This should enliven your morning: Abigail Smith and I did a Bloggingheads diavlog the other day, and now you can watch us chatter away. I know you've all been wondering what Abbie looks like in person. (One odd thing about recording these, though: we are conversing over the phone, but we don't actually see each other while we're recording — it's a bit of a surprise to see how it turns out.)
I should have combed my hair before I went on, I realize, and maybe I shouldn't have been sipping at that glass containing the blood of innocents throughout.
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But PZ, without your daily supply of innocent virgin blood, how will you desecrate people's saviors efficiently? :P
But that is how atheists maintain their life-forces, being so far from the powerful ju-ju of Jebus.
You look softer and nicer without the glasses and the hair. Maybe a new look? Contacts?
Could be the new cookie diet?
stuff like this really makes me wish I had had a chance to go past 8th grade.
:(
Quit saying I look softer and nicer! I am harsh, cruel, and a truly evil human being.
You wouldn't say that if you were a cracker, man.
#5:
So, sacrificed any orphans lately?
Nah - too much work these days. After all in order to get orphans you have to first kill the parents. Easier to just snatch them off the street.
#7:
Lucifer won't be pleased. :(
You wouldn't say that if you were a cracker, man.
I almost choked.
Dude, what's with the headset? SO '90s...
These things a much more interesting when it's just two scientists dorking out. Good stuff!
Wait, PZ, you were drinking blood? You weren't doing the Eucharist were you?
It was very clever of you, Abbie and PZ, to encode our orders in the secret language of Evil Darwinsts. Our enemies will never figure out what you meant by 'epigentics' or 'methylation'.
Really good chat, though I was disappointed that Arnie never got a chance to say hello.
ERV is so cuuuuuute!!
Funny, I don't hear you talking trash about falafel or bagels, Mr. Tough Guy. What are you so afraid of?
http://www.touristpictures.com/foodfight/
I just finished watching this and I suddenly realized that I spent the whole time gazing at Abbie. It was a very enjoyable conversation; both informative and amusing.
AW, PZ you're such a Teddy Bear! I was enjoying the diavlog very much till it froze at 30 minutes in and I couldn't get it going again. Abbie's so cute with all her enthusiasm! I didn't understand a lot of what you two were talking about in the beginning, but I tried very hard to follow along. I'm learning so much just by coming by here daily. It was heartening to hear you say there were papers even you had a tough time getting through!
Abbie looks bright-eyed and alert (I would say bushy-tailed but I'm not sure she's that kind of mammal!), whereas you look decidedly dopey (half-asleep, drugged or hung-over?) there. Perhaps the invading cybermen got to you with their mind-control ear-pieces while you were still in bed. :-D
First I'm soft and nice, now I'm dopey. That does it. Next time I'm on bloggingheads, I'm shooting up this meth/testosterone/psilocybin cocktail beforehand.
And PZ becomes one step closer to being Spider Jerusalem.
Cute AND intelligent AND funny... does one really have to go to Oklahoma to meet girls like that?
And PZ, actually you should do more video- or podcasts, the thing is with text, you can interpret the tone of the language the way you see fit, if you want to, and are fixated enough. The way you come across in audio/video is very rational, reasonable and likeable, it would take the wind out of the sails of those who keep repeating you are vile and radical.
On the other hand you kind of want to be a bit vile and radical, don't you? o_0
The words do have more impact that way, and we have had much amusement from it. Thanx for that by the way.
Yeaaaaah!!!!1! Spider Jerusalem! Let's bring that guy back, where the heck has he been? Last time anybody heard from him he was getting nursed by some female slaves in his own garden of eden.....
Blake would know. I'll be sure to wave a machine pistol around in that meth-fueled interview, too.
#21
Beware if he shows up with red and green glasses....
@ PZ (#20)
That might have a detrimental effect on your ability to put together a coherent argument. On the other hand, if it brings a flush to your face and a hyperactive squeak to your voice you could be pinky and perky. ;-)
I found an debate on YouTube between PZ Myers and Dr. Simmons.
