship jump into marriage. They mistake lust for love, and marriage is their gateway to socially and religiously legitimate sexual activity. A few years pass, life happens, they realize they don't know each other, the ardor (lust) has cooled, and they file.
I'm not arguing for (or against) virginity or promiscuity, but doesn't this guy know that learning from experience is good, emotionally readiness for sex is more meaningful than marital status, and that abstinence pledges don't work and often lead to unsafe sex and the consequences thereof?
I've always found that phrase, "secular humanist", as applied to those who support evolutionary theory by monotheist fundamentalists of any stripe, to be unintentionally ironic. To me, in their usage, "humanist" implies one who is "homo-centric", who believes that humans are exceptional, "Chosen", more important than God, or who believe that God does not exist at all because God is "unnecessary".
SO - say that one believes that God created "the Heavens and the Earth", the Universe, in short.
The universe is defined by its physical properties and laws in the same way that an onion is defined by its layers. The intricate sum of the laws that define the universe are God's Laws just as much as anything jotted down by humans and taken by their descendants as Holy Writ. And these physical Laws are Perfect, because, well, God is Perfect, of course.
Scientists have traditionally sought to understand the Laws of the Universe as a means to understanding how God has organized the Universe, as a means to understanding God's rational plan and purpose.
The understanding of the evolutionary process as developed by various scientists, then, is merely a representation of God's Laws applied. To presume that God would intervene in this process, would feel the need to violate God's own physical Laws in order to initiate or expedite the creation of one particular species, would seem to imply that God's laws are NOT perfect and, also, that God "chose" that particular species, made it an exception.
Perhaps God's Plan and Purpose was merely to create a self-sufficient Universe in which its own defining (perfect) laws would inevitably (through the evolutionary process) produce a sentient species on Earth (and perhaps numerous others in various environments in other parts of the Universe). God would then know beforehand that such a species, in its gradual "ascent" toward sentience, would develop the desire to understand the laws governing its own physical environment and the Universe at large. This species would, along the way, develop the technology to alter its own environment by applying that understanding and would thereby effectively gain "free will" - the power (and perhaps inadvertently, the necessity, by its own hand) to make a choice, collectively, regarding its own continued survival and development.
In my limited understanding of the evolutionary process, virtually ANY species could have become the dominant sentient species on Earth. So, if the human species chooses to destroy itself with a bang (total nuclear war) or a whimper (the slow death of a deteriorating environment), there is still plenty of time before the Sun explodes for the evolutionary process to work with Earth's raw materials to develop yet another dominant sentient species - perhaps one that will avoid fucking up in the same ways that humans have. So, perhaps God has no reason to really give a rat's ass about humans in particular at all. Perhaps what Evolution really does is reveal that humans in particluar are just not all that damn important to the Plan and Purpose. And, if the universe continues to exist after the human species has wiped itself out . . .
For those monotheist fundamentalists who believe that their subset (and ONLY their subset) of the human species is exceptional, is "Chosen" to carry out God's Will (and are more than willing to violate Holy Writ by killing disbelievers), such a revelation would be kinda devastating to their whole raison d'etre, no? So, who is it, again, who's desperately defending the idea that Man is more important than God?
RE:#59
PZ, I don't see what's so creepy about a parent being concerned about their child's emotional development and taking some initiative in helping her develop healthy romantic relationships. I have taught at a public high school that's right on the edge of suburbia and rural central Florida for 2 years now. I have had 4 students in my classes that were pregnant, 2 of which weren't even 16 yet. That there are teens that are making poor choices is a given, and I've seen a snapshot of some of the consequences of those poor choices.
Reading what he wrote, I was actually a little impressed by how he put things to his daughter. Rather than going into the whole sex = sin thing like you might expect someone religious to do, he put in terms much more likely to make his daughter really think about it. Granted, the whole ring thing was a bit over the top, and since I don't believe in Christianity, I don't agree with the 'gift from god' parts of his speech either.
But I do agree that sex carries with it emotional consequences that are best left to a more muture age, and high school aged students are generally not mature enough to truly appreciate the physical consequences either.
Now, if he showed the same kind of thoughtfullness and honesty in how he taught his students about science, I might actually respect him.
I lived in Longmont for several years. There's at least one semi-megachurch on the north side of town. It looks like the megachurch phenomena is poisoning another community. Get a couple of thousand wackos together in one spot a couple of times a week and they start to feed on each other's wackiness. It's a common psychological phenomena. Check out a football game sometime. The bigger the crowd the crazier they get.
