God is like a Thai girlfriend

Off-topic: pseudolinguist claims evolution is unfalsifiable. Thoughts on how M. J. Harper can achieve a trifecta of wrong?

I was reading Irreligion recently and noticed that Paulos has rather a lighter touch than he exhibited in his blockbuster bestseller Innumeracy. (One of my students, assigned to read Innumeracy, called Paulos a "caffeine-crazed belligerent math prof with a chip on his shoulder," or something like that.) The kinder and gentler approach suits him, and the story from Thailand is thoughtful and entertaining.

Now I must go answer my e-mail. Hot Asian chicks want to communicate with me, as do some sweaty Russian bois. I'm sure they're all sincere, too. And I have a few million bucks coming in from Nigeria. (It's really getting to be time to change my e-mail address and temporarily re-zero my spamability.)

"...I don't want to scoff too much at yearning and need, whether it be for love or for a divinity..."

Well, the former only does localized damage, while the latter might destroy a whole civilization.

Zeno, sound to me like the clear path is to set up a lucrative business matching up sweaty russian boys with hot asian chicks. You've got their emails - start spamming!

Zeno, sound to me like the clear path is to set up a lucrative business matching up sweaty russian boys with hot asian chicks.

Considering the demographic trends for sex ratio in those regions, matchmaking of (sweaty?) Russian gals and hot Asian boys might be more profitable.

I heard him tell that story in an interview on Point Of Inquiry. It's a good'un.

John Allen Paulmos wrote:

All I'm sure of is that I don't want to scoff too much at yearning and need, whether it be for love or for a divinity. I just don't possess the latter.

To which a commenter replied:

Your last two sentences here are very touching and serve to set you apart from the more polemical of the recent anti-religion books.

You know, I've seen this same theme repeated many times, from both religious and non-religious people: the 'yearning and need' for spiritual consolation should be treated gently and kindly, as if people of faith were in some sort of emotional crisis and need to be soothed. They're broken. They are not strong. Reassure them that it's okay to believe. If possible, admit to your own weaknesses, so they don't feel alone. Jolly them along.

Now, this approach makes sense in specific personal cases: you don't tell the grieving that no, their dead mother is not looking down on them from heaven, etc. But the condescending stance that we should "sympathize with the weakness" for those who "need" to believe in God doesn't always sit very well with the general stance of the godly themselves, who, when not mewling pathetically for special sensitivity whenever their facts are being disputed, tend to brag that religious faith is power, wisdom, and the very foundation of maturity and what it means to be human. Without it, they would be nothing. They'd be ... like atheists.

But no, we should not scoff at that as arrogant or anything. That's just the "yearning and need" talking. Approach it on tip-toe, lest you break the spell and send them hurtling on to a mental breakdown.

"Religion is our crutch because we are weak -- but don't you dare insult us by calling religion a 'crutch for the weak.'" That is, you can call it that, but only in a warm and loving tone of approval.

God, since ages past,
Says the words we want to hear:
"Me love you long time."

As I mentioned at the Paulos site, why is it only Western men that are "yearning" for Thai girls?

There aren't any lonely Western women that can't find a soul mate in America or Europe?

#9, bernarda:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscri…

presented without comment

God is like a Thai girlfriend

He needs help with His spelling?
.

My reading of the Paulos piece is that he began by scoffing at the thing being yearned for (God, or the imaginary Thai girlfriend) and ended up respecting the yearning itself, because the yearning is real, even if the thing being yearned for is not. Yearning for an emotional connection to something isn't a sign of weakness, it's part of being human. The trick is finding something better than fantasy to connect to. Scoffing doesn't help with that part.

Wow, Cuttlefish, a haiku. I don't recall seeing one from you before; are you branching out?

You know, I've seen this same theme repeated many times, from both religious and non-religious people: the 'yearning and need' for spiritual consolation should be treated gently and kindly,

I read Paulos as saying that yearning and need, per se, should be should be treated gently and kindly, not that yearning for divinity should be granted any special respect. I'd venture we've all felt yearning at some time, and know its piquancy; treating that gently when we see it in others is a matter of commendable empathy, not loathsome weakness.

God is not like a Thai girlfriend. Maybe a Thai girlfriend won't answer your prayers.Maybe she won't be faithful to you.Maybe she's not omnipotent or omni-anything.But she actually does exist; that puts her one up on God.

