Hey, gang…it seems that highlighting that pointless petition to Free Kent Hovind has stirred up some enmity. The organizer of the petition has noticed us. Apparently, Satan's clever scheme to destroy goodness in the world involves getting a bunch of internet nerds to wiggle their fingers and type their names into a text box.
Blaspheming Heathens challenge us to a duel!
The Devil himself is inspiring non-believers to destroy our efforts.
I apologize for the vandalism that occured on the petition this morning. It appears our petition and prayers have driven another brigade of Satan's army into quite a fury:
Then my post is quoted (it wasn't exactly "furious," though, since I said justice shouldn't be determined with a popularity contest). I will agree with this poor fellow—don't deface the foolish petition. There's no point, anyway, since the organizer will just delete your funny signatures.
That's OUR petition they're trying to destroy. I just cannot understand how those heathens can live with themselves.
Let's give 'em our best prayer-circle inclusion and let them know that Dr. Hovind has the support he needs in the midst of this devil's playground on the internet.
I didn't really think of it as a duel, but OK, en garde. Unleash Satan's Brigade, and give 'em hell! The "Jail Kent Hovind" petition has 235 signatures, the "Free Kent Hovind" petition has 45. Let's steamroller 'em. No cheating, either—legitimate, unique signatures only, please.
Let's also be nice and encourage them to pray real hard.
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"The Devil himself", huh? A new title for PZ! (though perhaps he's been called that before)
"Brigade of Satan's army"? That might actually be a good name for a heavy metal band.
Do we get ranks?
This is a pirate brigade, Greco. You've got to earn your ranks. Simply tie a finger bone from each slain enemy into your beard. Alternatively, pierce your ear, nose, nipple, or other body part, thread a leather thong through the hole, and tie the finger bones to the leather thong.
Pirates were pretty egalitarian, anyway. Equal shares for all, except that the captain, quartermaster, and navigator might get an extra share.
I didn't know men of God had such a great sense of humor.
I signed it.
I bypassed the 'prayer' encouragement, sorry. ;)
PZ's been promoted to the rank of Lucifer by Kent Hovind himself. Now THAT's an honour. Yet, I pity those people in that prayer circle - they obviously dont have anything better to do with their lives.
What I find funny is that the Free Hoving myspace page has 125 friends but the Free Hovind petition has only 48 signatures.
"Let's give 'em our best prayer-circle inclusion"
Does this make anyone else laugh? It just seems so strange to combine the tough-guy sentence structure with the words "prayer-circle inclusion". Can you imagine trying to intimidate someone with that? As in, "If you don't pay up, I'm going to INCLUDE YOU IN MY PRAYER-CIRCLE!"
I submitted it to digg here:
http://digg.com/world_news/Digg_this_to_keep_Kent_Hovind_behind_bars
Watch the mob mentality take off very soon.
Whatever happened to pirate mode? I miss pirate mode.
prayer circle = witches sabbath
Satan's Brigade...
Can we get T-shirts with that? It will go great with my "Dam U" hat from Damnation University in Hell, MI.
OEJ
When internet nerds wiggle their fingers, magic missiles come out. Press this further, and this place will be flooded with people saying, "OMG! NErf atheists ftw!"
@ #2
Such a band may be necessary to combat The Revolutionary Army of the Infant Jesus.
[Good dreamy psych, not heavy metal]
My ears are burning. Do you think someone is praying for me? Aaaaaaaaaarrrrggggghhhh!
...
...
I signed the petition and wrote:
"Keep him there. He deserves it. He's as bad in his own way as those priests who molested all those kids. He hides behind a front of piety, all the while manipulating people, and the law, to suit his own selfish ends."
The phrase "prayer-circle inclusion" popped into my work-fatigued brain as "prayer circumcision."
"Let's give 'em our best prayer circumcision and let them know that Dr. Hovind has the support he needs in the midst of this devil's playground on the internet."
Ouch.
...
...
I guess I stirred up a hornet's nest. Not that it stings that much.
PZ probably has so many prayer-circles for him that he looks like one of those gyroscope rides you find at the carnival.
I enthusiastically endorse prayer! Prayer is good! It keeps believers on their knees and out of mischief. I wish more "prayer warriors" would engage in prayer marathons.
