Did anyone else get a recent flood of email from Michael Korn?

Would this guy have to be Muslim before we here on the news about an individual expressing terrorist threats against working US scientists who is now eluding police at large?

What, do you just get a complete pass from being labeled "terrorist," no matter how many people you wish to or even succeed in killing, as long as you're some lunatic fundamentalist Christian?

That should be "hear" on the news, instead of "here" on the news, sorry for the typo.

He's probably heading for Florida. These loons seem to gravitate down there frequently when they run like the cowards they truly are.

They'll catch him when he eventually blows something up (or scrape him off a wall when his stupidity catches up with him). I fully expect to be hearing about him on the news eventually... because El Cid's right. We don't hear about home-grown fundie terrorists in the "liberally-biased" media until they actually hurt someone.

How long until the Religious Right protests his imminent capture on grounds of religious freedom? "We're being persecuted!"

Well, this serves as sufficiently unambiguous evidence that Korn actually WAS the guy sending threatening letters.

It will be useful to remember this case in the future.

PZ, as many commentors have already suggested, contact your local authorities and even the Feebs.
Seriously.
And let us know, okay?

I am just a lowly student, so I haven't received any threats (yet), but I have recently started to receive plenty of emails from J.C.'s Little Proselytizers. Good Lord (if I may)! They are in BAD form. I can't even make an argument out of the two page paragraphs and the (sometimes) CAPS LOCK CRUISE CONTROL!!!!!

P.S. I think I stole that "cruise control" comment from someone. aka, I am unoriginal.

Would this guy have to be Muslim before we here on the news about an individual expressing terrorist threats against working US scientists who is now eluding police at large?

Good point, but one that will obviously be ignored by the public. He's not a terrorist, he's a persecuted Christian faith warrior.

"Well, this serves as sufficiently unambiguous evidence that Korn actually WAS the guy sending threatening letters.

No, it doesn't. There have been plenty of people railroaded into unjust convictions on the basis of 'He wouldn't have run if he didn't do it.' and it's crap logic whether it is a lunatic like Korn or a black man accused of raping a white woman during Jim Crow (just to throw the reasoning into the starkest possible light).

I don't see any reason to doubt Korn is the guy, but bad and dangerous reasoning is bad and dangerous reasoning no matter who it is applied to and that reasoning has long been a favourite of police and prosecutors who lack actual evidence. Expunging the idea that only the guilty run will be a step toward reducing wrongful convictions.

What Bruce said--including the UMM police force, to the degree such an entity exists.

I was amazed that wired thought those threats were bad. I've seen plenty worse.

(a list here: http://membracid.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/weekly-wtf-more-threats-by-cr…
)

I don't see any reason to doubt Korn is the guy, but bad and dangerous reasoning is bad and dangerous reasoning no matter who it is applied to and that reasoning has long been a favourite of police and prosecutors who lack actual evidence.

I didn't say that his guilt logically followed. But, given the circumstances, we can abandon any reticence we may have had about calling him guilty.

If he is actually innocent of sending those messages, he's done the worst possible thing he could, short of taking hostages.

An anti-evolutionary Christian extremist suspected of sending threatening letters to biology professors at the University of Colorado has gone on the lam, according to a staff member familiar with a police investigation into the matter.

Ominous development. Will we see another Waco, Ruby Ridge, Paul Hill, World Trade Center towers, Oklahoma federal building, Eric Rudolph etc..

The CU, Boulder administration would have to be totally brain dead not to have enhanced security around the biology building right now. Their legal liability, credibility, and jobs are on the line if anything bad happens on campus and MK is involved.

Perhaps you should get in contact with Jeffry Mitton (if you haven't already)at the UofC. He seems to know what's going on, and there may be information he has that's not being reported that may be of interest to you. Those biology professors in Colorado recieved threats for simply teaching reality, while you, in addition to teaching reality, have actually taken a stand against Korns' brand of lunacy. He may be harmless,but he definitely "ain't right" and I adjure you to get all the info you can.

1. I guess we will find out if the CU terrorist is a lone crank or part of a network or organization. Wandering around the USA gets expensive fast unless you have a destination in mind. And Korn didn't strike me as the independently wealthy type. In fact, he seemed to be unemployed.

Let's hope he doesn't hole up in some small town somewhere in Minnesota or something.

2. Not sure what laws are being broken here. If he hasn't been arrested or indicted, as far as I can tell, everyone has freedom of movement in the USA. And leaving town is an old and effective way of avoiding problems. Definitely looks like a lot more is going on under the surface than we know about right now. Wonder if the cops are going to put out an All Points Bulletin or if Korn will end up on a wanted poster in the post office? LOL, not a great career choice IMO.

