A Cincinnati news weekly, the City Beat, has weighed in on the Creation "Museum". They don't seem to like it.
Here are some of the good quotes from the article.
Gene Kritsky, biologist:
it's almost like intellectual molestation.
Not only is it bad science, it is filled with bad religion, and it's also bad sociology and bad history, too.
Lawrence Krauss, physicist:
This is an institution designed to mis-educate children.
This is nothing but an institutionalized lie and a scientific fraud.
Edwin Kagin, lawyer:
What they are doing is no less an attack on the very way that science and enlightened thought works to produce the modern world. They want to substitute mythology for knowledge. Ignorance is a form of terrorism.
The local paper, The Cincinnati Post:
Frankly, we wish the Genesis museum had been built somewhere else. We wish the 250,000 men, women and especially children expected to visit this year were getting a view of science that comports with what science really knows about the world. Why? Because Greater Cincinnati is trying so hard to market itself, nationally and internationally as a hospitable home for a knowledge economy.
At least, I get the impression it's not a favorable review. Maybe I need to read between the lines a little more carefully.
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If there's a good punk band playing maybe the mueseum isn't that bad. Nah, there's plenty of other places to see Bad Religion without needing to subject myself to creationism.
(Is it wrong that this was the first thing to come to mind when I saw that quote?)
From what I read, it's an "all sides" review. They throw in some from the detractors, some from Ken Ham, and then from someone who doesn't care either way. It's really watered down. Although, considering what I've read in the Cincinnati Enquirer (and I think this is printed by the same company), it's not surprising.
Did you know that Bad Religion got its name from a Noam Chomsky book of the same name?
From the article:
No weeds! Does this mean that all of us who use Arabidopsis as a model organism should thank Adam and Eve for sinning? If not for them, we would have to find a legitimate line of work.
Does anyone know if the museum has a diorama depicting Genesis 6:1-4 where angels fornicate with cavewomen who then give birth to giants? I would love to see that.
I think that Cincinnatti has got a bad rap in the past. The 'gentlemen of the press' there seem quite discerning.
Perhaps they bought good Texas Instruments BS-O-Meters before they were outsourced to China to make way for the DLP race.
Does anyone know if the museum has a diorama depicting Genesis 6:1-4 where angels fornicate with cavewomen who then give birth to giants? I would love to see that.
I think that was planned, but "Adam" had a scheduling conflict and it was put off.
"Ignorance is a form of terrorism."
That's brilliant. Let's spread that idea around.
Let's not. We are about two steps away from having every single noun (and quite a few verbs and prepositions) in the dictionary equated to terrorism.
"Ignorance is a form of terrorism." Uh... maybe if Kagin had said willful ignorace is terrorism, that statement might have had some meaning. Or is the word terrorism just a synonym for any unfortunate condition now days? (Sure this guy isn't a politician?)
"They say our science is bogus," Ham was saying. "But it is exactly the same science that these people study. We all study the same genetics....It's the belief about origins--that's what's different."
So it's all the same science, is it Hammy old boy? I wonder what process god used to determine which animals would be cursed with venom and which wouldn't be when the fall occurred. Why did he choose to make wheat healthily edible and yellow starthistle a noxious invasive species? Where to first to answer these, Dr. Science, the lab or the bible?
Bad brain! Stop thinking! god hates it when you use the talents he gave you!
Terrorism is the new Communism.
No no no PZ, its all about INTERPRETATION! Youre taking the review to LITERALLY ;-)
Glad to see that they are finally getting the kind of attention that they deserve: ridicule!!!
Maybe he meant that ignorance is a form of tourism. I know Bush used to use the words tourism and terrorism interchangeably before someone corrected his pronunciation, so maybe a similar misunderstanding crept in here?
Aren't something like half of the potential tourists in the USA supposed to be within a short drive of the museum? Maybe they're planning a tourist attack!
How about "Ignorance is a form of vandalism"?
