You never can tell with Jonah Goldberg — everything he writes tends to be so stupid you're left thinking that he must be joking. He's just finished watching that new propaganda movie, Fitna, which portrays some of the worst atrocities of Islam — beheadings and terrorism and rioting and fatwas, etc. — and what does this bring to his feeble mind? Those awful, evil, odious atheists who put Darwin fish on their cars. After all, chopping heads off people is exactly equivalent to putting a bumper sticker on your Volvo.
I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.
The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.
As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. "Namely: It's acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."
But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.
Uh-oh. If Goldberg had his way, I'd be off to Gitmo if he saw the back end of my car. I don't just have a Darwin fish … I've got a T. rex eating a Christian fish.
But basically, his whole argument is ridiculous. Having a statement that proclaims your acceptance of the scientific evidence over the bizarre revelations of an old, data-free book is not bigotry, and it is especially not comparable to religious fanatics murdering people. It is also ironic for a dogmatic conservative like Goldberg to be whining about the "agreed-on etiquette of identity politics" — I've never seen that coming from his side of the political fence. I grew up with "America: Love It or Leave It" bumper stickers yammering at me from the back of cars, and now we've got "Anti-War=Pro-Terrorism", and of course Goldberg's own book, Liberal Fascism. His "agreed-on etiquette" is nothing but a set of rules he applies only to his political opponents and never to his political allies.
So, I'm confused. It's April Fool's day. A fool has written a foolish article. Is it real or is it a joke? I sincerely cannot tell.
If Goldberg really wanted to catch us by surprise, he should have written something intelligent.
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Surely the "joke" of Darwin fish is stale.
Other than that, though, who cares?
The real worry is that poking fun at religion will not be tolerated as, say, poking fun at political figures is. That is what is scary about to much of the Islamic world, and I most certainly don't want to go down that road.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I had my Darwin Fish ripped off my car in Memphis the weekend before Thanksgiving 2006.
Darwin Fish - exercise in free speech.
Christian Response - vandalism of private property.
...sweet. :P
Well, I was going to deny that message — I mean, the actual content of evolutionary biology says that we're all related and that there's no such thing as a Great Chain of Being — but now, he's really making me wonder.
Paging Mr. Goldberg: stop lending credence to your imaginary enemies!
"I had my Darwin Fish ripped off my car in Memphis the weekend before Thanksgiving 2006.
Darwin Fish - exercise in free speech.
Christian Response - vandalism of private property.
...sweet. :P"
Different time and place, but the same thing happened to me. I found the broken pieces laid out nicely by my driver's side door where I'd be sure to find them.
Love thy neighbor, don't judge, and all that.
The most troubling thing in his article is this:
I don't see why criticizing religion is any different from criticizing political affiliation. To me it's the same as if he'd said a person would be rightly condemned for the bigotry of mocking Republican or Green party members. Religion should not need a protective shield, and criticism of it is not a moral equivalent of racism or sexism. (Of course, try explaining this to the guy who had to desperately redefine fascism in order to call his political opponents fascists.)
That's why I've found April Fool's Day depressing for the last couple of years: I'm continuously laughing, then realizing that no, they really mean that.
"But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance"
No, the whole point is scientific accuracy, and if that just so happens to displace ancient nonsense, so much the better.
Would he be happier if we depicted anatomically-correct fishapods on the backs of our cars? I'm sure many would be happy to replace the old iconic fish with a realistic Tiktaalik roseae. Would he then argue that the fossils themselves are insulting and intolerant to his religion?
So, I guess that sporting a Jesus fish is a cheap way to show your devotion to Christ, an act which should also be a "pose without consequence"?
Think before you speak, Jonah.
(I had a Darwin fish on my car in high school. It got ripped off more than once. Oddly enough, it also made me a better driver: I kept thinking, "Now I have to set a good example. . . .")
Interesting variation:
I'd like Goldberg to see that. Probably his mind would break down on the spot.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I've seen students rant about Darwin fish in the campus newspaper. Like most of them even know the real origin of the fish (ICTHYS) graffiti in the first place.
But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence.
Of the people I know with Darwin fish, more than half have had their cars vandalized as a result. I somehow doubt the statistics are similar for Jesus fish.
The beginning of this post looks a little mangled; here's a link to Goldberg's original dreck.
I've always hated that tool. The "G files" or whatever he calls his stupid fucking column. He makes Dinesh look like Craig Venter.
". . . the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics."
I count at least three unwarranted assumptions in this phrase alone.
...sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.
I am a native English speaker and I think reasonably intelligent, but I can not figure out what this means. Is he saying evolution is the truth and Christianity is the power? Is this some idiomatic phrase I never heard of, is "speak truth to power" a euphemism for "I fart in your general direction"[with a ridiculous french accent]?
I saw a Darwin fish on a car for the first time in the UK in York today, they also had a pirate fish *waves madly to driver of said small dark blue car incase they are a reader here!*
We have had a pirate fish on our car for a while now, our kids love it :)
I have the fish being eaten by a Tyrannosaurus on my car and it has stayed put for a long time. It usually gets a good laugh. Actually someone commented to me the other day that they believe in both. (They're halfway there!)
When I got my first car back in college I was lectured by a Catholic friend about the "intolerance" it represented. I eventually convinced her that for me it wasn't about being anti-Christian, but rather about being pro-science in a culture where ignorance is promoted. Being a science major herself she came to agree with me. But I need not have felt too smug about that victory, because in grad school I had some good samaritans smash in my brake lights and steal the Darwin fish.
Needless to say, I replaced the brake lights and the fish and every car I've had since then has proudly worn a Darwin fish. I know which side the intolerance is on, Mr. Goldberg, and I will not give in to it.
Jonah Goldberg is an amusing figure. He seems to dissatisfied with simply being another yammering, well-paid, high-status idiot in the punditocracy and actually wants to prove that he's some kind of intellectual. This ambition of his, though futile, continues to produce many amusing screeds. This is only the latest example.
Didn't he just undercut his entire message here? Not only did he just admit evolution is a "truth," he rightly names the Christian majority whining about "persecution" to be the ones in power. A corrupt power even, since they need truth to be given to them, they lack it on their own.
Or perhaps it's just another idiot writer latching onto a well-worn phrase without giving sufficient consideration to how it functions in the context they've used it.
My favorite fish thing on the back of a car didn't have Jesus or IXOYE (at least the Greek equivalent) or even Darwin. It said, "Gefilte".
The fact that the catalog that sells Darwin fish also sells replacement feet for the Darwin fish says it all.
Boy, he really misunderstands evolution, or assumes that we really misunderstand evolution, or something. Less evolved?
"Speaking truth to power" is hilariously ironic, given the origin is Quaker and doesn't mean what he seems to think it means. Well, I'm not sure what he thinks it means, but it obviously doesn't mean anything that fits with his attitudes. http://www.quaker.org/sttp.html>A link.
He was offended by a Darwin fish. So the person who had the symbol on their car 'intended' to offend him.
Case closed - Court finds for Plaintiff - Defendant remanded to custody of the P.C. police to await sentencing - Court adjourned - All Rise.
- Judge Goldberg has left the courtroom
I don't have a Darwin fish on my car because I think it looks too much like a Christian symbol. It's like saying I am a Christian who accepts evolution. It is a Christian symbol after all, even if it is a modified one.
If I may quote Southpark: " Just because you tolerate it doesn't mean you have to like it!"
