Two almosts

Was that generic in the Aristotelean sense, or generic in the genetic sense, or just plain generic?

Oh I get it, it's generic in the geriatric sense. :)

I just *knew* you were behind the bridge collapse. Bad, bad scientist!

Panda's Thumb links to an article in Forbes by Benny. He talks about how to ruin America. The last point,

"12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable."

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1223/225_print.html

Who would have thunk it, three right wing crazies lying or making shit up, again.

@#4 bernarda --

Panda's Thumb links to an article in Forbes by Benny. He talks about how to ruin America. The last point,

"12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable."

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1223/225_print.html

Wow. That's...both hilarious and depressing. And just reinforces my suspicion that Stein knows exactly what a load of shit ID is, what a load of shit "equal time" is, etc, but only really cares about the opportunity to make a quick buck and get the automatic adoration of a large subsegment of the population (religious right).

@bernarda: From the tone of the article one might assume he was issuing a warning about what could or was happening. However, I didn't realise that this was actually his own plan to destroy the US starting with his promotion of Point 12.

Ah, the Coulter-Steins--The ideal couple for putting paid to eugenics- let's raise a dowry Ben cannot refuse, and stomp out to attend Expelled in numbers so Oscar worthy that Anne will swoon at the thought of tying the knot.

Surely God wants it so--
http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2008/05/evo-devo-at-the.html

This movie is the best thing that ever happened for our cause. Imagine how much more difficult it would have been to confront a more balanced approach to the issue (assuming they could have come up with one....). The biggest mistake that Ben made when doing this movie (or the producer) is tying ID to the KJV Bible. It is clear from Stein's interviews (I have only seen snippets of the actual film) that this whole exercise was nothing more than an attempt to replace science with THEIR god.

This has proved a disastrous strategy for them in the past. The idea that they would, post Dover, be so sloppy, seems to negate any 'intelligent design' in their organization.

Enjoy.

As much as I like the theory, Russell, the thought of either of them reproducing is just icky. Indeed, just doing things that might lead to reproduction is not something I want to associate them with.

It's not like this is exactly news, either; I heard about it from at least three sciencebloggers AND rationalwiki.

Ben Stein wrote "Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable."

This stunned me as well, till I read it over again. Stein's target doesn't seem to be anti-science advocates as such. He's upset over why they want to change science -- to accomodate ethnic minorities, and be "sensitive" to their feelings.

Christians are the majority. They don't have voodoo and fables. They just want REAL science taught in the classrooms.

Of course, he's still incredibly hypocritical any way you look at it -- playing the very victim card he pretends to despise.

Two more almosts - I flew over northern Minnesota twice last week on my way to Brtiish Columbia and back, and thanks to the little LCD "live" route map on the back of the next seat, I knew when I was almost flying over Morris, MN and the Myers household.

Ben Stein's flick isn't doing very well. Forgive me if I toot my own horn here, but I think I'm the first to blog this news: Expelled -- Dropped by Hundreds of Theaters.

@#11 Sastra --

This stunned me as well, till I read it over again. Stein's target doesn't seem to be anti-science advocates as such. He's upset over why they want to change science -- to accomodate ethnic minorities, and be "sensitive" to their feelings.

Christians are the majority. They don't have voodoo and fables. They just want REAL science taught in the classrooms.

This was my initial thought, but then there's this part at the beginning of the statement:

Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism

(Emphasis mine)

...so I just don't know anymore.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1223/225_print.html
Ben Stein:

1) Allow schools to fall into useless decay. Do not teach civics or history except to describe America as a hopelessly fascistic, reactionary pit. Do not expect students to know the basics of mathematics, chemistry and physics. Working closely with the teachers' unions, make sure that you dumb down standards so that children who make the most minimal effort still get by with flying colors. Destroy the knowledge base on which all of mankind's scientific progress has been built by guaranteeing that such learning is confined to only a few, and spread ignorance and complacency among the many. Watch America lose its scientific and competitive edge to other nations that make a comprehensive knowledge base a rule of the society.
...
3) Create a culture that blames the other guy for everything and discourages any form of individual self-restraint or self-control...
6) While you're at it, discourage respect for law in every possible way.
...
7) Encourage a mass culture that spits on intelligence and study and instead elevates ... contempt for school.
...
12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable.

"Academic freedom..."
"Science leads you to killing people"
"It doesn't matter what courts say..."
"There's more nonsense spoken at Universities..."
"Intelligent design..."

Couple that with "the collapse of Bear Stearns was a conspiracy of traders" and clearly Ben is working to "Ruin American Enterprise". There must be a worldwide conspiracy of Steins, one man couldn't come up with stuff like that on his own.

There have been a number of attacks on Stein, ID and Expelled on prime time TV this week.

Couple that with "the collapse of Bear Stearns was a conspiracy of traders" and clearly Ben is working to "Ruin American Enterprise".

And last Summer, Stein was encouraging people to invest in companies like Bear Stearns. I personally heard him do so on one of those financial talking-heads shows.

Had you taken Stein's advice and run with it, you would have bought Bear-Stearns, Citigroup etc. on margin!

The guy is a true polyhack!

Straying off topic here a little bit: Anyone catch how the star tribune is "Ultra liberal" LMAO!
On topic, I don't think Ben's flick was covered enough. "Last time my people saw a scientist . . ." It's amazing how the blabbering creationists go off about the horrors of science when science has given so much to them. If everyone with a rational mind just left the US, I'd give it 10 years before it'd turn up being a theocratic third world country.

I think Sastra is correct. Right wing ideologues do not view themselves as connected to mysticism, tribalism, or shamanism. And I don't think Stein considers himself to be a fundamentalist. But it's the disconnect from reality, from history, that you're seeing.
It's always the "other" that is the problem. For them, Christianity and Judaism have no relation to tribalism or to mysticism. Voodoo is mysticism, rising from the dead, global floods and a triune god is civilized and common sense science. And the fundamentalism they're talking about is the kind that Atheists (I know) and Muslims do. Like "removing" prayer from school, teaching "fables" like evolution and killing innocent Christians.
Remember, evidence means nothing to them. They know the truth already. Anything that challenges that truth is wrong automatically.