God is Like a Thai Girlfriend

Hallalejah! I'm a believer! And I can't wait for church.

Where is my Thai girlfriend?

Gregory KusnicK #11 wrote:

Yearning for an emotional connection to something isn't a sign of weakness, it's part of being human. The trick is finding something better than fantasy to connect to. Scoffing doesn't help with that part.

Oh, I don't disagree, and like both you and Bill Dauphin #13, I recognized and respected the heart in Paulos' post, and the theme behind it. It was an interesting and thought-provoking essay.

My concern was directed more towards the instant response of "good for you, you're not like the BAD scoffing atheists" which immediately followed, and I reacted more to that. There does seem to be a tendency for people of faith to switch on 'victim' status and request sympathy for what is, the rest of the time, usually touted as a great strength. I think that, in most situations, what's being considered "scoffing" isn't directed towards the yearning for emotional connection -- it's being directed towards the smug certainty that one has connected, and other people are missing out.

As Sam Harris once pointed out, the very desire for God is often translated into miraculous evidence for God's actual existence. That's problematic.

I know a couple of guys who vacationed in Thailand and were known to have exclaimed: "OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD!".

These Thai women could very well be rendezvous-ing with these farangs on a regular basis. In which case there's some deception (the guys being led to believe their relationships are exclusive), but it's hardly a fantasy.

The LORD is my Thai Girlfriend; I shall not want.
She maketh me to lie down on massage tables:
She leadeth me beside the loud discos.
She restoreth my cocktail:
She leadeth me through the back streets of Bangkok for kicks.
Yea, though I walk through the district of the red lights, I will fear no cops and shakedown artists:
for thou art with me; thy miniskirt and thy high heels they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of nine other girls:
thou anointest my back with oil; my staff riseth up.
Surely hashish and giggles shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of my Thai Girlfriend for ever.

re: "miss you", I got a little nicknack with that written in Thai on it. คิดถีงนะ

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13555400@N06/1490607664/

Ngong, is your name after the thai word? งง

ถูกต้องแล้ว , Khun Abbie!

As I mentioned at the Paulos site, why is it only Western men that are "yearning" for Thai girls?

There aren't any lonely Western women that can't find a soul mate in America or Europe?

I think an embarrassing number of Western men appreciate (or expect to find themselves appreciating) the fact that most Oriental cultures are less accepting and encouraging of assertiveness and social equality for women than are most Western cultures, and expect (not unrealistically, I fear) that the attitudes, demeanors, and expectations of women from those cultures will reflect this.

There may be other factors, too.

I think an embarrassing number of Western men appreciate (or expect to find themselves appreciating) the fact that most Oriental cultures are less accepting and encouraging of assertiveness and social equality for women than are most Western cultures, and expect (not unrealistically, I fear) that the attitudes, demeanors, and expectations of women from those cultures will reflect this.

They are going to be in for a big surprise! I've noticed that women from cultures where they get kicked around a lot and trod upon, grow up tough. Otherwise they don't grow up at all. When they hit the US and realize that they don't have to walk a step behind a male or sit in the back of the bus, they become assertive fast.

People are people and don't underestimate how much of western culture is now global culture.

อ้อ เป็นคนไทยไหม ฉันเป็นคนอเมริกัน เรียนภาษาไทยเอง รู้เรื่งนิดหน่อย งงเสมอ

That was a vivid illustration. I'm glad I read it.

I loved the book Innumeracy, read it years ago and in fact, was just thinking about it the other day. His point that early grade maths should be taught by mathematicians, not gym teachers, has stuck with me.

His point that early grade maths should be taught by mathematicians, not gym teachers, has stuck with me.

OK, who else had an athletic coach as math teacher, for whom athletics was the primary thing and teaching was a way into coaching?

My best friend and I taught each other 10th grade math because the teacher was so bad.

I had a PE teacher for physics. He was awful -- he just told us to read certain chapters and take a standardized test. In that class, my friends and I got to be really good at playing Hearts.

I also had one for "health", which was supposed to include sex ed. His only point of view was that athletics was really good for you, and you better not have sex...and he told us a lot of nonsense, like that ejaculation depletes the male natural essence and reduces sports performance. He mainly spent the class time talking football with the jocks.

