The Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden and the Creation Museum have made a joint marketing agreement and are selling "combo tickets" to get into both attractions for one price.
The Cincinnati Zoo is promoting an anti-science, anti-education con job run by ignorant creationists.
Unbelievable.
Here's a little bit about the Cincinnati Zoo. I've highlighted a few key words and phrases.
Part of the public school system in Cincinnati since 1975, the Zoo hosts a four-year college prepatory program - Zoo Academy. The Cincinnati Zoo is proud to serve as the leading non-formal science educator in Southwest Ohio. Over 300,000 students participate in the Zoo's educational programs annually.
The Zoo has long been successful at captive breeding, starting with trumpeter swans and sea lions back in the 1880s. The Lindner Center for Conservation and Research of Endangered Wildlife (CREW) was founded in 1986 to strengthen the tradition. The research conducted here has made the Cincinnati Zoo an international leader in the protection and propagation of endangered animals and plants around the world.
Rated by peer zoological parks as one of the best zoos in the nation, the Cincinnati Zoo continues to set the standard for conservation, education and preservation of wild animals and wild spaces. Over 1.2 million people visit the Zoo annually. The Zoo features more than 500 animal and 3,000 plant species, making it one of the largest Zoo collections in the country.
I believe the Cincinnati Zoo has betrayed its mission and its trust in a disgraceful way, by aligning themselves with a creationist institution that is a laughing stock to the rest of the world, and a mark of shame to the United States. I urge everyone to contact the zoo; write to their education and marketing and public relations departments in particular and point out the conflict between what they are doing and what their goal as an educational and research institution ought to be.
While you're at it, it might be even more effective to contact the newsroom at the Cincinnati Enquirer and the Cincinnati weekly, City Beat. Let's raise a stink and give these guys the bad PR they deserve.
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What are they going to do next? Build an ark?
Sent off an email to several family members in Ohio, and will put together something to send the zoo directly.
By the way, second email link is broken.
If the zoo is part of the public school system there, as you have indicated in the post, this also appears to be a clear cut violation of the constitutional separation of church and state. Somebody should sue the hell of these morons for even considering this kind of blatant endorsement of creationism. I would if it was my kid going to school there.
Wow.
I'm a University of Cincinnati student and my family has season passes at the Zoo. I'm aghast. I never would have expected this.
I'll definitely put in my two cents...
shackled beasts and shackled brains, all for one low price.
Augh! This is the stuff nightmares are made of. The Cincinnati Zoo has officially aligned themselves with an organization that writes things like the following:
"Walk through the Cave of Sorrows and see the horrific effects of the Fall of man. Sounds of a sin-ravaged world echo through the room. Finally, see the sacrificial Lamb on the cross, and the hope of redemption."
This is stunning. Of all of critical thinking's various fronts, I assumed creationism was the one superstition that science had chased back into the dark ages. Zoos are what fostered my interest in biology and natural sciences!
I've tried starting this a few times...I can't even begin to express how idiotic this is. Do the people at the Cincy Zoo have any common sense at all? Can they really be this clueless?
I don't know which is more moronic, this or the Air Force thing 2 stories down the page. Absolutely disgusting.
I thought that the creation museum wasn't doing so well financially. So except for promotion of creationism, I don't know why the cincy zoo get involved with them?
Please don't just bitch about this in the comments sections. Take 3 minutes to write an email to the zoo and tell them how idiotic this idea is.
This is just awful. Anyone who has a blog should be sure to make posts about this malarkey, too.
I sent a message to the Zoo's PR department. I am also sending an email to the Cincinnati Enquirer and Citybeat newspaper.
havoc: I sent an e-mail to the News Record suggesting they have someone write an opinion article on this. Maybe if more students would join in requesting this, they will write about this in Wednesday's issue.
I sent them an E-mail explaining what the creation museum teaches (basically flintstones) in case they weren't aware and said:
"It's frankly disturbing and shameful that the Cincinnati Zoo would wish to so thoroughly destroy its hard-earned reputation as a promoter of public science education by jumping in bed with such a blatantly anti-science organization."
I sent one copy to their public relations address and one to the CREW (scientists).
Disgusting.
And I was just beginning to get rid of my headache.
Here's what I shot out:
I hope that works.
Ooops... Botched my blockquoting mojo!
It's late, and I've been drinking.
Here's mine:
---
To whom it may concern:
As a former resident of the Cincinnati area and a visitor to the fantastic Cincinnati Zoo, I find the news of a "joint package" between your zoo and the appalling Creation Museum actually makes me physically angry. How can a museum of such stature lower itself to even RECOGNIZE a museum of such crack-pottery?
Such anti-science and purely religious tripe needs to be flat-out ignored by anyone serious in the scientific field, and especially to those educating children. In your position over the years, I'm very VERY surprised that a connection with the Creation Museum was even considered.
Find out who set up this combo package and fire them. This is a corruption to your zoo, the Cincinnati area and to the children that are about to fall into this trap.
I just sent a "letter of concern" using tactful, polite language. I'm sure their inboxes will have enough scorn from the rest of the world.
A suspect few of my fellow Ph.D. candidates from Cincinnati were a little less cordial in their correspondences, as their state tax dollars are no doubt helping this madness.
Separation of church and state? Meh, who needs it.
Strangely, I don't seem as disturbed by this as everyone else responding so far. If someone is the type of person that would be interested in visiting the creation museum then likely getting them into the zoo as well (where they can be exposed to real biology and science) is a huge benefit. Of course, there is still the big issue of the "association" with the creation museum so for that reason I'd still have to be against the entire concept in the end.
Well, let me set aside all the intellectual responses for the moment, and just say........the Cincinnati Zoo can KISS MY ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(okay, I'm done now)
I sent them this:
Anthony #20:
Yeah, I thought about that. But I think the damage from credibility the Creation Museum will get out of this far outweighs the benefit of getting creationists into a real zoo
@#23:
Also, they gave the museum something they can quote in PR blurbs
"Come visit the newest partner in the Cincinnati Zoo system, the Creation Museum!"
That's no good.
A pro-science zoo and an anti-science museum, all for one low price. This could only happen in Idiot America.
Anthony, if what you said was likely, then I would agree with your take on it. However, the problem is that more likely, as happens at some museums now, you will have organised trips where the 'guide' will be a creationist putting their own spin on what the visitors see. Thus few if any of those visitors will hear or see the real story, only a creationist spun version. Not only that, they will spin the marketing agreement as an endorsement of their creationism. Why do you think they are so eager to sneak ID into science, partly to have some of the respect many hold science in rub off on them and hence appear to validate their beliefs.
I have pictures of myself at the Cincy zoo when i was 2 years old and almost every year since.
Of all the crazy stories i have read on Paul's blog this is the first one to actually make me feel like i have been in a car accident or hit by a ton of bricks.
I wrote a note to the Cincinnati Zoo's education link:
Anyone know if they get a significant amount of funding from private sources? I'm guessing the kind of people who donate to zoos aren't the kind of people who would be happy about this...
This kind of creeping, fungus-quality to ID "science" is what is the most deplorable thing about it. If it was adamantly its own creature, then it would be simple enough to dismiss it, which is our entire point. This kind of symbiosis is a perversion of any intellectual institution.
"Somebody should sue the hell of these morons for even considering this kind of blatant endorsement of creationism. I would if it was my kid going to school there." -SECONDED
Pfft! This is the Creation Museum here. The zoo animals are an order of magnitude or two *freer* than the minds at the other place. ;-)
I actually sent an email complaining. See? I'm not *totally* useless. Just mostly.
I wrote this (don't know how to put the fancy line next to it.) I sent this to the zoo and the news people all at once. Sorry, I know it's long, but I think it sounds pretty good:
Hi there,
Today I heard that the Cincinnati Zoo has struck a deal with the much-ridiculed Creation Museum. They're now selling combo tickets! I'm sending this to all of you at once, thought I'd kill a few birds with one stone.
Cincinnati Zoo, you should be ashamed of yourselves. In your own words, you are "the leading non-formal SCIENCE educator in Southwest Ohio"* and yet you are actively promoting ANTI-SCIENCE by associating yourselves with the Creation Museum.
For those that aren't in-the-know, the Creation Museum** is a museum dedicated, essentially, to the book of Genesis. Lovely idea in theory, but in practice this museum is an insult to the scientific method. It shamelessly denies the evolution of life, and an Earth older than 6,000 years, both for which there is a multitude of evidence. It tells its visitors that the planet REALLY completely flooded just a few thousand years ago (despite evidence to the contrary), that a 600 year old man REALLY built a giant ark and REALLY loaded up two (or seven, depending which story you read) of every single animal on the planet (despite the glaring physical impossibilities), and that dinosaurs and humans REALLY lived together in harmony (despite evidence to the contrary). I could go on, and on, and on. Don't even get me started with the triceratops with a saddle on its back!!!
A zoo. In cahoots with a museum that's modeled a dinosaur wearing a saddle. A SADDLE. Are you starting to see the incompatibility?
This museum is the epitome of anti-science. There isn't a shred of science to it, and that's exactly what's so repulsive about this combo ticket deal. Any scientific institution, like the Cincinnati Zoo, that associates itself with such an anti-scientific entity does NOT deserve to call itself a "leading science educator"*! A place of learning that annually welcomes 1.2 million visitors and 300,000 students to its educational programs has an obligation to not lead those impressionable minds astray, and to provide those students with FACTS!
I'm appalled, SO appalled. Cincinnati Zoo, your good reputation once preceded you. You have effectively destroyed any and all credibility associated with your name.
Enquirer and City Beat, I certainly hope you'll look into this matter further. I know I'm not the only one gawking in disbelief!
Sincerely,
Cincinnati Zoo Boycotter.
* http://www.cincinnatizoo.org/about/history.html
** http://www.creationmuseum.org/
As a life long citizen of greater Cincinnati, I apologize. Angry emails are on the way.
Letter sent. This is just disgusting. That they can refer to the Creation Museum as a "fantastic attraction" on their web site is like a slap in the face of anyone seriously interested in the descent and conservation of wildlife.
Fuck the creationists.
I can't seem to find anything on the Zoo's ticket sales website about this partnership and ticket combo. I followed a link to the ticket combo on the creation museum website, and it looks similar, but I'm pretty sure its not actually affiliated with the zoo.
creation museum ticket link:
https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org/mainstore.asp?vid=0
Cincinnati Zoo ticket website:
http://www.cincinnatizoo.org/tickets.html
Am I overlooking something?
"It shamelessly denies the evolution of life"- Wendy. Not true, the believe in SUPER evolution, that the hundereds or thousands of "kinds" (read "bullshit semantics") proliferated into all the different Orders, families, genus[es?] and species in only a couple hundred years.
But onto less depressing things: COWBOY BEBOP (ironically, it's gateway shuffle lol)!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zDfxZ4NcE
(sorry in advance for the derailment this may cause)
Did you know....
Not only was Charles Darwin the first leader of the Soviet Union, but Sir Issac Newton was a Field Marshal in Napoleon Bonaparte's army?
Gregor Mendel led the Vietcong's guerilla activities?
Niels Bohr was both Jack the Ripper AND Count Dracula?
Damnit, that lost post was suppose to go here .
That's what I get for trying to make jokes at 2 in the morning.
I call bullshit on the partnership/ticket combo. After comparing the websites and they way the tickets are purchased, I think its fake. I'd say we should bring this to the zoo's attention, but I guess they'll figure it out pretty quickly in the morning.
#35 - Interesting. But the terms of use link at the bottom of the creationist ticket page includes this:
Which really seems to make it zoo affiliated. Could whoever did this be trying to hide it out of sight from everyone but the creationists?
Yeah, the purchase procedure on the two websites is different. The regular zoo tickets purchasing takes you to a 'https://secure2.gatewayticketing.com/cincyzoo/' address and asks for your login information. The one with the creation museum tickets is 'https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org' and only asks for your billing information.
I wonder if perhaps some sneaky creationist working at the zoo might be trying to pull it off without official approval? Jennifer Carskadan named in the customer service link on the creationist ticket page (who ISN'T mentioned on the official zoo contact list, they have departmental emails instead of individuals) would be a good suspect.
@#35 and @#39: that is indeed a bit odd. But both pages use the cincinnatizoo.org domain, so they can't be unconnected.
e-mails sent.
Pretty disgusting money-grab, and I have a hard time believing that this would make them all that much in the way of revenue. Not enough pieces of silver to justify the cost of the zoo's metaphorical soul I'd think.
Wonder what sort of response the zoo has to such e-mails? Somewhat personalized responses by some minimum-wage employee? Regular " we appreciate your input and will work hard to address your concerns" form letters? Nothing at all?
Inquiring minds want to know, and with luck, I'll find out =D
Going to https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org gives you a page with the following text:
"Welcome to the Cincinnati Zoo Online Discount Program for Corporations, Associations, and Schools. This is where Corporations and Associations can purchase admission to the Zoo and where Schools can make reservations for a Zoo Field Trip."
If you click on the "Buy Tickets" button on the right hand side it goes to a "Mainstore" page with the Zoo/Museum combo.
I am not sure if this an official combo offered by the zoo, or just that the museum is simply taking advantage of a discount program (and somehow got to put its own text on the page).
I guess a reply from the zoo might set the whole thing straight.
My 2¢: a letter to the CZ's PR dept. cc'd to the Cincinnati Enquirer and City Beat.