People are still paying attention to Ann Coulter? I had no idea.

I realize this is OT, but that KO clip was the first I'd heard of Franken's tax kerfuffle. For those of you in Minnesota, how does this seem to be affecting the campaign. Is it going to be a big deal? Should it be? Enquiring minds want to know!

I just wish, Obermann would have you as a guest on one of his clips. It would be so refreshing to have someone who actually understands the meaning of the rant (i.e., the science) behind the rant.

Recently, Obermann has hosted Richard Lewis, who is so full of ADD or ADHD or borderline schizophrenia, he is too painful to follow and, therefore, some of what he says actually is lost because it is disjointed, repetitious, incoherent.

Lewis Black is at least coherent in his "rants" than Richard Lewis. Have never seen him on Obermann. Alas, he does not have the scientific background you have.

I am sure you could deliver the message within your "rant" much more effectively than either of those two comedians.

Squiddom --- your calling awaits you.

LeeLeeOne

PS Deadpan - more effective than in-your-face.

Why don't we just Buy Ben Stein. He's for sale to the highest bidder so let's contact his agent see what it would cost for him to betray his new friends.

@#23 tsig --

Why don't we just Buy Ben Stein. He's for sale to the highest bidder so let's contact his agent see what it would cost for him to betray his new friends.

Let's not. It seems like he's a discredit to whatever cause he joins. If we bought him, he'd probably go on talk shows talking about the genetics of thermodynamics and how it proves that the big bang happened or some crap like that.

Ben Stein has friends? Just goes to show that there;s someone for everyone, I suppose.

As much of a GE corporate shill as Olbermann has turned into over the last several months, I'd be happy to have gotten off as a generic scientist. I don't trust him any more than I trust Benstein at this point.

I've thought that in order to stay relevant, Keith Olbermann's "Worst Person" segment needs to retire Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly, or they'd be Worst Person EVERY week.

Etha #6,

but [Ben Stein] only really cares about the opportunity to make a quick buck and get the automatic adoration of a large subsegment of the population

you are most probably correct, but I'd like to be a bit cynical, why should he care about intellectual honesty if he can make more money and get more admirers this way and this is what he sees as the meanning of his life ? NB He wouldn't be the first one in that situation in America. Remember, there's nobody judging above is there ?

What strikes me with Ben Stein is that he is just the perfect opportunist. He has always exploited the system. Wherever it takes him, in a sense, he's a bit like a magician or a snake oil sales man, he had to change carreer many many times.

Anyway, he's rich, which his present day admirers always use as a criteria to remind people that he must be good at something, despite their inability to figure out what exactly.

So I guess if you're rich, opportunist, you've got a big mouth, you really, really, don't care about intellectual honesty, and you want to get richer and get more admirers, why not do like Ben Stein, and why should you care ?

It seems to me that Mr Stein, in addition to his inability to understand evolution and science, is confused about the difference between science and engineering.

The genocidal methods of WW2 Germany were not based or made possible by any scientific discovery that wasn't well known and understood by most of the western world at the time.

What was different was the application of engineering to the practice of genocide. Genocide as an industry with work, death and the raw materials of its victims as its work product and waste. There was very little science needed to make it happen. It was a product of engineering and accountancy. Henry Ford was not a scientist. He was an industrialist applying the principles of good engineering and efficiency controls. He was also a hero to the Third Reich.

Even today if you wish to design an internment camp and crematoria you don't talk to scientists. You go to architects and engineers, the applied sciences.

Wartime Germany was quite good for the applied sciences. Much like ancient Rome was. It was a time for construction, building and doing things. Wartime Germany, as with Rome, was not so good a time for scientists. The problem is that scientists ask questions and seek to find out how things work. Fascism is not amenable to people who ask questions. Asking questions implies you don't know. Fascism, and many religions, are all about knowing.

Fascism is about knowing and doing. Knowing, believing in what the leaders say, and doing, as in applied sciences.

Wartime Germany was not so big on the science. People who ask too many questions and Jews were not handled gently. As a result Germany's pure science output was actually reduced. This was seen in their nuclear program. Exploitation of the known science, engineering, increased but the closer a field of study was to pure science the less the Germans wanted to look into it. They wanted results. Now or sooner.

The best example of this was their genetics research. Yes, they went deep into simplistic and useless crossbreeding experiments to create the perfect German but they stayed well away from real science and research in the field. Largely because it would show the hollowness and uselessness of their claims about race and purity. These claims were not the result of science but rather an affront to the science.

But offending science was never a problem. Plenty of camps to go around for people who question. A lot of scientists perished in them. Scientist were seen as frivolous dreamers and expendable if their work wasn't immediately useful. Engineering, design and immediately apparent utility was more to the wartime German taste.

Excellent comment, Art (#29).

@#28 negentropyeater --

you are most probably correct, but I'd like to be a bit cynical, why should he care about intellectual honesty if he can make more money and get more admirers this way and this is what he sees as the meanning of his life ? NB He wouldn't be the first one in that situation in America. Remember, there's nobody judging above is there ?
...
So I guess if you're rich, opportunist, you've got a big mouth, you really, really, don't care about intellectual honesty, and you want to get richer and get more admirers, why not do like Ben Stein, and why should you care ?

I think what it boils down to is that no matter what part of society you're in, you're still a social animal. It is important that the meaning you create for yourself be a meaning that you would honestly be satisfied with seeing adopted by the rest of the world. I doubt Stein really would be happy if everyone became intellectually dishonest, greedy back-stabbing opportunists. Whether he realizes it or not, his comfort and position in society relies on people who *do* value intellectual honesty and who do not change their values whenever they see opportunities to make $.

(The obvious response to this would be "What about someone like Hitler"? Besides the fact that he was probably clinically insane, and I don't think you can really apply criteria like these to people who are not of sound mind, I think you need to see it beyond "would I be content with a society in which everyone hates Jews" ; the question would be "would I be happy if everyone scapegoated and killed people different from themselves -- which might, for some people, include me".)

So while we create our own meanings, the consequences of those meanings play out in the larger fabric of society and we are responsible for them. Creating one's own meaning is a social responsibility as much as it is a personal freedom.

