Compact Fluorescent Lights are gonna kill you … NOT.

People can be amazingly dumb, that's for sure.

As for the CFLs, I've got to mention how terrific they are-- I installed them in every socket where I previously has an incandescent bulb. I'm on a very tight budget, so I already paid quite a bit of attention to having unnecessary lights on. However, I managed to find two-packs of bulbs at a local closeout/bargain store-- very cheap!

I noticed a significant drop in my electric useage following the switch to these bulbs, I definitely recommend them to everyone.

Oh noes!!!111!!! Teh mercurry!!

Won't someone think of the children???

etc...

I've installed CFL bulbs all around our house too. And I think they have made a huge impact on our electric bill without many downsides (one would be that a cold CFL bulb takes a little time to get to it's specified brightness).

We, too, have installed CFLs in every socket in the house that we would put one into.

Wonderful stuff. except when I have to call Ghost Busters to clean them up.

one would be that a cold CFL bulb takes a little time to get to it's specified brightness

Yeah, I've noticed this too. Oddly, it only seems to start happening after the bulb's been installed for a few days.

In general, we love our CFL's. We replaced almost all of our bulbs in January when the power companies here in Illinois decided to double (or triple) our electric rates. And yes, in combination with my obsessive extinguishing of lights, we too have seen a significant drop in energy usage.

My only gripe is that, of the five I put in the vanity fixture in the bathroom, two are already dead! After three months! I figured it must be the high humidity, but hello -- if you're going to make vanity bulbs, wouldn't you make them so that they can handle high humidity? Not many people have low-humidity backstage dressing rooms with vanity fixtures in our houses...

I use nothing but CFLs.

Of course, while installing my new chandelier, one rolled off the table and broke a few days ago.

And all day today I've had a low-grade headache! I'm doomed.

#2
You mean CFLs cause autism?

Ok, I have installed them in every socket in my home and have seen a marked reduction in my electric bill as well.

However if you are willing to invest a bit more up front check out what is available in LED lights, output in lumens has been going up and prices are starting to come down. Not quite there yet for my budget but certainly something to keep an eye on.

PZ,

You're absolutely right: Milloy HAS argued that mercury from coal plants is A-OK: link.

(Link courtesy of denialism.com)

That Milloy, what a card. He makes no secret of being a shameless industry shill, and I'm glad the Cato Institute keeps him around. Without him, there's the frightening possibility that more people might think of them as a respectable intellectual institution.

Is there any truth that CFLs bulb last longer than incandescent ones or the eight years that they are supposed to last?

While I am a supporter of CFL's and agree this is an over-reaction, they still did not explain what one should do about a broken bulb that lands on deep pile carpeting. You can't brush it up and then wipe with paper towels. If you can't use a vacuum, then what? Replace the carpet? This could well get you back up into the thousands of dollars cost.

#4 Frank Anderson:

Did you save the packaging? I save my CFL packaging and keep it with my important paperwork, given that they generally have either a five-year or a lifetime warranty (I'm not near my paperwork drawer at the moment); you might want to call the manufacturer about it. You may have gotten a defective batch of bulbs.

They're not being bought.
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070501/BIZ/7050…

The BEST CFLs:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/home_improvement/4215199.h…

SteveM says

While I am a supporter of CFL's and agree this is an over-reaction, they still did not explain what one should do about a broken bulb that lands on deep pile carpeting. You can't brush it up and then wipe with paper towels. If you can't use a vacuum, then what?

What else...DUCT TAPE!

"Is there any truth that CFLs bulb last longer than incandescent ones or the eight years that they are supposed to last."

ive had mine since 1999 so that's NOT an exaggeration of how long they last .....and for that person with the vanity light problem, mine specifally said that they can't be used in high moisture areas like bathrooms

i like light and i really loved having a nightlight-based electric bill with adequate lighting and ive been going around for years telling people that they really NEED to understand their junior high school physics

Is there any truth that CFLs bulb last longer than incandescent ones or the eight years that they are supposed to last?

In my experience, they either fail almost immediately or ... well, I've never actually had to replace one that's lasted longer than a week. Get back with me in another couple of years. :)

While I am a supporter of CFL's and agree this is an over-reaction, they still did not explain what one should do about a broken bulb that lands on deep pile carpeting.

I suspect the answer there might very well be "cut out the area of contaminated carpet and replace". On the other hand, deep pile carpet would be the place that these bulbs would be least likely to break.

oh yeah, they call it middle school now (getting older is so much fun especially when you have to learn another dialect )

specifally/specifically...well, one of these days ill learn how to type ...umm, maybe not

Is the mercury in the ballast or the tube? Where exactly is it located?

It must not be that big a deal because office buildings and stores have used huge florescent bulbs for years.

We have the bulbs in our home, and my only concern is that my two boys are in those rough housing years and they've been known to break lamps and light bulbs. In fact, I think we broke one of those bulbs some time back, but I had no idea they had mercury in them.

I also have replaced all the incandescent lights except in the bathrooms with CFLs. I IMMEDIATELY noticed the electric bills going down. I also IMMEDIATELY noticed increasing skin problems... CFLs and Lupus are apparently NOT a good combination. I also have a friend with seizure disorders who has been told to keep away from fluorescent lighting... I wonder, when places like Australia want to replace ALL bulbs with CFLs, how this will impact people with certain health concerns.

Who are these idiots who can't screw in a lightbulb without breaking it? They are as dumb as creationists. Oh wait, they ARE creationists.

How many creationists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
It depends if its incandescent or cfl.

Hey look what I just found out at netscape...

"the book of revelations was the result of Ergot poisoning, which is the chemical LSD was based on, and was also responsible for the salem witch burnings (the "witches" were victims of ergot poisoning and thus seemed "possessed" by the rabid christian extremists known as Puritans)"

You can call Milloy whatever you want, but the fact remains that he's a pretty sharp guy. I'd listen to someone who can backup an argument with facts before I'd listen to some politician/celebrity-wannabe like Al Gore.

You think CFL's are going to make a big difference? I have a friend in Nigeria who's looking for help moving some money out of his country, can you help him out?

A - Milloy is like the George W. Bush of science. He will spew whatever conclusion supports his ideology, without regard to actual facts or self-consistency.

B - As a suggestion, when changing CFLs, you might want to reduce the risk by placing a large plastic bin (maybe with an old pillow in it) beneath the fixture while you're working, especially if it's over a carpeted floor.

I call him a dishonest idiot, Nathan. And what a coincidence- that's exactly what I call YOU, troll! How about that.

Yes, CFLs can last much longer. So long, in fact, that you may need to replace them just because the phosphors have degraded to the point that light output is much lower and/or shifted to an undesirable spectrum. This is a typical problem for advanced aquarium lighting. Fancy saltwater aquaria with light-loving corals need bright light at specific spectra, and high-output CFLs with electronic ballasts do the job nicely. But the aquarium will visibly suffer if the bulbs begin to wear out and aren't changed.

Not to start a fight (it's a hot topic here), but the Illinois rate hike isn't just some whim. The local utilities have been under a 10-year rate freeze that began with a rate rollback. So yeah, they probably do need to hike rates more than a little, especially as some of the utilities want new generating units. But the companies decided to just drop massive hikes in one lump for some reason (AWESOME PR move!), the legislature can't quit bickering and power-struggling long enough to reach some solution, and we're heading into the summer...

Milloy is a "celebrity wannabe." He has no actual credentials to back up any of his bullshit, and has never done a real day's work in his life. And he's certainly not "sharp." He's a moron even compared to other eco-denialists. He's stupid enough to even believe in a "Loose Change"-style 9/11 hidden conspiracy.