This is rather like the NAACP offering a joint membership deal with the Aryan Brotherhood. Under its former director Ed Maruska the Cincinnati Zoo achieved great renown for taking on many small, uncharismatic and "difficult" species, and having remarkable success with them. The current director has no background in science -- as is the trend, he is from a "marketing" career.
If this is not bogus, it would be grounds for a request to the AZA to re-evaluate the accreditation of the zoo.
Most things we laugh at in here are just that,,,"laughable," but this is truly sick and deserves our full attention.
I say we make this a major mission for us to stop, and/or find the ones responsible so we can allow their actions to ruin their names. People need to be accountable for this effin' crap.
OK...back to sleep..
Bad zoo! No biscuits!
Alright, I know that the economy is having trouble, but...what? Does the Zoo have some sort of weird nepotism going on? That's got to be the only explanation for this sort of behavior, how else could they agree to this sort of weird bedfellows?
@Feynmaniac, "Niels Bohr was both Jack the Ripper AND Count Dracula?" Just wait until Schroedinger and Dirac hear about what the cat has been up to...
I believe the Cincinnati Zoo has betrayed its mission and its trust in a disgraceful way, by aligning themselves with a creationist institution.
Quite frankly PZ, if you can celebrate Christmas as you do, a holiday you claim not to be religious but love to celebrate it because of the materialism aspect of it...lol...Then the Cincinnati Zoo is basically doing almost the same thing, they are also celebrating X-mas by marketing it which is why they have a joint ticket price with the Creation Museum.
No offense, but this is what happens when high profile folks start blaring on the atheism trumpet as if it is the only note you have. I'm looking at you, P.Z. Myers. About 80 percent of religious people believe in the truth of biological evolution. Saying that all people who believe in any religion are idiots and fascists splits off 80 percent of the supporters of biological evolution.
Michael #49:
Uhh... no. Nobody is saying anything about the zoos ability to celebrate christmas, have you read anyone here complain about their festival of lights? We're complaining that they're partnering up with a place that spreads deliberate, intentional anti-science lies to further their religious agenda. The issue here is the extreme lack of quality in the Creation Museum as an educational resource.
"basically doing almost the same thing"
Hah. Basically, almost, eh? You don't even believe what's coming out of your own mouth.
I am so looking forward to reading about Douglas Watt having his head handed back to him later this the morning.
Oh, check this Michael guy's link, he's a creationist troll. That explains the dishonesty. Quote from his blog:
Ever heard of tidal heating?
Not to mention, how the heck does 'the hypothesis of evolution' even factor in to that reasoning?
Douglas Watts @ #50:
You're talking out of your ass. Please provide a quote where PZ said something to the effect of:
"all people who believe in any religion are idiots and fascists"
Fact check. Where's the citation for the silly claim?
Douglas Watts #50
Wait a minute, which is it? Is it 80 percent of religious people believe in evolution, or 80 percent of the supporters of evolution are religious?
You're just making stuff up, aren't you?
jason (OT), wouldn't tidal heating be an awesome source of energy?! Just imagining a setup on IO that collects geothermal energy! It would be nearly an endless source of energy!
Wattson (yes, you are Watt's son): anything relavent to say? There was no claim that all religious persons are idiots, and i can think of one person in particular: John Shore -who daily reaches across the isle from imaginary land to atheists, and is a smart person to boot- that completely icnonographs (i know, probly a made up word) what you intend to say [http://johnshoreland.com/]. PZ made no such slur on this post. Give it a rest.
Michael at 49
Christmas is a pagan festival that the Christians stole - it has nothing to do with Jebus whatsoever. PZ is as free to celebrate the winter solstice as anyone else. PZ is free to celebrate anything, and so are you.
So...if we say that religion is stupid and harmful, then respected biological institutions will start kowtowing to it? I don't quite follow you, Doug.
Michael's just spouting his usual free association drivel, and laughing at himself again, he's best ignored.
From canada
You ain't seen nothing yet. The future is staring at you. You will not be able to resist the continuing organizing of creationism with its healthy public opinion numbers to have its place at the table of origin discussions before ones countryman where everybody shares in the prestigous stuff of the land. The zoo is a public achievment in reality.
Yes it gives public credibility to creationism by a respected place of natural world knowledge.
It is credible because so many americans in their hearts believe its credible. Your democracy is built on the idea that what the people think does matter. Right or wrong. Its respect with the intelligence of the common man.
Just as these people must respect professions who engage in and get paid for researching the truths of origins. Respect but contend on the points where there is error.
Complaining about this Zoo is a spirit of censorship, control of dissent , and dictactorish.
it won't destroy evolution. Yes evolution however evolution will go to the ashheap of history.
Dude, the religious right is killing th GOP, they are in the dust of the rest of american society. With no power, these guys will soon be nothing more than a few rascist Southern Xenophobes.
i have three parting words for you R.B :Barack Obama. Secularist.
Yep, it was only a matter of time until Robert Byers entered this thread. Retard is as retard does.
oh, and last time i checked, 20% wasn't a majority, stupid. Additionally, anti-intellectual psuedoscience is intolerable and has no place in any learnig environment. Preiod.
I sent in my email. Looks like some idiot has started a competing email campaign.
http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2008/12/sleazy-pzs-attack-on-cincinnati-zoo.html
oh kel did you hear John A davidson is back on (aardvarcheology)? I'm not sure what can be done, but i feel it to be good to note that he isn't far away, and that the alarm ought to be sounded.
By the by, i commented on that blog, Steve. We'll see if it get's through (you deny dogma but Biblical literalism is fine? have some intellectual honesty, for GOD's sake!).
it's time like this Steve, that i really wish i had hacker friends... seriously. These people should be e-bombed. totally erased from the internets. With any luck, people like this would be unable to even get thier internet up and running. "If 'if' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we all would have a merry Christmas."
Robert Byers, here's something about The Imminent Demise of Evolution for you to ponder.
#64
Oh no, it's Larry Fafarman, Holocaust revisionist extraordinaire!
BWAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Oh well, that's one entire letter in support of the combo tickets. Carry on.
I've got to put down my mob torch for a second, just to ask - could it be that the Cincinnati Zoo has decided to do this as a way of *combating* creationist indoctrination?
IE, if you're going to take your kids to the Creation Museum, you might end up going to the Zoo too - to see some *actual* science in action.
Sorry - seems this was already addressed in comment #20.
*picks up the torch again*
John at 67: oooh, pretty background. Hey, wasn't "the end is nigh" an equally popular phrase? Doesn't that mean that these people expect the end of the universe before evolution is dispoven? Ha HA ha HA Ha hA!
Shaden: wow this dumb galoot really gets a hard on for PZ, huh? Creeeepy. It's like a cyber-stalker. What a lifeless mooch lol.
To Robert Byers #60,
I don't know how you keep slipping out of your straight jacket and going on the Asylum's computers, but beware. The guards will catch on eventually.
Also, please stop starting your posts with "from Canada", it makes us all look real bad.
Oh I don't know, maybe its not all bad, perhaps the zoo is getting a unicorn exhibit. That would make it worth a visit!
You appear to be suggesting that most religious people will abandon good science if some of its proponents disagree with their religious beliefs...
Sodding blockquotes. Last sentence is mine, of course.
Wait...when did PZ ever say he celebrated Christmas "because of the materialism aspect?"
And what the hell does a combo ticket promotion between these two entities have anything to do with Christmas?
Sorry Michael, but your post fails on every level.
Sent a message to all three. What a joke!
I live in Ohio and make regular trips to the Cinci Zoo. I wrote them a polite letter pointing out that linking up with the anti-science, anti-education creation museum seems contrary to their mission statement of conveying knowledge. I also noted that Zoos in Indy and Columbus are just as close and will be getting my business now.
In the past I have been a frequent Cincinnati Zoo visitor. I have had annual memberships for myself and/or bought them for others. I believe in supporting the research and education programs conducted by your institution. However, since you have chosen to align with the Creationist 'Museum', which is completely anti-science and devoted to misinforming people, I cannot in conscience support the zoo any longer. It makes me sad that in an age when science education in this country is increasingly important and being increasingly neglected that you would choose to betray your supporters by aligning with and helping to legitimize a 'museum' teaching that animals have not evolved, that the earth is six thousand years old, and other lies that make science education harder. Shame on you.
Jason Eyink
Douglas Watts #50,
Untrue.
Here are some figures from Pew research from July 2006, for the 4 largest groups :
Humans and other lving things have evolved over time
in () : Humans and other living things existed in present form only
Evangelicals 27% (65%)
Mainline protestants 62% (32%)
Catholics 59% (33%)
_________________
Average religious 44% (48%)
Secular 83% (12%)
National 51% (42%)
So it's not 80% of religious people believe in Evolution in the US, but 44% only. Still the national average is just above 50% thanks to secular groups (non believers, secular jews, unitarians, humanists...) who believe in Evolution overwhelmingly.
So, I wouldn't say that all religious people in the US are ignorants, idiots and fascists, but at least 48% of them.
The good news is that secular groups are steadily growing as a % of total population (18% in 2007), and religious steadily decreasing, so that the 51% figure of Evolution supporters should continue to increase in the future, whereas the 42% figure for creationsts should continue to decrease.
If the trend continues, we should reach 60% Evolution supporters and 35% creationists within the next 10 to 20 years, gradually converging towards what we observe in the rest of the developped world.
I sent them this (with copies to the newspapers):
"I have recently learnt that the Cincinnati Zoo is offering a 'combo' ticket giving entry to both the zoo and to the Creation Museum.
This is a very exciting and far-sighted development and I would welcome the opportunity to put the following proposal to you:
I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.
As I am in the UK it would probably not be reasonable to offer a similar 'combo' ticket since the majority of your patrons would be unable to take advantage of it. However I have noticed that you have a reciprocal list of attractions and would welcome the opportunity to have the Fairy Kingdom included.
We are situated in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, a very popular destination for visitors from the USA, and I look forward to welcoming many Cincinnati Zoo membership cardholders.
Along side the regular entrance fee discount I would also like to offer visitors the opportunity to purchase, at a 30% discount, a 100g bag of genuine Fairy Dust. As I am sure you know Fairy Dust has many uses and will be especially effective if sprinkled in to the eyes before visiting the Creation Museum."
Jonathan Hartley, do you organise trips from Bristol, I could do with a day out :)
One small problem with your offer though, as I imagine creationists might have a problem with fairy dust.
I sent this to the PR department:
Anything to spread stupid lies. Geez...
PZ, take it easy!!! it's not a "mark of shame"... you guys still have the death penalty too... the rest of us here in the EU are thoroughly jealous of how you have been able to hang on to middle age practices and myths for so long...
keep up the good work!!!
oh wait...
Dear Sir/Madam,
In the 'About' section on your website, you say you are 'part of the public school system', 'an international leader' in research into the protection of endangered wildlife, and 'one of the best zoos in the nation', setting the standard for 'education and preservation of wild animals and wild spaces'.
Do you not see it as a betrayal of this commendable mission, that your museum has allied itself with the Creation Museum of Petersburg, Kentucky? This directly conflicts with your ideals of setting the standards for education and scientific research - the Creation Museum is explicitly anti-science and anti-education. They dismiss all of the scientific advancements of the past 200 years and instead think their Holy Book is the best way of understanding the natural world. This is a betrayal of everything the Cincinnati Zoo should stand for, a declaration of support for anti-science, and a violation of the First Amendment's separation clause, since you are part of the public school system.
If you wish to regain any sort of credibility at all in the science and education sectors, you will immediately cancel your partnership with the Creation Museum, and denounce them for the frauds and charlatans they are.
I should also inform you that I have sent copies of this email to the Cincinatti Enquirer and City Beat.
Lewis Black on the Creation Museum.
Thank Dog I live in England. We have more than our fair share of religious/anti-science loonies but something like this could never happen.
For those of us that live in Ohio, this is sad, but totally not surprising.
Cincinnati Zoo : EPIC FAIL.
Their decision is so bad it doesn't even deserve to be called "Wrong".
This is quite a contrast to the announcement in September. From http://www.uc.edu/darwin/coming_events/default.html
Perhaps we should send some disapproving mail to Thane Maynard as well.
Shameful, cretinous - fire the IDiots who thought this was a good idea
Maybe we could start a trend to have scientists focus their attention on the Denver zoo,leaving Cincinnati's to slowly go the way of the dodo.The last time i was at the Denver zoo i noticed tidbits of evolutionary info at almost every stop.In fact it was quite refreshing.
Allow me to also apologise for R.B. -- really, we Canadians aren't a bunch of morons like him.
I sent an email to the Zoo. Short and sweet it was, and polite, in typical Canadian style. :P
I can't even begin to understand how anyone at the zoo would have thought that this was a good idea.
