Double standards in the public schools? No, say it ain't so!

Some of the teachers are deeply concerned that handing out such material might imply that the school is officially endorsing or establishing atheism. Some are going even farther by refusing to hand out the flyers that they personally do not agree with.

Fire them.

Not that such a course of action could actually be taken, given the state of teachers' unions.

PZ: "Also, there's a poll associated with the article, and 2/3 are so far calling her harangue inappropriate."

I was filled with joy to read this, thinking rationality was not totally dead in this country, until I checked the poll linked to the news story. I'm afraid PZ is wrong and 2/3 actually think it was peachy.

Perhaps there's a different poll?
___________________________

I graduated from a little college in Iowa and the little jackass that gave our speech (voted in, not the valedictorian), proposed to his girlfriend. So my college career ended with a celebration of slack-jawed normativity, focused on one dipshit rather than the whole class. Those of us who were going on to good graduate schools or had other interesting plans sent him a flurry of emails explaining how he ruined our graduation.

You're right, I read it backwards. Forgive me, I was only on my first cup of coffee.

Those of us who were going on to good graduate schools or had other interesting plans sent him a flurry of emails explaining how he ruined our graduation.

Ooh, rational expressions of how he harmed others! I'll bet that not only bypassed his general disregard for the welfare of others, but penetrated his emotive-high over what I presume was his engagement!

You should have done something productive, like hold a blanket party.

Help, I'm gagging!
Is it pure cynic evilness, or do they *really* not realize how ironic their complaints are?
How can one be so bereft of perspective?

Excuse me while I to go scream my head off in frustration...

You do realize - we (and I refer to those on the side of enlightenment) have already lost the Culture Wars, don't you?

Court battles over creationism in schools, the breakdown of the separation of church and state - these are just symptoms. The underlying problem is that people's attitudes and priorities have shifted away from rationality. We've won battles, but lost the war.

You do realize - we (and I refer to those on the side of enlightenment) have already lost the Culture Wars, don't you?

The Enlightenment has always been asymetric warfare.

My personal view is that about 80% of people are followers. You have 10% decent, rational folks and 10% nutbags. The only difference from era to era is which 10% the 80% are following.

I think the only just reward would be for their class valedictorian to get up to the lectern and announce that she's an atheist, and that she then harangues them for 20 minutes on the inanity of religion.

Makes me want to go back to school, and do a lot better this time around, so I could give this speech. Youth is so wasted on the young.

You do realize - we (and I refer to those on the side of enlightenment) have already lost the Culture Wars, don't you?

Maybe not. There is a backlash against the fundie wingnuts and their attempts to reestablish the dark ages. A few reasons:
1. The attempts to sneak creo lies into kid's science classes and the ongoing witch hunts at NASA, Interior, USDOJ, EPA, etc. have put a lot of mainstream people on edge. Theocracies by deluded wingnuts never work for long.

2. The current Islamic shiite-sunni massacres have shown everyone what religious fanatics with god, automatic weapons, IEDs, and power drills can do. It's pretty horrible and most do not want a repeat.

3. The current administration with a creo fundie wingnut in chief is widely unpopular for sending our kids to death in a don quixote quest while fouling everything else up.

Religious fervor wingnut movements tend to come and go in cycles as their true nature and excesses become apparent to the population. There is no doubt where truth and reality exists between the scientific world view and the fundie fairy tales and selling truth has to be easier than selling lies. It may well be that faith in rationality, fairness, and our glorious 200 year old constitution with separation of church and state will not be misplaced.

If not, well most civilizations eventually decay and fall and we will have a ringside seat as the current version of the Roman empire bites the dust. If it is inevitable, grab a chair, a bowl of popcorn, and figure out an exit strategy.

Graduation speeches! I recently attended a Christian homeschool graduation (I thought it would be rude to turn down the invitation); Jesus Christ, those speeches were godawful. Monotonous voices blabbered on about the "dreariness of the secular world" and the "moral compass of the Bible," in addition to the usual "it's both a beginning and an end" clichés. The speeches sounded like self-parody.