Immediately after 9/11 he published an article saying one of the towers fell before the other because eeeeeeeeeevil environmentalists had taken all the asbestos out of one of them but only some of it out of the other. To back it up he cited an anonymous source who cited another anonymous source claiming to have been one of the original WTC contractors with a story of an eeeeeeeeeeevil enviro shakedown. And then like 3 days later Guy Tozzoli, the civil engineer in charge of the entire WTC project, goes on the record that there had never been any asbestos in either tower. Of course, there have never been any lab tests to determine the effectiveness of asbestos versus the temperatures reached by burning jet fuel, but when you're a posturing nobody like Milloy, neither evidence nor logic are needed--Exxon will pay you anyway.

I love how skepticism is welcomed when it challenges a theory dismissed by certain scientists (ID, medical-woo, etc.) but when it questions a sacred cow (e.g. evidence on DDT's impact on bald eagles), everyone demonizes the skeptic and ignores the evidence.

dorid wrote:

I also IMMEDIATELY noticed increasing skin problems... CFLs and Lupus are apparently NOT a good combination. I also have a friend with seizure disorders who has been told to keep away from fluorescent lighting...

I can't think of any plausible link between fluorescent lights and skin problems. Did you find that explained somewhere, or is it just a correlation you noticed? The reason I ask is that evaluation of something like skin problems and seizures is pretty subjective, plus correlating it to changes in things around you is not really possible without a large statistical set of data.

Nathan wrote:

I'd listen to someone who can backup an argument with facts before I'd listen to some politician/celebrity-wannabe like Al Gore.

The calculation for how much energy the lights will save is trivially easy to do. Have you done that yourself?

dorid, i suspect the problems you mention may become a driver for LED-based lighting in years to come. LED "bulbs" are still too expensive for serious use, but that technology has been developing very rapidly the last few years, and might come to rival fluorescents in the intermediate future.

the pocket flashlight i carry is already a LED unit, and i wouldn't have any other kind of light for that type of application any longer. (anybody who's still got a two-AA mini-maglite rolling around in a drawer somewhere, be on notice those things might as well be old-style oil lamps compared to real flashlights now.) it's only about a year old, but already obsolete; new models provide more light and more flexibility at the same power drain and price point by now.

Is there any truth that CFLs bulb last longer than incandescent ones or the eight years that they are supposed to last?

I can add another anecdote to that (yes, the plural is not data but it does back up the industry's researched claims). I haven't replaced a single CFL since I purchased them in 2000. One of them, a candelabra 3 watt, burns from dusk to dawn as the first floor standby light and accent. One other averages dark until bedtime every night in my study--an average of five hours a day.

Years ago, when it seemed like fun, I signed up for Milloy's 'Junk Science' newsletter. After a while, it became particularly glaring that every single one of his 'news' references were links through to foxnews.com. Not having any clue (after all; he never said) that he was paid by said Pretend Cable News Network, I wrote him a little email to the effect of:

"Finding your email very interesting. However, can't help but notice that you keep using the ridiculous Fox News as your main source of citation for wider details than come with the newsletter. Don't you think you'd advance your cause a bit better if you used a more credible - or at least, less laughable - source?"

Delightfully, I just never received any more emails. I soon dug around and found the Milloy-"Faux News" link soon enough, but it's always just amused me that he never even pretended to defend himself - or even respond. He just deletes me from the "To:" field, and continues on his way.

The only reason I can think of for not using a vacuum cleaner to clean up a broken bulb is because the glass might cut the vacuum cleaner bag or dust filter. Since I value uncut feet more than an uncut vacuum cleaner I wouldn't have much compunction about employing it to clean up the mess.

Oh no! Maybe the autism outbreak in this country is caused by CFLs!!!!

Nathan, you tool, if everyone used less power and the power plants had to burn less fuel there would be no effect on mercury levels in the air?

I live in brroklyn, I have a lovely bridge for you to purchase.

#18: "Is the mercury in the ballast or the tube?"

In the tube. (Too much information here.) But the amount in CFLs is truly miniscule. Waaaaay less than the amount you played with when you were a kid. Personally, if I broke one on carpet, I'd vacuum it. I tolerate much larger risks than that just living my normal life.

Presumably, the vacuum would help vaporize any liquid mercury present (unlikely since it's all vapor in the bulbs, IIRC) and would just help spread the vapor throughout the room/home, since all the air it sucks in one end is vented out the other.

And it's absolutely FASCINATING that a post demolishing Milloy with crystal clarity has attracted fans attempting to defend him, albeit in an indirect, stone-throwing fashion.

I got a little LED flashlight, and I simply can't get used to the quality/color of the light. I can't stand it. Perhaps I'm just an old fogey.
In a similar vein, I despise the new car headlights - xenon, I think? There's a case of too much being a bad thing. My eyes are really astigmatic, and those things completely blind me when a car's coming at me from the other direction at night.

We tried using compact fluorescents, but had to switch back to incandescants. Like their larger cousins, they buzz at a particularly annoying frequency.

If a CFL breaks in your home, open nearby windows to disperse any vapor that may escape, carefully sweep up the fragments (do not use your hands) and wipe the area with a disposable paper towel to remove all glass fragments. Do not use a vacuum.

That's just dumb. You're not going to get glass shards out of a shag carpet with paper towels. Evidently the guy at the EPA who wrote this does not do the vacuuming.

Of course, the original story, which had a CFL break on falling into a shag carpet, is completely implausible.

There is a difference between flourescent and incandescent lamps that could explain the problem with lupus sufferers: flourescent lamps put out a fair amount of ultraviolet light. I don't know enough about lupus to know if UV is a trigger.

The reason you don't use a vacuum cleaner for this is that vacuum cleaners stir up the material and spew the vapors into the air, making it more likely that you'll breathe in mercury.

Posted by: Nathan | May 1, 2007 09:40 AM

You can call Milloy whatever you want, but the fact remains that he's a pretty sharp guy. I'd listen to someone who can backup an argument with facts before I'd listen to some politician/celebrity-wannabe like Al Gore

Gore listens to scientists and delivers a consistent, stable, scientifically validated opinion. Milloy listens to strange men who dysfunctional ideologies, or perhaps voices in his head, and speaks to wherever the money tells him to go, like any pet dog.

I'll go with Gore.

You think CFL's are going to make a big difference?

Considering how much my electric bill dropped when I put them in, yes. I have the empirical results - over a 25% savings in energy usage from last year to this.

I have a friend in Nigeria who's looking for help moving some money out of his country, can you help him out?

Another 429er?

Allen R:

The buzzing should depend on the lamp. Old-school magnetic ballasts (which I THINK many of the spiral CFLs still use?) are prone to the classic buzzing and flicker introduced by our alternating current. I'm not a REAL expert, but as I recall they buzz and flicker at 120hz instead of 60, something to do with the way they work. Perhaps this could affect someone prone to epileptic seizures, too, as someone mentioned above.

Electronic ballasts won't do this, because they ramp the frequency way up. If they still buzz or flicker, it doesn't appear to be audible/visible. Electronic ballasts are much lighter, and pretty much nicer all-around, but are a lot more expensive.

Here's a possible solution to the broken CFL - use a shop vacuum with an extra hose to vent it out the nearest window. The glass and liquid Hg get retained in the vacuum, the vapour gets distributed outside. It will cost a little to get an extra hose, but not $2000.00.

I replaced most of the incandescants in my house years ago, and have been slowly filling in the gaps as more technology became available. For example, it is only recently that tri-light and dimmable CFL's have been easy to find on the market. And for those of us with pot-lights as I have in the finished basement areas, well there are still few options out there.

Although, truth be told, up here in Canada for about 8 months of the year it is really not as clear-cut as to the energy savings realized. The energy lost to heat from incandescants is not wasted when you are also paying to heat your house. Not that a lightbulb generates heat as efficiently as a good furnace, but it is still not 100% wasted energy that must then be also counteracted by increased air conditioning costs - except for a few months of the year where longer days take care of much of that by cutting back on lighting requirements.

In southern areas, though, this is a double-cost issue year round.

Nor does this justify the sort of bad science represented by that article.

