Fun with the godly loons

Aikman is of course the author of this book: The Delusion of Disbelief: Why the New Atheism is a Threat to Your Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

Try parsing that. By being atheists, we are a threat to life? A threat to liberty? A threat to the ability of others to pursue what they think will make them happy? Religious believers are the only ones I know who fit those descriptions.

(Related blog post, if I may.)

"Refuting the Arguments of Atheists."

Undoubtedly featuring no actual atheists and few, if any, actual atheist arguments.

Just the sound of straw breaking...if they only had a brain.

From: http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/enemy_image/

"The term "out-group" refers to anyone who is not in your own group. "Your group" can be any salient identity group: your nationality, your ethnicity, your race, your religion. In conflicts between groups of people, disputants usually view people outside their own group as less good, or in the case of the opposing group, as really bad. The term "enemy image" refers to the same thing. The opposing group is seen as the "enemy," who is inferior to one's own group in many ways.

For example, the enemy may be seen as stupid, selfish, deceitful, aggressive, hostile, or even evil. This perception remains, even if members of the out-group do nothing more selfish, deceitful, aggressive, or evil than do members of one's own group. However, when they are engaged in a serious conflict, people will normally project their own negative traits onto the other side, ignoring their own shortcomings or misdeeds, while emphasizing the same in the other.

Enemy images also involve "scapegoating." It is common for each side to decide that it is the other side (the "enemy") that is the source of all their problems. If only the enemy could be vanquished or eliminated, then those problems would go away."

As an atheist and a former christian, I am always increasingly alarmed at the language of hatred that disseminates from christians to non-christians. It first caught me off guard when I would have called myself a christian, and its shock was similar to that of a child discovering there are people in the world that will harm him/her.

From that guy's website

Gold Medallion Book Award Finalist, 2005
ECPA (Evangelical Christian Publishers Association)

Eleven months on the ECPA Christian Bestsellers List!

I don't know which is sadder, that the guy wrote a book about Bush, or that he thinks that having the book be an Evangelical Christian Bestseller is a good thing.

How good are you at putting on a fake accent PZ?

I can smell the straw(men) from here - and I'm in Australia...

The Delusion of Disbelief: Why the New Atheism is a Threat to Your Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

Oh crap. I didn't know I was such an asshole.

Mr. Myers, have you got a call back from KKMS to do another debate?

I don't get it. Does atheism make you a worse driver or more litigious or maybe just make you project sad vibes? Because I'm not picking up on them...

Perhaps the Pharyngulites can do to Amazon reviews what they've been doing to online polls in recent days. Here is the link to Mr. Aikman's latest book (the one that he'll be "discussing" on the radio later today).

http://tinyurl.com/4fduaw

Right now, there are 9 reviews, with the majority being "5-Star". You can read part of the first chapter online, as well as random excerpts from later in the book.

I wonder if the hosts will mention the reviews and ratings from Amazon on the air?

And the mention of 'Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness' - because all atheists are, of course, unpatriotic and want to destroy your country. Damn their oily hides!

Question: the platypus (and its genome) is getting a lot of attention at the moment - has it ever come up in an argument for ID? I'd be fascinated to know what the ID people have to say about it. Especially those who like to jump up and down about the non-existence of 'weird hybrids' as an argument against evolution.

Try parsing that. By being atheists, we are a threat to life? A threat to liberty? A threat to the ability of others to pursue what they think will make them happy?

No, no; he's saying that New Atheism

Building on Post #3,

People should check out Bob Altemeyer's research into the personalities of authoritarian followers. One of their traits is severe "in-group" and "out-group" perceptions. They also can't follow logical arguments and ignore evidence that doesn't fit what their leaders tell them. Sound familiar?

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

There are ways to stop them, which might be useful in the scientific battles in the war against Christian supremacism. At the blog "Orcinus", Sara Robinson has two series about strategies that might help weaken authoritarian movements in the U.S. today.

"Cracks in the Wall" starts here:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-i-defining.html

And "Tunnels and Bridges" starts here:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/tunnels-and-bridges-part-i-divide-…

The left-hand column has links to all posts in these series.

and why the new atheism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Hmm.. I would like to call in and remind the host that the "new atheists" are not a threat to anything important.

Not a threat to Christianity, not a threat to Christians, not a threat to evangelism, not a threat to anyone's salvation...

Maybe a slight "threat" to the collection plate as some who were attending church from social pressure feel more comfortable about "coming out" with their atheism. But that is nothing to worry about--and having them out of the pews is better for everyone.

Hmmmm... I dunno! They may actually have a point. Whenever I hear faithful morons like Aikman, I feel an increasingly strong urge to just bash his head on the table until he stops spouting brainless crap.

Which makes me think: If we take it as a given that the tolerance limits of Atheists and "the faithful" for the amount of stupid babble to endure before actually resorting to violence is about the same, Atheists may really be more violent.
Simply because the faithful do more of that horribly stupid babbling.

The Delusion of Disbelief: Why the New Atheism is a Threat to Your Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

Maybe a good question for this guy would be, how does he explain that it is precisely in those countries which have the highest % of non believers such as in the Benelux, Scandinavia, France, Germany, Switzerland where they now account for a majority of the population, that according to neutral observers such as the UN one measures the best scores in terms of life expectancy, quality of life, healthcare, respect of human rights and individual liberties, level of violence...

That is a bit of a headache for his "theory" isn't it ?

"And someone really needs to fund a research project to study the effects of second-hand atheism."

ROFL!

(imaginary documentary narrative)

"Yeah, you know, some of my friends were doing it, and I said, yo, hook me up with some of that atheism you got there man. It was kind of cool at first, y'know, but then when I went to church next Sunday, the reverend just wasn't making any sense anymore. I thought I was trippin'! Then I asked my teacher why the pledge has 'under God' in it, and she asked me if I'd been trying atheism behind my parents' backs, and I looked down and said 'yeah', and how it made me feel good, not believing in scary shit like hell anymore...I tried to quit it, but I just couldn't fit my brain back into that tiny box called Religion anymore. The Reverend told all my church youth group friends to keep way from me, didn't want them suffering the effects of that second hand atheism, like I did..."

Seeing as nothing would make them happier than stoning Jezebels and burning infidels, of course people like us are a threat to their "pursuit of happiness.

I noticed, while Huckabee was still in the GOP race, that fundies use "liberty" as a dog-whistle term, they seem to use the term to mean "submission to the will of god" (never mind that that's precisely what "islam" means). What we would term "liberty" is "licentiousness" to them.

Would any other group accept this?

Find/Replace 1, Jews:
"David Aikman, Broadcast Journalist and Author will offer effective ways Christians can respond to the claims of Jews and why Judaism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Find/replace 2, African Americans:
"David Aikman, Broadcast Journalist and Author will offer effective ways Christians can respond to the claims of African Americans and why African Americans are a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Perhaps the Pharyngulites can do to Amazon reviews what they've been doing to online polls in recent days.

I would discourage people from doing that. I consider it unethical to file a review of a book I haven't even seen, let alone read.

Sorry for the OT comment, but has anyone noticed that over at UD DaveScot has gone completely off the reservation? Check out his comments on the last few posts he's made--he just about gives away the whole ID store. It will be interesting to see how Dembski and O'Leary deal with this.

To negentropyeater (#15), can you cite a source on that? I'm not challenging you or anything, I've been looking for a source for... well, for a while.

Also, I'm in central IL, but I want to listen to this. Or, even better, get a recording of it (on the free, can't be letting them get my money) and save it for the weekend, so I can get rip-roaring drunk and yell at the recording. Anyone have any tips?

How are the "new atheists" any different than the old ones?

Do they have 20% less fat?
Do they have better fuel efficiency?
Do they come a new set of standard features?

I am starting to think that it is all in the packaging.

#21, I think he may have been referring to this one:

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

I would discourage people from doing that. I consider it unethical to file a review of a book I haven't even seen, let alone read.

You can mark the various reviews as being helpful or not, with a clear conscience though. Some of the five star reviews look like Christian puff pieces to me, which is probably not helpful.

That is a bit of a headache for his "theory" isn't it ?

Yeah, no kidding. Perhaps "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is simply becoming Dominionist code for "Christian control over all aspects of public and private life." Or maybe it's code for "The imposition of lock-step conformity upon the citizenry by the Christian Elite."

In either case then yes, [New] {A|a}theism is a threat - but so is any non-Christian religion.

Have we arrived at the root of the "problem" yet?

*snicker*

Jason Failes @ #18 - You are right on the money...it's ok to say bad things about atheists, just don't question anybody's religion or skin color. Well said.

CL
http://www.coulterlewkowitz.com/

Is the new atheism like the old atheism? Has something changed over the past four hundred years or so? I must alert my family if that's the case, we can't stand to be out of the loop.

As for Jesus, whoever he may have been, if he was a real person and not just an allegory, I have no problem at all with the philosophy and in fact, I generally live by most of it.