Makes me want to go back to school, and do a lot better this time around, so I could give this speech. Youth is so wasted on the young.

Makes me wish I hadn't wasted my speech as valedictorian when I had the chance...man, I could have pissed a lot of people off.

...the religious groups who shrieked about persecution when they were denied access to public schools are now shrieking just as loudly that the schools are "promoting atheism" by giving atheists the same access to a public forum as everyone else.

I don't care if they won in court or not. This can't be legal, blatant violation of church and state.

The fact that the religious nuts are screaming about an equal access policy shows exactly what their real goals are. Theocracy and domination of one cultist christian sect over all others. The hypocrisy of these people would be shocking if it wasn't routine.

If this young lady had merely expounded on how her religious beliefs or faith helped her get to where she is, as silly as that probably is, it would have been appropriate. What was completely inappropriate was using the graduation ceremony, where you have a captive audience, as a bully pulpit to proselytize. If an atheist had done the same thing, I would feel the same way. People do not attend these ceremonies to be preached to. It was way out of line, and those who say it was just fine for her to do so I am sure wouldn't feel that way if the shoe was on the other foot.

Both of the stories, especially the Rick Scarborough response, reminded me of the Baptist who had to choose between sitting in protest or standing in deference to a Buddhist invocation before a football game:

I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you're ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them. I, for one, slept better at night knowing that because Judeo-Christian prayers were not being offered at my children's schools, I didn't have to worry about them being confronted with Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Satanic or any other prayer ritual I might find offensive.

Sometimes walking a mile in someone else's shoes is a great teacher. And, I never thought that I would be using a letter to WingNutDaily in support of my own position. (This may be the last time.)

I liked the flight attendant/parachute part.

My backup Jesus 'chute's never going to open, Shannon.

Sorry.

Have fun at Liberty U., or wherever you are going.

Having to sit through these exercises year after year, I confess it would be good theatre if any of these speeches actually challenged anyone's beliefs, a nice little wakeup call.

And I'm sympathetic to the seriously devout who are also adolescent, even those (like YEC) whose views I don't share. As they mature, the usual complications of being a teenager are often compounded by a growing awareness that that their worldview is not part of the secular curriculum. So there is a real psychological pressure on some of these kids to do something to 'stand up for Jesus' on their campus.

At my school site, every year, there's at least one valedictorian from a conservative church who brings up their faith in a speech. Typically, it's a rather bland and brief endorsement in a bland (but, sadly, rarely brief) address.

More interesting to me is the way that the school newspaper is dominated year in, year out by conservative Christian kids. They gravitate to the newspaper as the one forum within the curriculum where they can raise moral concerns. The last issue of the paper is invariably filled with not-so-subtle endorsement of religion, every year. It makes the hairs stand up on my neck a bit, as I can't escape the impression that they are in effect judging the school environment and washing their hands of it at the same time.

Why does this happen? Because they feel excluded. As a formal matter, religious and philosophical ideas are not excluded from the curriculum but in practice fear of litigation saps the curriculum of some of the 'big ideas' of civilization. With Dennett, I think that we need to have a course on comparative world religion and philosophy as part of the high school curriculum nationally. It would promote understanding, make believers feel like there was a place for the consideration of belief within the curriculum, but also (as Dennett says) tend to marginalize the toxic forms of religion in favor of the benign forms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1qhzhnxzio

Caledonian's finally lost it. It's kinda funny, watching him drown in his own blathering spittle. But then, it happens eventually to all rabid contrarians.

With Dennett, I think that we need to have a course on comparative world religion and philosophy as part of the high school curriculum nationally.

And I have the perfect text for the Christian part:

The Pre-Nicene New Testament, Fifty-four Formative Texts, by Robert M. Price.

They have to read the whole thing, all 1185 pages, including the excellent intros and footnotes, from the Book of John the Baptizer to the Third Epistle to the Corinithians.

If that doesn't cure a kid of god-intoxication, nothing will.

Sow the seeds of doubt and skepticism!

Interestingly enough, this nut's harangue isn't even uncontroversial among fundies. It's a theological point of contention whether damnation occurs instantly after death or only after Judgement Day. For what it's worth, the latter is more biblical and the former is more traditional.