The EPA agrees with what PZ said above re: using a vacuum to clean up mercury spills. See http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/mercury/faq/spills.htm

I would happily switch to CFLs, but my wife's migraines are in part triggered by flickering fluorescents (even if you can't see them flicker, she can), and certainly exacerbated by them. Instead, I swapped out most of the light switches with dimmers, which also cut electricity use, increase bulb life, etc, but are not compatible with CFLs or LEDs. Where we had a ceiling fan with lights, I installed a remote switch, which lets me dim the lights and change the fan speed from the wall switch. A bit more difficult to install, but talk about nice... When LEDs become inexpensive enough to install, they will go in all the non-dimmer switches, as they do not cause my wife any problems.

Also, I suspect that a reason you wouldn't want to use a vacuum is that it just wouldn't be very effective on liquid mercury intertwined with carpet fibers.

On a flat surface, using one of those little mercury-vacuum spill kits is doable. Stuck in thick carpet or fabric? That's not so easy.

Yep, CFLs save a lot of money. We put them in years ago. Recently we added separate low-blue CFLs and amber LEDs, for lighting after 8pm. Consider this when you are first going to CFLs, if you're new to them.

Why avoid blue? YMMV; this sort of study convinced us to try it;
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?sourceid=Mozilla-search&q=%22blue+lig…
For us, the result was immediate, and dramatic, in terms of improved sleep.

We and our doctor had just thought, the last decade or so, well, old people don't sleep well. Nope, it was the CFLs we were using, with high blue light peaks in the spectra.
I've used CFLs as long as they've been available, an early adopter of such.

Credit to this article for starting me thinking:
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060527/bob9.asp
Science News Online, May 27, 2006; Vol. 169, No. 21 -- Janet Raloff
Light Impacts--Hue and timing determine whether rays are beneficial or detrimental

This is not a reason to avoid CFLs, but to consider which ones you use at what time of day.

Standard CFLs emit enough blue to keep the biological clock's countdown timer stopped. The countdown starts after you stop seeing blue light; a few hours later, you get sleepy.
The "mind wide awake" problem turned out, for us, to be mostly due to our CFLs.

So we switched to low blue lights in evening hours and the problem's solved.

You can look the science up; and of course YMMV.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?sourceid=Mozilla-search&q=%22blue+lig…

We like these GE "Post light bug light" CFLs, after 8pm. They filter out almost all of the blue light emitted; not quite all of it, so color vision is still good, and the light's a warm white, not the stark yellow of the incandescent or yellow-coil-CFL buglights:

http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/eighth/gecflbl.gif

Compare that to any typical fluorescent (CFL, tube, warm, cool); all emit a lot of blue:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/n-vcfl1.gif
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/n-vcfl2.gif
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/syl3500k.gif
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/loacfl1.gif
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/tricfl1.gif

And don't forget the laptop and TV:

A typical extremely yellow "coil type" CFL, for comparison, no blue at all:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/seventh/cflbl2.gif

We do use some LEDs---wildlife-safe amber, for late evening light (plenty bright, and yet they cause no interference with sleep at all); the ones from Lighting Science Corp. are the best I've found so far: http://store.lsgc.com/Wildlife-Friendly-C14.aspx
They're among those listed on this page
http://myfwc.com/seaturtle/WildlifeLighting/index.htm

Good pointers generally here to the physiology and behavioral effects:
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2007/03/12/light-and-dark/

I put a lot of pointers in comments on that page; one thought:

There's debate whether NO or LOW blue light is better, among for example cataract replacement lens researchers; some may be important (one search merely as an example):

http://www.google.com/search?q=cataract+IOL+%22blue+light%22+mental+ale…

P.S., mercury spill? Powdered zinc (filings off a new penny will do) makes an amalgam that's solid, sweep that up carefully. Search Google for more description on that.

The "asbestos would have saved the twin towers" line is mind numbingly stupid. What they always conveniently forget to mention is that the impact/explosion of the planes would have blown off any protective covering that had been applied.

That's kind of like when Steven Milloy forgets to mention that he is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the various industries he is shilling for. The man is a transparent joke(so of course he works for Fox News).

Another note: I LOVE LEDs, but it's true that they aren't quite ready for primetime in the home lighting arena. But they're close, and you can buy full-brightness incandescent-replacement bulbs today without getting a second mortgage. Quality might be iffy, especially in the consistency of phosphor color (early and/or cheapie white LEDs sucked, described by a prominent online LED fanatic as "rotten-dog-urine green") and the efficiency may not yet beat CFL, but they're out there.

A warning about LEDs for those worried about flicker: Some LEDs flicker, too. They don't HAVE to, but for various reasons they are sometimes wired to deliberately flicker. The Eternalight flashlight used this as a means of offering variable brightness, and many car LED taillights flicker, most noticeable out of the corner of your eye. Cadillac seems to be the worst offender there. I've often wondered why they did this given epileptics' known susceptability...can't epileptics still drive depending on meds or evaluation or something like that?

Wow - it's really something when somebody hates the damn hippies so much they're prepared to stick with an obsolete technology just to spite 'em!

"How many creationists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

Only one - haven't you ever heard of Immaculate Conception?

Wow, people have blue-light responses too? Wonder if it's the same genes plants use... :)

By my reckoning there should be just enough liquid mercury in the bulb to maintain the the saturated mercury vapor pressure of 0.00185 torr (or a little higher since the bulb operates at higher than room temperature). Any more than that is essentially wasted. Thus, when the bulb breaks almost all of the available mercury is already vaporized. There should be no significant mercury in the carpet to clean up.

Notably, the EPA does not even seem to list florescent lights as one of the possible contamination sources. My recollection from my days in the US Navy (the most annoyingly environmentally-friendly service in the govt if you ignore active sonar) was that you cannot throw out too many florescent bulbs at one time. Actually, since that is impossible to enforce, the supply department on my last ship ran a "bulb exchange" program and then turned them in en mass for safe disposal, but this was like 200 six-foot-long florescent bulbs at one time.

I have had CFL that have blown after just a few days. Led is the way of the future - way way more efficient than CFL, no mercury as far as I know - steady light (unless you buy the wrong ones). Pity they are not really made commercially for houses yet. We are beginning ot find them in the marine industry, but you still have to search for the good ones. The ones I got came with a ten year warranty (try that with a CFL) the web page on the packing is: www.seasense.com

Led is the way of the future - way way more efficient than CFL

Again, I'm not a lighting master (more a sophomore in the classic definition) but I'm pretty sure this is a misunderstanding based on white LEDs' theoretical efficiencies vs. their actual efficiencies. LED manufacturers haven't done much if anything to explain this, and some have probably encouraged it. They're improving rapidly, but (again) I'm pretty sure white LEDs can but do not yet exceed most fluorescents in efficiency.

Thanks for explaining why I shouldn't vacuum a broken bulb. However, in Australia our bulbs release the same sort of mercury as coal power stations do, so I should be safe.

"When industry dumps mercury into the environment, he says there's no research to show any sort of health effect. When conservation efforts implement a bulb that uses trace amounts of mercury, he starts talking about brain damage and calls it one of the most poisonous forms of pollution."

Well, that's because it's all just dumb animals out there in the envarnament, who cares about them?

Do any of the LED proponents out there know if they're working on the color temperature of those lights before they put them into production for homes? All the LED bulbs I've seen put off a really cold blue light.

The reason you don't use a vacuum cleaner for this is that vacuum cleaners stir up the material and spew the vapors into the air, making it more likely that you'll breathe in mercury.

Yes, I fully understand that. However, given the choice between not lifting mercury, and lifting it with a vacuum cleaner, it's far better to use a vacuum cleaner. Just open the windows and doors while you're vacuuming, and, most importantly, empty the bag afterwards so you aren't blowing air through the droplets for the next two months.

In most of the documented cases of chronic mercury poisoning due to spillage, exposure was to mercury, at standard vapor pressure or below, for weeks or months. What is hazardous is not short-term exposure during the cleanup, it's living with mercury long-term.

