I should get myself a geiger counter

So have you noticed any super powers yet?

Cool. I wonder how my potassium supplements rate? If I ever see a Geiger counter, I must find out. I don't think I glow in the dark yet.

Oooh! A geek toy I don't have!

Damn the internets, for another nifty widget I don't need.

A geiger counter sounds like a cool toy, but they're expensive - $300 or $400 at Amazon. Damn.

I was going to note that smoke detectors and some camping lantern mantles are radioactive, but the article noted that already. I've read that granite is as well, so it would be fun to take one to the Capitol in D.C., or here in Texas the Texas Capitol is pink granite.

Two issues to bring up:

1. KCl is also used to stop the heart when carrying out lethal injection. That has only to do with its chemical properties, not its radiological properties.

2. The nuclear industry spends millions of dollars per year controlling similiar levels of radioactivity. The cost to risk benefit is absurd and results from the general public's misunderstanding of radiation.

Can you go rent one at Home Depot?

I'm vaguely aware of EPA efforts to shut down some small scale water supply systems here in Texas because of Radon gas in the water. Claim that the radiation levels contribute to bone cancer. Interesting note that the only cases (one or two) of bone cancer known from the affected area are people who had lived there for a very short time. Discounting those, the area has the lowest known rate of bone cancer. All very interesting.

@4: I've read that granite is [radioactive] as well

Yes, and thus the origins of the whole basement radon problem. It began with old stone foundations (in England, I believe) and then spread to concern about all below ground foundations, but it is mainly granite that is the source of the radon.

Sure, but then biochemicals are also "radioactive," due to C-14.

So before anyone gets scared, let's just say that whether it's potassium or C-14, basically it should be considered to be part of the unavoidable "background radiation."

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Morris water is hard? Pah! In Scunthorpe water pistols were classed as dangerous weapons.

Bob

It would be interesting to find out which type of water softener the physics denier the 'Scientist Extra Ordinary" C. David Parsonds has.

Pink Granite Capital in Texas, hmmm. . . the pieces are starting to come together.

The potential problem with radon gas is accumulation in buidings, which nowadays have to be fairly airtight, so that an inhabitant's exposure to the gas can be high.

The Building Research Establishment provides guidance & maps of affected areas in the UK.

@8

It began with old stone foundations (in England, I believe)

Oddly enough, it actually began with a nuclear power plant worker in PA or NJ; they found he was setting off the radiation sensors when entering the plant. Subsequent investigation found that his basement had many times background (10X ? 100X?) because it was built on the Reading prong, an outcrop of U-rich granite (in the zircons, mostly likely).

After this EPA began investigating home radon as a serious hazard.

The nuclear radiation detectors they use to monitor bridges and tunnels (looking for dirty bombs, etc) are constantly set off by trucks hauling bananas, thanks to the high potassium content.

Cool! Nuclear physics is real!

The half-life of K-40 is about 1.3 billion years

from Fun with geiger counter

So you keep YEC-defeating superweapons in your basement? Very cool.

#10 - You think that's hard? Where I come from the water is so hard that taps travel in pairs. :)

Water is hard where I live, too (Montague, NJ) - 9 to 19 grains per gallon throughout the year.

I've only had a water softener for not quite a year now (after one dead shower head, and one dead dishwasher), and I'm curious if you have run into the same issue I recently did.

In the fall/winter here, the water intake, which comes from a well a couple hundred feet away through a pipe about four feet under the ground, gets extremely cold. So cold, in fact, that a bunch of potassium precipitated out of solution below the grid in my brine tank, and as the temperature decreased from summer to fall, built up high enough to block the water from entering the float tube fast enough to keep up with the control head's brine draw during regeneration.

So it drew only a few ounces of brine before the float valve on the control head shut. Then it put the correct amount back into the brine tank, which gradually increased the water level in the tank to the overflow valve. I had to empty the brine tank and scrape out the precipitate on the bottom to get the softener working again.

Obviously, it gets at least as cold in Morris, too, so do you have this kind of issue as well? I've been thinking of drilling holes in the float tube just below the brine grid, figuring the precipitate won't get high enough to block them.

Heh. Good ol' radioactive potassium....

The chemical company I'm with makes an oilfield product that contains potassium - roughly as much as would be in a saturated potassium chloride solution. We had no end of fuss with the customs officials in Russia over the radioactivity levels inside shipping containers of the product, though it's not regulated at all here in the states.