And, again if I may, Bette Midler: "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
My car had a FSM on the back until it showed up on my front steps. I had just assumed it fell off and a neighbor knew it was mine so they put it on my steps. But mayeb I'm wrong and it was taken off on purpose.
I really thought it didn't stay on the car because it didn't have the power of Jesus to hold it there.
Where can I get the T rex eating the fish? On the other hand wouldn't a Spinosaurus be more accurate?
Geez, did he have to take special treatments to get skin that thin, or is it genetic?
Creationists celebrate the reverse version of April Fool's Day, where you say something that isn't nonsense. In this case, it's "Christian-baiting in American popular culture [...] is a way to speak truth to power [...]".
The other 364 days of the year, Creationists stick with the story that they're a powerless, persecuted minority who are in sole possession of the truth.
#13 danley wrote
He makes Dinesh look like Craig Venter.
Roffle. Win.
Wow, the guy's so hateful he can read all that into Darwin fish and some bumper stickers.
Would it be too hateful if I called him a dick, even if I mean it in a blaise way?
He is right. My Darwin fish makes me smug. I always get smug when I know I'm right.
TO #29: This came up on a search for the T-rex eating the fish: http://yque.com/ttyeaficarem.html
That's the way this scumbag Goldberg operates. He equates everything liberal (or everything he doesn't like) as fascist (see his pathetic attempt at revisionist history, Liberal Fascism). He hates 'Darwinists', so they are automatically equivalent to Islamic extremists. It's tarring with the same brush at its crudest and most infantile.
I proudly display a "Science" fish on the back of my car -- its fins have evolved to the point where they look like the fins of a rocket. I also have a FSM on the other side, to balance it.
And yes, I expect that they will be vandalized. That's why I bought two of each. =)
If only Christians followed the teachings of Jesus. *sigh*
-Buxley
The ones that I can't stand are the little Jeeebus fish 'swimming' behind the big one. They not only proudly announce how many units the owners have pumped out, but also the fact that they will be indoctrinated to become little jesus muppets, too.
Where can I get the T rex eating the fish?
evolvefish.com
A Christian once told me that my Darwin fish was religious bigotry, in that it mocked Christianity. I told her no -- it was making fun of creationism, and 'creationism is a science theory -- right? It's not about religion."
A creationist, she had to agree. She then had to agree that no, there was nothing bigoted about disagreeing with and making fun of science theories.
(My minivan sports a Darwin fish, an Evolve fish, and a Flying Spaghetti Monster in the middle.)
The Darwin Fish is not meant to be offensive. Like the Christian fish it is merely meant to display the driver's beliefs (in the Darwin fish case a belief in the scientific method, unbiased observation, and cold hard evidence). The one that Goldberg should really be pissed about is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
_ _(o)_(o)_ _
._\`:_ F S M _:' \_,
/ (`---'\ `-.
,-` _) (_,
On the first part, Goldberg accepts evolution, and sometimes faults creationism (if none too convincingly--note that he knows his readers):
Which is why although I do disagree with him, and with D'Souza, I certainly wouldn't aim most of my shots at those guys.
Nevertheless, we must maintain our right to blaspheme and to criticize any idea that is out there. In truth, I don't know that I would sport a Darwin fish on my car (if I cared enough to decorate it at all--it's close to junking time), because I personally share some of his opinions about the fish. In the larger scheme of things, however, this is about the freedom to say anything about ideas and concepts, and not primarily about discrimination against people. The fact that some take personal offense does not change the situation that this is primarily a matter of de facto, as well as de jure, free speech.
Anyhow, this is all a bit late. By now the Darwin fish vs. Jesus fish wars are getting old, and now we have Sushi (should be sashami, but whatever) fish, flying saucer fish, and a host of others. The joke has moved on, and so should Goldberg.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I live in the "Bible belt" and have had a Darwin fish tag on my truck for about 5 years. The only comment I ever received was one of approval.
You know what emblem you need? A big octopus eating a christian fish. How has that not been invented yet??
I have no symbols on my car, as the poor thing is incapable of defending itself from vandalism-minded religionists while it's parked alone. Maybe I'll add some auto-defense capabilities later.
However, I'm happy to express my views verbally (or, say, on t-shirts) so that if someone has a problem with my opinion, they can tell me to my face.
I most strenuously disagree with his "pose without consequence" jibe: oh sure, the rust on my '86 Camry may be the only outward manifestation my support for oxidation, but my car's steadfast refusal to start at any time during the months of October through April shows I will not take global warming sitting down (well, only because the bus is so crowded there're no seats available.)
But more to the point: if the Christians are so upset about their symbol being appropriated by evolutionists, they shouldn't have picked something that evolved.
Then again, perhaps the fish is the perfect symbol of Christianity: if anything, the story of the loaves and the fishes from which the ΙΧΘΥΣ is said to be born shows us that, like so many other aspects of the religion based on him, Jesus didn't create anything; he only copied what was already there.
Oops, "sashimi."
Never had the stuff, as a matter of fact.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Well, the Darwin fish is a direct parody of the ichthys symbol, so I can see how Christians would take offense. But it goes both ways.
Down here in the South (Pensacola repruhsent! Hovind 4 life!) you see a bunch of the stickers with the "TRUTH" fish eating the Darwin fish. That never fails to creep me the hell out.
I wonder what Jonah thinks of those.
Um ... Goldberg doesn't like smugness?
The man who refuses to even discuss the massive holes in his moronic little book about Der Liberalfaschisticuffs but rather sits back and says "There! I made it-so it's proof that my opinion is true!"--That guy doesn't enjoy smugness?
Thinks: Must not spew milk from my nose!
I guess when you stare into the mirror you dislike it when your reflection laughs at you.
He doesn't mention how he feels about those Jesus fish--those drivers always seem pretty smug to me, nor about the myriad of "In case of rapture this vehicle will be unoccupied" stickers.
So few of them add the rest:
"... It will them plow into a school bus, killing 12 children.
God is love."
Damn, PZ, a T. rex eating a Jesus fish? Way cool. They didn't sell those when I bought my Darwin fish, which is behind a Jesus fish, um -- wrestling. Yeah, that's it, they're wrestling! It's my second one; I prefer to think that the first one fell off instead of someone in Mesa removing it.
Just a few days ago, I happened to be behind a person with a bumper sticker that read "What part of 'Thou shalt not kill' don't you understand?" - God.
Right next to this was an NRA sticker (National Rifle Association, for the uninitiated). I found that amusing.
JC
As silly as Goldberg's ranting about the Darwin fish is, I found his closing paragraph to be the most insulting.
Yes, I do think that people who honor facts and evidence over that of faith are superior. I will make no apologies for that. But one does not have to evolve to this, all one needs to do is to trust their own and other people intelligence over their own innate fears.
But making the claim that we do not show the same contempt for Islam, in what world does Jonah Goldberg life in? Most of us are fortunate enough to not have to live in those societies. But it does not mean we give it a free ride.
Oh, wait. Goldberg is talking to those people who believe that atheists have a soft spot for Islam.
On a different tangent, where can someone get a bumper sticker of a T. Rex eating a coconut?
"If Goldberg really wanted to catch us by surprise, he should have written something intelligent."
---Yeah, like that's an available option.
One of the first things I did when I bough my most recent used car was go out and remove the fish emblem with a knife and "Goo-be-gone". My fundie mother-in-law saw, but made no comment.
I haven't replaced it yet. Do they make a metallic red "A"? I might pair that with a Happy Human or a Randi fish.