Happy Solstice, everyone!
dear cincinnati zoo and botanical garden,
while i maintain fond memories of walking thru your memorable animal habitats, listening to concerts by my musical favorites on your grounds, and walking around your lit up winter wonderland with my family, i will no longer visit your park if you insist on contradicting your own goals by associating with the creationist museum thru a joint-ticket program.
you have been a part of the public school system of cincinnati since 1975, which i think is wonderful. but i also think that with such involvement comes responsibility. you have the responsibility to educate and inform students and the community about the natural world - without any influence from religion of any kind (see: separation of church and state, introduced by thomas jefferson).
if you would like to collaborate with organizations in cincinnati in order to broaden your community outreach, why not contact the well-known cincinnati museum center, whose facilities you already use?!?!
collaborating with the creationist museum promotes their false message about the natural ways of the universe and contradicts your own vision statement. as stated succinctly by theoretical physicist lawrence m. krauss:
"There are many and varied ways that modern science has confirmed the history of the Universe, the Solar System, the Earth, and Life on Earth. All of these methods, while independent, are in agreement and they ALL tell us that Life, the Earth, and the Universe are many orders of magnitude older than 6,000 years. There is no scientific room for errors of this many orders of magnitude. It would be like measuring the distance between New York and Los Angeles, and determining it was less than 1 inch. In order to agree with a Young Earth Creationist picture, essentially every facet of modern science - on which we base every aspect of modern technology, our vehicles, our society - would have to be completely incorrect, implying almost everything we base our modern lives on would not work as it does."
please reconsider your recently acquired collaboration, as i would very much enjoy attending your "fesitval of lights" program again one day. not only am i contacting you today, but i'm also writing to the cincinnati enquirer, and city beat magazine, in hopes of raising awareness of this important issue.
a concerned (former) cincinnatian,
amanda
Me again...sorry for the extra post but I just saw the site mentioned by #64.
I added a comment, but it is held pending approval of the blog owner. Any bets as to whether or not it will be published?
You know,
every time I think "thats it,cant get any worse from here on in in the US",bloody PZ proves me wrong.
First today I read about Darwin and Marx running Russia and Creobot brainwashing of soldiers,and I thought,yup,thats it,thats the worst ive ever read from those freaks.
And now this,a Zoo cooperating with the " Humans riding dinosaurs" folks.WTF??
ShadenFreud @ 87,
you saved my day,thanks !
That is absolutely disgusting.
I know it's a bad thing, but I'm pretty excited about the partnership. I've always wanted to go to the creationist museum and see how long I could keep a straight face. (I hear no one with more than two brain cells has made it past 17 seconds.)
Going to the zoo afterward -- for free! -- would be like having my cake and eating it too.
Ugh. I grew up in Cincinnati. Lived there again for five years after my first divorce & met my second wife there.
I will definitely chime in. This is revolting.
I'm betting there is a creationist mole that has infiltrated the Zoo's marketing department. Perhaps the Head of the Zoo, itself.
Sent two emails: one to their general email account, and the other to Jennifer Carskadan, at Jennifer.carskadan@cincinnatizoo.org.
My general message of both emails was asking how they can align themselves with a group who opposes evolution, and asking them to cease offering the combo ticket deal.
From the Cincinnati Zoo's webpage:
"Save more with our new Combination Attraction Ticket:
Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden and Creation Museum The Creation Museum, located seven miles west of the Cincinnati Airport, presents a walk through history. Designed by a former Universal Studios exhibit director, this state-of-the-art 70,000 square foot museum brings the pages of the Bible to life."
A "walk through history"?! That's outright endorsement of the creation museum's lies!
Dear Fellow Educator,
As a public school science teacher, I am shocked by the offer of a Cinicinnati Zoo and Creation Museum combo ticket. The creation museum exists for the sole purpose of undermining people's understanding of the natural world because of their delusion that believing evolution leads to amorality and eternal damnation. How is this aligned with the educational mission of the Cinicinnati Zoo? Associating the zoo with the Creation museum is shockingly stupid, and probably illegal. I hope that everyone at the zoo who has an interest in education will demand that this promotion of anti-science be ended immediately.
Gavin Polhemus, Ph.D.
High School Physics Teacher
Although I doubt any of you question the horrors of The Creation Museum, I myself took a trip down to Kentucky to check it out. It was WORSE than I had expected, and when I expected utter crap that's certainly an indicator of how bad it is.
I wrote about it here if anywhere cares to read:
http://fabulouslyinthecity.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-trip-to-creation-mus…
Outraged email sent, phone call will follow. I am (well, WAS) a card holding member; I will not return to this zoo if they continue this bullshit. I expected much more of this zoo. I already blasted Newport Aquarium when they offered special rates for church groups.
So... has anyone considered writing a letter to the Creation Museum to complain they are affiliating themselves with an institution that promotes evolution and the theory that the earth is > 6000 years old? Not even just for fun? :)
Maybe it might inspire some church folk to go to the zoo and see some interesting things for themselves. If the zoo is good shouldn't evolution be everywhere? I dunno. Anyway I agree that it's shameful and promotes anti-science but perhaps this 'plan' will backfire on the creationists and instead of getting people to the *cough* museum it'll instead get people into the zoo.
This is probably just another crazy marketing ploy on the part of the zoo, but part of me would like to believe it's crazy like a fox. Most of the people who would visit the Creation Museum are probably not the types who would otherwise be exposed to real science. By luring them in with this special offer, maybe the zoo is using this opportunity to expose them to at least a little modern biological thought? I kind of doubt it, but one can always hope...
With apologies to Paul Simon...
Someone told me
Something's happening at the zoo.
I can't believe it,
I can't believe it's true.
Mmmmm. Mmmmm. Whoooa. Mmmmm.
It's a light and tumble trip, up
From Kentucky to the South;
Cross the bridge to Cincinnati
And the zoo.
But you can buy a combo ticket
Save nine bucks a pop,
And the animals will love it
If you do.
If you do, now.
Something tells me
Something's happening at the zoo.
I can't believe it,
I can't believe it's true.
Mmmmm. Mmmmm. Whoooa. Mmmmm.
The monkeys love their Darwin, but
Giraffes are unevolved,
And the elephants are stupid but
They're kind.
Creationists are skeptical
Of changes in their cages,
But they're quite fond of intelligent design.
Dragons are reactionaries,
Unicorns are missionaries,
Weasels plot in secrecy,
And read their bibles frequently.
What a gas! You gotta come and see
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
At the zoo.
Any PNC Bank account holders may want to write to PNC about this (the bank is featured as a sponsor on the zoo's combo ticket web page https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org/mainstore.asp?vid=0
I don't know if politics has much to do with this, but Cincinnati is the reddest big city in Ohio, and so this would be at least somewhat explanatory. But I don't know how political zookeepers get. Perhaps the majority that run this zoo are avid fans of Sunday morning preparations...
This is certainly an undeserved PR shot in the arm for ignorance.
The Elf #101 wrote: "I'm betting there is a creationist mole that has infiltrated the Zoo's marketing department. Perhaps the Head of the Zoo, itself."
That reminds me, does anyone know what happened in the Proteomics-Warda-Han episode?
Were any of the editors outed as creationist moles? Michael Dunn, the Editor-in-Chief, perhaps?
I sent along a short letter to the marketing department:
Zoos are supposed to promote science, not religion. The Creation "Museum" does nothing but promote myth as science. I'm sad to hear that an institution like the zoo which is supposed to be devoted to science would behave in such a manner.
Laurie Mann
Frequent Cincinnati Visitor
Oh come on, if the Cincinnati Zoo can get the creationists to supply them with a (non-avian) dinosaur, the collaboration will be well worth while.
To be fair, though, they should have demanded the dinosaur before any assocation with creationists.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Hey, maybe the curators of the Creation Museum are going to be the new exhibit at the zoo.
Kansas, we have you in check.
What's your next move?
I am so ashamed of my city right now.
#91 - I would be surprised if Thane "The 90-second Naturalist" Maynard would support this since he's an avid promoter of conservation and zoological education. Perhaps he'd be a good person to ask for some explanation.
To the Canadian readers of this blog:
I wish to start a petition to get Robert Byers to stop indicating he is writing "from Canada" in his each of his pathetic, muddled, difficult-to-read comments.
His comments do more damage to Canada's image than a Mountie using the Canadian flag as a cape while raping a beaver at a Tim Horton's.
Any PNC Bank account holders may want to write to PNC about this (the bank is featured as a sponsor on the zoo's combo ticket web page https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org/mainstore.asp?vid=0
I just got off the phone with the Cincinnati Zoo. While the person I spoke to said she couldn't comment, she did ask her boss about it for me, and she indicated that the partnership would be revoked.
Looks like it worked folks!
Does anyone else know if the creation museum really is having financial difficulties? I hope so.
My take on the zoo thing would be that it was quite probably a wheeze put forward by a functionary (who either did or didn't think about the implications) in some sparsely attented meeting, and slipped in "on the fly". We'll see if one of the zoos directors choses to reject it out of hand - if so, the whole thing could work to the advantage of education and reason.
AnthonyK
I have been an education volunteer at the Cincinnati Zoo since I was 15. That is 34 years. In that time I have supervised, trained and mentored other volunteers. I have even helped set up education programing. I have talked to thousands of zoo visitors. I may even be in your vacation pictures. In all that time the zoo has never taught anything over than solid evolution based science. I just heard about this joint marketing thing with AIG today, and I have sent e-mails to the head of the Zoos education department asking for an explanation.
In all fairness it wouldn't be the first time the marketing department did something without the advice or consent of the education department. They tend to operate like their own little kingdom, but this is far worse than screwing up advertising for some special event.
I am waiting to hear back from the Zoo. If they really are behind this, and it is not some third-party setting up the marketing, then I will have to resign as a zoo volunteer, and that will be like cutting out my heart.
Oops. "zoo's", sorry.
I spoke to Chad, the Director of Marketing at the Cincinatti Zoo, and he informed me that the ticket cross-promotion with the Creation Museum will be taken down from their website within 1/2 hour.
A small win, but let's cherish it!
Good news, Benjamin. And now, can we get the KY Division of Tourism to take down their logo from the Creation Museum's billboard on I-74 coming down from Indianapolis?
Contact the AZA to express your disappointment that one of their accredited zoos is shaming their entire organization:
http://www.aza.org/AboutAZA/index.html
I sent the following to the Cincinatti Zoo:
As an active earth scientist (geophysicist), I was shocked and dismayed that you have brought disrepute to
a formerly serious and important force for good science education in Ohio.
For an important science education institution like the Cincinnati Zoo to partner with an avidly anti-science, anti-intellectual,and anti-rational center of ignorance like the Creation Museum boggles the mind.
The Creation Museum is an embarrassment to the entire country, and a laughing stock of the educated, scientific, and reality based world.
This is a sad day for Ohio and especially for the Cincinnati Zoo. How can your institution ever be taken seriously again by the scientific community?
I hope and trust that the local news media will excoriate the Cincinnati Zoo for its plunge into idiocy.
Sincerely,
Actually the Creation museum supports science. They have a different view point of how things started, but they support science. Maybe you all should go to the creation musuem and get your own opinions instead of listening to the liberal medias perspective.
BTB, you're fooling yourself - or rather, allowing others to fool you - if you think anything the Creation Museum does qualifies as science.
It's not just the difference of opinion, but the lack of methodology and the heavy use of mythology.
Finally: "liberal media" = FAIL.
Hell. First they build that awful travesty of a museum a couple of miles from where I grew up, then my alma mater Northern Kentucky University (where I got my BS in biological sciences BTW) makes it on this blog in the walk of shame, and now my zoo does this. I hate feeling like I have to protest that not everyone from this area is a nutjob, but it's certainly grim for the Northern Kentucky/Great Cincinnati Area. As a member of the zoo so I will certainly be writing letters.
BTB: Science is a method. Part of that method is going from evidence to conclusions, not conclusions to evidence. There are few things out there that are less supportive of science than spending millions of dollars starting at a conclusion, and trying to fool little kids into believing that the Noahic flood is anything other than mythology.
BTB, first, define science. And I don't mean pulling a definition out of your ear; I mean looking up the definition. Then describe what the Creation Museum does. They are opposites. Science is a process - what the Creation Museum does is not a process.
I love how you rightwing whackaloons ascribe everything you don't understand or "agree with" to the liberal media - yes, I only "believe" in science because the New York Times lied to me about it. Clown.
Actually the Creation museum supports science.
If my science you mean falsified science, then okay. The few things the CM presents which are related to actual testable hypotheses (e.g., the the flud) have been disproven by science. A flat earth museum has a different view too, and one that is equally inaccurate.
I couldn't have asked for a better resolution to this. Be proud, PZ!
The ticket package is still on the web site, at least at:
https://tickets.cincinnatizoo.org/signups/affiliates.asp
It's appalling that this happened at all, but at least they've (mostly) cleaned it up, as I don't see any obvious links to it. (I found this one by googling for it)
Wake up, BTB. The Creation Museum was conceived, designed, built, and is operated by people who have to sign a statement of faith that in essence says that any evidence that contradicts the bible is to be ignored.
Does that sound like science to you?
The Creation Museum is about as anti-science as it's possble to be.
Go back to your Wholly Babble, and don't forget to say "Hi" to Wilma and Fred for us next time you see them
riding their dinosaurs around the grounds of the Creation Museum.
Actually, no! It doesn't.
Thanks for playing, though. Johnny! Tell him what he's won!
Re: Larry Fafarman
Full credit goes to him for publishing dissenting comments. See http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2008/12/sleazy-pzs-attack-on-cinci… as mentioned before.
I don't see any of his comments on this topic, or have I missed them? If he's not commented, is it because he is prevented from doing so? I would hope that this topic and indeed, this blog, would be capable of allowing a full range of ideas and opinions. Incidentally, I don't share his beliefs, and I had the dubious "honour" of being labeled a "dunghill", but at least he was decent enough to allow my comments unaltered and immediately.
I'm new to this blog, so I don't know if there is a history with him.