"every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society."

So much for the sixth commandment.

Holy crap. PZ, what everyone else said, OK?

Every person to whom this goon's sent stuff should get his photo, blow it up, and post it by every office building -- and publicize that they're doing so. If Korn knows that his mug's being plastered everywhere, it might keep him from doing something really stupid.

Not a bad idea Phoenix Woman - I've only gotten a little from him, and I live across an ocean, so I obviously don't take him seriously as a threath. However, people living in the US, and receiving threaths (or mails that could be perceived as such) should certainly take their precautions.

My search-fu isn't working. Where can I get a photo of this guy?

I don't like the sound of this at all, PZ. I do hope you will contact your campus and local police, just a heads up for them and a little peace of mind for yourself.

Where can I get a photo of this guy?

From his site, for one.

(I also saved it, 'case it disappears... sure others have).

Wandering around the USA gets expensive fast unless you have a destination in mind.

Don't forget that any place in the USA has fundamentalist churches where he can go for sympathetic shelter, food and other necessities. He could stay underground quite a while that way.

What makes you think he's in Colorado? Faith? Tsk, Tsk!

There are no bigger targets for the creationismfascists than you.

Absolutely. Just look at how long Eric Rudolph was on the lam.

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Thanks, AJ. Saved a copy for myself.

Don't forget that any place in the USA has fundamentalist churches where he can go for sympathetic shelter, food and other necessities. He could stay underground quite a while that way.

Harboring a fugitive from justice is just the xian thing to do, I guess. That would make Korn part of a network or conspiracy and the churches accessories to a crime. Of course, in their view, Korn might be a martyr to the cause rather than a wingnut terrorist.

Not sure how unified the fundie cults are. IIRC Falwell, Robertson, and Billy Graham all hated each other for schizmatic reasons. There are so many variants on the theme, I've never been able to keep track of them. Never wanted to either. What is the difference between Pentocostal, evangelical, etc..sects?

... and not to freak anyone out more still, but if he immigrated to Israel after graduation as he says, might he well have had some military training? Israel has conscription. Believe it's a pretty short period if you're much past 20, but still, he'd have had a bit of training, at least.

You mean Korn Dog?

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

I'm still pondering Douglas Adams' contention that many (most?) people still need an artificial god to find meaning for their life:

http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/

I think these nutcases (Korn, not Adams ;-/ ) indeed all nutcases, prove the point. Faced with a total loss of self-worth they turn to something that seems worthy and permanent - religion. One at a time they are an oddity that occasionally turns lethal. As a group, they are a menace to humanity itself. Which is the point that Hitchens makes here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY8fjFKAC5k

"And this is the religion that exhibits the horrible trio of self-hatred, self-righteousness, and self-pity."

A toxic mix that always shows up in the psyche of every religious nutcase. Well, okay, every nutcase, but they usually drag religion into their nuttery.

I think we, humanity as a whole, are in a transitional period where we're disposing of the old artificial gods and transitioning to new ones. It's going to be a messy process, but I think if we think of it -as- a process we can get a better grip on managing it.

PS: My charactization of Korn as a nutcase is my opinion and not an assertion, so don't sue me.

Arm thyself.

All of you should be careful about opening packages, this guy seems to be one step away from being another Theodore Kaczynski.

Anyone got a flyer? Nothing in Google Image Search yet:

"(Korn's) picture has been circulated on flyers saying: 'If you see this guy dial this number,'"
bigdumbchimp.blogspot.com/ - Jul 20, 2007

Hey! Wait just a minute here! I thought God The All Powerful promised No More Floods? Was he lying then, or is he lying now...

He's not the only X-ian to resort to terrorism. Fortunately they seem to incompetent to ever actually pull it off.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/161625.html

I'd get body armor.

Seriously - religious nutcases need their own room at the crazy house. Korn probably ran off to Hovind's "museum" and is now residing in the tail section of the plaster dinosaur.
Be careful.

from the story posted by Brian:

On Thursday, Jered Michael Ragon, 18, voluntarily went to the police station for questioning after Calaway and Plaisted implicated him, police Detective T. Catron said. Police called a MedStar ambulance because Ragon's feet were burned, and a emergency medical crew treated him at the station.

Ragon had gotten gasoline on his feet as he tried to destroy evidence from the church fire in the field, and his feet were burned, Catron said.

*shakes head*

too bad he didn't finish the job on himself, then he could have been nominated for a Darwin award.

Well J-dog, down south of the border in England they are having more than their fair share of floods. Very global warming it is. God must be both a Scotsman and a golfer though since the Open just along the coast from here has enjoyed reasonable weather though the wind blew a bit today, enough to discomfort Tiger anyway. Lots of sunshine for my seedlings too which is nice.