I also had a coach for PE, of course, and he was a freaking psychopath. We had daily jock inspections. Failure to do exactly as he said was grounds for a hack -- he had a collection of wooden paddles, and he would hit so hard you'd sometimes bleed and blister. His job was safe, though: he had a winning football team.

Teachers should be hired for their competence at academic subjects and ability to teach, and they can secondarily opt to coach a sport as an amateur and enthusiast. This whole business of hiring a moron to horsewhip the football team to victory, and secondarily insisting that they teach some important subject, is yet another thing wrong with the American education system.

My biology teacher was the basketball coach, and my "health" class was taught by the football coach (the one who coached a losing team).

I think my gym teacher was gay! She had short hair.

That's quite impressive Abbie. I read Thai, but don't write particularly well. I'm American.

That fruit on your flickr page is a dragonfruit.

There may be other factors, too.

A Thai friend who worked in the airline business tells me he has known four Thai men who married American women. All of the couples divorced in a number of years.

Thai men are, of course, notorious for philandering. So we're not just talking about the fantasies of pitiable Western men...it's also about Southeast Asian women who hope for a higher standard, and use whatever medium to reach out. More power to them.

OMG! My favorite Vitamin Water flavor is also my mystery fruit!

It's pretty easy to see the appeal of Thai women for farangs (Western folks). They're often really cute, they dress cute almost always without looking slutty at all -- Julie and I have wondered at how hard it seems to be for a young Thai woman to actually look tacky (and 2 or 3 Thai university students on a Hello Kitty-stickered pink motorcycle is major-league cute), and they're attentive. That's even without any power/money imbalance; Thais are generally nice people, and the women are generally really nice. They're thoughtful, they remember you (they remembered us, a couple, as customers from our previous visit last year; they remembered our preferences in foods and drinks from visit to visit). And they're nice even when you have nothing to do with business or money; just talking, in this case talking to us, a couple, or a Thai woman talking to Julie.

Add in a power/money imbalance and you have an easily understood aphrodisiac for older farang males. It's not that there aren't relationships here that you'd see back home, but there certainly are a number of older farang male/much younger Thai woman relationships. 30 years differentials are the norm. A paunchy, balding 60-year old farang can match up with a pretty 30-year old Thai female, even outside the bar scene. Thai women are practical, and Thai men tend toward unreliability. They're used to relationships that don't last, they're used to relationships that are parttime. A relationship like that with someone who has money... well, even we have a saying that "it's just as easy to love a rich man as a poor man".

Some of these relationships work well and last long, good for both sides. Some are more like prostitution, and no doubt really soul-sucking for the women involved. Like life is, it's complicated.

I might as well link my pics here too. I mentioned them over at Avedon's a while back.
Thailand
Luang Prabang, Laos
Luang Prabang, Laos">Lucky the banana-eating dog

BTW, my favorite Thaiism on a t-shirt is "Love and care make me wonder". And dragonfruit is kinda bland; better to try it when you're in SE Asia rather than North America where it's expensive.

OK, who else had an athletic coach as math teacher, for whom athletics was the primary thing and teaching was a way into coaching?

The only teachers I had who were coaches first and classroom teachers second were in social studies: My world history teacher was a JV football coach and my American history teacher was the varsity baseball coach. Neither was a brilliant academician, but nor was either the stereotypical stupid jock.

My 12-grade honors English teacher coached the girls' golf team, but that was strictly an extracurricular gig for her, and she was a great literature teacher. None of my math and science teachers were coaches (one of the members of the math department was the girls' tennis coach, but he was never my teacher).

Mind you, this was in Texas, where high school sports (football in particular) are KING.

My 10th grade biology teacher was, from what I remember, not even the head football coach, but one of the assistants. I had to bail him out when students were questioning the evolution section. Well, I had to remind the class that evolution was science, anyway, and that god stuff was religion.

I ended up getting a degree in the humanities in college because my teacher who taught most of the math (Algebra 2, Geometry, Calc) and Physics was the wrestling coach. I wasn't a jock, so I 'failed' Algebra II dispite having grades that mathmatically should have been passing. So I had to repeat Algebra 2 and he would never consent to let me take physics. Getting a B.S. in one of the sciences would have taken me 7 years just because of the math prerequisites.