Craig,
If you click on the "Dungeon" link at the top of the page, you'll see that PZ banned Larry Fafarman a while back. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php
Keep in mind, Craig, that you really have to work at it to get banned here. It's not like the pro-ID blogs, such as Uncommon Descent, where dissent is actively suppressed
I wonder what would happen if people (also) sent letters to the cretinism (not-really-a-)museum complaining that by aligning themselves with an institution known for its energetic long-time support and teaching of Darwinism they are associating themselves with the nazis and the commies and teh gays and the atheists and so on, as proved in the expelled documentary.
Was BTB a Poe or a seagull?
"Creation Museum" and "Science" - did those words just tumble out of your brain randomly?
As a Poe that was lame - we've seen and fallen for much better.
As a seagull (wander over, squawk a lot, crap on things, and then fly away) that was quite average and lame.
@Lowell,
Thanks for the info. I'll read up on the Dungeon articles for some perspective. :^)
blf - If only!
BTB - No it does not. It teaches a very narrow world view that is part of a relatively modern fringe interpretation of Christianity, It is not even in line with the beliefs of the majority of Christians.
On top of that, and this is not the place to go into this, but the AIG people do not act like Christians. They used strong arm techniques more in line with drug gangs or the Mafia to get zoning and other public works back-up for the museum rammed through the local government. The museum backers think because they are working for a "higher cause" that law and common decency do not apply to them. Look around on the net, find the news stories about what went on while they were getting zoning permission to build. Find out what their neighbors, who mostly don't give a squat about the whole evolution/creation debate, think of them. The baptist church just down the road helped sponsor the demonstrations the weekend the place opened that's how much they dirtied their own nest while getting the place built.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081201/NEWS01/312010040/1055/NEWS
Zoo pulls Creation Museum promotion
I got an email back from callcenter@cincinnatizoo.org :
"Thank you for contacting the Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden. The combo package with the Creation Museum has been cancelled.
Thanks, Kathy"
HAH!
Feymaniac @ 119:
I'm also a Canadian, but I begrudge Byers his possibly one unobjectionable quality. Reading this blog always gives me moron envy of our Southern neighbours.
Byers proves we can grow a fine crop of idiot as well, unless of course he's a US ex-pat.
Given that he's probably a Harper supporter, unless he's one of the handful of complete lunatics who finds Stevie too left-wing, it helps calm my anxiety about the impending coalition headed by Iggy Thumbscrews and/or "opportunism is too a political philosophy" Rae to think that we'd be frustrating the electoral selections of Byers' ilk.
But then again, I only made the mistake of reading one of his posts once, so good luck with that petition.
""When we partner with the Reds, we don't get these kinds of emails," Yelton said. "It's pretty clear this is more of a distraction.""
Maybe because baseball teams aren't dedicated to destroying everything you work for?
I would have preferred to hear from any actual zoo people in that article rather than a clueless marketing bozo, but hey, a win is a win.
@Wendy: I just received the exact same email. BTW, I also thanked her for her time and quick response. I know we all can get a little hot under the collar and rush off to send scathing emails. I hope we all at least send a simply "Thank you" in reply if you receive an email.
My Email from Kathy:
"Thank you for contacting the Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden. The combo package with the Creation Museum has been cancelled.
Thanks, Kathy"
Being educated implies transfer of knowledge, but as is evidenced by most of the statements here, it does not impart wisdom. The Cincy Zoo is not supporting "an anti-science, anti-education con job run by ignorant creationists", but instead is approaching the science/religion controversy from a much more rational bases than those who resort to derogatory adjectives when responding to opposing views. Reactionary responses usually occur out of fear and mis-understanding. The Cincy Zoo is far ahead of most of the responders here in convincing the majority of people that empirical data always wins out over faith and religious beliefs. Respect for opposing views also wins out in changing beliefs to more reasonable and rational ones.
@Greg Lloyd: Thanks for the suggestion! I'm going to send her a thank-you email right now.
From the Cincinnati Enquirer article's forum:
"What are you evolutionists so afraid of? I don't believe your theories that are "preached" in colleges, at the zoos and many museums all over the country, but I still go to these places and listen politely. After this rediculous caving to the anti-bible zealots , I will not be visiting this zoo anymore. Why does tolerance only go one way. By what these anti-creation letters are saying, I don't see any geniuses among you. Does anyone know what behemoth means?"
+1 to this believer for the perfectly crafted typical response! Check-plus!
I know that respecting bullshit has always been the hallmark of teaching rationalism and discernment.
That's why every statement about physics must be compared with statements by alchemists and magicians.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
""When we partner with the Reds, we don't get these kinds of emails,"
Is that guy a little thick? Are the Reds anything but entertainment?
"The Cincy Zoo is far ahead of most of the responders here in convincing the majority of people that empirical data always wins out over faith and religious beliefs."
And how do they do this, exactly?
Your concern is noted. And inane.
I used polite and respectful language when I wrote my letter to the zoo. But unfortunately for you, I am not trying to convince anyone of the validity of evolution over creationism on this blog at this time. So I say once again, fuck the creationists.
Nope.
Nope.
Nah. Seen the walkthrough. It's not science.
Julia wrote "Thank Dog I live in England. We have more than our fair share of religious/anti-science loonies but something like this could never happen."
Maybe not, but we have the creationist "Noah's Arc Zoo Farm" in Bristol, which is affiliated to a UK zoo educational organisation - who have been told about it to no effect. It does a good trade in school visits too.
http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/NoahsArkZooFarm
Feynmaniac #119: As a Canadian, I'd be happy to sign your petition. But in what way do you see "...a Mountie using a Canadian flag as a cape while raping a beaver at a Tim Horton's" as damaging to Canada's image?
ummm... I'm a firm believer in evolution and do not consider myself Christian by any stretch of the term. That said, I think it's just fine that they did this. The creationists are always going on and on (and on and on) about equal time. This is equal time. They can put their (poorly designed, circular logic) charts against the zoo's scientific and intelligent (as opposed to intelligent design) data. Anyone with two neurons to rub together will be able to see the difference. And those without? Oh well. Ironically, they tend to be better candidates for the Darwin Awards.
Having sent a polit e-mail of condemnation, i have just (22.57 London time) received a return message telling me that the combo package has been cancelled....
Yippee!
Common sense 1 Creationists 0
Chris
Here's a link to the promotion retraction story...
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081201/NEWS01/312010040/1055/NEWS
Ken Ham noted our intolerance to Christianity, but failed to note the museum's intolerance to intelligence...lol
I agree with you on some points, but you're simply being a BIGOT. Trumpeting your beliefs as superior to others and decrying others as "shameful" to a country which is composed largely of deist is pathetically disgraceful.
This issue doesn't harm you one little bit. You're simply being offensive to people who don't share your beliefs - you're as bad as they are.
Dwindle @ 162:
No, it doesn't harm me. It harms the minds of children who would have visited the house of lies. Thus this issue will concern anyone who cares whether children are given a reality-based education.
Thankfully it is no longer an issue:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/12/victory_in_cincinnati.php
"Beliefs"?
On the one hand, there's science, supported by evidence.
On the other hand, there is faith without any evidence whatsoever.
If evidence-supported science is not superior to a story with no evidence whatsoever, then what is the point of doing science at all?
While religion is faith without evidence, what is shameful is not religion itself, but in asserting that this faith without evidence is supported by evidence. This is, basically, a lie. It is false testimony.
Lies are indeed shameful, and disgraceful. I understand that the bible itself orders believers not to give false testimony.
Way to go Cincinnati! Way to promote what so many believe and not worry about those who believe that the THEORY of evolution is absolute truth.
Way to keep up, Dawn!
Dwindle #162 wrote:
The Creationist Museum is not wrong because it is religious. It is wrong because it is wrong. It's making false scientific claims about the age of the earth, the origin of species, and other matters in which it is indeed possible to be clearly, demonstrably, and not-just-a-matter-of-opinion wrong.
Most religious people have learned to not have God say anything or do anything or mean anything which can be wrong. They do this by being vague, and making God vague. It's wise strategy.
The Creationist Museum does not gain any scientific credibility by linking to legitimate educational organizations. Instead, it gains the appearance of legitimacy, without having done any of the real work that comes with science. That's deceptive. And that is shameful -- even by their own standards.
You really must get over the idea that it's somehow arrogant, bigoted, or unfair to criticize other people. If nothing else, it would save you cognitive dissonance from coming over onto this blog and chewing us out. I don't have a problem with your doing this. And don't have a problem with disagreeing with you when you do.
So according to the link regarding the retraction (#161), Ham and the zoo had been brewing it up for months. Something rotten somewhere. Do I smell dinosaur shit?
As a member of the Cincinnati Zoo, I would like to thank everyone on this ROUND planet that came to our rescue with your letters and emails. I have enjoyed reading all of them.
But being a local resident who lives just a few minutes from that "museum", I am worried that the struggle for truth is not be over. I wonder why exactly the zoo pulled the offer. Was it because they really understand that the zoo should be about protecting endangered species and not promoting the endangerment of knowledge? Or was it only because they didn't want to deal with the "controversy"?
I mean, how was this allowed to happen in the first place? Some staff members had to come up with this idea and approve of this partnership. Those people have no business being anywhere near that "leading" science education intuition.
I am obviously not the type who favors witch hunts, but I'm afraid the Cincinnati zoo needs to do more than just review its promotional policies. They need to review the people that represent them and make sure they truly understand the difference between science and fiction. Otherwise, something like this will happen again.
Maybe the Cinci Zoo got bored with the diversity of actual animals to be found, and titillated by the prospect of vegetarian Tyrannosaurus rex et al. (Wouldn't that be a prize? LOL!)
This does raise an interesting question for me. If I had an opportunity to visit the Creation Museum without too much trouble, would I take it? Let's assume further that the admission were free, so I wouldn't have the onus of supporting the fakery. I think I'd probably still decide against it.
Dave, Yes, I too have pondered visiting the museum - just to know exactly what was being said there. But I could not allow myself to give them the $21.95 (plus $7.00 for the planetarium) to further their cause.
Congratulations on getting the Cincinnati Zoo to cancel their cross-marketing promotion.
Imagine the harm that would have resulted to the scientific community had the promotion not been cancelled? Can anyone picture what type of societal disruptions would occur if creationism were to be allowed into the marketplace of ideas? Thank goodness that scientifically enlightened individuals felt the need to rise up and quench this opposing ideology.
Your efforts should definitely be commended. I shudder at the thought of an impressionable youth being exposed to one day at the museum. That one day might be enough reverse 180 days of evolutionary biology indoctrination that the youth would receive from their public education.
Hank the orotund.
You're welcome, Hank.
"Can anyone picture what type of societal disruptions would occur if creationism were to be allowed into the marketplace of ideas?"
Creationism has failed innumerable times in the marketplace of ideas, and its proponents basically just beg for government bailouts now.
moron Hank,
Read my post #80. If creationism weren't "allowed" in the USA, why do 48% of religious Americans believe in it ?
Gee, I wonder what this figure would be like if it were "allowed".
Try to make utterances that aren't so damn stupid next time.
Saw this on the link to the Cincinnati.com website:
[quote]No package deals had been sold, so no refunds will be necessary.[/quote]
LOL.
is Aardvarcheology outsidee you guys' jurisdiction or something? There is a serious idiot prowling around there! Oh well, none of my business, i suppose.
A JADIWOTI is always in our juridiction !
It worked, they pulled the program but I wonder why or who did this in the first place. Having known the zoo director for a long time I am amazed this could happen. However, even if he didn't know of the program he should have kept a closer eye on his organization. A sad episode for such a great zoo.
I contacted the zoo and the paper to tell them how great this is. A victory for the crazy, self-loathing uneducated bible thumping nut-cases! I have another great promotion - instead of a Halloween party with kids and animals, let's invite the God hates Fags group in for a gay-bashing Halloween hoe-down where they can shoot the animals who display homosexuality!!
The Zoo has scuttled its plans to partner with the Creation Museum. I sent them a thank you letter for coming to their senses.
http://ncseweb.org/news/2008/12/creation-museum-rebuffed-by-cincinnati-…
Its really interesting to see that people can call themselves writers when they can not open their minds to different idea's. Creationism is an idea of how things started, since there is no real proof as to how the world came about(Lets face it we were not here when it happened);
This is no different that not believing in the same God or other being above. People need to take a step back and see that just because something is taught to be true, it may not be. I am disgraced at the level of stupidity in most of these comments, as well as the article.
As a side note, Its kinda hard to believe that we just happened out of time to be so complex, and yet over time we are gaining new illnesses. We are basically going down hill not getting better as the theory of the big bang would say. Survival of the fittest?? maybe for animals, but not for us.
No - only your own.
You weren't present at your parents' births, either, yet you presumably accept that they happened.
Science can study the evidence that exists now, and offer testable theories that explain what happened in the past that would result in what we see now.
Creationism makes stupid stuff up.
Quite right. Creationism is nothing but stupid lies.
That's pretty stupid, too, on multiple levels, and reveals a pathetic level of scientific ignorance. This is what comes of listening to Creationists: you ignore science, and repeat stupidity.
Tiffany, let me put this bluntly: You're an idiot. At least, that's the most charitable interpretation. In order to say what you just said, you have to be either incapable of understanding reality, willfully ignorant, or lying thorugh your teeth.
Tiffany the idiot @ #182:
Ah, the "were you there" idiocy. Since no one now alive was there at the signing of the US Constitution, then surely you agree that the claim that the founding document of our nation was written by reptiloid aliens from the planet Omicron Persei Seven and delivered by the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as valid as the official version backed up by every historical source in existence. Are you really that stupid?