My last car had a "Got was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him" bumper sticker.
That one stayed on. My gay and pro-choice ones usually got vandalized. Yay, Mankato.
I'm curious - if you believe in God, what does ripping Darwin Fish off cars show? I would figure that a supernatural being would be more than competent to deal with criticism and wouldn't need your help, let alone help that contradicts what you claim to believe and what you've been told explicitly to do. If you believe in God, and you take a Darwin Fish off of someone's car, how does showing yourself to be a small-minded bully and hypocrite with a penchant for vandalism help the cause of God, your religion, or yourself?
Another problem: if you can't even deal with the criticism of a Darwin Fish (which really only criticizes biblical literalism and its jerry-rigged conflict with science), how would you actually deal with the treatment that Christians endured in the past (and if your reading of Revelations is accurate, will endure in the future)?
I am surprised that Goldberg didn't go further and attack the UFO fish people. I have seen many, many permutations of the fish symbol and the Darwin fish is probably the least-offensive in the bunch.
The ones I find truly offensive, however, are the ones with the word "TRUTH" in the body of a fish that is eating a smaller Darwin fish. In fact, the first time I saw one I almost drove off the road for laughing so hard.
"Well if you think that's offensive, check this out!"
Seems I'm not the only one to have my Darwin fish attacked--though it was a half-holy attempt as the Perps for Christ managed only to snap off the tail.
The nth Commandment: You Shall break asunder your neighbors Darwin Fish in the name of your God.
An acquaintance of mine -- a postdoc in a Biology department, no less -- was instructed to take a Darwin fish poster off her office door, as it was ostensibly offensive to Christians.
What is really arrogant is the Jesus fish with the words "Truth" inside, and it is eating a Darwin fish. As if "Truth" is something simply revealed in an ancient book and taken for granted. As opposed to learning what truth is through observation and hypothesis testing, and peer review. Which is really more arrogant?
One more thing... PZ you should know that a fatwa is a generic term for a ruling on Islamic law issued by a cleric or scholar. While most of us in the West became familiar with the word when Ayatollah Khomeni issued his famous fatwa calling for the death of Rushdie, the word fatwa is not exclusive to such proclamations.
For example, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who has been the leader of Masjid al-Farah in New York City since 1983 (and is located quite close to the Twin Towers site that was attacked on 9/11) issued a fatwa that permitted Muslims in the United States to fight in the war with the Taliban and with Al Qaeda.
In short, there is nothing inherently evil or bad in fatwas. Now, beheadings, terrorism, riots, etc. are another story.
Anybody remember a televised debate on PBS way back about 10 years ago, at the dawn of the ID movement? It was before I was engaged in the culture war enough to know the participants, though I'm sure I'd recognize them now. (pretty sure Genie Scott was on the pro-science panel)
Anyway, I remember thinking at the time that the pro-science people caved to some pretty basic sophistry from the creos. Case in point: in defense of his equation of evolution and atheism, one of the creationists triumphantly produced a Darwin fish. And I thought at the time, dude, ever seen "Dog is my co-pilot"? I guess dog ownership should be equated with atheism, too.
I agree, Janine, this parting shot really made my head spin. So, what, Christianity is too 'nice' for criticism? It's ok to mock any wacky old faith we want as long as it isn't the one Jonah Goldberg believes in? What tripe. It's hard to imagine that even he is so out of touch that he doesn't realize that much of the so called 'new atheism' has actually been galvanized by frank criticism of Islam. Dawkins and Harris have been particularly vocal on the subject.
WANT!
*scratches head* Why does this guy think speaking truth to power on the cheap is a bad thing?
Speaking truth to power is good, right? And if it's on the cheap, so much the better.
Hey! I was looking for some way to "speak truth to power on the cheap."
Thanks, Jonah!
"That's the way this scumbag Goldberg operates. He equates everything liberal (or everything he doesn't like) as fascist (see his pathetic attempt at revisionist history, Liberal Fascism)."
Perhaps we should rename Godwin's Law in his (dis)honor.
I see several Darwin fish in the church parking lot-most Catholics are usually OK with evolution. I would like it better without the word Darwin-how about Tikaalik?
Another thing worth pointing out is that the Darwin fish didn't just come out of nowhere. The Jesus fish might not be terribly smug in itself, but it is often seen next to bumper stickers saying things like "In case of Rapture this vehicle will be unoccupied" or "Eternity: smoking or non-smoking?" I've always taken the Darwin fish to be a response to that kind of nonsense. The Jesus fish says "I'm better than you because I'm a Christian," and the Darwin fish says "No you're not."
Somehow I think the extra feet are so you can add them to Xtian fish, not replace Darwin fish feet that have been vandalized. Not that I approve of that, of course.
I too have the 'Science' fish on my car (the one with rocket fins). However, I also have one of a christian fish being mounted and f**ked by a fish with feet and the word 'Evolution' inside of it. I even saw another person driving around with one of those. I once had a fish ripped off of my car so the "mounted" fish was my response. When I ordered the replacment and noted that my last fish was ripped off, the good folks at EvolveFISH.com provided me with a free 'insurance policy'. Normally they cost $5 so that was cool. If either of my fish are vandalized I can contact them with the policy number and they'll send me a free replacement.
"EvolveFish.com - Defending your right to mock Teh Stoopid"
Posted on another thread but it belongs here.
So how often do Darwin Fishes get vandalized? Seems like pretty often.
Xians don't own the fish symbol. One of the triumphs of our ancestors was the conquest of the land by souped up fish.
Speaking of which, apparently some fundies hearing voices in their head, wander around looking for Darwin Fish to steal. A recent police report sent to me by a friend who lives in a non fundie city.
Almost worth it to stake out a Darwin Fish car with a camera and video recorder to catch some of these fundie vandals.
Where will it end?
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
I've often wondered how our modern Bible-thumpers are able to reconcile this teaching with all of their sanctimonious displays.
Oh, right, they don't really care what Jesus said. Just put a sticker on your care and you're Saved.
"Somehow I think the extra feet are so you can add them to Xtian fish, not replace Darwin fish feet that have been vandalized."
Would it be vandalism to add accessories to Xian fish? And how long do you think it would take for car owners to notice? I'm now having visions of wandering through a church parking lot on a prayer meeting evening.
No person has the right to not be offended.
Just to voice the other side of the story: I drive around with the back end of my car decorated with a big red A, my T-rex eating a fish, bumper stickers protesting Bush and the war, and others advocating evolution education...and I often get people honking their horns at me and giving me a thumbs-up sign as they pass me.
They're probably looking at your cute wife PZ. Get over yourself.
We have the fossils, we win!
Well, I'm generally against vandalism, but I do wish someone made harmless little magnetic Darwin fish feet so I could help a few ICTHYS evolve.
I may have to get the T-Rex fish. It would look great next to the Cthulhu-fish that currently adorns my bumper (If I'm gonna worship an imaginary supreme being then by gum he's gonna be a scary one). I did get a kick out of the perplexed looks it received last time I took the car to the wash. Thankfully I haven't been vandalized. I also have visions of adding darwin -feet to the Xian fish but those feet are so pricey for widespread use...
I've got a T. rex eating a Christian fish.
But I thought they ate fruits and nuts ...
The important question is who the heck is Jonah Goldberg? ;^)
"I've got a T. rex eating a Christian fish.
But I thought they ate fruits and nuts ..."
...er, as did lions, tigers, sharks and, dare I say it, cephalopods, before the fall. Watching the creationist museum tour was like watching Calvin's Dad describe how the world used to be black and white...