(I am also forced to wonder if Stein really finds the acquisition of wealth so meaningful, considering that it is never enough for him.)

Question for Ben Stein: "PolyNut want a cracker?"

religion is all about killing people

I was pondering this while doing some chores. And I think he can't be stupid enough to believe the stuff he's saying now, especially with what he said in the past--

so, I am afraid he put his bet on the other side winning the culture wars. If he's wrong, and rationality wins out, all he will lose is a career. If he's right, and the theocrats win, he has a chance at being-- I forget the word for them-- but the prisoners at the concentration camps who snitched on and ordered about other prisoners to get food and survival.
The difference between him and them, is they didn't chose to do so while there were still other options.

You've gotta stop chain-chewing that Nicorette, Ann.

Olbermann is my hero.

Wait a minute... The candidates for worst person in the world are just a couple of blowhards? Did anyone notice that there are mass murderers still walking the earth?

-jcr

Re #27 - Samantha, there may be another word, but I think trusty is what you are looking for. Of course, human debris is probably closer in description of those who give up their decency for an extra ounce of bread. As I recall, their life in the camps was also pretty short as even the Nazis did not trust them for long.

The sad thing is, you can always find people willing to sell themselves to the highest bidder. I see people like Ben Stein as the worst kind of prostitue...taking money without providing any value at all, in effect, "rolling" their clients.

Back to lurk mode, ciao.

#34: Ben Stein wants to be a Kapo.

Wow John,

You don't get the tongue and cheek aspect, at all, do ya?

Kinda thick ain't he.

If everyone with a rational mind just left the US, I'd give it 10 years before it'd turn up being a theocratic third world country.
Bug, meet feature.

Wait a minute... The candidates for worst person in the world are just a couple of blowhards? Did anyone notice that there are mass murderers still walking the earth?

Qstn: f Bll 'Rlly nd nn Cltr wr t dsppr tmrrw, wld Kth "Bthtb By" lbrmnn sddnly cm dwn wth cs f lckjw? r wld h g bck t SPN, whr t lst h wsn't n 5000 ft vr hs hd?

I think that Stein's involvement with the ID movement has just as much to do with his political ideology as it does with his love of filthy lucre. B.S. threw his hat in the ring with the Republicans decades ago, and maintains loyalty to the party even though they have gone on a downward spiral into complete lunacy. The only thing the Republicans have left now is the culture war, so Ben soldiers on, unwilling to see that his fellow travelers really think that he's destined to burn eternally in a lake-a-lake-of-burning-brimstone.

"Question: if Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter were to disappear tomorrow, would Keith "Bathtub Boy" Olbermann suddenly come down with a case of lockjaw? Or would he go back to ESPN, where at least he wasn't in 5000 feet over his head?"

At least Olberman can fit in a bathtub.

Thats more than I can say for the fatuous fatman Limbaugh.

I can't help but wonder if maybe Stein isn't trying to position himself for some sort of political appointment (on the assumption that McCain takes the presidency).

In over his head? As compared to who? Matthews? Limbaugh? Beck?

You can't be serious.

In over his head? As compared to who? Matthews? Limbaugh? Beck?

s cmprd t nyn wth brn wh dsn't ndlssly rcycl lftst tlkng pnts.

where at least he wasn't in 5000 feet over his head?

projecting again?

As compared to anyone with a brain who doesn't endlessly recycle leftist talking points.

ah, the question was answered before i posted it.

yes, you are projecting again I see.

next question:

did you forget to take your meds today?

coulter and BillO are brainless idiots who endlessly recycle rightist talking points. Compared to them Olbermann is a genius.

@#44 cicely --

I can't help but wonder if maybe Stein isn't trying to position himself for some sort of political appointment (on the assumption that McCain takes the presidency).

Stop. You're giving me nightmares. (Ben Stein as Secretary of Education, promoting his IDiot views...Ben Stein as Secretary of Commerce, incorrectly prognosticating future commercial/economic events...Ben Stein as Secretary of Defense, acting based on his paranoid fantasies of global nuclear catastrophe...)

ah, the question was answered before i posted it.

yes, you are projecting again I see.

next question:

did you forget to take your meds today?

Hy lk! nchdck, n f PZ's sck pppts, hs cm t t ply. H lks t ccs vryn wh dsgrs wth hm f "prjctng". (H dsn't vn knw th mnng f ths trm, bt nywy...)

H ls thnks tht mdctn s rqrd s tht vryn cn thnk lk gd bdnt lttl Dmbcrt.

sn't h ct?!

(Ben Stein as Secretary of Education, promoting his IDiot views...Ben Stein as Secretary of Commerce, incorrectly prognosticating future commercial/economic events...Ben Stein as Secretary of Defense, acting based on his paranoid fantasies of global nuclear catastrophe...)

Ben Stein as Vice President...

@#53 Ichthyic --

Ben Stein as Vice President...

Ben Stein as President, when ol' McCain finally expires...

Okay, I'm sorry, that scenario was uncalled for. Cruel and unusual.

coulter and BillO are brainless idiots who endlessly recycle rightist talking points. Compared to them Olbermann is a genius.

Cmprd t Bthtb By, mst kndrgrtnrs r gnss!

all kindergarteners are geniuses compared to you Dumb Dude

Hey look! Inchdick, one of PZ's sock puppets, has come out to play. He likes to accuse everyone who disagrees with him of "projecting". (He doesn't even know the meaning of this term, but anyway...)

I only accuse those who are obviously projecting of doing so.

When someone thinks that Limbaugh and O'Reilly are the intellectuals, and that they aren't the ones repeating right wing talking points, but instead points the finger at Olberman for "leftist" talking points that are not only undefined, but don't even exist, we call that projection.

yes, you are projecting your own little fantasy world.

next you'll be telling us that Olberman is the one with the Oxycontin addiction, right, oh fubar one?

as to my understanding of psychology, I hardly have to defend myself on something a highschooler with a basic psych text could pick out of your behavior and posts.

If you want to have fun figuring out if you think you know what it means to project, you could always try the wiki on it and see how well you fit.

