This is just to handle the overflow from this closed thread.
You crackerbaters are insane.
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The lights are out at Effect Measure. It is closed and locked. No one is there any more. So consider this a note tacked on the door. I had always intended to leave it as a way to connect you with The Pump Handle and that's still its purpose. But now I feel compelled to add a thank you note as well…
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Fresh Thread Oh BOY!!
Oh Crackers! I got the first post!
Yes... We know.
Come on, christians! Bring it on! This is round... uh, what round is it?
The suspense...
yea! Enough with the suspense! When do we get to know the surprise?!
Where are those cute ring girls, and where's that bottle of rum?
IOW
Lions 7 ....
Darn. I was going to reply to J. A. Stuart,
Commander, United States Navy. I wanted to point out some problems with his logic and then throw rank at him.
JoJo, CAPT, USN (Ret)
What kind of pompous idiot signs of a post with this ?
"Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy"
What relevance does his being a commander in the US Navy have to discussion ? Does Annapolis teach advanced theology or philosophy ? Or does he just think that by putting that we will think him less of an idiot ?
@David #1437, previous thread:
Gee, trying even harder to make the claims nonprovable now. How unique.
Although creationists and other trolling wackaloons are long known around these parts, the unending chasm of idiocy that has been attracted by the crackergate is on a whole new level. I guess that a whole new level in irrational inanity has been uncovered. I wonder how will the zombies react when PZ delivers evidence of the heinous "desecration"?
Blink... you desecrated a Koran... Well you are going to need all the prayers you can get. Good luck in what ever lasts of your short existence.
Even on a secular level, we can all relate to the need for reminders of the things not readily available to us. To have what we hold sacred close to us whether it is the faint smell of your wife's perfume on you when you are away at work; or the picture of a deceased child; the 1st place medal for that 8th grade science project. These are personal things that have no meaning to anyone else. Yet most can respect that, but we cannot respect this because it is of "God"? - yet another tedious godbot
Bill Donahue and most of the Catholics commenting here have been very insistent that the cracker is not just a "reminder" - it is actually part of God's body (we are, perhaps fortunately, not told which part). If one believed the picture of their deceased child actually was that child, they would be unhesitatingly diagnosed as delusional.
Moreover, there is an important difference between reminders of people we have known and loved and those of manufactured "celebrities" such as "God": compare Crackergate with the outpourings of "grief" in the UK when Princess Diana died - I assure you I have quite as much disrespect for the nonsense of people fooling themselves that her death was like losing a member of their own family, as I am of the absurdities the cracker-worshippers have posted here.
Sorry, cracker? Did I miss something?
Me too, JoJo. I wanted to tell him it is poor practice for still serving military to include rank and service. It implies that the service endorses the viewpoint. Not just here, but letters to editors, etc.
I also wanted to ask him to post his letters to UCF and Catholic League, since it's all about behavior and respect.
I would just like to acknowledge that JoJo is not so pompous. The only times I have seen him (her ?) refer to being a retired US Navy Captain have been in the post about BrokenSoldier and above. Both appropriate.
Holy shit, I can't believe this cracker business is still taking up multiple threads. Isn't anyone else as sick as this cracker crap as I am? I mean, there comes a point when it's all been said. Crazy catholics: we've heard it all a million times, give it a frigging rest. Don't you have to go to church or confession or something by now?
He closed the Batman thread? But that's important!
Oh, wait...
Somebody did point out to the ostentatious public prayer posters that that's Pharisee behaviour, right?
Oh, great! Now we have a new thread
to talk the same old rancid bread,
and some to berate:
"Thou shan't desecrate!
I'd rather my children were dead!"
"Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy".
Ahh! Thanks for pointing that out... I shall hereforto address you with the respect you so obviouls deserve, since you went out of your way to point it out to us.
Thank you, Commander Whackaloon.
Geoff at 11,
What do you mean by that?
Darn. I was going to reply to J. A. Stuart,
Commander, United States Navy. I wanted to point out some problems with his logic and then throw rank at him.
JoJo, CAPT, USN (Ret)
CAPT,
You'll notice I addressed Dr. Myers with his title as well. This isn't about "throwing rank around" but simply showing respect as a fellow professional and discussing things like gentlemen; something that is increasingly being lost in the college world, OUR NAVY, and society as a whole. Perhaps this is but another windmill I am tilting at but so be it. That aside sir, I welcome your opinion.
Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy
Why are we wasting all this intellectual effort over puerile, primitive, religious nonsense? Holy books, holy crackers, it's all crazy stuff. Feck god, (except none of them exist).
In reference to Jeffrey A. Stuart (#1478), a serious question for anybody:
Why should someone be dissapointed that attempts to harass and intimidate are not honored (or, as Jeffrey words it, respected)?
Even the crazed Catholics who came here and ranted in hyperboly should be able to see the obvious irony: Has the 'desecration' (which, let me remind you all, we don't know in what form it was) honestly affected the way you live and practice?
The dramatic flailings here lead me to make one charge to the hyper-sensitive godbots amongst us: get some perspective.
So sayeth me.
Trivia fact: 1480, the number of posts in the previous thread, was the same year the Spanish Inquisition - that noteworthy example of Catholic respect for other religions - was set up by the King and Queen of Spain.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled whackaloonery.
Surely at anytime when martial law is not in operation, any civilian is deemed to outrank anyone in any branch of the military?
AJS (Civilian)
It's plain to see the joke's on PZ.
IIRC, this all started out with PZ saying something like
"It's just a cracker, fer cryin' out loud".
Plainly it's not just a cracker.
Well it would be Professor Myers rather than simply doctor. So much for that respect eh ?
And also do not presume we are all Americans. If you mean the US Navy say so. Else some will think you are in the French Navy, some in the Royal Navy, Royal Australian Navy or Royal New Zealand Navy.
As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them. There is a phrase about the impossibility of defending the indefensible. PZ Myers actions are indefensible. And his acolytes appear to be willing partners to his crimes.
Kseniya quote on exorcisms and hell (post #1459): The delusion. It burns. Heh."
That's right Kseniya, every Catholic priest and nun is a liar. In fact, everyone you do not agree with is delusional or a liar. So during an exorcism when the possessed child speaks in languages they could not possibly have ever known previously, the witnesses are all liars? The levitations, the super human strength in a child, the furniture moving, the growling unnatural voices eminating from the child, these are all lies, too. So was Padre Pio a charlatan who bled from his hands and feet every day for 50 years. So also are those lying, tricky nuns who have statues of Mary and Jesus weeping tears of human blood. So, too, were the Fatima children who told the people gathered in three months time on October 13 Mary will perform a miracle for all to see and know this message is from God. So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination? Of course you wouldn't be frightened because you are so smart.
Oh great -- my long reply didn't post, and now I found out why. Since I wrote the darn thing in response to something I said myself, I'll put it here instead. But I won't promise to stick around for the entire thread.
SDG #1277 wrote:
The fact that the Eucharist is involved is mostly a matter of accident from PZ's perspective: it was what set off the initial public storm to which he is reacting. The problem here with claiming that the fact that the Eucharist is especially holy, and therefore the criticism should have been modified, is that, as we see it, immoderation is the very problem being addressed. The Catholics in this case are being over-sensitive from a secular perspective, and illegitimately insisting that their sense of outrage requires that blasphemy and desecration be treated as serious crimes. Actively expressing disagreement in dramatic fashion to both the Catholics themselves and -- more significantly -- to a culture which has become all-too-ready to pander unnecessarily to religious sensibilities, is, I think, legitimate.
Should PZ have solicited consecrated hosts which could only have been taken by people deceptively breaking a private contract? Technically speaking, no. You're right. As I've mentioned before, if anyone had asked me beforehand I'd have said no, don't, for just this reason. The "disruption" level is, technically speaking, very small -- but it's there.
But now there's a larger issue than this relatively small initial violation: the insistence that, because it is so very distressing to the religious, the initial trespass should be considered a much larger crime. The worst kind of crime. The emotional storm is cause for backing away in respect for over-inflated, immoderate, unrestrained emotional veneration. If something is considered "sacred," we should not touch it.
But that's what's being protested in the first place.
As one Catholic here wrote, "It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children."
Along with the many, many voices in society which reward and encourage this sort of thinking, I think we need some few and strong voices on the other side calling foul. This is not moral, it is not moderate, it is not restrained or restrain-able by reason or common sense or even common decency. Frankly, this line of thought is dangerous. It goes for the throat of the very concept of a rational and civil society.
So the issue is complicated.
More accurately, it is just a cracker, some people believe it isn't and also think everyone else should believe that simply because they do.
That's rather the point, although I fully expect it will go sailing by without a second glance....
Me too, JoJo. I wanted to tell him it is poor practice for still serving military to include rank and service. It implies that the service endorses the viewpoint. Not just here, but letters to editors, etc.
I also wanted to ask him to post his letters to UCF and Catholic League, since it's all about behavior and respect.
Sir,
There is no such prohibition on my signing with the rank that I have earned when speaking as a public citizen. I am a member of this society and have all of the same rights to speak out like anyone else and it in no way suggests endorsement by the Navy nor the United States government. My only hope in taking this tact was to rise above the chaff being thrown by both sides and appeal to Dr. Myers to reconsider what he has done.
Similarly, I have no issue with telling my fellow Catholics to "cool their jets" WRT mindless rhetoric. Perhaps you can do the same on your side of the fence?
V/r
There is nothing
@ Rooke
As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them.
We're all familiar already with your propensity for delusion. That you actually believe this statment comes as no surprise to us. More aptly, we're just growing tired of you demanding answers, then closing your eyes and blocking your ears when the're given. You're a bore, Mr. Rooke. You're fading into the background noise at this point, along with Fr. J.
Really, CDR, if you are still serving, it is inappropriate to put your rank and service on personal opinion pieces. It implies that you are representing the USN, which you are not.
Also, did you send any letters to the people who instigated this train of events, UCF and the Catholic League? Would you mind posting those letters as well?
@Pete Rook:
PJ receives junk mail. PJ throws out junk mail. Please explain how that is an indefensible position.
Turzovka@30,
Do you really not know that any religion could come up with a similar list of "miracles" - some fraudulent, others the product of honest but religiously-induced error? Grow up.
As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them...
Okay. Here's an analogy you may like. You're in a dungeon, wearing a miniskirt, and there's this blonde woman in a tight rubber suit. With a whip... And then there's these handcuffs... And an iron maiden... And... ummm... I dunno... Can we throw in a cattle prod? Is that kinky, or just sick?
Anyway, there's also this book...
Re: #1468 (!) (previous thread)
Wow, Barbara, you represent a whole new level of stoopid. That ranks down there with "you have to believe in God in order to reject Him" -- actual argument encountered numerous times
And, yet, those who propose this "argument" never accept that they must, therefore, believe in Zeus in order to reject him. Verily, "religion poisons everything."
Commander Cracker.
It's already been done. We're just waiting to see the youtube video. I hope it's funny. But it may just be a non-event.
"My only hope in taking this tact was to rise above the chaff being thrown by both sides and appeal to Dr. Myers to reconsider what he has done."
Reconsider it? And then what - UNdesecrate the cookie?
What are the magic words for that trick?
Gee, P.Z., you wanted attention and you got it. There's no pleasing some people. I do sympathize, though: I've gotten into more than one flamewar online and then wondered what I could have been thinking. (Partly thanks to your example, I've largely given up on worrying about civility. Gaze upon your works, o Mighty One, and be proud.)
"So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination? Of course you wouldn't be frightened because you are so smart."
uh... Huh. Or at least a load of bullshit. The Sun is a physical body. If the sun suddenly charged at us and danced around we would've burned to death. That and EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET WOULD'VE SEEN IT
A guy on a forum I checked puts it the best:
"I have a hard time believing in this, despite the fact that 70,000 people witnessed it. When you have that many people sitting around, anticipating something, looking for anything that might seem unusual, someone is bound to come up with something. And then what is everyone else going to say? Everyone wants to have seen it, because those who didn't weren't special enough to receive the "communication". Was there any chance that these people were going to go home without having seen anything?"
Sheesh, what is it with you idiots.
I wonder if his secret third entry is going to be a copy of origin of species just to show that nothing is sacred...
@30: since you ask, yes, your fairy storires are indeed fairy stories. You may be confusing movies with real life. Padre Pio, like all stigmatics, faked his wounds, apparently with carbolic acid. You have to be quite seriously deluded to find "Person X is miraculously wounded by God" more plausible than "Person X mildly injures themselves and then basks in the adoration of the gullible."
Turzovka
Masss hysteria and Pious Fraud are not miracles. If you could take a throwaway lighter back 200 years (heck, how about 100), it would be called a miracle. But we both know that the lighter has a valve to release a flammable gas, a wheel with a sparker on it that scrapes a piece of flint, and a little vessel of flammable fluid.
Expected reaction troll. Nothing to see here...
PZ, when there are multiple threads on the same topic like this, I think it would be a good idea for you to summarize the points that have been made ad nauseam, and ask people not to rehash the same thing over and over, rather than just saying "fresh thread", which seems to imply "new beginning, repeat everything". That would also give people just joining the discussion the ability to meaningfully contribute without reading 10000 posts.
Aaron Barker (#42) lamented,
Excuses, excuses.
I'm truly enjoying it. For so long Muslims have been routinely castigated as "unhinged" and "frothing" because of stupid crap like death threats because of cartoons, etc., while the Catholics and other Christians have been on their soapbox about how much better they are than them...
Add in the usual racism, claims to the lack of "civilization" (as if we didn't get it from them, hello?) on their part and the entire explicit/implicit religious/racial stereotyping and superiority claims...
And all it takes is ONE FRIGGIN' CRACKER and it's the 15th Century all over again. All we're lacking are actual pitchforks and torches even though we have the Internet equivalent. So, when the vast bulk of conservative and moderate Christian churches say "not us," we can say:
Bullshit, same as...
@#30.
Regarding your lengthy list of the miraculous, the answer is a resounding YES, or even a DUH!
Unless these miracles can be reproduced on demand, in controlled conditions and ideally doubled blinded, they are to be considered the product of insanity, lies or stupidity, and more often than not, an interlocking, opaque rats nest of all three.