If the so-called Xtians actually followed the tenets of their moral code, this would be a better place indeed.

I guess it's up to us atheists to be the bastions of morality in a depraved and decaying world, as usual.

I had always assumed that "New Atheism" referred to the ideas of modern western atheists, like humanism, skepticism, and criticism of religion as being opposed to those qualities. This distinguishes it from communist totalitarians, etc. and from a simple lack of belief in any god.

Aw, c'mon, people--don't you read Chick Tracts? We atheists are all planning to throw all Christians into re-education camps and force them to get gay abortions while brainwashing their children to worship our mother goddess, Satan.

Yes, it makes no sense, but in an abstract way, I suspect a lot of them really do think that. Maybe because that's equivalent to what they'd do, or simply because those are the sort of childrens' camp stories they get told.

We are the equivalent of those reptilian aliens from 'V', 'They Live' and David Ickes. We have incomprehensible hidden agendas from their point of view and cannot be trusted.

They run into dissonance if they actually meet one of us, but mostly they just get stories of supposed ex-atheists that reinforce the stories.

Steve "Not even gonna mention projection." James

will offer effective ways Christians can respond to the claims of atheists and why the new atheism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

First, the sentence doesn't cohere.

Second, this shows the value of the "new atheism," which is that it is a new and wonderful "threat" to which they can respond. In a sense, they've already abandoned the idea that atheism per se is a threat, which was a sad little, increasingly transparent, lie. But oh, Dawkins, Hitchens, Myers, they'll bring us the long-prophesied apocalypse. No, really. It's true this time.

Well, it's too boring to get into the specifics, which we didn't get anyhow. Perhaps best of all is the fact that Expelled seems to have been as quietly shelved as possible, because rather than opening up a new avenue of "witnessing," it's simply an issue filled with embarrassing moments and facts that just about everyone on their side, save Mathis & Co., would like to forget.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Chuck @ #9:

Perhaps the Pharyngulites can do to Amazon reviews what they've been doing to online polls in recent days.

I don't thing crashing the reviews is a good idea, though marking the puff pieces "not helpful" sounds right.

I've also been screwing with the tag system when I wander by the site, adding or promoting tags on religious nuttery like "fraud" "garbage" "mendacious intellectual porn" "creationist lies" "lying for jesus" and "waste of a good tree". A few of the ones promoting the Darwin -> Hitler fraud are tagged "Holocaust denial". Also, practically everything I can find by Ken Ham is now tagged "piglet rapist". :P

The fora there have some deeply delusional creationist idiots.

David Aikman, Broadcast Journalist and Author will offer effective ways Christians can respond to the claims of atheists and why the new atheism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Sort of an ominous title. What does Aikman propose to do with people who are a threat to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Herd them into concentration camps?

The rise of the Militant Atheists is directly due to humanoid toads like Falwell, Hagee, Robertson, Dobson, Kennedy who are in fact a threat. They seek to destroy the USA, set up a theocracy, and head on back to the Dark Ages. And says so often. And have made a good start.

Aikman is a professor at Patrick Henry College, an Xian school whose motto is "For Christ & For Liberty."

Here's an excerpt from an article on their site about one of his talks on "New Atheism":

He ended his lecture by making a direct connection between the Judeo-Christian worldview and freedom: "The only systems of government that have spontaneously created, then preserved, conditions both for religious freedom and then political freedom are those that have emerged from the Judeo-Christian tradition. The only true democracy in the Middle East is Israel, also a Jewish state."

Students found the experience intellectually stimulating, as always.

"I was really struck by [Dr. Aikman's] conclusion, that Christians are the ones out there making a difference in the world," shares Aubrey Waters, a junior. "The Bible says, 'you will be known by your fruits.' Christians and atheists live their lives in very different ways."

As a college student I find the fact that people are wasting their college educations in environments where they get no dissenting or challenging opinions really quite sad....

A PDF file of the speech is here, and they have posted an mp3 of it as well. Just in terms of speaking style, he sounds strangely similar to Francis Urquhart (the Conservative chief whip played by Ian Richardson in the wonderful BBC miniseries House of Cards).

I'm afraid we will all have to give up our atheism, be it new or old: Tom Disch, SF writer extraordinaire, has just revealed that he is God. As he is demonstrably real, rather than an imaginary friend, we should all go and worship him. And spread the Word.

I'm afraid we will all have to give up our atheism, be it new or old: Tom Disch, SF writer extraordinaire, has just revealed that he is God.

But he is gay! How can god be gay? Damn! We need Kenny to show up to straighten this out.

Hey, Kenny hasn't been around in a while... maybe he was RAPTURED!

Aikman is a professor at Patrick Henry College, an Xian school whose motto is "For Christ & For Liberty."
Etha Williams

This article is three years old but it does a fine job of explaining Patrick Henry College.

On a Wednesday afternoon, I sat in on a class on the Presidency. There were fourteen students, all of whom arrived on time and got out their laptops to take notes. Today, they were talking about Machiavelli. The professor, Robert Stacey, who has a trim ginger-colored beard and is a popular, lively teacher, pushed the students to think about Machiavelli's suggestion that leaders create fear to maintain their authority. He brought up the example of the federal raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, in 1993. One student asked, "Did they really represent such a big threat to our country?"

"No, but it unified the country, in an us-versus-them sort of way," another answered.

Then Stacey moved on to Machiavelli's principle that politics is governed by conspiracies and lies. "Come on, we know politicians lie," he began. "This is a bit sensitive. How about our beloved George W. Bush? Does he deceive us with what he says in public? Does he lie?"

The students, who had been fully engaged on the subject of Machiavelli and Waco, were silent. Bush has been President since they were teen-agers, and the school newspaper's editorials never deviate from the White House position. Finally, one student said, "No, I don't think so."

Stacey didn't say anything. After a pause, the student said, "I mean, it would be nice if he didn't."

All I could think of is the old Subgenius line;"You'll pay to pull the wool over your own eyes."

I'm afraid we will all have to give up our atheism, be it new or old: Tom Disch, SF writer extraordinaire, has just revealed that he is God.

No he isn't. Dan Bern is.

Ding-it! No one told me where to sign up for a gay abortion.

Glen #30: But don't the more extreme ones (and even some not so extreme) actually want the apocalypse, and the sooner the better? They should actually be thanking us atheists as our growing numbers actually signify the approaching "end days" which means they'll get raptured all the sooner.

I think we should try as much as possible to avoid the kind of "Us and them" scenario that seems to be emerging; we should avoid any antagonism towards them (i.e. don't play their game) and instead try as much as possible to encourage people to think for themselves and stop following the herd of mindless believers. Dawkins's "Out" campaign is the perfect vehicle for this passive stance - the more people that actually do "out" themselves, the less work we have to do settling silly straw man arguments. We have to stop arguing and focus on building bridges instead of walls.

I liked the Old Atheists so much better. The ones that cowered in their homes and didn't say anything.

"David Aikman, Broadcast Journalist and Author will offer effective ways Christians can respond to the claims of atheists"

Well, looking at the biography on his Web page (here), I don't see what credentials he has that would allow him to refute atheistic claims--that is unless we're claiming that Russian & French language/history and apes evolved from common ancestry. Are we claiming that? I didn't get my copy of "Beelzebub's Evolution Quarterly" last month. I think the Bushies have ordered evangelicals to infiltrate the Post Office and snuff out all periodicals except "Creation Research Society Quarterly". Yep, they've got a magazine. Here are the bullets at the top of their Web page...

* Published continuously since 1964
* Peer-reviewed by degreed scientists
* World-wide circulation
* Scholarly articles representing the major scientific disciplines
* Fresh perspectives on science and society as impacted by origins
* Emphasis on scientific evidence supporting: intelligent design, a recent creation, and a catastrophic worldwide flood

And the stupid just keeps on coming...

These people insist that I should grovel before their omnipotent monarch and do whatever he orders, then turn around and tell me that they are the ones who are in favor of democracy and freedom. Idiots.

#33, how does he resolve the notion of "freedom of religion" with the first commandment "have no other gods before me"? Also how does he justify the links between Christianity and democracy when 1) democracy does not appear in the bible 2) no Christian nations before the US were democracies?

I think we should try as much as possible to avoid the kind of "Us and them" scenario that seems to be emerging; we should avoid any antagonism towards them (i.e. don't play their game) and instead try as much as possible to encourage people to think for themselves and stop following the herd of mindless believers.

Seems to be emerging? Heh.

Well, I agree. Just about all the rest - alarmist talk of concentration camps and re-education centers, of putting christians/atheists to death, of psychopathology, of threats to life and liberty, are little more than provocative distractions - and what sorts of responses do provocations usually elicit?

What's needed is a sea change, a paradigm shift, away from superstition and towards rationality. That kind of thing can't be forced, any more than anyone can force Russia, China, Iran or Iraq directly from totalitarianism into some form of western-style democracy. What forces, other than education and time, can bring about such sweeping, profound changes?