And, yeah, I have to thank those original sinners too. I did my Ph.D. research on reproductive adaptations in a voracious predator. (Okay, the ferocious beasts were the size of my little fingernail, but still ....)
LaLa land is a strange place. Plants did not die after having been eaten. Embryos were not alive. As for enterosymbiotes, Termite spirochetes apparently are (were) non-living as their carcasses are digested along with the cellulose they 'thoughtfully' metabolized for their termite host. As for lice and bed bugs, either there was a 'special creation event' for them after the fall, or, blood cells are non-living. Thats it!! We, us, everything was un-living (un-dead)until after the fall and the tree of life- it REALLY did give life. Think I'll grab another apple.
Every time I see someone talk about bad religion I want to ask: How do you tell good religion from bad religion?
I've never yet gotten an answer that wasn't a cop-out.
Science, on the other hand, is all about separating the good science from the bad science: you observe, and experiment, and compare the results to the predictions of each theory.
Theories that don't fit the evidence are wrong science. Continuing to advocate them after there's enough evidence to demonstrate that they are wrong is bad science. The theories that survive the application of this test are good science - at least until the next round of evidence, at which point they may need to be revised or replaced.
Good science never rests on its laurels - but if you intend to challenge it you must come armed with evidence. Evidence is not optional.
Actually, I think you could make a pretty good argument that terrorism is a form of ignorance. It doesn't take that much study of human psychology or history to realize that while terrorism does get results, it hardly ever gets the results the terrorists want, even in the short term. But terrorists aren't exactly known for their sophisticated understanding of psychology and history.
Press release from the Discovery Institute:
Ken Ham's Creation Museum Receives Rave Reviews From Cincinnati Press!
C'mon, tell me that's not how they'll spin it.
To add my $.02 to the ignorance/terrorism debate, how about this:
Militant Ignorance is a form of terrorism!
See, turns that whole militant atheist thing right back at 'em. ;o)
""They're quoting the Bible, which is interesting," he [Ham] said. "They don't believe in the Bible. They have a particular agenda. They defend abortion, they defend gay marriage, they defend embryonic stem cell research. They're against the religious right, which they accuse us of being a part of, which we're not. That's their agenda. It's a front for what I call a liberal agenda." "
The fact that he calls it a "liberal agenda" shows he's a part of the religious right, no matter what he claims. He's politicizing it, as much as anyone else.
The Cincinnati Post:
Oh, please. Cincinnati is well known as the blue-nose capital of Ohio, with scads of religious nuts.
Heck, they even have churchmembers at one of the local state park beaches videotaping those wearing thong swimwear hoping to catch them in some sort of indecent exposure.
Cincinnati deserves its reputation.
"Heck, they even have churchmembers at one of the local state park beaches videotaping those wearing thong swimwear hoping to catch them in some sort of indecent exposure."
Sure. That's why they're doing it.
Every time I see someone talk about bad religion I want to ask: How do you tell good religion from bad religion?
Chris, it is really not that hard: My religion is good, all the other ones are bad.
Yes, it is. And this this is militant ignorance.
But aren't we all glad that the generals in this little war of theirs are of the goofy three stooges variety? Not only will this approach to proselytizing hurt their cause, (it will hurt their cause won't it? Please, please tell me this museum will backfire) but that's 27 million dollars that won't go into promoting their religious agenda in politics.
And that's another thing; I've seen the pictures of the museum--27 million dollars? I think someone is now driving a Bentley. P.Z. had a good idea, these people need to be investigated.
Either that or they're so 'God will provide', gullible that they got took, bad.
It will backfire on them won't it? :(
Ignorance is a form of terrorism
Jebus. Hyperbolize much?
Don't get me wrong, I think the museum is a bad idea just as much as the next guy. But to throw around the word "terrorism" like so much confetti...is just lazy.