It really is that simple. There is only one way to "know" things, and the garbled transmission of what some breathless, credulous dolt whispered into the ear of a similarly ignorant primitive, who then mayhap wrote it down, does not meet the required standard of evidence.
We've gained notoriety,
And caused much anxiety
In the Audubon Society
With our games.
They call it impiety,
And lack of propriety,
And quite a variety
Of unpleasant names.
But you couldn't call PZ a slacker
To want to dispose of a cracker.
(Apologies to Tom Lehrer)
Not against any law to destroy a book or a biscuit. Is against the law to cause property or personal damage to anyone who does so. Read it and weep god-botherers. Watch your back though, Dr Myers, if nothing else this whole affair has shown that the deranged lunatic quotient is a lot higher than previously thought.
But that puts the burden on Myers to actually read all the posts devoted to this drivel.
No human has the time, but maybe he could get the cracker to do it?
You know, Mr. Myers, you've just proven our point. If it's just a cracker, who gives a flying leap whether you eat it, bury it in the garden or give it to your dog. However, since you get all this press coverage, there must be SOMETHING to the claims that the Blessed Sacrament is something more than "just a cracker." Count yourself lucky -- if you'd profaned a picture of Mohammed, you wouldn't have lived long enough to try to collect names and addresses. We Catholics know that God forbids murder, and that He desires not the death of the sinner, but his repentance. I'm praying for you, Mr. Myers, whether you like it or not.
By the way, I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week, cleaned, sanitized and de-agared per laboratory standards, and giving it to a Catholic of the community (if the student himself/herself was Catholic of course they could do it) to be ceremonially crushed outside the door of your office. But that would be silly and childish. After all, it's just a piece of glassware.
And if you want my address, Mr. Myers, just check www.smartpages.com.
SUMMARY:
"It's just a cracker"
"No, it's not."
An unfortunate consequence of religious thinking is the idea that no one has ever heard (or debunked) your "completely convincing" argument before. Even when it's been pointed out to you. A hundred times.
So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination?
Probably a bit of both. It's not like Fatima (and the other Marian pilgrimage sites) haven't made a lot of money out of the "apparitions". Forging religious relics has a long history in Europe and the Near East.
Mix in the kind of delusion that equates a piece of magic wafer with a human life and you could certainly have mass hysteria and hallucination.
Imagine you were one among 70,000 fanatical Catholics who didn't see the Sun dance (a phenomenon strangely unremarked upon by astronomers of the time). Would you speak up and say you hadn't seen anything strange our would you go along with the crowd?
One thing these threads are good for is to show that those who criticised Dawkins, Sam Harris and others for attacking a straw man of primitive irrational faith were completely wrong.
Religion inspires delusional lunacy and the stuff posted by the Catholics here is ample evidence to that effect.
Matt Penfold (#28)
You only address a full professor as "Professor." An assistant or associate professor is addressed as "Dr." Tradition.
PZ is an Associate Professor, thus he is Dr. Myers.
Sincerely,
Professor Coleman
Why should someone be dissapointed that attempts to harass and intimidate are not honored (or, as Jeffrey words it, respected)?
Even the crazed Catholics who came here and ranted in hyperboly should be able to see the obvious irony: Has the 'desecration' (which, let me remind you all, we don't know in what form it was) honestly affected the way you live and practice?
The dramatic flailings here lead me to make one charge to the hyper-sensitive godbots amongst us: get some perspective.
So sayeth me.
Mr. Stello,
Reasonable questions and reasonable point. As a Catholic, I don't like what he has purportedly done but according to my beliefs I have effectively done the same thing through my own sins. That is what I would call Catholics to focus upon; our own sinful nature.
That being said, we can only control our own actions and I would have liked to see Dr. Myers (coming from a profession I respect) rise above such things and take the high road even when others don't. It seems to me that if we are going to use other's peoples poor behavior as an excuse for our own, then things will never improve.
V/r
Duh, I meant I was responding to something which was responding to something I wrote. I only talk to myself in secret.
As long as it looks like the thread is still in double digits, I thought I'd endorse what someone, somewhere on that other massive thread. PZ wrote "The cracker, the koran, and another surprise entry have been violated and are gone. " I really do hope that the third surprise entry is a copy of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species.
If there is one symbol which might, in a sense, be considered "sacred" to an evolutionary biologist, that would be it. Desecrating this book, therefore, would make clearer the point that it's the idea of sacrilege itself that is being protested. Nothing should be so sacred -- untouchable, inviolable, or respected -- that it should not be subject to the harshest kinds of criticism. Especially what is dear to us.
We need to be restrained, moderate, and respectful of our common human tendency to overreact and become over-attached to symbols, and try not to do it, whether we be religious or not. So let us all stick our tongues out at the Origin of Species, blow a rude raspberry -- and then learn to get over it.
Professor Coleman,
Where I come from a Professor is a Professor. There are no "ranks", you either are or you ain't. And PZ is.
It makes you sound cool to have a fancy title.
Signed Raven,
Head of the Galactic True Catholic Truth and Justice League; Most Holy Subpope
I have no idea what "miracle" you are referring to. But if the Sun started to move about, it would not be seen by just 70,000 people. It would potentially be seen by at least half of the world's population. Yet we seem to be lacking these reports from distant lands.
And you are calling most of us idiots? Please learn how to reason. It will make you less gullible.
Sorry Michelle, you are clearly an atheist or agnostic so I guess I cannot get through to you that for God, who created the entire universe, to have the sun defy cosmic laws at Fatima Portugal and it not be witnessed by the entire world, that is not much of a trick for Him. But for you to say that 70,000 witnesses all had a mass hallucination is an easy way to weasel your way out of honest examination of the facts. Why not read them in the October 15, 1917 Lisbon newspaper, O Seculo? It is a communist paper who sent atheist journalists to witness and mock the event. They were spellbound and forced to report on what they saw for themselves. I doubt they wanted to see a miracle so I doubt they imagined it. Why not read the accounts in that paper that the ground was totally soaked and muddy as their clothes but after the 12 minute phenomenon every thing was bone dry? Or did they imagine that too? No let's call it mass hallucination and go have another beer with our brave friends who laugh at the thought of a God.
Belief != fact.
Koran envy.
Praying at you.
Theft analogy.
Really. Can't we just number these bogus arguments and save us all a bunch of typing?
In these threads, are we godless crackerbaiters?
So who created God, if everything needs a creator?
If God didn't need a creator, why does the universe?
About Mr. Rooke's "analogies":
"You see a man about to rape a woman. At the same time, another man is about to desecrate a consecrated Host. If you intervene you can prevent one of those things from happening, but not in time to prevent the other too. Which one do you choose to prevent?"
Give that test to 100 people and you'll be surprised how many intolerant people there are around.
Fatima is thee miracle that skeptics cannot explain away.
Below is the text of a science professor who was present on October 13. His testimony is surely validated by many sources. His account is not one of a religious zealot, but one of an unbiased observer.
An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal
"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time
"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.
Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.
"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.
"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.
"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."
Summary:
PZ threatened to take someone's pretend security blanket and destroy it thereby making a point about belief. Thousands died...or would have done 200 years ago. Instead nasty emails were sent.
PZ destroyed security blanket. We are waiting for proof.
State of world = World not yet destroyed.
Rivers of blood = 0
Feelings hurt = 5 christians and their 30 sock puppets.
The condensed J. A. Stuart:
...gentlemen...as a man...men...gentleman...fellow man...
Indeed, how disappointing.
Indeed.
Jeffrey A. Stuart,
Why are you refusing to answer the question as to whether you have contacted other parties involved in all thus ?
It is really a pretty simple question but one that would be telling if you cannot give an affirmative answer. Since Webster Cook was assaulted by a "Eucharist Minister", and the dioceses concerned called his taking the wafer a "hate crime", have you contacted the dioceses ? Have you contacted the University of Central Florida, where the alleged cracker abduction occurred ? Have you contacted Bill Donohue to point out to him he does not speak for Catholics ?
A simple yes or no will do.
No. You were waving your dick, asshole. I don't sign with my old rank. I don't throw around my titles. I don't bring up that I'm effing related to the Queen of England and if, oh, maybe a few tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people higher up in the succession died and I made a byzantine and tortured claim I could be the next King of England. (Of course, if that happened, the death toll will be in the billions and I'd likely be one of them...)
In other words, big fucking deal. I have to be known for my arguments, not my remote-to-the-point-of-ludicrous shot at a title. Or that I made rank in the military which (having been in there, isn't hard, you guys are (on average) as dumb as a box of rocks compared to the profession in which I excel).
Dumb-ass.
"By the way, I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week, cleaned, sanitized and de-agared per laboratory standards, and giving it to a Catholic of the community (if the student himself/herself was Catholic of course they could do it) to be ceremonially crushed outside the door of your office. But that would be silly and childish. After all, it's just a piece of glassware."
Do you actually think PZ would have been offended? Do you think he considers a petri dish, or ANYTHING, sacred?
Are you that fucking stupid?
Oh gee, your analogies all have to do with rape and dead bodies. Sign of a seriously defective psycopath.
Although, there is another explanation. Rooke could be an undead, a zombie. What we call dead bodies he calls dinner. I pity anyone who lives within a few hundred miles of him.
Can someone please explain to Turzovka the limitations of eye-witness testimony and how easy it is to manipulate people into seeing things that were not there, or not seeing things that were there. Magicians use that fact to perform their tricks.
Well, if your head wasn't shoved so far up your ass you might have noticed that they were. Only you're too dense to see that they were.
I fail to see how a "sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible." could be seen with a calm manner.
I should also point out that those effects described would occur if anybody looked at the sun. I fail therefore to understand why you think this a miracle.
Matt Penfold
Don't address me as Professor. I hate it. My name is Rob.
Unfortunately, you are wrong. Academic tradition, for what it's worth, is as I stated. You are not addressed as "Professor" until you are actually a fully vested Professor. Not an assistant or associate. Personally, it is irrelevant, as most students and staff address faculty as "Dr."
And if you want my address, Mr. Myers, just check www.smartpages.com.
Posted by: Cynthia Heimsoth
Your concerns have been note and will be ignored. Please do not waste anytime waiting for any contact.
And for your information, most of us here do not believe that any supernatural being is being harmed by the smashing of a petri dish. But I love the sound of breaking glass.
From: CAPT J.J. Smuckitelli, USN (Ret)
To: CDR J.A. Stuart, USN
Subj: Proper Preparation of Correspondence
Ref: (a) SECNAVINST 5216.5D
(b) Amendment 1, United States Constitution
1. Reference (a) discourages the use of military titles when writing informally on non-military subjects.
2. It is my recommendation that you refrain from using your rank and military branch when discussing religion and religious matters on a public blog. Such use might be considered a violation of reference (b).
3. I apologize for not following the formatting requirements of reference (a). Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with HTML to properly format this letter.
/s/
J.J. Smuckitelli
Turzovka at 30,
Yes, it's all bullshit.
How about all the countless miracles attributed to the Hindu gods or the god of Islam? I suppose you think all their holy people are liars, all their countless claimed miracles were committed by charlatans. You probably believe that the Hindu "milk miracle" of 1995 was a mass hallucination.
You see, you don't accept other religion's miracles. They must be wrong... or maybe done by the devil! If you would view your own silly religion with the same skepticism as you do others, you would end up one of us. An atheist. But you don't. Maybe you can't. Try though, huh? Try taking off the blinders.
I think the argument: "The miracle at fatima really happened! Here's a newspaper picture of a lot of people staring at the sky!" deserves some kind of award for unprecedented levels of fail.
Here's a few suggested miracles:
Quadruple amputee grows new limbs, gets up and walks.
Stephen Hawking gets up and walks.
The Pope gains the ability to fly.
A message appears written on the Moon in 100-mile-wide letters, accurately predicting the medal list of the 2012 Olympics.
Any of those happens, maybe we can talk. Shouldn't be any challenge for a deity, right?
Note: anyone responding that God wouldn't do anything that obvious as he respects our free will has to agree to never cite any miracle story ever again.
@Janine ID: Uh? Janine? Did you notice I was quoting someone? Did you read anything I wrote? Sorry, I don't know how to make fancy quote blocks like the other folks here so I just use the good ol' " "
@Turzovka: Okay, let's say it really DID happen (ah, why the hell are time machines not existing yet?) so what's your proof that this was a sign from YOUR God and not MY God?
Yea, MY god. I just decided to found up my own religion 30 seconds ago, and my god's the One True God and he's a practical joker.
The nun woman could've made up that she saw the virigin mary, and made the kids say so. Then she made up that "let's see the miracle!" thing and everyone gathered. As a joke, the One God (let's call him Dude.), who has a great sense of humor and just LOVES to mess up with our heads, decided to fuck up the sun.
Now, tell me, what makes my version less valid than yours?
I love how the Catholics are so sure the Muslims would off PZ in a heartbeat. Talk about bigots.
@ Cynthia, the point is not that we believe it's something special, but we believe that you believe it's something special. That you believe we should bow to your beliefs that it's something special, even though we don't believe.
Which is of course beyond belief.
Incidentally, if the mysterious 3rd object is one of Tove Janssons Moomin books, a Miyazaki film or ANYTHING to do with The Little Mermaid, PZ is toast. We all have our sacred cows. ;-)
I'm betting on a copy of "Origin of Species" though.
It's plain to see the joke's on PZ.
IIRC, this all started out with PZ saying something like
"It's just a cracker, fer cryin' out loud".
Plainly it's not just a cracker.
Posted by: Forrest Prince | July 24, 2008 10:05 AM
Ain't it the truth.
Turzovka
So you're saying there couldn't have possibly been some natural, atmospheric and localized phenomenon that caused people in a specific place to see something while the rest of the world didn't? Really?
And as a follow up... why does god hate the rest of the world except Fatima? Is that the only place worthy? He couldn't have done something like this for say, the vatican?
And lastly, in 1983, thousands of people swore David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear right before their eyes. Can'r possibly be a mass halucination, according to your logic... right?
Matt Penfold (#8) wrote:
His job has no relevance at all, but he does provide more strong evidence our military is infested with religious wackos who would say 'I write to express my disappointment that you chose to carry through on your threat' as if abusing a cracker is a big deal.