I would expect that posters here have a quick appreciation of new tech & saving $. Here, near the Southern border, the AC has to haul that heat outside during the summer.
The Hg will just have to be managed thru a recycling & recovery habit. That Zn/Cu amalgam seems sensible.

Milloy is a shameless industry shill, who will say anything for a buck. He's a global warming denier known to be in the pocket of the energy utilities, so it doesn't surprise me to find him scare-mongering about low-power lighting. His masters don't want you using less electricity.

Mercury in the environment is harmless? Isn't this year the tenth anniversary of Karen Wetterhahn's decidedly horrible death from mercury poisoning?

Do any of the LED proponents out there know if they're working on the color temperature of those lights before they put them into production for homes? All the LED bulbs I've seen put off a really cold blue light.

Yes, they are. Ironically that "cold blue" is an improvement over the "rotten-dog-urine green," but there are further improvements. It's mainly just a case of finding the right phosphor mix. You can get white LEDs at deliberately different color temperatures now, favoring blue, yellow or pink, though there's plenty of room for further development.

Quick relevant LED fact for those who aren't familiar: LEDs emit light of just one or a few wavelengths, and as such they're great for making cheap lasers. But blue-wavelength LEDs have been an unattainable "holy grail" for years and years. Several years ago, an obscure Japanese researcher made a breakthrough, and viola, stable blue LEDs, making cheap blue lasers (and the correspondingly greater CD data storage they enable) feasible. As a side bonus, this new generation of LEDs was very bright, making them more feasible for lighting.

Anyway, this is relevant because white LEDs aren't. They're blue. They're just doped-up with a lot of fluorescent-style phosphors to make them emit a broad spectrum of light. The blue light excites the phosphors, which then spit out light of various colors. Hence the bluish cast to many white LEDs. Look closely at a white LED and a colored LED (while they're off) and you'll notice that the colored one looks like it has a tiny microchip inside, which is the emitter. The white one has a dollop of yellow-ish phosphor covering the emitter.

Partly because phosphors degrade, and partly because emitters also degrade, white LEDs will tend to dim and shift spectrum over time just as fluorescents do.

Do CFL's last longer? Not if they are sideways or in poorly vented housings.

My overhead fixtures kill CFL's.

I think we've replaced almost every feasible bulb in the house with CFLs now. No breakage so far -- but if we did, we have the advantage of a central vacuum, with the unit located in the garage (isolated from the house air; easily ventilated to outdoors).

However, I do have some concerns about the drive to banning incandescents, as the CF technology isn't quite there yet for some applications. For eg. I recently replaced two exterior fixtures with light & motion sensing ones -- ie. they turn on only when it's dark AND someone pulls in the driveway, or walks into the porch, and then only stay on for a minute. A 60w incandescent operating for a few minutes as needed is way more efficient than a 15w CF that is left on all evening. Since the fixtures are electronic, they would presumably require the more expensive dimmable CFs -- but will these work in the cold? And the dimmables don't work everywhere either: I also replaced an interior hallway lightswitch with a sensor switch -- but if I use (dimmable) CFs there, they flicker. Apparently, whatever waveform that switch is putting out is not the same as a regular dimmer, and the CF's electronics don't like it. So, it's back to incandescents for that hallway.

Is there any truth that CFLs bulb last longer than incandescent ones or the eight years that they are supposed to last?

I've been using them since c.1990 (and exclusively since c.1994). None have failed. 15+ years and still going strong...!

I've never broken one, and admit the presence of mercury hadn't even crossed my mind. And, had I broken one, I probably would have vacuumed it up. So the advice to not do so, and to ventilate the area, is both news to me and seems quite sensible. Thanks!

I've installed as many CFLs as I can, but there are still a few problems:

1) The chandelier with the compact bases and the dimmer;

2) The vanity lights attached to the dimmer;

3) Longevity, which never works out to whatever the package says it will.

I tried putting in some dimmable CFLs a few years ago; made a leap of faith and ordered about 6 of them. Extremely noisy. They were never going to work in a vanity; it would have sounded like the neon sign at a travelling carnival.

The best bulbs I found were some Panasonic bulbs. I have had those in at least 5 years. They were expensive, though.

I found lots of information on the mercury content of a variety of items here:

http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/loader.cfm?url=/commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&…

I have used Zn dust to clean up Hg spills in my lab. Metallic Hg is not too dangerous except for the vapor, and thats not a problem when the Hg is amalgamated with zinc. I guess this doesn't help the average non-scientist, though you can buy 15 grams for less than 4 dollars at http://www.hometrainingtools.com .

I read that there might be as little as 4-5 mg of Hg in a typical CFL. Considering Hg's density of 13.6g/cm^3, I calculate (feel free to check the math) that this would be a ball about 4mm in diameter for 5 mg, I guess sort of like a BB.

I don't know that a shattered CFL's Hg would all be vaporized. I am in an industrial lab with a responsible Hg disposal policy, and I am curious to find out, so I will do the experiment and post the results.

mine specifally said that they can't be used in high moisture areas like bathrooms

Do CFL's last longer? Not if they are sideways or in poorly vented housings.

I have sideways mounted CFLs in two bathrooms. The bulbs have lasted for close to ten years. Perhaps the old ones were less prone to these problems?

For those nay-sayers among you, remember this -- when CFLs become truly common, the technology will move much faster because the market is bigger and more competitive. The same goes for LEDs. If we start to take energy efficient technologies seriously, we will see big gains very quickly.

fyi, what kills incandescent lights is almost always the current surge during start-up. Over time and with many on/off cycles, the tungsten in the filament literally redistributes itself (see here for a cool "after"-image), so that ultimately the current exceeds the carrying capacity of the thinnest part of the filament, and it acts like a fuse. The reason why halogens (especially bromine) were added to the design is that halogens slow down the rate at which the tungsten redeposits.
If you never turned off the incandescent, it would last for years and years. There's a light bulb in Livermore, CA, that's been burning for over 100 years.

What if you could verify that your power came from non-coal sources like wind or nuclear? Would it then be better to use incandescent lighting? Or should we just wait for LED to take off?

If the reason we were using CFLs in the first place was to reduce mercury pollution, sure. But we're not. We're using them to save money, decrease overall energy consumption, and (where applicable) decrease general fossil-fuel-plant emissions, including CO2. The "save money" reason alone is sufficient justification, IMHO.

Dave Eaton -- _thank_you_ for the source for zinc powder.
I'm getting some to add to my all-purpose kit.

Please do post your results. I haven't looked at any of the more recent "low mercury" (green tags) fluorescents, which ought to be most common by now.

I have made a point to look into broken fluorescent tubes whenever I've come across one in trash, and into the one CFL that we once broke in our house (the tube came unglued from its base and cracked).

Every one has had several drops of liquid mercury visible, each somewhat bigger than the head of a standard straight pin.

This is the danger of using logic. John Vreeland wrote above: "By my reckoning there should be just enough ... Any more than that is essentially wasted. Thus, when the bulb breaks almost all of the available mercury is already vaporized. There should be no significant mercury in the carpet to clean up." But waste of cheap stuff is routine.

It's always better to look. Look at the hardware, you'll see liquid mercury (it takes the heat of the arc, which can barely get going when the lamp is cold, to vaporize enough to maintain it; that's why fluorescents have trouble in cold weather use and why some have 'fast start' circuitry to rapidly get more of the mercury into vapor form; they want more in the gaseous form to get maximum light output than is there at room temps.).

And it's always better to look it up; memory can't tell us what's current best practice:
Results ... about 41,700 for +"fluorescent tube" +disposal

http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/FluoresLamps/

The one thing they told me at college that is verifiably correct:
"Every fact you learn here will be wrong in 30 years; doubt, and check, what you think you know."

scote: Do CFL's last longer? Not if they are sideways or in poorly vented housings.

Could anyone spell out the problem with a sideways mounting?