PS: Ahcuah is right. Cincinnati is a frighteningly conservative city. It and the creationist museum go together like peas and carrots.
before Adam sinned ... [a]ll creatures were vegetarians.... T. Rex apparently used its sharp teeth to crack open coconuts.... Indeed, there weren't even any weeds.
Why does Ham's God hate plants?
Your equivocation is a form of terrorism.
The meme evolves:
No sympathy for the mass murder of vegetation. Every coconut is a precious snowflake.
As a confirmed carnivore and friend of the weed (not that one, I mean Arabidopsis) I believe that 'Salad is Slaughter!'
How about :
ignorance begets intolorance
intolorance begets terrorism
Holy shit, that's funny. Maybe that's Johnny Rotten meant when he sang, "A cheap holiday in other people's misery!"
Ignorance is a form of terrorism
no no no, Ignorance is Strength
didn't he read Orwell's manual?
:p
Why does Ham's God hate plants?
better yet:
why does Ham's God hate Ham?
he must hate him a great deal to make him look so asinine all the time.
Does anyone know if the museum has a diorama depicting Genesis 6:1-4 where angels fornicate with cavewomen who then give birth to giants? I would love to see that.
the Sci-fi channel made a movie out of that last year or the year before. Tom Bosley plaid a rabbi in that, of all things.
I'll add it to the endless bad sci-fi movie marathon, just for you.
:)
er, PLAYED a rabbi, that is.
gees, where did THAT typo come from.
I don't know but it was funny.
How do we get the daily gate figures? Have they dropped to the hundreds yet? I so long for the image of a dejected, bitter Ken Ham sitting alone in the middle of the $27M egg he laid, the world having left him behind.
"It's a holiday in Cincinnati..."
Why does that paper hate the baby jesus? This is an outrage! Yet another attack on the poor, defenseless christians. quick, somebody call o'reilly.
ahh, here ya go:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421199/
The Fallen Ones
Plot summary for
The Fallen Ones (2005) (TV)
advertisement
Five thousand years ago, in Sumer, the fallen angels had intercourse with human females and their offspring were a race of giants called Nephilim, destroyed by the great flood. The evil angel Ammon mummifies his son Aramis to save him, and hides in hell. In the present days, the archaeologist Matt Fletcher finds Aramis tomb with excavating for building a resort for the entrepreneur Morton. The engineer Angela joins the team, giving support in the diggings. When some workers mysteriously vanish, Morton hires the security force of Ammon to find the missing men. However, his real intention is to resurrect Aramis in the eclipse of the moon and dominate the human race with a new breed of giants.
with a plot like that, and featuring Tom Bosley and Casper Van Dien (perennial bad sci-fi star), what more could you ask for in a bad sci-fi movie??
...and i bet you all thought I was joking.
shame on you.
it's kinda like...Quatermass meets the Apocrypha, as filmed by Alan Smithee.
worse.
it's fascinatingly bad.
OK, I'll put it on my Netflicks list, if you promise me Tom Bosley is not the one fornicating with cavewomen.
I promise.
*crosses fingers*
Ignorance is ... a condition we all share, with individual partial exceptions.
Among a few other things, I'm ignorant of an appropriate word for the next stage beyond ignorance. If knowledge has positive value, and lack of knowledge can be seen as a zero state, then what should we call the negative value of "knowing what ain't so" (or saying what you know ain't so)?
Whatever that measurement might be, the AiG cult pegs the meter.
The English language has a perfectly good word for this sad state of affairs: 'Religion.'
Ignorance is actually a wonderful thing.
Ignorance (for me) drives my quest for knowledge - to eliminate my ignorance.
Luckily for me I see no end to my own personal quest.
Unfortunately for most of us, though, there are many for whom ignorance appears to be their preferred target state, and seek only to maintain stasis.
Very meta moment for me. I pulled the citybeat and used it to explain to several coworkers who "wanted to go to that museum" exactly why it was so horribly, horribly wrong. And I think I actually got through, thanks in large parts to arguments and information I've gotten from this site. Then I emailed the link to PZ and it was posted. (Though from me or others unknown). Awesome.