What's so discouraging and troubling here in the USA is that we seem to be moving in the wrong direction.

D #21,

well, there are many ways to look at it, but I think the easiest way to refute the claim that atheism is a threat to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", using real data is to point to the fact that most of the top 10 countries according to the Human Development Index (Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Netherlands, France) also happen to be amongst the ones with the highest percentage of non believers (Sweden, Norway, Japan, France, Netherlands above 40% Canada, Switzerland, Australia, Iceland above 25% Ireland being the exception for the time being).

Sources :
Human Development Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Ind…
List of non believing countries
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

NB : I'm not trying to demonstrate causation here (Atheism causes a better life, happiness, etc...), just refute a claim (Atheism is a threat to life, liberty,...), so these counter examples are largely sufficient.

#33 Etha Williams,

You just keep hitting on all cylinders. I see a Molly in your immediate future.

This bit was very enlightening (if set about twenty years ago):

He ended his lecture by making a direct connection between the Judeo-Christian worldview and freedom: "The only systems of government that have spontaneously created, then preserved, conditions both for religious freedom and then political freedom are those that have emerged from the Judeo-Christian tradition. The only true democracy in the Middle East Africa is Israel South Africa, also a Jewish Christian state."

>new atheism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit
>of happiness.

I think they mean militant atheism like what you have in this forum and I agree. A regular atheist that is not millitant I don't have a problem with.

I don't think there is just one form of atheism, but at least two of them. I think one is okay to believe and the other more dangerous. The dangerous kind is being pushed by this blog/forum.

@#48 Kenny --

I think they mean militant atheism like what you have in this forum and I agree. A regular atheist that is not millitant I don't have a problem with.

I don't think there is just one form of atheism, but at least two of them. I think one is okay to believe and the other more dangerous. The dangerous kind is being pushed by this blog/forum.

Oh, Kenny. What dangerous, militant things are we doing? Crashing polls, expressing strong opinions, making fun of wacky superstitions, supporting separation of church and state...yes, I can see how these are very, very dangerous things indeed.

If we only all believed in an ancient book that promises eternal torment to unbelievers. The world would be such a better place!

Don't know why, but I took the time (time I'll never get back) to look at some of his articles published in Christianity Today. Here's just one.

What vapid bullshit.

I mean, it would be nice if he had something to say against atheism, rather than just all the hand-waving crap...

Being a teacher at Patrick Henry College can't have helped his counter-atheist tactics. His students have all signed the Statement of Faith, so he wouldn't come up against serious opposition in class.

By militant, Kenny means those atheists who actually talk about atheism and publicly identify as such. They use... sarcasm. They know all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. They're vicious.

I don't think there is just one form of atheism, but at least two of them. I think one is okay to believe and the other more dangerous. The dangerous kind is being pushed by this blog/forum.

What are the okay atheists like? Can you describe them to us?

@#50 Bob --

Don't know why, but I took the time (time I'll never get back) to look at some of his articles published in Christianity Today. Here's just one.

I particularly like the opening sentence:

You would have to have been hitchhiking across Siberia to have missed a striking new phenomenon: The atheists are back.

Putting aside the bizarre capitalization of "the" after the colon, the silly use of geographical imagery here seems to be inspired by the writing style of Buck Cameron, the Greatest Investigative Reporter of All Time in the Left Behind series:

To say the Israelis were caught off guard was like saying the Great Wall of China was long.

I noticed, while Huckabee was still in the GOP race, that fundies use "liberty" as a dog-whistle term, they seem to use the term to mean "submission to the will of god"...

"Family life, family values, decent normal family fun, family shopping, family leisure. The word is used these days as the word 'Aryan' was used in Germany in the 1930s. Anything that isn't family is unfamily, and anything that is unfamily is unrepresentative of the joyful majority."

-- Stephen Fry, 1993

>Hey, Kenny hasn't been around in a while... maybe he was
>RAPTURED!

I haven't been raptured yet. Have you been trying to learn to do something for others besides yourself yet? After all we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves. They are great critical thinkers on what is wrong with everyone else, but they are worthless as far as trying to help others out.

Will some one please tell me:

Where do they have democracy in the bible?
Where do they have capitalism in the bible?

And how did democracy and capitalism get to be so entangled with christianity?

thank you kindly

After all we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves.

God helps those that help themselves.

re: They use... sarcasm.

Just dropping in to admit that I'm one of the "new" (militant) atheists out to destroy life, liberty and happiness for Xians. Why I even have an EVOLVE fish on my car and I wrinkle my nose when I drive past the neighborhood churches with the stupid sayings on their signs (ala: God answers knee mail). So there Xians! Read my fish and die. And if my scrunched up visage when I drive by your church doesn't totally destroy you, I don't know what will. Gosh, I'm so dangerous.

Eat well, stay fit, Die Anyway.

>Oh, Kenny. What dangerous, militant things are we doing?
>Crashing polls, expressing strong opinions, making fun of
>wacky superstitions, supporting separation of church and
>state...yes, I can see how these are very, very dangerous
>things indeed.

This is where it all starts. For example we have kids who are atheists who burn down churches and synagogues. The violence has to start somewhere. Making fun of Jews is how The Holocaust started. You only have to look to history to understand how things like this progress.

What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death.

So, what you see as harmless is not harmless at all. It all starts simple and easy and then it gets into real discrimination against people who are religious.

>If we only all believed in an ancient book that promises
>eternal torment to unbelievers. The world would be such a
>better place!

Well it is what it is. It is your choice and you have made that choice. That choice you have made is between you and the God you don't WANT to exist. Well what you don't want doesn't matter. He is real just like you are real.

Everything you do in life either good or bad is being recorded. We have had people that have come back from being dead and told us this. It is being recorded as proof to back up your judgement so that everyone can see (besides God) and you will see how you treated people and how they felt when you hurt them. I don't care if you can't handle the truth, it is what it is.

That is also not just for you but me too. Everything in my life is also being recorded. I always don't do whats right, but I ask forgiveness from Christ.

I haven't been raptured yet.

maybe you just need some assistance?

hmm, I think i ran across an article about how to martyr yourself for your faith a while back...

This is where it all starts.

no, Kenny, THIS is where it all "starts":

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjneal/goering.jpg

sound familiar?

Everything in my life is also being recorded

damn that Bush and his illegal wiretapping!

Thanks Kseniya, you put it better than I could.

I said "seem to be emerging" as I have no real first-hand experience of any of this. I've never visited the U.S.; my point of view is based on the antagonism that occurs on the Internet and blogs such as this one. The situation may well be a lot worse than I perceive it - and that's bad enough.

I try to look at the big picture - take a "Hari Seldon psychohistory" approach and attempt to figure out where all this is leading. I summed up my opinions on the Skepchick blog a while ago - if I can find it I'll post a link here.

And how did democracy and capitalism get to be so entangled with christianity?

google Leo Strauss.

I think they mean militant atheism like what you have in this forum and I agree.

btw, Kenny, just because we make fun of you, it doesn't mean we care what you think.

why the new atheism is a threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

i thought it was the "Liberals" who were the threat to life, etc.

oh, i get it, next month:

Liberal=Atheist

so to complete the final chain:

Liberal=Atheist=Scientist=Darwin=Hitler

whee!

>By militant, Kenny means those atheists who actually talk
>about atheism and publicly identify as such.

No, it is a little more stronger than that. I mean look at the blog for example. I mean the disrespect of anyone who does not believe in the way you do. The persecution of Christians from the militant atheists in academia. The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

That is just right now. It's going to get a lot worse.

Matthew 10:22 (This is Jesus talking here)
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

A regular atheist that is not millitant I don't have a problem with. I don't think there is just one form of atheism, but at least two of them. I think one is okay to believe and the other more dangerous.

More penetrating insight from our Philostopher-in-Residence. As if from the great mind of Quentin Robert DeNameland, or Heidegger, or somebody. So, let's parse: At least two kinds of atheism. We'll call them "okay atheism" and "millitant atheism," in honor of the original spelling. The latter is "dangerous," the former Kenny doesn't have a problem with. It. What's the difference?? We all want to know, but Kenny is coy, apparently wanting us all to think about it and figure out his crucial distinction for ourselves. Kenny, maybe some Socratic dialogue on the subject later?

we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves. They are great critical thinkers on what is wrong with everyone else, but they are worthless as far as trying to help others out.

Yes, yes...these are things we all know. Wait, Kenny, is that true of the okay atheists too? And selfish Christians? Where do they fit into your ingenious scheme?

What are the okay atheists like? Can you describe them to us?

Well, Madelyn Murray O'Hair was an okay atheist, because she got what she deserved. But Dawkins and Hitchens stubbornly refuse to be murdered, so they're mean.

[/bad taste]

The persecution of Christians from the militant atheists in academia. The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

[citation needed]

No, wait, don't bother. You're just making shit up again for Jeebus.