Please pray for me! Pray, pray, pray. I promise to report all miracles and such like.
Two words: Easy Target. These folks obviously didn't spend much time on the playground as kids.
When I go to the signature page for the Free Kent Hovind petition I am greeted with this message:
I don't care if there is a huge selection of Kent Hovind available, I don't want any. Not today. Not ever. Would even the most rabid fundie want some Kent Hovind today? Aren't there any filters or even some common sense in spam scripts?
Ouchers,
Another 44 signatures and the "Jail Kent Hovind" petition will have a 10:1 ratio over "Free Kent Hovind." Perhaps we should start a "Throw away the key" petition?
Only a brigade? Certainly at least a division ("The Big Red 666"?) even a corps.
I am personally offended that these people are praying for me. If any of them are reading this, please exclude me from your prayers. I read, not to long ago, that people who were ill and knew that folks were praying for them had a higher incidence of complications. As I am a diabetic and have hypertension, knowing that people are praying for me gives me a greater risk of having serious issues!
Stop praying for me you sadistic bastards!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1179892800&en=f…
I'd be more inclined to sign if I didn't have to PAY to do it. Even when I selected NOTHING it tried to default me to $10. I don't know if my signature is there or not. I certainly didn't give them my credit card number!
dorid, you don't have to pay for anything :P If you saw the ad, your signature is there.
John Pieret wrote:
Brigade is good, we already have the movie...
509 for keeping him in jail; 50 for letting him out. Some prayer circle they got going there!
It sort of never occurred to them that, uh, unbelievers don't believe in the other guy, either, did it?
On the other hand, one of these types actually said (on Effect Measure the other day) that he never believed atheists (he said "true atheists") really existed; he said he thought people who professed unbelief were just being public contrarians. (I think "walking against the current" was how he put it.)
It was nice to have that long-held atheist suspicion confirmed, that many of them really can't fathom the concept of unbelief. (I told the fellow in question that we weren't so different, he and I, I just believed in one or more fewer gods than he does.)
I'm listening to religious music in Hebrew; do you suppose that'll ward off funnymentalist Christian prayers? (I hope so; after high school, I've had about as much of that crap as I can stand.)
A prayer circle inclusion sounds like something you have to have surgically removed.
My girlfriend and I just signed the list. 557 to 51... so close to 11-to-1. This is great.
I signed, and wrote: "Dr." Hovind is a professional liar. I reject him as a scientist, and as a Christian. He is more manipulator than martyr, more huckster than hero. It saddens me that even in jail he continues to play the part of the persecuted believer when in fact he is nothing more than a snake oil salesman who has finally been tripped up not by the lies he supposedly told for God, but for cheating his country.
My signature makes it 599. Their petition has 51.
Shayera, but those 51 won't stand. Five of them are from people like "Amanda Hugginkiss" or "Phil Latio". They will be pulled soon. In reality, they've had a measly 45 or 46 real signatures for nearly the entire day... Can't help thinking that Kent would have had a few more supporters and/or friends than that.
51? The "Free Charles Manson" petition could get more than that.
Or, apparently, a cogent metaphor.
My signature makes it 599.
Potential dilemma: get as many signatures as possible or stop at 666 like good little minions of Satan?
Shiver me timbers how come we don't have a petition to have that hornswaggler walk the plank?
One of the best comments I have seen so far is actually on the Free Kent Hovind Petition ! (No. 51 ), and in the spirit of fairness, here is a link to the other side :-
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/FreeKentHovind/signatures.html
Since we are satans army, and they are praying for us, aren't they actually praying for satan? Perhaps prayer does work, since they started our petition has increased tremendously.
"Let's give 'em our best prayer-circle inclusion and let them know that Dr. Hovind has the support he needs in the midst of this devil's playground on the internet."
This reads like Mad Magazine! Truth is stranger than fiction.
I did not sign, but I am delighted it is 10 to one in favor of the dinosaurs.
Hah! Signer #666 was "Anonymous". You know who that was!
Bunch of miscreants. Austinatheist has posted a couple of xian films from 1941 that explain what's in store for you and all you need to know to avoid the worst.
http://austinatheist.blogspot.com/
Scroll to the videos, "The Rapture" and "The Door to Heaven".