My understanding is that fluorescents wear out quickly if subjected to frequent on-off cycling, but I suspect that may apply more to obsolete ballast designs. Can anybody here clarify that one?

And, while we're at it, what about Hank Roberts's views (#47) on lighting, sleep, etc? (Bora: please de-lurk!)

Thanks to Milloy & Myers for stimulating this informative discussion!

P.S., if you want your own cleanup kit for mercury spills (thermometers as well as fluorescent lights are a concern), here's another source:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm --- look down the page:
2 ounces: $2.50

Note, however, you may want this sooner rather than later, before it's illegal to buy it in the USA.

"The United States CPSC has initiated criminal legal action against us and other chemical suppliers. .... focusing on .... a wide variety of other common chemicals & metals such as: Sulfur, Aluminum, Magnesium, Titanium, Zirconium, Zinc, .... The CPSC now claims this action is to stop the manufacture of illegal explosive fireworks.
.... These chemicals are also absolutely vital in the manufacture of our Hydrogen Fuel System Kits that have gained wide world attention - and been in development for years now. Eliminating the availability of these chemicals will end the possibility of us ever manufacturing our Hydrogen Fuel Systems."

Oh, my head. First it was low-flush toilet at the same time as high-fiber diets. Now this. Do we have a Department of Perverse Outcomes producing this sort of regulation?

Anyhow, there's your zinc, as long as you can get it.

Of course, there have never been any lab tests to determine the effectiveness of asbestos versus the temperatures reached by burning jet fuel

Is it a good isolator against heat in the first place? I thought it was used simply because it doesn't burn?

Outlawing zinc is not that surprising, I suppose. I used it as a kid to make, uh, energetic materials.

Hg forms amalgams with aluminum, too, so maybe Al foil would work. I went looking in the lab for a little Hg to test that idea, and apparently we are so freaked out by Hg now that other than one manometer, we have not a drop around. Not even from the odd broken thermometer. Interesting.

Do _not_ use aluminum to try to pick up mercury. Seriously bad idea:
http://www.yarchive.net/chem/aluminum_mercury.html

Zinc powder is still available from both sources named above.

Aside to Robster --- re migraines and CFLs, not necessarily true for home lighting. This is anecdotal, but one longtime friend who's quite sensitive to office lighting and avoids fluorescent lighting at work because of migraines has no problem in our home with our evening lighting.

I'm guessing some people's migraines may be kicked off by the combination of office fluorescents and CRTs, both of which can flicker.

Older office lighting may be the old transformer type that flicker at 60 cycles ("solid state ballast"-- that's a transformer).

Office CRT computer monitors default to a 60-Hz refresh rate.

Combine several different flickering sources? Could be painful.

I can see a 60-cycle flicker; most people don't notice that rate consciously.

Newer fluorescents with electronic ballasts run at 20,000 cycles/second, and the experience if tried may be different than an office full of fluorescents.

We replaced most of the incandescents in our house with CFLs mainly because our light bulbs were burning out too quickly. There's some odd power fluctuation that we haven't been able to get fixed. It only happens sometimes.

Anyway, after 5 years we had a few burn out when the agent (we had the house for sale) left the lights on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It still took over a month.

The only place I didn't use them was in the bathroom as vanity lights above the mirror. They just didn't look good. I tried some different kinds, but I just wasn't satisfied. Hopefully our next house will have recessed lights above the mirror.

I've dropped CFLs before ont he carpet and they never broke. They bounced a few times and then came to rest. (I'm short and from our step stool I really have to reach to screw them in.) Thankfully I never dropped on on our hardwood floors.

> power fluctuation ... bulbs burning out
If you see incandescents briefly get _brighter_ --- call an electrician promptly; that can be a bad neutral connection somewhere, and can indicate a fire risk, it causes overheating.
http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/liteBulb.htm

How did LED's gain their reputation for super-efficiency? Why have I never seen commercially-available LED bulbs with better than about 60% the lumen/watt efficiency of a CFL? Can anyone explain why I see a 430 lumen LED advertised as a replacement for a 800 lumen 70w incandescent?

Just spill some sulfur on the spot it broke, and soon it will be safe to vacuum up. Where is your high school chemistry?

Thanks, Hank. My parents have replaced all their lights with CFLs, and they bother my wife, which is a good enough reason to hold off on them for now. As severe as her migraines can be, I'm happily overprotective.

High school? The elements were Earth, Air, Fire and Water ...

No, good point -- sulfur is indeed recommended at the EPA page referenced above.
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/mercury/faq/spills.htm
Powdered sulfur's found on the shelves in hardware store gardening sections, so likely easy to find.

On the other hand the zinc amalgam is stable -- like dental filling material.
Sulfur+mercury favors bacterial formation of methylmercury, which is the kind that bioaccumulates. http://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/

All the pages say _never_ use a vacuum cleaner, it'll be contaminated (the airflow goes over the motor, and mercury would go right through any bag and into there and out again).

http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bmercury+%2Bspill+%2Bcleanup+%2Bsulfur

So --"Don't Do That" --avoid breaking them. A lot of CFLs include a polycarbonate shell (like the GE Post Light models); that's an extra layer of protection against breakage. Only the really cheap type are exposed glass coils these days.

LEDs? coming on _very_ fast. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/03/migros_supermar.php
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/
http://midwestled.com/technology.asp
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=144973&page=3

Good catch, Hank, on the Aluminum.

Sulfur and Hg do not react much at room temperature. It coats the mercury, and can keep the vapor pressure down, and there is a minor color change when you sprinkle sulfur on mercury, but it isn't really that effective as a clean up method, even though I see it all over the web. Vacuuming it up afterwards would likely break it into a million little droplets.

i cannot abide cfls. sometimes when i enter someone's home, i find that after an hour or so i am disoriented and slightly headachey, mildly nauseated, and have a powerful need to be on the floor. every time this happens, it turns out there are cfls installed in the room i am in. my parents put in incandescents just for me when i visit. i have no idea *why* this is, but it is. i hope high-quality leds fall into my price range soon. incandescents seem so wasteful, but i rather like being able to function.

Helen Suh MacIntosh, professor in environmental health at Harvard University has a nice treehugger.com post this afternoon, on the same question.

Is Mercury from a Broken CFL Dangerous?

Wonder if a more expensive "Hepa Filter" type bag would solve the vaccume problem? I mean, is particulate size that is the issue here and one huge problem with normal vacs is that they don't stop dust or small particulates from going right through the bag. Your vaporized mercury just gets re-vaporized by the vac the moment it doesn't have anything to stop if leaving the bag it lands in, at least in theory.

As for LED color issues.. First off, normal light is slightly more blue than what bulbs give off anyway. That is why they make "natural light" bulbs that have a blue tint to them. We are just so used to the yellow light from incandescent bulbs that we think its odd to not see that. However, LEDs are probably a bit more clue than they need to be. The problem is, they are doping materials to try to produce the color they want, and some colors are damn near impossible to produce. To get a true "white", like from sunlight, you would need to leave it blue, but provide a smaller, weaker emiter next to that, or around it?, which would give off additional light in the color needed to correct the color. That just makes the price go up, adds higher odds of failure and is hard to manage, since you kind of either get light, or you don't with an LED. Its kind of hard to make one that only gives off 10% yellow along side of the 100% blue-white, to correct the color, without introducing inefficiencies that eat way more power than a 100% bright yellow bulb would. Its going to happen, but its going to be some case of like having 9 blue LED emiters around one yellow emiter or something, and all of them small enough to only produce 10% of the total light, so it adds up to the right amounts. Anything else requires adding resistance to the system or other things, which would give better light, but at the cost of efficiency.

Dave Eaton:

I read that there might be as little as 4-5 mg of Hg in a typical CFL. Considering Hg's density of 13.6g/cm^3, I calculate (feel free to check the math) that this would be a ball about 4mm in diameter for 5 mg, I guess sort of like a BB.