It's fine to be concerned about a daughter's sexual health and to give her "the talk". What's deeply creepy is making an analogy between the father-daughter relationship and a future husband-wife relationship. When my daughter someday enters a deeply committed relationship with someone, she will not be trading me for her partner. I am not her boyfriend until some other guy comes along.
1. Hes not helping her develop healthy romantic relationships.
2. It reeks of inc*st.
...SciBlogs wouldnt let me use that word, so * it is.
You secular heathenists quit commenting on the DNA coil on the book cover. What you are viewing is CHRISTIAN DNA which, as any thinking person would know, is GODLY DNA and that is why it appears different from that of a MONKEY or secular humanist! In fact it is Dobson's own divine DNA semi-spiral being displayed.
Also mocking the fact that there were dinosaurs on the ark doesn't help your case one bit. Noah is not a Bibical hero for nothin' - have you ever SEEN what a pair of brontosauruses can shit in the period the ark was afloat? Now shoveling that much crap - still a Fundie mainstay - is an act of heroism. Do the math you unbelievers!
-Greg Forest
Hey Dr Poppe, nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. Tattoo it inside your eyelids.
I live in Longmont. It's a long way from Colorado Springs, but a 20-minute sprint from Boulder. The divide between the two couldn't be sharper.
This town embraces Wal-Mart, has a hometown paper that writes fluff pieces about kids being taught crap in public schools, and gladly throws all laws and regulations aside to accomodate the Lifebridge "mega-church" house o' bunco.
I'll tell you what is so great about God. He likes Dwarfs and Pirates. Heaven has a stripper factory and a beer volcano.
Ramen.
That is another issue in this story: where are the media? The Longmont newspaper obligingly pandered to Poppe by calling him "neutral" when he's anything but...I suspect it's a case of another town infected with bad journalism that is failing to do its job of throwing light on these subjects.
Ramen, Robster.
You can use that word and many others, but not in the text of a link.
Actually I see this as and end of Evolution-ID debate. If DNA structure of a given organism looks like the one on Poppes book cover, that organism was designed. If not, it evolved.
The only place an organism ever existed with the DNA illustrated on the cover of this alleged "textbook" is in a box of magnetix toys.
The "monkey to man" illustration, however WAS a seriously flawed oversimplification of the theory.
"Dr." Kenneth Poppe: Bring it on, secularists. Bring it on.
Will do. I for one will do everything in my power to stop you.
Colorado's demographics are changing rapidly. We have a Democratic governor, majority of U.S. Reps, and a Democratic state legislature, and one Democratic senator, and a probability of two senators come 2008. There are some holdouts--notable Colorado Springs, but that doesn't mean it will stay that way forever here in the Springs. As to creationists there are a lot of them here in the Springs, but being wrong just doesn't have legs. Eventually people figure out truth.
Regarding the Poppe "promise ring," I wonder how he would react if his daughter(s) told him she doesn't want to wear it. I'd love to see his reaction if his daughter, at 18 or 19, said "Dad, sorry but if I don't have sex I'm going to rip someone's fucking head off. I'm tense."
Well I guess Poppe's daughter had enough of that silly ring. She is selling it on eBay.
You godless homosexuals have no idea of what you speak when you mock our father-daughter virginity rituals.
If only you could be there, when Father demonstrates his holy, sanctioned-by-God, ownership of his daughter's hymen by gently placing the golden virginity ring just at the gateway to daughter's intact birth canal, only to be removed by Father (with Groom and at least three male relations witnessing, to confirm purity of goods exchanged) on that magical wedding day, when he turns ownership of said hymen over to the lucky groom!
Only then would you understand the turgid tense deliciousness of the holy bond between Father and his daughter's genitals.
Did you see the endorsements for his book?
Sheesh.
The population explosion in towns like Longmont are due to towns like it becoming bedroom communities for Boulder and even Denver. There seems to be less oversight and activism in such towns, not to excuse parents of Longmont for allowing Poppe to carry on.
Since PZ asked, let me tell you what's right about Colorado: the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study (BSCS), a non-profit in Colorado Springs (yes) dedicated to the advancement or rigorous, science-based biological study in schools. Any one of their evolution products would be a lovely gift for the Longmont Board of Education.
Okay, let's say he's right. It's Creationism, not evolutionism.