I'm sure if your house was robbed, and you didn't see who did it, but all your stuff was found in your neighbor's house, and his fingerprints were all over your walls, his hairs shed all over your floor, and a signed confession was found in your house written in his own blood you would decline to prosecute as there is no possible way to determine who did it without seeing the crime in progress. Actually, you probably really ARE this stupid.
There is such a thing as "evidence". I know, the concept is difficult for creationists to understand. But when something happens, there are effects on objects in the real world. These traces can be observed and examined. When a house burns down, and there's a trail of drops of gasoline to a nearby house, and a leaky gas can in that yard, and the owner of that house smells of smoke, there's a good chance you've found your arsonist. When a lot of skeletons and busted broken weapons are found in an area, chances are good there was some sort of battle there. But I'm sure you'll deny the very possiblity of knowing anything about anything without being there. If you don't, your entire argument is exposed as a lie.
There are mountains of evidence to support the Theory of Evolution. This evidence is publicly accessible, but you have clearly not made any attempt to look at it. You don't even understand what evolution IS, nor do you have any interest in learning, yet you somehow feel qualified to dismiss it. You are ignorant, and proud of your ignorance. This is not merely stupid, it is dishonest. By pretending the evidence doesn't exist, you are lying both to others and to yourself.
There is not the slightest speck of evidence to support creationist delusions. Even the creationists have given up looking (though they occasionally try to fabricate something). Creationists are reduced to repeating fallacious and outright fraudulent arguments against evolution, arguments that were in many cases shown to be false before either of us was even BORN. Creationism has no scientific legitimacy whatsoever. It is the worship of delusion and falsehood, the desperate clinging to discredited garbage, hiding from the facts like a vampire from sunlight.
I am open to any idea that is supported by facts. Creationists have utterly failed to provide a single fact. Instead they repeat obvious falsehoods and seek to brainwash other people's children at other people's expense. If creationists had anything worthwhile to contribute, they would have done it by now. They haven't. It has become painfully obvious that your ilk have nothing to offer but endless lies.
If you disagree with my characterization of you as a liar and a fool, you're free to provide some evidence in support of your claims. Go ahead. The whole world is waiting. Been waiting for thousands of years. And in all that time, not once has any creationist ever had a speck of evidence.
Good God! I arrived at this blog post from Fark and I've gotta say, congrats Mr. Myers. Your blog has the most closed minded, spiteful, self-righteous, arrogant, bullying readers of any I've seen in a long time. Bravo - keep up the hate fest. Why encourage meaningful and thoughtful dialog and debate? It's too hard anyway.
You called?
Yes, that describes Me, God, quite accurately.
Well, you are certainly doing your part.
Which explains why you haven't bothered even trying. It's all just too hard...
Why are these statements so often made by people who know essentially nothing about ideas like evolution, to those of us who know both sides very well?
Mote, beam, be concerned about the judgment you believe will occur, Tif.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Jeff @ #186:
Thank you for such a spot-on accurate description of yourself and your fellow trolls.
I have to say the respondents on this article are some of the most self-righteous close-minded intolerant bags of hot air I've ever had the misfortune of reading. Just from reading the comments I can tell that most of you are so scared of the possibility of there being a God that might hold you accountable for the things that you do, that you'll browbeat and insult those that hold to a higher power than Man. For me and mine, next time I hit the Creation Museum I'll spend an extra day in Cincinnati and hit the Zoo too. It sounds like they're at least tolerant of people with different beliefs.
Freedom, I'll believe in god as soon as you show me some convincing physical evidence for it that can pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers. Until then, god a myth, and all morals are defined by men, as they have always been.
By the way, how often do you open your mind to the non-existence of god? If you don't, quit complaining about the closed minds of others as it is hypocritical.
Freedom @190,
Wipe the spittle off your monitor. It's bad for the antireflective coating.
Yes, I am. And so are you.
Son, I know that I exist. And I know that I am accountable to no one. I am a higher power than man.
Who the hell are you?
Goody for you.
Yeah, right. Try to sacrifice a goat from the petting zoo to Me, and see what happens.
You know, if you wanted to at least look like you're not a hypocritical dumbshit, you'd state how you're going to read Blind Watchmaker and try make it to the evolution exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History in NYC. Not that we'd believe you, since we have almost never met an open-minded creationist, but at least we'd have to respond more cautiously after such claims.
As it is, what a moron, you're off to hear lies at the close-minded bigot museum, and going to see the zoo. The latter's all well and good, of course, but it certainly requires no thinking, even if it gives opportunity to those of us who are practiced in it.
You don't even know how to pretend to be open-minded, all you can do is project your lack of it onto others.
And of course, the odds that you're one of the rude dolts consigned to the dungeon are high (likely you're "Tiffany" at the least). Which is why I shouldn't feed the troll. I felt like commenting, though, so I wasted some time with your benighted and blinkered pig-ignorance.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Absolutely not: the fire for burnt offerings constitutes a public safety hazard.
For me and mine, next time I hit the Creation Museum I'll spend an extra day in Cincinnati and hit the Zoo too.
That'll show 'em!
Exactly the sort of excuses I would expect! America is a bureaucracy, not a theocracy.
But really, how hard is it to use a grill?
We wouldn't need a grill if you just accepted a pile of foreskins or the slaughter of a few dozen children like you used to.
Fickle bloody deities can't be relied on to keep the simplest thing consistent from millennium to millennium.
Freedom #190 wrote:
And I have to say that people with weak arguments are very quick to resort to focusing on superficial matters like tone and style, so that they can avoid dealing with content. Issues like integrity, truth, and honesty in science are swept aside so that we can all concentrate instead on who has been nicest, and the most polite.
On our side we have over 100 years of solid research and evidence converging firmly onto one conclusion: evolution happened. On their side they have other people being mean to them by saying mean words and not agreeing that everyone has the right to be right. Though I seldom use invective myself, I know which side I'd rather be on.
What's up with the trolls lately? Has PZ been getting them at some second rate yard sale?
Damn, has another short bus broken down near an internet café? That's the best explanation for the sudden appearance of slack-jawed lackwits on this blog.
I think Dawkins put it best; I can't remember exactly how he phrased it, but it's something to the tune of 'when there are two differing viewpoints, it isn't always the case that the correct answer is halfway in between - it's possible that one of the viewpoints is completely wrong'.
Creationism is wrong. Flat-out wrong. It's not up for debate. It's not up for discussion. It's a lie, told by liars, and only believed by the stupid, the credulous, the intellectually dishonest and the willfully ignorant.
Why shouldn't we be intolerant of liars and the lies they tell? Just because they're Liars for Jesus™?
What on My green Earth makes you think that I wouldn't? Have you seen any Amalekites or Canaanites around?
Think about it.
God @202,
Well, you definitely need to send your representatives back to school. They don't agree on much, but they're more-or-less unanimous on the whole sacrificing children thing being pretty much out of favour with you ever since your son got himself nailed to a tree by a bunch of your chosen people.
Yeah. Scared. Sure. Been a Christian, thought like a Christian, could recite more scripture than you're capable of reading. Not one anymore. If you think that means I'm scared, well, creationists aren't exactly known for their mental prowess or interest in understanding others.
Believe what you want about the existence of God, my morality, or the colour of my ginch for all I care. But you've had 3000+ years to produce evidence for your God (or evidence against the others). There are more transitional fossils than miracles, and that's even including the miracles 'substantiated' by no more than a cowherd and his dog. Like any other poor student who refuses to learn you've lost, failed the exam, been held back, and now, like the failed held-back kid that continues to huff glue and offer the other kids smokes, you've been expelled. So sorry, but there's no conspiracy against you: you're just dumb. Indisputably dumb, and with a bad attitude to boot. Really: how long did you expect we'd let you glide along and cheat off the kids who work hard to learn? School's not for you, and neither is understanding the universe--despite hundreds of chances, you've proven yourselves to be incapable, and we can't carry your dead weight any longer.
So go get jobs flipping burgers at Dairy Queen, retailing angel statuettes at Christmas, or fleecing your fellow Creationists, whatever, none of us here cares.
But by all means, go. The rest of us have work to do.
Probably on its way back to the residential care unit from the Creation Museum.
I'd love to see a Creationist/ID team entered in the Olympics.
You'd have the slow athletes demanding the champion sprinters stop and let them pass; the weaklings complaining that the heavy lifters are 'being mean' by winning the gold; the lazy athletes asking to drive a hovercraft in the triathalon and having 'the judges decide for themselves' who wins the race; and no longer would figure skaters complain about East German judges--every non-perfect score would be blamed on Hitler.
They have seemed a bit repetitive today. Might be a class project for IgnoranceRUsTM Xian school.
I wonder if Creation Museum supporters are angry with their management for partnering with the devil, the evolution-believing Cincy Zoo?
@Freedom
If the zoo was allied with a holocaust denial museum, would you call those who are outraged closed-minded?
Well, it's just a temporary deal, at least until Ham can start his own zoo, complete with a crocoduck.
"Just from reading the comments I can tell that most of you are so scared of the possibility of there being a God that might hold you accountable for the things that you do"
What are these things that we've supposedly done that we don't want to be accountable for? What are you accusing us of? Come on, I want to know. And is it worse that we supposedly fear somebody punishing us, or that you seem to need the threat of punishment in order to be a good person?
You call yourself Freedom, you don't know the meaning of the word.
I took my students to the Cincinnati Zoo in October to see their CREW program. It's a really nice program. Too bad I will not be sponsoring another such trip.
Thought you'd all like to know that I'm taking the advice of another poster, and writing an article on this very subject for my blog! Like you, I find this matter horrifying!
I'll even quote a few of you intolerant, God-hating so-called "liberals", to be sure my readers understand just what sort of mean, rude, and nasty people you atheists really are.
Congratulations on your success in expelling Christians from the Cincinnati Zoo. I hope you're proud of yourselves.
poe
Why?
I feel as much pride as I would rallying against an organisation that supported holocaust deniers. By the way Christian != creationist. Hell, creationists doesn't even imply Christian. All those Muslim, Hindu and Sikh creationists would be offended at your comments, just as all Christians who support the theory of evolution would be.
Man... That's a pretty damn good Poe.
Fuck, that is such a great poe. So good I fell for it!
Why would anyone spend so much time on a fake website like that,is what I wonder........
@Paliban Mom
There are plenty of Christians who believe that the theory of evolution and a belief in God can coexist. Those Christians are appalled that the Cincinnati Zoo is associated in any way with the Creation Museum. Not all of the previous posters are "God-hating, liberal atheists". I'll wager that the majority of them are Christians.
No one is "expelling Christians from the Cincinnati Zoo". Please make sure that your blog conveys these facts.
Must be to drive traffic to (his? her?) Skreened store and Cafepress store.
Gotta love the eSodomy t-shirts . . .
Oops, that was @ clinteas.
These new Poe's Law enthusiasts should really work on their delivery - posts have to have far more spelling mistakes, grammatical errors and numerous all-cap words.
To earthychic, who wrote "There are plenty of Christians who believe that the theory of evolution and a belief in God can coexist."
Yes, there are also plenty of so-called Christians who believe that nobody goes to Hell, and that murdering babies in the womb is a neato-keen idea, and that God loves everybody, even those who hate Him. The Bible tells us the opposite of all of these.
The Bible is God's Word, and it is the foundation of Christianity. It is perfect and infallible. If it is wrong in one point, that would mean it is not perfect and infallible, and therefore all of it would be brought into question. (I'm guessing you're probably not a fan of actually READING the Bible, just talking about what it would say, if only God said what YOU wish God had said.)
Real Christians believe the entire Bible, not just the bits and pieces they find convenient or pleasant.
Aye, and if ye dinnae eat haggis ye are nae real Scotsman, either!
So real Christians believe that bats are birds? ;)
Love your site btw, gave me some great lulz
Exactly!!!
When I say "anything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is unclean", I mean it! No lobster, crabs, shrimp, octopus, squid, turtles, sharks, whales, seals, starfish, jellyfish, and so on and so forth. No exceptions. I don't care if you think they're yummy, I say NO!
And people don't listen, and they eat whatever they pull out of the sea, and ... well...
Ugh!
If this is has been reported already somewhere lost in the screed, I apologize. But our local news last night reported the Zoo had ended their arrangement with Teh Stupid Museum because of all the irate emails and calls. I am reason, hear me roar, and whatnot.
The Cincinnati museum has WITHDRAWN this offer after receiving many protests. Thank heavens. I think the Creation museum pollutes young minds. I also am very much against having to go into a church to cast my votes in pol;itical races- whatever happened to separation of church and state???
Hey, Paliban Mom, you think the Bible is completely infallible? Have fun with these passages!
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
But really, this is just disgusting. If they are getting any funding from the state, it needs to be cut NOW. The US is just inching it's way closer and closer to a theocracy, and it scares me silly.
How was the Cincinnati Zoo going to market this? What if they were going to send fliers out to churches and through home school networks with information on how to purchase the tickets through the website?
I think this could have been a good opportunity to promote science education to a group of people who haven't had much exposure to it.
Get a grip. If you don't like what's happening, stop frequenting the zoo.
There is no Constitutional separation of church and state: the Constitution prevents the government itself from establishing a religion or operating its court, legislative and/or executive branches in the name of a particular doctrine or denomination. The zoo can do what it wants, and will be held accountable for its standards or lack thereof.