More amusement: "The suspects said the group has three levels of involvement: Bible study, consensual fighting and destructive acts. Because one of their beliefs is free thought, however, participation in all three levels is not mandatory, they told police."

What do you get when you mix religious nuttery with Fight Club? These guys.

James Kopp was on the lam (for murder) for 3 years with a little help from his Christofascist friends.

None of this is helping, is it?

@ #31:

Thanks for the Douglas Adams link - I'd never seen that transcript before. Excellent stuff.

PZ

The blog looks good on the iPhone. At the soho store playing with one.

El Cid,

Eric Robert Rudolph is called a terrorist, and no, he doesn't get a pass because he's a christian.

-jcr

PZ, I been wondering what all those freaking emails were about, the guy ain't coherent and thinks me as a Christian is opened minded about the process in which God may have created life, that I am more dangerous. But we have conceal carry in Texas and I sport a Taurus 357. So if'n he bugs me I'll take care of him for ya.

Besides I like Korn, and I got me a big o'l pot to boil him in. Lord have mercy on me, but why did you let this evangelical (Satans's work) crap get out of hand.

Just teasing no emails to me.

PZ - I don't know if your small town is anything like the ones I've lived in, but when an outsider comes to town everyone seems to notice. Usually the new face becomes the talk of the town just for buying coffee at the local diner. And all the locals know the police just like on the old tv show, Mayberry RFD.

Michael at 2:16- my thoughts exactly. And PZ- since you're in Colorado, shoot to kill, on sight. He was coming right for you.

is Minneapolis-St. Paul close enough to Morris for you?

What do you mean by "close enough", Mr Korn? Minneapolis is on the other side of the state from me, about a 3 hour drive away.

Oh, and your IP address, 198.86.116.230, puts you in North Carolina. That's even farther away, in case you're confused.

very good. you know how to analyze an IP address.

you seem to think that i need to personally track you down. but no, its much simpler. i can rely on prayer to motivate the God you hate to destroy the godless heretic He hates.

your name is jewish. thanks for being a "light to the nations" and teaching Gentiles to hate their Creator.

are you one of those jews who whine perpetually about the Holocaust? why? Hitler greatly admired your pal Darwin and acted according to the dictates of his logic!

but in my experience, Jews like you who oppose Creationism received plenty of hebraic education in your youths and even believe in the Genesis account. your support of Darwin is simply a ploy to emasculate Christianity, while leaving Judaism to reign supreme. many, like my own biochemist father, think they are actually serving God's interest by destroying the simple faith of the average Christian. but they are gravely mistaken, since rather than serving as a light to the nations they are blinding them to their Creator.

if Jews want the Gentile world to respect them, they must learn to respect the fact that the Gentile world also is created in God's image. you vainly imagine that by denigrating the Godly image of Gentiles you alone will remain to reign supreme. but really in destroying the Divine image of the rest of humanity you also are dooming yourselves. like the fool who drills a hole in the bottom of a boat and imagines that he can enjoy the ride while everyone else drowns.

in fact Jesus rebuked them with these very same words in the famous parable in Luke 20:

The Parable of the Tenants
9He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13"Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'

14"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

17Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[a]'[b]? 18Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

19The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

wake up before it is too late. the more you mess with God's creation, the more reason you give for God to pour out His wrath upon you. He has withheld His anger because you too, as His creature, deserve His love. but His patience is not infinite. and your doom in hell will be when it finally runs out...

PZ, I hope you're sharing this whole exchange with the local authorities and the FBI...this guy is not only seriously delusional, he's escalating.

I am just cathching up on this story. Can anyone point me to the actual death threats. I don't want to invest myself if they are no truly death threats. The authorities seem to be somewhat in doubt as to if a crime was committed.

Anyone who thinks they can pray for god to punish his enemies and thinks that's a moral thing to do, and that it will actually happen.

Is not in touch with reality.

Wouldn't be surprised that he has visions or hears voices in his head.

There were threats. No one mentioned if they were death threats.

"I'm going to kick your ass" isn't a death threat. It is a threat however.

Repent or be punished is a threat.

Yeah, he's mainly made veiled threats -- messages to let me know that he knows who I am and where I live, that sort of thing. He's all bluster, though -- that silly attempt to imply that he's in the twin cities when he's linking in from North Carolina makes him look rather pathetic. They're not just veiled threats, they're empty veiled threats.

And yes, I'm keeping the local police informed, more for their entertainment than because I'm worried.