OT:
So, biblically speaking, did Adam have nipples and a reproductive organ before god created woman to be his companion? I think some of those paintings may be a little off...I just can't think of an "intelligent designer" version of why men have nipples, especially before women and babies were invented...
"...I just can't think of an "intelligent designer" version of why men have nipples,..."
Two words: Hot Wax.
Going to high school in Kansas I made sure my first car had its appropriate Evolve fish on the trunk. It never got torn off. However, I did get some rude remarks about my bumper sticker stating that "God is too big to fit in one religion." I suppose my message of tolerance failed -_-.
Except, you know, for the fact that it's a blanket statement of conduct given by a religious know-nothing to whom you've surrendered all your cognitive abilities.
Letting other people decide what your opinions are and how you should act is one of the greatest evils of all. At least in my book. The Book of Stogoe, that's the book for me.
I don't currently own a car, but I drew a Darwin fish on my MetroCard. Anyways, my mockery is aimed squarely at cetaceans.
In your face, footiless things! No, that's a "fin". Nice try.
::::running through the room::::
"We're more evolved! We're more evolved!
We're more complex! Irreduci- oh, hey... waitaminute...
So what did sharks eat before teh fall?
If I may borrow Jonah's Hat of Mind Reading for a moment, I shall try to divine the true message encoded in the text. Thank you, Jonah. Ah yes, I think I see the true message now. Is it that you shouldn't do that, you're the equivalent of an anti-Semite for doing that, and anyway you're doing it wrong; do it to the Muslims or GTFO? No, it's still hazy. Wait, I think I see it now. It looks a little like "In the true spirit of a meritocracy I get paid more than most people for sitting on my tubby ass flaming political adversaries for car emblems, and other intellectual bankruptcy." Well that can't be it. I guess this hat doesn't work. That explains how Jonah came to conflate racism with the promotion of scientific literacy.
Belches Jonah Goldberg: the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence.
This coming from one of many chickenhawks who espouse the glories of fighting in Iraq but who do nothing to put themselves in harm's way.
On my PokerStars profile I have the Darwin Fish as my image. And I recently replaced the Darwin Fish on the back of my car with a FSM fish/symbol. After reading this idiot, it makes me more proud than ever to be associated with these images. Go Jonah, you douchebag!
The fact that the catalog that sells Darwin fish also sells replacement feet for the Darwin fish says it all.
Man, I wish I would've found those years ago. A friend of mine in college had a Jeebus fish on the back of her car (bought used) that would not come off without taking the paint with it.
The implication, of course, being that as an atheist there should be [negative] consequences.
Maybe Jonah was in Memphis for Turkey Day in 2006.
On the vehicles in our household we sport the T-Rex, the 'SCIENCE' rocket fish and the 'n chips along with a FSM decal. Those and others available here.
I don't have the bumper sticker, but I do have an Evolvefish necklace. I dread the day it'll be vandalized. :c
In the days of Copernicus, I am sure a "solar system" logo slapped on the back end of a horse would have also given these people offense. Some people can't handle reality.
Scote:
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html
There's a six-pack of spare feet on the page.
The only bumper sticker I have on my vehicle is a "I Love My CPA" (with the heart symbol for love). I'm married to a CPA...
Generally, I don't advertise my lack of superstition.
"Scote:
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html
There's a six-pack of spare feet on the page."
Score! My prayers have been answered. Thanks. Now if only I could find magnetic ones...
"A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."
... but a better analogy would be a plaque with 'stop circumcision' in a Star of David with one of its points clipped, which would *not* be an outrage. :)
If I could find a Darwin fish with an exposed middle finger, I'd have it on my car. As it is, my pirate fish is it.
Well, FINE, Jonah! Tell us what Islamic extremists put on the back of their cars, and we'll come up with a suitably snarky parody of it, m'kay?
--Raynfala
"I'm thinking: Mohammed in a lab coat..."
"Generally, I don't advertise my lack of superstition.
Posted by: TX CHL Instructor | April 1, 2008 4:22 PM"
This in spite of apparently being a hand gun instructor. Sad when being pro-science means even hand gun wielding Texans have to lay low, though I suppose discretion is the better part of self defense.
Did he wish Death to Darwinists?
"The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it."
Very unchristlike, methinks.
OK Mr. Goldberg, lets suppose you see a hungry person trying to pick a fruit that is out of reach by repeatedly and hopelessly jumping after this fruit. You go get a ladder, climb it and pick a fruit. You then offer the ladder to this person, and that person refuses, and continues with the futile jumping attempts. How the hell are you supposed to feel while you are eating your apple?
Slightly OT, I don't have a Darwin fish, but I do have a chrome Peace symbol (purchased from Evolvefish.com) and a bumper sticker from Pacifica Radio KPFT 90.1FM in Houston and a "Bring the Troops Home Now" yellow ribbon with peace signs.
This has gotten my car egged more than once when I lived in the Houston area. Now that I live in the DFW area, in Denton, I just get honked at sometimes.
However, I also have an NRA sticker, a Texas State Rifle Association sticker, and a Texas A&M Corps of Cadets Alumni Assn. sticker and TAMU license plates, so that probably confuses the heck out of some people (since, like me, not all Aggies are Republican asshats, just most of them; I'm what they call a "2%'er" in our alumni circles...)
Back in 2004, wearing a "Democrats" baseball cap got me flipped off by a lady in an SUV. I'm too pissed at the Dems to take heat for them anymore, though.
I'm sure if I put a Darwin fish on my car I'd catch similar heat/harassment, even in this college town.
I also have an white oval "Freidenker" (in black German Frakturschrift type) sticker on my car, but few people pick up on what it means. I also like my ΑΘΕΟΣ t-shirt, for similar reasons (only well-educated Christians will understand what it says).
I want a Darwin fish that says "Tiktaalik" inside.
JJR, I moved to Houston in 2000. At the time I had an "evolve fish" on my car. After having to replace it three times and after two eggings of my car, I finally took it off. I did not mind the fingers and honking, but the eggs were too much! No eggings since my car has been naked. Ah sweet Texas!
I seem to remember reading that the Christian fish symbol was itself was taken from an earlier pagan fertility symbol representing female genitalia (rotate 90 degrees).
I'm still waiting for the opportunity to point out to someone that they're driving around with a stylised vagina sticker on their car.
http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/pagan/origin_fish_symbol.htm
I personally like the following bumper sticker A LOT:
"Religious extremism: A problem abroad, a problem at home"
I've only seen it "in the field" once, and I really should get my own. It's about as succinct as a bumper sticker need be.
Of course Goldberg has no compunction about displaying his self-centrism and blinded context defiantly. Whatever he believes in is good, and anything else is bad. It's the comfortable mindset of those who think they're thinking, but really never do.
Jonah "Doughy Pantload" Goldberg likes to think he is clever and ironic when he is simply lame and obvious.
@89 what did sharks eat...
Very small rocks?
Well I do approve of it, I'm just too cheap to buy a set for my neighbor.
On another note, anyone have a IXNAY fish?
@105: How the hell are you supposed to feel?
Less hungry.
I apologize for the length of my comment, but this ignorant douchebag got me rolling.
So many flaws, I don't know where to begin.
His main idea is that sporting a darwin fish on your car in America is just as wrong and offensive as attempting to politically demote 1.5 billion people to subhuman status. The reader is supposed to believe that jokingly telling christians to "evolve" is on a par with restricting their immigration, forcing them into integration classes, and attacking their culture by lumping all of them in with the worst of them. Right.