I'm still hoping for "Dianetics"
You know, the oldest trick in the book is to say that the opposing side is crazy and making stupid claims. Unfortunately, as Augustine says, "for the one who believes no explanation is necessary; for the one who does not believe no explanation is possible." By definition one cannot prove by sensory evidence that a consecrated Host is any different from an unconsecrated Host. "Seeing, tasting, touching are in Thee deceived; How says trusty hearing? That shall be believed." Either you believe or you don't. However, the vitriol that has been spewed in these threads against those who do believe suggests that there is some core of belief masquerading as disbelief in Prof. Myers' mind and that of his followers. I happen to believe that a bald eagle is just a bird, and one of its fallen feathers is not that much different from a pigeon feather. However, I don't take great pains to go to a Native American pow-wow and pounce on any fallen eagle feather to crush it into the dirt and chop it up into tiny pieces just to show those ignorant primitives that my belief is superior to theirs. It's too much effort for too little return. Besides, in this modern society of ours, there is an ongoing call for tolerance and equality, and allowing others to believe what they like so long as you may believe what you like. The fury and vitriol is reminiscent of -- well, a twenty-something who has finally gotten out from under the parental thumb and decides to smash all his family idols to prove that HE'S HIS OWN MAN, HE DOESN'T NEED THAT MAMBY-PAMBY RELIGIOUS CRAP. Most of us outgrow that long before we get our sheepskins. Some of us do indeed leave our family faith, but we lose the need to strike out against our parents by striking out against their idols. We just say, "Whatever," and go on. Some of us, especially those of us who start families, discover that -- shock! -- there really is Something/Somebody bigger than ourselves, and there are things that reason and science simply cannot explain, "and this all men know as God." (Thomas Aquinas, _Summa Theologia_, copied from http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.html
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from any atheist of why it is so culturally universal (and therefore apparently necessary) that humans "created" gods, whereas with a little bit of research I could probably formulate a sound theory of why it is so necessary that Homo sapiens modernis should reject the existence of God as a threat to his belief that he is the very peak of the Darwinian pyramid.
The third object is Jimmy Hoffa.
"Unfortunately, you are wrong. Academic tradition, for what it's worth, is as I stated. You are not addressed as "Professor" until you are actually a fully vested Professor. Not an assistant or associate. Personally, it is irrelevant, as most students and staff address faculty as "Dr.""
Rob,
There are no such things as assistant or associate professors in the UK. As I pointed out, you are either a professor or you are not.
I clearly was wrong in assuming that PZ would be entitled to use the title Professor. However you are also wrong in assuming that we have associate and assistant professors in the UK.
JoJo, you Rock!!
Stacy (USN Ret)
Rob,
Academic tradition varies from place to place. In some areas, Oz for example, it is as you suggest, only a full professor is addressed as professor. In others, the east coast of the US, any full time professor, full, associate or assistant is addressed as professor.
Shrug. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
@Turzovka:
Sorry Michelle, you are clearly an atheist or agnostic so I guess I cannot get through to you that for God, who created the entire universe, to have the sun defy cosmic laws at Fatima Portugal and it not be witnessed by the entire world, that is not much of a trick for Him.
Yet the same God can't seem to prevent several million children starving to death every year, or keep a cracker out of harms way. Even when it's abuser gives a heads up of several days. 3-O just ain't what it used to be:-)
Anecdote is not evidence, not even when it's 70K anecdotes. Then there is the issue of the number. Was every person who "saw" the miracle interviewed? Have you read the transcripts of their testimony? Of course you haven't, you are just breathlessly retelling a bullshit story that any well educated child could refute.
Lets see it reproduced on demand, then we'll talk. In the meantime, I'll stick to the mass hallucination theory, because after all, we have evidence that such mass events actually happen (just watching an episode of Derren Brown should give you pause for thought), the sun dancing around the heavens? Not so much.
Michelle, I am sorry. I only read the first paragraph and the final line. In my defense, I will point out it is useful to indicate when something is not said by you by blockquoting.
I hope you accept my apology.
Ain't it missing the point....
"It's plain to see the joke's on PZ.
IIRC, this all started out with PZ saying something like
"It's just a cracker, fer cryin' out loud".
Plainly it's not just a cracker"
This is correct, it is not just a cracker. Rather it is a representation of centuries of deluding people and oppressing those who disagree even to the point of torture & execution. How Donohue must yearn for the good old days when would actually be relevant -- tough titty, Bill!
A ways back uo the page, there was a post describing various "miracles" including the one concerning a trio of chippies actually conversing with the late & long decomposed Mary. I must request: please produce reference acceptable to scientific inquery. If you cannot do this, and you can't, then you have no argument beyond an appeal to fantasia.
doov
Surely if your god is omnipotent, he has the power to undo anything he did. If god performs the miracale of transubstantiation that puts himself into the cracker, then surely he can also leave it at will, and thus avoid "desecration."
Or can your god create a cracker so unescapable that even he cannot get out of it?
"I'm praying for you, Mr. Myers, whether you like it or not."
Can't speak for anyone else, but if someone was talking to themselves for me, I wouldn't like it or dislike it. I would just think it was really stupid.
Ale (#10) wrote:
I predict they will prove there's no difference between Muslim terrorists and Catholic terrorists.
Cynthia: the concept that humans create the idea of gods is simply an observation; we tell stories with "gods" that have very human attributes- jealousy, pride, anger, and an obsession with genitalia. Ipso facto each religion claims that all the others are made up, which is the one point they're all correct on :)
There's no such thing as a Darwinian Pyramid nor does evolutionary theory say we're at the peak of anything. Hint: phylogenetic tree. Be less ignorant in future.
To follow up on Academic titles, the ranks of academia are Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and Professor.
Professors normally are either departmental heads or hold some other chair in their subject.
The only exception I am aware of is the University of Exeter which calls Readers, Associate Professors.
Plainly it's not just a cracker.
No, it is a cracker. The furor over these desecrations says more about religious zealots than it does about their desecrated objects.
#54: "Count yourself lucky -- if you'd profaned a picture of Mohammed, you wouldn't have lived long enough to try to collect names and addresses."
More likely, if he'd profaned a picture of Mohammed, most muslims would have said "oh, good, he destroyed a forbidden image out of respect for our beliefs", or something along those lines. If they gave a damn at all.
"By the way, I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week, cleaned, sanitized and de-agared per laboratory standards, and giving it to a Catholic of the community (if the student himself/herself was Catholic of course they could do it) to be ceremonially crushed outside the door of your office. But that would be silly and childish. After all, it's just a piece of glassware."
Wow. You actually believe that anyone would care about you 'profaning' petri dishes? The cluttering up of the corridor outside his office to deposit the remnants, I dare say, would be more objectionable.
@Janine ID:
S'all ok hon, I understand that. :) But um, like I just said in my explanation...
"Sorry, I don't know how to make fancy quote blocks like the other folks here so I just use the good ol' quotes"
Can people please stop laying down the law about academic titles when they vary between countries and institutions.
I've been following this website for the last couple months and have been fully aware of the circumstances of Crackergate. I have even read 7,846 of the 9,475 comments relating to the threads.
I do not believe in the existence of god(s). I do not follow the creeds of any organized religion in my daily life. Perhaps it is because I have read books of religious scholarship (as one would read the Odyssey) and I realize the regular commenters hate this sort of comment but I don't think you guys are going about this in a reasonable way at all. I realize there is a LOT of misinformation coming from the other side and no little amount of red herring and straw man arguments. However, as ridiculous as the religious arguments are, there are hundreds of atheist or agnostic comments that say in some order, "sick fuck child rape, Pope Nazi, go believe in your imaginary sky daddy, Idiot!"
I realize that this is not the ordinary or perhaps even proper venue to try to convince people of their erroneous ways but for goodness sakes, don't let them drag you down to their illogical, spewing level! Try to find your better, whip sharp selves (which I have seen plenty of in scientific posts) and forget this false rage induced bravado.
# 90
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from any atheist of why it is so culturally universal (and therefore apparently necessary) that humans "created" gods...
Well, then you should stop closing your eyes when you read the thousands of good arguments that have been made for this, or uncover your ears when you hear them.
...whereas with a little bit of research I could probably formulate a sound theory of why it is so necessary that Homo sapiens modernis should reject the existence of God as a threat to his belief that he is the very peak of the Darwinian pyramid.
Well, since you invented this premise and assertion just now... go ahead! First prove your statement of premise (hint: you can't). Then formulate your theory. Then present it to the scientific community for peer review, like all theories, and please don't be afraid to get your feelings hurt when it is torn to shreds and rightfully discarded.
Michelle, it is easy. Just add (blockquote) and (/blockquote) to the beginning and end of what you wish to high light. Only, use use the 'greater then' and 'less then' signs instead of brackets.
Turzovka, the event described appears more like to be of a meteor falling.
And it could be any other thing. People may think it to be the sun, but people think a lot of stupid things.
And a strange phenomena does not proves the existence of any supernatural being. It is just a phenomena not yet explained.
Appeal to civility.
Is it about the bread, or is it Myers?
This guy they hope no one hires.
I do have crackers
And I'll abuse those snackers,
But they don't threaten me with their fires.
@Cynthia #90 -- Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer is not a bad place to start for some good current thought on why humans created "gods".
@ Cynthia. Sperm whales. Bigger than all of us.
The Fatima Kerfuffle? Well, if the crowd realised they could make good money out of the Emperor having no clothes on they'd have grabbed the kid and handed him over to the ones who thought that not only was the Emperor's word sacred but that they should kill anyone who disagreed with him. This isn't a miracle, it's a depressing confirmation of human nature.
I also want to point out that in the UK it is not a requirement to have a doctorate in order to become a professor, although it is very unusual for a professor not also have doctorate.
Mick Aston, Professor of Archaeology at Bristol University never got a Phd. Apparently a few days before he was due to submit it, his van and contents, including the manuscript, were stolen.
In case it hasn't been mentioned in the 5000+ comments...
Sure it might be a cracker, but then how do you explain PYGMIES+DWARVES.
I suppose the best argument that you can make against the desecrations is that, even if the belief in transubstantiation is absurd, the unfortunate followers of this doctrine have been the victims of brainwashing since childhood, and they should be treated with the same sensitivity as anyone else with a brain disorder -- like military vets with PTSD.
In fact, there are psychologists who specialize in helping people who have left their religion, especially to overcome the reflexive anxiety and guilt that they have about apostasy, sex, etc. The extreme forms of religious indoctrination are nothing short of child abuse.
I am really looking forward to the cracker post. From wikipedia:
and crackers:
I hope that you've done something immoral to the cracker/wafer.
Oh bother. Now we're going to need four more threads.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from any atheist of why it is so culturally universal (and therefore apparently necessary) that humans "created" gods
Then you've read nothing relevant, given the issue even less thought and misunderstood what little of the transmission may have leaked through the faraday cage of your religious upbringing.
I'll try and make it simple. Why do dogs bark when snow falls off a roof, or cats start at sudden gusts of wind? They do it because not to do so when the cause is a puma, or a caveman with a club results in death. There is a clear evolutionary benefit to over attributing intention.
The misfiring of this same core functionality in humans, makes us attribute all kinds of utterly insane intention and design, to entirely inert objects in our environment.
Not so hard, after all, huh?
Hm,
at least they've come up with something genuinely new in this thread: miracles and exorcisms !!
Why that would convince me more than the made up 3000 year old goatherder stories is beyond me,but hey,nothing surprises me with christians anymore.
So let the games begin,lets talk about Fatima !!
Turzovka babbled @ 63:
//that for God, who created the entire universe, to have the sun defy cosmic laws at Fatima Portugal and it not be witnessed by the entire world, that is not much of a trick for Him//
Much into tricks,is he,your god?Bit of a trickster? Felt a lil kinky one day,had nothing else to do in the rest of the entire universe he created,and thought he'd play a lil trick on them Portuguese guys?
That what happened? Yup,make sense to me,nice one,your god sounds fun,where can I sign up??
Plainly it's not just a cracker.
Posted by: Forrest Prince
The cracker is a MacGuffin.
with a little bit of research I could probably formulate a sound theory of why it is so necessary that Homo sapiens modernis should reject the existence of God as a threat to his belief that he is the very peak of the Darwinian pyramid. - Cynthia Heimsoth (my emphasis)
An economical way of demonstrating your complete ignorance of evolutionary theory, and indeed, of Darwin's own insight into the non-teleological, non-progressive nature of evolution by natural selection. He gave himself the advice (which, admittedly, he did not always follow) "Never say higher or lower".
By the way, if you really think you could "probably formulate" such a sound theory with trivial effort, why don't you?
It is very scary how apropos that description is.
This whole thing makes me wish natural selection was more of a key element in todays society. Fundamental whackaloons runing rampent all over the place, on all sides. Honestly geting sick and tired of all this chest puffing about religious symbols. It's high time my fellow atheists just shut up.
While pointing out the absurdity of giving religion a special respect is one thing. Acting like a complete jack ass flameing eachother on the internet is worthy of entry into the special olympics for all participants.
"Mick Aston, Professor of Archaeology"
Yay Mick! I'm one of the few Americans who isn't an archaeologist who knows who you're talking about. Thanks to the wonders of the usenet, I've seen ever Time Team episode ever made.
Time Team - yet another reason I'd leave the US and emigrate to the UK if I were able.
Sweet! It works!!!! Thanks Janine!!
It is in poor taste to demean the mentally ill. Turzovka clearly needs medication, not internet banter.
Duvenoy (#98) wrote:
It's true! Mary still speaks to people. Look at this:
Message of June 25, 2008 "Dear children! Also today, with great joy in my heart, I call you to follow me and to listen to my messages. Be joyful carriers of peace and love in this peaceless world. I am with you and I bless you all with my Son Jesus, the King of Peace. Thank you for having responded to my call."
This scam has been going on in Medjugorje for 27 years. The dead Mary started talking to a group of children in 1981, and the Mary zombie continues to talk to them today. These children, who are now adults, of course get paid for being part of the scam. The messages from the dead Mary are of course made up. What's interesting is how incredibly gullible their customers are. I met a bunch of these wackos. They really believe a decomposed corpse can talk. There is nobody more insane than Catholics.
Wow it's a little reassuring that stupid superstitious beliefs are not the absolute domain of catholic third world countries like mine, there are plenty of idiots in first world countries too!!! Maybe we are not so far behind (or is the USA going backwards?)
