How do the Irish keep track of them all? They have more than two political parties, and yet they only have two middle fingers to raise up and wave at them. All I can say, though, is that if I were living in Northern Ireland, I wouldn't be voting for the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), which narrows the field a little. Look at the tripe they're pushing on the schools now:
A DUP proposal that Lisburn Council should write to local secondary and grammar schools encouraging them to teach alternative theories to evolution is set to face stiff opposition when it is debated next week.
That sure sounds familiar: "alternative theories" is one of the mantras of the Discovery Institute, which then conveniently neglects to mention that none of the lies they're peddling rises to the level of legitimacy of a theory. The DUP has an up-and-coming young wanker named Paul Givan to babble yet more familiar old nonsense.
The Corporate Services Committee agreed to a proposal by the DUP's Paul Givan that they should contact all second level schools in the Lisburn City Council area "encouraging them to teach alternative theories to evolution as the origins of the earth, such as Creation and Intelligent Design."
Mr Givan said: "I have never believed in the theory of evolution and, like many people, believe in the teaching of creation. I believe science points to creation but our schools are teaching a very narrow remit and many exclude alternative theories to evolution. I have asked the Council to write to local schools encouraging them to give equality of treatment to other theories of the origins of life and how the earth came into existence."
Mr Givan believes science points to creation, yet his qualifications list only his degrees in Business Studies and, of course, his hobby of lying to children at a Sunday School. Perhaps that's where he learned all of his science?
While the Irish newspapers might poke fun at our creationist idiots (deservedly, too), at least now we can poke back at Ireland's own creationism problem, with representation in Northern Ireland's largest political party.
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Unfortunately, creationism seems to be a global ill. I can't think of one country that doesn't at least have some level of anti-science advocacy. Some people simply value dogma over truth, and personal convenience over benefit to all.
Off Topic:
A pot Good News poem for you Dr. Myers
Autumn Leaf's Laughter
Oh please do tell of your secret
you majestic autumn leaves,
Gloriously crowning the landscapes of trees,
Do you dare go out in a rush of beauty
while you are slowly dieing ?
Pay ye no heed to all the other s
so solemnly attended with tears and crying ?
or does the essence in you somehow yearn
jealously for a glorious life to come ?
and you somehow know that
shouldn't be sad but fun,
For i truly wish i could die like you
and that i knew the secret of your story,
so that my countenance should light up and glow
as my soul is delivered to behold God's glory,
so please autumn leaves which mock
with such defiant belly laughter,
do tell us your secret over
so that we may properly enter the hereafter.
sorry Dr. Myers my computer baby sitter omitted de^ath
so read this in proper place, other de^aths, mock de^ath, and secret over de^ath,
Psst... Northern Ireland and Ireland are not the same country.
Small piece of pedantry - "Ireland" normally refers to the Republic of Ireland; the DUP is a party in Northern Ireland. And they don't just feature "up and coming young wankers", but old and dessicated wankers such as Ian Paisley .
They have more than two political parties, and yet they only have two middle fingers to raise up and wave at them.
Imagine having 20-plus parties, and they all suck.
I don't understand this "teaching creationism" stuff... what exactly is there to "teach" in a class about creationism? Whether it's true or not, I'd love to sit in on one of those classes and see what goes on, I mean can't the whole idea be summed up with: "God created everything." ?? Must be the easiest class to get an A in...
Hey, at least the newspaper article was well done. But perhaps he should point his next one a bit closer to home.
You might be interested to know that Doctor (purchased doctorate) and Reverend (self-appointed) Ian Paisley is the leading figure of the DUP. He is/was a personal friend of Bob Jones so no big surprise in the DUP supporting creationist nonsense.
I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles and the man with the most blood on his hands is the Reverand Ian Paisley. He was there at every stage from the early 60s onwards, throwing sparks into the powder until the keg blew up in 1969.