Otherwise, it seems most of you posters are a bunch of bigots screaming "Bigots!"
Speaking of getting a grip. You should try it. While your at it maybe bone up on the reading comprehension skills.
The point is that the Zoo is being held to the standard that it is promoting... namely good science. The creation museum is the direct opposite of that standard. It is not only poor science but its goal is destroying, distorting and denying good science. Holding the zoo accountable for its standards is exactly what was done here.
Are you confused?
Calling the Zoo on that has nothing to do with bigotry. It has to do with asking an institution to stay on track with its standards.
Thank God they pulled the plug on that promo. I'd hate to think the TOLERANCE that we've been preaching would actually be practiced. Listen up kiddies... "Accept everyone's beliefs and viewpoints...unless you disagree with them."
Being tolerant of someone's view point is a completely different kettle of fish than helping to promote someone's beliefs that run in direct opposition to your own.
Jebus, the concern trolls like Jole are out in force today.
Posted by: Jole | December 3, 2008
Thank God they pulled the plug on that promo. I'd hate to think the TOLERANCE that we've been preaching would actually be practiced. Listen up kiddies... "Accept everyone's beliefs and viewpoints...unless you disagree with them."
Why, yes, we should TOLERATE those who gets the facts wrong. We should encourage those who are wrong to teach us there mistakes.
Jole, would you be happy with a science teacher who taught that the theory of gravitation got it all wrong. It is not the bodies of mass pulling on each other, it is something PUSHING us down to the ground. Would you have TOLERANCE for that.
Your concern is noted and given the consideration it deserves.
Calling the Zoo on that has nothing to do with bigotry. It has to do with asking an institution to stay on track with its standards.
-- Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | December 3, 2008 10:57 AM
Yes it does have much to do with bigotry.
Can you tell us how the zoo planned on marketing these tickets? To whom were they going to be marketed?
I believe you and many other posters have jumped to a largely uninformed, knee jerk conclusion.
If they were going to market these tickets on TV then I might be in agreement with you. But what if they were only going to be marketed to largely creationist groups?
If so then all you have done is destroy an opportunity to PROMOTE SCIENCE EDUCATION to a group of people who so desperately need it.
you all talk about tolerance but you are intolerant of christian. i hope that you find God before you die so that you will not face eternity of torment. i feel sorry for you P Z Myers, that you have nothing better to do than to blog about the Cincinnati Zoo and the Creation Museum. I am a member of both. Are you? doubt it? you hide at a university because you can't make it in the real world. you disgust me. i will pray for you, because Jesus said to pray for our enemies.
GM, thank you for your concern. Your imaginary god doesn't exist, so PZ has no worry of eternal torment. The zoo should have nothing to do with the museum of religious beginings. We live in the real world. We don't need imaginary beings to live well.
"you all talk about tolerance but you are intolerant of christian"
-- Posted by: Greg Maurer | December 3, 2008 12:45 PM
Christianity and its God are larger than creationism so please, get over your persecution complex.
It adds nothing to the discussion.
And again, that's bigotry how?
We aren't asking that creationists can't go to the Zoo we are asking that the zoo retains some professional integrity by not helping to promote the Creation museum. A museum who's goal it is to destroy much of the very science that the Zoo promotes.
Nothing bigoted about it.
If the Zoo wants to help promote good science they do not need to piggy back on the prospect of giving the Creation Museum any credence to do so.
"If the Zoo wants to help promote good science they do not need to piggy back on the prospect of giving the Creation Museum any credence to do so."
If they want to reach out to these people, yes they do.
You seem to be missing that such a mutual agreement benefits the zoo too by opening doors which may not otherwise be open and promoting science to groups of people who might not otherwise have much exposure to it.
Again, it depends on how the tickets were going to be marketed and we do not know the answer to that question. Without that answer it is inescapable that the reaction on this board is without merit.
Greg Maurer, why does your "I will pray for you" sound like a "fuck you".
And somehow I doubt you have the intelligence to make it in an academic institution.
...you have nothing better to do than to blog about the Cincinnati Zoo and the Creation Museum.
Please check this out, this blog was around long before this little kerfuffle. Hell, this blog was around before your laughable Creation Museum. And this blog will be around when most of us are saying; "Remember this silly little story in Cincinnati?"
I am a member of both. Are you? doubt it?
Are you a member of the Shedd Aquarium, the Field Museum of Natural History and the Max Adler Planetarium in Chicago, Illinois. I doubt it. Please do not ask foolish questions.
Greg Maurer, I am so sorry that reality and the truth is so much larger then your meager imagination.
Greg being that you are a member of both, how do you reconcile the opposing messages being taught by the two institutions
Wait Universities aren't the real world? Did you not attend one so that makes them not count? Or do you think that they are imaginary?
How very Christian of you.
And I will do nothing for you. So we'll be accomplishing the exact same thing.
Marcus, I find it hard to believe that someone would not go to the zoo unless they also went to the museum of religious beginnings. Most kids would want to go to the zoo and forget the museum.
By pairing up with an institution who's very stated goal is to promote ideas that seek to destroy good empirical science?
No I think there are better ways to reach people than by buddying up with a group bent on destroying much of what you are seeking to promote.
I don't expect Holocaust deniers and the US Holocaust Museum to pair up either. If they did I'd be critical as well.
And again, please explain why it's bigotry.
No.
Would an air and space museum be helping its public image if it cooperated with a group that insisted that Roswell was a real alien crash landing and the alien dissection aired on FOX was real?
It's all very well to speak of "promoting science to groups of people who might not otherwise have much exposure to it", but the simple fact is that the creation museum promotes anti-science, and the zoo is reinforcing the idea that that anti-science is true by co-operating with the creation museum in any way.
"Marcus, I find it hard to believe that someone would not go to the zoo unless they also went to the museum of religious beginnings. Most kids would want to go to the zoo and forget the museum."
-- Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | December 3, 2008 1:09 PM
That's not what is at issue here. The issue is, what is being promoted?
I'm arguing that if marketed properly, it is the zoo which is being promoted to creationists.
But we don't actually know HOW the tickets were going to be promoted so we can not come to any sort of informed conclusions.
Regardless, the tickets have been pulled, any educational opportunities have been lost with them.
I have a yearly membership to the Detroit Zoo and the last time that I was there I saw 2 upright "humans" in the gorilla enclosure. One had a cell phone and the other a clipboard. The process took less time than I was taught.
Ok, and pardon me if I'm wrong, but you may be late to the issue here.
The Zoo had the Creation museum promoted on its website.
Directly on there promoting it as a two-for-one type deael.
That is how the zoo was marketing it.
The Creation Museum had the Zoo on their website doing the same thing.
That is unacceptable to me. That gives the appearance of the Zoo on at least two sites being ok with their name being used in conjunction with the Creation Museum.
When called on it they agreed and took down the promotion.
The problem is that the zoo in and of itself does not have a genuine program to refute the lies and nonsense of the creation museum. Creationists can go and look at the animals and nod to each other and say "See, God made all of these animals 6000 years ago for our enjoyment", and there's nothing in the zoo that explains what is wrong with that statement and why.
"Ok, and pardon me if I'm wrong, but you may be late to the issue here. The Zoo had the Creation museum promoted on its website. Directly on there promoting it as a two-for-one type deael. That is how the zoo was marketing it."
-- Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | December 3, 2008 1:21 PM
That wasn't marketing, that was simply the web-store where the tickets could be purchased. At least, such is my understanding.
"The Creation Museum had the Zoo on their website doing the same thing."
Exactly, it was the zoo which was being marketed to creationists.
Marcus #238 wrote:
In addition to people from the Creation Museum getting a discount for the Cincinnati Zoo, people who went to the Cincinnati Zoo were being offered a discount for the Creation Museum. The Cincinnati Zoo is a science-based educational organization, and it was essentially putting out ads for a group which seeks to undermine the very theory in science which allows genuine understanding of biology.
This isn't about separation of church and state. Not this time. This is about maintaining integrity. Evolution and the age of the earth are not "open questions" in science. It is not "possible" that humans and dinosaurs once lived together. People are of course free to go to both exhibits. But the Cincinnati Zoo cannot appear to endorse pseudoscience.
On another thread, I made a comparison which Creationists might more readily understand. Imagine if some marketing guy at the Creationist Museum decided to get on some promotional bandwagon at the State Tourism bureau, and The Answers in Genesis' Creation Museum started to proudly promote a 2-for-1 deal with a local casino. Gambling, drinking, nude strip shows -- the works. Families who went to buy tickets for the Museum would find out -- from the museum itself -- that they could get a discount if they took themselves to the casino later on.
It would not surprise any of us if the folks who enjoy the Creation Museum would object, and strongly. Taking the family to see the strippers at the casino is NOT something that the Creation Museum would want to promote. It's against the very thing the museum stands for: Christian family values. The Creation Museum would be promptly urged by its patrons and supporters to nix that little tourism deal, stat.
That's would not be bigotry. That wouldn't be censorship. Nobody is being prevented or forbidden to go to the casino. The fact that people who were at the casino might decide to take advantage of the discount and also go to the Creation Museum (and hopefully change their mind about ever going back to the casino) isn't going to balance out the taint AIG would get, from associating with a casino on the one hand, advertising it -- and then having exhibits which claimed that the morality behind casinos were wrong on the other.
Understand. Creationism is not just factually wrong. From the standpoint of science and the scientific mindset, creationism is intellectual and educational debauchery.
"The problem is that the zoo in and of itself does not have a genuine program to refute the lies and nonsense of the creation museum. Creationists can go and look at the animals and nod to each other and say "See, God made all of these animals 6000 years ago for our enjoyment", and there's nothing in the zoo that explains what is wrong with that statement and why."
-- Posted by: Owlmirror | December 3, 2008 1:25 PM
This is a good argument. I'll have to think on that. Thanks.
Greg Maurer @ 239 - Fuck you. Go pray for yourself. You want some intolerance for the idiot christians? Glad to meet you. I am the Banshee of christian intolerance. You can take all your gawd damned prayers and go saddle up Bill Donahue for jezus.
Want more? I'm here till Saturday.
Marcus, my point was that the zoo did not need to be marketed to those who want to see the museum of religious beginnings. It can market itself well enough on its own. If it wants to partner with somebody, it should pick a group that is not at odds with its philosophy, like an aquarium or honest museum of of natural history, or even one of the sports teams. That way, there is no conflict of interest.
I'm either not making my point or you are ignoring it.
Having the Zoo's name used in conjunction with the Creation Museum is a big part of the problem. It gives legitimacy to the Creation Museum where it is not deserved.
"If it wants to partner with somebody, it should pick a group that is not at odds with its philosophy, like an aquarium or honest museum of of natural history, or even one of the sports teams. That way, there is no conflict of interest."
-- Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | December 3, 2008 1:29 PM
That's just preaching to the choir. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't reach out to creationists.
But Rev., you'll be accomplishing the exact same thing while expending fewer calories if the Liar For Jesus(tm) isn't actually lying (anyone want to take bets?).
Efficiency to Rev. Big Dumb Chimp, for the win.
In other news, the GM museum in Detroit is adding a new wing to display Datsuns from the past and future. An upcoming model of the 2012 Nissan Corvette will be on display. GM stockholders and UAW members are pleased and didn't complain at all before taking vacations to attend the Cincinnati Zoo and The Cretins Museum.
Marcus, what part of conflict of interest are you having trouble with? Nobody here is agreeing with you. We all see this as a conflict of interest. Like a judge recusing themselves when a case involving an enemy of their family is assigned to them.
Sooooo Chimpy, you're running a prayerless ministry? How's the pay scale on that? My career in witchcraft, slutty remarks and christian cursing isn't making me a dime.
It doesn't pay shit but I get to dispense plenty of snark.
However I was just informed I'm getting a solo Photography show here in town. So there's that. Hopefully I'll sell some prints.
I doubt there will be much snark dispensed at the gallery, so I have to fill in the snark quotient somewhere.
I happened to come across this site just awhile ago and spent some time reading the blog and comments. At first, I was under the impression that this was an educational/intellectual site. However, I was surprised at the intolerance found in almost every comment posted. In America, people are free to be creationists. In America, people are free to build a creation museum. In America, people are free to visit (or not), as well.
Some of you may not realize that the scientists that helped put this museum together are published PH D's that have worked in their fields for a number of years. There are far more than a few "creationist scientists" around; though it is not a popular topic for science journals to report.
I challenge you to visit this museum--with an open mind. You may or may not like it, but at least you will have a firsthand experience, rather than going by hearsay. That in itself is a bit scientific!
Colleen, we have open minds, but we also have BS meters. And the museum of religious beginnings sets off our BS meters. We keep asking the creationists for their evidence, but somehow it never is published in the scientific literature. Until they do so, they have no evidence. The museum is not evidence.
Individual scientists may believe in creationism. Science doesn't care. There is no scientific evidence for any other theory for biology than evolution. If there is, please cite the scientific literature so we can find it.
Please point me to where you see we've said differently.
Yes people with PhDs that are wrong and the vast vast vast majority of the available empirical evidence shows them to be so. Science Journals don't report it because creationism is not science. It is the process of denying and distorting science to fit into a predetermined conclusion. It is theology not science.
The museum has been detailed quite extensively on the web.
No thanks, its the same lies, distortions and denial of every other creationist project.
Congrats on the solo show!