I get about .9 mm diameter. 2*(3*(.005 g/(13.6 g/cm^3))/(4*pi)) = .889 mm ; for double-checking, 13.6 g/cm^3 * (4*pi*(.889mm/2)^3/3) = .005 g

Rather smaller than a BB, then, if I'm right. More like Hank Roberts' "Every one has had several drops of liquid mercury visible, each somewhat bigger than the head of a standard straight pin."

Quite a while ago I was trying to put in a CFL bulb. My 3y.o. sister dropped it and it shattered. I had no idea they had mercury in them and just vacuumed it up. We both seem fine and healthy.

Like many others here, I am replacing the incandescents in my (rental) property as fast as I can get them out of the sockets (in which most are mounted horizontally in fairly tight fittings!). One or two have not come out yet; the bathroom and the WC, because both are firmly stuck, and I don't really feel like breaking a perfectly workable incandescent just to get it out. And if CFLs really do have a lower lifespan in the bathroom, I'm probably better off leaving the incandescent in there for the time being.

I've always had a big problem working out where the line is between doomsaying and speaking the truth. The problem is that too many 'speakers of the truth' have ideological 'issues' with the government of the day which go beyond their qualifications to speak on, or interest in, the environment; and it can sometimes get difficult to work out whether climate-change warnings are real or simply a whip with which to beat the incumbent government.

In the end, CFL are simple efficiency; why use up 100 watt-hours of energy to read my favourite chapter in my favourite book when 18 watt-hours give just as much light over the same time? My grandparents (products of the evil early-mid 20th century times when everyone knew that Petrochemicals Would Never Run Out) would have known all about that; it's called being frugal.

Randy Owens-

I shouldn't try to do math by hand. Thanks for the double check.

I brought a 60W equivalent into the lab and carefully disassembled it. I examined the filaments and the area at the base, and and broke the coils into straight-ish pieces to examine, so that I could look down the tubes fragments and see through them.

I didn't see anything at all. I am looking to see if the bulb I have is an amalgam bulb- in which case the mercury would be tied up by being mixed with several other metals and would not roll around as a little ball. It would be a solid, and thus not splatter everywhere when one of these CFLs broke, but I could not say for sure how much vapor would escape at room temp. I plan to do a little more digging. I have the XRF hardware to do elemental analysis, but I would hope I could make a few phone calls and find something out. If so, I'll let y'all know.

So far- Hank has seen tiny droplets, I can't do math in my head, and at least some CFLs have the mercury in them combined with other metals as an amalgam. This is a pretty interesting subject.

The link at treehugger.org is interesting. All things considered, I think that we can conclude that cleaning up CFLs is not work for a hazmat team, but one should be careful.

> at least some CFLs have the mercury in them combined with
> other metals as an amalgam

Dave, where does that come from? I don't know how it would work. Cite?

Dilaceratus, thanks, here's a link to that:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/ask_treehugger_14.php
and more: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/the_real_dirt_o.php

> I had no idea they had mercury in them and just vacuumed it up.
> We both seem fine and healthy.

Mikki, look at those two articles, they'll help; look again at the chart at the top; mercury released from using CFLs is still less than mercury from using incandescent lights; the big mercury release is from coal-burning power plants. Bacteria convert it to methylmercury. That, in the fish you eat, adds up. Some pollutants hurt people downstream/downwind from you, that's the point of controlling mercury releases, that they add up and come back in more dangerous form than the pure element mercury.

Hank, there are a handful of GE lamps that contain Hg amalgam:
http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/education_resources/lite…

The amalgam's phase behavior regulates the Hg vapor pressure over a wide temperature range, apparently. Some of the amalgam's I have read about would likely still be liquid, but from the GE pdf, it sounds like it is a solid pellet.

More from treehugger.com, referencing Pharyngula:

The $ 2000 CFL Cleanup: Where Urban Myths Come From

All the pages say _never_ use a vacuum cleaner, it'll be contaminated (the airflow goes over the motor, and mercury would go right through any bag and into there and out again).
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bmercury+%2Bspill+%2Bcleanup+%2Bsulfur

Yeah. And their solution to cleaning up a rug is to cut out the exposed section of the rug, as if a home-owner's going to destroy a living-room carpet over a broken bulb.

Mercury droplets are not going to go through a vacuum cleaner bag, and being exposed to a very low level of mercury vapor is not going to significantly 'contaminate' a motor. I seriously wonder if most of the people writing these pages have any practical experience dealing with toxic materials. The general tone of these pages is utterly hysterical. A small amount of mercury should definitely be cleaned up, but the idea you have to throw away a vacuum cleaner because it was used to clean up a few mg. of droplets is ludicrous.

(And actually, even if you did have to throw it away, buying a cheap battery-operated vac in Walmart and throwing it away would be cheaper than replacing a rug.)

I can't seem to find anywhere for submitting a letter to the editor. This kind of hypocritical, inaccurate, even alarmist (to use a term Milloy loves to throw around) nonsense just cannot stand.

Gerard-
I agree that the small amount of Hg in CFLs is unlikely to be a health concern. I still would not do anything to disperse it, out of an abundance of caution. I can't prove that Hg droplets would or would not go through a vacuum cleaner, but since Hg has a high vapor pressure, sucking air across drops with a high surface area would vaporize the stuff quickly, I'd bet.

5mg dispersed in the volume of your house air, with ventilation, is certainly not going to kill you. Some of this discussion is just interested people thinking aloud, trying to be reasonable. Even when you know the hazards and (within an order of magnitude...) the quantities involved, it makes sense to think this stuff through.

And since it is difficult to calibrate people about the toxicity or quantity of Hg in a device (a thermometer might have a gram or so, so it more of a worry than CFLs, but still nothing to panic over, IMO), perhaps it is simplest to just make sure people are aware that Hg is hazardous, and that a small quantity of Hg is in CFLs, but it is small enough that a single broken CFL is not a reason to turn your home into a superfund site. I would not recommend going nuts, but I wouldn't recommend vacuuming it up, either. YMMV.

Dave Eaton -- Thank you again! The link you gave for the lamps using amalgam includes

" BiaxTM T/E lamps with amalgam technology extend the application space of the innovative triple-tube design. They can be used both in closed luminaires and outdoor applications without significant light loss. Amalgam technology makes the BiaxTM T/E lamps suitable for use in any burning position with same light output. ..."

and

"High colour rendering index -- Ra = 82
Available in four colour temperatures -- 2700, 3000, 3500, 4000K.
May be used with dimmable electronic gears
End-of-Life protection*
The amalgam is a mercury alloy, which is an up-to-date replacement for the traditional liquid and pellet-dosed mercury. The amalgam is placed in the lamp and provides the following benefits: more stable light output in every burning position, and wider optimum operating temperature range since amalgam gives better mercury vapour control. "

That answers several questions --- I'd infer that it was the movement or unpredictable position of the droplets of liquid mercury in standard lamps that made using them sideways a problem.

I'd guess the mercury vapor in the hot lamp gets picked up into the amalgam as it cools rather than condensing into droplets --- maybe someone's got more info on how it works.
___________________
* There's a whole lot more interesting information in that PDF link you gave for the GE lights, worth a look. "End of life protection" solves the problem of CFLs stinking and smelling like burning plastic as they start to fail. That's good!

Hmm... Seems my links haven't been working. Here's the URL for a new Consumerist.com post "The Anatomy Of The "Dangerous Levels Of Mercury In CFLs" Myth"

http://consumerist.com/consumer/white-noise/the-anatomy-of-the-dangerou…

Beyond the blatant dishonesty and malicious intent of the Milloy/WND articles, perhaps this "$2000 Clean-up" story indicates how important it is to hit back immediately with clear, verifiable fact against the anti-GW crowd.

Most readers here are probably not old enough to remember that all US coins (except the penny and nickel) were silver until about 1965. When I was in high school, during the mid '50's, my classmates and I would wet those silver coins with mercury (lifted from the chemistry supply room in the science department), producing very slivery, slippery coins--an instant polish job. And we seemed to be forever cleaning up spilled mercury on the floor. I'm now 68 and I'm not demented (or least my wife and friends don't think so), nor do I have any kidney or liver conditions that could possibly stem from mercury poisoning.