PZ said:
"We do not adhere to Darwin's theories anymore."
Imagine my surprise!
After all, I've been saying the same thing for more than 10 years...and got myself thrown in the dungeon for my trouble.
Definitely a McCain moment! Caught red-handed.
Can I now die in peace, Paul?
#21: "And PZ becomes one step closer to being Spider Jerusalem."
Well, there goes my soda in little droplets all over the damn keyboard...PZ, Blake, you owe me!
PZ's voice is alot less booming than I envisioned it. :(
Michael the Megalomaniac (comment 27 which may not exist anymore at the time of this writing), it's a "yes and no" kind of thing. Some of what Darwin thought has turned out to be wrong*, some hasn't. And what exactly was it that you believe got you banned? Maybe I can give you a eureka moment.
* His theory of inheritance in particular is... well... laughable in hindsight. Some say it belongs into the 18th and not the 19th century.
Somehow while reading Michael's (sorry, "St" Michael's) post, a line from a song I've heard before popped up in my head from nowhere (... your comprehension's very low...")
Googled it and sure enough, it was Conan's lullaby. This part struck me as how theists like to be treated especially considering the recent Unmentionable Incident:
It's a funny, thing you know
your comprehension's, very low
doesn't matter, what I say
as long as it's, this gentle way
Nothing to do with anything in particular, it just popped in my head.
"maybe I shouldn't have been sipping at that glass containing the blood of innocents throughout"
You'd be amazed at how hard it is to find a 12 steps program for that.
Abbie's a cutie....but I definitely think PZ should shave
Abbie really is dreamy, but if PZ shaved, someone might desecrate his sacred beard trimmings.
The one on the left NOT!
The one on the right HOT!
Wait a minute isn't this amihotornot.com??????
Aww, I'm in love....
PZ you are sooo beautiful.
I'd test that off camera first, if I were you. I've heard it can do some really weird things to your chromatophore control, you might find yourself flashing all colors of the rainbow at inappropriate moments.
BTW, Altenberg (home of Konrad Lorenz) is in Austria, not in Italy. Anyway, great fun; and informative too.
PZ, you really come off has an evil cracker-desecrating batshit crazy satan-worshipping individual in the video. You might want to consult an image consultant. *extreme sarcasm*
I keep expecting PZ to have this GREAT, BIG, BOOMING VOICE every time I see him on video, one that shakes you to your very bones, and to my disappointment he sounds like my grandfather.
...
Actually, never mind, I quite like thinking that now.
The audio on PZ's side seemed a little quiet in the latter half.
The shocking thing for me is realizing that I've been pronouncing 'pharyngula' wrong for about three years, now...
Craig, I got a better education in many respects from my good ol' community college (you know the one, Merritt) than from what is now Misericordia University. It was a mere college for merely mere women when I was there. It's now integrated but it's still Catholic, which means they have some new buzzwords ("charism") but are still based on the same old fallacies.
I did learn certain life-changing things there, but I'm sure they weren't the things I was supposed to be learning. I'm amused at how many others here have confession stories similar to mine.
Joe and I took a plant taxonomy course at Merritt from the inimitable Stew Winchester last year and it was more fun than a barrel of mimulus.
PZ, you do (again) remind me of a couple of my favorite classroom teachers. Good stuff. ERV's just cool as all hell too, isn't she? (For cranky-old-feminist values of "cool" of course, as that comes from me.)
PZ, you and Abbie make for a brilliant conversation. The first bit might have been a bit complex, but starting with the Lenski review, it was a lot of fun (and inspiring) to watch.
I look forward to a second talk between the two of you :)
..and you don't even sound half as boring as people claim you do.
Hey Abigail. Keep up the good work.
I loved the dialogue! Best bloggingheads video I've ever seen (and I'll neglect to mention the only one {Note to self:stop typing thoughts aloud[Seriously! stop that!]})
PZ is a cuddle fish but oh that Abbie - beauty, brains and can write lolspeak, that's HAWT!