Elwood #64, that sounds interesting. Please post or post link.

Making fun of Jews is how The Holocaust started. You only have to look to history to understand how things like this progress. What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death. So, what you see as harmless is not harmless at all. It all starts simple and easy and then it gets into real discrimination against people who are religious.

It's a slippery slope, people. From "making fun of" straight to Zyklon B, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 deutschmarks. We cannot let the wedge of the homosexual agenda be inserted any further into our beloved national asscrack! That way lies death...think of the Kinder!!

Everything you do in life either good or bad is being recorded. We have had people that have come back from being dead and told us this.

People have died and seen Santa Claus? Hey, how big are those elves, really?

The persecution of Christians from the militant atheists in academia. The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

Kenny, do me a favor and google up a couple of specific examples for me please? I'm pretty busy over here making fun of believers and designing gas chambers.

I mean the disrespect of anyone who does not believe in the way you do.

nope.

just disrespect of the blatantly stupid and dishonest.

Scott Hatfield

http://monkeytrials.blogspot.com/

is a xian we respect (in fact, he has a Molly here)

Ken Miller is a xian we respect.

you, regardless of what religion you claim for yourself, are not respected.

that you can't seem to figure out why is both humorous and tragic, which of course makes for great comedy.

>Yes, yes...these are things we all know. Wait, Kenny, is
>that true of the okay atheists too? And selfish
>Christians? Where do they fit into your ingenious scheme?

Yes, there are Christians who can be selfish as well. However, if you actually look outside and look at this country and third world countries a lot of Christians are doing work by sending money or even going further than that they are helping get food, water, shelter, and education for people who need it. There are many Christian organizations that do this.

Like I said, I have not see many atheists do anything other than pat their own back and really what good do they do for human kind other than try to get rid of the "ignorance they call religion".

If dawkins or the author of this blog never were born, really how would people's lives have changed for the negative? I am sure people will respond and say well they changed my life because they got me out of the church, but really where you ever even with the church to begin with? Is it so bad?

I don't see most atheists helping humankind at all. In fact, I think they are a negative on people. They talk a lot of garbage but what good do they do?

Sorry guys but I have my doubts about atheists.

Where's my rubber hammer? I have a point to make.

best you could do is dull the point on top of his head.

"How many lumps do you want, kenny?"

(OK, that might be an obscure Looney Tunes reference)

People have died and seen Santa Claus? Hey, how big are those elves, really?

They look like PYGMIES + DWARFS!!!

Kenny @60:

For example we have kids who are atheists who burn down churches and synagogues.

References?

but really where you ever even with the church to begin with? Is it so bad?

yes, it is. Especially for folks like you, Kenny.

it wasn't so bad for us.
we left, remember?

which either means we weren't exposed to the kind of cult programming you were, or else were smart enough to figure it out before it was too late.

It's sad watching you play the good little cult member.

but funny.

Building on/replying to posts #3 and #13,

Athiests pose a threat to any group that tries to win converts by convincing people religion is necessary. The mere existence of happy, moral athiests living in civil order in a secular society refutes their argument, so the mere presense of athiests tends to enrage some fundamentalists.

Its the same basic reason why authoritarian governments very often clamp down on information about the US and the outside world. Our mere existence refutes their argument that authoritarian control is necessary for civil order or a prosperous society.

Sometimes these are one and the same: cult messiahs limit their followers' access to the outside world because the outside world contains living, breathing counterexamples to many of their arguments.

Eric

Making fun of Jews is how The Holocaust started.

And making fun of blondes is the beginning of Blondocaust.

Found it - this page, comment #9

about church burnings...

Kenny, read this from the CSmonitor (that's acceptable media for your ilk, yes?):

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0208/p02s01-ussc.html

"If you burn a church and nobody's there, then it's not murder, it's a message," says Joe Barnhart, a religious studies professor at the University of North Texas. "Because we do have freedom of religion, consequently it sends a double message: Even as religion binds people together it also often alienates people."

think about that:

"religion alienates people."

now go back through the article.

nowhere in that article does even the CSmonitor suggest the cause of the church arsons was due to atheism.

why do YOU think it is so?

you're utterly fubar in the head, bud.

>What are the okay atheists like? Can you describe them to >us?

Atheists that respect other people and their beliefs. They are not militant, they don't tell people that they are stupid or ignorant because they believe another way. They have tolerance for others who may believe different than them. They can talk about how they feel without the need to put others down.

It's really not hard. My wife has a family member and they are an Atheist, but we get along with him. We acknowledge how he feels and he can understand where we are coming from. Basically, the exact opposite from this place.

And making fun of blondes is the beginning of Blondocaust.

Why was I not made aware of the Blondocaust? Now I feel like my whole secular-homo-fascist-liebrul-public education was a lie...

And what about those citations, evil kenny? Evidence or GTFO.

Everyone knows Kenny is a serial killer who rapes his victims' children and eats them.

What, it's no more dishonest than anything he's said! When you judge assholes like this by their own standards, they tend to start whining about how unfair it is. But that never stops them from Lying For Jesus™, now does it?

It's not my fault Kenny's moral compass points straight to the gutter.

DAMN YOU WINDY FOR STEALING THE EXACT JOKE I WAS GONNA MAKE!

"What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death."

That's funny, I could have sworn that this thread had nothing to do with homosexuality. What's with your hangup with gays, Kenny?

"but really where you ever even with the church to begin with? Is it so bad?"

You sure love making baseless assumptions about us, don't you Kenny? I suppose I could reply that I did go to church nearly every weekend for almost 18 years, and yes, it was bad, it was the low point of my week, a pointless bunch of forced rituals and putting on a show for the community, coupled with Bible verses condoning misogyny and other outmoded social mores. But then you'd say that I wasn't "really with the church". You could essentially define it away to the point that leaving the church at all means they weren't True Scotsmen.

"I don't see most atheists helping humankind at all."

Yes, we know that you're incredibly cloistered with regards to what information you take from the world around you (witness your continuing ignoring of any counter-claims we have to your beloved NDE argument and stories of people's NDEs conforming with the non-Christian religion that they were actually brought up in), so we're not surprised that you can't conceive of atheists doing any good.

They are not militant, they don't tell people that they are stupid or ignorant because they believe another way.

denial's a wonderful defense mechanism, ain't it cult-boy?

Kenny, see the difference between a blog and a wife's family member?

The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

Oh, this again. You refuse to learn, don't you? And you wonder why the respect you so desperately crave isn't flowing your way.

I challenge you to demonstrate that atheism was a motivating factor in any significant percentage of church arson cases. I belive instead that you will find that many were either racially motivated, or the work of young, poor, uneducated idiot drunks with too much time on their hands and too much pent-up frustration looking for an outlet, but with no particular axe to grind.

"They can talk about how they feel without the need to put others down."

You ought to give that a try.

>"Because we do have freedom of religion, consequently it
>sends a double message: Even as religion binds people
>together it also often alienates people."

The sad thing is that I wasn't even talking about this one. I was talking about another series of church burnings because an atheist kid on a forum told the forum that he was going to burn down a bunch of churches because he didn't believe in them. The kid posted on a forum (yeah, real smart) and he was not a new member but one that was known to be part of the atheistic group on the forum. He got caught and the forum was used as evidence.

I don't know about the ones you posted though. Here is the sad thing. Burning a church is not considered freedom of religion. If you want to send a message I think you can do it a better way than destroying someone else's property.

Religion can divide people too, yes that is true. However, anything in life that has humans involved can divide people. I mean atheism also can divide people too (Just like my wife's relative).

So the one that is fubared in the head is you.

It's really not hard. My wife has a family member and they are an Atheist, but we get along with him.

"Hey, I'm no racist! I have friends who are black!"

I was talking about another series of church burnings because an atheist kid on a forum told the forum that he was going to burn down a bunch of churches because he didn't believe in them.

LOL

hey Kenny:

tomorrow, I'm going to burn your house down.

see if I don't!

muhahahahaha!

I mean atheism also can divide people too (Just like my wife's relative).

uh huh. who was causing the division again, there, bright boy?

him, or YOU.

>"Hey, I'm no racist! I have friends who are black!"

Well, nice try to post a point that really doesn't make sense at all. Atheists are supposed to be smarter than everyone else? (Well that is what they tell themselves at least).

fun with the godly loons, indeed.

keep going, Kenny.

You're fleshing the topic of this thread out quite nicely.

I mean atheism also can divide people too (Just like my wife's relative).

because we all know that atheists reproduce asexually by binary fission all the time. (When they can take time out from their busy schedules of burning churches, making fun of blondes, and gassing strong homophobic christians.)

"no Christian nations before the US were democracies?" - Alverant@44

Wrong: the Republic of Tavolara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavolara) was the first independent state to grant universal suffrage, in 1886. New Zealand (autonomous but not fully sovereign at the time) did so in 1893, Norway in 1913, Denmark in 1915, a whole slew of European countries in 1918-19, and the tardy USA, I'm afraid, only in 1920. (But you did beat the UK: 1928.) If you just mean "lots of people could vote" then Sweden (1720) and Corsica (1755) both anticipated the USA.