I tend to take a pragmatic approach to poisons, on the premise that it's the dose that will harm one, not the substance. Water, that seemingly benign substance, is quite capable of killing in large enough quantities. It can deprive one of oxygen rather dramatically and, if too much is swallowed in too short a period, it can kill you just as effectively, as a few marathoners have discovered to their eternal disappointment in recent years.

Mercury is not the same as water, but handled prudently in very small quantities it's not going to harm one. So, if one breaks a flourescent bulb, straight or CFL type, clean up the remains carefully but don't get paranoid about it.

As for CFLs in our house, we use them in every lamp or fixture where they fit and which we use for extended periods (like my desk lamp and the reading lamp by my favorite chair). The time to reach full brightness--maybe 20 or 30 seconds--argues strongly for not using them in lights we often turn on for a couple of minutes or less and then off. We have about a dozen installed in the house, in the lamps and fixtures we use most often and the longest and it's had a material impact on our electric bills. But we've only had them in for about year--during which none have failed--so I can't tell you if they're worth the higher price. When I turn 75 I'll let you know.

Just an observation, but I think it's an interesting fact that we're still using the medium screw base socket that Edison designed more than 100 years ago when our ancestors still moved about in horse drawn carriages. When LED's come of age and move into widespread use, I fully expect the socket to still be a medium screw base. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Keanus: Still using the same medium screw base -- not by choice but by inertia.... (talk about an installed base!)

I use dimmers in too many places to make a wholesale change to CFL - but we have installed CFLs wherever we can.... including in the pantry attached to an IR switch... the light turns on just as you get to the shelving... then off about a minute or so after you leave.... cheaper than the cost of the incandescents I had to replace in the first 3 months (and a gift to the next owner of my house)!

And here we go-- A new Snopes entry: CFL Mercury

http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp

Re:Allen R. at #41, who said, "I'm not a REAL expert, but as I recall they buzz and flicker at 120hz instead of 60...."

Either way those buggers are sharp. I want to know what pair of yahoos decided that music should be A=440Hz (making three octaves down = 55Hz) and USAian AC=60Hz.

I used to tune the string instuments up to buzzing lights when playing at bars but could not do that once I started playing accordion in public. (Which caused other problems, mostly with my social life.)

I know it will never happen, but somebody needs to tag that asshole Brit Hume over this. How many times now has O'Lielly gone off about people getting their info from far-left blogs? And Hume has pimped any number of stories from the wingnutosphere, including this one, which I saw him mention just the other day. Hey Brit, get off those poisonous right-wing blogs and cover some real news, like what's happening with Anna Nicole's baby daddy!

I'm not a REAL expert, but as I recall they buzz and flicker at 120hz instead of 60....

They do. Magnetostriction, I believe, is the source of the buzz -- the same thing that causes transformer hum. So you'll have 120 Hz, 360 Hz, 540 Hz, etc. for the frequencies generated (odd harmonics).

I'm now 68 and I'm not demented (or least my wife and friends don't think so), nor do I have any kidney or liver conditions that could possibly stem from mercury poisoning.

The cognitive damage from mercury exposure is quite a bit more subtle than that. It takes serious poisoning for dementia and frothing at the mouth to be obvious, but less extreme cases still involve mental impairment.

The problem is that the very highest mental functions aren't easy for normal human beings to detect. If we see a car moving down the road, we tend to assume there's a driver. If we see a light on, we tend to assume that someone's home.

In fact, casual social interaction isn't sufficient for people to notice frontal lobe damage of various kinds. It takes extended and close contact to notice that something's wrong - most of our everyday lives, including social interaction, doesn't involve much higher thought.

So your "I handled lots of mercury, and I'm okay!" is like saying "I smoked three packs a day, and I'm perfectly healthy", only moreso. Lung cancer tends to make itself known after a while - brain damage is frequently silent.

I know every one else is saying they LOVE CFL's but really I am not fond of them.I have not seen any change in my electric bill at all and like everyone else I have them in every socket.My husband loves them I can't stand them.It takes for ever for them to get to full brightness and even then I don't think they put out enough light.Not to mention they are twice the price of the other light bulbs and mine keep going out every 3 months or so.Now that I know they have mercury in them I dislike them even more.

Hee, thanks Erica - that's a near-perfect statement of the "wife test" which CFL's fail. More detail at this Washington Post article about CFLs. Quote:

...said Wendy Reed, director of the federal government's Energy Star campaign, which labels products that save energy and has been working with retailers to market CFL bulbs.
"I have heard time and again that a husband goes out and puts the bulb into the house, thinking he is doing a good thing," Reed said. "Then, the CFL bulb is changed back out by the women. It seems that women are much more concerned with how things look. We are the nesters."

CFL's really don't belong in the bathroom or the bedroom for aesthetic reasons.

You should see electricity savings, though - but whether there's enough to be noticeable depends on what else your household has, like electric stove/dryer and kids and such.

Erica:

"Keep going out every 3 months or so" is definitely a sign of something wrong. Defective bulbs, a bad fixture and/or location, something weird about your local power service...something. As for no change in your bill, no real ideas for you there. The things are using about 1/3 the juice, so that should be reflected in the long run. Meter reading, maybe?

As for your complaints about startup and brightness, I agree wholeheartedly. Startup time is mostly inevitable (some better electronic ballasts don't have this problem, IIRC) and I still use incandescents in fixtures that get flipped on and off frequently for very short periods. I strongly suspect many "60 watt incandescent equivalent" CFLs are more like 55 or 50, and between that and the frequently crappy-color-but-inexpensive phosphor mix often used, I think CFL manufacturers are frequently shooting themselves in the foot.

But a better-educated consumer can lessen some of these drawbacks. If you ever fix the "blowing out every 3 months" problem, look carefully at how you used incandescents, and what options are available for CFLs, both for color and brightness. Some of the complaints of "they're too dim" are coming from folks replacing 75 or 100-watt incandescents with 60-watt equivalent fluorescents. Whatever the cause, ignore the "equivalence" ratings anyway, and look at the ACTUAL watts on the bulb. 15 watts no good? Try 18, 23, etc. I just put 23-watt, "100-watt equivalent" bulbs in a 4-socket ceiling fan fixture at home, and they're way too much. I'll probably downgrade three of them. But I must confess, I'd love to see what four 80-watt CFLs would do to that room!

How much Mercury is in a can of Tuna fish as compared to one CFL bulb?

> Wow, people have blue-light responses too? Wonder if
> it's the same genes plants use... :)
>
> Posted by: Carlie | May 1, 2007 11:48 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&do…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pub…

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&rend…
"...two blue-light photoreceptors, cryptochromes 1 and 2 (CRY1 and CRY2), recently discovered in mammals are specifically expressed in the ganglion cell and inner nuclear layers of the mouse retina. In addition, CRY1 is expressed at high level in the SCN and oscillates in this tissue in a circadian manner. These data, in conjunction with the established role of CRY2 in photoperiodism in plants, lead us to propose that mammals have a vitamin A-based photopigment (opsin) for vision and a vitamin B2-based pigment (cryptochrome) for entrainment of the circadian clock...."

Tangentially interesting item turned up in the same search:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&arti…

Oxycon-

Data I have see suggests between 30 and 90 micrograms of mercury in a can of tuna.

This pbs site quotes 57 micrograms in a 6 oz can, which squares with what I remember, and calculating (despite the obvious perils of this) I got 85ug based on some data expressed as ppm mercury.

http://www.pbs.org/now/science/mercuryinfish.html

This is more than I would have guessed. Albacore seems to be higher in Hg.

Zinc and wet disposable paper towels aside, I still haven't figured out how the EPA expects me to clean up anything without using my hands...

