Up, up and away

Bon voyage!

As a recovering altar boy, I worked up some observations on the communion wafer controversy. I have wise recommendations that I offer to offended religious people! That's just how sweet and charitable I am.

I think everyone around here needs a little panda/kitten therapy.

Safe travels PZ, enjoy your time away from the insanity you've ignited these last couple of days. We'll keep the fires stoked for when you return ;-)

Ah, crap, movie's over. Must go to rejoin party. Find food. Man cook meat on fire.

I hear its cracker season over there, so drive safely PZ.

It's funny- I just found this whole 'internet controversy,' and I was going to form a solid opinion of it. Really, I was.

Then I saw you were at UMN Morris. That made me realize, seriously, who gives a flying fuck what you think. Go nuts, have fun.

Good luck. Come down to Chicago or Rockford sometime. I'll buy. I'll bring crackers.

Re: #6

That's the best you can fucking come up with Andrew, "You're from UMN Morris, who cares what you think?"? You, a relatively anonymous commenter on the most popular science blog on the net... yeah, definitely one to talk.

Again PZ, have fun. Try not to think too much about the jackasses like Andrew who think they're opinion actually means a damn.

Here's the hatchet job:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/12/professor-solicits-host…

I hope prohibitionists don't come to Manuel's and steal your beer. Not that American beer can be desecrated any further...

PZ, glad you confirmed the meeting up in Atlanta later today. Have a safe flight and see you at Manuel's.

WND is reporting it now:

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69384

"There may also be a hatchet job in the Washington Times tomorrow morning"

In other words, the Washington Times will be printed tomorrow morning.

PZ

Have a great time in Atlanta. I'm going to spend some time this weekend and listen to what you said in my home town last week.

While I promise you won't hear another word from this particular loon, something tells me you're going to be hearing from loons for quite some time.

Take it easy, enjoy the trip and watch your health PZ.

The Washington Times? The Moonie paper, owned by Sun Myung Moon of Unification Church fame? He's got a fabulous jeweled crown.

I hear that Sun Myung Moon is the savior of mankind. Do you think he's whole wheat, rye, or seven grain?

Well, I added a comment to the Washington Times article, during which I discovered a funny thing: the word "Moonie" is not allowed by them. We'll see how long it stays up. Many other Pharyngulites need to register there (it's quick) and add comments supporting PZ, at least before the usual wingnut readership has a chance to see it and buy into the paper's predictable distortions of the situation.

Well, fly safe, and have as enjoyable a trip as is possible in this day and age.

p.s. Try not to insult any more baked goods while you're at it. The internets are nearly full as it is, and I hear them southerners are mighty attached to their biscuits...

I hear that Sun Myung Moon is the savior of mankind. Do you think he's whole wheat, rye, or seven grain?

Posted by: Zeno

I think he's more of a pancake than anything.

What's entrancing about the Washington Times job is that it's owned by the Unification Church -- the Moonies. The Moonies teach that Jesus Christ failed in his mission on earth, and that God has sent Sun Myung Moon to get it right this time. And guess what? That's been confirmed in a 'spirit conference' attended by just about every dead religious figure of the last two thousand years, including Jesus. God wrote a letter a few days later confirming that Moon is the Messiah. Some background is here. I couldn't find the ad itself in a quick search, but it was a doozy.

See ya there, Peezy!

Ooops... Forgot to close my quote tag.

I will accept my lashings now. Make it swift yet painful.

Read the Washington Times article. Not so much of a hatchet job. Spent a bit too much on the "what's PZ going to do?" rather than "Catholics believe WHAT?". Didn't expect much else from the Times nor any other paper for that matter.

Donahue is such a twit.
"We already know that Myers lost one round: the university has removed the link to his blog from his faculty page." William Donohue, the group's president, said Friday.

Did he? How many referrals do you think PZ gets from the UMN Morris web page? How many of his own students even know there is a department website?

The WND, however...ugh. The story wasn't going bad until they misquoted PZ and replaced the word "web" with the UMN Morris URL to imply that the trisket torture would take place on university servers.

Then it implies that Myers would do ill to the Pope when rather he describes a rather interesting picture of Bill Donahue being provider of boot-to-crotch.

J

PZ, if it makes you feel better some of us at LJ sent polite, mature letters to your University President.