PZ is the best!
"I'm praying for you, Mr. Myers, whether you like it or not."
Okay, well, have fun talking to yourself!
Cynthia wailed:
HA HA HA!!! HA! This coming from someone who believes that humans are the pinnacle of creation!!
You just busted the hell out of my irony meter you twit.
@BobC:
Now that's just being discriminatory to all other religions.
Mick Aston, Professor of Archaeology at Bristol University never got a Phd. Apparently a few days before he was due to submit it, his van and contents, including the manuscript, were stolen. - Matt Penfold
I heard the dog ate it ;-)
Excellent TV performer as well as (I'm sure) a highly respected scientist.
Well, not to sound like a reaction troll or anything, but I'm also kind of surprised by the response to this. All PZ has to do is put the word "cracker" in a post, and it seems it will drag in a busload of bat-shit crazy Christians.
Really... It's just a cracker. And, it's freakin' hilarious that people are willing to make complete and total asses out of themselves in order to defend a cracker.
I mean, this cracker doesn't have the slightest bit of magic. It's not like bacon. If PZ were somehow violating bacon, I can see getting all bent out of shape. Bacon is good. Bacon is love. The world's ills can all be cured with bacon... (sorry. I get distracted easily).
Anyway, if you go back and look at the comment numbers on the various cracker posts, it's just funny. Even those comment threads that have nothing to do with any of this have been hijacked by the Cracker Liberation Army, and the numbers just spin into madness.
It's Crazy, but it has made for a damn fun summer.
What I find interesting is that the town where the Miracle of the Sun supposedly took place presently has a population of about 8000. What population it had in 1917 I don't know, but it seems 70,000 visitors would have made quite an impact.
Dahan from Message #81: You are wrong on your assumption about me disbelieving in Hindu miracle claims. And how do additional miracles bolster the atheist's argument of No God anyway? Hindu glass cows exuding milk. I believe it, and I believe it is supernatural. Another one drinking milk. I believe it to be supernatural. Other supernatural manifestations from the Islam or Buddhist faiths. I believe them that they are supernatural. I am not looking for crazy improbable "natural" answers to try to explain them away..
I am of strong belief most of these "hard-to-explain-away" well documented manifestations of any faith, or no faith, are either of God or are diabolic. I will not offer an opinion on most if they are diabolic or not, such as those in the Hindu faith. Actually, I will. I am guessing they are godly directing the believers towards some virtue.
I do not believe the Christian faith is the true faith because of the miracles I have put forth. I believe that is but one important ingredient. So much more is necessary to validate which faith is the true faith. The magnanimous degree of the manifestation carries weight. Even more so does the very detailed message and the fruits of the event. Beyond miracles, is what else does the faith claim and have to offer? The historical record. The charity of the faith. The incomparable saints. So and so on. Far more is required, agreed. I just cannot go into all that right now, but that is actually the greater reason why I accept Christianity as the fullest and most truthful of God's message. The miracles assist in validating it for me, not in demonstrating it's main importance or message.
Sidenote: If there ever were any so-called UFO appartions that really took place and were seen by humans --- those I believe to be demonic apparitions in order to deceive those more readily open to decption. You know that funny looking red guy with a pitchfork? Just a cartoon to you of course.
"PZ Myers actions are indefensible. And his acolytes appear to be willing partners to his crimes." - Pete Rooke
I thought some very elegant defenses have been mounted. I don't think PZ should have loosed the dogs on crackers everywhere, but I think it's important to keep these things in perspective. We must remember that the bible (and thus catholicism) dubs non-belief the most serious of sins (it even has its own commandment), and calls for the extermination of non-believers. I don't think a global call to steal crackers really stands up as an ethical breech against the massive wall of Catholic (indeed all Cristian) hate - reinforced with every service, every tainted ritual, every foaming acolyte, every ironic call for "respect".
Ben, (message #129) I cannot help you. I do pity you. Go bravely into the long dark night (known as death) and be sure to shake your fist at God like Stalin did on his death bed. And all this time we thought we did not believe.
I love TimeTeam. Very British, the way grown people can get so excited over finding a bit of mud covered pot.
"If there ever were any so-called UFO appartions that really took place and were seen by humans --- those I believe to be demonic apparitions in order to deceive those more readily open to decption. You know that funny looking red guy with a pitchfork? Just a cartoon to you of course. "
Yeah, this is to sad and tragic to make fun of. Mental illness isn't funny. this guy needs therapy and some good medication.
As I pointed out earlier, the Catholic church in the US is dying. Losing members, etc.
If they really want to get popular, they should switch from crackers and make their god transform into little bite-sized pieces of pizza.
I mean, it's not like there's something inherent about the type of cracker, right? God is all-powerful, he can take the form of what ever kind of confection or baked good he wants, right? It's all in the magic words, isn't it?
I mean look... the reason the church uses little thin tasteless wafers is because they are very inexpensive. That way the church can save money to use on more important things like vast hoards of treasure and gigantic expensive buildings. You know, stuff that matters.
But now the church is dwindling - wouldn't it make sense to invest a little into increasing membership?
USE PIZZA. Seriously. Maybe have different lines you can get into - one for pepperoni, one for veggie lovers pizza, etc.
Make God TASTY and more people will want to eat him!
#138
So much more is necessary to validate which faith is the true faith.
Not really... for most it's the fear of eternal damnation christians are indoctrinated with from almost the moment they can walk. That was it for me, anyhow... till I grew up, got educated and decided to stop believing stupid shit people told me "or I'll burn in hell".
On a related note, I never much liked "cause I said so" as a reason for doing something. Same reason... don't care for scare tactics.
Turzovka, you are incredibly credulous.
Thanks for the anecdote from the Fatima witness. It sounds to me that he saw the results of some folks smoking seegars, and then stared at the sun until it affected his vision. It'll do that, you know.
BTW, welcome back, Salt, you old fundament.
To PZ Meyers & Friends:
Many things puzzle me about evolution. Personally, I choke on my soup over it. But allow me to bring up one quote from one of your very favorite high priests, Stephen Gould:
""Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. We believe that Huxley was right in his warning. The modern theory of evolution does not require gradual change. In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record. It is gradualism we should reject, not Darwinism."
.
Gould is not attacking evolution, but he is making an argument for punctuated equilibrium. So to review the arguments of two of the most revered high priests of evolution.
Gould & Co: A exists because X is present. There is no evidence for Y.
Dawkins & Co: A exists because Y is present. There is no evidence for X.
.
Conclusion: There is no evidence that experts agree on exist for A. Therefore A is not only yet unproven, it is very highly suspect since, some of the finest experts on the matter highly doubt the presence of the necessary evidence for it to exist. Here in the 21st century when science has made remarkable discoveries unimaginable, they still cannot identify proof of how we evolved that the experts can agree upon.
Essentially, Gould disproves Dawkins claim for evolution because he says there is no evidence for Gradual evolution. Or does Gould have no credibility? Dawkins disproves Gould's claim for evolution because he says there is no evidence for punctuated equilibrium (i.e. monster steps). Or does Dawkins have no credibility?
The most knowledgeable man on evolution in the world Stephen Gould balks at the claims of gradual evolution yet public schools and universities everywhere insist it be taught as fact. And we who challenge evolution based on the same lack of evidence as Gould's are counted as fools. How rich.
Went to YouTube, started typing "pz myers" in the search box, and the first choice it offered in the auto-complete menu was "pz myers cracker".
Lotsa people are hoping to get a sneak peek, eh?
What I mean by "expected reaction troll" is the frequent comment that PZ deserves the response he's getting because he "should have expected it". It completely ignores the fact that an irrational and unreasonable reaction does not become right simply because it is predictable. It is frequently followed with Koran Envy ("would you dare desecrate the Koran?").
I'm attempting to compile a list of the most common bullshit arguments being made to save some effort in refuting them over and over again.
@Capital Dan (136):
How wrong you are. Hopefully you are just bacon fun of these internet bacon idiots that seem to be everywhere.
"You know that funny looking red guy with a pitchfork? Just a cartoon to you of course. "
Hell no that's not just a simple cartoon, you insensitive clod. It signifies that heavenly treat - Underwood Deviled Ham.
shake your fist at God like Stalin did on his death bed - Turzkova
[citation needed]
A nice variation on the "deathbed conversion of atheist" trope - well done Turzkova! And let's admit she's outflanked us, by casting the net of her gullibility wider than anyone believed possible!
Mat Penfold re #8
I, personally have no problem with the Commander signing his post as he did. It's not a question of relevance, it's more a matter of personal taste. Let us be open to anonymous posts as well as those more formally composed.
Now, as to the body of his post, he really misses the point of PZ's actions and thus comes to incorrect conclusions, but at least he's polite.
CHRISTOCRACKERS - Desecratingly Delicious
now in 3 great flavors
Wintergreen,
Spearmint,
and Doublemint - get the most from your host
#138: This is a far more convincing recreation of medieval thinking than you'll ever get at a Renaissance faire.
Keep it up, you crazy Catholics. With every post, you're validating The God Delusion another little bit.
#146
OK... Turzovka has officially passed over from "ignorant and credulous" to completely insane. Commencing ignore mode, out of pity.
Mmmmmm. Sacrilicious.
@Turzovka #146
Do you even know what you are talking about? Jesus, my IQ dropped 20 points just reading your post. My suggestion, read an entry level evolutionary biology textbook before you comment on evolution.
Prof. Myers you are kinda being a goof.
I would think a university professor could find better uses for his time than run this immature blog and performing immature stunts.
Your 15 minutes are almost up!
You'll be able to look back fondly on all the attention you have gotten!
This is likely the highest moment of your entire life...sad really.
I pity you.
Turozka, you don't seem to understand the difference between proof and assertion.
#157
Between someone being goofy and lot of people sending death (or lesser) threaths, I'm on the side of the goofball.
CAPT,
I appreciate your reference to the Navy's Correspondence Manual and respect your opinion but that does not guide the writing of personal correspondence. Were I to imply that my opinions represented those of the United States Navy (WHICH THEY DO NOT) then I would be wrong. However, I am simply voicing my personal opinion on these matters as a citizen of this country that happens to be a military officer.
As I stated, my intent was and remains only to appeal to Dr. Myers (Professor Myers if that is what he prefers) as a fellow professional. People here are free to take me at my word on that or dismiss me. As a fellow officer, and my senior, I will hope that you give me the benefit of the doubt in that regard and I remain in your service.
Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy
Your mama's immature.
No, I apologize, I shouldn't have involved your mother. But really, what PZ does is important and his own damn business.
I'll bet you he doesn't do anything to the Koran. He doesn't have the guts to offend the "religion of peace". He knows Catholics will just spout off but the jihadis will come after him.
We'll see how much principle this hater has. I say none, just and attention needy nerd.
Turzovka #146
But allow me to bring up one quote from one of your very favorite high priests, Stephen Gould
Umm, no. Gould is highly criticized by evolutionary biologists. See:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Debate/CEP_Gould.html
Sorry to impinge on your religion (EVOLUTION) and your two Gods (NATURAL SELECTION and GIVE IT MORE TIME) But don't ask me to read a text book to find the answers, or even to find all the transitional fossils (there should be millions) because they are hesitant to put photos of them in there. Why? But the Gould quote which mocks Dawkins I do find quite entertaining. Gould doesn't buy gradual evolution, but we are forced to. Oh, the irony.
JoeBlow (158): Don't waste people's time with your pity. We're all waiting here too see some cracker desecration (I hope he pooped on it), not read pointless and cliched Warhol references.
It's funny until someone actually gets hurt.
PZ stirred up a nest of loonies, a few of them might be dangerously deranged.
It's not PZ's fault. It's not crackers. You can threaten crackers and not come to the attention of Bill the Shrill Donohue (I have) but do anything Bill can use as an excuse and he'll cash in on your growing fame. Bill would have found something else.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 23, 2008 3:36 PM
Aw, poor Fr. Childfucker is maaaad.
Get bent...
Thanks for being open with your bigotry, rb miller.
Fatwa Envy
#163: I'll take you up on that bet. Your default - post here saying that you were wrong and that your opinion of PZ was mistaken. Let's see how much principle you have, eh?
In October 5 1910 the portuguese monarchy ended and the First Republic was implanted. The first republic, remembered even today by what we call «beatada» ( your religious nutballs) as horrible jacobins, ended centuries of arbitrary and almost absolute power by the catholic church (except in the short period after the big earthquake in 1755 with marquês de Pombal).
Just to give a pale idea of the sort of power they had, our Department of Justice, overseeing judges,the equivalent to your Supreme Court and so forth, was called Ministério dos Negócios Eclesiásticos e Justiça that translates as Department of Church Affairs and Justice (notice that Justice came after Church business...)
The catholics wailed that they were being persecuted by the state because, abomination and heresy, for a first in Portugal the church didn't controll the citizens life literally from birth to death: until then there were no civil offices for registering anything, births, marriages, deaths, etc. were all registered by the church.
To make a long story short, the first Republic committed something even worst than desecrating a cracker; they were allowed by law heresies like
- civil marriage and divorce
- rights for illegitimate sons
- rights for women
- no mandatory catholic education in schools
worst of all, they were very particular about not financing (lavishly) the Church.
So, the so called miracle of Fátima was a fraud put up by the Church in an attempt to get back some of the power they had lost.
For various reasons they succeeded specially because the first Republic was short lived, and Salazar, our (very catholic) dictator, was able to put up a dictatorship that lasted almost 50 years with the enthusiastic support of the Catholic Church. Of course he pushed Fátima down every portuguese throat, and everything remotely skeptical of the "miracle" was censored (and his author invited to a «nice» stay in prison where he would repent from his sins with the catholic help PZ has been lavished with).
The thing is so obviously a fraud, put up for political reasons only, that today even catholic priests recognize that. But they always come up with something like you're right, the sun didn't defy the laws of physics, there was no miracles but it's not a fraud, it's a symbol of devotion deeply rooted in the heart of the peasantry and to try to sweep it away it is not possible without some measure of scandal and popular disturbance. Continuing that we should «respect» the simple people beliefs even when we know they are completely wrong...
Turzovka, you're so ignorant it's not enough funny. Read the link that I provided.