Uh oh! The Creationist crowd have topped 50 signatures! What'll we do!?!?
Oh wait, the "keep the scumbag locked up" petition has well over 700 signatures. Phew! I guess we're safe!
All hail the Dark Lord or some crap like that.
(I certainly agree with you about such petitions. I would hope that the legal system wouldn't be swayed by such silliness, but stick to the evidence. Though it's easy to see why Hovind's supporters think that evidence doesn't matter...)
Well I guess PZ is the devil now...
BTW I also posted it at http://www.christianforums.com/t5390861-keep-hovind-in-jail.html
Perhaps by "another brigade of satan's army" he meant that he is in one himself?
No, you're right -- that would require a higher degree of self-consciousness than we should expect from these guys. Pity.
Has any creationist ever passed the mirror test for self-awareness?
Ok, ok... we've had our fun.
Well done, free-thinkers.
At 770 to 52 after just 24 hours, that's nearly a 15:1 ratio of intelligence vs blind faith in a criminal! We rest our case.
Contest:
Most humorous proposal for what to do with the FreeKentHovind MySpace page will win the OFFICIAL FreeKentHovind Myspace page AND FreeKentHovind Petition.
Post them here or send your entries to cgoodahl@yahoo.com
Winner will receive the user-name and password for the MySpace page, petition, and access to the yahoo email account of the administrator.
Batteries are not included, void where prohibited by law.
Winner will be chosen by current admin when sufficient entries are received.
I am #776 of the Keep K.H. in jail petition. Glad to do my part.
I'm at number 790. They've got 52. Mwahahahahahahaha!
Ha, I left a message on their post. I wonder how long it stays there...
They might believe I were serious if my userpic didn't have a background of hellish flames.
823 for Satan's Fair Law, 52 for the KKKristian Special Rights Campaign.
Hmm. I suppose if he got born again, that would mean another person did the crime and he's innocent. Too bad it's too later for that, eh?
Somewhat off topic, but a couple of years ago, National Geographic published an article that discussed some old texts that were currently being read using a new technique called multi-spectral imaging. One of the newly uncovered texts indicated that the mark of the beast was 616 rather than the traditional 666. Since I'm relatively new to this blog, have I missed that discussion and the implications for belief? The link to the article is below.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0425_050425_papyrus.html
Do they actually believe that Lucifer Morningstar, the second most powerful entity in Creation, has been reduced to this?
Seriously guys, if the Morningstar literally existed and gave a damn, you'd really know about it.
Did anyone notice that the following passage from the "Free Kent Hovind" peition:
bears a striking resemblance to a passage in a certain other petition:
I'm just sayin'...
"Did anyone notice that the following passage from the "Free Kent Hovind" peition:
Dr. Hovind did not hurt, injure, or kill anyone or anything, and yet he must do jail time with hardened criminals.
bears a striking resemblance to a passage in a certain other petition:
Yet, Paris Hilton did not hurt, injure, or kill anyone or anything, and yet she must do jail time.
I'm just sayin'..."
Ding! Ding! Ding! Astute observation of a glaringly obvious clue.
A cookie for Bocksbeutel.
Seriously, any takers on the aforementioned offer?
Satan has no need to rally an army against Kentyboy, since he's done a very good job of stabbing himself in the foot.
I think more people need to pay attention to Pharyngula's Muse.
(EBISS) Evolutionary Biologists In Satan's Service.
Abiogenisis-Believers In Satan's Service.
ABISS.
Rev: I'm distracted today and in a bit of coffee withdrawal, but...I don't think I fully UNDERSTAND Pharyngula's Muse. I haven't read the "Free Kent" petition or the MySpace page either, though, so I'm probably missing something?
616 vs 666: The thinking is that Revelations is actually referring to Caligula rather than Nero. It also seems that Caligula is actually a "better" choice for John to be writing about since he really was more of a real beast than Nero. Nero was many bad things, but Caligula was truly psychotic.
I'm pleased to report that I was signatory #940.
Not because the number has any particular significance, but because 940 is seventeen times more than the "free Kent" petition has (55 as of this posting).
We discussed the 666 thing quite a bit last year (when 06/06/06 was in the news). Back then, I brought up the point that some old manuscript copies of Revelations contain 616 instead of 666, and people have known about it for decades.