With the science that surrounds evolution, we can do all kinds of nifty things like cure the sick, make the blind see and even bring people who have drowned or been electrocuted or othersuch tragic occurances come back to life. We can create new forms of food (brussel sprouts, but don't hold that against science)and detect microscopic organisms that create plant blights and discover ways to cure them. The advances in science that can be attributed to the "theories" surrounding evolution are too numerous to mention.
So, now, turning our attention to Creationism. Uh, what exactly can you do with it?
Hmmmm.
That's what I thought.
David Marjanović wrote:
Well, read his books. They are available in plenty of libraries.
Well, you recommend me to read books from Dawkins. Maybe I would surprise you but I have read one of them. On the other hand you seems to be too lazy to read other stuff. Why don't you move a little and read something from Portmann, or Goethe (do not smile, his once by scientists ridiculed theory of color perception seems to be proved nowadays - we see color even if its frequency doesn't enter our eye at all! Goethe considerd this work more valuable as his literature achievement.). Portmann whose theories of evolution are based on Goethian principles introduced self-representation ("die Selbstdarstellung") as explanation of many phenomenons in living Nature. Idea is more complicated as to explain it here by few sentences - when my post would be deleted soon btw.
Try to read something else too.
VMartin
Longmont Colorado is also very close to Lafayette, both in Boulder County, and is the home of Victor Stenger, author of the recently released book "God, The Failed Hypothesis" and other books.
So take that Colorado bashers!
"I'm not afraid of your witchhunt.
Bring it on, secularists. Bring it on."
Christians love to believe that they are being persecuted for rightousness sake....they seek out persecution everywhere and anywhere.
Yes, a textbook example of your "Martyr Syndrome" sufferer.
RE:#78
PZ, I reread his letter a couple of times, since I just wasn't getting the vibe from it that you and a couple others seem to. The only place that seems to fit what you're saying is the ring ritual itself - giving the ring her father gave her to her 'first'. But I read this as being analagous the ritual of the father 'giving away' his daughter at her wedding. I suppose that ritual could be interpreted as sexist, but I don't think many would consider it creepy. Nothing he said struck me as comparing the father-daughter relationship to a romantic one in the way you interpret it. If I'm missing something, please point it out to me.
He's certainly said and done enough things wrong in his classroom that deserve being taken apart and exposed. I just don't think we need to read anything else odd into his behavior unless it's very clear that it's there.
If the notion that the god(s) had something to do with the creation of species, then it is certainly the case that she(they) had an incredible fondness for beetles and bacteria. If you deny that you must be either ignorant of biodiversity, Microbiology and Entomology or a blasphemer, doubting the work of the gods.
Why would the god(s) have spent so much time creating beetles and unicellular organisms and yet obviously far less time to only partially perfect the ability of most Homo sapiens to reason intelligently? Are bacteria or beetles the truly "chosen ones"?
No wonder god(s) are such useful sophistic devices. They permit the foolish and uneducated to explain everything and the even more foolish and uneducated to be comforted by such explanations.
Ironically, because they can be used to explain everything or anything, the notion of god(s) becomes useless to science. Unlike religion, science is a way of knowing, not a way of believing. It seems a shame that more time and energy isn't spent on clearly taeching students the difference. Once that is done, reasoning can begin. Without such understanding, its almost pointless to even begin to think about discussing science education.
Mr. Poppe,
I'm sure that, being the humble Christian that you are, you are completely unmoved by this article. While perhaps it seems rather faniciful that some people believe we 'evolved' from monkeys, is it not just a little odd to think that there is some invisible omnisicient being? Secondly, you said that you would like to title your new book "American Atheists: Revelation of the New Fascism." What a great and very Christian name. It's good to see that you practice what you preach. It's kinda weird, though, how you revel in this "hatred." Not to say that you 'hate' anyone, but that those who would have contrary views to your 'truth' are deemded 'fascists.' Dear sir, it would be in your own interest to read your treasured tome and think about the many examples of blind hatred and divinely inspired genocide . Honestly, should you want to help out your cause, it would be good to gain an understanding of your own holy text, and perhaps provide some good argument that explains the atrocities mentione therein. Please don't respond as viciously to my comment(as perhaps you have others), but rather attempt to clarify the Christian position. Nevertheless, I can't help but be disgusted by your ignorance, and therefore would like to make one comment: Get real. And by that, I mean get over your fairy tale. Surely it does not seem more plausible that there is an omnisicient and invisible God to whom we must attribute everything. Despite that, I appreciate the fact that you present both sides. Teach Darwinism, and, if so inclined, continue to teach creationism. I think everyone should be exposed to both views and allowed the chance to decide for themself.