John Gorenfeld published an article in Salon that tells us all about Sun Myung Moon's coronation in Washington, D.C., as the savior of humanity. Many elected officials were in attendance, drawn in by the prospect of getting various bogus awards in honor of their statesmanship. The event was actually held at the Dirksen Senate Office Building.

Hmm the WND article misquotes you as saying that you would "treat it [the frackin' cracker] with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the http://www.morris.umn.edu/index.php."

and implies you threatened the Pope with physical violence.

I guess WND is not above lying for Zombie Jesus.

From PZ's blog:
"I won't be tempted to hold it hostage ... but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web."

From worldnetdaily.com (see comment #12 for link):
"I won't be tempted to hold it hostage ... but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the http://www.morris.umn.edu/index.php."

worldnetdaily.com: The ellipsis deletes a reference to what might be described as a physical attack on the pope. But what got the Catholic League's attention was the ending of the web address, the University of Minnesota at Morris.

The extremely dishonest World Net Daily changed PZ's sentence. They replaced the word "web" with http://www.morris.umn.edu/index.php

Of course it's not possible to leave a comment on World Net Daily to point out their dishonesty.

That WND piece is a bit of a mess. On the other hand, I sometimes wondered where those who lack integrity went to find work.

Sad thing is, some nutbag Bible thumper is going to be quoting that article in their tirades, and I get so tired of holding their hands and telling them that it's not a real news source.

@naz
Keep up the hatred, kids - the country is watching....

We're currently occupied laughing at people who treat crackers as more important then human lives and then try to explain their reasoning making more death threats in the name of their cult.

Oh, and they also claim divinely inspired morals, really, it's a big party here for the moment.

Please check back later, we hate babies and puppies on sundays.

naz, extremist atheism? I haven't noticed any atheists making death threats to defend a cracker.

I hear that Sun Myung Moon is the savior of mankind. Do you think he's whole wheat, rye, or seven grain?

Nutloaf. With extra nuts.

And probably seasoned with homopathic holy water, then prayed on.

Please check back later, we hate babies and puppies on sundays.

In fact, we eat them. I'm thinking I'll have mine baked inside a nice covering of crackers. That will be a bit of a change--I usually spit-roast 'em on a cross over an open fire of burning bibles, qur'ans, and buddhist tracts.

I went to Atlanta for a physics conference several years ago. I still say "y'all" to this day.

Beware. :)

Don't worry about the TSA in Atlanta; it may just be that some non-believers have infiltrated that one. :P I, too, hope to stop by the gathering Saturday.

I can't believe how big this cracker thing is turning out to be. It's completely absurd and I hope that Catholics everywhere pray really really really hard asking their god for its forgiveness for ever letting Donahue into their flock.

@naz

The canard is in your own head for making the self centered assumption that we actually care which silly religious sect is involved here.

I also noticed how your post lacked any assurance that human beings are in fact more important then crackers.

Naz snivelled: The threats against the FL kids were from one or two classmate - NOT from the "Catholic Church"

Except for the spokeswoman from the diocese who called what the kid did by taking the cracker out of the church a "hate crime."

Honestly, you are extremists and bigots who create situations (ie a "fatwa") to be able to express your irrational hatred of other traditions.

Except that the fatwa here in real, and was created, not by us, but by Bill Donahue, who has been instructing people to harass Myers via email, been hounding his superiors at UMM, and now wants to try to get Minnesota politicians involved.

There. Just a few facts to clarify your widdle bitch whining.

Oh and PS: It's just a CRACKER!

If our hatred of your "traditions" is really irrational, then prove the cracker is actually Jesus.

We'll just wait here.

Just read the Washington Times article, and emailed the author for his inability to research the background to the cracker story - the death threats against the young man who took a wafer from mass as a prank and later returned it. Death threats over a small piece of bread. How. Very. Christian.!!!

Hope you have a terrific weekend all.

@naz, now who is creating the situation?

Nobody said that the death threats were from the church itself. Obviously they were from your catholic cracker mates. You must be having problems reading and understanding a text.

Plus, there is nothing irrational in our indignation over all the fuss just because of a freakin' cracker. On the other side, what can be more irrational than believing that (as your Donahue guy says) holding a cracker hostage is the worst imaginabile thing that one can do.

Really, get serious ... it's just a freakin' cracker!

The threats against the FL kids were from one or two classmate - NOT from the "Catholic Church"

Then again, I suppose that Dan Brown is your favorite scholar of history.