From then on, he was there at every opportunity for peace, stirring the pot, making sure that agreements would not and could not be met, preaching hate, injecting fear into the protestant community of what the 'papists' would do if they got any power.
He is one bad bastard. I almost wish there was a hell just to see his face staring up from it. He robbed me of a peaceful childhood. I hold him responsible for the hate crimes inflicted on myself and my catholic friends, including the burning-out of my catholic neighbours and the fatal shooting of my schoolfriend in 73. He is almost single-handedly responsible for my rejection of Christianity. My well of hatred runs deep for this man and all his party stands for.
Teaching lies to schoolchildren is heinous, but par for the course for this loathesome party.
Please don't let anyone go away with the impression that the DUP is representative of Irish thinking, which on the whole is reasonably intelligent and enlightened.
My rule of thumb is that anyone who starts their own church or their own political party is a raving egomaniac.
Which includes the Rev. Ian Paisley twice over.
Even smaller piece of pedantry - we're all the same country when it comes to Rugby. PZ, *there* is a sport that cephalopods would truly enjoy! (Too bad about the France game tonight)
Anyone in Lisburn, please email/mail your councillors with a copy of the Kitzmiller ruling; there are enough sensible people on council to make sure this silly motion is defeated. Yes, even in NI.
I don't see the rugby-cephalopod connection, though. Burly fellows with broken noses who can drink amazing quantities of beer - 8-10 armed invertebrates with delicate constitutions?
I used to watch a bit of rugby when I lived in Seattle. It's more violent than hockey, even.
Zeph, I think there's more to teaching Creationism than simply teaching Creation. Think of all the effort that must go into the unteaching of geology, astronomy, physics and oh yeah BIOLOGY. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it. Praise Jesus.
umm, PZ... if you look at all closely at the DUP you'll soon discover that their support for creationism is the least of their fucking problems. Seriously...
And may I be the first, Dr. Myers, to congratulate you for finding what may be the only legitimate and appropriate context in which to use the "MS Comic Sans" font. That, alone, deserves a Pulitzer or something...
There's the evil troll Ian "The Butcher" Paisley grinning in the center of those DUP fools. Poor Ulster.
[awakens as if from a dream in which she was sunken in molasses]
Uh... Is MS Comis Sans now doing the work of the Mr. Gumby background?
Robbie Coltrane (you know...Hagrid) used to do a great Ian Paisley character called Mason Boyne. Couldn't find any on youtube, but the best quote (talking ot his wife): "Did you know, Morag, that if you spell 'Pope' backwards you get 'Epop,' which is a four letter word beginning with 'E' like 'Evil'? You see, it's all there in the Bible if you just shoogle the letters around a bit."
Yes, there are way to many political parties in "Norn Iron". A could rule of thumb is that the more letter U's in the name, the worse of a shower of wankers they are. Think of the Monty Python sketch with all the different Judea Liberation Parties.
As for Ian Paisley, he is Northern Ireland's High Priest of Hatred and the single individual most responsible for forty years of hatred and bloodshed. May he die roaring, as the old curse goes.
I sent the following comment to the Ulster Star...
Paul Givan's statements concerning the teaching of creation and intellient design alongside that of the scientific theory of evolution through natural selection reveal him to be ignorant at best and an idiot at worst. Ireland will always be a backwater as long as the deluded pious pinheads (of all stripes) are allowed to go unchallenged by people of reason and intelligence. He may pollute the minds of children in the sunday schools he teaches but he has no business suggesting institutes of real education must do the same.
Didn't Paisley recently get booted out of his own church (or maybe DUP) for not maintaining the appropriate levels of hatred?
Mason Boyne - that's a hilarious name if you think about it...
And yeah, the to paraphrase the Nicean Creed a bit, the DUP were, are, and ever shall be feckin' eejits.
No More Mr. Nice Guy wrote: (Paisley) single individual most responsible for forty years of hatred and bloodshed.
Whilst that nice Mr Adams and Mr McGuiness were just paragons of virtue right?