If it makes you feel better, PZ, I gave the student speech at my classes baccalaureate.

That helped balance out the universe a little bit.

I never had to sit through a high-school graduation. When it came time to leave Virgil I. Grissom High behind, I stayed in bed and slept. Then I woke up, read some Nabokov and went to a post-graduation party at a friend's house. I don't remember the party terribly well, so it must have been a blast.

I like the idea of comparative religion classes, but I tremble (metaphorically speaking) at the thought of how they can and probably will be abused.

I disagree that these kids feel left out. They can join the fellowship of believers every weekend and most every week night to have their world view affirmed. Their beliefs are all over the television, 24/7. They can go to Guatemala with the church group and dig sewers for Jesus. Their problem is that they feel a lack of ability to control what other people do, and that's a lesson best learned early on.

On another note, my stepson was valedictorian at his Catholic high school. The principal was a nun, and she had to review his speech before-hand. She said it was a good speech, but suggested the addition of a sentence, something like, "I'd like to thank my parents for giving me the gifts of love, a Catholic education and faith in god."

Well, we had certainly given him love and an expensive education, but we had rarely mentioned god and we chose the Catholic school because it had the best record of getting kids into good colleges. My stepson thanked her, and then gave the speech in which he thanked us for giving him love and the gift of an excellent education.

I could of course be mistaken about us losing the Culture War.

Let's come back in twenty years and see if you're as sanguine then.

I was the Valedictorian in my high school. It would have been perfectly legal for me to say, "I owe my success to understanding that faith and feeling are really bad ways to know anything--and there is no such thing as "higher truths'--facts are the same for everybody and available to anyone with an interest in understanding them."

Somehow I'm sure that those who applaud the Jesus freaks and their "rights to free speech" wouldn't have been so supportive of my rights. I look forward to the day when the atheist student can be as bold and as supported in their views as this delusional valedictorian. Intelligence tends to lead towards atheism. I will be applauding the first one bold enough to speak the truth at her commencement.

Look at how people act. They don't act as if they think God is looking over their shoulder or as if they believe in angels (except a few drivers who drive as if an angel was suspending the laws of physics and probability for them personally).

Okay so now I'm actually listening to this speech, and first of all can I just say, who gives a 17 minute speech at a high school graduation? This is unreal. But my real question is, is she saying "individual soul freedom"? Seriously, this is sick, if I had been there I would have had to walk out, there is no way I could have listened to this for more than two minutes. The clapping is sick too, but I'm just glad I didn't grow up in Mississippi. And her grammar and diction are awful!

God was so busy helping the sports teams and valedictorians in the U.S. that he forgot to help out the poor kids in Darfur.

Scott Hatfield: That's interesting, because at my public school the majority was definitely Christian and the newspaper was run by two of the most prominent atheists in the student body (also two of the most prominent students). Here's your minority-gravitating-to-media thing, except the reverse of how you stated it. Of course, we tried not to be too controversial or they'd have made us stop publishing the thing. Ah, American public school.

by Mississippi I clearly mean Florida...

Anyway I finally got to the end of that and it's in much worse taste than any of the articles describe. Very offensive and just wholly inappropriate for the venue.

I think the only just reward would be for their class valedictorian to get up to the lectern and announce that she's an atheist, and that she then harangues them for 20 minutes on the inanity of religion.

Makes me wish I was a more vocal atheist when I gave my valedictorian speech back in '98.

And in case you're wondering, when I think back I realize that my speech (like many grad speeches) was crap. The message wasn't bad - "don't be a follower: make your own decisions about life and do what makes you happy" - but I wrote it two days before grad so it wasn't particularly well-written.

1st PZ --- remember your error in "reading" the next time a student says "I misunderstood your question!"

2nd I read the question -- and as usual a survey question designed to the biases of the surveyor (I'd say). What does "do you think appropriate" mean? I think what she said was a bunch of deluded bigoted shit .. but I have to be honest .. as a free speech issue - if I am honest I would have to (maybe) vote "yes appropiate" ... Now if the question read "was what she said applicable in a real and diverse world... in otherwords are all Buddists going to Hell?" I think you'd get more even "true believers" siding with "well ... eeeerrrrr ..... (sottovoce) no."