OK, who else had an athletic coach as math teacher, for whom athletics was the primary thing and teaching was a way into coaching?

All my math teachers have been qualified, if uninspiring. I had a science teacher trained as a PE teacher, though. Not only was she a creationist, but I had to explain to her (and the class) that no, humans were NOT the only species with fully four-chambered hearts. I wish I were making this up.

30 years differentials are the norm. A paunchy, balding 60-year old farang can match up with a pretty 30-year old Thai female, even outside the bar scene.

It's eye-catchingly obvious when that happens, and there may be little pockets of expates where it's commonplace, but a 30 year differential is not "the norm", dude. As with Westerners, plenty of Thai women are appalled at that sort of matchup.

Why would a homely middle aged guy like Paulos want to meet "girls" in Thailand?

Intelllecual discussions perhaps?

And old did he say these girls were?

The best health teacher I ever had happened to be a coach, as well. While "health" wasn't exactly a rough subject, he taught sex ed without fear. He used some good documentaries, a lot of class discussion, and a lot of humor to get his points across quickly and calmly. His explanation of how STDs can move through a population was spectacularly effective, even though we were laughing through the whole thing.

He was a good man. He pointed me toward some college scholarships, primarily through the Lions club, even though I was only in 9th grade at the time. Unfortunately, one of the references required for that money was a religious leader. I missed out on that one.

At my high school the algebra teacher was also the baseball coach. In that case, however, his background was in math. The coaching thing was secondary. I guess baseball wasn't important enough at my high school to reverse the priorities. On the other hand, when one of the PE instructors needed to pick up an extra course to round out his load, he was usually given a remedial math class. The consequences were seldom pretty, but no one cared about those kids anyway, making it an elegant solution.

My Thai girlfriend,My Thai girlfriend,Why have you abandoned me?

Why would a homely middle aged guy like Paulos want to meet "girls" in Thailand?

Intelllecual discussions perhaps?

And old did he say these girls were?

I think you're straining too hard to make something sordid out of this. According to his story, he was in Thailand visiting friends, and only ended up "meeting girls" by chance, because he happened to wander into the internet cafe where they were hanging out.

Maybe you think it counts as flirting that he helped them with their English while they were typing sexy notes, but that hardly makes him an Evil Exploitive Western Sex Tourist™.

BTW, if you think he's homely, remind me never to send you my picture.

Sastra said:

"You know, I've seen this same theme repeated many times, from both religious and non-religious people: the 'yearning and need' for spiritual consolation should be treated gently and kindly, as if people of faith were in some sort of emotional crisis and need to be soothed. They're broken. They are not strong. Reassure them that it's okay to believe. If possible, admit to your own weaknesses, so they don't feel alone. Jolly them along."

I agree. It is kind of patronising toward the religious.

I must confess to finding the importance of sport in US schools to be puzzling. In the UK schools do sports, and will play matches against other schools, but anyone who has any real ability is likely to also play for a team outside of school. The large number of football (soccer), rugby and cricket clubs that cater for amateur players at various levels nearly all run youth teams, and it is in these teams that most coaching will be going on.

Does the US not have local teams of amateurs that represent their village or town, and play in leagues of other nearby towns ?

@Matt:

Generally, no. There are often small amateur leagues for children in various sports, some gaining real intensity and scrutiny from recruiters as you reach pre-college ages, but most youth sport in the US runs through schools. Local pride usually is more directed toward one's alma mater or where their children attend than toward town or region.

Many schools can't afford to have a full-time coach on staff, so that person to branch out into the "edjumacating". Humongous industries are built on funneling these kids through the school "amateur" systems, including schools that exist for no other purpose, all in the hopes that one of them will be a real pro prospect.

It's sort of depressing overall, but for the individual fan, it can be a lot of fun.

Abbie: I think my gym teacher was gay! She had short hair.

I thought it was required by law that in every American high school, the Girl's Gym teacher is married to the Drama Club coach.

So you see, there are no gay teachers in America.

I thought it was required by law that in every American high school, the Girl's Gym teacher is married to the Drama Club coach.

Well, in the school I attended (and in my daughter's current high school), the drama teachers were invariably female, so it doesn't follow that...