There's a book by Madeleine L'Engle, Many Waters, about the time before the flood. It features the Nephilim and the angels and how they're bad, and all that. It's been a while since I read it. True enough that those particular verses aren't ones I remember being sermonized much at church.
Not much to add as the comments pretty well say it all. HAM'S FOLLY is STUPIDITY GONE TO SEED and all one can do is hope for a crop failure
@ trcaroll, #30, who said,
"How about :
ignorance begets intolorance
intolorance begets terrorism."
Ahh, there you go, man. You have driven the nail straight into the wood.
See, there are almost no phenomena in the path to human development. OK, maybe learning the secret of fire was one, but:
In my experience, the things that "happen" to us are not isolated manifestations of some cosmic power or whatzit; they are the result of long processes involving our observations of ourselves actually living in this world which reflect, with agonizing slowness. the advancement of comprehension fueled by our thick skulls being slowly penetrated by the notion that we can indeed trust our perception, cognition and acceptance of what really happens.
I am sitting here listening to Carlos Nakai and Peter Kater's "Migration" album which puts a heart-aching musical counterpoint to where we were, where we are and where we might go. Coupling this music with the idea that we (humanity) have come a long way in a long time (yielding wildly differing rates of personal and societal development) brings about both regret for the cumulative time we have wasted on superstition and sheer delight in how quickly and completely really good ideas, rationally grounded, have changed us all.
If I could have one wish fulfilled before I die it would be that Ham, Behe, Egnor and that redheaded preacher who lead the congregation of Revival Tabernacle in 1970 something might somehow wake up one day and say, "Oh, I was wrong about the magic part. The real world is so much more wonderful, even if it is dangerous, and even if the ultimate reward of birth is death. How much more precious life is when it is certain to end."
Life, without music, would be pretty hard to dance to.
Ignorance is normal. (I could be wrong, but I suspect quite a few people around here are ignorant about, say, irregular Mongolian verbs). However:
Parading ignorance is stupid.
Encouraging ignorance is criminal
Imposing ignorance is evil.
#2: considering what I've read in the Cincinnati Enquirer (and I think this is printed by the same company)
Don't insult CityBeat that way!
It is hard not to find this museum ridiculous by most people's standard. I think you may have a problem with Kenny Chesney fans though...
Stephen:
"Parading ignorance is stupid.
Encouraging ignorance is criminal
Imposing ignorance is evil."
Here, here! You aren't a scientist, by any chance, are you? If so, have you signed on with Project Steve?
This is good news. "Ridikulous!"
In other news, Cleveland continues to taunt Cincinnati with the chant:
"Almost Kentucky! Almost Kentucky!"
Bingo.
I cast my vote against the misuse and overuse of the word "terrorism" in service of ones own social / political / religious agenda. Дэмокраси Рокс!
Comedic agendas are exempt.
Comparing my brain to a cell phone and then threatening to cancel my Verizon account is TERRORISM!
Let's build a museum across the street and name it
Purva Bhag: The Creation of the Cosmos
I think the last paragraph of the article, quoting Kritsky, sums up the whole ID/creationism attack on science pretty well in my view.
"You can't prove faith," Kritsky began. "If you've got a problem with your faith, if you've got to distort science in order to prop up your reasons for believing, you need to talk to your rabbi, your priest, your minister, and then talk to yourself and look at yourself on the inside. Because if that's what you have to do, distort science, then your faith's not there. And that's what this museum ultimately says."
Couple things;
City Beat is Cincinnati's well-intended but not quite adequately realized attempt at the Village Voice.
The Post and The Enquirer are published by the same folks.
The very prosecutor who hounded Larry Flynt went on to become- and is still, the county sheriff in these parts.
If people here are laughing at it here, Ham's $27M joke will slay in the civilized world.
Oh, and don't forget, the mayor banned Jim Morrison and the Doors from performing here in the '60's...