;-)

Cathy! You mean you haven't evolved tentacles yet? Or a prehensile tail? Or had cybernetic housecleaning prostheses installed?

Loozer.

If I get a cybernetic housecleaning prothesis (I could call it Husbot),
would it actually fulfill it's commitment to do 50% of the housework?

Maybe I should work on that tentacle thing, because it also sounds kinda handy..

HA!

(sorry, I don't possess the pun gene)

Libby-

I have the same problem. I was at a friend's house just the other day who had a CFL with no cover as his kitchen light. We had gone into his kitchen and after a few minutes I had a lot of trouble seeing, got a headache, felt really dizzy and basically couldn't function until he turned the light off, and even then it took a bit for me to recover.

This problem isn't all that uncommon. A lot of people just can't handle being in rooms with fluorescent lights, and disability rights activists have been fighting the adoption of fluorescent-only lighting in public spaces. See here.

Cripes-- The geniuses at the Washington Times ran the Milloy column yesterday (03 May).

http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20070502-092153-8028r.htm

Citing the WT article, Rush Limabugh repeated the story on Friday.

Transcript:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_050407/content/01125114.gue…

Just a point worth noting on this issue, most new compact flouorescents use a solid mercury amalagam, as opposed to liquid mercury. This means if a bulb is broken when off/not heated up, the only mercury released should be a solid amalgam, meaning it won't emit mercury vapor. Nonetheless, the amount of mercury in a CFL is hundreds of times less than a typcial thermometer, so even if all the mercury were to be released as vapor, simply letting the room ventilate should drop the concentration to safe levels quickly. I think cleaning up the area with wet sponges/paper towels and throwing all the broken bits in a plastic bag, then disposing of it properly is still a good idea though.

As for a lot of the complaints in this thread about the CFLs causing headaches, and other issues, I think that has more to do with the color output than flickering -- especially in the case of the newest CFLs meant to look like incandescent replacements. Electronic switching ballasts shouldn't produce any visible flickering at all.

Basically, the 2700K CFLs -- the most common ones intended to look like incandescent, accomplish this by throwing a huge "spike" of red output to make the lamp look "warmer". This actually makes the color rendering worse. I've experienced the same things as many on here -- the feeling that the room appeared "dimmer", as I couldn't see as well, and working under that light for any period of time would lead to headaches/strain.

I completely eliminted both effects by switching to a higher color temperature 3500K CFL -- about the same color as those filtered incandescents with the blue glass (which are even less efficient than regular incandescent). In fact, now I actually prefer the 3500K CFLs to incandescent! Color rendering is better, and I find it's much more pleasant to read and work under a more neutral white light, than a yellowish one. I also find that a 9W CFL in 3500K actually allows me to see better than a brighter 13W CFL at 2700K.

Good linear fluorescent fixtures -- using 90-CRI tubes, and electronic ballasts, are much more efficient, and produce better color than CFLs even. It's too bad that the reputation of linear tubes is completely tainted by crappy flicking cool white tubes with horrible (60CRI) color rendering. I wish here were more selections of high-quality dedicated fluorescent fixtures (not retrofit bulbs) including ones with dimming ballasts.

While I am a supporter of CFL's and agree this is an over-reaction, they still did not explain what one should do about a broken bulb that lands on deep pile carpeting.

If you plan on using a vacuum cleaner to clean up the broken glass but are worried that it will kick up the mercury, just let the room air out for 15 minutes first as the EPA suggests. After letting the mercury out the windows for a half hour I would think you would be fine. Obviuosly, pick up and bag the big pieces first. If you remain concerned even after this, replace the vacuum bag- throwing away the old one in a plastic bag.

You can find out independent objective answers to many of the questions in this careful article:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm

Speaking as someone who both puts on the suits and talks to the homeowners, I am rather ashamed that the cleanup company could responsibly ~let~ someone spend that much money on such a trivial matter.

I'd rent them a blower overnight ($100), run it out the window for 48 hours, then seal up the room and test the air the next day ($50 to $250), and charge them 150 dollars for my time. Getting the very bored (and too often inexperienced) state regulators involved early invariably makes things too expensive.

It's one thing when your basement oil tank leaks and you've got 150 gallons of #2 oil seeping into the slab. That gets real expensive real fast. It's another thing entirely when a little explanation and experience can set an obviously worried mind at ease.

Two grand,jeebus. No wonder I make sane people nervous whenever I show up with my meters.

Since we have been sweeping or vacuuming up fluorescent bulbs FOR DECADES! (Or are not those long tubes used in just about every business in the country mercury free?) I cannot understand how the hysteria over this is so pervasive in the right wing media... unless the right wingers are *really stupid*.

oops... that 'not' should not have been there in my post. sorry.

I'm one of those retarded radical right wing creationists and I have been using CFL's since the early 1990's. For the first 5 or 6 years the only brand I could get were Lights of America with the straight tubes. The coiled tubes are a recent development. It has taken 15 years for the govt. to come on board for compact fluorescents, which is kind of funny because bright white LED's are starting to come online. Thus the govt. is still one technology behind.

Just a short bit of history...
At the end of the 19th century, man was awakened with a fabulous new lighting for all to enjoy. The incandescent light bulb was born. Thanks to the inventiveness and perseverance of one of the most famous inventors of our times, Thomas a. Edison, we are able to still enjoy its benefits, but can we still enjoy its luxuries?
http://www.quazen.com/Science/Environment/Led-Lighting-The-Worlds-Final…
Led Lighting, The World's Final Frontier

Of course, there have never been any lab tests to determine the effectiveness of asbestos versus the temperatures reached by burning jet fuel

Is it a good isolator against heat in the first place? I thought it was used simply because it doesn't burn?

wonderful post,
thanks for highlighting the fallacy of being too careful.

There is a way to clean this mess from carpets.

When the glass breaks, open the windows and leave the room.
Wait 1 hour.

Come back with gloves on, a mask or scarf covering your nose and mouth and put large pieces in a plastic bag.

Then, you can vacuum- use a bagless vacuum with good suction, like a Dyson or a Dirt Devil Reaction. I recommend putting bedding in a bag and vacumming the mattress. Wipe surfaces with a wet paper towel. Don't go crazy, you don't have to wash the walls or doors.

When done vacuuming, leave for another hour and close the door behind you.

Go outside and empty the dirt cup(s) of your vacuum into a plastic bag. Put in the garbage or set aside to bring to an applicable recycling center- if available. Shake the bedding out outside and then put in the washer.

Don't enter the room for another hour.

All done!!!

Tracy's Cleaning and Organizing, Buffalo NY

CFL's have now reached South Africa. The idiotic quasi-statal Power Company (ESKOM) is trying to con us all that we will save enough energy to power up another 80 000 more homes. All we need to do is replace all our incandescents with CFL's. WHAT A STUPID IDEA!! When the coal runs out in less than a decade, they will be forced to switch over to Solar/Wind/Other. We don't need ANY more Hg in our environment. In 100 years time our descendant will ask why we allowed this to happen?
I am with Milloy 100%.
DOWN WITH CFL's, until they take the HG out.
pieterp@sapo.co.za

Two weeks ago I installed 8 CFLs in my home where I used to have incandescent bulbs, and as far as light quality goes, all is the same.

Except this morning I stubbed my toe on the dining room table AND forgot my toast in the toaster.

Clearly these events are related and CFLs are evil.

Interesting story and commentary.

Bottom line, these bulbs have mercury in them, which the gov has gone crazy about protecting us from in the past. So what's the deal, why are we being mandated to use them? Isn't their a better option? If all this environmental stuff wasn't so politicized I feel we would have better options that are good for us, the country and the world. I do everything I can to protect the environment and not to please our wonderful politicians. Unfortunately the CFL has become an icon of how knee jerk and short sighted national policy has become.

Compact Fluorescents are vastly better than old-fashioned incandescents. More importantly, LED bulbs are vastly better than CFLs! CFLs are becoming obsolete!

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?&dest=5&item=389896&cid=Se…