Maybe it is a cultural thing, but to me the tone of Jeffrey A. Stuart's posts come across as being rather arrogant, petulant, and sarcastic. The words are civil enough but I would not say he was being polite, in fact far from it. The overly formal tone he adopts comes over as insolence.
Turzovka@156,
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you had a certain originality, and now you come out with two of the silliest and most stale tricks of creationist liars.
1) There are no "high priests" of evolution. Unlike you godbots, scientists don't decide matters off act by argument from authority, but on the evidence.
2) The issue of "punctuated equilibrium" might be called a typical mid-level scientific dispute, where the fundamentals of a theory (in this case, the reality of common descent and the importance of natural selection) are not in doubt, but there is room for rational disagreement about important features of the theory (in this case, the smoothness or jerkiness of phenotypic change, and the relationship between such change and speciation). The issue has been explored both mathematically and empirically. It casts no doubt whatever on the modern theory of evolution as a whole, as Dawkins and Gould both agreed, and anyone actually familiar with the issues can readily see.
Re: #90
Another example of the "you must believe in God in order to disbelieve in Him" claim that I mentioned before.
Cynthia's post is a goldmine of religious ignorance. Note she makes no mention of the "vitriol" spewed by the Catholics and other religious types, nor of the lack of death threats by the non-religious.
Her bald eagle Indian ceremony is of a piece with all the other analogies proffered by the religio-nuts. Nowhere is it acknowledged that PZ did not go disrupt a religious ceremony, so all analogies of that form are false. They only point up the dishonesty of the writers.
As has been pointed out, she obviously hasn't tried very hard to seek out such explanations.
And Turzovka has a Starr Jones level of understanding of astronomy. Newsflash, Turz: The Catholic church now admits that Galileo and Copernicus were right.
@Turzovka re. sun miracle:
Stare at the sun long enough and you'll see it do a can-can dance. Really, do try not to be so gullible.
Wow, this is getting old...Catholic nutters taking over every thread possible to bitch about a cracker and fight a fight that they're never gonna win. Do they honestly expect any non-believer here to throw up his hands at one of their arguments and say, "Wow, nobody ever said that to us before! I'm totally convinced that you're right. Just let me go buy a rosary so I can start repenting?"
Couldn't PZ just give them a separate thread to spew their hatred and keep his other threads neat and discussion-y? If you don't argue with them, they'll go away.
To all those who take time out of their busy schedule to visit PZ's blog and express how much they "pity" him and congratulate him on his "15 minutes of fame":
Thank YOU for making it all possible.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
Turzovka - we don't have high priests (and if you mock high priests what does that say about your religion). And just because evolution studies evolve at the edges does not mean we have to keep changing the school curriculum every 10 seconds.
There could be the option of saying that due to threaths and harassment he will not doing anything, to see what reactions this brings, as an experiment, so to speak.
the analyst notices the references to ejaculation and masturbation (which do not indicate any real understanding of the terms), and the need for self-promotion whilst being unable to listen to himself. The absence of scatological uses (although that may come) indicates roughly an emotional age in the subject of perhaps 11 or 12.
Jeffrey A. Stuart,
Why are you refusing to answer the question as to whether you have contacted other parties involved in all thus ?
Mr. Penfold,
No, I have not contacted the other parties as I have come to this situation a bit late into the game. I am simply reacting to the "here and now" and have pointed out that I don't think Dr/Professor Myers' actions were befitting of his position and stature. That is an independent issue on what actions I may or may not take at this time with the other parties.
Admittedly, I am tilting against a windmill here but I fail to see why discourse of any kind in this country has to deteriorate to the point that we are all on one big Jerry Springer episode.
V/r
"There are no "high priests" of evolution. Unlike you godbots, scientists don't decide matters off act by argument from authority, but on the evidence."
Not only is not argument from authority, there is much kudos to be gained in science by overturning long accepted theories. Far from being bent on maintaining orthodoxy young scientists want to knock holes in it, and replace old ideas with newer, better ideas.
Hey atheists. How come everything, now that man is around to observe life, is so nice and tidy? How come there are virtually no vertebrates, amongst the 2000 million or more, on earth making some very noticeable steps into becoming another species? (Spare me your test tube bacteria evidence. Yawn.) How come no lizards want to fly any more? How come no fish have the desire to take a walk on the beach any more? How come no apes want to be humans anymore? Maybe 150 million years ago it was the hip thing to do, but now all these vertebrates are so comfortable in their own skin, they lack that evolutionary desire to change into another species. Isn't it so convenient for your theory that since man has been around not one single stinking vertebrate is clearly morphing into some higher advanced species? Jeez, you would think we would see a wing or even a few feathers on some reptile yearning to soar higher in life.
I am Catholic but am not insulted by your immaturity. Rather, I feel compelled to point out the obvious--that only a life devoid of meaning and things to do could concoct and implement such a childish act. If you want to slag Catholics, be my guest. For animosity and degradation are nothing but crosses to us. I am embarrassed for you, however, that your existence has now been relegated to such negative and pre-pubescent pranks. It is clear that science and the wonder of it has left you along with the wonder of life and that you now must preen, prance, and imitate a circus performer to hold the attention of your colleagues. It speaks to your status as a man of science that you have reverted to anti-science in this shameless and camera mugging farce.
You've devolved and it's truly sad to see any person do this, let alone a 'man of science'.
I will take RB Miller up on his bet as PZ has already said he has done it.
Says someone who's never been to my office...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH. Have you really looked at everything?
Btw, Obama is down 6% Ohio
Obama is down 6% in Ohio
Obama is down 6% in Ohio
Obama is down 6% in Ohio
Obama is down 6% in Ohio
Sorry to repost the same comment twice, but I am suddenly confused. I thought life was all too complex to arise by evolution? Now it is "neat and tidy"?
Would you dingbats get your story straight?
"No, I have not contacted the other parties as I have come to this situation a bit late into the game. I am simply reacting to the "here and now" and have pointed out that I don't think Dr/Professor Myers' actions were befitting of his position and stature. That is an independent issue on what actions I may or may not take at this time with the other parties."
How telling.
You arrived late and did not have the manners to learn about what was going on. I thought you were the one saying there was a lack of respect these days ? You are part of the problem, in that you think you are entitled to an opinion without being in possession of the facts. That is simply dishonest.
If you want to have more respect, then earn it. Dishonesty is not a good start, and nor is hypocrisy.
Why do you think PZ should be held to a higher standard that you hold yourself ?
Why did you have to do this? What did Catholics and Muslims ever do to you personally? Why can't you just leave us alone?
Turzovka is attempting the oldest debate trick: Change the subject. Turz is just as ignorant of evolution as of astronomy.
Maybe it is a cultural thing, but to me the tone of Jeffrey A. Stuart's posts come across as being rather arrogant, petulant, and sarcastic. The words are civil enough but I would not say he was being polite, in fact far from it. The overly formal tone he adopts comes over as insolence.
Mr. Penfold,
Communication via the Internet certainly does present it's challenges and admittedly I am taking a formal tone for a reason given the circumstances. Perhaps over a beer our discourse would be different. All I can say is the my thoughts are genuine and without malice.
V/r
Turzovka, since you're still posting, I assume you didn't read that article that I provided, as you wouldn't be done yet.
This is what I don't get. We post answers and the creationists don't read them, but continue to spout their nonsense.
Many of us here have PhDs or (like myself) are pursuing PhDs in one or another biological discipline. I've taken graduate level courses in molecular and cell biology, biochemistry, genetics, recombinant DNA techniques, and biostatistics, just to name a few. Many others have read numerous books and have thought about and studied evolution for years.
Yet creationists think they can waltz in here with their Sunday sermonette understanding of evolution and impress us with their arguments. News flash: we've heard all the arguments before, and they are utterly lacking at best, and downright absurd at worst.
Desire to fly ? you think wishes come true do you...oh yes i forgot you are religious and wish fulfillment is the main point of that.
Chavez, we don't need your pity. This is making a point. And clearly it has given the number of entries.
You are a puddle asserting that the hole you are in must have been designed for you because it fits you so well.
Buried way down here, I don't know if anyone will see this comment, but ...
Thank you, PZ, for doing this.
This is a science blog. Statements made here are not to be taken on faith, irrespective of the person making such claims. To that end, when can we expect verifiable evidence of the desecration that PZ has claimed to have carried out?
And his acolytes appear to be willing partners to his crimes.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 10:07 AM
What crimes fucktard?
@Turzovka (#165)
Sorry to impinge on your stupidity, but evolution is not a religion, religions happen not to be factual
Yeah, whatever
You're right, culture and education are bad, bad things. And books should be burned. Apart from the ones talking about magic men.
The concept of transitional fossils is flawed in the first place, but even accepting the concept no there shouldn't be millions, and there are hundreds if not thousands of "transitional" fossils.
Gould was a creator and proponent of the Punctuated equilibrium subtheory of evolution, which is still debated and is extremely interesting in its own right. But he never doubted evolution as a whole, because he saw it plain as day.
Nobody forces you do "buy gradual evolution". In fact, nobody forces you to "buy evolution" either, I've yet to see the Evolution Police come a'knocking at 3am, and I fear I'll sooner see the next instance of "Holy Inquisition" much sooner than the EvoPolice. But people will (rightly) mock you for not understanding (nor wanting to) the facts and theories of evolution.
Oh, and here's a thing about Gould: before criticizing gradualism, he understood it. Maybe you could try to draw from his example.
Another thread? This is why we should go back to Usenet.
I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week...
Yeah, because we all know that biology students worship petri dishes as Sacred Objects. :-D Please do it, I could use a good laugh. Although I don't think the janitor will be amused.
Say, "Cap'n" JoJo?
If you intend to challenge CMDR Stuart may I suggest that you start by showing you are physically equipped to do so by posting your true and correct name, as CMDR Stuart has done?
That is, unless you were commissioned in the Clown Navy, which BTW would explain a lot.
So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right?
Thousands of people are STARING AT THE SUN and suddenly start seeing things.
Oh yeah. No natural explanation for that...
Aron at #1412 (previous crackerjack thread) sez:
Imagine this scenario: You are on one side of a bulletproof sheet of glass and are constrained to watch whatever events occur on the other side. You have within easy access a trigger that will send a snub-nosed bullet into your head, guaranteeing instant death.
Someone appears on the other side of the glass and holds up a wafer which, he tells you, has been consecrated. He then holds a dagger and is about to shred the poor defenseless waferJesus in a wafer.
Do you:
1) Pull the trigger thus committing the mortal sin of suicide
OR:
2) Watch the "desecration" of the host
Or perhaps you were indulging in a little hyperbole (lie) for Jesus?
Martin
Two words: blind faith.
Preventing gays from marrying, blowing people up, letting people die rather than telling them to use condoms, refusing to allow women to have abortions, allowing paedophile priests to escape justice and given them the ability to continue to abuse to list but a few of things.
Did you managed to forget about all those ?
This is too funny. All you defenders of evolution and attacking my Gould vs Dawkins entry --- you all are quick to tell me that no one is a high priest in evolution, not one of you have come to Gould's defense. As though that makes your case. So I insist on restating the irony. Stephen Gould, highly regarded evolutionist, recently deceased, has studied evolution of his entire life and wrote countless books on it and defends it with academic aplomb. But he highly doubts the evidence for gradual evolution. He, for all intents and purposes, says it is not there. It does not exist. He is an expert and doubts it. But you evolution conspiracy of scientists who mock and discredit and doubters in the field, have it your way. You insist and demand it be taught as virtual fact that we evolved because of the evidence. It was gradual evolution your text books preach to us, not some monster leaps. It is a joke! Stephen Gould says no way it happened like that but you demand we accept it. DO YOU GET THE IRONY HERE? Hilarious.
It speaks to your status as a man of science that you have reverted to anti-science in this shameless and camera mugging farce.
I'd look up 'science' in the dictionary, were I you. Your understanding of the word seems...flawed.
Also, can we get agreement from the Catholics here - is desecrating the host a farcical pre-teen prank or a mortal sin worse than murder, rape and making books out of the skin of a relative? There seems to be a schism of opinion here.
The occasional Sastra and Sastra-like posts are one of the reasons I spend so much time reading through these silly blogs.
Well Done.
Very respectively,
Dr. Benjamin Franklin
Grand High Exhalted Mystic Leader
Villians, Thieves and Scoundrels Union
Local 12
BTW, PZ ... You COULD make an interesting little book about all this.
Start with the initial offer, and then follow with the comments pro and con and the mainstream fallout. Include your own commentary in a running narrative.
Personally, I don't really care if he actually did it. The threat was enough to expose the intolerance of those who think that because they hold something sacred, so should everyone else.
Turdovka:
Desire has nothing to do with it. The fact that you think bacteria can desire anything is just further evidence that you should be looking into seeing a psychiatrist.
If "evolutionary desire" was an option, your parents probably wouldn't have chosen to give birth to such an idiot.
How come everything, now that man is around to observe life, is so nice and tidy?
Dude hasn't seen my basement lately.
How come no fish have the desire to take a walk on the beach any more?
They'd rather walk on the street: http://www.local6.com/news/16897468/detail.html
HEy masklinn (#200), if nobody is forcing us to buy gradual evolution as you say, and nobody is really pushing for punctuated equilibirium or for monster leap theories, then how can you be so sure we evolved? You apparently have no evidence for how it happened. And it sure as hell is not happening now in the higher animal kingdom. Everyone likes the skin they were born in.
@Turzovka #183
Ugh...every time I read your post I get a little dumber. Seriously, the recorded human history is 3000 years at the most, vs. the 3.6 billion years that life has evolved through. Can you even conceive how insignificantly small your life experience is? It is less than 0.000001 % of the length of life on Earth. If I take a glass of water from the sea and see no sharks in that glass, should I conclude that there are no sharks? I wouldn't, but you probably would.
@ 183 :
(not that there is any point,but hey,its a quiet night at work !)
//Hey atheists. How come everything, now that man is around to observe life, is so nice and tidy?//
You know moron,the guys down there in Darfur,or Iraq, might disagree with you !
Say, Laughing Idjit?
JoJo already did. Pay more attention next time.
Aren't Salt and Jack the same person?
Turzovka: You take stupidity to another level.