>uh huh. who was causing the division again, there, bright
>boy?
>him, or YOU.

You missed the entire point there "not so bright boy".
The division is with his own group of people. He does not like it when his fellow atheists have to put down people to prove their point. He does not believe in God, but he does not like people trying to put down others for not believing. He says that there is a lack of tolerance by some in his own group.

I might not agree with him on his belief that there is no God, but you know what. He respects my wife and I and that is a good thing and I respect him.

But that is nothing to worry about--and having them out of the pews is better for everyone.

right on, Heddley!

next time you're at church, I think you should stand up, and attempt to root out the closet-atheists so you can have a purer strain of aryans calvinists at your church.

In fact, you'd be doing everybody a favor.

just don't be surprised when you're the only one left.

To negentropyeater (#46):
Thanks! I actually don't need any convincing, I'm totally with you on this. I just wasn't able to find the source to back that up to save my life. I remembered reading about it in either The End of Faith or Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, or Dawkins' The God Delusion (maybe even A Devil's Chaplain), but couldn't find the passage and thus couldn't look up what was cited.

Basically, some jerk on my LJ wanted to argue that religion had an overall positive influence on society. I wanted to find the source so I could show him that, ceteris paribus, dropping religion correlates with a healthier society. Now I have some empirical evidence to back it up! Thanks again!

To Kenny (#60):
You wrote, "What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death. So, what you see as harmless is not harmless at all. It all starts simple and easy and then it gets into real discrimination against people who are religious."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. First, Christians who let "teh gheyz" do their thing are not "less strong," but more tolerant and better people for it. You specifically mentioned being "put to jail for their hate crimes" - to the extent that we're talking about crimes, then yes, they should be prosecuted accordingly. And what will no longer be tolerated at the end of your slippery slope is not religion, but bigotry. Replace homosexuals with blacks, and it would sound like you want to bring back lynch mobs and make the KKK more socially acceptable.

And you claim that you're the one being persecuted here? I think I just puked a little.

It's really not hard. My wife has a family member and they are an Atheist, but we get along with him. We acknowledge how he feels and he can understand where we are coming from. Basically, the exact opposite from this place.

("They"? I thought you said one.)

Answer me this, Kenny. Don't you recall your first days here? You basically led off with "atheists have no morals" and took it from there. Am I mistaken? If not, then can you at least be honest enough to acknowledge that much, please?

He respects my wife and I and that is a good thing and I respect him.

you don't understand the meaning of respect. Fuck, you don't understand anything you've ever posted about here, why am I isolating respect from everything else I have no idea.

seriously.

for the last time.

tolerance/=respect

you're not doing "your side" any credit.

Is that your goal?

are you a loki-troll, really TRYING to make xianity look ignorant, stupid, and a dangerous cult?

'cause you're doing a great job of it.

>You sure love making baseless assumptions about us, don't
>you Kenny?

If it was baseless then where did I get all my content from. This blog and your posts are a goldmine and no assumptions have to be made.

Do you honestly read the things that you right? That is gold material right there.

If it was baseless then where did I get all my content from.

you mean the content everyone keeps asking you for and you never, ever provide?

the content your fevered little brain keeps making up on the fly, and translating to "Truth"?

that content?

yes, Kenny, your mind is fubar.

Why must I be stuck in boring classes when Kenny comes out to play? Why?!

Oh well. 1.5 hours of music composition left and I will be free for the next four days...

we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves

Yeah, like that selfish bastard Warren Buffett - I mean, he actually had the nerve to keep almost 15% of his wealth when he donated 30 billion dollars to charity.

Or Bill Gates, who only gave a paltry 11 billion dollars towards charitable ends.

Throw in Andrew Carnegie, and three of the four biggest philanthropists in the entire history of this country are atheists and agnostics.

Michael H. Steinhardt, Ted Turner, Robert W. Wilson, ah, who the hell do I think I'm fooling? Even if you actually read this you'll surely invent some arcanely twisted logic to keep yourself in denial

>you don't understand the meaning of respect. Fuck, you
>don't understand anything you've ever posted about here,
>why am I isolating respect from everything else I have no
>idea.

Dictionary.com
Respect:
deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment:

My wife and I have a right to believe in God, and he respects that right as a courtesy. He might not believe in the way we do, but he is okay with it.

Now, I am sure he would not be okay with me trying to force my beliefs on him like you all think Christians do, but we do not do that. We would not want that. That is not the way it should be done. God does not want that. God wants you to come to him and not be forced, because then it would not be you coming to him. So, you should NEVER force your beliefs on anyone.

Kenny, what are you doing here?
Seriously. Are you trying to accomplish something? Are you a glutton for punishment? What's your deal?

My wife and I have a right to believe in God

nobody, anywhere, ever said you didn't.

try re-reading #74, as I'm tired of repeating myself to a Vancome lady clone.

when thinking of charitable atheists, don't forget Angelina Jolie.

http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/2-angelina-jolie

Hey, they pwned Kenny! You bastards!

Kenny: I think it's time to catch up on this statement you made yesterday:

"Probably not since the ACLU only protects Atheists and liberals. It wasn't always that way, but it is now."

This is manifestly untrue. Are you willing to admit that you were mistaken? Several people over on that thread called you a liar over that statement, but I defended you on the assumption that you were merely misinformed. Was I wrong to do so?

Oh well. 1.5 hours of music composition left

Oooh. How's your music comp class? (Boring? Say it ain't so!) What kind of stuff are you doing?

Okay, *NOW* can I call Kenny a liar? He just refuses to learn anything, doesn't he?

Either that, or he's one of the better Poe's I've seen.

Either that, or he's one of the better Poe's I've seen.

more like Loki-troll than poe, if that.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=loki+troll

either way, it makes him a liar.

not that whether he is a liar or not is really even important to the fact that he presents obviously erroneous and idiotic drivel at every given opportunity.

However, a good loki troll presents INTELLIGENT arguments in favor of his false position.

no, Kenny is no loki troll. He's the real deal. the very result of the fundagelical cult in America that has been turning people into creobots for a hundred years now.

What kind of stuff are you doing?

wait, wait...lemme guess:
Voice-leading in four-part harmony of the Common Practice *yawn* Period.

Watch those parallel fifths! Oh, and beware The Devil!!!

I love how fundies think nothing of "bringing the gospel to all nations," but when one of them voluntarily spouts god-bothering nonsense at a venue known to be populated primarily with unbelievers, and consequently gets his ass handed to him, WE'RE the ones forcing our beliefs on people.

"Come see the violence inherent in the system!"

>This is manifestly untrue. Are you willing to admit that
>you were mistaken? Several people over on that thread
>called you a liar over that statement, but I defended you
>on the assumption that you were merely misinformed. Was I
>wrong to do so?

How am I a liar? That is my OPINION. Everytime I see a case that the ACLU has it is always anti-Christian. That is a lot of cases. I don't trust them. Whenever I read about someone who does something in a school or in a lot of places I read about the ACLU coming in and going against the person who is trying to show their faith. Like for example, one kid who painted a picture of a cross and it had a Bible verse on it, this kid was punished because he did not take off the Bible verse and change the picture. The ACLU was for the teacher and the students but not for the kid.

Like I said it is my opinion that they started off right for rights for anyone, but now it is anti-Christian. This is my opinion based on almost all of the cases that I can remember them being in lately.

This is the last post before I go to work. Just so that nobody gets all upset that their posts were not answered....

Yet again Kenny, you call for respect and tolerance but you seem to forget about the intolerance and disrespect that many of your fellow Christians repeatedely demonstrate vis a vis homosexuals, women who choose to abort, non believers, etc...
Also, I don't think anybody has ever suggested here that you or any other american do not have the right to believe in God. But it has been suggested by some of your fellow Christians that American citizenship and atheism could not be combined.
So please, when you preach tolerance, drink a glass of milk before...

Kenny is the least intelligent person ever to post more than twice on Pharyngula. He wears tight-whites and seldom washes them. He hates kittens and babies and his wife is imaginary.
That is my OPINION.

"If it was baseless then where did I get all my content from. This blog and your posts are a goldmine and no assumptions have to be made."

The assumption that I was specifically attacking was this one, which I even quoted in the very post to which you're replying:

" If dawkins or the author of this blog never were born, really how would people's lives have changed for the negative? I am sure people will respond and say well they changed my life because they got me out of the church, but really where you ever even with the church to begin with? Is it so bad?"

Completely baseless, unless you count your own fever dreams of atheists as a base. Many of us used to belong to a church in every sense of the word.

And then there's that wonderful assumption that atheists are selfish and never help anyone. Also baseless. Read Kseniya's comments on Hurricane Katrina to see how baseless it is, and why we all consider you to be such a contemptible toad with no higher ground from which to judge us.