Nope, you don't dare dispense much snark at such an event. This weekend is my last Market of 2008, I have to bite my tongue every time a fundie blesses me & buys a dozen eggs.
Colleen, you must be new here so let me start you off:
Fuck you, fuck your concern, and kindly fuck your imaginary gods.
Colleen, I would like to apologize for my previous comment. Let me take this moment to correct myself:
I'll pray for you, pray for your concern, and pray for your gods.
There, that's better and hopefully in a 'language' you can understand.
All absolutely true.
People are free to tell lies, too, and to believe lies.
But people who care about the truth; who have standards about the truth, are free to point out that lies are indeed lies.
That's because "creationist scientists" are all either liars or crazy people.
No. I've seen the walkthrough.
@Colleen (264) -
I, too, was shocked by the hatred, intolerance, and vulgarity displayed by the God-mocking "scientific elite". I even quoted a few of them in my own blog, to demonstrate the "tolerance" exhibited by "diversity-preaching liberals".
Do bear in mind, Colleen, that they do not have the love of Jesus in their hearts. Unlike Christians, they are out of alignment with God's unconditional Love, and are thus unable to demonstrate such Love. They prefer to refuse His generous offer of Salvation, and spend eternity being punished in Hell for failure to follow His Law. Therefore, all they can do is mock and insult us, demonstrating their hate-filled and sinful natures through vulgarity and attacks.
They even accused me of being a joke, simply because I can write coherent sentences. I'm sure they'll suggest the same of you.
Don't be offended; they persecute us because they are jealous of our relationship with God. And remember, a human without God is just a vile, worthless beast. His only value in God's eyes is as fuel for the eternal fires of Hell.
Colleen @264,
*sigh*
I'm sure you're just another drive-by retard, but your diatribe of weapons-grade stupidity cannot go unanswered.
Clearly, you didn't read "almost every" comment, since several of them address and refute earlier groundless accusations of intolerance and bigotry made by imbeciles like yourself.
A number of idiots manage to get PhDs every year in a wide range of disciplines. That a tiny number of them are deluded cretins is not at all surprising. That a tiny number of those, in turn, might collaborate to produce a Temple of Ignorance is not surprising either.
"creationist scientist" is an oxymoron. Creationism and science are the antithesis of each other. Anyone who espouses anything as knuckle-headed, baseless, and unscientific as creationism automatically and voluntarily relinquishes any claim to be a scientist.
Science journals do not "report" like some kind of high-school magazine. They coordinate peer-review of submissions from authors and subsequently publish those submissions that meet the required standard of scientific rigour, which varies from journal to journal. In principle, those journals maintaining a consistently high standard become prestigious, and a hierarchy of standing emerges. No journal of standing above The Beano has ever published anything remotely supporting ID/creationism because it is not science.
I challenge you to roll around in a vat of pig fæces. You may or may not like it, but at least you will have a firsthand experience, rather than going by hearsay.Some things are better imagined than experienced.
Thus spake Paliban Mom:
I wonder why?You had me going for a minute, but a quick look at your website was quite enough to convince me that Poe's Law is not unconditionally true.
Or, as used elsewhere as a metaphor for the creation museum, a mound of horseshit.
WRMartin, Nice start up in #268. I glow with admiration.
Colleen and Paliban Mom, fuck you. I have a special relationship with gawd too. Fuck gawd. I can puke up more christianity in 30 seconds than you two titless wonders can work up to in six days.
*about to be swatted by SC*
Thanks for implicitly noting that creationist journals are not science journals, for clearly creationism is a popular topic in the former.
Considering that you are thus self-refuting, your accusations of intolerance are not only groundless, they evidently come from one who can't even maintain a logical stance within your own cemetary of unsound assumptions.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
So now that they pulled the plug on this promotion will more non-believers go to the zoo and buy tickets with their "In God We Trust" money? The basis of our nation was the freedom to practice Christianity. If there is no God, why do you exisist? To go to work, make as much money (with God's name on it) and then pass it on to you kids when you die and rot in the ground? What a good reason to live.
We still giving Mollies?
Emmet for Molly.
D, right on cue. We must be getting tag teamed by IgnoranceRUsTM religous school.
Your god doesn't exist. Evolution works without the need for imagainary beings. Deal with it.
The money is a red herring. A meaningless argument. If your god exists, please show some physical proof that can be examined by scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers and shown to be of divine will. Until then, keep your delusions to yourself.
Probably debit and credit cards.
In God We Trust
I think you need to revisit your history books.
No Christianity was being practiced just fine in merry old england. The right not not be forced to practice in one particular way or at all was a part of why this country was founded.
Because my parents had sexual relations 37 some years ago.
That quite a shallow view on life you have there.
Paliban Mom, I have a simple question. How is the Cincinatti Zoo banning christians? Are they checking papers? Do they have a sign that states "No Christians And No Dogs Allowed"? All that happened is that an ill considered marketing plan was ended.
And please try to understand this, I am in no way jealous of your relationship with big sky daddy. If this was the truth, it would seem to be a lot easier for me to have my own relationship with the big sky daddy. But I do not think that there is a deity you call "God". So how can I be jealous of something that I do not think is real. What you have to say does not even begin to make sense.
What a bunch of intolerance above. Apparently many people are responding by name calling, profanity, etc. because they have nothing to say. People who respond like this are upset because their world view doesn't add up and they feel if they can put down the opposition by being nasty, they win. But they only show their ignorance & fear.
I will quickly note a few facts:
There is lots of good science in Creation; lots of bad theology in evolution. The flood of Noah makes good sense of most of the scientific data, including marine fossils world wide at every level. Also the eruption of Mt. St. Helens shows how quickly many processes happen, not millions or billions of years as claimed.
The missing links are still missing.
The evolutionary data has totally fallen apart now that we know about the "machines" that make up our cells, which are irreducibly complex, making evolution impossible.
Everything decays, not improves.
This just scratches the scientific surface.
If that were so, our largely deist founders almost certainly would not have prohibited any religious test for holding office.
You're ignorant in science, of course, but why is it that you're also ignorant of the most basic history, law, and proper knowledge of a citizen of this country as well? I can understand that science is beyond your mental abilities, but I can't believe that understanding basic religious freedom in the US is, too.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
If there is no God, why do you exisist? To go to work, make as much money (with God's name on it) and then pass it on to you kids when you die and rot in the ground? What a good reason to live.
Whereas an existence squandered trying to please an imaginary cosmic psychopath, that's livin'!
Uh huh. That's just real nice.
BradB, if there is a lot of good science in the museum of religious origins, please cite the scientific journals where the information is found. Exclude any journals sponsered by creationist groups and stick to the mainstream scientific journals. I'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting...........
Because creationism is pure religion with no science. If you lie about that,what else will you lie about? No flood occured in the geological record, so another lie. So just another Liar for JebusTM who should be ignored.
To go to work, make as much money (with God's name on it)
Ummmm.....God's name isn't "God."
Oh, and "you" does Not = "your"
"If there is no God, why do you exisist?" <-note sp error
"--Because my parents had sexual relations 37 some years ago."
Rev, that isn't a "why" answer. The correct answer for D's purpose would be something like: "To spread ignorance, intolerance, and generally make an ass out of myself."
Dear dickhead, if you had anything but lies and name-calling (oh, and changing the name you use--which is not supposed to be allowed here), you'd be treated in kind, perhaps not by all, but by many. Right now you're simply getting back what you are dishing out, except that we're not lying when we call you stupid, etc., while you're lying with virtually every sentence.
As it is, you call us intolerant, and we call you various versions of "stupid" and "dishonest," which you clearly are ("dickhead" is meant in that vein, which I tell you only because you apparently have no intelligence). So we're telling the truth about you, while you're lying about us.
Makes you a complete hypocrite, and a reproach to Christ and all that is your religion. But thanks for dragging religion through the mud, as your intolerance and bigotry is one of the most compelling (if not necessarily all that fair) argument against all that you proclaim.
Why can't you dumbfucks ever do anything but whine about how "ill-treated" you are? You only show that you're vapid and pathetic by doing so.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
You mean, a few lies.
Lie.
Lie. There is no theology at all in evolution; just the evidence and the theory.
That doesn't stop theologians from giving a theological interpretation to evolution, but that has nothing to do with the evidence itself.
Lie.
Lie.
True, but irrelevant.
Half-truth. Many missing links have been found.
Lie.
Lie.
Lie.
Lie. There is no scientific surface in creationism.
There is lots of good science in Creation; lots of bad theology in evolution.
Oh boy.
Everything decays, not improves.
And that explains why you're an infant-sized puddle of putrescent sludge. You are, aren't you?
No it doesn't, there's more evidence for evolution than there is for the holocaust. The amount of evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that in science it's hard to think of a more fundamental truth, maybe heliocentrism. We know more about evolution than we do about gravity. Being a creationist is the scientific equivalent of being a holocaust denier; there's no evidence for creation at all and you are deluding yourself into thinking there is.
GD, you state that I am ignorant in science like you know me. This conclusion, like evolution, is based on skewed assumptions. In concluding that I am ignorant in science, you are assuming that only evolution is considered science. I am a scientist, a creationist, a microevolutionist (yeah, God built in the capability of adapatability), but not a macroevolutionist.
Hey yeah, aren't we about three months behind on the Molly's? Or did I miss it while my elbow was cracked?
Today I have a good excuse, my head is cracked by that monumental pile of troll crap Paliban Mom left in the corner.
Sure there is some of that but there is plenty of well reasoned and fact based responses as well. You'll ignore those of course.
Projection defined
I doubt it but give it a shot
zero to fail in one sentence
There is no theology in evolution. You fail again
No it does not even a little bit. You are just regurgitating nonsense now. What's next that the Mt. Saint Helens erruption proves how quickly errosion can happen?
Bingo
That's a straw man. Congratulations, you've obviously been paying attention in Creationist debate tactics class.
You really need to keep up with the current state of affairs.
2nd law again? Really. Please.
Of your incredible ignorance? I'm sure.
Oh dear, it seems that D is one of those maverick scientists, you betcha!
Sure there is some of that but there is plenty of well reasoned and fact based responses as well. You'll ignore those of course.
Projection defined
I doubt it but give it a shot
zero to fail in one sentence
There is no theology in evolution. You fail again
No it does not even a little bit. You are just regurgitating nonsense now. What's next that the Mt. Saint Helens erruption proves how quickly errosion can happen?
Bingo
That's a straw man. Congratulations, you've obviously been paying attention in Creationist debate tactics class.
You really need to keep up with the current state of affairs.
2nd law again? Really. Please. Even your creationist cohorts at AIG shy away from this one these days.
Of your incredible ignorance? I'm sure.
D, then you can show us the convincing physical proof for your imagainary god?
Good scientific proof?
As a scientist, you should know that god cannot be the conclusion or explanation for a scientific observation.
So you are just a bad scientist and let your belief in imaginary beings intrude into the evidence based science.
No there are plenty of other things considered science. Creationism is not one of them.
Are you crazy or are you a liar? Lets find out:
If, as you say, you are "microevolutionist", please explain what stops microevolution from becoming macroevolution when it occurs over 1,000,000+ years?
Care to share what it is that makes you a "scientist"?
It's a job description, you know, not an ideology like "Baptist."
"There is lots of good science in Creation; lots of bad theology in evolution. The flood of Noah makes good sense of most of the scientific data, including marine fossils world wide at every level."
Theory, theology; hmmm, they aren't synonymns, so whatever you are talking about is a lie. If the Flood was correct, why are all the fossils in the RIGHT ORDER?! Where are the precambrian bunnies, chickens, people? Where did all the water come and go? Good Science is for you as the Phlogiston theory is to Thermodynamics. Take your bullshit- if that isn't an insult to the bulls, elswhere.
Patricia, PZ is behind with the Mollies.
Actually, only science is considered to be science. Pseudoscience is called that precisely because it only has the form of science, and no science.
So you're lying through your teeth about both science and yourself, as well as accusing falsely (no matter that you may be too ignorant and stupid to understand that you're dishonest, you have an obligation to be better informed before stating what you do, so that doesn't save your dishonesty).
Back up your falsehoods, or just be known for the lying a-hole that you are. And I mean that you have to come up with evidence for creationism/ID, and to show your work.
Since you will utterly fail to do so (we have exhaustively addressed nearly all creationist claims, so we know wherein we speak), I will henceforth ignore your mindless prattle (not a promise, an intention--very likely the case because the stale recycled lies of you and yours on this thread are incredibly tiresome, which I've only gotten into this much because the newer threads aren't very interesting).
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
bradb,
*sigh*
This troll-pummeling is getting to be a full-time job. I suspect that your full Gish Gallop of lack-wittery is a parody, but...
No, many people are name-calling because imbeciles like you puke out a galloping chyme of ignorance and stupidity that takes time and effort to refute. It is a manifestation of their frustration at your willful blithering ignorance and cretinism that they insult you.
Bollocks. Pure and simple. There is absolutely no good science whatsoever in creationism. It is a position of abject ignorance and crass stupidity based solely in bronze-age holy books written by neo-literate goatherds without the scientific knowledge of a kindergartner. Evolution is an empirically observed phenomenon; a fact, observed in nature and in the lab in a half-dozen mutually consistent ways with mountains of empirical evidence. Natural selection, and other factors such as genetic drift, together form a cogent and consistent theory that explains the phenomenon. These are amongst the best attested-to theories in all science.