OTOH, I suggest a much more productive method would be for you to visit a mental health care professional and ask them.

Doubtless your denial will kick in and eliminate that as a possibility, though.

Go suck on Limbaugh's knob. Keep your hands and mouth occupied elsewhere you tool.

@#54 Some Dude & #55 death adder --

Generally genius is considered as describing a person's innate abilities and has nothing to do with their age or relative education. It's a statistical concept more than anything else. Further, unlike "PhD", where generally some level of intelligence is required to get one, kindergarten education is compulsory in most of the western world, so the statistics for kindergarteners will be the same as those for the general population in America.

So saying "most kindergarteners" or "all kindergarteners" is no more meaningful than saying simply "most people" or "all people."

Go suck on Limbaugh's knob. Keep your hands and mouth occupied elsewhere you tool.

Spkng f prjctng....

It wasn't projecting. I'm sure you have lots of practice.

Thanks Etha, but Dude & I are speaking colloquially in our sparring. :)

Steve might be wrong, you might be sucking O'Reilly's knob and not Limbaugh's, but it certainly wasn't a case of projection on his part.

Some Dude = Joe Blow

Some Dude = Joe Blow

I was thinking it was Kenny's more angry sock-puppet, but you might be right.

ah, well, one sock-puppet from a moron often looks like another.

I suppose it should be flagged, since Joe has escaped from the dungeon.

That's not fair. No one should have to compete with Coulter for "Worst Person in the World."

Poor Stein, persecuted again. He'd probably like to be Olbermann's "Worst Person," and Glenn Beck's pet. But no, he's only stupid enough for Beck to like him, not mentally disturbed enough to be "Worst Person," not when Coulter's competing.

I hope that others caught the fact that Stein's "valedictorian" status was due to voting (Glenn Beck's show). Apparently he has always thought himself to be smart via popularity, and thinks that merit is whatever wins over the most people. That experts might actually be in a better position to judge the merits of a claim seems foreign to his inexpert brain.

Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Ironic that he doesn't know what "sock puppet" means...

Some Dude = Joe Blow

ksny = pz
nchdck = pz

now that's just random noise.

meds.

take 'em.

hahaha.

If you had any idea how many people comment on here, you would know that PZ doesn't need sock puppets.

Actually, he'll just disemvowel you.

He'd probably like to be Olbermann's "Worst Person,"

actually, I'd say that would be a good bet.

I'm sure Stein thinks his latest performance is pure genius, if only those criticizing him would take the time to figure out his "real" motivation.

Frankly, I can't find a reason to bother.

the bed is made, and I can't see anyone lying in it but Stein himself.

kseniya = pz
inchdick = pz

whatsa matter, couldn't think of a "clever" anagram of Kseniya?

LOL

what a maroon.

I only accuse those who are obviously projecting of doing so.

Whch, n th dmp, dnk, drry rcsss f yr pthtc xcs fr brn, wld b vryn wh dsgrs wth y

When someone thinks that Limbaugh and O'Reilly are the intellectuals,

Whn dd sy tht thght ths tw wr "ntllctls"? Fr th rcrd, dn't thnk thy r. 'Rlly s spnt frc. Lmbgh's ntrtnng, bt hvn't mngd t ctch hs shw n qt fw yrs nw (t's clld hvng jb, smthng wth whch y r bvsly nt fmlr, wht wth bng sck pppt nd ll).

and that they aren't the ones repeating right wing talking points, but instead points the finger at Olberman for "leftist" talking points that are not only undefined, but don't even exist,

"Lftst tlkng pnts dn't xst." gss y'v nvr hrd f Dmcrtc ndrgrnd, r Dly Ks, r Mvn.rg, r, fr tht mttr, 99.9 % f th mnstrm md. Jst n cs nyn mssd thm, hr's smplng:

Grg Bsh stl th 2000 lctn.
bm stnds fr chng!!!.
Wtrbrdng s trtr.
Thr wr nvr WMD n rq.
Bsh ld, ppl dd.
N bld fr l.
rl sx sn't rlly sx (vry tng by grs wth ths n!)
Rnld Rgn csd DS.
Th scnc n glbl wrmng s sttld.

we call that projection.

Crrctn: y cll tht prjctn. Ths f s wth fnctnng gry mttr cll t trth-tlln'.

yes, you are projecting your own little fantasy world.

rnc, cmng frm sck pppt.

as to my understanding of psychology, I hardly have to defend myself on something a highschooler with a basic psych text could pick out of your behavior and posts.

Wht wld y knw bt hgh schl, snc y'r bt dcd wy frm gttng thr? h wt...wht m dng, tlkng t sck pppt? Nvr mnd.

Don't touch that dial! Still to come:

If you had any idea how many people comment on here, you would know that PZ doesn't need sock puppets.

Wll, y'r th thrd n 'v ncntrd tnght.

Actually, he'll just disemvowel you.

Y wll, wll y. Wll, n't y spcl.

Check off #3, folks.

Oops, I forgot to mention the requisite "Unlike you parasitic libruls, I HAVE A JOB" comment. My bad.

Tell us, Slow-Blo, what's a "sock puppet" in Internet parlance, and by what standard does Ichthyic qualify as a sock puppet, and what evidence do you have to support the claim?

Steve might be wrong, you might be sucking O'Reilly's knob and not Limbaugh's, but it certainly wasn't a case of projection on his part.

S hw ds PZ's smn tst thr, nchdck?

Which, in the damp, dank, dreary recesses of your pathetic excuse for a brain, would be everyone who disagrees with you

all you have to do is prove it.

For the record, I don't think they are. O'Reilly is a spent force.

for the record, nobody here gives a shit what you think.

(it's called having a job, something with which you are obviously not familiar, what with being a sock puppet and all).

you need to also look up what "sock puppet" means, while you continue to try and figure out what projection means.

btw, your "list" of supposed talking points that Olberman supposedly regurgitates....

funny, but I can't seem to find any tapes of Olberman saying any of those things, except for the very last, and that's not a talking point, it's a fact.

What would you know about high school, since you're about a decade away from getting there? Oh wait...what am I doing, talking to a sock puppet? Never mind.

what am I doing railing on a complete idiot?