In Maryland, there is another link (not confirmed) of water softeners with radiation.

Some softener-equipped households obtain water from individual wells, and in some cases that water contains some radium. The radium is exchanged in the water softener; when the water softener is backflushed, that radium (and calcium and other eschanged cations) is removed and disposed of with the flush water. If the household also uses an onsite septic system, that water is disposed of in the shallow subsurface and some of it percolates to the water table.

So does concrete and brick.

http://books.google.com/books?id=u8MOLAbeKCYC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=radia…

"Cool! Nuclear physics is real!"

Nah, it's just a conspiracy by the neo-Rutherfordists, who refuse to accept the theory of intelligent fission.

Never heard of using potassium chloride pellets in an ion exchange unit. We use sodium chloride pellets in ours.

BTW, you're probably getting more radiation from radon and other underground sources than from your KCl.

@4:I've read that granite is as well, so it would be fun to take one to the Capitol in D.C.

The US Capitol was originally built with Virgina sandstone, later faced with marble (metamorphic limestone.)

For further interesting applications of the radioactivity of commonly-available objects and materials, read about the Radioactive Boy Scout.

Actually some radiation exposure is good for you. Cancer incidence tends to negatively correlate with background radiation, the higher the background radiation the lower the incidence of cancer in the population.

Many foodstuffs have a natural amount of radioactivity from potassium and other soil based sources.

A fun article on natural radioactivity (new window)

Now, if you wanna get a serious geiger counter, United Nuclear has some real professional models.

I'm not into squishy science, but if it glows or hums or might explode, I'm there.

Venger -

Actually the current scientific consensus is that any amount of radiation exposure has associated harmful risk. The authoritative text on this is called BEIR VII and is published by the National Research Council (associated with the National Academies of Science).

My profession is health physics, the science of radiation safety.

When I was a Naval Nuclear Reactor Operator, we had to take a personal background radiation. We were told to eat no bananas during the week before, so that we did not skew the reading because of the potassium.

K-40 heats best.

Can't forget about anything glow in the dark, either. We had a demonstration with a geiger counter, and once you brought it close to anything with glow in the dark anything (watches, keychains, glowtape), it went off. Pretty cool!

Geiger counter day is a lot of fun in Gen Chem. It's fun to see all the things that do glow, including iodized salt (131I) and smoke detectors.

Of course, you then get to run around the room checking things out. Inevitably, students want to check their cell phones. They are usually pretty surprised when it comes out dead quiet.

They've heard a lot about "cell phones" and "radiation." For them, all radiation = nuclear. I suspect that is why so many people are ready to jump on the "cell phone radiation kills you" bandwagon.

I'm not into squishy science, but if it glows or hums or might explode, I'm there.

NO, too easy, I refuse to take that bait, lest I make some regrettable pun about sex with vibrators.

:p

We should recognize that it is the interaction of the radiation with the phosphorescent paint, that causes things to glow in the dark. The glow is not due to the primary radiation itself.

A couple of years ago I had radioactive Iodine treatment to ablate any last rmains of thyroid tissue post thyroidectomy for thyroid cancer. The buggers locked me in a room for three days and got all paranoid about transmnission through bodily fluids so had to feed me off disposable plates, I had to flush the toilet twice after using etc, all the usual protocols. At the end of 3 days a scientists walks into the room in full Outbreak gear carrying his little gurgling machine and proceeded to test everything I owned to make sure I was cool enough to leave. The bugger took a inordinate amount of interest in my knicker drawer I tell you. I still wonder whether it weas true that my knickers were still "hot" asnd really had to be destroyed or whether he was building up a collection at home of purloined underwear.

In Morris, its not the radiation that'll get you, its the 5 acre arsenic dump that will... not really cause any problems. Quick! Check your toenails!

A couple of radiation stories:

I used to work in a grocery store. There was one customer who wouldn't let anyone scan his food. Didn't want to get "rays" on his food. I told him it was just a light, but he didn't care, it's still "rays." He was always buying lots of bananas and oranges. I so wanted to tell him about the potassium, but I figured he wouldn't believe me, my information being correct. He's rather believe that we were out to get him with the "rays" in his food.

Second story:
I bought one of those Radon detectors years ago, when they were making a big deal about it. It came back at 4 picocuries/liter. Guess what I was supposed to do at that level? That's right, buy another test kit and test again.

What a racket!