MAJeff, that's right - although he 'retired' before he was pushed. Just like his doctor will be advising him in about eight or nine months' time that perhaps he should stand down from his seat in the NI Assembly and take up the inevitable seat in the House of Lords beside his wife. That's his wife who once ran for the old Stormont parliament on a platform of not being a heathen Jew, which seems to go curiously underreported.
And he didn't even have the decency to pay cash for his DD; it was a gift from Bob Jones himself.
The first thing that I thought of was this off color joke, hopefully it will be tasteful enough for this blog;
A man walks in a bar and a little man is sitting next to him. The little man asked if he had a family and how old he was. The man told him he was 29 and had a wife and two kids.
The little man says "I'm a Leprechaun, and if you left me F#$@ you in the butt I will grant you three wishes".
They go to the bathroom and the Leprechaun starts to F@$# him in the butt.
When almost finished the Leprechaun says, "You did say you had a family right?"
Than man replies, "Yes I'm 29 and have a wife and two kids"
The Leprechaun says, "Well aren't you a little bit old to be believing in Leprechauns?"
;)
Tom @9 and NMNG @19,
Paisley is a right bastard, no question. But, sorry, though he has stoked the flames of hatred better than most, SFAIK any blood on his hands is rhetorical. The same can't be said for the loyalist terrorists, who (as you know, or should know) generally despise Paisley. And the same certainly can't be said for the IRA, who (according to the Sutton survey, available on the CAIN website) are, by a very wide margin, responsible for more killings in NI than any other group.
I'm much happier when thinking about what Amenhotep wrote @11 (damn the bit of good it did us tonight, though).
PZ, sorry all this is getting dragged onto to your site. Had you consulted me in advance, I could have warned you that you'd instantly transform Pharyngula into an Irish usenet group from the early 1990s! You're right on the narrow issue, though, and all thinking people in Lisburn should do as A. suggests. But Willo @4 is right. I detest creationism as I detest Sinn Féin; I wish neither existed but, as long as they do, I am happier that they should be primarily British rather than Irish problems. (I wish no ill on my brothers and sisters in the wee north but really, can you blame me?)
Here's a newsflash for you, Mr. Givan: evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life or especially with how the Earth came into existence.
I submit that his proposal disqualifies itself on those grounds.
Mr. Givan, I believe that things fall because God is continually pushing down on them. May we add to your proposal that we would also like to see alternatives taught to the theory of gravity?
Science can't fully explain what causes magnetic fields, and their explanations for electricity are inadequate. I would therefore also like to add a request that alternatives to the theory of electromagnetism be taught.
In response to Mrs Tilton @26. Yes, agreed, lets not turn this into the Irish forum. Scienceblogs server probably couldn't cope.
I did indeed mean that the blood on Paisley's hands is rhetorical but that doesn't excuse him of the very real effect he had. I would go as far as to suggest that the troubles might not even have happened if Paisley hadn't been around.
Paisley wouldn't be stupid or brave enough to pull the trigger himself. Much easier to inflame everybody and goad the terrorists into doing his work for him. I remember the Vanguard movement; I was actually there in Bangor's Castle park listening to him inflaming the crowd of thugs to form a paramilitary organisation, along with his evil buddies William Craig and the mentally ill Ronald Bunting.
Paisley KNOWS what he has done. It makes me sick to my core to see the evil old bastard putting on his kindly avuncular elder statement act now. Anyone who grew up in Ulster in the 60s onwards knows just what a die-hard bigot he was and how much he inflamed the situation.
"I have asked the Council to write to local schools encouraging them to give equality of treatment to other theories of the origins of life and how the earth came into existence."
As soon as you hear someone equating evolution with the origins of life and the Earth, it's time to point and laugh them out of town. Sometimes ridicule is the only sensible response.
"HOOT! HOOT! HOOT!"
Well it looks like the DUP have been joined in an unholy holy alliance by another group touting intelligent design in Ireland - the catholic church.
http://www.studiesirishreview.ie/j/page540
And if that wasn't bad enough the editoral for that publication makes the comforting claim that secularization of society is somewhat worse than living under the Taliban.