Honestly, you are extremists and bigots who create situations (ie a "fatwa") to be able to express your irrational hatred of other traditions.

Pathetic, sad, and, as I said, very bad for your ideology.

Thanks again!

Posted by: naz

Last time I feed this little troll.

Naz, you didn't read the previous post on this blog where PZ posted the emails he received, did you?

I don't see how anyone could defend or even respect the Catholics after the vile hate they've spewed over this. The best part, of course, is that in trying to defend their precious death cult beliefs, all they've really done is show everyone just how sick, malicious, and damaged they truly are.

Trust me. With his intolerant outburst, Bill Donohue set the Catholic religion back a great many years by showing everyone what a collection of demented fuckwits these Catholics truly are. Go take a look at the threats PZ's received. These are people who claim that their religion is a path to a good and moral life? How is that morality possible when also calling for the death of an innocent man who simply defended a kid who didn't eat his cracker in church?

I doubt you'll even think about that, Naz. I think you're quite comfortable in your irrational hate. And, that's kind of the exact opposite of what you're supposed to be, isn't it?

The threats against the FL kids were from one or two classmate - NOT from the "Catholic Church"

That the death threats come at all is telling of the faith itself. A cracker motivated them to react in such a way.

Honestly, you are extremists and bigots who create situations (ie a "fatwa") to be able to express your irrational hatred of other traditions.

It's not hate, darling, it's contempt of the irrationality of thinking a cracker can be imbued with magic properties. It's also contempt of those who believe such things as crackers deserve reverence.

I'm sure someone has already said this but it is not bigotry. Foolish ideas about what a cracker becomes when you sprinkle it with pixie dust are not exempt from ridicule simply because they come from a select group of people.

Pathetic, sad, and, as I said, very bad for your ideology.

Reason needs no advertising. Those who think for themselves will continue to do so despite what some other atheists do. Those who decide to think for themselves will do so in spite of all the bad publicity the Catholic League and 'ID'iots can muster.

Thanks again!

You too.

I didn't mean that it was contempt of those people who believe such things. I misspoke. I guess deep down I do harbor contempt for such people only when they act unreasonably based on their faith. This doesn't include people who merely "believe" in the magical properties of crackers. They're OK in my book. Those who decide to get a person fired, or threaten the person with death, they are the ones who are contemptible. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I do love when they post hate filled comments even when you are just talking about going on a flight. Or better yet when they copy/paste it onto multiple comment sections just in case you missed the first one.

Enjoy the Flight PZ. I personally would be reading a fantasy novel since I'd want to escape from reality. I can't escape into movies anymore, damn physics lessons have ruined my ability to watch without criticizing.

"I went to Atlanta for a physics conference several years ago. I still say "y'all" to this day."

Must have been some time ago. I was under the impression that Atlanta is entirely populated by northern migrants by now.

From the article:

He also said he wants to point out that "I am under no obligation to revere the sacred objects of the Catholic Church.... I don't have to treat it as a little idol."

This really needs to be emphasized more. He's not preventing Catholics from receiving communion. He's not breaking into churches and stealing wafers. He's not desecrating holy relics. And he's not keeping quiet in his opinion that it's absurd to believe a little piece of bread is literally the body of Christ, which is what really drives the God botherers crazy, because he's exposing their beliefs to ridicule.

Catholics and all other religious people can believe any stupid crazy thing they want, but they're going to have to get used to people mocking those beliefs.

Actually naz,

Since there's no formal requirements of clergy in Islam, and a fatwa is simply a statement indicating the opinion of what is required of the faithful on a particular topic, the analogy is valid.

We don't call them fatwas because we don't speak arabic, but if Bill Donahue is seen as a religious authority by some Catholics, and he issues an official, public statement on a matter, and in that statement directs Catholics to act or believe in a certain way, then YES, he has issued a fatwa.

Oops, did a lowly atheist just school a cracker worshipper on religious practices?!

Actually, that kind of stuff happens here everyday. We're used to it. Try something new Naz, see if it corresponds with reality this time.

Safe travels, PZ!

Enjoy the oppressive heat and humidity lovely southern summer weather.

The vitriol directed here isn't just a response to our host's cavalier discussion of the Host. Much of it is directed to us, the godless swarm whose hive they've discovered. They are profoundly offended by our mockery.

I say, come for the mockery, stay for the cookie recipies.