Dave:

You can start here.

i am not threatening you. i am warning you that God will destroy you if you dont stop lying about darwin. there is no evidence for macroevolution, and therefore God can destroy you for being a liar in addition to a blasphemer.

if i didnt care about you and all your deceived colleagues, i wouldnt warn you.

you might not like the message i bear, but at least be grateful i care enough to exhort you to reconsider your intellectually dishonest views.

not like most Christians who despise what you teach, but wont utter a word in protest, because they dont care if you spend eternity in hell.

but i do...

btw, do you consider all pastors who give fire and brimstone sermons about sinners being damned to hell to be terrorist hate mongering threat proliferators?

on one point i will agree with you, though. most christians are pathetic wimps and dishonest to boot. they prefer to rant and rave about the "moslem" enemy across the sea than to attack the enemies of american society who lurk within.

those enemies are darwinian teachings, for one. american christians will not attack the domestic enemies, because it might endanger their ministries, their tithes and offerings, their profitability. but i am homeless and have no vested monetary interest in my ministry. that is why i can speak the truth to you in love.

but most christians love mammon and therefore their voices are silenced.

He needs psychiatric help obviously. I hope he gets some.

No one is worried about god here. Just deluded christians with nothing left to lose but something to prove.

I read the article at http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/07/creatoterrorism_1.html

There were several loosely quoted remarks there, but nothing of substance yet. I'm wondering why these documents are not being posted in their entirety? The fact they are not leads me to believe this is much less a matter of threat than of annoyance.

Whatta maroon. I would love to see a psychological case study on this guy. Possibly involving electrodes and genitals.

Here's hoping Christian Psychoboy ends up on the wrong side of a police firearm...suicide by cop would be funny as hell.

Acts 19:23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
Acts 19:25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at naught; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
Acts 19:28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Acts 19:29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theater.
Acts 19:30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.
Acts 19:31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theater.
Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
Acts 19:33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defense unto the people.
Acts 19:34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Acts 19:35 And when the town clerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshiper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
Acts 19:36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
Acts 19:37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
Acts 19:38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.
Acts 19:39 But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.
Acts 19:40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse.
Acts 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

The fact is that any knowledgable christian will indeed blaspheme darwinian evolution and all other evolutionary thought, micro mutant evolution excepted. Posit the existence of God and Heaven, Satan and Hell. If evolution, and the teaching of it, is persuasive to cause children of any age, K-12 and beyond, that there is no after life and no God to believe , no Gospel to believe, no need to repent and believe, NO Christ who grants the ability to believe... and these children wind up for eternity in hell??? The deceived will be held to a lesser punishment than the "churchman" who teaches evolution, but all, ALL need to consider:

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Rey 7:12 Your book's a bunch of hooey and it carries no weight here.

I knew it was coming.

Dave the apologist sympathizer.

"Dave the apologist sympathizer."

...and bible quote spammer.

Apparently, quoting the bible IS an excuse for not thinking.

Quoting the bible is evidence of not thinking. Believing in the bible is evidence of an inability to think on the part of the believer. Religion is a sickness of the mind which preys upon the foolish and the weak.

I marvel how quickly you begin to slander me as unthinking and a spammer. You must do this or actually address the points I make. In fact it seems that at the appearance of the Bible verses your thinking capacity vaporizes!

I am no sympathizer. I am a fellow apologist. You might find that to be able to present the Bible accurately takes a lot of thought, were you ever inclined to read it with a mind to understand it. I have had to do this on my own largely, for apart from a few bible colleges and teachers, most churchmen are not teaching it.

Did anyone see the parallel betwen the Ephesian Diana worshippers and the Darwinian ape worshippers? If the creationists were evr vindicated and received as there were before the scopes trial there would be not a few psuedo scientists and professors on the beach.

It all would be humorous if not for the multitudes of wasted lives walking into hell's gates singing the praises of Darwin.

Here's a challenge for you: Tell us who now are the "favored races"?

Psalm 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psalm 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dave, quoting scripture doesn't do anything here. It doesn't disprove evolution, it doesn't excuse Korn's actions and it sure doesn't do anything to convince a large part of us that you and Korn aren't completely off your rockers.

Addressing actual points instead of spamming bible verses would be a better choice to address the issues above.

How am I to take YOU seriously when you call yourself a (Rev.) BigDumbChimp? It is hard to take your views seriously when you call yourself that. Those who dismiss God dismiss the image they are created in, and sink to lesser images.

We are persuaded by God of hell to come for the unbelievers. We love you enough to warn you, and to oppose the satanic verses of westen academia, namely evolutionary doctrine. We would not be as vigilant in this opposition were the creationist doctrine also offered in public schools and universities. The work of creationists is of a high standard. Unless I am wrong, and I think not, you and most of your colleagues around the world are far less studied in creation science than creationists are in evolutionary theory and "evidence".