"Strident secularism limits us. It is more totalitarian than any religious fundamentalism and ignores the fact that modern civilisation is founded upon religious beliefs. Such secularism, which is usually promoted by men rather than women, leaves little or no room for creativity and is unhappy about chance, because it favours the programming of everything and everybody"
Tom @29,
your view is eminently sensible. Paisley might never have killed anybody himself, but I hate the old bastard immensely even so. I hate Adams the same way; possibly even more so, because (a) I'm not sure he is as technically innocent as Paisley and (b) unlike Paisley, he and his comrades usurp my country's flag and the name of its army. Piss on the details, though; fuck the lot of them. (Sorry for the swearing, PZ!) But then I have the luxury of being able to say that. People in the north -- all of them -- have had to make a lot of distasteful decisions. If their enjoying a semblance of peace at long last comes at the cost of Paisley and his opposite number McGuinness drawing state salaries rather than dying in prison as they deserve, then so be it.
And meanwhile, all of you in Lisburn, be you jaffer, taig, Hindu or atheist, if you have a head on you, do what Amenhotep suggests!
Considering the Troubles and what it wrought, isn't this an "advance". Sure, they want to teach children a bunch of bullshit, but at least they aren't shooting or blowing them up.
It's a start, I guess.
To give a bit of context to this, the DUP is closely associated with the Free Presbyterian Church, a fundamentalist denomination; among other things, Ian Paisley, founder and head of the DUP, also founded and still heads the Free Presbyterian Church (at least until the end of the year, when he's stepping down). In US terms it would be like George W Bush also leading the Southern Baptist convention. Thus it's no surprise that the DUP is agitating around creationism.
Also of note: Paisley used to spend a lot of time fulminating against the Pope and the IRA, but he now shares the leadership of Northern Ireland's regional government with a former IRA commander and devout Roman Catholic--thus proving that even if God doesn't exist he does have a sense of humor.
Oops, shame on me for posting from an out of date page. I see the other commenters have already dealt adequately with Ian Paisley and friends.
Martin @31,
jeez, you're right, that's bad! Though I'm not sure we can make the RCC Paisley's ally on the basis of an article by one Jesuit priest. Still: say what you will about the Jesuits, as a group they are not known for intellectual incompetence. That article has to make a lot of the reverend fathers wince, then.
Paisley KNOWS what he has done. It makes me sick to my core to see the evil old bastard putting on his kindly avuncular elder statement act now. Anyone who grew up in Ulster in the 60s onwards knows just what a die-hard bigot he was and how much he inflamed the situation.
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjneal/goering.jpg
When I was a kid, I used to wonder which "side" to be on, as a Prod in the south. Took me years to realize the whole place should be walled off and allowed to suffocate in its own stupidity and hatred. It's horrifically sad, but it just seems beyond repair as long as they're all going to attach their identity to some bullsh*t difference between interpretations of a probably-made-up book. Bullsh*t on top of bullsh*t. That said, I'm kind of surprised that they're trying to bring that kind of religiosity into schools in Ireland.
I wonder if it had been a result of a policy decision that we never talked about evolution in school. Never thought about that before. Dumb, eh?
And, yeah. Comic Sans is just perfect here. I'm sure the DUP would approve. It's probably mandated somewhere in their press release style guide.
I didn't think I could dislike Ian Paisley more than I already did. But finding out that he is close with the Bob Jones' allowed me to discover even new levels of loathing. This moves Paisley down to the same level of Hell reserved for Fred Phelps.
(from memory)
"Creationism doesn't explain anything; it unexplains everything."
-Isaac Asimov
yup.
another Asimov quote on the subject of creationism:
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them."
...and:
"Science can be introduced to children well or poorly. If poorly, children can be turned away from science; they can develop a lifelong antipathy; they will be in a far worse condition than if they had never been introduced to science at all."
such is what the "teach the controversy" folks have in mind for everyone.