Now, I am sure he would not be okay with me trying to force my beliefs on him like you all think Christians do, but we do not do that. We would not want that. That is not the way it should be done.

then take a road trip to Florida, Kansas and Texas, and tell your comrades-in-arms to stop trying to change the fucking laws to get your nonsense taught as science to our kids.

Instead of berating atheists, who really don't give a shit WHAT you think, why aren't you berating your fellow xians for doing exactly what you think shouldn't be done.

I'll tell you why. In fact, your beliefs were obviously forced on you by your parents and your peers, you just are too far gone to even remember any more. So, instead of challenging the very thing that made you what you are, and in fact does the very thing you decry, you project it onto those you feel your 'enemy', because that is what you have been told, not because there is any evidence whatsoever to support it.

like i said, I have no respect for you Kenny, not because you "believe", but because you have no respect for yourself.

the sad thing is, I don't really think you even CAN have respect for yourself. It's been drummed out of you quite deliberately, and the anger you project on to us is most likely your own internalized anger at being turned into a mindless zombie.

That is my OPINION.

and you have every right to it...

did you see the George Carlin special "It's Bad For Ya"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm-Mi1_lLo0

Kenny:

How am I a liar? That is my OPINION

Exactly my point, and that is why I defended you. I believe that you had made a statement you believed was true, and therefore you had not knowingly lied.

However, either way - you were wrong. Do I have to say it more than once? A little voice whispering in my ear is telling me "Yes, yes, three times yes." You were wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG. You made an erroneous claim, and evidence has been supplied to show that it was erroneous, and now it is you responsibility to examine the evidence and reevaluate your position on the claim you made, and to adjust your thinking accordingly. Anything less will be intellectually dishonest.

Whatever you THINK is beside the point. Opinions aren't facts. The facts prove that your statement was false. End of argument. All that remains is for you to respond appropriately. I hope that's clear enough.

Okay, *NOW* can I call Kenny a liar? He just refuses to learn anything, doesn't he?

Lance, you can do whatever you like. ;-)

Hold off a bit, though. We'll see how (heck, if) he responds to this ACLU thing.

yeah, and you might want to clarify your position on kittens and babies too.

This is my opinion based on almost all of the cases that I can remember them being in lately.

anecdotes instead of evidence.

intuition based conclusions.

yup, you're a fine example of cultism.

why do you hate America, Kenny?

Hey Kenny...get fucked! Though it's tacky to list one's "good deeds", I feel I must point out that this atheist sponsors two children in third world countries (run by a Christian charity, no less) and contributes money regularly to other charities. I also volunteer my time at a local retirement home when possible. I consider these deeds to be helping others. So, bite me. Idiot.

There, you can cross off that fallacy from you list of atheist misdemeanors.

Also, in studying the causes of the holocaust in my history major at uni I don't recall "making fun of" the Jews as being a possibility. D'oh...don't know how we missed that one.

aw. I think Kenny really did go to work.
Fun's over.

@#60 Kenny --

Making fun of Jews is how The Holocaust started.

I thought it was atheistic Darwinists. It's getting harder and harder to keep track of my Holocaust scapegoat-of-the-day lately...

What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death.

The same way people who weren't strong Christians stopped saying that interracial marriage was a sin because they didn't want to be treated unfairly? It is sad how religious people eventually catch up with the more progressive secular morality of the day, isn't it?

And did you just say "strong" Christians would be committing hate crimes? Because that's...wow. Pretty vile. Though FTR I don't support capital punishment, ever.

Everything you do in life either good or bad is being recorded.

Why bother? As an unbeliever, I'm going to hell either way. Seems like a waste of time and recording material to me.

I always don't do whats right, but I ask forgiveness from Christ.

Ummm...I think you meant I don't always do what's right...still, the unintentional alteration in meaning caused by your mistaken word order is pretty hilariously ironic.

Ok Kenny, if I promise not to make fun of you, will you provide some facts about your statements or admit you were wrong about the ACLU?

Whether you do provide or admit, therapy is well worth the money spent on it. My opinion, banging your head here everyday and providing entertainment and/or a whetstone for the already sharp wits here is not doing you any good.

Well, off to boil kittens and then poison the broth so I can feed it to homeless people. Nothing can stop me from doing it. After all, Kenny told me I have no morals since I don't believe in god, so it is ok. Screw the homeless this year, someone else can help run the shelter.

Ciao

@#68 Kenny --

No, it is a little more stronger than that. I mean look at the blog for example. I mean the disrespect of anyone who does not believe in the way you do.

I respect you on a basic level as a fellow human being who has the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (to come back a bit to the OP). Beyond that, respect must be earned, and you haven't done much to earn it. I certainly don't respect your beliefs, which are not only superstitious nonsense but also impinge dangerously on others' rights to liberty and pursuit of happiness. (Your "strong" Christian beliefs against homosexuality, for example.)

Also, speaking of disrespect, who was it that said this:

After all we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves.

Hold on...I think it starts with a "K"...ends with an "enny"....

Back to your persecution fantasy:

The persecution of Christians from the militant atheists in academia. The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

Examples, please? Preemptively -- let's avoid the oft-debunked Expelled allegations, okay? And avoiding "just google it" would be helpful too.

That is just right now. It's going to get a lot worse.

Only in your perverted, masochistic fantasy world.

That is just right now. It's going to get a lot worse.

from Kenny's PoV, I can surely imagine this is an accurate reflection of how he feels.

yup, we're going to keep putting more and more pressure on your cult, and the damage it is doing.

yes, i rather think, like any good cult member, you won't like having the light of day shone on your irrational self-reinforcing nonsense.

Indeed, one can only HOPE it's going to get a lot worse, if not in the way you think.

Yes, Kenny, you are absolutely right to think a tiny group of atheists will persecute your idiocy.

Run! Hide! the atheists are gonna get ya!

moron.

OTOH, as the old saying goes, "someday your kids will thank us"

@#75 Kenny --

but really where you ever even with the church to begin with? Is it so bad?

Yes, and yes.

I don't see most atheists helping humankind at all.

Then you're obviously wearing the same god-goggles of projection and denial that you wear while reading the Bible...and while looking at evolutionary theory...and while googling....

...and while googling....

...and when thinking about the ACLU...

let's just abbreviate it as "everything".

Kenny, I am confused:

#84:

My wife has a family member and they are an Atheist, but we get along with him.

But:

#56:

After all we all know that the only people that atheists help are themselves.

And:

#75:

Sorry guys but I have my doubts about atheists.

Does your wife's family member know you feel this way? I have a feeling if she did, you might not get along so well anymore....

@#99 Kenny --

He respects my wife and I and that is a good thing and I respect him.

...right up until the point when you're watching from heaven while he suffers eternal torment, I suppose....

Re #137. Ah, but Kenny only dislikes uppity atheists - he has no problem at all with atheists who know their place!

Do you honestly read the things that you right?

Nope. Do you wrong the things that you red?

@#108 Kenny --

So, you should NEVER force your beliefs on anyone.

Kenny, if you think not respecting your beliefs is the same as trying to force our beliefs on you, that says a lot about your conviction of your "faith." We respect your right to practice your religion, but don't see it as being immune to ridicule. If that feels like we're "forcing" our beliefs on you just by ridiculing yours, maybe you should take a closer look at those beliefs.

@#114 Kseniya and #117 Sven DiMilo --

Just finished four-part harmony, actually. Now doing modal harmony and nifty harmonies using pentatonic, whole-tone, and octatonic scales.

I like the subject, but after about an hour, the class itself begins to get a bit dull...

What is going to happen is that there are people who are not strong Christians who will stop saying that homosexuality is a sin because they don't want to get treated unfairly and the ones that do think it is a sin will be mocked at first and then put to jail for their hate crimes and then later on put to death.

So, by not being intolerant of homosexuality, we're persecuting Christians.

Atheists that respect other people and their beliefs. They are not militant, they don't tell people that they are stupid or ignorant because they believe another way. They have tolerance for others who may believe different than them. They can talk about how they feel without the need to put others down.

But you don't need to tolerate homosexuals, eh? In fact, tolerating homosexuals is bad eh, Kenny?

Thou hypocrite!

You are a repugnant perversion of a human mind, Kenny. You are a real waste of human flesh. A malign fucking tumour on the face of humanity. A repulsive, disgusting, piece of shit.

For everyone's sake, it is a very lucky happenstance that you are not an in-law in my family. You may consider that a miracle, if you wish.

Etha,

because there are good Atheists, with a capital A, who Kenny likes because they keep their mouths shut or even better, pretend they are "cultural Christians", and there are bad atheists,minuscule a, who Kenny despises because they are militant or have unacceptable sexual mores or are embryo killers.
So it's ok with atheists if they keep quiet and look like good christians...

@#139 Nick Gotts --

Re #137. Ah, but Kenny only dislikes uppity atheists - he has no problem at all with atheists who know their place!