I think Satan's Brigade is out on spring maneuvers drawing up battle plans for the War On Christmas.
The Big Red 666 recon forces are in training to replace all public square creche baby jesus statuettes with life like blue ring octopus sculptures.
616 was known, but it wasn't known which version is older -- there are old manuscripts for both numbers.
The "Free Charles Manson" petition could get more than that.
Ouch! That was sharper than a lava cactus spine.
Most humorous proposal for what to do with the FreeKentHovind MySpace page will win the OFFICIAL FreeKentHovind Myspace page AND FreeKentHovind Petition.
To do what with it...? The very word "MySpace" in this context is giving me strange thoughts... ;-)
No thanks, I won't sign. PZ's earlier post had a more valid point. Popularity contests should not be relevant to a justice system.
I can see the humor of doing this to simply mock the Free Kent Hovind petition, but unfortunately such petitions also mock the U.S. justice system. As the courts seem to have been working just fine against this tax evader, I will withhold my mockery until it is more appropriate.
Spaulding,
We're not mocking the justice system at all. They did their job here, and for that, we congratulate them.
What we're mocking in the idea that a petition should free someone from jail (it shouldn't); and that we're Satan's minions (well, some of us are, but we won't share the handshake with you for a while now); and, most importantly, driving home the point that PRAYER DOES NOT WORK.
The only choice they have now is to remove their stupid taunts from the various places they've posted them. The longer they're up, the foolisher they look.
Spaulding,
Plus, we're providing fuel against the 'see how many people want Kent free' appeal to the Moral Majority in Congress. I think that juxtaposing the two views is important. It's important to show which point of view is actually popular.
"'Most humorous proposal for what to do with the FreeKentHovind MySpace page will win the OFFICIAL FreeKentHovind Myspace page AND FreeKentHovind Petition.'
"To do what with it...?""
Whatever you choose, Kristine...
If you have a good proposal for what should become of it.
The account and all of the crazy Hovindites collected as friends(including private family accounts)could be yours to keep up as an amusing ruse, completely satirize, or possibly even turn it into something completely silly and different...
I'm sure there's still some fun to be had there.
Satan's army, eh? Nice, I can dig that. If we get some black uniforms with crimson and brass accents. And if there's parades. And groupies.
Well, now it's got over 1000 signatures, and mine.
How dare you people condemn this man? I am as staunch an atheist as any here, perhaps more so, but I dont want to see Hovind in jail, taxes be damned!
Who did Hovind hurt? Did he hurt other victims (taxpayers) by trying to minimize his own victimization?
If Hovind were a staunch proponent of EVOLUTION, and an atheist, and he was in jail for tax problems, would you STILL sign the petition to keep him in jail?
Funny to see fellow atheists supporting the political imprisonment of someone they disagree with.
In terms of moral principle, there is no justification for the jailing of Hovind. Tax law does not define morality, and Hovind did nothing morally wrong deserving of jail time.
And in terms of utility (from an atheist perspective) there is no justification for the jailing of Hovind. Hovind never changed the mind of any evolution lovers. I doubt Hovind ever converted a single atheist during any of his appearances or lectures. But he sure did provide for some good fun! Honestly, Hovind was far more valuable to atheism and evolution as a free man than now as a jailed man.
The only reasons I see for an atheist supporting the jailing of Hovind is 1) you hate free speech and like watching people suffer who disagree with you, or 2) you think that the proper response to someone who tries to minimize their income taxation involves using other peoples tax money to imprison them and prevent them from working any more to pay off the alleged debt.
Free Kent Hovind!
"In terms of moral principle, there is no justification for the jailing of Hovind. Tax law does not define morality, and Hovind did nothing morally wrong deserving of jail time."
He broke the fucking law you idiot. Whatever you think about tax-laws or how they should be reformed or what-not, Hovind decided that he was too damn important to follow the rules we're all subject to. I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I signed the petition was to give a middle-finger to godbots who think their dearly beloved faith-based con-artist should be exempt by virtue of being faith-based.
Aaron,
I'm against tax fraud in general, regardless of who's behind it. And, for the most part, I'd say imprisonment for tax evasion is pretty harsh.