I wonder if there really was no evidence for evolution, would these people feel the need to consider it a fact, maybe even manufacture some of their own "evidence"?
Arg, I just watched a George Carlin show from 1977 and I think that I'm channeling him, sorry...
It's worth a try though, eh?
Bob
The DUP was pushing this about 18 months ago. Here's DUP MP David Simpson:
Also:
All fair up to here...
PZ wrote: While the Irish newspapers might poke fun at our creationist idiots (deservedly, too), at least now we can poke back at Ireland's own creationism problem, with representation in Northern Ireland's largest political party.
They are different countries! The Independent Ireland is an paper of the Irish Republic; the DUP is a regional UK party of Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK - the clue is in the name of the country - look at the front of any British passport "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The Irish Republic is a different country - just like Mexico and the US are different countries.
Erm ... there is someone else who has considerably more blood on his hands than Paisley, evil old bastard that he nonetheless is ...
Martin MacGuiness, deputy leader of the IRA (oops, that should be Sinn Feinn ( - which translates to: "We ourselves" - which re-translates to "F*ck the rest of you")
Come on, the problem in Ireland, North AND South is RELIGION.
That was apparent to me the first times I went there, in 1966-7. First sight of Belfast from the boat: "Kick the Pope" across a whole set of dcokside steps...
Outside Inchicore railway works - a statue of the unmarried mother with her little bastard, Jesus .....
The island is now recovering rapidly from it's 500-year descent into religious madness, but it is unfair to blame ONLY Paisley for this state of affairs.
Nick Good: ZING!
Ian Paisley, Professional Bigot:
"He received an honorary degree from Bob Jones University of South Carolina in 1966 and is a regular preacher there. To this day, his actual ordination is the subject of controversy. It was never valid under Presbyterian rules. He obtained a B.A. in Divinity from Pioneer Theological Seminary in Rockville, Ill. in 1954 and an honorary doctorate 7 months later. He received a Masters Degree from Burton College and Seminary in Manitou Springs, Colorado. Both are bogus, disreputable correspondence schools described as "degree mills" by the US Dept. of Education."
'Nuff said.
Northern Ireland's troubles were...and are... exacerbated by sectarian education. Separate Catholic and Protestant schooling, both of which are state funded.
This argument over introducing religion into science classes, is largely a result of this.
The UK Labour government is encouraging more of the same throughought the UK, where state funded denominational, or sectarian schools are common. I have an ex girlfriend in the South of England who attends church, she's an atheist, but it's all about getting her kids into a school which selects on sectarian criteria. I find this grotesque.
It's only going to get worse - there are 150 state funded Islamic schools in the pipeline.
Sadly the political opposition - the Tory party, endorse the Labour government's sectarian approach to education.
We should point out that "Doctor" Pairley received his doctorate from the Bob Jones University of Southern California.
Need anything more be said?
It cracks me up to think of the DUP site reeling from a surge in hits originating from here.
I grew up in NI and moved back there a few years ago. There's a heck of a lot of problems, and I can hardly believe I live in a place with this crew as the main party. The power sharing executive at least means that different views are represented in ministerial positions. (Sorry for the dull stuff.)
I reckon this Given guy is writing his letters, not because he thinks the teaching of creationism will ever happen, but to show the old'uns that he's properly hard core. He'll get noticed and promoted then.
Maybe someone has already posted this youtube link about indoctrinating a child to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_M37EWQGCA
Flying Spaghetti Monster Sunday School.
"not because he thinks the teaching of creationism will ever happen"
Its already happening in Northern Ireland. There was a debate on Ulster radio a while back that I have as a recorded podcast. It included quite a mix of opinions (they even invited Richard Dawkins and that mad creationist thermodynamics lecturer from Leeds University). They had an outside interview as background featuring a local christian fundamentalist school where the poor kids were being taught straightforward book of genesis creationism. I'm afraid it didn't give a good impression of the local NI population - apart from Dawkins the second most pro-science person on the panel was a catholic priest!