Safe travels, PZ. There are a lot of crazy cracker-fiends out there; hope they won't give you any trouble IRL/at Manuel's.

The crap article is up at Washington Times
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/12/professor-solicits-host…

Oh, come on guys, be nice to naz. He's the first idiot to dump a turd on a new(though unrelated) thread, and this is probably as good as life is going to get for him anytime soon.
So in a spirit of warm welcome, I say-

Congratulations, Dipshit!

Can someone pass the Cheez Whiz?

The Washington Post article is just news - rather, without opinion. The letters that follow are all supportive of PZ (so far). A good read.

Where was this upwelling of catholic outrage when their priests are caught molesting their children? Or when their bishops cover up and protect said priests? Or when their terrorist arm regularly blew up buses and shopping centres? So much bleating about how the muslims are so scary...do they not remember the IRA? They have no knowledge of the inquisition? So, what's the deal? Hey, bugger all the children you like, just don't touch the wafers? That's really the most vile and deplorable thing these idiots can imagine? Better not tell them about oreos...oooh interracial cookies. Fucking dark age superstitious inconsequential inbred imbeciles.

Naz is also Rob from TX and about 10 other sockpuppet trolls.

Don't bother engaging with him, he knows all the actual facts, doesn't care, he's just a psychotic liar.

Where was this upwelling of catholic outrage when their priests are caught molesting their children?

The church reacted swiftly and decisively to that issue.
The current Pope, Ratzinger, issued a directive detailing how the child molesters were to be dealt with.

They were to be protected from discovery and prosecution.

Here's where living in Hawaii has its drawbacks. We don't have the likes of PZ or BA, we do occasionally have something interesting, but nothing as entertaining. I remember when Dawkins was here, as well as Gamow, and Hawas, but otherwise we're in the boonies as far as interesting critical thinking conventions go. Does anyone want to have vacation/convention out here? I didn't think so. There is a price to pay when living in such a wonderful place. It's void of anything intellectually stimulating.

come on P.Z you are going to the south...you don't say "hello" you say "hey y'all!"

p.s wish i was going but alas gas is too ridiculous for a VA to GA drive...sigh

Breaking news. Naz/Rob from Tx/many others has just revealed himself to be our old troll Kenny in the last thread.

What a warped mind that guy has.

"It's void of anything intellectually stimulating."

Bit like the holy roman catholic sad excuse for a church then...

Why hasn't naz been thrown into the Pharyngula killfile dungeon?

Actually, the Washington Times article didn't read like a hatchet job at all to me. From what I've read about this so far, it looks like a pretty accurate account of the absurdity that's transpired up to now. Of course, it would have been nice to see a headline that read, "Catholics Issue Death Threats Over Cracker" but that's still a long way off.

I've actually had some lovely baked goods on a few flights. Particularly one SAS flight back from Stanstead.

I do hope you haven't somehow ended up on the no-flight list. If all else fails, you'll just have to register as PeeZed bin Laden - or Clinton Dawkins.

"Mr. Donohoe had said Thursday that his group would contact the University of Minnesota president, Board of Regents and the state legislature, saying it was "hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate a holy cracker".
What more to say? Prof. Myers has done a terrific job of showing Catholics to be the relious crackers they are.

"The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights said the removal of the Web link did not end the matter.

"We already know that Myers lost one round: the university has removed the link to his blog from his faculty page. He should be prepared to lose a few more rounds," William Donohue, the group's president, said Friday.

Mr. Donohoe had said Thursday that his group would contact the University of Minnesota president, Board of Regents and the state legislature, saying it was "hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ. We look to those who have oversight responsibility to act quickly and decisively."

"...hard to think of anything more vile..." At first I thought Donowhore was referring to himself. But what's completely ridiculous is that he really insists that the cracker is the flesh of Jeebus and that the state legislature, regents and uni president have to believe in voodoo cannibalism.

Andrew Sullivan has been playing the catholic apologist for years, and he had tacky post regarding PZ yesterday.

He then posted two dissenting emails that he received that are pure gold:

_________________

In today's Moore Award post about PZ Myers you write:

"It is one thing to engage in free, if disrespectful, debate. It is another to repeatedly assault and ridicule and abuse something that is deeply sacred to a great many people."