I've read that granite is as well, so it would be fun to take one to the Capitol in D.C., or here in Texas the Texas

I've seen a Geiger counter held near a granite counter top in a documentary go nuts with activity. Almost a solid buzz. The operator of the Geiger counter said it was radioactive Cesium in the granite that was the culprit.

I remember a physics lab that we did a while back where someone had bought some dishes from the 40's or 50's that had orange paint made with uranium. We took readings using Geiger counters, and the radiation (albeit mostly alpha decay) was pretty high. I shudder to think of how many people unwittingly ate off of radioactive dishware back then. While blocked by your skin, alpha decay radiation can be harmful once ingested or inhaled.

The bugger took a inordinate amount of interest in my knicker drawer I tell you. I still wonder whether it weas true that my knickers were still "hot" asnd really had to be destroyed or whether he was building up a collection at home of purloined underwear.

Bride of Shrek, it's true that excretions after thyroid treatments can be a source of contamination, and hyperthyroid cats treated with I-131 require special litterbox handling for up to 3 weeks afterward as a result. So maybe it's the case that underwear can have traces of contaminated urine that he was testing for.

Now of course, that *doesn't* mean he wasn't *also* a pervy bugger with an inordinate amount of interest in your knickers.

Perhaps he's just one of the happy few who manages to build a career out of his hobbies.

The radioactivity in granite is due to natural uranium, thorium and potassium. Cesium is non-natural and though there may be some fallout cesium in the granite, it would be trivial.

In dealing with all these radiations, it is helpful to remember that there is a term called "total effective dose equivalent" or TEDE. Basically, we can normalize the cancer risk which allows us to compare the relative hazards from different types of radiations from different isotopes, whether taken ingested, inhaled or external.

For nuclear workers the annual TEDE limit is 5,000 mrem. For members of the general public it is 100 mrem per year.

For nuclear workers the annual TEDE limit is 5,000 mrem. For members of the general public it is 100 mrem per year.

*note to self: do NOT apply for a job as a nuclear technician*

Tharlactos,

Nah, I could see the glint in his eye through his 2 cm thick plexiglass mask. He was after my knickers I tells ya!

HA! HA! I understand the apprehension.

However, according to the BEIR VII report I referenced earlier...in a lifetime about 42 out of 100 people will be diagnosed with cancer. A single dose of 10,000 mrem to those 100 people will increase the number diagnosed from 42 to 43.

Most nuclear technicians get well under the legal limit.

I'd be more worried about working in the transportation, construction or mining industries.

For nuclear workers the annual TEDE limit is 5,000 mrem. For members of the general public it is 100 mrem per year.

That's true, but a lot of nuclear physics labs have administrative limits that are much less. For example, I do my research at the Thomas Jefferson National Lab (an electron accelerator/ free-electron laser.) They impose an annual limit of 1000 mrem. Most people never come close.

Cesium itself is not non-natural, to clarify, but the radioactive cesium that people worry about from fallout is, I believe, the product of fission.

Cesium's just a highly reactive alkali metal, otherwise, not especially rare.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Glen D. - you are correct, cesium metal (Cs-133) is naturally occurring, but the radioactive isotope of cesium is not (Cs-137). I was (and I presume Ted was) referring to the radioactive isotope. It is produced through fission.

I've got a friend who was born in the Ukraine in 1985; he was in the vicinity of Chernobyl during the meltdown. He tried to join the Canadian Armed Forces two years ago and they refused him entry because he was giving off too many rads.

Seriously.

It's very, very funny.

Please remember that water softener water is great for washing laundry and dishes, ok for drinking, but NOT GOOD FOR FISH IN AN AQUARIUM. Softeners make an odd combination of high pH and low hardness water that is unlike almost any freshwater environment anywhere in the world. Your zebra danios will be much more comfortable in hard water rich in natural calcium, magnesium, and carbonate ions than they would in softened water.

Sounds like your natural groundwater is about a perfect match for African Cichlids. Jewels are very easy to breed, and if you remove the female shortly after the spawn, papa cichlid will play daddy for months until one of his daughters is almost as big as he is and seems like an attractive mate. Easier than breeding danios in most cases.

It's very, very funny

?

in a chop your finger off and laugh at the blood kinda way?

#27.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173310.stm

I was (and I presume Ted was) referring to the radioactive isotope. It is produced through fission.