There isn't a shred of evidence that any such global flood ever took place, and there is a burgeoning mountain of evidence that it never did. Fine sedimentary layers in the geological record, for example, could only have settled over a very long period of time, in direct contradiction to the Biblical flood.
The fact that volcanic eruptions are sudden phenomena has exactly no bearing on the existence of unrelated slower phenomena any more than the existence of F16's makes bicycles impossible.
"Missing links" are a creationist canard. No biologist, palæontologist, or anyone with the slightest understanding of what evolution means expects to find "missing links". What they do find are fossil evidence of common ancestry, absolutely consistent with evolution.
The flawed notion of irreducible complexity has been systematically dismantled, refuted, and shown to be entirely without foundation in evidence. Every example of so-called "irreducible complexity" proposed by its cretinous proponents has been explained in a manner consistent with evolution.
This is another soundbite trotted out by the armies of half-witted morons that seek to elevate the mythology of Levantine nomads to a platform equal to science. Insofar as it is not entirely devoid of meaning, it is plainly false.
Which, plainly, you have not.
Think PZ will hand out Christmas Mollies?
That would be sweet!
The macro-evolution vs. micro-evolution nonsense always makes me think of macro-economics vs. micro-economics.
Do creationists also believe in micro-economics but not macro-economics?
How about macroscopes vs. microscopes? Do they believe in the really small things but not the not-quite-so-small things? Why?
Hypothesis: creationists are thick.
Proof for: D, BradB, Colleen, and Paliban Mom.
Yo D, where did you go to school? Do they really have a course in microevolution and one in macroevolution?
Yikes! You have our sympathy.
I am honestly amazed at the hoops one must jump through to continue believing they aren't a complete dolt. Please drop the pretending - you are a creationist. Comforting yourself underneath your blankey of microevolution is like believing in partial virginity. Or could I say that you believe in micro-virginity but not in macro-virginity?
That's like being an educated ignoramus or an intelligent imbecile: grammatically correct, but an oxymoron.
Thus spake Sven DiMilo:
Thanks Sven, though I suspect that, being a few months behind on announcing the winners of the last few elections, PZ has all but abandoned the Mollies. IIRC, SC, Nick Gotts, and a couple of others had (by my reckoning) won the last two rounds, but PZ never announced any results.
The difference, though, is that macro-economics and micro-economics actually do refer to processes having at least somewhat different causes. This is not so with "microevolution" and "macroevolution," that is, not as creationists normally use those terms (vs. the meaningful distinction used by biologists). The fact is that for almost all of these dolts, "microevolution" insensibly grades into "macroevolution," with similar effects being assigned to different causes, in violation of science and of the philosophy of science.
So although I like your analogy (which is apt to a point), I still would not wish to imply through that analogy that there are distinctions between creationists' "microevolution" and "macroevolution" analogous with the real distinctions between micro-economics and macro-economics.
What the creationists do is more like stating that "linguistic microevolution" accounts for the diversification of the Romance languages, while denying that "linguistic macroevolution" is responsible for Greek diverging from Latin, even though the same sort of effects point to essentially the same causes in both cases. The fact is that their "microevolution" is simply what becomes their "macroevolution" over a longer period of time, as evidenced by the fact that it is exactly the same sorts of evidence are behind "both processes."
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
So you are a holocaust denier who doesn't deny outright that a couple of Jews died, but won't talk to the extent of which the evidence points... got it.
How do you explain the galaxies that are 13 billion light years away? The age of our solar system through several techniques to be 4.6 billion years? The gradual emergence of life in the fossil record? Are you saying that all cosmology, astronomy, nuclear physics and palaeontology is wrong?
"Thanks Sven, though I suspect that, being a few months behind on announcing the winners of the last few elections, PZ has all but abandoned the Mollies. IIRC, SC, Nick Gotts, and a couple of others had (by my reckoning) won the last two rounds, but PZ never announced any results."
BOOOOO PZ! Give out the mollies! If he doesn't do a post announcing the results soon, i'll be mad. We could easily go without knowing what Ken Ham's up to for a while. But the mollies are an integral part of this site.
Why thank you Patricia. A glow on a girl is a good thing. Hopefully, my 'apology' at #269 won't go unappreciated. ;)
I bow to your troll tramping skills (I'm not just looking at your cleavage, honest!) and respectfully step aside. I have troll poop to scrape off my shoe anyway. Ew, anyone have a stick - it's way up between the lugs on these soles.
"People who respond like this are upset because their world view doesn't add up and they feel if they can put down the opposition by being nasty, they win. But they only show their ignorance & fear."
Not necessarily. Be careful of generalizations -- when you get upset or angry, does that automatically mean you secretly know you're wrong? Always, and in every case?
Don't mistake style for substance. Whether or not evolution occurred is not going to be discovered by seeing who flatters, soothes, and supports your preconceived views in the gentlest and most gratifying way. Truth stands or falls on the evidence, and is vetted rigorously and objectively among experts in the field. We don't "believe" scientists because they tell us what we want to hear. We respect a process which rewards showing revered, respected, nice and not-so-nice people that they're wrong.
If you want a "nice" world view which will reassure you, and make you feel safe and happy, then pick a religion. Any religion, it doesn't matter. I'm sure you can find nice, polite, comfortable Mormons or Muslims or Hindus or Wiccans or whatever floats your boat. You can have Truthiness -- Faith -- the quality of being wanted to be True.
If you care about accuracy, however, then you'll have to give up your concern for style, and replace it with a concern for real substance. And there goes "nice" as a criteria for truth.
Thanks Glen.
Good thing my major wasn't Econ! I learn something new here almost every day. Proper punctuation and grammar might be my creationist 'kryptonite', though. ;)
Let's see if anyone can help me with the macro-virginity vs. micro-virginity thing...
Clearly, micro-virginity is that of ordinary females before they have sex, while macro-virginity is that which is enforced by the Almighty God, Creator of Heaven and Earth, after a particular female has already given birth...
"To go to work, make as much money (with God's name on it) and then pass it on to you kids when you die and rot in the ground? What a good reason to live."
What's your higher purpose?
That depends on whether the "W" stands for "Wendy" or "William" ;o)
And don't think that either I or Joseph thanked him for that particular trick.
Respecting idiocy and name-calling are the mark of true science, of course. Let's see, how does Newton stack up against the standards of these trolls:
Yes, Newton, the theist that creationists like to trot out (as though relevant to evolution and to post-Kantian philosophy), is obviously a fraud who was only scared that his worldview was threatened by Hooke.
Btw, Newton often is considered to have been often intemperate, which diminishes his science not one whit. To be sure, he at least had the sense to ignore nattering trolls, but then he wasn't fighting the endless recycled nonsense of the creationists (or commenting on blogs for the sake of entertainment). It is, and always was, a fallacy to attack the person, and not the argument, and of course our trolls only attack persons because they can't even address the arguments.
One thing about ad hominem attacks, though. There really should be an addendum stuck to it that it just so happens that those who cannot and/or do not address the actual issue are indeed open to be called on their ignorance and stupidity. Most, if not all, scientific geniuses did so with their critics at some point or other, with varying degrees of tact and politeness.
Neither Newton nor Galileo used tact and politeness much with their critics, which seems to have contributed to Galileo's persecution (which is to say that persecuting anyone for lack of tact and politeness is as wrong as just about any other reason.
It is the attack against bluntly stated truth that marks the fear that the anti-scientists are unable to shake, at least not when they come onto forums like this one.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Can we have a link to the dictionary definition of intolerance embedded somewhere on the main page? I'm getting really tired of these morons who have no idea what it means.
Here's a tip for the visitors here - it doesn't mean either a) pointing out when Liars for Jesus™ are lying or b) agitating to rally rational, intelligent people to block the attempts of lying scumbags to promote their antiscience agenda.
Fucking idiots.
I've totally lost track of the Molly vote and who's been slapped into the pit. Rev. BigDumpChimp was the last winner I can remember.
Rev. BigDumpChimp? Who is the sad sack who has to clean out Chimpy's pen?
Sometimes Mrs Bigdumbchimp....
sometimes Mr. BigDumbChimp
now damn it. Where did all those fun little trollies go?
I HATE drive by trolls
"I'll say it again. The first tactic to avoid addressing the hard question of the validity of religious belief is to reply with a criticism of those who don't believe. Don't fall for it." -- (PZ Myers)
"Your arguments are far too stupid to require defense. Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success." -- (Ed Brayton)
"You don't have to teach both sides of a debate if one side is a load of crap." -- (Bill Maher)
Slight correction of #318:
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | December 3, 2008
I HATE drive by trolls
Yeah, they are not as cool as Drive By Truckers.
Also, I just want to point out, I will never again argue with The Queen Of Sluts about the title of Queen Of Typos. I can never top Rev. BigDumpChimp.
Teach both sides:
The loch ness monster and bigfoot exist
Having an opposing opinion on an event or process doesn't give it any validity, you need evidence to give it validity.
Oh, for crying out loud! Sorry about that typo Chimpy.
Thanks Janine...I didn't even notice it, had to look twice. Sheesh!
Not the first time that's been done.... usually though it's on purpose
BigDumpShit or
BigDumbShit
soon followed by some creationist telling me that "no really, Evolution DOES violate the 2nd law".
Typos I understand.
Mostly I just see people who take inordinate pleasure in the fact that Rev. is willingly calling himself a bug dumb chimp. We usually don't get the potty-mouthed trolls here, we get the ones who are ignorant, arrogant, argue in bad faith, but get on their high horses because they don't use naughty language. You know, the usual shallow thinkers that heavy doses of religion cause.
bug dumb chimp.... *snort*
Yeah it gives me all kinds of pleasure that they attack my name and ignore my points.
It's pretty telling and why I've left it as it.
It is pretty sad if you were in any way offended by the Cincinnati Zoo having a joint promotion with the Creation Museum . I don't care what your point of view is on the Creation Museum , whether you are mad because it may promote a religious point of view or if it just strait out contradicts your beliefs (whatever they may be). Maybe you need to have a little more of an open mind (that is what all YOU secular people say about Christians). Take a bit of your own advice, maybe even visit the Creation Museum , YOU MIGHT POSSIBLY LEARN SOMETHING!!! The Creation Museum is not an international laughingstock. Your just afraid of something that tells you, you are PISS-POOR MORALLY. Your quote is immature and unintelligent, and you should think twice before you write another complaint to a public or private establishment whining about how this as personally offended you. Whaa Whaa!!! Suck it up and grow some balls and have a little tolerance. Practice what you preach, but NOOO you couldn't do that if it has anything to do with the idea of God or Creation, FORGET IT you all throw tolerance out the window and become the same type of people who you are complaining about.
The creationism is the scientific equivalent of holocaust denial. Would you tell those who are outraged if the zoo allied with a holocaust denial museum that they needed to be more open minded?
No. I've seen the walkthrough.
The Creation Museum is indeed a colossal international laughingstock.
Who wants to bet that is Keith Allen again?
I love posts like that. You can almost see the spittle hitting the computer monitor as he yells out the words he's typing.
Don't know who Keith Allen is, but more than 100,000 visitors in 8 weeks. Colossal Success!!! Maybe a laughingstock in the Scientist World!!! Wooo!!
Keith Allen is a troll who spoke in the occasional CAPITALS the same way as YOU did in ORDER to MAKE a point. IT was ANNOYING!!!
ANNOYING it might be, but fearfully true. Accidentally stumbled across this page when looking for the article and I have an open mind and wanted to express my views. Sorry no spittles on my computer. Doesn't matter what other say everyone it entitled to there own opinions it is pinnons like yourselves that get up in arms when a little promotional deal like this comes along. The sad thing is that both of these institutions could care less. You know what they are in it for: MONEY BABY!!!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn't stop them from being wrong. Creationism is about as far from the truth as you can possibly get, it's an explicit rejection of several fields of science and an implicit rejection of others. You have to reject: cosmology, astronomy, nuclear physics, geology, palaeontology, all of biology and biochemistry. There's more evidence to support evolution than there is historical evidence to support the holocaust, so again I ask if this were a holocaust denial museum as opposed to a creation museum would you be telling those opposed to the deal to "keep an open mind"?Reality is not subjective, ideas are not equal, and you don't need to type words in capitals to get your point across.
I doubt it. Although "The Man Who Can't Spell 'Knew' (And Uses Multiple Exclamation Points, The Sure Sign Of A Deranged Mind)" may also have a mental condition such as bipolar, and is currently in the manic phase.
Sigh. PZ must have left some troll-bait lying around the garbage bins; that's the only thing that might explain the sudden arrival of these new, excrement-covered losers who think they've got something new that we haven't seen and dealt with dozens of times before, or an hilarious snarky style (multiple exclamaton points, for example) that has any impact on us whatsoever.
I don't think the fresh incompetent is KA. The lack of scare quotes is an indicator. But he's probably a close family member - which in their case means brothers and cousins - since he's got almost as poor a grasp of punctuation and vocabulary as KA.
Wow Owlmirror, i have read that as "Knew" this entire time! Maybe my brain doesn't want me to observe such stupidity so that i don't hurt myself by thinking upon it (i'm already starting to get a headache from it)?
"Your just afraid of something that tells you, you are PISS-POOR MORALLY. "
Again I ask, how do you know we're morally bad? What are the horrible things you imagine us doing?
It is credible because so many americans in their hearts believe its credible. Your democracy is built on the idea that what the people think does matter