Even his direct comparisons are way off the mark. I think he reads too much meaning into such silly symbols. Atheists borrowed a heavily used, commercialised symbol that millions of christians carelessly stick on everything. They put a humorous spin on it, and made it their own. Christians have been assimilating symbols and the entire cultures behind them for centuries(including the so-called "Jesus" fish itself)except generally without the sense of humour. He compares this simple symbol reversal to calling all Jews "usurers." Even if you grant him a partial point here on principle, questioning the ruling christian paradigm is hardly the same as taking another shot at an often abused minority. Such vicious abuse these christians suffer for their Lord and his plastic crap!
Goldberg never even really addresses the issue he started with. Is this movie a needed look at radical Islam, or just the work of a pinheaded racist who wants all the darkies out of the Netherlands? Maybe both? Don't bother asking; you'll get no opinion from Goldberg. Just some whining about a completely unrelated issue.
From the article:
"But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap."
I suggest a long look in the mirror, asshole. You were writing about a controversial film, but ended up bashing a powerless minority instead of offering any genuine insight.
One more from the article:
"It's not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics, but they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who are neither fanatical nor inclined to use violence.
The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it."
I am no fan of Islam. It is as bad now in some places as chrisitanity was just 3-4 centuries ago. Mr. Goldberg wants all of us to go after the "real villians," who are conveniently thousands of miles away, living in a culture that neither Goldberg nor our leaders care to investigate, understand, or help in any way that doesn't involve racism and genocide. To hell with confronting the idiots and theocrats in MY OWN COUNTRY, let's go get those evil muslims!
In Goldberg's clumsily veiled opinion, secular progressives are cowards because we try to balance our outrage with careful consideration. We are also apparently cowardly bullies because some of us make a little fun of the most powerful people in the world.
Once again, we are told to sit down and shut up in our own free country, and blamed for not having all the answers to the world's problems yet. As if Christians and Jews in the West have done anything other than enrich themselves off of the conflict and cause more problems.
It's funny. Muslims, Jews and Chrisitians are responsible for pretty much the entire middle east mess, and the rise of radical Islam. Yet secular progressives show the greatest desire to end these conflicts peacefully, for the benefit of all. Not that we'll get any credit if we do.
Brilliant!
Here in the UK Ichthus fish are quite rare - and I've never seen a Darwin fish, FSM, sushi fish or any other satire.
I'd suggest a giant squid, but it can be trumped with a sperm whale. The T. Rex motivation is that it is a top predator... and anything big enough to eat it couldn't fit on a car.
The traditional encomium for this monument to nepotism is "Doughy Pantload".
This post reminds that now that I have a new car I need a new Darwin fish for it.
The old car had one for several years along with assorted bumper stickers which made my position very clear. I never encountered any vandalism or even any comment, except for one young lady at the corner gas station who asked me where I had gotten it and gave me her email addy.
This being southern California, fundy asshats seem to be less of a problem than finding ways to meet girls.
"But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap."
Perhaps Mr. Goldberg would like to compare the Darwin Fish to this little E-mail that is being fowarded around right wing circles today;
Subject: Atheists Holiday
This is living proof that every moron in the world has a right to petition the court--and tie it up with foolishness.
Have you heard about this case?
Great answer from the judge!
In Florida , an atheist became incensed over the preparation of Easter and Passover holidays. He decided to contact his lawyer about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while atheists had no holiday to celebrate.
The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the long passionate presentation by the lawyer, the Judge banged his gavel and declared, 'Case
dismissed!'
The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, 'Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and many other observances. Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah... yet my client and all other atheists have no such holiday!'
The judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said, 'Obviously your client is too confused to even know about, much less celebrate his own atheists' holiday!'
The lawyer pompously said, 'Your Honor, we are unaware of any such holiday for atheists. Just when might that holiday be, your Honor?'
The judge said , 'Well it comes every year on exactly the same date, April 1st! Since our calendar sets April 1st as 'April Fools Day,' consider that Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, in my opinion, if your client says there is no God, then by scripture, he is a fool, and April 1st is his holiday! Now have a good day and get out of my courtroom!!
Way to go, Judge! AMEN
Ouch. Far too many fingers and toes.
Yes -- and bigger. :-)
When Hovind was arrested for not giving unto the emperor what was the emperor's, there was a comic somewhere online... Pharyngula linked to it... on a wall there was a "HOVIND" fish eating a "TRUTH" fish, and later an "IRS" fish eating a "HOVIND" fish. :-)
Hey, cool, a Ceratosaurus. :-)
"The T. Rex motivation is that it is a top predator... and anything big enough to eat it couldn't fit on a car."
Well, if we are going to be all sciencey and all, shouldn't we fix the upright stance the R-Rex Emblem has?
BTW, ΑΘΕΟΣ would make a great Darwin fish. Hopefully, it's already been done.
I don't think that "more evolved" is something that an evolutionist would say. And I don't see how you can compare Blacks or women with Christians. Usually you're not a Christian from birth. You opt to be so. Stupid guy.
I've never seen one in person. The whole phenomenon seems to be more or less restricted to the USA.
(Quelle surprise.)
In that case, you should (as mentioned) use a Spinosaurus in the first place.
And turn the fish into a supergiant lungfish. :-)
"T. Rex motivation is that it is a top predator... and anything big enough to eat it couldn't fit on a car."
But God could smite it. You'd have t have a big glowing hand pointing at the dino, I suppose.
Then perhaps have Morpheus standing off to the side saying "I am Hope."
Really? Don't you guys have Wal-Marts? There should be a plethora of them attached to the backs of oversized SUVs (for oversized asses) clogging the parking spaces nearest the door like atheromatous plaques in coronary arteries.
No? Maybe it is a North American phenomenon.
@JJR #106
Where'd you get that ΑΘΕΟΣ shirt? I want!
"Really? Don't you guys have Wal-Marts?"
No, we have something even more sinister
PZ, shouldn't yours be a giant squid eating an entire school of fish?
windy, I was really afraid that link was to Rick Astley, but that's much worse.
More good reasons to get a Darwin fish!
I don't own a car and almost certainly never will... but just in case, would a "Fuck Christianity" sticker be considered offensive?
windy, I was really afraid that link was to Rick Astley, but that's much worse.
What's up with all the Astley-hatin', Carlie?
After all, it's not like he'd ever give you up, let you down, or run around and desert you...
Geez, did he have to take special treatments to get skin that thin, or is it genetic?
Posted by: Eamon Knight | April 1, 2008 2:17 PM
God made him that way. I think HE(1) was playing an April fools joke on us. HE is an insufferable bastard (2) that way. God I mean.
1. It is a proven fact that God has a penis and on the day of judgment, athiestoliberalfascistjihadadarwinists will all be screwed by IT. Especially you PJ! TWICE!!
2. See also Golberg, Jonah
whoops, looks like I've forgotten how to blockquote--that first sentence I was responding to was Carlie's.
windy, I was really afraid that link was to Rick Astley, but that's much worse.
If that's even humanly possible? Incidentally, I find this tut-tutting of the same shop sign offensive. Will Goldberg not take a stance for our cherished symbol?
I had something similar happen to me. I'll really date myself when I list the three bumper stickers on my car at the time: One Nuclear Bomb Can Ruin Your Whole Day (with Protect Your Local Planet in a small circle to the side), ERA YES! and The Moral Majority Is Neither.