On Feb. 11, 2006 you posted the following, in relation to the Danish Cartoonists ridiculing Mohammed and Islam:

"The point is this: everyone is supposed to observe the religious constraints of one particular faith, regardless of whether we share it. And if we don't observe Islamic etiquette ... we're lucky if we only get cursed and condemned. Get that?"

That sounds like a double standard to me. Are we supposed to be more deferential to Catholics than Muslims, when it comes to ridiculing what some of us see as silly and oppressive superstitions? I don't recall you referring to the Danish cartoonists as "bigots." The only difference I can see here, is that now it's YOUR personal religion that's being ridiculed. So of course that makes the offender a bigot.

_________________

The boundary between respectful debate and ridicule or abuse is frequently in the eyes of the beholder. I can't help but think of the cartoons of Mohammed published in Denmark and elsewhere. I'm sure some semantic difference between the cartoons and Mr. Myers' screed could be posed. However, in the eyes of many of the believers of the respective religions, both Mr. Myers' language and the cartoons "assault and ridicule and abuse something that is deeply sacred to a great many people". You, in particular, have been especially tough on newspapers that refused to publish the cartoons of Mohammed. Rightly so. Yet many Muslims would appeal to you for some sort of "baseline civility". In their eyes, you would be inciting others to ridicule and abuse their prophet.

For an Atheist like Mr. Myers, the idea of transubstantiation is just as absurd as Xenu stacking nuclear weapons around volcanoes, reincarnation, taking up snakes and baptizing the dead (or living). Why shouldn't Mr. Myers "ridicule" something he knows to be a cracker? It's a cracker, for goodness sake. Which religious tenets is he allowed to ridicule? Xenu's bombs? Christians that take up snakes? None of the above? What about young Earth creationism? One of Mr. Myers' more frequent attacks is on the idea of young (6,000 year old) Earth creationism that's espoused by many Christians and other believers. He's equally crude with his attacks on those beliefs. Where is your outrage with respect to those lines of attack? Is your lack of outrage due to the fact that you actually agree with him that the Earth is much older than that? Who decides which silly beliefs are worthy of ridicule, sarcasm, etc.? If we assume for the sake of argument that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and all the creatures on the Earth today are the product of evolution, shouldn't he be able to use a variety of tactics, including ridicule, against those who fight to teach young Earth creationism in the classroom? Similarly, if we assume that transubstantiation is false (which he does), why shouldn't he be using every rhetorical device available to pound that idea home to whoever will listen?

In many areas of the country, this same argument about civility versus abuse could be made about burning the flag. To many Americans, the flag is deeply sacred, and burning the flag or otherwise using it in protests is a horrendous abuse of a sacred object. However, to my mind, and I presume yours as well, such an act would be a legitimate form of free speech to symbolically protest governmental actions. What if Mr. Myers had used the same language to ask his readers to send him a flag to burn, due to his anger over the government's torture of fellow humans? Would you have had the same response? As you have documented on your site many times, the Catholic church has many problems. What if a true-believing Catholic made the same post as Mr. Myers in order to protest the repeated child rape by Catholic priests? Reread Mr. Myers' post as if he were a disgruntled Catholic, upset at his church's response to the rapes. Would you still have the same response? In part, it's the abuse of a "sacred" object that gets people to sit up and take notice of what you're saying. In addition, the abuse of the object speaks symbolically to all of the problems of the entity that the symbol represents.

You have written passionately in the past about your reverence for communion (e.g., "the sacraments, especially that of communion, have always been for me the only truly reliable elements of direction, concrete instantiations of another order"). I suspect it's this reverence, not unlike the reverence of Muslims for Mohammed, that motivated your post. You are at your best when you have no sacred cows. If indeed you have some sacred cows, I hope you don't begin to impose them on others.

OMG Teh KENNEH!!!

so, yeah, anyway, have a great trip, PZ. Get your mind off things.

I wouldn't worry too much about the catholic church. From what I've been reading over the last couple of days, they're a group of cuddly teddy bears that wouldn't hurt a fly, and they'll chop off your fingers for saying otherwise.

I say, come for the mockery, stay for the cookie recipies.

Ooo, ooo, I have a good cookie recipe! I would totally go for a cookie recipe thread. All of course, with the optional extra ingredient of a cracker, for that extra Jesusy goodness.

Oh, everyone's been saying Washington TIMES. I went to the Washington Post and couldn't find it, but I did find an extremely interesting set of articles all also about Mass, discussing the people who went to Tim Russert's funeral and took the sacred wafer even though they weren't Catholic, and whether or not this was disrespectful. It's serendipity!