My point -- don't know whether to give up hope yet.

PS I listened on and off while doing chores to a few TV preachers today (surfing to understand the enemy you might say) -- and I have to admit ... they are NOT far removed from the mainstream preachers/priests I knew/know. And also I am absolutely amazed at how absolutely dumb and vacuous they sound. I really really think that kids are still hoping for the fantasy to be true and cling to it a bit -- but recognize dumb this bold and reject being associated with it. Religion is morphing into a more "deist" -- non-sect thing ... sort of like what is happening in Western Europe ... even in Italy. People may still claim a Church .. but as a matter of heritage and not as a matter of unfailing belief really. Educated people for the large part cannot in a modern world listen to the typical religous stuff as played out in the Usa and not say in public .. "eeerrr I think he's talkin figuratively" if they are alone to express what they really think say "shit he is insane and talkin out his ass!"

Let's assume for the moment that most people will go along with whatever's dominant, and smaller proportions work for various ends.

Is there any reason to believe that most people in this society are following rationists or are moving to follow rationalists? My overwhelming impression is that the general appreciation for things like separation of church and state and equal-access laws that permit access (or deny it) equally has waned lower than ever, and that our society is being swallowed by a tidal wave of belief in authority and self-contructed reality. Is there sufficient evidence to conclude that I am wrong?

Cal my friend ... seems that way vis-a-vis mainstream media and current reigning a-holes. But really the wave of Western enlightenment is spreading from Europe ... look at how even "theoretically puritanical" New England is leaning toward liberterian (in best sense) ... I see intimates in midwest while VERY close to church and republican party ... very liberal in thought and clear thinking in many regards .. -- listen Cal .. the western world (even much of South America and Latin America --- read up on Mexico City and how that is morphing for example) is swinging toward a more progressive and secular view. It is only I think because the Rethuglicans need the 30% tyhat really believe the deluded crap that the deluded crap looks so important in our society. Now the SCOTUS being loaded in this short experiment with the "FAR RIGHT" is really SCARY but overall I thing the Western World is swinging toward the true light and freedom of rationality.

OK Cal -- yell at me if you want -- but I do enjoy your comments. Now I brace for your onslaught!! :-)

A high school class's top student took the show at her graduation with a nearly 20-minute speech urging her fellow students to find God

ah, that explains the odd picture of the guy with the long white beard on my milk carton this morning.

I've heard that if missing more than 48 hours, there is usually little chance of recovery.

As far as the Culture Wars in the U.S., things have basically been in a stalemate at worst for the past few decades.

Which isn't too bad, considering that the "Religious Right" are junior partners in the GOP which has dominated the tone of american politics for most of that time.

(And it seems rather bizarre to succumb to despair at the exact moment that the GOP, of which the RR is an important part, may be about to have its biggest crackup since the early 30's.)

Looking at perhaps the three biggest "hot-button" issues of the "Religious Right":

1) Abortion. Marginal gains for the RR. They've gained some ground in the courts, but not much in general public opinion. And they're at a point where pushing much further could backfire.

2) Creationism. Stalemate. The RR seems to be making more noise the past couple of years, but they haven't made any real gains on the ground.

3) Gays. MAJOR setback for the RR. The RR can still bring people out with attacks on gay marriage but the terrain has shifted massively. Even a decade ago "Civil Unions" would have been seen as impossibly radical in most places, now it's put forth as a compromise position.

Which reminds me.

1978 was the first year I was eligible to vote. It was also the year that the "Briggs inititiative" was one of the major issues on the initiative ballot in California. The initiative would have banned homosexuals and anyone "advocating homosexuality" from teaching in the state of California. The initiative failed although (If I recall correctly) it got just above 40% of the vote. Still somewhat depressingly high and the margin would probably have been narrower if Ronald Reagan hadn't opposed the initiative.