Also, can we get agreement from the Catholics here - is desecrating the host a farcical pre-teen prank or a mortal sin worse than murder, rape and making books out of the skin of a relative? There seems to be a schism of opinion here.
Good point. Why can't you agree among yourselves and keep your stories straight? Aren't you supposed to have some sort of dogma?
It IS intolerance, stop saying it as if it's an insult. It's a compliment. It's intolerance for injustice, and the lack of common sense from you all, daring to try to destroy the life of a guy cuz he OH MY GOD took a cracker from your church.
You say you're nonviolent yet your force yourself upon us all.
You say you're loving yet you send death threats.
You say you've got morals and yet you shake a book that has a total lack of humanity.
What PZ did is pretty much the equivalent of the women that burned their bras back then (But on a smaller level). I don't know what the poor bra did to them but it was a message for freedom and a "you don't scare us anymore.".
It's funny. You christians took something terribly tiny and made a big deal out of it. The bright thing would've been to shrug it off.
Turzovka,
Stephen Gould, highly regarded evolutionist
And again, if you had read the article that I linked to, you wouldn't be making this absurd statement. So let me post snippets here:
Of course, there's a lot more if you would bother to read the article and learn something
Turzovka keeps highlighting her ignorance of science. Gould didn't say that gradual evolution never happened; he and Eldredge showed that, in some cases, species changed rapidly for a time, then didn't change much. He even pointed out where Darwin had anticipated such.
(I'm assuming Turz is female because of the female ending of the name.)
But the real reason Turz is barking about science, is to divert attention from her idiotic claims about Fatima and Medjugorje.
Turz is a fool who deserves no further attention.
Posted by: Turzovka
Blah, blah, blah, mindless drivel, blah, blah, stupid mindless drivel, blah, blah.
Do you plan on saying anything that sounds even close to sane or relevent?
"that only a life devoid of meaning and things to do could concoct and implement such a childish act. "
Yeah, those people sending death threats are totally horrible, huh.
Oh, you were defending them and complaining about a cracker?
Well, you're an idiot.
+++++++++
"Why did you have to do this? What did Catholics and Muslims ever do to you personally? Why can't you just leave us alone?"
You mean, aside from the death threats, stalking and spamming?
But who cares about that when a cracker hasn't been eaten! oohhhh Noess!1111!!!1!1!
All I've read here is about how crazy these catholics are and how new threads need to be created for taking too much space, but as I read, the far majority of post are from atheist. Obviously, the atheist are the the crazed ones here. I don't even think 10% of these post are written by religious people.
Hey gdlchmst,I don't find you to be very bright either, but not on my account. If there are 30 million species that have evolved over 3.6 billion years, then something had to ALWAYS be happening. How many changes does it take to grow an eye or a liver? One birth? I doubt it. Probably more than a thousand changes in all of life's systems would be my guess. So something had to be happening at all times to the entire animal kingdom, AND YET, nothing really noticeable in those 3,000 years since man has been around. HOW CONVENIENT. You would think there would be a few reptiles still with wings and feathers trying to be birds. But no, too convenient once again.
Jeffrey, you are correct, this doesn't have to like Springer online. What you will see here is that people who are reasonable are usually treated in kind (some exceptions, but that's a population thing), whereas if someone acts like a troll, they get treated like a troll.
Those things include the repetitous "I pity", "I'll pray", "you'll find out when you die", Fatwa Envy, etc.
I for one am happy to have a reasoned discussion with you.
Where this all started was in a misunderstanding at a Catholic Mass. A student intended to take a host to show it to his friend who was sitting in the pews. It is possible that that action was a breach of the ritual, but it appears that different churches allow (minorly) different practices.
Because this student didn't eat the eucharist immediately, he was assaulted. After he went to sit down, he was further assaulted when someone noticed he still hadn't eaten it but was showing it to his friend. Because he was assaulted, he put the wafer in his pocket and left.
Demands were made that this guy return the host. These escalated into death threats (!) and threats on his career. So he returned it without the apology he was hoping for. Since then, both parties seem to have gone nutsy-fig with accusations and legal complaints.
PZ picked it up with hyperbole - "You want desecration, I'll show you some desecration". He also got death threats, threats against his career, lots of Fatwa Envy, including two Korans provided with the intent that he "desecrate" them. That's the Catholic League for you.
So that is the crazy route that got to here. PZ was sort of backed into a corner - if he takes no action with the hosts people sent him, goddists will say "See, it IS real, you're afraid", etc.
See, it's kooky, all the brouhaha from an isolated incident of assault.
Ken Cope wins the Jonathan Swift Award!
#214: So is there a "evolution conspiracy of scientists who mock and discredit and doubters in the field" or is it just that no one's sticking up for a particular scientific idea? Which is it?
And how does someone not sticking up for a particular scientific idea invalidate the all the evidence supporting evolution, evidence you blatantly ignore in favour of credulous fairytales?
re: the Prof vs. Dr. labels --
At the universities I've worked at in the US, "Dr." was of course reserved for those who had earned PhDs. "Professor" could be used for ANY instructor, including those who had not quite finished their degrees yet. I taught a semester or two as an ABD visiting prof, and the students called me Professor. When I finally defended, they called me "Dr." I've seen this progression happen for other younger colleagues a few times now, and at different universities in different parts of the US.
I sincerly hope that the "suprise" is Dawkins "The god delusion".
Thereby showing that Atheists don't care about such sillyness. That would be the ultimate checkmate, in my eyes, to prove the meaninglessness of such things.
No True Scotsman
It was gradual evolution your text books preach to us, not some monster leaps. It is a joke! Stephen Gould says no way it happened like that but you demand we accept it. DO YOU GET THE IRONY HERE? Hilarious.
What is ironic, is the clear fact, that you really think you're making some kind of case, while merely backlighting your own near bottomless ignorance. Your primary problem, at least in the context of this site, is that people here know stuff.
There is something deeply pitiful about the level of credulity, self deception and wilful stupidity on exhibition by you Turdovka. You have my heartfelt sympathy. Thats atheist code for "I'll pray for you", and we all know what thats code for:-)
Turzovka #226
How many changes does it take to grow an eye or a liver? One birth? I doubt it. Probably more than a thousand changes in all of life's systems would be my guess.
Indeed, that is pure guesswork. If you would bother to do some reading, you might be able to formulate a more accurate estimate. In order to make a single protein more functional in E. coli, it took some 30,000 generations (Cf. the work of Richard Lenski). So to acquire all of the hundreds if not thousands of mutations that it would take to produce a complex organ, we can expect many millions of generations.
AND YET, nothing really noticeable in those 3,000 years since man has been around. HOW CONVENIENT.
3000 years is only 120-150 human generations! What the hell would you expect to happen? Even by your complete guesswork of 1000 generations, that would not be long enough. Yet in reality it takes many, many more generations as I just pointed out.
Cortx Vortx
You have no case against the facts of Fatima. NONE. You are no different than so many other desperates trying to hard to have God not appear anywhere. Staring into the sun, oh yes, what a great answer. Read the communist paper where the atheist journalists admit to the miracle! What about everyones soggy clothes and ground becoming bone dry in a matter of minutes as reported as well? Mass hallucination, my foot.
And google the Gould quote for yourself -- then try to dance around that one as well.
You want more miracles from God to contemplate? Or would you rather ignore all that so you can remain bold and sure of your atheism? I am not angry, I am moved to pity.
"You would think there would be a few reptiles still with wings and feathers trying to be birds."
YOU might think that. No one with any understanding of the subject would.
Mr. Stuart,
Your status as a military officer is meaningless in this discussion. Until this thread, I've mentioned my prior naval rank once in this blog. That was in the thread where a disabled veteran is explaining how the Army was screwing him over (which it is). There, me being a retired senior officer is relevant. Here, where the discussion is primarily about Catholicism vs atheism, so what you or I did in the Navy adds nothing. If we were discussing ASW the fact that I was a submariner would be germane. Here it's as meaningless as the fact that I'm right-handed.
No, Mr. Stuart, the point that you're a senior naval officer is inconsequential. You notice that I refer to you as Mr. Stuart rather than Commander Stuart. I'm not being impolite or belittling your rank. I both respect and appreciate the effort involved in becoming a commander. On the other hand, I do not appreciate you throwing that rank around in an attempt to garner unwarranted authority.
Besides, there's the further point that you, I and only a very few others here have any real idea what a commander is or does. Dr. Myers is not and never has been in the military and I doubt he really knows the difference between your rank and, say, a Senior Chief. Actually, you have it easier than me. I remember, when I was on active duty, having to explain to an Air Force major that I wasn't one rank junior to him but rather two ranks senior. (If you're ever at a joint command, wear khakis as often as possible.)
Being a CDR, USN is as professional as being a lawyer or an accountant. You don't see other posters here putting "Joe Blow, Dentist" as their signature. Unless the discussion is on teeth, what Dr. Blow does for a living is immaterial. Similarly, my intimate knowledge of S6G nuclear reactors or characteristics of MK48 ADCAP torpedoes doesn't mean a thing when discussing whether Dr. Myers is justified in desecrating a communion wafer.
In short, Mr. Stuart, and please excuse my bluntness, nobody is impressed by what you do for a living.
#28 "And also do not presume we are all Americans. If you mean the US Navy say so. Else some will think you are in the French Navy, some in the Royal Navy, Royal Australian Navy or Royal New Zealand Navy."
I think the Royal New Zealand Navy went on holiday last week. He'll be back in his canoe shortly.
@Turzovka #214
Ugh, way to fail hard
First of all, I never said "nobody is really pushing for punctuated equilibrium", I merely hinted that it (still) wasn't the "main" theory for the part of evolution it covers.
Second, this is an argument about how a given part of evolution works (go species change very gradually or by quite sudden "evolutionary leaps" separated by periods when the specie stays very stable), not whether it works.
Third, I think evolution is the way things work because I tried looking at the resources, tried making sense of it, checked the alternatives and found the theory of evolution was the one that matched the facts and realities best. And frankly, each new discovery, genetic, fossil or other, only validates that.
Are you kidding?
First, it's not about "likes" or "dislikes", evolution isn't a conscious process in any way, shape or form. Second, evolution in the higher animal kingdom takes a lot of time. Think hundred thousands of years. Timescales against which the time-span of human life is pitiful. You're not going to see new mammals in your backyard tomorrow, but maybe your descendants will see them in 10000 years (if we're still here, that is). I understand that you don't have the intellectual tools to grasp that, but seriously you should think about getting some education, you're making an ass of yourself.
Oh boy, there is a facebook group now for this...
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=538840904#/group.php?gid=2467229…
If there are 30 million species that have evolved over 3.6 billion years, then something had to ALWAYS be happening.
Something is always happening, reality is thankfully immune to your ignorance. Go away. Read. Repeat as needed.
@turzovka #235
Ah I get it now, you don't understand what the word fact means. Makes your previous posts much clearer. Thanks for the heads up.
Ken Cope wins the Jonathan Swift Award!
Joy! I hope I get a fat juicy baby. As Judith Giuliani says, they're crunchy and salty!
@Turzovka #226
You owe me a new computer. My laptop's CPU just fried because it couldn't handle you inanity. But for someone who fatuously refuses to read a textbook on evolution, you sure seem to have a mighty high opinion of your understanding of it. Let me guess, still fighting for that GED?
I flew to New Delhi and the majority of people living there were INDIAN! I expressed my outrage and they assured me that the next time I came there would be more people just like me.
Do Myers and the Catholic Haters understand that Catholicism is one of the few religions that says it is possible for evolution to be true and that God and evolution are not mutually exclusive.
Now before you get carried away,,,,POSSIBLE....is the key word.
Obama down 6% in Ohio
Obama down 6% in Ohio
Obama down 6% in Ohio
Obama down 6% in Ohio
I wish to take this a step further. I am calling on PZ to provide verifiable evidence of his claim to have desecrated a communion host (perhaps via an online video). PZ's claim, to be completely fact-based rather than faith-based (i.e., by which I mean based on something that PZ asserts), should incorporate chain-of-evidence proof to convince the viewer that the communion host in question was obtained after its consecration in a Catholic service, as opposed to its being an unconsecrated host. Evidence please!
It appears that any comment will likely get lost amongst the tidal wave of opinions, but, I hope that there might be a few that read of my experience in the links provided below.
10 years ago I would have likely found the cracker jokes and the Catholic bashing humorous. As a cradle Catholic who had waded, then swam, and eventually surfed into a secular lifestyle the teachings of the Church seemed foolish and backwards thinking.
However, my perceptions changed. I didn't choose for them to be changed nor was I seeking for them to be changed.
My experiences occurred in 3 parts. Each are short in length and written with an objective mindsight.
http://personalrevelation.wordpress.com/about-the-pages/awakening-the-s…
http://personalrevelation.wordpress.com/about-the-pages/you-are-purifie…
http://personalrevelation.wordpress.com/about-the-pages/abba/
Turzovka @ # 207: Stephen Gould... has studied evolution of his entire life and wrote countless books on it...
The tragedy of modern innumeracy deserves more attention.
Turzovka, Gould's books on evolution can indeed be counted. Here's a hint: take off your shoes.
Maybe next year we can have a syntax lesson.
There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for another...
Really? It seems to me that PZ is willing to do more than lay down his life. He is apparantly risking his eternal soul to prove to you all what a bunch of hocum these beliefs are. PZ is more decent than Jesus in that way isn't he? And btw is it really a big deal that Jesus died when he knew he could come back from the dead? I think you all know that the answer to that question is a problem for your entire belief system which is why you all tend to focus on the torture part of the story(See "The Passion of the Christ" for example).
I have concluded that evolutionists and atheists are some kind of friendly cabal. They are reluctant to discuss the more difficult questions or problems with their religion (evolution) and they are without answers for the thousands of miracles provided by God. They resort to silly jokes and whatever ad hominen that comes into their minds. Or they ask inane questions like, "Why doesn't God cure cancer instead making the sun dance?" Shall we discuss statues of Mary and Jesus that weep tears of blood, even those video taped, and those ct scanned by science or medical experts. Those that have no natural explanation. Or should we just mock me instead and say the nuns are playing a trick on everyone? I like those kinds of scientific answers.
My point: Mock me and mine all you want but do not give yourselves ANY credit for intellectual honesty. I see nothing but diversions, red herrings and desperation. Sorry for your troubles.