The thing that puts you on the other side of the river is the politics and economics of academia, IMHO.

Dave sez: "...I think not..." and who can argue with that?

I'll have you know that I am legally an ordained Reverend.

The work of creationists is of a high standard.

In comedy yes. It is so fraught with poor technique and distortion of actual science that it is laughable.

For those viewers joining our program already in progress, Dave has already run up 150 dungeon points for Concern Trolling, Godbotting and Insipidity. Join us now for Double Wankery, where the scores can really change!

How am I to take YOU seriously when you call yourself a (Rev.) BigDumbChimp?

I think most here couldn't care less whether they are taken seriously by idiots.

Why remain where I am rejected out of hand. Pearls before swine??? You still have yet to show Mr. Korn's offenses as anything more than an annoyance to your godlessness. Similar to my offenses, I supppose. I really appreciate the FACT that I can talk to God about you. And about Mr. Korn, for whom I am asking divine guidance and protection.

The history of iconoclasts had a new chapter begun when liberal pols and evolutioninsts enshrined the likes of Chas. Darwin and Lucy. May God bless everyone of us by exposing and destroying your icons before the entire world, even today.

I really appreciate the FACT that I can talk to God about you.

I guess the question is, does he talk back?

Here's a challenge for you: Tell us who now are the "favored races"?

Dave, if you actually knew how to read, rather than copy and paste, you would actually realize that the "favored races" in "On the Origin of Species," you would realize that the "favored races" are those of pigeons, finches, snails, dogs and pigs. The idea that talking about birds and domesticated animals is "racist" betrays the fact that you're just a hate-filled moron.

Suffer the little children! Humperdumperdoo!

Dave.

Are you an idiot? Do you comprehend the absurdity of telling the people here that we're going to hell unless we repent? Quoting the bible to us is like reading from a bad fantasy novel.

It won't move us any more than a sermon by Ted Haggard or the Dodo Dobson.

Don't be absurd.

Furthermore, doesn't the Bible say it's blasphemy for a mere mortal, Christian, or otherwise, to determine whether or not God sends another person to Hell for all eternity simply because that other person does not think as the first does?

On racism: There are only two races: Male and Female. (IT'S A JOKE!

But according to Hitler, Darwin was inspirational, and useful propaganda, as he was for Jim Crow.

Onward to Rome...

Furthermore, doesn't the Bible say it's blasphemy for a mere mortal, Christian, or otherwise, to determine whether or not God sends another person to Hell for all eternity simply because that other person does not think as the first does?

Dear Stanton, it is a serious matter to judge a man worthy of hell. None of us should think we ever could send another to hell by our own word. We cannot at all do so. We can influence others to remain unrepentant and unbelieving, (Matthew Ch. 23) and there by merit some responsibility for their destiny. That is a sobering thing to contemplate. But to believe God and his word is to believe not only John 3:16, but also John 3:17 and 3:18. That is God's authority, and it is the standard by which all will pass or fail.

Eugenics has nothing to do with Darwin you troll.

HItler was a christian as were almost all the white southern men who wrote the Jim Crow laws. Racism has nothing to do with Darwin. Slavery existed BEFORE Darwin.

You're an idiot.

The work of creationists is of a high standard.

The perhaps most important element in comedy is to be able to make the most outrageous and bizarre statements while keeping a straight face. Dave clearly masters this art unto perfection.

"IT'S A JOKE!"

But it's not funny.

Oh, and about Darwin. We commend him for his contributions to the understanding of our world, we also recognize that he was wrong with a number of things he said (particularly with living before the devising of genetics). We do not worship him. His theory has been built upon by numerous scientists over the years, and has only gotten more robust. Please stop projecting your absurdly simplistic and primitive way of relating to the world onto us.

"Those who dismiss God dismiss the image they are created in, and sink to lesser images."

Sorry, I think us humans are cool enough without having to tie our image to some invisible superman that somebody made up.

But according to Hitler, Darwin was inspirational, and useful propaganda, as he was for Jim Crow.

Onward to Rome...

Ignoring your obvious misunderstanding of historical context, you can't blame an idea for how it is misused. It doesn't change the validity of the theory if some jackass uses it for evil. If that's the case I blame the character Jesus for "God Hates Fags".

Again Dave pulls out the apologist's circular thinking:

To have faith in God, you need to know He exists. We know He exists because the Bible says so. To understand the Bible, you must read it with an mind to understand. To have a mind to understand, you need to have faith in God. To have faith in God....