Flash forward to 2004. A conservative Republican running for Senate in SOUTH CAROLINA seems to hint that he thinks that gays shouldn't be teachers. And almost immediately backtracks after being criticized for the suggestion.

The RR is losing ground on this issue and it knows it. The rants of the RR about gays have more than a hint of desperation about them.

To sum up, of the three major issues above, you have minor RR gains in one, stalemate in the second, and wholesale RR retreat in the third. Not exactly a picture of triumph for the RR.

Here in Texas the idiots up at the Capitol managed to pass some unnecessary and even quixotic legislation to protect students' freedom of religious expression at school, which also establishes a forum that would allow certain students to tell the rest that they're all going to Hell. I can only imagine what will happen when the first atheist takes advantage of this opportunity. Of course, Governor Perry still has to sign it into law, if he hasn't already.

Man...

When I look back at my own graduation and think how the audience there would have reacted to a speech like that, I am filled with amazement at how different our two cultures are.

In Finland, invoking the name of God in any conversational context is an absolute faux pas. The closest we come in daily life is saying "goddamnit". Anything beyond that is viewed as inappropriate and vulgar, like talking about bodily functions. Of course, we're mostly Lutherans (a denomination so incredibly apathetic and limp-wristed it barely counts as a religion). The only people who appear to be at all passionate about religion around here are Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

That seems to be the general European attitude these days -- religion is a private affair --, except maybe in Poland, but even there I doubt it.

But then, I've never heard of graduation speeches existing in Europe. Do they exist anywhere there?

The RR is losing ground on this issue and it knows it. The rants of the RR about gays have more than a hint of desperation about them.

Parades.
No pro-choice or pro-evolution parade has ever been as colorful, or as aggressive as the Salt Lake City gay pride parade.

[quote]Parades.
No pro-choice or pro-evolution parade has ever been as colorful, or as aggressive as the Salt Lake City gay pride parade.[/quote]

The greatest thing that ever came out of one of those parades was when my deeply religious relatives were discussing my second cousin being one of the marshals!

#39:

Poland is full of really insane fundamentalists. It's on par with the US, if not worse, in terms of Bible worship.

That seems to be the general European attitude these days -- religion is a private affair

How ironic. That's how it was supposed to be here, if one puts a lot of stock in the writings of Jefferson et al.

(This is where I avoid saying anything about pendulums.)

The Culture Wars are being lost because of people like PZ, Dawkins, and most who comment here. Thank Wicca that we have Brayton and his mighty phallus of reason to fight for us.

But then, I've never heard of graduation speeches existing in Europe. Do they exist anywhere there?

I did our high school ('gymnasium') graduation speech in Finland, but I can't for the life of me remember what I talked about. I can guarantee you that God wasn't in it, though ;)

Like many graduation ceremonies this one involves funny hats, although ours are more of the "Love Boat" variety.

Well, nothing like scaring your audience from hell by giving them a foretaste of it. At least that Shannon is clever. ;-)

I want a legal separation from God. He can keep the kids, especially that Shannon chick. I won't even fight for visitation rights.

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, morning, noon, and night. Walk your dog with Jesus, take a shower with Jesus, go on a date with Jesus, wash the dishes with Jesus (it still feels like I'm doing everything), bring Jesus to your workplace (ditto) - you know what, Jesus? I need some space! So I'm off to hell now, people. It looks like a friggin' vacation spot compared to the United States of America!

I'll send you a postcard.

Go to Hell, Kristine.

And er, come back soon. :)

Vox Day makes a good point. That if you don't believe in a soul or hell, why would one care. But I think there is a much bigger point to be made. If an Atheist teaches Atheism to some one who believes, by saying "There is no God", then this would offend some Religious people (not me).

So The Evangilcals who are forcing themselves into government schools better understand they are alowing the opposite view to be forced in as well.

To sum up, the goverment is a harsh master, and Christians such as myself shouldn't be using the power of the State to get their message out, or it will come back and bite them in the ass. Jesus didn't use any secular power, as a matter of fact, he went to the Cross with the power of God and legions of Angels at his finger tips.