Posted by: Laughin_Guy | July 24, 2008 11:47 AM
Shall I point out the irony of your statement?
Meh, I need to remember to never argue with the insane...
Good point Trexler. Anyone who would take PZ's word for any of this without evidence is relying on faith in his testimony. Based on PZ's philosophy, that makes them stupid. Birds of a feather...
Must..resist..temptation..to..join..Facebook..group.
OOPSIES.
I address Turzovka's statements with links, quotes, references to research, and thoughtful explanations, and s/he continues to ignore me, and continues to spout nonsense at the crowd.
I'm done.
Craig, you're on track to beat yesterday's record:
58 posts over 7 hours, averaging 1 post every 7 minutes 21 seconds
(MAJeff is not far behind at 1 post every 9 minutes 43 seconds, for 6.5 hours)
Just out of interest (and a shade of masochistic tendencies, I'll admit), exactly what will it prove if he can't provide evidence to your satisfaction?
@Turzovka:
Man, you are an idiot of VenomFangX caliber. All those neurons killed, all that critical thought suppressed, all those canards compressed inside your cranium as some sort of ultra-dense spam of idiocy... you are up there, with the big ones, like Kenny or Gene Ray. You can be proud of your accomplishment: stand proudly, basking in the universal recognition of your unfathomable stupidity.
Enough of ad-hominem. Now, regarding your "arguments" - THAT's why we need a FAQ. All of them have been refuted many, many times in this blog. You are not as original as you seem to believe you are. And your current attempt to mount a Gish Gallop is pitiful. Just go and hide under your stone, and free this webserver from your inanity.
turzovka
«You have no case against the facts of Fatima. NONE.»
You know nothing about Fátima. Fátima is the shame of all portuguese with one functional neuron. Fátima is a complete fraud. Fátima was all about power. As simple as that. The portuguese church was trying to regain the power lost with democracy, that, besides all the other blasfemies, allowed freedom of religion.
It is a pity the book is not translated in any other language but there is a very conclusive book by a portuguese catholic priest called «Fátima nunca mais» (Fátima never more) explaining that and explaining also that Fátima is not a tenet of the catholic faith.
Jeffrey, you are correct, this doesn't have to like Springer online. What you will see here is that people who are reasonable are usually treated in kind (some exceptions, but that's a population thing), whereas if someone acts like a troll, they get treated like a troll.
Those things include the repetitous "I pity", "I'll pray", "you'll find out when you die", Fatwa Envy, etc.
I for one am happy to have a reasoned discussion with you.
Likewise, sir.
Even if I do choose to pray for someone (which I do), I do agree the "I pity", "I'll pray", "you'll find out when you die" sort of lines to be condescending and would suggest to my fellow Christians to instead just show charity towards others no matter who they might be and simply pray for them without making a big production about it. In other words, just simply do it without saying anything.
I am certainly open to the real possibility that the event that started this was handled incorrectly. We are human and often make mistakes. Sometimes big mistakes. I like to assume that people aren't usually doing things to be offensive and that very well could have been the case with the student in question. Perhaps this all could have been avoided with some more charity from the start by those who approached him. At this point though we well never know.
But I do think that calmer heads should prevail and it's time for some "heroes" on both sides to find the high road.
V/r
Well he DID say he would provide evidence, and a special treat too! But you know, The Batsignal shined. Which is way more important than your silly cracker.
See, that's the proof he has better things to do. There's, on a short version of a priority list for a normal person: life, your kid, then batman, and the silly cracker.
...I wanna see....
My LAST POST
MYERS IS A COWARD HATER.
He will not desecrate the Koran because he knows they will come after him and Catholics will just spout off.
Global Warming is pseudo science unsupported and indeed refutable by science data...The CO2 levels have been exploding the last 7 years while temperatures are going down the last 7 years. FACT
Variation on "faith in your senses justifies faith in god."
Conditional acceptance on that which we can observe is not the same as unconditional acceptance on that which we cannot, regardless of whether you use the same word to describe them. In short, equivocation fallacy.
"Or should we just mock me instead and say the nuns are playing a trick on everyone? "
What? Nuns would not commit pious fraud?
You really are delusional.
Consider yourself mocked.
"Between someone being goofy and lot of people sending death (or lesser) threaths, I'm on the side of the goofball."
How about being on the side of neither.
If the good professor wants to desecrate the Koran with all the religious nuts out there and then gets a death threat...well, um...duh!
"No, I apologize, I shouldn't have involved your mother. But really, what PZ does is important and his own damn business."
Important? LOL.
The fact that the only way you can defend the nutty professor is to insult my mother means your mother didn't do such a good job raising you.
If he fails to substaniate his claim then it is false.
Quite simple actually. PZ deifies the "scientific method" and demands proofs yet fails to abide by his own directives.
Hypocrite and Liar are the proper words to describe such a person... or you could all him a Democrat
ah SWEET!!! That's all, folks! He's done! Let's go get a beer!
...Oh wait, there's more. Fuck.
He did say he desecrated the Koran, didn't he? Did you read anything? I can't wait to see that one!
Global warming um... Don't care and that's not related to the topic. I don't care about global warming things but I don't like stinky smog.
Maybe there is a god.....
Ale #258
Now, regarding your "arguments" - THAT's why we need a FAQ.
That's why there is a FAQ:
An Index of Creationist Claims
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
From now on, just cite the relevant section
Fatima was not a bloody miracle. It was most likely a solar event endowed with supernatural meaning by a credulous crowd of believers.
Exorcisms represent nothing but the horrendous abuse of mentally ill persons. The Virginia Tech shooter, for instance, was "exorcised" rather than treated for his obvious illness. That was tragically stupid and ineffective.
All the various claims about saints, crying statues, images in windows and such should impress NO ONE.
I challenge any believer to make an amputee grow back a leg. That shouldn't be hard. The New Testament frequently asserts the efficacy of Christian prayer. Well, do it. Convince us. Otherwise, I'm not impressed.
Ale: A nice "scholarly" retort. IOW, no real answer as expected, just anger. I just happen to believe 70,000 witnesses. It is usually enough to convict. I just happen to believe nuns are not in the business of installing gadgets inside of woodent statues of Mary to make it look like she is crying tears of blood. I just happen to believe that if Gould studied evolution for 50 years and sees no clear evidence for gradual evolution then I should not be required to accept it either. I just happen to believe that if there is not one stinking reptile growing feathers or a wing amongst the 100 million that have been around since man is here, then maybe that is a bit odd to claim that is where all the birds came from.
From the Proslogium by Anselm of Canterbury
Therefore, Lord, who grant understanding to faith, grant me that, in so far as you know it beneficial, I understand that you are as we believe and you are that which we believe. Now we believe that you are something than which nothing greater can be imagined.
Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not? But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying - something than which nothing greater can be imagined - understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding and another to understand that a thing is.
For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his undertanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is.
Therefore even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because when he hears this he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding.
And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater. Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality.
Moses @#50
Well said!
It seems to me like most of these people are missing the point entirely and moving right on to, "WAAAAH YOU HURT ME."
Since we are firing around quotes, here is one for you to chew on Turzovka. Don't worry, I'll make sure the quote is supplied in context, with links for you to review it yourself.
In an October 22, 1996, address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II updated the Church's position to accept evolution of the human body:
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."[9]
In the same address, Pope John Paul II rejected any theory of evolution that provides a materialistic explanation for the human soul:
"Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Po…
It appears you've been hanging out with the wrong crowd, and picked up a nasty social disease. Those protestants! You'd think having rejected the mumbo jumbo of cannibal crackers, they'd have at least as much sense as a Pope.
So do tell. Why are you in disagreement with a major church man, a previous pontiff no less, on this issue? Do you consider yourself greater than on of Gods Bishop?
Well? Who is wrong, you or the old Pope?
To all the foaming, hypocritical maniacs Catholics posting on these threads, I have only this to say: the Pope smells of wee, Jesus was a nut and if you think this is immature you really ought to think a bit harder about your own behaviour on this whole issue. Because by crackey, it takes a mental condition way, way more pitiful than mere immaturity to honestly believe the rank idiocy you're defending so furiously here. There's nothing a credulous fool hates more than having his foolish credulity held up plainly in the spotlight of open ridicule, is there, you transparently overcompensating nutjobs?
PZ hates cowards? Who knew?
One only has to look at Picknell's blog to know what kind of person he is.
Anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church does not discriminate against gays because it does not hate them, only homosexual activities is deranged. And anyone who thinks being celibate is an option for most people, be they gay or straight is even more deranged. Why should gay people not have sex simply because it upsets Catholics ?
Ignoring for the moment the appalling ignorance of the whole "want to" syntax, let's address T's factual claims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIYAYuuv2qQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10ilc_CEW2k
Fucking dumbshit ignorant idiot.
My LAST POST (liar)
MYERS IS A COWARD HATER. (true, he hates cowards)
He will not desecrate the Koran because he knows they will come after him and Catholics will just spout off. (you don't know him vewy well do you, heh heh heh heh.)
Global Warming is pseudo science unsupported and indeed refutable by science data...The CO2 levels have been exploding the last 7 years while temperatures are going down the last 7 years. FACT (no, opinion)
Posted by: RB Miller | July 24, 2008 12:22 PM
Bye bye troll.
I just happen to believe 70,000 witnesses. - turzovka
All gave independent signed statements, without any possibility they had discussed the matter between themselves, did they?
Thanks, but we don't need the Catholic Church's permission to understand the nature of reality anymore. Your apology to Galileo came 350 years too late for anyone not lobotomisedbaptised to give a shit what the church things, so forgive us for not falling prostrate at your benevolent magnanimosity.
Um, no. Not proving something true isn't the same as proving it false. The believers use the very same argument when countering atheists lack of belief in god. Irony abounds. There's words for that...
Ah, there they are.
I echo Hank Fox's words. Thank you, Dr. Myers.
May the FSM touch you with his noodly appendage.
Because you're an ignoramus who has never heard of a penguin, a parasitic wasp, an appendix, or a DDT-resistant mosquito.
Wow! I'm so sorry - I just found out that my spoiler link from the other thread is whacked. Here is the link I was trying to post ...
http://catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13329
No action to be taken against PZ.
Annie Nonny Mouse@272
Wow! None of us here have ever come across the ontological argument before! Expect mass conversions!
@271 Hey Turzovka your Pope believes in evolution you idiot.
"According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.[10]"
I am in total agreement with you about this. I also think Bill Donohue was seeking his own aggrandizement when he press released about this, but then that's his job.
I am leaving this thread. I am terribly tired of arguing about what's sacred or not, and the vast number of is-there-or-not-a-god arguments have been beat beyond death. I will be interested in seeing what PZ did, but these 1000+ post threads are tedious, and I'll save my arguments for another topic.
PS Just for shi*s and grins: I used to work in NAVAIR, buying airplanes and gizmos for USN. I saw a great drawing there. In the distance is a CV, with crew flocking to the deck edge and leaping off, en masse. In the foreground are two USAF F-4s on final approach, in formation. Cheers
I am a loon, please contact a mental health professional.
/screed
#271--
No astronomer anywhere else in the world reported any usual solar activity. The sun definitely didn't fly towards earth. This is simply not a valid claim.
You're snatching at anything to confirm your pre-existing views while ignoring the countless miraculous claims of other religions.
Use your astonishing prayer power under controlled conditions to levitate a car or grow back a limb, then I'll be impressed. Otherwise, miracles are nothing but unsubstantiated untestable rumors.
I think that a lot of posters on this forum are being taken for suckers. Why are so many of you willing to believe PZ's claim of having desecrated a verifiably-consecrated Catholic communion host without any evidence to support the claim? Are you accepting PZ's assertion on faith and faith alone?
PZ, it's time to put up or shut up. Evidence please!
Turzovka said:
If you're going to say that, you might as well say:
Complete nonsense.
Dear Athiests (sic),
Why do you feel the need to be smart-alecky when I and my fellow righteous believers come to this blog and imply you face eternal damnation for not respecting our belief in the eucharist being the holiest of holys? Why must you use your logic and facts when we bombard you with nonsense-laced straw man arguments and half-truths? We prefer our logic to be tortured first, thank you. How DARE you defend yourself when WE attack you! You are all social Asperger Syndrome People. NO Priest sexually abused any children more times than SECULAR TEACHERS. YOU GODDAMN FUCKERS ARE VULGAR AND PROFANE and OFFENSIVE! WE HOPE TO INCITE OTHER RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS TO SMITE YOU SINCE DOING SO OURSELVES MIGHT LEAD TO IMPRISONMENT AND CULPABILITY, YOU GODLESS HEATHEN PAGAN INFIDEL BASTARDS! I HOPE YOU ALL ROT IN HELL!!!!!!!
Respectfully, A Concerned Catholic
ps. I'll pray for you all. God is love.
Please gays go have all the sex you want.
Darwinist Award winners lol.
Trexler,
Perhaps we don't seek evidence for his claim because we don't give a rat's ass and don't consider the information important to our daily lives?
Also, are you seriously equating the ordinary claim of desecrating a cracker to the crazy-ass miraculous claims of Christianity?
"Posted by: Jeffrey A. Stuart | July 24, 2008 9:45 AM"
Bigot?
Eating a hamburger is bigotry to some people, because to some people the cow is sacred.
Meanwhile, human beings are being put in harm's way. A young man was kicked out of college because he pocketed a cracker instead of eating it.
I think that things are different nowadays because people are tired of people who don't know what has actually happened in a given situation.
G'job.
Nick Gotts @ #286
Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I shall indeed--maybe not now, maybe not even in years, but someday.
The first media response:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-eu…
And what is best, you can go there and comment on it. So go there and add a comment...
I don't think the gay contributors to this discussion need your permission.
Ummm... You go from fatwa envy to climate change denial in the same disjointed utterance.
That sort of thing really proves that you care little to nothing about any of this, and you are simply here hoping someone will pay attention to you by acting like a childish little troll.
You're kind of a loser, aren't you? I mean, really. It's sad that you are so lonely and desperate for attention that you don't care how stupid the things you squawk are so long as someone, anyone, pays attention to poor, little RB Miller.
Perhaps you should go color or play with your blocks or something, RB.