It's not even shooting fish in a barrel, more like making fun of the mentally ill.

I better stop before someone gets mad at me.

mental illness is not a laughing matter, after all.

Oh yeah, check off "Overstates liberal slant of mainstream media" too.

@#76 Some Dude --

Steve might be wrong, you might be sucking O'Reilly's knob and not Limbaugh's, but it certainly wasn't a case of projection on his part.

So how does PZ's semen taste there, inchdick?

Wow...this is bizarre...you accuse Ichthyic of *being* PZ, and then you accuse Ichthyic of having oral sex with aforementioned PZ. Auto-fellatio, much?

Check off #3, folks.

Mr prjctn frm th Phrynglr Sck Pppt Pnt Gllry. 'm shckd. Nt.

Oops, I forgot to mention the requisite "Unlike you parasitic libruls, I HAVE A JOB" comment. My bad.

h tht's rght. 'm nt sppsd t ctlly wrk fr lvng. 'm sppsd t bcm prfssnl blg cmmntr jst lk y.

Tell us, Slow-Blo, what's a "sock puppet" in Internet parlance, and by what standard does Ichthyic qualify as a sock puppet, and what evidence do you have to support the claim?

Wh th mthr fck s "Slw-Bl"? Lst hrd t ws sm typ f crtrdg fs. Y wnt t s sck pppt? By mrrr.

Srsly thgh, ny tm nyn crtczs hs mprs ldr, h's thr wth th nvctv nd th prjctn, nd s lwys fwnng vr nythng Mr. P. Z. sys. t's cmclly bvs t nyn vr th g f ght.

What would you know about high school, since you're about a decade away from getting there?

There we go; there's another classic Joe Blow barb: the insinuation that you're in grade school. (I can almost smell the morphing ban from way over here!)

Let's call that one #6. So, let's recap the story thus far:

don't forget he also accused Kseniya of being PZ.

I'm not sure you even want to try and work out how that figures into it, though.

like I said, this guy obviously has some serious issues (or he's about 8 years old - or both), and we did have a discussion about making fun of the mentally handicapped in a different thread.

mental illness is not a laughing matter, after all.

Y shld knw, gvn tht y'r stll xprncng t.

#82 was in reference to #79, btw.

Joe is just embarrassing himself at this point.

I suppose that WAS my goal, but it was just so easy to do that it wasn't much fun.

I'm done.

1. "You've proved my point!"

Wll, y jst dd.

WorldNetDaily cited as gospel.

Wrld Nt Dly s wrttn by Mtthw, Mrk, Lk nd Jhn? hd n d.

3. Reference to "MoveOn.org Liberals" - CHECK

t s rthr rdndnt, sn't t?

4. Unlike you parasitic libruls, I have a job - CHECK

Fld spllng, s.

5. Overstates liberal slant of mainstream media - CHECK

Tht wld cm ndr th gnrl hdng f "dng th mpssbl".

6. Insinuates that his opponents are pre-adolescents - CHECK

Wll, ftr sm f th cmmnts 'v sn hr frm y bzs, gss s.

Joe, how is my predicting your pejorative reference to MoveOn a case of "projection"? Do you think "projection" is a form of prescience? Maybe I should be flattered.

Oh that's right. I'm not supposed to actually work for a living

Wow. Talk about missing the point.

Who the mother fuck is "Slow-Blo"? Last I heard it was some type of cartridge fuse. You want to see a sock puppet? Buy a mirror.

You haven't answered my question.

Joe is just embarrassing himself at this point.

Wh's J? Yr byfrnd? PZ n't gnn b t hppy wth y nchdck!!!

4. Unlike you parasitic libruls, I have a job - CHECK
Failed spelling, I see.

7. inability to grasp irony - check.

Kseniya, you might as well be trying to have a lucid conversation with a magic 8-ball at this point.

[*shakes it up*]

"It is certain"

all kindergarteners are geniuses compared to you Dumb Dude

nd ll wmn hv pnss cmprd t y, dd blddr.

Wow! Joe just called you a football!

7. inability to grasp irony - check.

Mr prjctn frm th nchdck sck pppt, wh cn't grsp th rny tht h s sck pppt.

RTFL

What a waste of time. Haven't we had enough open sores dripping their pustulence all over these pages these past few days?

SomeDude = JoeBlow = MalignantTroll = FesteringCarbuncle

Time to starve the cat.

"It is certain"

...tht nchdck nd ksny r sckpppts.

(fr ths wh hdn't lrdy fgrd t th bvs).

What color curtains do you like, SD?

Joe, I suggest you consult your phrenologist ASAP. Something just ain't right.

Buhbye, Trollboy.

"...that inchdick and kseniya are sockpuppets."

You keep using that word, I dont think you know what it means.

LOL Matt... zakly.

What color curtains do you like, SD?

Crtns? prfr Vntn blnds, thnk-y vry mch. lt lss wrk t kp cln! Why d y sk?

S wh's ths J chrctr nywy? J Stln? J Mrgn? Lttl J (K Mchl Lndn)? J Grgl?

You keep using that word, I dont think you know what it means.

ky, dct m gns by. Wht ds t mn?

Why do you ask?

oh, I think you'll find out.

I can haz more learning, plz?

tell us more about PZ, er, I mean, myself?

SomeDude = JoeBlow = MalignantTroll = FesteringCarbuncle

Ksny = nchdck = PZ = MlgnntTrll = Fstrng Crbncl

S, cn thrw rnd mrnc nslts t. sn't ths fn?

RTFL

I can throw around moronic insults

Oh, I have no doubt of that. You've proven it time and again.

However, mine have some basis in fact, you weedy clay-brained malcontent.

, you weedy clay-brained malcontent

uh, oh.

looks like K is gonna whip out the Shakespearean insult generator again!

that could be fun.

However, mine have some basis in fact, you weedy clay-brained malcontent.

Y rlly nd t gv p ths dscnt phrmctcls, y knw.

"Okay, educate me genius boy. What does it mean?"

Judging from your style of commenting here, I think it might take someone alot more patient than myself to educate you.
Im not going to tell you what it means either. You tell me. You never answered Kseniya when she asked you.