Some of the discussions on William Crawley's BBC blog are good in this vein: http://bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni
Don't go if you have a blood pressure problem.
Well, PZ, if you're befuddled at the amount of political parties in the North, check out how many are in the Republic!
Fianna Fáil
Fine Gael
Labour
Sinn Féin
Green Party
Progressive Democrats
Socialist Party
Worker's Party
Christian Democrats
A bit off-topic, but this was the logo of the first TV station in Ulster.
http://www.meldrum.co.uk/mhp/resources/ulster_bw.ra
Trust me, Uslter's ident didn't get much better after this one. Less scary, maybe, but not better.
I heard that BBC programme mentioned by MartinC in #55 with the jaw-dropping example of creationism in the classroom. I grew up in Northern Ireland but, having had a Catholic education, had no idea that this passes for a science education in some Protestant schools. It does explain a few things about the DUP mindset, though. The ability to defend against reality is a useful skill and worth learning at an early age.
I've transcribed the relevant bit below in all its painful, mind-abusing glory. GCSE's are exams aimed at 15/16 year olds.
--------------------------
Newtonabbey Independent Christian School, Free Presbyterian Church.
Teacher: The sun's energy allows plants to live and to grow, but the sun is only a channel for light and life on earth. Now how do we know from reading our bibles that the sun is only a channel?
Pupil: Because the lord said 'I am the light of the world'?
Teacher: Yes, the lord is the light of the world, he is the source of life. Any other reasons? - Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: The sun was created on the fourth day after there was light.
Teacher: Yes, god created light before he created the sun because god is light and in him is no darkness at all.
BBC: Lois McClung is the school principal. Today she is teaching a GCSE class about eco systems. She is following the syllabus set by the Council for the Curriculum, Examination and Assessment (CCEA) but her lessons have an added extra.
Teacher: [There] are producers, that's the plants, who produce food from the sun, and there are other animals: the consumers, decomposers and man. Now the evolutionists would put man in as a consumer but we put him separately for man is different from the animals. God has made man special. How do we know that man is special, a special creation? Andrew?
Andrew: God gave man dominion over the creatures.
BBC: Children here are being taught that the bible is the pre-eminent authority on science and that the theory of evolution is wrong.
Teacher: The earth is approximately 6,000 years old, according to the records of scripture.
BBC: So you wouldn't see the earth as being billions of years old as some scientists do?
Teacher: We start with the premise that god's word is true and god has created the earth in 6 days and all very good. And we can look at scientific evidence and use creation to explain what we see.
BBC: The official syllabus for GCSE and A-levels don't take account of the creationist view. That syllabus has been set and those exam papers set according to a very different view, a scientific view. How do your pupils cope when they go into an exam?
Teacher: Well, we encourage our children when they are presented with a question in the examination about evolution that they can answer the question and say 'Evolutionists say...' or 'Scientists think...' '..But we as creationists believe...' and write down what they believe.
-----------------------------
The school doesn't have to work too hard to add this nonsense to their lessons - 'loophole' doesn't do justice to the wording of the official CCEA science curriculum:
Nonplussed @59,
in fairness, not all NI prods are Free Ps. (Note to American readers: the Free Presbyterian Church, which is neither very free nor very presbyterian, is something Ian Paisley invented all by himself. It is both deeply fundamentalist and highly politicised. So, of course, Americans should have no difficulty understanding it! In fact, I believe the FPC even has a few congregations in the USA.) And not all schools are run this way; as a general matter, NI actually has fairly decent educational standards. Now, if only the churches could be got out of the education business altogether...
You get a nomination for the Order of the Molly. (Provided you aren't /dev/null. In that case the inanimate carbon rod gets the vote.)
Bad translation. Try "vote or no vote".