Yes, PZ is as nasty as a licorice whip, as abrasive as a gummy bear. Seriously, the Washington Times missed a golden opportunity to give their readers a WTF moment when they used This pic of PZ instead of this one.
Th' evil evilutunist in his lair!
Why did you file your horns down before this was filmed?
gg (#42),
I find it hard not to humm "Pharynguli, pharyngula!" if it's any consolation.
Hi Ron!
How ya been?
Those poor, innocent grapes! Upon reading the "meth/testosterone/psylocybin cocktail," I just about fell over. How's the cracker quest coming? Perhaps you can have some blood of innocents with it?
"Michael the Megalomaniac (comment 27 which may not exist anymore at the time of this writing), it's a "yes and no" kind of thing. Some of what Darwin thought has turned out to be wrong*, some hasn't. And what exactly was it that you believe got you banned? Maybe I can give you a eureka moment."
Sorry, David. You lost him at "and".
I like the girl, but that guy on the left looks like my grandfather six glasses into the vino...
Speaking of that picture in the WT: is that released into the public domain? I couldn't find any mention the page itself, and I can't recall when it was we had the thread with the rampant speculation as to what PeeZed might be doing in Lundun.
The energy comments arent fair. As a graduate student, Im on intravenous MONSTER energy drinks. Bright eyed = WIRED.
LOL!
Did anyone else catch PZ's Freudian slip about 47 minutes in? "Developing orgasm"
Great stuff PZ and Abbie! This is the first time I've come across bloggin-heads. Seems like a really cool concept! I'll be looking through their archives for more.
Good way to kill an hour on a Saturday. I enjoyed that and learned a few things as well.
Abbie has a great laugh.
Could someone please give me a link to this hovind talk full of folky jew jokes and 700 slides please?
PZ do you have it? Could someone PLEASE track this down for me?
Unkempt bearded dude who looks like he's just walked in from his home under the bridge mumbling stuff in latin,sipping cheap red and talking to the hottest chick since Angelina whose eyes shine like supernovas.....
Bit too much of a shock for my eyes on a Sunday morning LOL......
I like these sort of conversations...rarely do I get an hour at a time though. Thanks.
Great diavlog. I hope you keep doing these, PZ. (And Abby, too, for that matter.)
That discussion was great. I've never seen that website before. It looks like it has some great stuff.
I was shocked when you said you didn't have particularly good science teachers in high school. My jaw nearly hit the floor when you said you sometimes played cards in class. It has only been in the past 6 or 7 years that I've realized how much my high school science teacher cheated me. We had 2 science teachers. One taught Biology and a couple other things, the other taught everything else. The biology teacher was ok, but I never liked biology. I was stuck with the other teacher for earth science, chemistry and physics. I never learned a thing in any of the classes. I also didn't have any other choices. For the majority of those 3 years, the boys in the class played penny poker and the girls gossiped. I think I might have really enjoyed chemistry and I'm positive I would have loved physics, but I didn't dare try either in college because I basically learned nothing in high school.
And I must agree, you did look a little dopey.
Guys, can we get past the "she's so cute" comments please?
This isn't american idol. She's a scientist. Listen to what she's saying and stop looking at her tits for jebus sake.
Entertaining watch and a novel format; thanks Abbie and PZ for doing that.
I might suggest a preplanned list of things to discuss, which can be referenced during the long and awkward lapses in conversation. :)
That was really great! I love her energy, and I totally feel the same way about science as you two - it's just beautiful and so cool.
I agree with/ sympathize with many comments you two made. Especially the need for a good graduate supervisor. I had a great supervisor for my MSc, but my current PhD supervisor is just awful in many respects. I am lucky to have a wonderful 'first mentor' that I still keep in touch with, because this woman (via her massive insecurities and favourtism of one student in the lab over all others) can really suck the excitement out of you. Luckily, I am extremely excited about Science and have a great project with alot of potential, and can manage to stay away from the boss lady most of the time... otherwise, I really wouldn't be enjoying it. Any advice for someone like me who loves Science and her research and has lots of good ideas, but has a shitty boss?