Tony Blair was known to take the Catholic communion when he accomponied his wife to church, and this was before he actually converted to Catholocism.

How odd to actually choose to become a Catholic. You might as well have "I am a bigit" tattooed on your forehead. It does explain a few things though and I always did think he had problems thinking.

Have a safe flight, PZ Myers. I'm sure all the crazies are praying for your plane to crash, or something equally stupid.

The Washington Times? Does anybody actually read that?

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2008/07/professor_myers_academic_…

Professor Myers should not be punished by his employer for what he said. Because he teaches at a state institution, Professor Myers has many protections at his disposal that insure and secure his academic freedom, which I wholeheartedly support. Having said that however, there is absolutely nothing wrong with those citizens who are drawing public attention to Professor Myers' imprudent and thoughtless comments. If, for example, I were to insult a colleague's mother by suggesting that he has had intimate relations with her, I should not be shocked if he were to punch me in the nose or not invite me to the faculty party he is hosting at his home.

Civil society requires that we treat others with respect, and that means that if we find their beliefs unreasonable, we should offer our arguments against those beliefs in a winsome and attractive way. When it comes to Catholic theology, we are talking about a complicated, rich, and sophisticated theological and philosophical tradition that has wrestled with a whole array of challenges, concepts and ideas during its two millenia. It stands to reason then that detractors such as Professor Myers have an obligation to study what they reject with the depth and diligence such a tradition demands of a truly curious and probing mind. "It's a Frackin' Cracker" is not the prose of an adult. It is the ramblings of what G. K. Chesterton said of the atheist, "who is often a man limited and constrained by his own logic to a very sad simplification."

Civil society requires that we treat others with respect

so of course your conclusion is that death threats are perfectly respectable, provided they are directed at those you disagree with.

moron.

...in a winsome and attractive way

who are you, Martha fucking Stewart?

Third to last paragraph of the WT twittering

Mr. Donohoe had said Thursday that his group would contact the University of Minnesota president, Board of Regents and the state legislature, saying it was "hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ. We look to those who have oversight responsibility to act quickly and decisively."

Note the spelling in the second word. Is the Washington Times trying to send a secret message?

"When it comes to Catholic theology, we are talking about a complicated, rich, and sophisticated theological and philosophical tradition that has wrestled with a whole array of challenges, concepts and ideas during its two millenia"

Ah, so that is why it still discriminates against gays. And there was me thinking they were just bigots. Turns out they have really thought about it, and they still hate gays. Somehow that actually seems to make it worse. Want to rethink that one ?

As for respect, first it is earned, not a right. Second, if you seriously think daft ideas are worthy of respect then you are talking bollocks.

I guess believing really stupid things, and actively discriminating against gays and women is ok as long as you have really really thought about it.

Keep up the hatred, kids - the country is watching....

have a FUCKING CRACKER!

The sad part is that the people wailing loudest about this haven't, and will never, read the article. They have been told what it says, they have been told what their opinion should be, and then they regurgitate it out through their fingers over here. They don't read the comments either, because they all seem to think that they are so clever with the muslim thing.
As for the people trying to get PZ fired, does anyone else wonder if they are religious because they love god or because they love the love of god? Even if they don't believe or slightly believe they are entitled to special rights and use that to bully other people. It seems like for a lot of people it's a source of power that they wouldn't otherwise have like being in a gang. The whole god thing is irrelevant.

Have a good time PZ! I'm taking a rest from the animal crackers too. Farmers market.
Oh...no beer...!
Watch out for the kooks. :)

When it comes to Catholic theology, we are talking about a complicated, rich, and sophisticated theological and philosophical tradition that has wrestled with a whole array of challenges, concepts and ideas during its two millenia

Really. Saying magic words makes the substance of a cracker remain a cracker yet also take on the essence of a dead human being? That's sophisticated? Really?

Ok, lets get rid of the trolls once and for all.

Hey, look over there, it's an image of the Virgin Mary on the side of that church! What a miracle! Let's go pray over there!

MAJeff, you just don't understand the beauty and richness of the tradition of the magic god cookie.

I thought I could find anything on the Interwebs, but it's not true. I ran a search on "cracker abuse hot line" and it came up empty. What a terrible void in our culture. Perhaps Bill Donohue and the Catholic League can fill this void.