Their place? Ah, of course -- you mean that place.

I'm thinking PZ is moving up the Power Rankings. He's already one of the most powerful men in science with all of us doing his bidding (crashing polls, interviews...) KKMS needs to start scheduling their atheism- or evolution-bashing interviews around PZ's schedule, like when he's out of the country.

Today: Minnesota. Tomorrow...

My my my...aren't we a bunch of tolerant atheists tonight...How mature.

My my my...aren't we a bunch of tolerant atheists tonight...How mature.

I'm sorry wtf. Would you prefer we indulged in gay-bashing like Kenny and the Christians?

Never mind. Why do I keep asking you clones questions I already know the answer to?

I'm sorry wtf. Would you prefer we indulged in gay-bashing like Kenny and the Christians?

Kenny & the Christians were bashing gays? I must've missed it. Do tell.

My my my...aren't we a bunch of tolerant atheists tonight...How mature.

Well, we aren't very tolerant of complete horseshit, no. But considering our idea of "fun" was to challenge these professed experts to open dialogue, I would say it was quite mature, anyway. Do you have anything to offer besides empty whines expressed poorly?

Kenny & the Christians were bashing gays? I must've missed it. Do tell.

Try reading upthread, idiot.

(Hmph. Want us to do all the work for him. Must be an ID proponent.)

So, by not being intolerant of homosexuality, we're persecuting Christians.

not only that, but according to Robertson, Falwell, and the like, we are the ones responsible for 9/11... because we didn't hang teh gays, ya see.

for I'm sure the 1 millionth time, here are Robertson and Falwell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I

(Hmph. Want us to do all the work for him. Must be an ID proponent.)

it's the Demski excuse:

"We don't need your pathetic level of detail."

He always forgets the second half of that:

"We started with our conclusions!"

Hey look, it's another Joe Blow clone. Hi, Joe!

Try reading upthread, idiot.

I did, Brown-noser. There's nothing of the sort you describe there. Maybe you need to learn how to read.

Hey look, it's another Joe Blow clone. Hi, Joe!

Hey, look, it's another PZ Myers sock puppet (or two, or three, or...) Hi, PZ!

Nope. Do you wrong the things that you red?

ouch, that hurt my brain trying to figure out if that was actually parsable.

and yes, in a way it is.

think: McCarthy.

He indeed wronged the things that he "red" (as in painted red).

and, strangely enough, I'd bet Kenny, or at least his parents, were McCarthy apologists.

Sorry wtf. I didn't realise you were on our side.

I did, Brown-noser.

then yer fookin blind, or drunk.

see #60:

that said, Kenny's homophobia (and atheistphobia) has been a running theme since he first started posting here.

that you choose to jump into shark infested waters after having put a blindfold on isn't our problem, it's yours.

and the "clever" anagrams of other posters is a clear indication that this is Joe.

care to cop to it?

Hey, look, it's another PZ Myers sock puppet (or two, or three, or...) Hi, PZ!

yer banned, moron.

I guess you don't realize that your IP is trackable, and someone could report you to your internet provider for abusive posting behavior?

I wonder how you will be able to scream "victim" with no vocal chords?

then yer fookin blind, or drunk.

Yes, you are, aren't you?

Kenny's homophobia

All of his fears are the same? How could this be?

and the "clever" anagrams of other posters is a clear indication that this is Joe.

And your obnoxiousness is a clear indication that this is PZ. Care to cop to it, sock puppet boy?

Kenny @68:

The burning of churches from people who are atheists.

I thought that was mostly members of Norweigian Black Metal bands and
people in the KKK. In neither category do you find much in the way of atheism.

Sorry wtf. I didn't realise you were on our side.

???

wtf=Some Dude=banned

@#162:

I gave him the link to the CSmonitor's own analysis of the instances of church burnings.

he didn't accept that the largest xian online media didn't think it had anything to do with atheism either.

facts are irrelevant to him, witness the ACLU reaction as well.

no doubt, a month or two from now, he will somehow convince himself that it's the ACLU itself that is behind the church burnings.

...and he wonders why we think cult behavior is dangerous.

yer banned, moron.

I'm not in any band, as far as I know. And no, I haven't been banned either, except in your wet dreams.

I guess you don't realize that your IP is trackable,

Oh now you're an IT expert. I'm impressed. Not.

and someone could report you to your internet provider for abusive posting behavior?

Ooooh, I'm scared. Considering some of the bile that you have vomited forth, you have a lot more to worry about in terms of "abusive posting behavior" than do I. But then again, you're a sock puppet, aren't you?

I wonder how you will be able to scream "victim" with no vocal chords?

Sounds like a threat to me. Maybe I'll call your ISP.

LOL.

And no, I haven't been banned either, except in your wet dreams.

yes, of course, calling me a sockpuppet of PZ is entirely out of left field...

go look at the writing on the walls of your dungeon cell, moron.

Oh now you're an IT expert. I'm impressed. Not.

don't have to be an expert to figure out how to do it; it's in the logs for the website.

really.

if you have a website, you can see for yourself.

btw, did you like the color curtains we chose for you?

oh, that's right... you wanted venetian blinds.

sorry, still out of stock.

Yeah, Ichthyic, but he's the perfect straw-man IDiot--well, they all are, but he exemplifies their lack of content and whiny persecution complex.

If we're lucky, he'll make a movie.

yes, of course, calling me a sockpuppet of PZ is entirely out of left field...

No, it's entirely out of the facts of your troll-like behavior and how you conveniently agree with everything out of his mouth.

don't have to be an expert to figure out how to do it; it's in the logs for the website.

Web sites don't have logs, moron, servers do. And what's in the log depends on a multitude of settings. One thing they would be able to confirm is that you=PZ, unless you erased them, of course.

you wanted venetian blinds

I have nothing against the people of Venice, and I certainly would not want any of them to lose their sight.

Ah, I see where you were going with it.

OTOH, he's worse than Kenny. he's like a 5 year old who refuses to go to his room for breaking the house rules.

I'm sure if PZ wasn't busy grading exams, he would have already disemvoweled him.

it really does nothing for any debate, because he never makes any substantive comments to begin with.

It's just an irritant, and entirely intended as such.

It's not even related to what Voltaire said, it's more in the "not even wrong" category.

for example, what on earth would he make a movie about?

how to whine like an infant?

for example, what on earth would he make a movie about?

how to whine like an infant?

Stein did, and look how that turned out.

for example, what on earth would he make a movie about?

how to whine like an infant?

After observing your frequent tantrums you've given me all kinds of material.

Stein did, and look how that turned out.

touche.

Lance, you can do whatever you like. ;-)

Hold off a bit, though.

Okay... I'll wait for a bit. I'm a patient guy... sort of...

Kenny, I also remember the case you are discussing. A student painted a religious picture in art class, and the teacher told him he could not use religious themes in class. See here for the ACLU's position on this sort of issue. The relevant bit:

Students may express their religious beliefs in the form of reports, homework and artwork, and such expressions are constitutionally protected. Teachers may not reject or correct such submissions simply because they include a religious symbol or address religious themes. Likewise, teachers may not require students to modify, include or excise religious views in their assignments, if germane. These assignments should be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance, relevance, appearance and grammar.

The ACLU never got involved in the case you mentioned, because they were never asked to get involved. the ACLJ took the case to court, and the school lost (and rightly so).

Wrong again, Kenny boy. Wanna try again?

It's just another obnoxious morphing troll with nothing to say worth listening to. Ignore it.

wtf:

Web sites don't have logs, moron, servers do. And what's in the log depends on a multitude of settings.

Oh, a pedant as well. OK, let's look into the distant mists of history (i.e, a couple minutes ago):

Icthyic:

it's in the logs for the website.

The logs for the website. Presumably, those are stored on the server. Fail. Besides which, even your phrasing "have logs" is often used to mean the same thing. It's a shorthand to distinguish, say, the SMTP server's log file from the HTTP server's logfile. Fail again. Isn't pedantry fun?

Kenny's homophobia

All of his fears are the same? How could this be?

Ahh, more fundies believing their ignorance counts as wit.

Why am I not all that surprised?

Ahh, more fundies believing their ignorance counts as wit.

I'm not a "fundie", moron.

Why am I not all that surprised?

Because you're retarded?

It's just another obnoxious morphing troll with nothing to say worth listening to. Ignore it.

A pretty spot-on description of "Ichthyic", I would say!

LOL.

Ha ha! I haven't heard "I know you are but what am I?" since Grade 6.

Coincidentally, that's about the level of schooling one needs to stop at to consider ID a 'scientific theory'.

@#164 Ichthyic --

facts are irrelevant to him, witness the ACLU reaction as well.

The funniest thing about that one was that I found the site that proved Kenny wrong by a simple google search ('aclu religion') that took about 5 seconds.