I also agree that those Polycomb proteins are damn complicated. They are seeping their way into my project as well!
Great post! I really enjoyed it and learned alot.
@65 about half past seven?
PZ you truly are a teacher.
Very interesting! even if I didn't understand everything (because of my English and of the topic which is not my speciality). It answered some of questions I had these days about how cells are differentiated and how genes are expressed or inhibited. Thanks to wikipedia to complete this knowledge, I discovered this "epigenetics" and these "histones". That's great!
And I loved your smiles, your passion! Science is so great, and biology in particular! No comparison with that boring God's fake happiness of religious ceremonies.
Thanks to PZ and Abigail!
"Guys, can we get past the "she's so cute" comments please?
This isn't american idol. She's a scientist. Listen to what she's saying and stop looking at her tits for jebus sake."
Well, for me anyway, it's not about her tits, it's about her teeth! Ms. Smith's perfect smile, I think, reveals two important things: she loves to laugh, and she loves to bite. How could anyone think we're merely talking about looks?
Wow. Talk about total HAWTness.
And Abigail's pretty good-looking, too.
/obligatory joke
PZ you are a great asset to the state of Minnesota. If you are ever in Croatia, give me a call you have my E-Mail. Sorry about going off topic
PZ, I listened to your conversation about epigenetics, and came away confused.
1. It was just a slip of the tongue, wasn't it, when you said "epigenesis" as though it was synonymous with "epigenetics"? I think epigenesis is a historical theory of embryology, contrasted with preformationism. That's just a trivial slip of the tongue. But point 2 is not trivial, unless I have badly misunderstood something:-
2. Weren't you and Abigail Smith talking at cross purposes, about what epigenetics means? What she was describing sounded to me like common-or-garden "turning genes on". That is, as she said, what makes the difference between a nerve cell and a skin cell. All cells have the genes for making skin cells and nerve cells and bone cells. But only the correct genes get turned on in each kind of cell. That's just standard textbook embryology. But I think you were talking about epigenetic INHERITANCE, which is all about TRANSMISSION TO SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS, i.e. some kind of quasi-Lamarckian inheritance. I suspect that many people are confused because the enthusiasts for epigenetic inheritance (the quasi Lamarckian stuff) often leave off the word "inheritance" and talk as though "epigenetics" always implies trans-generational effects.
I suppose what I am saying is that this conversation at cross purposes between the two of you is going to muddle and confuse a lot of people -- it certainly confused me -- and I think you need to write a follow-up post to clarify the whole issue. If I have completely misunderstood something, perhaps you could clarify that?
Thanks
Richard
I said epigenesis? That was a slip of the tongue. The rest I'll clarify later -- it's on my list to put up a more technical description of epigenetics. Unfortunately, it has to wait a few days while I focus on this meeting I'm attending for the next several days.
How could anyone think we're merely talking about looks?
You got me. I didn't even notice she *had* tits. :-D Men, sheesh!
Richard, if epigenetics refers to the transmission of gene expression changes between cellular generations as well as organismal generations, it seems that Abbie's example is not at odds with the view of epigenetics as inheritance?
I agree that the distinction between epigenetics and other types of gene regulation gets very confusing sometimes. For instance, regulation by antisense RNA is usually included in epigenetics, but it doesn't really happen "independent of DNA sequence" which was part of PZ's definition.
Hey! Just wanted to say that this was a really cool way to do a post, and I enjoyed the chat between you two very much. :)
I think the confusion comes from the fact PZ and I 'see' epigenetics from very different fields :)
I am most interested in day-to-day epigenetics, as once a retrovirus inserts into your genome, its 'just another gene' (though I would argue that epigenetic control of gene expression is far from mundane or basic textbook material :P) What happens when you put a patient on HAART or chemotherapy? Does their epigenetic profile change? Does that effect the control of proviruses and ERVs? Can we use medications to stabilize epigenetic profiles, thus improve genetic stability during chemo, thus decrease odds of recurrence? Can we give HIV patients medications to increase HIV-proviral silencing?