I just sent the below to one of Lisburn's councillors:
Dear Mr Ewing
I write to you as a former resident of Old Warren, now living in North Belfast. My mother continues to reside in Old Warren.
With reference to your fellow DUP colleague Paul Givan's call to the Corporate Services Committee for Lisburn's secondary schools to teach creationism and Intelligent Design as alternatives to the theory of evolution, I hope that you will vote against his proposal in Tuesday evening's monthly meeting.
I have no objection to either creationism or ID being taught in schools as part of RE or Philosophy classes. But niether creationism or ID are scientific theories, and therefore have no place in the science class.
Would Mr Givan like to see evolution taught in Sunday Schools? Where does he draw the line as to what "theories" should be taught in the science classroom? The Hindu myth of the Earth resting on a turtle's back is my personal favourite. There is just as much evidence for the Hindu myth as there is for the Judeao-Christian creatioin story.
You don't have to take my word that ID is not a scientific theory - just read the senior American Judge John E. Jones III's devastating (for ID) ruling in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District_t….
Regards
Paul Mundy
Actually, before I became an atheist, I *did* teach evolution in Sunday School. Went down a treat with the kids. The reason for this was that the Presbyterian Church sent out a load of creationist balls for use as teaching materials one particular Sunday. I had a great time debunking it, but it does show that at least some in the Presbyterian hierarchy are happy to foist this crap on kids (along with all the other crap they foist on kids, of course).
In some ways, that's my only regret about leaving the church - it's like abandoning a sinking ship and leaving the kiddies on the deck. But perhaps it is easier to be an effective rescuer from the outside ;-)
[Hey, nonplussed, is that you from William Crawley's blog? Greetings!]
Hi PZ
Thanks for mentioning the current situation in Northern Ireland, we sure could use your help. The creationist have been recently bolstered by talks by the answers in genesis guru Monty White which seems to have emboldened the DUP. Traditionaly the education of children in separate Protestant and Catholic schools provide fertile grounds for the continuing growth of supersition.(The catholic maintained schools have recently banned Amnesty International groups from its schools because of its stance on abortion and the Protestant Fundamentalist churches go from strenght to strenght.)If you could keep an eye on things here it would be appreciated, Slugger O Toole is a fine site that sometimes raises these issues.
Ps beware the sectarian/historical minefield, as the old joke here goes, A guy was walking through Belfast when he was approached by two thugs and asked his religion, he replied "but I'm an atheist" they replied "yeah but are you a catholic atheist or a protestant atheist"
Mrs Tilton@60
It is true that this is not the case in all Protestant schools . I did say 'some' in my post, but perhaps 'a few' might have been even more precise. However, even if this example represents an extremist minority, acceptance of creationist thinking extends much wider than this in NI Protestantism.
One school being allowed to teach this fundament is scandal enough, but the significance is the strong link between this particular sect and the DUP, who are behind this latest assault.
We don't have to imagine what they're aiming for with their weasel requests for 'equal treatment'. We have a working example of their ideal, which isn't seeking to balance scientific theories with their own but to give science a lobotomy.
Amenhotep@63
Yup, that's me at the BBC blog, which I discovered from your link above.
A guy was walking through Belfast when he was approached by two thugs and asked his religion, he replied "but I'm an atheist" they replied "yeah but are you a catholic atheist or a protestant atheist"
Believe it or not, that pretty much happened to me in high school:
Q: "Are you Protestant or Catholic?"
A: "I'm an athiest. I don't believe in God."
Q2: "Oh, so you're Catholic then?"
I swear it happened.
The root cause of the Northern Ireland troubles is the ethnonationalist belief in the "manifest destiny" of a united Ireland despite it's rejection by the majority of the population of Northern Ireland who have no identification with it for no more sinister, or fundamentally different, reasons than that people in the Republic of Ireland reject a British identity. It's just another ethnonationalist conflict, like the Serbs who thought that Bosnia should be part of a "Greater Serbia" or the Basque conflict.