If God truly wants us all to be saved, then why is it that skeptics are unmoved by Biblical quotes? How come you have to be 'in the right mindset' prior to reading it to understand. (And if you 'were in the right mindset' before reading the sutras, how is it you wouldn't become a Buddhist automatically?)

But please do go on about how we don't know how to 'think' when confronted by Bible passages.

Dear Stanton, it is a serious matter to judge a man worthy of hell. None of us should think we ever could send another to hell by our own word.

Isn't that what you're doing now, what with all of your "repent for your sins of believing in evilution or burn forever in Hell" rantings and Bible spammings?
I mean, honestly, how exactly does "GOD SAID SO" explain how life became so diverse? How does threatening us with hellfire and making absurdly false accusations do a better job of understanding life as we know it?

Furthermore, Dave, do realize that warning us that, if we do not abandon evolutionary biology and assume the same illogic you have embraced, God will cast us into Hell to burn for all eternity, is, by legal and technical definitions, a threat. And the Bible does say that threaten people to change their spirituality, whether by force and or rhetoric, in order to conform to your own spirituality, is blasphemy. You said so, yourself, in fact.
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Do also realize that lying to people in order to convert them is also considered to be blasphemy. You continue to accuse Darwin of racism, and yet, you have not bothered to explain why, if Hitler was inspired by Darwin, all of Hitler's antisemitic speeches read as though they were plagiarized from Martin Luther's infamous "Of the Jews and Their Lies." Unless, of course, you happen to have a detailed explanation of how Darwin traveled back in time to convince Martin Luther to become an antisemitic exactly like how he did to Hitler.
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Do also realize that, at least since the days of Saint Augustine of Hippo, it is technically blasphemous to use the Bible inappropriately. Given as how Evolutionary Biology is a science, and not a religion or even a belief system, coercing us to abandon Evolutionary Biology in favor of a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible in order to explain the diversity of Life as we know it now, and then, is also blasphemy, especially since you have not told us what the Bible says about placoderms, trilobites or brontotheres.

Don't shoot the messenger Stanton. I didn't write the Bible, I merely believe it and seek to obey the God of it. Ten minutes after you, and may God forbid this, after you enter the gates of hell you might remember this attempt to communicate the message to you. Not even God will help you then. In all humility, please, investigate the Bible claims apart from the rhetoric of the atheists.
Dear Stanton, it is a serious matter to judge a man worthy of hell. None of us should think we ever could send another to hell by our own word. We cannot at all do so. We can influence others to remain unrepentant and unbelieving, (Matthew Ch. 23) and there by merit some responsibility for their destiny. That is a sobering thing to contemplate. But to believe God and his word is to believe not only John 3:16, but also John 3:17 and 3:18. That is God's authority, and it is the standard by which all will pass or fail.

Ignoring your obvious misunderstanding of historical context, you can't blame an idea for how it is misused. It doesn't change the validity of the theory if some jackass uses it for evil. If that's the case I blame the character Jesus for "God Hates Fags".

Rev. BigDumbChimp, No one blames ideas, they blame the misusers. Christ and the gospel have been misused in some truly ugly ways by truly evil men. But Christ is not accountable, nor His Doctrines evil. But what men and women have promulgated against faith in God, using Darwin and his legacy as a vehicle for their atheism very clearly puts them in opposition to God. Those who are led astray by them are less blamable.

The real issue is clear: Is God real or not? If not, no winners emerge. If so....

So, please tell us how telling me that I'm going to be sent to Hell for all eternity in 10 minutes because I prefer not to espouse nonsense in my relationship with God a sign of God's enduring love.
If you really think you're the messenger of God, please address the specific points I raised. Otherwise, do remember what God said, in the Bible, about the fate those people who arrogantly claim to speak for God without God's specific permission to do so.
Please tell me how hanging the threat of eternal hellfire over our collective heads a sign of "Christian love"?

Please tell me why you think a literal reading of the Bible is the best explanation for the diversity of life as we currently know it, and please tell me exactly where in the Bible it says so.

Also, Dave, why I should embrace God because I'm afraid of hellfire, rather than because I love God and my fellow man?
Doesn't the Bible say that "Love casteth out fear," and that "God is love"? But, wouldn't all of that cancel out and become worthless if the only reason I embrace God is because you've threatened me with eternal hellfire?

BTW, Dave, what with your preaching and threats of brimstone, you never did explain to us how a literal interpretation of the Bible explains the diversity of life better than "descent with modification."
Would it be at all possible if you could explain to us how this is so without mentioning the threat of eternal hellfire, or do you espouse Martin Luther's idea that "Reason is the whore of Satan"?