The Washington Times?

What do moonies do for communion anyway? Jesus the second is rev. Moon because he says he is.

So do they cut chunks out of him and draw blood every sunday? Must suck to be the second coming of christ and everyone is butchering you once a week.

I doubt it. I suppose if you are a moonie, it is crackers and wine again. That transubstantiates into Reverend Moon. Bleh!!!

Hiya PB, thanks for the advice.
Maybe you can help me.
What would be a winsome and attractive way to address the official Catholic church policy of hiding from prosecution their staff members who are child rapists?

Thanks in advance.
You pal, Craig.

Every single one of the Catholics who are attempting to harm Professor Myers in some way should surrender your US passports immediately. The threats against Webster Cook and PZ Myers are EXACTLY like the threats made against students who burned flags in protest of the Vietnam War. They are EXACTLY like the threats made by Muslim extremists over slights against their symbols. And Bill Donohue and all these dangerous people making anonymous threats in the name of religion are wrong in EXACTLY the same way.

I never heard of Andrew Sullivan until his web debate with Sam Harris. In that debate, he came off as a complete ditz--likening his church (most likely unwittingly) with McDonald's in the sense that he can receive the 'standard' services all throughout the world just by popping into a Catholic Church. Oh, Andrew, just go to a McDonald's instead! And you won't have to torture yourself with cognitive dissonance any longer.

But this guy seems to exult in courting cognitive dissonance, a gay man who is both Catholic and conservative? My gut feeling is that he is a pampered, coddled shithead whose intelligence and education is completely wasted.

I have read posters' comments stating that he is one of the good guys because he challenges some of the crapola done by the American government, but he just seems that way because the bar is set so low as the American situation has been/is so bad.

Naz is just the seriously mentally ill multi sock puppet troll. When you are locked up in a secure ward with only internet access, your life is being crazy on the internet. Expect a few dozen more inane sock puppets today. And tommorrow. and so on.

No use wasting time feeding that troll. He isn't reading your responses, doesn't care what he says, and is only interested in destructive activities. In these cases, the media is the message.

#78

Hahaha flawless victory.

"I ran a search on "cracker abuse hot line" and it came up empty."Hmmm.. What number would that be? 1-800-nocrumbs?

Damn, these things are hard to think of... there's gotta be a good one.

Speaking of flawless victory, check out the epic win here:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/LucidFlight_album/JesusBitz.jpg

Post-Cana... it's true that these people are behaving in a way that is not in line with american ideals, but we're not going to have McCarthyism starting again on this blog.

Andrew Sullivan is a jesus love junkie.

Kobra you insensitive clod, how dare you desecrate the Nabisco Ritz Cracker box design copyright?

#97:

The same way I did this:

http://www.kobrascorner.com/index.php?380

Resist the crackers offered on the plane.

The Washington Times? Still having a hard time with that one.

The Catholic Church is the one true church and Rev. Moon is Jesus the second, back to fix what Jesus the first screwed up.

I wouldn't expect the two denominations to be on exactly good terms considering each considers the other to be hopelessly heretical.

I guess the enemy of your enemy is your friend, temporarily.

Civil society requires that we treat others with respect, and that means that if we find their beliefs unreasonable, we should offer our arguments against those beliefs in a winsome and attractive way.
______

To me, civil society is when we refrain from using physical violence, when we do commerce/barter, and when we cooperate out of enlightened self-interest. Your version of civil society will never allow important changes to occur, because it will keep the status quo intact by tiptoeing around bullshit like religious beliefs.

I first read winsome as wholesome and was wondering if the implication was that we need to desecrate whole wheat crackers? Do the pious parasites (commonly referred to as priests) plan on upgrading their flock's nutrition by switching to a healthier kind of flour?

Watch out for the cracker protesters.

"Hey, hey! Ho, ho! Cracker jokes have got to go!"

PB #76 wrote:

When it comes to Catholic theology, we are talking about a complicated, rich, and sophisticated theological and philosophical tradition that has wrestled with a whole array of challenges, concepts and ideas during its two millenia

There's a great expression to answer this, PB: You can't polish a turd - even if you try for two thousand years.

The more I think about this soylent jesus stuff, the more concerned I become.