The Kenny DoubleStandard™:

1) If you tell your someone to "google it," even if it isn't clear what they're supposed to google, then whatever you say is true and absolutely correct.
2) If someone does the google work for you and provides a link that contradicts one of your previous claims, you may protest loudly that you didn't lie...you expressed an OPINION. A very true, anecdotally supported opinion.

Go away, wtf. IKYABWAI is a tired tactic that only impresses kindergartners.

The funniest thing about that one was that I found the site that proved Kenny wrong by a simple google search ('aclu religion') that took about 5 seconds.

heh, what's even funnier is I posted the link for him the day before you did.

when he comes back, he will have completely repressed that you ever posted the same link for him (not that he even bothered to go there - the ACLU is "eviiiil" after all).

you will have to do it again if you wish to see for yourself.

I'm not even going to bother.

I rather think Kenny has been cooked and digested at this point, what is left to say?

He did a great job of fleshing out the subject of this thread.

Modes are fun. Artificial modes are fun. I'm fond of so-called Spanish Phrygian, which my dad taught me some years ago. It's natural Phrygian with a (major) 3 throw in for good old-fashioned minor key dom7 fun! :-D The b3 isn't officially part of the mode, but it may as well be, cuz it works well as a passing tone between b2 and 3, and allows for a hint of melodic-minor-style melodicism along with its built-in harmonic minor implications. It works well over a dom7(#/b9 b13)...

Any mode with an aug 2nd interval somewhere along the way is going to sound exotic. Consider this scale, that has two:

Babies and Kittens?

Both are fine... at the neighbor's house. Or across the street.

Yes, we're both off topic!

@#117 Sven DiMilo --

Watch those parallel fifths! Oh, and beware The Devil!!!

Apparently, tritones are no longer the Devil. They are now the "ONE SECRET that connects every 'big name' gospel musician together"; the "seasoning salt" of gospel music.

And all you have to do to learn how to use them is pay these weirdos $50 for a Tritone Xtravaganza 2-hour dvd course. Or, you know, you could actually take a music course....

Go away, wtf. IKYABWAI is a tired tactic that only impresses kindergartners.

Well then, it should certainly impress you, shouldn't it?

Am I off-topic yet?

Isn't this thread titled, "Fun with the godly tunes?"

Babies and Kittens?
Both are fine...

...on the BBQ.

mmm, mmm.

I suggest parboiling the kittens first in order to remove the fur.

There is but one true mode: Hypomixolydian!

@#183 Kseniya --

Any mode with an aug 2nd interval somewhere along the way is going to sound exotic. Consider this scale, that has two:

1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7

There's a name for that one, but I can't remember it. It's a gypsyish sounding thing.

It's the Hungarian minor. There's a whole list of exotic/ethnic modes listed here (along with the regular modes).

As for evil scales -- see #185 on the new Xian tolerance of the Devil's interval. Apparently, these are more "weak" Christians, willing to let amorality creep into our society. They're starting with homosexuality and tritones, but who knows where it might end?

Also, I think whoever came up with the brilliant idea of giving pseudo-Greek names to the modes should be shot*. What was so wrong with a simple Mode I, Mode II, Mode III, etc nomenclature?

*I guess this is why they say music theory leads to killing people....

I guess this is why they say music theory leads to killing people....

are we sure it isn't an atheist plot, then?

One would think that the Tritone would be the most holy of intervals.

One would think.

Three whole steps, one interval. One is three, and three is one.

Two tritones, one octave. Half of a perfect circle, in a manner of speaking; two halves that will bring us back to do.

Swing your partner, to and fro, everybody do-se-do.

The tritone: nature's perfect interval. The comfort-banana of intervals.

Gospel music aside, it is true that without the tritone, there'd be no dominant chords. That would change things quite a bit down here on earth. The would be no boogie. No blues.

Surely the tritone is incontravertible proof that the universe was fine-tuned for music.

I guess this is why they say music theory leads to killing people....

are we sure it isn't an atheist plot, then?

Au contraire; it is both. It's the combination of the general homicidal tendencies of music theorists with the specific Christian-killing tendencies of atheists. After all, the eight nominally pseudo-greek modes are "church modes," truly holy things -- and so atheist music theorists would like nothing better than to see everyone involved with them persecuted, imprisoned for musical hate crimes, and eventually killed, until the world is filled with nothing but tritones resounding ad aeternitatem.

Au contraire; it is both. It's the combination of the general homicidal tendencies of music theorists with the specific Christian-killing tendencies of atheists.

at last!

consesus!

So, anybody else here read This Is Your Brain on Music?

@#192 Kseniya --

Surely the tritone is incontravertible proof that the universe was fine-tuned for music.

Hallelujah! My eyes are now open to the Truth of the Tri(ni)tone. From here on out I will only use tritones in my compositions, and if my professor grades me down for it, I will call him out for religious discrimination. Let's see if the ACLU will take that case!

It's really good, although I only got about halfway in before I lent it to some music lover friends for their honeymoon at South by Southwest, and haven't gotten it back yet.

[* continues humming while gazing intently at the back of her hand *]

So, you're trying to say your summer reading/gazing list is already full?

Trinitone. LOL. It sounds like an old guitar amp. My dad has something called a Tremolux, which to me sounds like a kind of vacuum cleaner. (And hey - they both make noise!) But what do I know.

Oh look - Snazzo is back on the "molecular biology" thread. I wonder if he's mad at us for ridiculing his use of the Trilemma. I don't really want to go look, but I can't stop myse-

Snazzo is back on the "molecular biology" thread.

And he's using the same 'Where there's smoke there's fire, but only if it's Christianity' argument that foutsc used. How can people be this ignorant? Haven't they ever opened an atlas? A history book? A freaking People magazine wherein some celebrity goes to another part of the world to adopt a baby?

Still no answers from Kenny boy? Isn't that typical of the breed? When directly confronted with evidence, Gish Gallop directly away from it!

Do we have a pool on which new thread he'll pop up in with the same garbage tactics?

#185:

tritone exercises specifically designed for the church musician!

Ah, the Nefarious One is always busy. The slippery slope should be obvious to all: Let El Diablo into church through those left-hand gospel tritones and soon you've got Ray Charles, then Chuck Berry, then Keith Richards, and bam! it's all over. Oh, make no mistake: the blues is the Devil's own music (ask Robt. Johnson)--dominant 7ths left and right--and just mentioning Jesus and calling it "gospel" changes nothing.

Or maybe The Living God's taste is evolving...

Bet TLG loves this one.

Too bad you weren't raptured, Kenny, I was gonna call dibs on your "truck nutz"

Funny how Kenny's posts often use the right-wing "dog-whistle" terms mentioned above. Maybe bringing up the ACLU should be known as "Kenny's Law", although it's GOP SOP.

Lastly, Kenny, the whole thing about atheists never doing charitable work... are you really that stupid and bigoted?

Yes, Kenny boy really is that stupid and bigoted. Or he's a great Poe... or Loki Troll.

How about it, Kenny? Wanna 'fess up to being a Poe? Inquiring minds want to know!

I dunno. I work within sight of St Paul's Cathedral, and in all the years I've worked there I've not hardly burned the place down at all.

(Well, there was that *one* time. But we'll quickly skip over that, and besides, the wench is ordained.)

IKYABWAI is a tired tactic that only impresses kindergartners.

Oh, so it went over your head then? My bad.

LOL.

Oh, look! кирп дипутс!

Ксеиня сказала:

кирп дипутс!

Сейчас он будет тебя "ПЗ Сокпнпыт" звать....

Oops...in my #211, it should have been "ПЗ Сокпупыт"...pesky Cyrillic keyboard....

Смеюсь! Конечно, он будет! :-D

off off, way off topic!

Hi folks,

I need your help.
today I met Professor Dr. Gottfried Leonhardi, a over 90 year old biochemist, dermatologist and medic for the human internal (sorry, don´t know the right word). I guess he would be pleased someone remembers his scientific work. So please could someone of you pharyngulans give me a short overview about his work in simple language (like for a highschool grade) because i am not familiar with looking things up.

I googled him and found some paper dated 1975 about things he found in dead skin cells of people suffering from psoriasis. That already took me about 2 hours and I didn´t even got the point where the significant difference was compared to things to be found in other dead skin cells. ...nor what it means. please help

Yoeruek

medic for the human internal

I think the phrase you want is Doctor of Internal Medicine - or, in other words, an "internist".

As for the rest, I'm afraid I can't help you... sorry, Yoeruek.

This particular broadcast is now available as an mp3 download:
http://www.kkmslive.com/MP3/16050808-David%20Aikman.MP3
It was fun to listen to various atheist callers (predominantly August Berkshire) turn the show into "Refuting the Arguments of Christians."

I came upon this thread several months late but I thought I'd link to the refutation I wrote for this book back in July. Yes, everyone's suspicions are correct. This book is horribly argued. I found many bad arguments. Check out my review if you'd like to see all what Aikman has to say. The link to the review is the one in the URL field. Enjoy!