Someone tore off the ERA and Moral Majority stickers. Then they smashed my back window, where the stickers had been. And they dropped the wadded up stickers onto the back dash area, amidst the shattered glass. The cops were NOT sympathetic. Although one of them did ask me out--and I told him I didn't believe in breeding with lesser primates.
Anyway, there's yet another example of Christian tolerance, at its finest. And that was a smallish city in East Texas. At the mall, no less!
I've never put bumper stickers on my car again, and I left that hellhole as soon as I got the chance. I visited some family there three times after that, but decided after the last visit, in 1996, that I would NEVER EVER go back. I haven't. I won't.
When my mother moved back up there a few years ago, I told her it was nice knowing her. She thinks I'm kidding. I'm not. I won't go back. Not even for her.
@ Jonathon, #62- while there may be nothing inherently evil about a fatwa, the idea that one needs to look to a religious spokesperson for ethics or permission for an action is anathema.
Since YEC's believe in a 6000 year old earth, there could be a series of bumper stickers of various top predators of the different periods and epochs devouring Christian fish: Anomalocaris, Dinichthys, Dimetrodon, Protosuchus, Allosaurus, Tarbosaurus, Smilodon, Neanderthal (my personal favorite), etc. On days like today, after attending a seminar and patiently listing to Christian sophistry disguised as educational values in debating controversies, I feel more like a sticker with a fish attended to by Teratornis. But I might be projecting too much.
So in case it comes up on the SATs:
Judaism::Usury as Christianity::Darwin.
The real question here is: How do Drivelists like Goldberg stay employed?
One problem I have with all these fish'n'things - a minor problem, I admit - is their tendency to promote the appearance that a Cult of Personality indeed exists around Charles Darwin and is the essense of belief in evolution, or to promote a false equivalence between evolution and atheism. My favorite is the fish outline with the feet, free of any text that might impose another layer of unnecessary meaning on the simple fact of evolution itself.
But I suppose that the use of the Ichthus fish at all is itself a provocative gesture...
Am I talking about the F-word now? Oops. I'll stop. :-)
On thing I find ironic (yet unsurprising) about the modern-day popularity of the Ichthys is that the original symbol was a secret code by which early Christians (who actually were persecuted) could make themselves known to one another. We know how seductive that "persecuted minority" mindset is these days...
windy, I was really afraid that link was to Rick Astley, but that's much worse.
Posted by: Carlie
Hey Carlie, here is your cure for Rick Astley.
He had a great big hit and it was gastly. Just so you know, this person is my Jesus. Isn't that cool?
The story in #119 about April Fool's Day being the religious holiday for atheists is discussed at Snopes.com. The article traces the evolution of an anti-atheist joke into a full-fledged urban legend about a judge berating a nonbeliever. The closing prayer that we need more judges like the alleged jurist in the fable makes it clear that it's just spicy reading for folks who dream of theocracy. I'm surprised that no one in my family has forwarded it to me yet. It's just their style. [Link]
After starting a job in the Bible Belt, and being told numerous times that I "really need to understand that this is a very conservative town", I slapped "I ♥ Evolution", "Marriage Is So Gay", and "Feminist" (along with Flaming Lips, Radiohead, and The Cure) stickers all over the back of my car. I'm still waiting to be vandalized, but I've been lucky so far.
I did have a friend who had her tires slashed and homophobic notes left on her car, presumably for sporting a Smith's sticker. You never know what's going to set people off.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=147884&title=jona…
Man, what a train wreck.
I see plenty of them. I managed to convince myself they were everywhere, which is possibly a bit of an exaggeration, but they're out there.
Seen maybe 1 or 2 Darwin fish. Ever.
Personally, I don't like to adorn my car with crap. I like the way my car looks, and feel no need to ensure that my fellow drivers are supplied with reading material when we're stuck in traffic.
Well, the Darwin fish is a direct parody of the ichthys symbol, so I can see how Christians would take offense. But it goes both ways.
*sigh*
why DO you people let these idiots get away with this shit?
99% of Xians are too ignorant to even know the history of the symbol THEY STOLE from pagan religions that came before them.
know your history, people:
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsvesica.htm
Not just that; I bet that slapping a solar system sticker on Jonah Goldberg would be considered offensive to wingnuts even today. :P
Well, the Darwin fish is a direct parody of the ichthys symbol, so I can see how Christians would take offense. But it goes both ways.
*sigh*
why DO you people let these idiots get away with this shit?
99% of Xians are too ignorant to even know the history of the symbol THEY STOLE from pagan religions that came before them.
know your history, people:
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsvesica.htm
also associated with ancient celtic religions in a similar fashion.
It was "co-opted" by the early xians, much like many pagan holidays were. there is really nothing sacred about it to a xian, actually.
to see them feeling "insulted" by mocking the symbol is like seeing someone "insulted" by mocking the mascot of the Kansas City Chiefs. it's patently ridiculous, and just further goes to show their ignorance of the history of their own damn religion.
(forgot to close the blockquote)
another symbol stolen from earlier popular pagan religions; the Catholic Bishop mitre is a dead ringer for the hat priests of Dagon used to wear.
(all hail Dagon)
I rather like the Darwin Fish variations, which remind me of the take-offs of the ubiquitous "Jesus Saves" (My admittedly biased favorite being the progression of:
Jesus Saves!
Moses Invests!
But only the Buddha pays dividends.)
My favorite D-fish is of the still-flopping Jeebus fish being served up as living sashimi for a pair of lovely bodhisattvas with their chopsticks ready.
***
"Cleave a stick of wood and He is there!"
"He's on the menu, on the table; he's the knife and he's the waiter."
Fish!!! Fiiiiiish!!!!!!
Here's Chris clarke/Clarke's alternative design, for the real evolution aficianado.
Fish!!! Fiiiiiish!!!!!!
yes, brother!
scream from under the water!
embrace your inner fish!
(all hail Dagon)
...of course I meant aficionado.
Or was it afishionado?
Aaaaa! It's just that I've never actually been rickrolled until today, and then it happened multiple times in a row.
I do like this version, though.
Just a few days ago, I happened to be behind a person with a bumper sticker that read "What part of 'Thou shalt not kill' don't you understand?" - God.
Right next to this was an NRA sticker (National Rifle Association, for the uninitiated). I found that amusing.
I have a similar ironic vehicle in my area - it is a wannabe monster truck. On one side of its tailgate, there is a Jesus fish, on the other side, a bumper sticker showing a set of crosshairs with a human figure being targeted, with the caption "This is MY Peace Sign"...
Nice...
Or was it afishionado?
Dagon knows you love him, and worship all things fishy.
deny it all you want. Dagon knows.
(I've already put in a notice to get you moved up in line for when Cthulhu comes to put the smackdown on ya all)
cheers!
And may you be the first to be devoured!
*bows*
thankyou!
also to you and yours.
Kseniya:
Jonah Goldberg is the empty-headed poster child for wingnut welfare.
btw, if you really wanna have some fun with xians who have the xian fish logo on their bumpers, ask them why they have a symbol for fertility on their bumper.
(or, if feeling even more confrontational, why not just say what it IS an actual representation of originally, and then ask them why they have it on their car)
First, there's the smugness.
Doughy Pantload conveniently neglects to note that it is categorically impossible to threaten someone with eternal hellfire in a non-smug way.
if you really wanna have some fun with xians who have the xian fish logo on their bumpers, ask them why they have a symbol for fertility on their bumper.