Discount pharma...?

Wow, that was quite a zinger, there, Joe. I'm, like, totally speechless now!

*eyeroll*

Would the fountain of your mind were clear again, that I might water an ass at it.

Would the fountain of your mind were clear again, that I might water an ass at it.

Why d y nd t wtr yr ss? Dd y rn t f tlt ppr? Jst g t Wl-mrt thn!!!

Aw, come on, guys, don't waste the energy with him. (Unless you're intentionally keeping your teeth sharp... then carry on). Classic flaming from someone with obvious experience. It sucks when a good thread gets hijacked, and it's probably too late now.

Back to lurking (if I'm allowed).

oh, I rather think the incongruity of Shakespearean wit against the mewling of SD would be a wonderful diversion at this point.

Please, K, do the honors?

Matt, it's pointless. He's trolling. No good can come of it. Obviously, I'm in the midst of an EPIC FAIL - simply because I haven't succeeded in completely ignoring him.

Yet.

(Unless you're intentionally keeping your teeth sharp... then carry on).

umm, not exactly why I'm keeping him on the leash. I would only dull my teeth if I actually chose to use them here.

just giving him a bit of rope at a time.

You never answered Kseniya when she asked you.

dd, bt yr lck f rdng cmprhnsn sklls s bvsly prvntng y frm rlzng tht.

Dn't wrry thgh. Thy tch ths stff n th thrd grd. Y shld mk t thr n bt fv yrs.

btw, we don't use blinds where you're going.

what color curtains would you like?

Classic flaming from someone with obvious experience.

Yes, from someone who's been here before. Right, Slow-Blo?

The cadence is familiar; the diction is familiar; the talking points are similar and predictable; the acidic, yet shallow, barbs are familiar... If it's not Joe, it might as well be. Same same database, functions, same output. Y'know?

In the end, what difference does it make? Of what matter to us is the precise identity of a gleeking, motley-minded nut-hook such as he, who has not so much brain as ear wax?

just giving him a bit of rope at a time.

Heh. I'll say. He's measured plenty well to identify himself.

Would the fountain of your mind were clear again, that I might water an ass at it.

Beautiful! Too much more and we'll need a "collected works of Kseniya (OM)" in a few months.

btw, we don't use blinds where you're going.

Thy d s s blnds n Hmltn. sw sm tdy n fct. Mr prf (s f mr ws ndd) tht y r dply dlsnl.

They do so use blinds in Hamilton.

but not where you're going (already been?).

what color curtains would you like?

The cadence is familiar; the diction is familiar; the talking points are similar and predictable; the acidic, yet shallow, barbs are familiar... If it's not Joe, it might as well be. Same same database, functions, same output. Y'know?

Ys bcs, s w ll knw, f tw ppl gr n smthng thy mst b th sm prsn. S snc y nd nchdck gr wth PZ s mch, y nd h mst b th sm prsn, by yr lgc. 'm gld w gr n tht. h, wt...tht mns y nd r th sm prsn. r myb t mns yr rgmnt s pl f hrssht.

if two people agree on something they must be the same person.

PZ=Ichthyic=Kseniya

what color curtains would you like?

I did, but your lack of reading comprehension skills is obviously preventing you from realizing that.

O illiterate loiterer! No - no, you have not! Thou art a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar.

Don't worry though. They teach this stuff in the third grade. You should make it there in about five years.

Come, come, you talk greasily; your lips grow foul. Canst thou not pass a Turing test?

what color curtains would you like?

Smn psh th nxt trck bttn. Ths CD pprs t b scrtchd.

Yes because, as we all know, if two people agree on something they must be the same person

Thou odiferious fool-born maggot-pie!

It's as if you didn't even read the material you bothered to select and quote. LMAO.

too difficult a question for you?

hey, I've taken it on myself to ask all inevitable residents of the dungeon what color curtains they would like for their cells.

if you don't pick yourself, you'll just have to settle for whatever we have the most of.

we don't do blinds, though.

but not where you're going

Hmltn nd Cmbrdg r th nly plcs 'm gng n th nxt fw dys, nd cn ssr y thy hv blnds thr.

Dckwd.

Ontario, eh? But you used to live in the USA, didn't you, Captain Literal?

It's almost embarrassing how much I'm enjoying Kseniya and Ichthyic's evisceration of this rabid yapping mangy chiuaua.

Almost. ;)

It's as if you didn't even read the material you bothered to select and quote.

Prjctng gn, s. nd plgrzng Shkspr.

Lsr.

It's almost embarrassing how much I'm enjoying Kseniya and Ichthyic's evisceration of this rabid yapping mangy chiuaua.

Wht's tht, sphnctr? Wht's ch? s t nythng lk Chhh? D y hv nythng ntllgnt t sy? N? Thn rn lng nd ply wth th thr kdds.

Hamilton and Cambridge are the only places I'm going in the next few days

I talk virtual, and he takes it as literal.

*shrug*

what color curtains would you like?

Ontario, eh? But you used to live in the USA, didn't you, Captain Literal?

'v lvd vrywhr, mn, 'v lvd vrywhr.
ncldng th Klngn Hm Wrld.

plagiarizing Shakespeare

you better find a lawyer and sue on his behalf, quick, thou qualling weather-bitten clotpole!

Projecting again, I see. And plagiarizing Shakespeare.

LOL!

Really, Dude... Is that all you've got?

And you have to conflate "quoting" with "plagiarizing" to make your flaccid little point? (Which apparently is to tacitly admit that you have no idea what "cadence" or "diction" mean.)

You really do remind me of Joe. He wasn't unintelligent, but his shallowness of thought and his serious testosterone deficiency prohibited him from ever admitting when he'd been bested in a debate. He just ran away and pretended it didn't happen, dickless little coward that he was. He morphed once or twice, too. False face doth hide what the false heart doth know. Eh, Dude?

I talk virtual, and he takes it as literal.

Srry, frgt. Wth y, vrythng s vrtl. Tht's bcs y r sck pppt.

hey, SD, someone answered your ad on the singles page:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/science_leads_to_killing_peo…

oh, my. That incessant nipping at the ankles is rather tiresome, isn't it?