...there are no gay teachers in America.

;^)

BTW, I must say, this is the BEST BLOGPOST TITLE, EVER!

These comments about PE teachers teaching the sciences explains a lot about the US and attitudes to science. I was taught final year chemistry by a geography graduate, but geography is at least a science. The PE teachers taught PE, and health Ed in one case and Japanese in another (he was Japanese). But science was taught by science graduates and maths by maths graduates. The problem with the maths teaching was not that the teachers did not understand maths, it was that they couldn't teach it. Our penultimate year maths class taught itself calculus, whoever figured something out would explain it to the people close to them and it would radiate out through the class. The teacher's method of teaching you was to do a problem in front of you in silence, say 'like that' and move on.

PE teachers 'teaching' physics, shudder. I think you people need to demand that only suitably qualified people teach the appropriate subjects. If recruitment is a problem, do what the rest of the world does, raise the salaries and offer inducements to people to train in that area. Of course that might require that enough tax dollars get spent to achieve this. You might not be able to import the expertise your population doesn't have forever you know, there are more and more opportunities in China.

PE teachers 'teaching' physics, shudder. I think you people need to demand that only suitably qualified people teach the appropriate subjects.

Let's not go too far. Despite all the horror stories, some coaches are perfectly adequate teachers, and many are classroom teachers first and coaches second. If you're preparing to be a secondary school classroom teacher, adding a credential in some cocurricular activity or elective subject -- whether it's a sport or drama or shop or whatever -- is a great way to make yourself a more desirable hire.

Not all coaches are muscleheaded jerks, and the best of them may have some insight into communicating with teenagers that classroom-only teachers may not. I'm not arguing in defense of unqualified teachers; I'm just saying it's unjustified to automatically assume coaches are unqualified in their other fields.

pharyngula rocks
monty python, microbiology, fintroll and tonight folks are posting in thai
i'll type it again

pharyngula rocks

lakorn na krup อิอิ

Today before class, I was talking with my students about their upcoming classes. One of them has a weird math class--something like they do math like the ancients did, including without zero. Interesting approach, but struck me as odd.

I shocked them when I told them that I spent 3 1/2 years as a ChemE major (I ended up switching over to my second major--music--because I just ended up HATING engineering so much). So, I've done the calculus, diffeq, physics, chemistry, etc....all the while singing and ending up as a sociologist. the thing that's so frightening, though, is how deficient my math education was in HS. As I mentioned above, I had to teach myself part of it (along with my best friend) and had to take remedial trig as a freshman.

Then again, I lived in a town of 1200 people in rural Minnesota. Maybe I shouldn't have expected too much because I had to take a bus to a different town for pre-calc my senior year in HS.

I'm rambling, I know, but I look at the students I'm teaching, and their privileged backgrounds (most went to private or prep schools) and the opportunities they had..I compare them to what I had, which wasn't terrible when compared with students I've worked with who go to inner-city Boston schools and I get so depressed.

Earlier today, there was a heated argument at Pandagon, and some fuckwit was like, "Just let the fundies have their creationist education in Kansas if we can get a Democrat in the White House" and I wanted to scream...and leave this shithole of a country.

Everything is fucked.

My high chemistry teacher also coached football. Given all the horror stories out there, you might be amazed to learn that he was actually a competent chem teacher. The football team didn't do that badly either.

Now that people mention it, I think that my health teacher was also a coach, but I don't remember what she coached, field hockey perhaps? There was also an English teacher who coached tennis, but I really think that English was his primary class.

There is a huge difference between someone hired as a chem teacher, who also enjoys sports and coaches on the side, and someone hired as a coach who then gets inappropriately stuffed into teaching a chemistry class.

Coaching itself isn't bad. It's the priorities schools set: when they need both a chem teacher and a coach, they'll hire the coach.

Everything is fucked.

I absolutely agree... but I don't think everything is irredeemably fucked, so take heart.

I also don't think we can unfuck everything all at once. Getting a Democrat in the White House is the first step in a whole range of changes that will, if we keep plugging, eventually result in reclaiming Kansas education from the fundie creationists.

Patience, grasshopper: The Democratic choices may not be perfect, but they're all unfuckers... unlike their Republican colleagues. And if we're persistent and diligent, we can push them in the direction of the future we want.