Or make another bumper sticker with a picture of the Xtian fish saying "Linga and Yoni Unite!"
Doughy Pantload
LOL
Charlie,
A quiet rickrolling is a thing to be appreciated indeed.
I wonder where that fish has gone
You did love it so
You loved it like a son
And it went wherever I did go
Is it in the cupboard?
Wouldn't you like to know
It was a lovely little fish
And it went wherever I did go
Oh, fishy fishy fishy fish...
Or make another bumper sticker with a picture of the Xtian fish saying "Linga and Yoni Unite!"
I've always found it interesting how the religio-mythology of different cultures can generate opposite conclusions as to the source of ultimate fertility.
the celts and many early European cultures worshiped the female as the ultimate source of fertility
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefssheela.htm
while others like those found in India directed it more towards a paternal line:
Shiva's linga is the divine phallus, the source of the soul-seed which contains within it the essence of the entire cosmos.
both had balancing influences, of course, but I wonder if it has any causal effects on the misogyny levels found in the societies that came later.
any anthropologists in the house?
Oh, fishy fishy fishy fish...
but when are they going to get around to talking about the meaning of life?
well, let's not overplay the fact that the fish symbol was originally something else: we don't ask why PZ has a picture of a red ox in the sidebar :)
But yeah, the fertility angle can certainly be used to good effect. But if Christians don't mind revering an instrument of torture, the ichthus is small fry...
It's funny that people who stick a Christian fish symbol on their cars don't see how smug that is. "Nyah, nyah, I'm going to heaven and you're not!"
As the creator of the Darwin fish I have to laugh at articles like this because all they seem to do is sell more Darwin fish. The original intent was not a slap in the face to religion. It was a way of advertising the belief in evolution verse creationism. I have found the incredible number of spinoffs though to be typical America. If one is good, 30 is better. I'm not annoyed by them but it does seem to be a bit ridicules. I think at last count there were 36 different spin-offs of the original Darwin fish. So in that way I could see the original religious fish symbol being a bit slighted, just by the sheer number of silly parodies.
The only variation that I have done is one that is on my car. Instead of Darwin, it says "creator" That really makes people scratch their heads. I can't tell you the number of people who have told me they have had their Darwin's vandalized. I try to keep some in my glove box and if I see an old tired one or a broken one, I put a new one on the driver's window sill for the person to find when they come back to their car.
C. Gilman
Merely asserting that a Darwin-fish is not bigotry does not make it so. "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance" You'd be arguably correct that being intolerant of bad science is a good thing, but arguing that intolerance of bad science is not intolerance is insipid.
You have failed to show that the use of Darwin Fish qualifies as bigotry.
Anyone going to see Expelled should check out Ray Troll's Web site for suitable garb.
Ray's art. If you follow the links "Buy Stuff" > "Clothing" > "Adult T Shirt" you will eventually get to gems such as "Love your Inner Fish, "Data in the Strata, "It's Never too Late to Mutate," and lots of fish pictures.
And while you're wearing it, your shirt is not alone and helpless.
So, Jonah, following this (tortured) logic, in your next column, you tell how offended you are by the Rebel flag, right?
the ichthus is small fry...
heh.
Merely asserting that a Darwin-fish is not bigotry does not make it so.
how about if I assert my Darwin Fish is just a symbol representing the transition between fish and amphibia?
I haven't asserted that it is not bigotry, and yet it obviously isn't.
figure that one out.
I try to keep some in my glove box and if I see an old tired one or a broken one, I put a new one on the driver's window sill for the person to find when they come back to their car.
keep up the fight, Gilman.
However, surely by now you DO realize that when you say this:
It was a way of advertising the belief in evolution verse creationism.
you essentially will be pissing off all the right people, who will indeed take that as a slap in the "literal" face.
PZ's hubristic T. Rex bumper sticker has blown his Crypto-Creationist cover!
As he well knows, Tyrannosaurs were vegetarian until Sin happened. So any depiction of a T. Rex trying to sink its former coconut incisors into our finny friends is a ringing endorsement of the coexistence of dinosaurs and man.
Three comments:
First, fuck all of them. I can't count the number of times I've had to sit behind some jackass who feels the need to force his religion on me from a position where I cant' respond: His bumper. I'm tired of the bullshit meme of the poor persecuted Christian in America coming from the fact that we won't let them just do what they want to the rest of us. You want persecution? Move to freaking Saudi Arabia.
I don't want your religion. I don't need your religion and I don't want to know your religion. I don't freaking care whether you bow and scrape to Allah or you kiss the backside of Satan. That is your business. These Ichthys bumper plaques say to me is: "I'm a Christian, therefore I am better than you because i'm in the Cool Club."
Secondly, if these people were REAL Christians then they wouldn't be putting plaques on their car. If they bothered to read their bibles they'd see that Matthew 6:6 says that expressions of faiths should be made in private.
Lastly, one person's freedom of expression does not trump another's. So these guys can bitch about Darwin plaques or Wicca pentacles or what have you all they want their opinions are their own and they mean dick. But telling me that my right to put a T-Rex eating an Ichthys on my car should be outlawed because I'm somehow offending is as ridiculous as me telling you not to put the damned Ichthys on your car because it offends me. And it does. You want me to take mine off? Take yours off first. Then take the cross off your neck and the little jesus icons and mugs off your desk at work. Either we all have freedom of expression, or nobody does.
I'm totally amazed. It never occurred to me that these silly little things are controversial.
Didn't know the origin of the fish either, and it does look a little yoni-ish if you stand it on end. We just had a lot of fun photoshopping it onto the vagina monologues poster. That looks like something to worship!
I had two Darwin fish stolen within days of putting them on. I took a sharpie and wrote "Thou Shalt Not Steal" just above the third one. So far, so good.
Coconut/T Rex - WANT!
ANYONE who adornes their vehicle with ANY bumper sticker or similar items is an IDIOT and should be NEUTERED.
See? It's comments like that that make people think there's a link between Hitler and Evolutionists.
A culture where bumper stickers flourish is one where people are becoming more and more opiniated, so convinced and proud of their own entrenched positions that they see fit to shove it up the face of the anonymous driver following them...
For me, this illustrates all the opposite of a culture which cultivates tolerance and dialogue.
#182-You sure don't sound like the Jack Johnston who writes all those mellow love songs...oh, wait, that's Jack Johnson-you're just a douchebag.
The only time I really question the intelligence of a person based on a bumper sticker is when I see ones that say "Is it 4:20 yet?" or "Bad cop, no donut." Not that I think they are wrong; but they might soon find out that law enforcement careers tend to attract a few more self-righteous, authoritarian hippie-haters than most other jobs. Aside from politics, of course.
#184-Interesting theory, but I have a question. What is a free society for if you can't be open and honest? While I get your point that a bumper sticker is a declaration, not a conversation, I could say the same about every sign, banner, or flag I see everyday. I wonder what everyone would talk about if nobody had strong opinions. The weather?
My favorite inflammatory bumper sticker isn't even on a car-my better half applied it to the five foot tall "bongzilla" that lives in our closet between special occasions. It reads:
"Sorry I missed church, I've been busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."
Neil,
"While I get your point that a bumper sticker is a declaration, not a conversation, I could say the same about every sign, banner, or flag I see everyday."
The difference is that with a bumper sticker, you are certain not to have a conversation (unless the one driving behind you bumps behind of course).