Cheers,
Colorado Resident
3) The H-bonds are fucked up. I know these models are hard to make look like the real thing, which would have three "rungs" between A/T and two "rungs" between C/G, but to only put one "rung" after (not between) every two bases (not each one, at the very least) bothers me more than anything else. I don't know why.
Posted by: Daniel Morgan | March 24, 2007 07:39 AM
uuuhhh...
...not trying to be snarky here, but aren't the hydrogen bonds A/T (2) and C/G (3)?
i'm just sayin'...(p.s.-i linked over from the nice folks at crooksandliars.com, and have to say that i love this site. bravo!)
And lets just check in on Texas.
"Still, it's enough to set the world a-spinning that the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, the most powerful committee in the House, distributed to legislators a memo pitching crazed wingers who believe the earth stands still -- doesn't spin on its axis or revolve around the Sun -- that Copernicus was part of a Jewish conspiracy to undermine the Old Testament."
(Got this one at Daily Kos)
There are a lot of unanswered questions about evolution, but wasn't the earth revolving around the sun question put to bed about 400 years ago?
P.S. The best thing about God is that he thinks I'm always right.
My family has been in Colorado since 1879 - not as long as native Americans or Hispanics who are really Colorado natives - but we still take every opportunity to lord it over the legions of newcomers. Most seem to have never studied Colorado's history or have forgotten it. This was once a fairly liberal state. Not that long ago (1972) we did something unthinkable: we voted NO on hostiing the winter Olympics, fearing their presence would undermine our quality of life. There are countless other great examples of liberalism in Colorado. Sadly we're now in a conservative period, but recent events make me hopeful we're emerging from that period.
So don't ask what's wrong with the entire state of Colorado when the question should be directed to Longmont specifically.
I've lived in Colorado Springs for 35 years and while it has very definitly been taken over by the religious right at least half of the people living there are just normal people who have no idea how the God Nazi's took the place over.
It's still a beautiful place, but it is filled with ugly people.
No doubt about it, that DNA was designed. At least he got the chirality right.
quork:
The No-No Words don't work for me either in link text or otherwise. So far, I've found that the list includes Prozac, Xanax, incest and soma. Hmm, let's try Cialis. Huh, oddly enough, that one works without HTML trickery. What about Viagra? Nope, trickery required for that one too.
Mr. Poope is a sterling example of why there is such a strong overlap between creationism (and the associated practices) and child abuse.
Can you imagine a teacher ... of any subject ... with this attitude? It is astounding!
As long as the poop-man is teaching in a public school, we can at least be assured that he is not Home Schooling any poor innocent ones at home.
(Oh, by the way, only kidding with the name ... it's me, Greg Laden...)
that greg is such a trickster
Let's hope he goes to the DI. It would be nice to have all our nuts in one basket.
Not only.
ROTFL! I spend just about all my spare time reading. I've read only one of Dawkins' books (Unweaving the Rainbow).
Evidence, please.
I have read Goethe's color theory. It's nonsense. He wanted to believe that white was a pure color, so he believed that white was a pure color and not a mixture of colors. Goethe's judgment notwithstanding, his color theory is a literary achievement, not a scientific one.
On the other hand, he discovered the human premaxillary bone (we have it fused to the maxilla, unlike most other vertebrates; before him this was considered a difference between "man" and "animals") and postulated that sepals, petals, stamina and carpels are modified leaves (recently confirmed by developmentary genetics). Very interesting as history of science.
That sounds like metaphysics, not like science. Could you explain?
Hey Greg,
Cool it with the impersonations, Hon. If you miss me and want my "reasonable" opinions, just stop by and ask me to come play for a while.
Later...
He was clear that he wasn't you.
We recognize your babbling easily.
This fits perfectly well within the traditional, Newton–Huygens–Maxwell–quantum theory of light. It's the unfortunate consequence of seeing with a set of three color pigments, instead of a spectrometer.
You know, the funny thing, it wasn't me. It was "cv" pretending to be me antagonizing Forthekids.
Oh, and this is Greg pretending to be a guppy. They eat their young, I know because I seen 'em doin it.
Yes, Ken Poppe: the lesson is>>you are being indecent with children.And, yopu should stop it.