Of the three groups employing force in the troubles, Republicans, Loyalists and the British State, there was only one who if they stopped, the other two would automatically stop, namely Republicans. Hence they were the root cause. Specifically their wish to incorporate NI into an all-island state against the wishes of it's people. It was this point, rather like the Palestinians' recognition of *an* Israel (if not necessarily the current one in terms of borders) that was the crux of resolving the problem and bringing peace. That's exactly what happened, copper fastened by referenda, north, south and both simulataneously, saying that NI would never be forced into a united Ireland against it's consent. That was what had to be conceded for peace to come. It was for Republicans to concede.
David Simpson at it again!
As if people aren't laughing at Northern Ireland enough after Lisburn Council's letter to schools "making them aware" of teaching materials available concerning creationism and intelligent design, the DUP's David Simpson has yet again tabled several questions to the NI Assembly Minister for Education. These are set to be answered 21 November. Simpson also tabled a bunch of question in September, around the same time the Lisburn row was starting and only a few days after Answers in Genesis had their representative speaking in Lisburn.
There's a few links in my blog.
Cheers
Around about the time all this Lisburn madness was happening, a dude from Answers in Genesis spoke in Lisburn as part of "creation weekend"
He was called Paul Taylor and used to teach science in a public school for 17 years!! Yikes! Anyway his nonsense talk is here:
http://media10.sa-media.com:8000/sermons100/9220743540.wmv
I mention is on my blog http://swingindigs.blogspot.com/
Finally, after nearly 2 months, some schools in Lisburn have rejected the council call to develop creationist teaching materials!!!
http://swingindigs.blogspot.com/2007/11/school-tells-lisburn-creationis…
You get a nomination for the Order of the Molly. (Provided you aren't /dev/null. In that case the inanimate carbon rod gets the vote.)
Bad translation. Try "vote or no vote".
Ken Ham is boasting, with typical coyness, that he'll "be meeting with members of the Northern Ireland Assembly Government." http://www.answersingenesis.org/prayer/default.aspx#requests
Over at the British Centre for Science Education forum, we're wondering if anyone knows who these Members are and whether they're just members of the party, the Assembly or the Government. http://community.bcseweb.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=16872#16872
Mr.C., you seem a knowledgeable bloke but I can't access your links and there's no way to contact you. Any chance of an invite, please?
Brian
Of the three groups employing force in the troubles, Republicans, Loyalists and the British State, there was only one who if they stopped, the other two would automatically stop, namely Republicans. Hence they were the root cause. Specifically their wish to incorporate NI into an all-island state against the wishes of it's people. - Circ
I'd question the attribution of a "root cause" in a situation going back to Henry II of England's invasion of Ireland in the 12th century! More recently, there is no doubt that in 1919, when the first Irish Republic was declared, the majority of the population in Ireland as a whole (but only a minority in the north) supported full independence. The War of Independence, 1919-22, led to a precarious settlement in which the south became the "Irish Free State", which still had some restrictions on its independence (until 1949 when it became once again the Irish Republic), and the north remained a full part of the UK - but there was no particular justification for where the border was drawn, except that it was as much as the UK and the Protestant/Unionist part of the population felt they could hang on to. The revival of the IRA in the 1960s followed the peaceful Civil Rights movement, protesting against the systemic anti-Catholic discrimination and gerrymandering practiced by the Unionist government in the north; and the violent response to this movement. (The British Army, it is often forgotten, was initially welcomed in Catholic areas in 1969 as a protection from Protestant sectarian violence.) The ending of institutionalised discrimination was as vital to the eventual outbreak of peace as Sinn Fein's recognition that it could not bring about a united Ireland by force. Other important factors were probably common UK and Irish Republic membership of the EU, declining religiosity among both Catholics and Protestants, and the fact that the leaders of both the IRA and Loyalist armed groups leadership had moslty become middle-aged men with families - a large part of the solution to terrorism is not to kill the leaders, who will be replaced by younger men, but to wait for them to grow up a bit, then bribe them.