However... He was found guilty of 58 counts. 58! That's 58 more times than I've evaded my taxes. The total was $473,818. Trust me, if someone I knew owed that kind of back taxes, I wouldn't support them.
But it wasn't just that; it was the rationalizing. He's God's employee? Maybe, but he was taking in $2 million/year from this theme park. "God's Rich Employee" would be nice and accurate.
I partly agree with you that evading taxes generally should not get one imprisoned, but the problem is he was convicted of 58 counts. Does that change your view at all?
Here's a little more background:
http://www.annistonstar.com/opinion/2007/as-columns-0516-hhjacksoncol-7…
Good question, Aaron Kinney. Atheists make up such a small percentage of the prison population that I confess I haven't had the opportunity of being in that position. ;-)
Come on. You're going about this all wrong. You're supposed to keep people guessing.
Another white-collar-crime apologist.
Free Kenneth Lay!
Half a million clams pays for a lot of not lunches, Aaron. A crime that doesn't produce a broken, bloodied body isn't necessarily victimless.
Kristine's probably right, though... odds are, Aaron is lampooning. :-)
In other words, every Brigade needs an Advocate.
Tyler DiPietro,
He broke the fucking law you idiot.
Thanks for the ad hominem, you rational minded, non-foaming-at-the-mouth, skeptic, you.
Whatever you think about tax-laws or how they should be reformed or what-not, Hovind decided that he was too damn important to follow the rules we're all subject to. I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I signed the petition was to give a middle-finger to godbots who think their dearly beloved faith-based con-artist should be exempt by virtue of being faith-based.
I, like you, do not think that being faith based should "exempt" one from being taxed. I believe that people should be exempt from being taxed solely at their discretion. Consent is the key my friend.
Besides, whether or not taxation is justifiable, I imagine that you concede that jailing Hovind serves no useful purpose. Now we have a situation where instead of him skimping out on taxes, he is getting taxes PAID BACK to him to feed and clothe and care for him, while he is now forbidden from earning any more income and paying back what he owes.
But you dont care cause all you want to see is another big name Christian get jailed, and you dont care why. Jailing Hovind for tax evasion is probably just as proper to you as jailing a priest for molestation.
MikeM,
Thank you for the thoughtful response. And yes I am very very familiar with Hovinds case. Ive read virtually every article about it as well as listened to the recorded jail phone conversations between him and his family, as well as all the junk on his blog.
However... He was found guilty of 58 counts. 58! That's 58 more times than I've evaded my taxes. The total was $473,818. Trust me, if someone I knew owed that kind of back taxes, I wouldn't support them.
I partly agree with you that evading taxes generally should not get one imprisoned, but the problem is he was convicted of 58 counts. Does that change your view at all?
No this does not change my view at all. To me it is 58 counts of prevention of victimhood. True, his rationalizations are absurd, just like everything that comes out of his mouth. But even if I did support taxation, I would argue that nonviolent offenses such as this are better handled without prison time.
If "stealing" from the government is such a crime, in that it increases the tax burden on others, then why correct such an offense by preventing the perpetrator from ever paying back the money and simultaneously increasing the tax burden even further by paying to house feed and clothe the guy in a 6x8 cell?
The logic is absent on both sides: that of Hovind and that of the State. And it saddens me to see so many otherwise highly intelligent and logical atheists jump at the chance to imprison a crazy yet harmless theist. I thought that all the communist atheists were on the OTHER side of the atlantic :(
Kseniya,
Another white-collar-crime apologist.
Free Kenneth Lay!
Half a million clams pays for a lot of not lunches, Aaron. A crime that doesn't produce a broken, bloodied body isn't necessarily victimless.
The comparison is not apt. Hovind PROTECTED himself from victimization by the government. Kenneth Lay, on the other hand, victimized his employees and broke a contract between him and his company.
So Kseniya, to make your analogy fit properly, Hovind would be the Enron emplpoyee with the 401K, while Kenneth Lay would be the equivalent of the government who is imprisoning Hovind for defending his financial resources.
I hope that clears it up for you as to why I am apologizing for Hovind.
Kristine's probably right, though... odds are, Aaron is lampooning. :-)
I most certainly am not, althouhg I appreciate the sentiment. What I am trying to do here is wake everyone up from their state-loving Stockholm Syndrome, and get them to understand that Hovind is 1) unjustly prisoned and 2) better off to us atheists as a free man.