So, please tell us how telling me that I'm going to be sent to Hell for all eternity in 10 minutes because I prefer not to espouse nonsense in my relationship with God a sign of God's enduring love.
If you really think you're the messenger of God, please address the specific points I raised. Otherwise, do remember what God said, in the Bible, about the fate those people who arrogantly claim to speak for God without God's specific permission to do so.
Please tell me how hanging the threat of eternal hellfire over our collective heads a sign of "Christian love"?

It seems strange for you to warn me according to what you say God has promised the arrogant.

If (or since) God must send the noncompliant to hell, is it not love for Him to show the way to comply? To write the Bible? To send the messenger?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent...

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Please tell me why you think a literal reading of the Bible is the best explanation for the diversity of life as we currently know it, and please tell me exactly where in the Bible it says so.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:11 to Genesis 1:31

To me it is not a question of it being the best explanation, it is a question of being the only possibility. My own intelligence and recreativity have no suitable explanation as the product of mindless unguided activity. Even the word activity has ACT as its root. Nothing acts without explanation, reason, cause, even if I have no knowledge of why or how. The atoms of rocks act in a very organized predictable manner... WHY? ID and God as the IDer.

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Also, Dave, why I should embrace God because I'm afraid of hellfire, rather than because I love God and my fellow man?
Doesn't the Bible say that "Love casteth out fear," and that "God is love"? But, wouldn't all of that cancel out and become worthless if the only reason I embrace God is because you've threatened me with eternal hellfire?

Fear is the beginning, and will lead to choices. Fear will divide along two lines. Those who wish their own way will retreat from God, and all ideas of God. Those who understand that man is not able to sustain himself according to his ways will seek a Truth that will sustain them, and some will find Christ is that Truth.

Think of the history of man, it is not a shining success story. Now we have 6 billion and the relativist would have us believe that 6 billion POV's are better than one Truth. We will see a quick knee jerk reaction against this notion, but it will not be a saving reaction.

God is a very much better Father than any human Father. He deeply desires that His chastening move us quickly to fear and draw near to Him, that He may instruct us inwardly in all His Love.

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BTW, Dave, what with your preaching and threats of brimstone, you never did explain to us how a literal interpretation of the Bible explains the diversity of life better than "descent with modification."
Would it be at all possible if you could explain to us how this is so without mentioning the threat of eternal hellfire, or do you espouse Martin Luther's idea that "Reason is the whore of Satan"?

The "threats" are not my threats, they are God's PROMISES. I am a messenger. We really do want you to believe and to be with us in heaven. God loves you so much He made you from seed and egg, descended from Adam. You are human, yes? Thank God you represent as "Stanton" and not BigDumbChimp (I beg you to keep "Stanton"...).

Reason without respect of virtue is a dangerous thing. The genetics sciences are callously moving the boundaries of human endeavor further and further into what is intended only to be marketable. Will we make men live forever? Without the burden of the sick, the deformed, the old, the ugly and the unintelligent? If so, without faith, they will be morally and emotionally miserable in their false salvation.

Men's and women's souls were created as loved ones for God to live with, not to remain isolated from the only source of goodness, and not to be consorts of the demonic and satanic.

God does in fact say to us:
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
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I have no problem with descent and micro-modification.

But let me ask you this: If the earth is billions of years old, why does it still have a molten core?

Rev. BigDumbChimp, No one blames ideas, they blame the misusers. Christ and the gospel have been misused in some truly ugly ways by truly evil men. But Christ is not accountable, nor His Doctrines evil. But what men and women have promulgated against faith in God, using Darwin and his legacy as a vehicle for their atheism very clearly puts them in opposition to God. Those who are led astray by them are less blamable.

You blame Darwin and evolution. Yes some distorted aspects of Darwinian theory have been misused but that doesn't change the validity of the science. Period. Whether someone comes to a position of Atheism because of scientific reasons after studying modern biology and evolution or not that has zero bearing on the theory. The theory is what it is regardless of what other views people who accept it hold. You conflate the two as if they are part and parcel yet the theory of Evolution says absolutely bupkis about god. The position of Atheism says absolutely bupkis about evolution. Your argument holds little water.

I realize I shouldn't bother, but there's some real gems in Dave's most recent.

First, has anyone figured out if this is the same Dave who was calling us all "ignorant about religion" last week? (You remember: the one who jumped on PZ for quipping that he couldn't tell the difference between Southern Baptists and Shia Muslims?) Name's the same, but the style and details of belief seem different.

Be that as it may, if this was t.o, I would nominate this Dave-ism for Chez Watt in the "You could have fooled me" category:
My own intelligence and recreativity have no suitable explanation as the product of mindless unguided activity.

More random gems of, um, wisdom:

The "threats" are not my threats, they are God's PROMISES.