But really, re: fathers being perverse, and focused on daughters vaginas: is he or the virgin cult or any other of these fruit loops any worse than the communal bathers amongst the feminists? Or the pagan mid wife homeschooler types who spend their time propagating more midwifes, starting at 'too much information' to young daughters,shaming their sons for being male, and focusing the daughters of others, on vaginas?
Or is he more perverse than the mothers who insist on showing their daughters where their clitoris is at, because it is gher 'birhtright' to have orgasms ( at five years old??!!) These folks don't always eat their young, sometimes they just snack on them,for a really long time, and then they snack on the kids that fall out of them too, just like Ken;-)
or is Ken Poppe and the loony daughters hymen watchers to blame for the state of affairs that continues to overlook females who abuse little boys, as well as daughters? I mean, this sort of abuse is way minimized, and way way way way (like WAY) underexamined, unless it is extreme and MORE perverse than male behavior....
BABY IS EMASCULATED;MOTHER BLAMES DOG
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_re_us/mutilated_infant;_ylt=A…
or is Ken Poppe and the loony daughters hymen watchers to blame for the state of affairs that continues to overlook females who abuse little boys, as well as daughters? I mean, this sort of abuse is way minimized, and way way way way (like WAY) underexamined, unless it is extreme and MORE perverse than male behavior....
BABY IS EMASCULATED;MOTHER BLAMES DOG
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_re_us/mutilated_infant;_ylt=A…
Earl. You're being a bit creepy.
Then, as each encounter takes
away another piece of the girl's heart, she is soon no longer fit for a
mature relationship when one comes along.
-------------------
Well here is an explanation as to why this could happen:
Because in this setting, if you have sex, you are a SLUT!!! You dare not tell anyone the truth because if you do the guy will drop your dirty ass. And If you buy into this, there is no way out.
The girl is made to give her baby up for adoption if there is an out of wedlock pregnancy. (yes even today!!) In one church school setting six years ago, a young pregnant girl was made to apologize to the school population and confess her sin. Do you think she is going to have any chance of turning out normal? I just confirmed this for a third time last nite- it is now five people who have told me this story. It is disgusting.
To be more concerned about family shame than anything is so Taliban like it is gross. To buy off a kid with jewellry is almost as fucked as advising your kid against reading.
If god doesn't want them to be pregnant, why does she make them fertile?
Has it occurred to anyone that the person posting messages here as "Dr. Kenneth Poppe" might not actually be Dr. Kenneth Poppe?
Yes.
You Darwinists have twisted God's beautiful genetic heritage, and Dr. Poppe has put it back on the straight and narrow. Now it's a chute to heaven, not a serpent of knowledge of good and evil. We're taking the Hel out of helix.
Take the Fel out of Felix while you're at it.
i was in ken poppe's class as a student and he didnt corrupt us he just gave us a different theory to keep in mind and rarely ever did he even bring up this subject. i think ken poppe is a great man and just because the school district says some thing different doesnt mean its true because in my opinion the school district is corrupt and blows the smallest thing out of porpotion just like this story
I'm not a stickler for punctuation, but GOD DAMN. There are several keys on your keyboard that aren't letters. They're there for a reason.
Excuse me, isn't it obvious from his 2nd post that we are dealing with a parody? I mean, that post begins with an atheist argument and contains several more. That's not like Margulis' HIV denial.
This guy, on the other hand...
How many supporters of Davison are there? I only know two: you, and Davison himself. If I wouldn't read Pharyngula, I would now know of Davison's existence or of his ignorant ideas.
Well, read his books. They are available in plenty of libraries.
Should we be impressed? Do you think we all fall to our knees when we hear the word "professor"? The ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy. Tell me what he said, not who said it, because who said it doesn't matter.
Not only.
ROTFL! I spend just about all my spare time reading. I've read only one of Dawkins' books (Unweaving the Rainbow).
Evidence, please.
I have read Goethe's color theory. It's nonsense. He wanted to believe that white was a pure color, so he believed that white was a pure color and not a mixture of colors. Goethe's judgment notwithstanding, his color theory is a literary achievement, not a scientific one.
On the other hand, he discovered the human premaxillary bone (we have it fused to the maxilla, unlike most other vertebrates; before him this was considered a difference between "man" and "animals") and postulated that sepals, petals, stamina and carpels are modified leaves (recently confirmed by developmentary genetics). Very interesting as history of science.
That sounds like metaphysics, not like science. Could you explain?