The early Church thought they could bring the Kingdom of God to earth through political power, and it to some measure suffocated them with splits, scism, and heresy, because eventualy the faith will yeild to the power. Jesus came to save, not to take over.

Remember that please, my Christian friends, who visit this site.

After I read my valedictory speech at the rehearsal for graduation from a Catholic High School, one of the faculty said, "You didn't have anything about God in there!" So I added a God reference. It was not a conscious omission; I just didn't think about it. Many years later, I'm a little proud of my younger self.

If an Atheist teaches Atheism to some one who believes, by saying "There is no God", then this would offend some Religious people (not me).
The Physicist, I really must comment on the faulty understanding of atheism vs. religious thought. What if I tried to teach aunicornism to unicornists by saying, "There are no unicorns." I wouldn't expect anyone to get terribly offended by that. Stating that there is no god ought to provoke about the same reaction, except that people have some kind of extra-sensitive reaction to that particular observation.

The Physicist, I really must comment on the faulty understanding of atheism vs. religious thought.

Yes I quite understand it, "religous thought" that is. and there is no such thing as atheist thought. True atheism is a negative, not a type of thought. There is no doctrine or principles afforded a negative. While a relgion has doctine, dogma and reverence for a God they believe in and serve. An atheist has no reverence for atheism, so how could one offend this negative?

But then, I've never heard of graduation speeches existing in Europe. Do they exist anywhere there?

Certainly not in Britain. No graduation ceremonies of any kind until you get an advanced degree of some kind. I think it's a very American idea that completing a course of basic education is worth some special celebration.

The Physicist,

Great points about a negative not having a doctrine. I was having a similar conversation with a friend a few weeks ago, and he didn't get it, so I suppose I thought you didn't either.

I guess my aunicornism was really an example from the atheist world view. Possibly a more related example from a theist world view would be denying that, say, my father didn't exist.

If you approached me and told me that my father didn't exist, the conversation would probably be something like this.

"There's my father, over there."

"No he's not. You don't have a father."

"Yes I do. He's right over there. He's the one with the grey hair and mustache. He's drinking a beer."

"No. There's nobody there."

"All people have fathers. It's how our species procreates."

"Nope. Parthenogenesis for you, buddy."

"OK, this is just too strange. Why don't you go somewhere else?"

So, I can see where a person of faith might be a little disturbed by an atheist, but I don't really see why it would be offensive.

On the other hand, if you told me that your dad was much better than my dad, and even though he left town a few years back, he still calls you every night, and he wants you to tell me that I need to behave a certain way, and you've convinced the city council to inconvenience me on certain days of the week, and...

Well, I might be offended by that.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation, and have a great diurnal/nocturnal segment, wherever you are.

So the smartest person in the class was a Christian, and her advice to the class was to learn about Jesus. I can see why that puts your knickers in a bunch, grow up.

With the advent of weighted averages, the title of valedictorian has little correlation to intelligence, only to how many AP and honors classes a person took. I graduated high school last year, and our valedictorian was a shithead whose parents beat him if he didn't get A's- it was the salutatorian who really deserved the honor.

She's no known relation. Jeez...

With the advent of weighted averages, the title of valedictorian has little correlation to intelligence, only to how many AP and honors classes a person took.

Or sometimes not even that. Right after the beginning of senior year, they decided to retroactively drop all our weighting because it had been inconsistently applied in the past few years. So of course, come spring semester, the physics and Spanish IV classes that the co-valedictorians had planned to take were quickly replaced by choir and yearbook. Why fight for the A if you can have it handed to you?

Amazing :-) I agree that the children should be taught some religion for the sake of the society but - forgive me - those who blindly follow something (even the Bible) are idiots! It is a fact that the Bible might (partly and not necessaily) be wrong because of wrong translation. Conclusion - we should be open and always try to use our own judgement.

I agree that the children should be taught some religion for the sake of the society

much like they should be taught about sexually transmitted diseases, for the sake of society.

That seems to be the general European attitude these days -- religion is a private affair --, except maybe in Poland, but even there I doubt it.

But then, I've never heard of graduation speeches existing in Europe. Do they exist anywhere there?