Lessee: "God threatens to send me to eternal torment unless I kowtow to him" vs. "God PROMISES to send me to eternal torment unless I kowtow to him". Gosh you're right: the second one sounds sooo much better. Not.

God is a very much better Father than any human Father. He deeply desires that His chastening move us quickly to fear and draw near to Him, that He may instruct us inwardly in all His Love.

God "chastens" us so that we will "fear" him -- but that's supposed to make us "draw near" so he can teach us about his love? Sane and healthy people move away from that which they fear. Yes, parents sometimes have to discipline their children, but this goes beyond that -- sounds like the classic abuser/victim scenario to me.

But let me ask you this: If the earth is billions of years old, why does it still have a molten core?

Resisting the temptation to say "Same reason there are still PYGMIES + DWARVES" and leave it at that: radioactivity. Look it up.

You still have yet to explain to me why being forced to read the Bible literally under pain of eternal hellfire is the better explanation for the diversity of life as we know it as opposed to "descent with modification."
And please tell me what sort of unholy, baby-eating evil results from "reason without virtue" when applied to reconstructing prehistoric organisms, especially when there no evidence of humans interacting with the vast majority of prehistoric organisms.

Resisting the temptation to say "Same reason there are still PYGMIES + DWARVES" and leave it at that: radioactivity. Look it up.

Dave can't because he's afraid that he'll get smarter, and as a result, be condemned to eternal hellfire.

Sermon on the Mount! Humperdido!

This isn't the same David. The other David would never stoop so low as to actually quote bible verses, his theology is far too refined to actually state.

Rev. BigDumbChimp : The legacy of Darwin I refere to is not evolution, it is you and your cohorts.

Eamon Knight : Are you saying radioactivity is the cause for the molten core?

Stanton : No one is forcing you to read the Bible. I will stop quoting it, if you may think yourselves forced by me to read it.

Stanton : The study of Darwin's theories would not likely be direct cause of baby eating evil. Yet... Where there is no God, all things are permitted.

You continue to evade the question, Dave.
Can you tell me how reading the Bible literally would help me understand the diversity of life? You said so yourself that this is the only way to understand the biological world. Would it be too much to ask for if you can quote the specific passage or passages that explains why there is no evidence of the brontothere Brontotherium interacting with the rhinoceri Diceratotherium or Menodus, or the Columbian, Jefferson's, and Imperial mammoths, even though remains of all the aforementioned animals have been found in North America? Certainly, as a Messenger of God, this would be a trivial request to ask of you. After all, when the Virgin Mary asked for proof that what the angel told her about bearing the son of God was true, didn't God oblige her by breathing life back into the fish she was eating and have it flop back to sea?
Furthermore, if you actually knew how to read, rather than copy and paste Bible passages that allow you to intimidate us, you would realize that Darwin's legacy is indeed Evolutionary Biology. His legacy also includes the reorganization and clarification of the phylogeny of barnacles, and that earthworms move a tremendous amount of soil in their lifetimes, due to Darwin's observations of Stonehenge sinking a few inches.
And yes, radioactivity helps keep the earth's core hot, as there are both radioactive elements, such as uranium, thorium, radium and polonium, as well as radioactive isotopes. A side effect of being exposed to massive amounts of radioactivity is massive amounts of heat. That's how rods of refined uranium heat water in nuclear reactors. You would know this if you knew about nuclear physics.
Also, please be more specific when you say "Where there is no God, all things are permitted." Not all of the "Darwinists" I know personally are atheists, and none of the atheists I personally know have ever expressed desires to commit crimes because of their non-recognition of God. I have studied biology and prehistoric animals for almost 2 decades and have yet to express an interest to deny God as a result. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong, then?

The Bible is not a text book of biology. But it does identify the creator of what man calls biological life. As for explanations you might explain to me what all those sea fossils are doing on the tops of mountains.

After all, when the Virgin Mary asked for proof that what the angel told her about bearing the son of God was true, didn't God oblige her by breathing life back into the fish she was eating and have it flop back to sea?

Is that some story you have been told or that you made up? There was no fish present at the time she was informed of her special child.

My hope is not to intimidated you, it is to scare HELL out of you and bring you to God for the mercy and grace of Jesus which will save you.

I have to think that radiation in the earths core would mean volcanic eruptions would really stink up our air with radioactivity, and that lava would be quite radioactive. Why have I never heard this said? And since raw radioactive elements are always very slowly losing energy, would this not still be a cause to look for global cooling? Has any one estimated the energy that the earth releases daily from within after so many many years of cooling?

There are even Darwinists in seminaries. If you have no desire to deny God, count your self blest.