There's nothing wrong with being passionate about one's opinions, but I do think it is wrong to say, "this is what I think, and I'm so proud of it that I feel the need to shove it up your face and be sure you can't reply".
Anyway, it's not really that important. It's more illustrative of a certain type of culture, a sign of where a certain part of America is heading towards...
Neil said:
"Sorry I missed church, I've been busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."
LOL - Want!!!
No time to read through the whole pot this morning, so apologies for repeating anything previously said.
Two things. NOTHING could be more smug than the jesus fish.
Second. I've got a friend who teaches at a local christian college. He's had his darwin fish torn off his car three times. Know anyone who's had similar done to their jesus fish? Thought not.
I love how homeboy thinks that "evilutionists" believe that Sarcopterygians are "more evolved" than Teleosts... whatta clown. He probably also believes that non-belief is a Trojan Horse to sneak Wahabism into the U.S.
Keep in mind that this knucklehead rails against affirmative action when his main claim to fame is being the wretched product of Lucianne Goldberg's fetid womb.
In the days of Copernicus, I am sure a "solar system" logo slapped on the back end of a horse would have also given these people offense.
I'm sure it would annoy the horse, too.
What are you talking about? Horses are very strongly in support of science!
I've had a Darwin fish on my various cars in Shreveport LA, Waco TX, Norman OK, and now in a tiny town in southern Indiana. Aside from a few cretinist or Chick tracts under my wiper blade, I've had no direct adverse reaction to them.
As for the people who believe that we "stole" the fish from Christianity -- how ironic, coming from a religion that stole its* every concept from other sources.
*note to grammar nazis: I got it right!
Cortx: Well done. You've avoided the baleful eye of the Apostrophe Police - this time.
Yes, but we've shown repeatedly that a horse's ass often isn't, and that's where the logo would be placed.
Or was it afishionado?
I realized only on the way home that what I really meant was "a fish taco" (washed down with a Dogfish IPA).
Fish worship: is it wrong?
Cortx: Norman doesn't really count as Oklahoma. Try parking your darwin-fish-adorned Subaru in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Ponca City or Tahlequah, or even Stillwater, and see how long it lasts.
My philosophy on car-art is to make the symbolism as esoteric as possible, so that only the elite few know what it's even supposed to mean. I have one of the more obscure bits of Grateful Dead iconography, a prismatic mylar American flag that's more psychedelic than red, white & blue, and a recycling symbol sans words.
If that's smug, I'm smug.
The car decoration I REALLY want, but can't have as I'm right in the Atlanta hole of the bible belt, is one of those "Calvin pissing" stickers onto one of those stupid jeebus-fish. Somewhere in my picture directories on my other computer I have a picture of a guy who did exactly that... I was shocked - not at the window, but that he still HAD a window.
Sven:
What would that be? The flag you mentioned? Or something else? Inquiring minds want to know. :-)
Re: #195
True, Norman, home of the University of Oklahoma, is a blue oasis in a red desert, but I did have to venture out into that wilderness on occasion. "Danger Seekers!"
Kseniya and other inquiring/deadheaded minds:
Terrapin!
Ah! Turtles, all the way down!
I had one of those Darwin Fish eating a Xtian Fish plaques on my car and, during a local street festival, it got stolen. Annoyed the piss out of me at the time, seeing as I one of my neighbors had a Xtian fish eating a Darwin Fish (with TRUTH written on the Xtian fish) and his hadn't been touched.
Story of my life.
Negentropyeater-
I think I get your point, but it's always been thus. I could borrow a little from Goldberg and say it's identity politics on the micro scale, and maybe it's a good thing if you value personal independence over a false sense of social cohesion. I think you are way overboard on how isolating such messages are. While it does speak to a certainty in opinions (not necessarily a good thing) I don't think anything has really changed. People have always been obstinate and close-minded. Perhaps more people are honest about it now, but I don't see that as indicative of anything except a culture becoming more open. Assuming you do see a message in the white noise, what might that message be, aside from vague ideas about where America is heading? Just curious. It's always been a shouting match here.
One thing-as far as political and religious messages go, they have gotten more smug and even confrontational. I have mixed feelings on this. It's annoying, to be sure, but you know who you're dealing with. I'm really not much of a bumper sticker person myself, simply because I don't always want everyone around to think they can make opinions about me based on my rear bumper.
About ten years ago, I saw a couple of hard-right stickers that claimed that the only thing liberals were good for is target practice. In response, I was going to make my own sticker that said "Make the world a better place, shoot Republicans in the face!" Maybe with a peace sign shaped crosshair in the middle.
But I didn't. Why? Because I'm not a piece of shit limp-dick republican who feels the honest need to make death threats from my bumper. But there are plenty of murderous, ignorant conservatives in America. If they want to tag themselves, fine by me. It's more pathetic than scary, and you know immediately how to piss off such a crybaby if you want to. Just flash them "peace" as you pass!
IMO, this is a great response to that article. I read it yesterday and it left me scratching my head.
In college, I had one of the Darwin Fish for my car. I put magnets on it so I could remove it from my car whenever I wanted. It was mostly so my parents wouldn't see it. It was never stolen or vandalized, but this was 15 years ago. The people in my home town probably didn't get it.
I dated a woman who had this weird wicca fish thing on her bumper. It had feet and a fishing rod and dangling from it was an Ichthys and a Darwin fish. Some asshole ripped it in half trying to get it off.
That would be vandalism of private property and personally I'd like to see people start getting arrested for that shit.
Fish worship: is it wrong?
I think you already know the answer to that.
Dagon says, if not, you'd better learn.
fast.
;)
I don't have any Darwin fish, I would get the Rocket Science one....
I do have 3 bumper stickers (from the FFRF), they are taped to the inside of the back windows, so if someone is offended by them, they'll have to really work to get at them.
Driver's side: Keep the Church and State Forever Separate - Ulysses S. Grant
Back: Faith is Believing in What You Know Ain't So - Mark Twain
Passenger side: Nothing Fails Like Prayer
I've gotten some dirty looks, but no one came right out and said anything to me about them, and I've gotten quite a few laughs and thumbs up (here in Dumbfuckistan, Kansas, no less!).
Cheers.
I do have 3 bumper stickers (from the FFRF), they are taped to the inside of the back windows, so if someone is offended by them, they'll have to really work to get at them.
or just toss a rock at your window?
frankly, I think I'd rather risk the stickers on the bumper.
Well, that's the point Ichtyic, they have to really commit if they want to do anything about it.
I'm insured. =) And something like that wouldn't make my rates go up.
And something like that wouldn't make my rates go up.
ah, that was my next question.
:p
The only ichthys-derivative I can recall seeing in the flesh is the Cthulhu-fish my brother gave me, which adorns my fridge. Bumper stickers of any kind are rare here (Sweden).
Here is the response I made on another blog about the same article:
JackC said:
Why? I have fired various kinds of firearms many times, and have never killed anything with them at all.
Ouch. Far too many fingers and toes.
Yes -- and bigger. :-)
When Hovind was arrested for not giving unto the emperor what was the emperor's, there was a comic somewhere online... Pharyngula linked to it... on a wall there was a "HOVIND" fish eating a "TRUTH" fish, and later an "IRS" fish eating a "HOVIND" fish. :-)
Hey, cool, a Ceratosaurus. :-)
I've never seen one in person. The whole phenomenon seems to be more or less restricted to the USA.
(Quelle surprise.)
In that case, you should (as mentioned) use a Spinosaurus in the first place.
And turn the fish into a supergiant lungfish. :-)