Im also interested in what happens to parasitic DNA during reprogramming points in embryogenesis... but that is the only point where I overlap with PZ.
PZ would be a much better person to discuss the strange inheritance patterns of epigenetic profiles than me :) All know is what mom eats and what grandma ate are important!
Now it gets confusing again :) - isn't "day-to-day epigenetics" just gene expression? And:
If epigenetics refers to heritable changes in gene expression, isn't "inheritance patterns of epigenetic profiles" redundant - since "inheritance patterns of gene expression profiles" = epigenetics? Or if epigenetics does not require inheritance, what's the difference between regular changes in gene expression and epigenetic non-heritable changes in gene expression?
I really have to get to this meeting, but as a preliminary clarification, there are a set of mechanisms that heritably modify patterns of gene expression in cells, and that word "heritably" is the key one. There is a bit of waffly stuff in the literature right now about precisely which processes should get the label epigenetic: the body of transcription factors in the cytoplasm that are inherited by daughter cells are generally not lumped in to the same category as patterns of gene activation by methylation, for instance.
In the retroviral case, it's about processes that cells use to shut down expression of viruses. In development, the progressive restriction of cell potential is in part a product of what is regarded as "epigenetics", apart from the usual inheritance of transcription factors. We also have a few clear cases of epigenetic inheritance between generations, such as Prader-Willi/Angelmann syndrome.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that epigenetic regulation evolved out of mechanisms that evolved to suppress retroviruses.
windy, I dont study inherited epigenetic profiles.
I study modified epigenetic profiles-- Remember you dont have the same histones you were born with! Theyre like any other protein in your body, every time your cells duplicate, they have to make new histones and modify them again. Maybe a good analogy is mass-produced flower vases. Every one starts off a plain white vase, but then they are all painted with the same pattern, say, blue and green stripes. Histones are the plain white vase, the blue and green stripes are methylation, ubiquitination, etc. BUT, if you run out of green paint, it doesnt matter what the 'inherited' pattern is. You cant make the modification to the histone if you dont have the right paint/nutrients.
Side effects of chemotherapy/radiation/HAART/etc are nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, etc. If you arent eating, you dont have the right 'paint' for your 'vases'. Then bad things can happen, medically :)
LOL Did that help at all?
hehehe Also, just to be clear (and to make this worse), even 'old' histones can be modified. So if you paint your vase with green and blue stripes, and later you decide you want it to be red and blue stripes, there are enzymes that can come in and strip off the green paint and another set that comes in to paint the red stripes...
LOL, the point is, epigenetics is controlled by inheritance and the environment. Its not a static thing you are born with.
Thanks, but actually I wasn't confused about how the histone thing works, just by the difference between PZ's and your definitions of epigenetics. Now PZ is saying that inheritance is the key, and you are saying that inheritance is not necessary. Exactly what RD was asking about.
So, what I was trying to say in #77 was, aren't your profiles kind of "inherited" (with modification) from cell division to cell division? I thought this is what makes them epigenetic as opposed to plain old changes in gene expression? Or do you disagree with PZ about the definition?
I hope no one minds if I take a stab at this and possibly employ a bad analogy. I think of epigenetics as a layer of information/control on top of the genetic control/information, as basic to the name itself. So while there is always inherited epigentics; paternal silencing, developmental silencing, etc; cells can also set up a new epigenetic setting, changing their profile. These would be cases where the cell gets a signal from its environment that tells it that it needs to undergo some changes. An immune cell might get a signal to turn off, so it remodels a bunch of chromatin to alter what it does. (I don't know if that is actually correct or not, since I don't actually work on it. I'm sure someone can correct me though.)
For the bad analogy, what I think ERV is talking about would be akin to keeping a landscaping project in good order. It might come a certain way, but to keep it so takes a lot of materials and work. Continually having to replace washed away mulch and keep hedged trimmed, etc. But if the landscapers can't get new mulch, or replace dull clippers, it won't be possible to keep things the same. Or if there is an infestation that kills off some of the plants, obviously the landscaping will have to be different. Those would be like a cell that is starved of something it needs to keep its profile in place or gets infected and has the profile more forcefully disrupted. Hope that wasn't too bad and was actually representative of what ERV was saying.