It wasn't a physicist explaining it, so I guess it was bad information. I believe he referred to it as Cesium 135, which according to info on Wiki sounds about as scarce as what you described.

I believe Theodore Gray (the Periodic Table Table guy) keeps a container of KCl salt substitute in his hot box (along with a few samples of depleted uranium and some "radioactive red" Fiestaware) for precisely that reason, though more for humor and conversation value than any real safety concerns. Apparently most natural sources of potassium are mildly radioactive in that manner.

Interestingly though, I've heard some people suggest that part of what might have caused multicellular life to take so long to evolve was the higher concentration of K40 in the environment -- as the ambient radiation level dropped, the rate of mutation would have dropped and cell replication in organisms would have become more consistent and therefore favorable to colonizing and eventually multicellular forms.

Hah, I have a better walking around while hot story. Few years ago I had a bone scan (nothing to worry about) where they put a shot of hot isotope (I forget which one) in a foot vein. The junior doc who did it, syringe in metal jacket, was so worried about the rads the injection hurt far more than it should have. Anyway after the injection I was told to go away for 2 hours. Well I wasn't going to hang around some dingy nhs hospital caff for 2hrs so I took myself off on the tube and spent a wonderful hour wandering lonely as a cloud around the National History Museum in London.

this was all before the current hysterical terror scare though. Be interesting to know if I would be allowed out now with all the detectors they are rumoured to be deploying.

Shhhh!
Don't let the gvt know, or they'll ban it in case terrorists use it to make a dirty bomb!

"I remember a physics lab that we did a while back where someone had bought some dishes from the 40's or 50's that had orange paint made with uranium. We took readings using Geiger counters, and the radiation (albeit mostly alpha decay) was pretty high. I shudder to think of how many people unwittingly ate off of radioactive dishware back then. "

It's not the paint on the dishes (although in principle, lead-based paint _could_ do it), it is the clay. As noted above, Fiestaware is well-known to be hot (I think it is a high uranium clay).

Speaking of radioactivity in medicine, I was stoked when my wife had her thyroid imaging done, where they shot her with sodium pertechnitate (TcO4-). Pertechnitate is a good iodide mimic, so gets taken up rapidly by the thyroid (and Tc decays (gamma emmission) with a half-life of something like 15 minutes). After the shot, the used basically a 2D Geiger counter to image the thyroid (with an array detector, I presume). She had to lay perfectly still for 3 or 4 images (10 minutes or so each), but I got to sit and watch the image form on the computer. It was awesome.

Radiopharmaceuticals are cool, with lots of complicated thought behind them. For example, aside from the chemistry, think about this: if the stuff has a half-life of 15 minutes, where do you get your material? It's not like you can have it made up the day before and shipped overnight (you have to start with quite a bit to have much left after 48 half-lives (12 hours)). So radio-labs have to have the equipment to collect their own batch right before they administer the test. Fortunately, Tc is pretty easy to get, but some of the precursors are more challenging. I love the places that have their own synchrotron.

I remember a physics lab that we did a while back where someone had bought some dishes from the 40's or 50's that had orange paint made with uranium

That was FiestaWare. Looked beautiful, but the paint was, indeed, loaded with Uranium Oxide.

Later versions of FiestaWare had paint that was not.

Picture of the common Uranium pottery glaze.

Speaking of hard water. . .

On a tour of the underground Roman cistern in Bacoli, Italy, we were shown the calcium accumulation on the walls. Two millenia later, you could still see where the water level once was.

Our guide told us that the reason the people of the Campania region didn't succumb to lead poisoning like the folks in Rome was because the water had (and still has) so much calcium in it that the lead water pipes developed a protective coating.

We don't have a water softener here, but the dishwashers have built-in places for the salt.

... dishes from the 40's or 50's that had orange paint made with uranium. We took readings using Geiger counters, and the radiation (albeit mostly alpha decay) was pretty high. I shudder to think of how many people unwittingly ate off of radioactive dishware back then. While blocked by your skin, alpha decay radiation can be harmful once ingested or inhaled.

Anyone eating the dishware could be at risk, but I'd like to point out that once an alpha ray slows down and grabs hold of a couple of electrons, it is merely helium, possibly the most inert element in existence. The damage that alphas do is while they slow down and grab electrons.

All this fun and now New York City wants to require licensing of geiger counters.

Anyways, radioactive iodine treatment and thorium lenses aside, air travel is what's impressive. Cruising altitude is about 40x background rates.