How some people can find it cute is beyond me.

btw, SD, there's a working definition of sockpuppetry here:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php

Which apparently is to tacitly admit that you have no idea what "cadence" or "diction" mean.

Cdnc s bcyclng trm. Rfrs t nmbr f pdl rvltns pr mnt. Hghr s bttr. ny mr qstns?

Any more questions?

...

*thinks carefully*

...

...

what color curtains would you like?

This sort of troll behavior is a stunning example of what happens when someone utterly abandons Habermas' principle of good faith argumentation and instead goes with what could be called bad faith argumentation. Rather than trying his best to genuinely understand the position of the people he's arguing with and to respond in agreement or disagreement appropriately, the bad-faith troll tries his best to deliberately misunderstand it, and reply in disagreement no matter what.

The whole thing is a futile endeavor. But mildly entertaining....

The whole thing is a futile endeavor. But mildly entertaining....

dogpile on the dude!

Would the fountain of your mind were clear again...

For the record, yes, that's Shakespeare. I figured that was a given. Do I have to include cites for material that's in the public domain? Anyway, I tend to rely more heavily on words like "shortcake" in my own writing, so that's how you can tell the difference.

Yes, yes, yes. Well, what a coincidence, if Some Dude lives outside the USA. Joe was an expat, too - a hard right-wing, Bush-defending, moveon-dot-org-bashing, opponent-infantilizing, I-work-harder-than-you-parasites-claimin' expat.

What a coincidence that would be.

Oh, and Joe had a rather pointed dislike of Ichthyic. Funny how "Some Dude" - whose generic name neatly echos Joe's everyman moniker - appears out of nowhere and launches a bitter attack on Ichthyic. And at me, who'd pwned Joe's ass a couple of times on little things like ... what's the word... oh yeah, FACTS.

What an eerie coincidence.

There are differences, of course, though they are superficial enough to have been fabricated - like using "inchdick" instead of "icky thing", which IIRC was Joe's pet name for Icky.

So, never mind. I guess they're not the least bit similar. My mistake.

So, never mind. I guess they're not the least bit similar. My mistake.

less analysis, more bard!

...Thou rascally decayed plebian!

;)

Cadence is a bicycling term. Refers to number of pedal revolutions per minute. Higher is better. Any more questions?

Yes.

Could you possibly be any more obtuse? Actually, that's not so much a query as it is a request. I'm feeling the need to be... amazed. Thanks.

By the way, if that was meant as a joke... uh... don't quit your day job. I mean that in the kindest possible way.

I'm feeling the need to be... amazed.

hmm, not the adjective I would have chosen if you are looking for something from SD.

amazing stupidity has already been established, amazing ignorance, obtuseness, childishness,

hmm, maybe I was wrong?

carry on.

Uh-oh... only five more minutes until I turn into a shortcake pumpkin.

Good night, good night! parting is such sweet sorrow,
That I shall say good night till it be morrow,
Thou currish hasty-witted clack-dish!

Cadence is a bicycling term. Refers to number of pedal revolutions per minute. Higher is better. Any more questions?

Yes. So... when I'm biking, I should always stay in first gear?

I should always stay in first gear?

of course! that's the SD way:

pedal madly and get nowhere fast.

*snicker*

"It's always the "other" that is the problem. For them, Christianity and Judaism have no relation to tribalism or to mysticism. Voodoo is mysticism, rising from the dead, global floods and a triune god is civilized and common sense science. And the fundamentalism they're talking about is the kind that Atheists (I know) and Muslims do. Like "removing" prayer from school, teaching "fables" like evolution and killing innocent Christians.
Remember, evidence means nothing to them. They know the truth already. Anything that challenges that truth is wrong automatically."

Plus let us recall that "Christianity" to these people has very little to do with the teachings of Christ or the bible (hence their happiness to embrace Stein despite his Judaism).

As used by them Christianity is actually short-hand for a neofascist, anti-intellectual ideology that revels in racism and xenophobia.

Stein may disagree with them on trivial stuff like the divinity pg Jesus but he agrees on the essential stuff like the need for white people to stock up on guns to defend themselves against the darkies and the importance of helping Israel to kill as many arabs as possible.

Hmm. Have you tried calling him a "couch potato"? Joe Blow really hates that.

Quite amusing to read the twaddle posted by the likes of Joe Blow and Kenny in this blog. I stumbled over a summary of the work done by Carlo M. Cipolla, Professor Emeritus of Economic History at Berkeley (click on the link for more info). We (sane posters in this blog) have invoked the Poe for some of the loony tune posters but Cipollas Law might be more relevant:
The Five Laws of Stupidity according to Carlo Cipolla:

First Law
We always underestimate the number of stupid people.
This is not as obvious as it sounds, says Cipolla, because:
people we had thought to be rational and intelligent suddenly turn out to be unquestionably stupid;
and
day after day we are hampered in whatever we do by stupid people who invariably turn up in the least appropriate places.
He also observes that it is impossible to set a percentage, because any number we choose will be too small.

Second Law
The probability of a person being stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
If you study the frequency of stupidity in the people who come to clean up classrooms after hours, you find that it is much higher than you expected. You assume that this is related to their lower level of education, or to the fact that non-stupid people have better chances of obtaining good jobs. But when you analyze students or University professors (or, I would add, computer programmers) the distribution is exactly the same.

Militant feminists may be incensed, says Cipolla, but the stupidity factor is the same in both genders (or as many genders, or sexes, as you may choose to consider). No difference in the sigma factor, as Cipolla calls it, can be found by race, color, ethnic heritage, education, etcetera.

Third (and Golden) Law
A stupid person is someone who causes damage to another person, or a group of people, without any advantage accruing to himself (or herself) -- or even with some resultant self-damage.
(We shall come back to this, because it is the pivotal concept of the Cipolla Theory.)

Fourth Law
Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people. They constantly forget that at any moment, and in any circumstance, associating with stupid people invariably constitutes an expensive mistake.
That (I would say) suggests that non-stupid people are a bit stupid.