Is it like sausage? I mean, do they use all the leftover scrap Jesus offal? Is it stuff like Jesus lips and Jesus colon, Jesus sphincter, toenails and testicles? Or is it all USDA Prime Sirloin of Christ?

This is the sort of off topic but it shows how Donohue and his clowns can get away with this crap.

This is a quote from a university spokesman..

"Mr. Wolter said he could not say whether the university's response would be different if Mr. Myers went through with his threat, nor could he say whether acts outside the classroom can, in principle, provide a basis to revoke tenure."

This is the type of wishy-washy claptrap that allows Catholic Leaguers to get their panties in a bunch.

He should have said "PZ is acting as a private citizen. If it's not moral turpitude, and this is not, it is none of our business."

Yeah, the Washington Times isn't so bad. I got a weird vibe from the reporter interviewing me, but maybe it was just that he was being so cautious about transcribing every word I said so carefully.

Well, my reading comprehension is probably not too good considering I'm going without sleep, but I didn't see a single mention of WHY you posted what you did in the WT article...

...so to me it seemed to come across like "Prof out of the blue decides to insult Catholicism just for the hell of it."
Which seemed pretty unfair and misleading.

But if I missed something, let me know. I'm bleary-eyed.

"When it comes to Catholic theology, we are talking about a complicated, rich, and sophisticated theological and philosophical tradition that has wrestled with a whole array of challenges, concepts and ideas during its two millenia"

And it took them all a mere 360 years or thereabouts to apologize to Galileo for demonstrating the earth revolved around the sun.

In that wrestling match, 'sophisticated' stupidity outlasted many generations of scientists. And apologizing to a man turned to dirt that long ago was really pointlessly stupid, too.

Wrestling with a cracker's spiritual constitution oughta take them about a thousand years. Unless they're willing to utilize the heretical magic of a can of Cheez-Whiz.

Craig @ 104: "I didn't see a single mention of WHY you posted what you did in the WT article"

Check out the 2nd paragraph of the article -- it's pretty well covered. Even mentions the original death threats and threats of expulsion aimed at the kid in Florida. Between that and Donohue's priceless "can't think of anything more vile" quote, I think the article does a fair job of stating the facts and letting the absurdity speak for itself.

Except for the headline, which I would classify under "true, but completely misses the point"

In light of the rumor that someone has a present for you at tonight's Pharyngufest.....

*Clicky-Pop*

Previous link doesn't seem to work properly so:

http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hazcrackerto5.jpg

(Oh, and I resisted the urge to caption it "Paul Z wanna cracker?"....but only by a hair.)

Remind me again about that commandment: "Thou shalt not make an idol", wasn't it? A priest turning a bit of biscuit into something representing something heavenly sounds exactly like making an idol to me. Do Catholics break this commandment at every single mass, then?

Kevin Hayden @ 105

And it took them all a mere 360 years or thereabouts to apologize to Galileo for demonstrating the earth revolved around the sun.

Robbie O'Connell put it rather well:

Dear Mr Galileo please forgive the long delay-o
You see we've been quite busy trying to settle an old schism
And of late we've had financial and other matters consequential
That demanded prompt attention though it was our best intention
To have let you know much sooner before the recent bout of rumours
That we fear we were too hasty with your excommunication

And in light of further knowledge and much discussion in the college
We've reassessed the situation and wish now in expiation
To revoke your former sentence and in a spirit of repentance
To extend our approbation of your cosmic explanation
And again we beg your pardon realizing its been hard on
A man of your education to have a tarnished reputation

And we trust if in the future your ideas need some nurture
That you'll have no hesitation to discuss the situation
With our confidential experts and hopefully we may avert
The long deliberation of such sacred litigation
And we send with deepest amity our best wishes for eternity
And we trust your suffering will cease and your soul forever rest in peace.
Amen.

Re: #110 -

That's nothin' compared to worshipping a chunk of wood...

PZ, glad you confirmed the meeting up in Atlanta later today. Have a safe flight and see you at Manuel's...

The extremely dishonest World Net Daily changed PZ's sentence. They replaced the word "web" with http://www.morris.umn.edu/index.php

Of course it's not possible to leave a comment on World Net Daily to point out their dishonesty.

Posted by: BobC | July 12, 2008 2:30 AM

But one can leave a comment on Dig to which WND links.
http://digg.com/people/WorldNet_Daily_Covers_PZ_Myers_Cracker_Controver…
Someone who is signed up to Dig might want to do that.