D @ #85, this is also how I view epigenetics. I also don't claim to be an expert, but from all of the reading I've done on the subject it makes sense to me that particular epigenetic profiles are inherited, but these can be modified over the lifetime of the organism through environmental causes. It seems to me that from what is currently understood about what epigenetics is both PZ and Abbie may be correct, especially based on the differential applications of epigenetics in their research. This is one of those Scientific topics, I think, that is still being understood and is thus still not properly defined.
Abbie drinks those energy drinks? Wow, ERV and FtK have something in common!(ducks to avoid flying objects)
LOL!
Okay, when I am talking about epigenetics, Im talking about DNA methlyation and modifications to histones. That is inheritable, not only from Grandma-->mom-->offspring, but also cell-to-cell.
But epigenetic profiles are also different between different types of cells (hematopoietic stem cells vs a cytotoxic T-cell) and I can change your cells epigenetic profiles by restricting this or that nutrient from your diet.
So, I see woo attacking epigenetics from two angles--
1-- Its not just 'the DNA'! There is something else out there! I mean, how can what your grandma eats effect you? Thats nuts! Its Lamarckism!
2-- Oooooh! You have cancer because your epigenetics isnt centered. You need to take this supplement and that supplement and mega-doses of Vitamin C and eat all these organic fruits. You dont need chemo!
Im not sure if I am helping the confusion at all, so, GOOGLE!
You can also check the Wikipedia entry.
The meaning has shifted over the past 50 years or so, so one has to be careful in reading of the literature. Recent literature is much more restricted as to what the term means: usually DNA methylation patterns, etc.
But older literature usually refers to the old Waddington's definition which includes all inheritance patterns that are not the DNA sequence itself: from gene expression patterns, through maternal effects, to learning birdsong from one's father.
There's something terribly endearing with the way Abbie thinks scientific hypotheses are cute. :)
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
D wrote:
If you are explaining for my benefit, I'm wasn't asking about what kind of things might be going on in the cell, but about how do people draw the line between epigenetics and other modifications that are necessary for gene expression.
So, landscaping would be maintaining and modifying the state of your surroundings over longer periods of time, but then there's also day-to-day things like taking out the trash and taking the car out of the garage, which don't involve permanent modification. Doesn't RNA translation itself require doing something to the histone tails?
ERV wrote:
I googled before, and linked to a couple of things, and both of them defined epigenetics as something inherited :)
"Epigenetics The study of heritable changes in gene function that occur without a change in the DNA sequence."
or
"One way of controlling which genes are expressed is by 'epigenetic' mechanisms, which allow identical genetic material to exist in different on or off states that can be transmitted faithfully over many cellular generations, and even from egg and sperm to embryo."
So it's still a bit confusing, but hopefully we can continue the discussion when PZ writes the follow-up. Hope I didn't sound unappreciative since your research sounds fascinating regardless of what it's called ;)
Sorry windy, I was trying to give an example of what I thought would be non-inherited epigenetics by ERV's take. The way I look at it, one can't really separate out the day to day from the long term. Some things, like say DNA methylation, can certainly be longterm, but they are also alterable in the lifespan of a single cell. Histone modifications are probably a bit trickier. I don't know what is or is not heritable as far as modification go and how much that is actually dependent upon other factors in the cell, like transcription factors. And yes, RNA transcription ( I assume that's what you meant) does require/involve modifications to histones. So I'd draw the line between components that are physically a part of the chromatin vs not. So histones or direct covalent modification to the DNA would be epigenetic factors, but the machinery that in turn modifies the DNA or histones would be the next step up and not always heritable. Epigenetic factors though always can be heritable, but they don't have to originate from inheritance.
And yes, RNA transcription ( I assume that's what you meant)
Argh! Yes. ;)