"I believe that people should be exempt from being taxed solely at their discretion. Consent is the key my friend."
So basically, you think that people should be able to disobey an established law they don't approve of. Thank you for removing yourself from serious conservation.
Ummm, is there something wrong with jailing a priest for molestation?
I'd like to see anyone convicted of molestation jailed, what's being a priest got to do with it?
Anyway, tax evasion seems to be very useful for getting extortionists and racketeers off the streets, it was the only thing that got Al Capone locked up, after all.
I thought that all the communist atheists were on the OTHER side of the atlantic :(
No, they are on the other side of the Pacific, and I wouldn't diss them if I owed them as much money as you guys.
That wasn't his niche. His niche was preemptively closing the minds of young people before they had a chance to learn about either science or alternative religious positions. You don't think that was harmful?
I disagree, but in any case, Hovind made no attempt to renounce the benefits of taxation. He was quite happy to make use of the police and the court system, for instance.
Hovind has already demonstrated that he's not likely to pay what he owes, so this argument is reversed. The cost of housing him in jail is, so far as I can see, considerably less than the loss in tax revenue if he continued to operate his business a free man; and the income he can no longer earn will be picked up by other businesses which are more likely to pay their taxes--especially now that they see that claiming divine right is no defense.
There is no justification for the jailing of Hovind.
Well, Aaron, since Kent, himself, would like convicted felons to avoid jail time, there could be other forms of punishment. I was thinking of a flogging/caning or put him in a pillory.
Oh, I get it. Libertarian.
The Hovind-Lay analogy fails because no analogy was drawn. That was purely your invention. I mentioned Lay because he and Hovind have a few important things in common. Apparently you disagree. White-collar crime is still crime. If you want to claim some white-collar crimes are victimless, well ok, but they're still crimes and require a response from society. If you want to argue that Hovind's crimes and Lay's crimes differ in degree, well ok. I would agree. If you want to redefine some of them as non-crimes, well ok. Get to work. Speaking the words does not make it so (unless you're Jean-Luc Picard.)
I admit that I find this argument strangely compelling. :-)
How far can we extend this reparations model?
So... How are tax-funded services rendered, or not? How is access to tax-funded infrastructures granted, or not?
That's pretty much been one of the central pieces in my discontent with our enormous prison population. I guess I shouldn't be such a hypocrite.
Let's start a "Forced Labor For Kent Hovind" petition.
Yeah. If Kent were free, he'd pay his tax bill on the backs of those who probably can't afford it. They'd bail him out cuz he's so... damned pious. *gag*
But it's them, or us - right, Aaron?
Ehem.
We are talking about a fraudster. He didn't earn his money, he tricked people into robbing themselves blind and send that money to him as a gift. That's not all that different from Lay who tricked people into not noticing that he robbed them blind.
And, yes, tax evasion on the order of half a megabuck should be considered a serious crime, even in the USA where an amazing number of people doesn't want to pay the membership fee for democracy. Does anyone know if any of Hovind's belongings have been confiscated?
Simple solution for Aaron here. Make paying taxes voluntary (no, really-stay with me.) Everyone who pays gets a taxpayer's card. Anyone caught using a publicly funded highway, collecting government benefits, sending their kids to a public school, using a public library, toilet, etc. without a card is subject to either serious jail time or full payment of back taxes. I for one would enjoy watching a libertarian shit his pants on principle. They spew shit out the other end all too often.
All sarcasm aside, I would be a libertarian if: roads and bridges built themselves, rich people always earned their rewards, and if the poor, sick, disabled and stupid just didn't mind curling up and dying somewhere convenient.
And somehow, it is often progressives that are dismissed as naive utopians who don't know anything about the "real world."
616 was known, but it wasn't known which version is older -- there are old manuscripts for both numbers.
Ehem.
We are talking about a fraudster. He didn't earn his money, he tricked people into robbing themselves blind and send that money to him as a gift. That's not all that different from Lay who tricked people into not noticing that he robbed them blind.
And, yes, tax evasion on the order of half a megabuck should be considered a serious crime, even in the USA where an amazing number of people doesn't want to pay the membership fee for democracy. Does anyone know if any of Hovind's belongings have been confiscated?