Fifth Law
A stupid person is the most dangerous person in existence.
This is probably the most widely understood of the Laws, if only because it is common knowledge that intelligent people, hostile as they might be, are predictable, while stupid people are not. Moreover, its basic corollary:

A stupid person is more dangerous than a bandit
leads us to the heart of the Cipolla Theory. There are four types of people, he says, depending on their behavior in a transaction:

Hapless
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-damage, but also to create advantage for someone else.

Intelligent
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-advantage, as well as advantage for others.

Bandit
Someone whose actions tend to generate self-advantage while causing damage to others.

Stupid
We already have this definition in the Third Law.

Some additional Laws concerning Stupidity:

If good intentions are combined with stupidity, it is impossible to outthink them.

Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation.

Stupidity is not a sin; the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is arrived out automatically and without pity.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

The number of people watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.

When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to have recourse to any other.

Stuff like this shows how inane ***ALL*** ideologies are in the USA. Stuff like DailyKos and WorldNetDaily are two sides of the same moronic coin- just different shades of intellectual smog that leads to blindness and idiocy.

Ben Stein is one of the worst people in the WORLD? In a world with human slavers in northern Africa? In a world where women are *sentenced* to rape by Islamic systems of "justice"? Worse than the police forces in Mozambique who are murdering with impunity? Worse than those who oppress Tibet? Worse thanwho have slaughtered 1.7 million in the Congo since 1997? Worse than the hierarchy of the Catholic Church who protected pedophile priests?

Expelled is crap and Stein is a tool. But "Worst in the World?" That is just embarrassing. O'Reilly? Coulter? What sane person even pays attention to them? Sorry, Olbermann is a journalistic nanoweight if he sticks to such easy targets. It's ideological masturbation for the faithful. Useless.

Here's a reality dose for anyone sitting around fretting over Coulter or O'Reilly: http://www.amnesty.org/

Ok, kept hoping someone would address one issue by Somedude, but no one did. Waterboarding is torture, period. As part of my training in resisting interrogation, I have had it practiced on me. It is torture, real torture in that it inspires the fear of death. I know of no one, not one single person who has experienced it and not agreed that it is torture. Some of those people still believed it was ok to use it on another person, but that is an ethical question. Personally, I do not believe in the use of torture for any reason. However, the point is, waterboarding is torture. Like old maids talking about sex, if you have not experienced it, I don't think you can make a factual statement on it.

Sorry to spend time on this issue, but it bugs me that opposition to torture is seen as "liberal" some how or that torture can be defined as a right and patriotic thing to do.

Back to lurk mode.

Please, please, please don't waste your time on flaming assholes like "Some Dude". It just means I have to clean up the mess afterwards.

seeing him disemvoweled makes me giddy.

I felt a great disturbance in the Internet, as if millions of vowels suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

JeffreyD:

Sorry to spend time on this issue, but it bugs me that opposition to torture is seen as "liberal" some how or that torture can be defined as a right and patriotic thing to do.

No, I'm very glad you spent time on this issue. You don't have to waterboard me to convince me it's torture, but I'm glad someone with your authentic POV spoke up on the issue.

I didn't want to encourage SD by jumping into the thread, but it struck me that there were a number of things -- the waterboarding being just the most obvious -- on that list of "liberal talking points" that were perfectly reasonable positions... either obviously true or clearly worth talking about. The mere fact that liberals are talking about something doesn't make it a "liberal talking point." As with sockpuppet, I think talking point is a term that "does not mean what [SD thinks] it means."

And BTW: Talking points aren't inherently evil. They're just a way for a group to control the manner and timing with which its ideas are presented to the public. The goodness or evil of talking points lies in the quality and honesty of the ideas being presented, and the group's intentions in presenting them.

Please, please, please don't waste your time on flaming assholes like "Some Dude". It just means I have to clean up the mess afterwards.

I duly apologize, but, uh, that WAS the point, after all; to call your attention to the mess.

It's hardly like anybody here thought there was something worth debating there. It was just an exercise in shooting off flares.

again, I apologize, but it worked.

Next time, I'll try the "starve the cat" approach. I just couldn't resist trying to blow Joe Blow's cover if it was him. (Not that it matters, but I think it was not him - too many Blowisms missing from this guy's rap, and I'd guess that he has fewer brain cells than Joe. FWIW.)

Please, please, please don't waste your time on flaming assholes like "Some Dude". It just means I have to clean up the mess afterwards.

h lky, lky, lky!!! Th mn bhnd th crtn fnlly rvls hmslf. Tll m, P W, r, mn PZ, dd yr sck pppts gt trd f m nd tll y t cll m n sshl yrslf?

Ys bcs, s w ll knw, f tw ppl gr n smthng thy mst b th sm prsn. S snc y nd nchdck gr wth PZ s mch, y nd h mst b th sm prsn, by yr lgc. 'm gld w gr n tht. h, wt...tht mns y nd r th sm prsn. r myb t mns yr rgmnt s pl f hrssht.

Ys, bcs, s w ll knw, f tw ppl gr n smthng thy mst b th sm prsn. S snc y nd nchdck gr wth PZ s mch, y nd h mst b th sm prsn, by yr lgc. 'm gld w gr n tht. h, wt...tht mns y nd r th sm prsn. r myb t mns yr rgmnt s pl f hrssht.

Thr. Fxd tht fr y.

Gld t b f srvc.

Ignore the troll.

He's obviously heading for the dungeon.

Ignore the troll.

He's obviously heading for the dungeon.

k, 'll gnr y, trllng PZ sck pppt!

He's obviously heading for the dungeon.

actually, if you look he's already there.

we picked blue for the curtains.

now he's gunning for an IP ban as well.

actually, if you look he's already there.

Oh, yes, I just checked. I suppose I can go to bed in peace. :-)

Another "almost" bites the dust.

k, 'll gnr y, trllng PZ sck pppt!

translation:

"I'm melting, melting. Ohhhhh, what a world, what a world."

Did anyone notice that there are mass murderers still walking the earth?

No worries, Bush and Cheney have been in he list, too.

The remaining "y"s make me think that the troll's speaking Georgian of some similar Caucasian language.