The Catholic Church is growing in the US and elsewhere. Even Europe is seeing modest signs of growth. Secular Europe is in such terrible shape that people don't even breed anymore. Atheism with its lack of hope or joy kills even the desire to survive. So sorry folks, we are winning on all fronts. Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict are winning the hearts and minds of the young. Remember the millions of people, many young, who came to Pope John Paul's funeral? You have nothing to say and nothing to offer. Orwell put the vision of atheism best, "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever." That is not attractive to most people.
This is from an article on WYD which Dr. Myers hates:
smh.com.au
"For those who had been to previous World Youth Days in Rome, Manila, Toronto and Cologne, the unqualified success of Sydney's turn was no surprise. The joy and sweetness of thousands of young Catholic pilgrims who flooded into the city, in the words of Cardinal George Pell, simply "overwhelmed" the rancid negativity of sections of our sex-fixated media, and those aggressive secularists who regard religion as an irrational threat to their way of living.
Catholic or not, most people want love and goodness in their lives and the contrast between the radiant faces of the pilgrims and the strained masks of their most strident condom-waving detractors was striking. Beauty was not just in the eye of the beholder."
I think I have said what needs to be said. For those who say they adhere to reason you have been pretty pathetic. I have searched in vain for an intellectual argument from you. Even your profanity hasn't been that inventive. Any Marine DI could best you. Most of what I have read is the typical shrill chant of "you are dumb...@#$%...we hate you...@#$%...#$%@..." Not very impressive. But with "teachers" like PZ I guess it is what we must expect. He has brought disrepute on his university, his profession, and his family. He is a very sad little man.
Pope Benedict said, "Life is a search for the true, the good and the beautiful. It is to this end we make our choices." Contrast that to your words and actions. Do you really honestly believe that your hate, ugliness, and bigotry will triumph over love? Pax
Nick Gotts @ #286
Thank you for confirming my suspicion. I shall indeed--maybe not now, maybe not even in years, but someday.
HAHAHA.PICKNELL.
ONE WORD. NIXON.
LOSER.
Since no-one else has responded to this:
"However, I don't take great pains to go to a Native American pow-wow and pounce on any fallen eagle feather to crush it into the dirt and chop it up into tiny pieces just to show those ignorant primitives that my belief is superior to theirs."
Cynthia-
If you have been following the comment sections of these blog posts at all, you would see that this argument is pointless. It isn't about a "superior belief", it's about a kid getting death threats and suspension from school for choosing not to participate in a religious act. It's about people threatening to kill other people over a stupid piece of bread. The point is to say it's not okay for people to behave that way. It's not like PZ just rushed in and destroyed a eucharist for fun/to piss people off for no good reason. In other words; they asked for it. Native Americans do not go around proselytizing and threatening to kill people for "blasphemy".
The first media response:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-eu…
And what is best, you can go there and comment on it. So go there and add a comment...
You poor, pathetic little man.
Let's do a science experiment.
Proposition to test:
Matthew 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."
That which is to be measured against:
PZ has displayed arrogance, anger, intolernace, bigotry, and vileness towards Catholics. He very publicly asked for the Body & Blood of the Son of God to be given into his hand so he could desecrate and destroy it. HE now claims to have done so.
Therefore if Matthew 7:2 is valid, then: The flesh and blood of PZ's son will be betrayed or taken through deception and given over to one who irrationally holds PZ in utter contempt. His flesh will be desecrated and disposed of in a fashion similar to PZ's antics.
That's the science of justice.
I conditionally accept his word for three reasons: a) the claim is not all that extraordinary, b) it's not terribly important to me whether I am correct about it, and c) it doesn't matter whether or not he really did it, the threat was enough to make the point. Additionally, I will freely admit I was incorrect if it turns out he didn't.
Equivocation fallacy. Conditional acceptance of that which we can observe is not the same as unconditional acceptance of that which we cannot, regardless that you use the same word to describe them.
You still haven't answered my question: what will it prove if it turns out he didn't really do it?
Two wrongs do not make a right. Your theft is unjustified, Mr. Myers, and you do nothing but make your own 'side' look poor and attention-starved. Shame on you.
I'm betting he fed it to his fish!
Look at all the bitter little atheist!! led by the bitter professor at a fourth tier college
What theft has PZ committed ? What evidence do you have that PZ has in fact committed a theft ?
Trexler wrote:
Oh, wait -- if the Catholics ask for evidence that the cracker was abused won't they be tempting PZ to abuse a cracker he might not abuse otherwise?
Maybe they should offer PZ money to return the cracker if that's what they care about.
"For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't none will suffice." Unknown
Secular Europe is in such terrible shape that people don't even breed anymore. Atheism with its lack of hope or joy kills even the desire to survive.
Poland is 90% Catholic. It has negative population growth (CIA World Factbook, 2008).
Content J, you're doing it wrong.
You still have no grasp of what is true.
Number of supporters does not equal truth.
Number of charities does not equal truth.
Number of 'nice' people does not equal truth.
Number of claims of legal action does not equal truth.
You claim to know god without proof. You claim a cracker is Jesus without proof. You claim any cracker pocketer will go to jail without relevant evidence. Not to mention it hasn't and won't happen.
This is winning to you J? As I told you before, in that case, best of luck to you.
@ 301 :
//Pope Benedict said, "Life is a search for the true, the good and the beautiful.//
In altarboys' butts.
Truebob advised: "Really, CDR, if you are still serving, it is inappropriate to put your rank and service on personal opinion pieces. It implies that you are representing the USN, which you are not."
Now that is funny!
Considering that without his connection to the UofM, PZ would be nothing more than another kook spouting hatred on the internet; and you members of PZ's flying monkey squadron know it.
That's why you take such exception to CDR Stuart's entirely appropriate use of his rank.
CDR Stuart has comported himself with the decorum one would naturally expect of a senior officer in the US Navy, where as "Cap'n" JoJo's enthusiastic demeaning of a supposed "fellow" officer's rank casts serious doubt as to the veracity of his claim to a commission of any sort.
Oddly enough, I'm sure that Dr. Meyers advertised connection with the UofM will be at the very heart of the effort that is surely underway to deny him the opportunity to continue to use his title in his bid to make the university the laughing stock of the country.
In other words, you have to believe to believe. Nice. Completely useless, but comforting none the less *sigh*.
PS Just for shi*s and grins: I used to work in NAVAIR, buying airplanes and gizmos for USN. I saw a great drawing there. In the distance is a CV, with crew flocking to the deck edge and leaping off, en masse. In the foreground are two USAF F-4s on final approach, in formation. Cheers
I'm sure the zoomies waved off when they realized there was no golf course. :)
Cheers to you as well.
@266
Another tragic failure to distinguish metaphysics from epistemology.
#301--
"So sorry folks, we are winning on all fronts."
Please. You sound like Baghdad Bob. Secularism is in the ascendancy all over Europe. Even self-identifying Catholics are mostly nominally Catholic.
Oh yes, what about the truth front? I'll happily concede we atheists are in the minority worldwide, but what the hell does that have to do with which side is right?
"Atheism with its lack of hope or joy kills even the desire to survive."
That's idiotic. Atheism isn't a philosophy, it's a state of disbelief. There's nothing to prevent an atheist from leading a content life.
The best life is one in which we delude ourselves with ancient legends and breed like rabbits? Pathetic. No thanks.
I want to pose a challenge to you. If you were not raised in any faithful environment, and approached the world through objective lens (as though from space), how on earth would you arrive at the conclusion that everything we know about the universe is best explained by the Roman Catholic perspective?
You wouldn't. You'd classify it as another human mythical tradition.
Laughin_Guy #202
I'm supposed to take a challenge to give my real name seriously when it's given by someone called Laughin_Guy?
Like most people posting on the internet, I use a pseudonym. I admit JoJo Smuckitelli is not my real name. JoJo Smuckitelli is a bit of Navy tradition, being a generic name like John Doe or Joe Sixpack. If necessary, I would give my real name out, preferably privately. But the request to do so should have a reasonable reason for me to reveal myself and it should be asked politely.
BTW, the proper abbreviation for a U.S. Navy commander is CDR. Be thankful that Stuart and I weren't enlisted. I doubt you'd be able to figure out what an HT1(SW/DV) or an STSCS(SS) are.
St @ # 82: Here's a few suggested miracles: ...The Pope gains the ability to fly.
It's already on record: read Robert Silverberg's "Good News from the Vatican".
Some nit-picking secularists may claim this is (science) fiction, but such trivial distinctions seem to have been left behind ~20 centuries ago by many of the disputants recently arrived here.
A tangenital question, seeing as how there are so many fine, upstanding Christians here:
According to the bible, the blood of Jesus healed people. What would have happened if, say, he'd shot a big wad of his semen right in somebody's face? I mean like fresh from his hard, throbbing dick, not some semen he'd saved up for later use. Would they have been extra-super-duper healed? Would they have turned into some new creature completely?
Also, if he threw his shit at you, would it kill you or only heal you half-way or something?
@266
Another tragic failure to distinguish metaphysics from epistemology.
Jack Picknell@307
My my, you are, a nasty piece of work and no mistake. Making implicit threats against a child is plumbing depths hitherto unreached in this matter.
Obama down 6% in Ohio
Posted by: RB Miller | July 24, 2008 12:11 PM
Obama up 8% in Ohio Public Policy Polling 7/23
Depends on the poll troll. Average across all polls shows Ohio is a toss up.
http://frontloading.blogspot.com/2008/07/electoral-college-map-72308.ht…
Go troll somewhere else like Freep where you will find like-minded idiots.
Posted by: Concerned Catholic | July 24, 2008 12:38 PM
Nicely done!
Posted by: Bloody Tyrant | July 24, 2008 12:39 PM
Not very well done, try HARDER.
turzovka at 271,
Yes, you just happen too believe all these things. But when several of us asked why you don't believe all the other religion's crazy miracles and holy men, and special books and etc. you couldn't give an answer.
Thousands of Christians see something they believe is a miracle, you believe them. Thousands of Muslims see something they believe is a miracle, you don't.
Your reasoning skills are so stunted that it's alarming. Please be aware that you have been heavily brain-washed and that you need real professional help. I'm serious. Mental illness is a sickness that often can be treated.
Secular Europe is in such terrible shape that people don't even breed anymore. Atheism with its lack of hope or joy kills even the desire to survive.
The CIA factbook also notes that
France has a growth rate of 0.5% and the UK of 0.2%, both are notoriously secular. Which "Europe" did you have in mind?
. . . and still no evidence that Webster Cook ever got any alleged "death threats". Check the Florida papers and the a.p. reports on this story. The worst was a nun quietly asking him to return the host as he left the church. his fellow students even think he's a dumbass for his actions (note his impeachment as a member of the student senate).
so, if the underlying premise is false (i.e., 'P.Z' throws tantrum defending everyone's right to steal hosts from churches and not get death threats) then . . . what was this all about besides p.z.'s need for attention? to be an atheist badass, kicking butt and taking names?
as an atheist, I feel this is insulting to us all. humorous that p.z. keeps saying, okay, "I am waaaayyy too busy for this" and "this is my last thread"....and then he keeps posting, opening new threads and upping the outrage factor to ensure he keeps getting his chorus of sychophants to laud him. like a chubby Howard Stern or something.
I just can not spend so much time reading so much crap to get to the end to see if I want to contribute to the discussion I read to slow and besides it is hard to get the smell out of the computer.
It is plain to see by now that established religion and I would add the conservative mind set is mostly involved and focused around control, power and fear. It is not about "the salvation of the soul" what ever the hell the soul may be besides an abstract concept of some kind. They, the believers, are not worried about their own "immortal soul" but everyone else's salvation. So much so that they have to threaten the life of anyone who has the temerity to do or say something that they feel is a "mortal sin" ??
it has looked to me for a long time that "religion" functions on the personal level as an "us vs them" and has nothing to to with any concept of god what so ever.
to be suckered into fighting the fight on that level is to fail before you start.
it is all Bull Shit with a capital god.
mr sailor above is not who he says. I call him a fake or just some old fossil who answered before he thought it through and now does not know how to apologize and go away.
@ Jojo...
you ain't kiddin... I was an HT1 on the USS Butte... (damn near 18 years ago now...)
Nothing like cleanin' shitters on an old deisel ammunitions ship... good times, good times...
I've been thinking about this for awhile now. I originally agreed with those saying that PZ is needlessly provoking the religious, but their batshit crazy responses tell me it isn't so needless. There is nothing of symbolic value that I would make death threats over. Catholics may argue that it is not symbolic, but it certainly is. God by definition cannot be injured. If your god exists he is just plotting revenge on PZ, he'll be the same tomorrow as he was yesterday. It doesn't affect him, or any living person.
The nearest secular example I can come up with is if someone stole the original Declaration of Independence. Would any reasonable person threaten the life of the thief? I would be offended and upset if it was destroyed, but it certainly isn't worth someone's life. I would also condemn anyone who did make such threats.
Shining some sunlight on the violent and irrational is always a useful exercise. If Catholics responded with "What a jackass." and left it at that, we wouldn't have this issue, and PZ would have far fewer supporters.
In short, Mr. Stuart, and please excuse my bluntness, nobody is impressed by what you do for a living.
CAPT,
But that in a way is my point and why I initially posted. Dr. Myers, in my eyes, is a professional befitting of respect for his position and the hard work that he completed in attaining such. I simply believe his conduct done openly as a University Professor, in this case, in not befitting and would encourage him to reconsider the actions he has taken.
V/r
Turzovka @271:
I just happen to believe that if there is not one stinking reptile growing feathers or a wing amongst the 100 million that have been around since man is here, then maybe that is a bit odd to claim that is where all the birds came from.
I agree Turzkova, don't listen to all these heathen atheists. The theory of continental drift via plate tectonics is another bogus scientific theory, for the same reason you state above.
I mean, why did the continents stop moving? Sure, the scientist say the continents move maybe a few centimeters per year, but I don't see any change. And in any case, that's just MICRO-movement. If South America used to be fused with Africa, by now it would be bumping into Australia. When Columbus discovered the New World, he had to cross MILES of ocean. Yet he would need to cross nearly the same distance today... why is that???
Not to mention, in all of recorded history since man has been around, we have not seen ONE STINKING mountain form from colliding continents. You would think that somewhere, a new mountain would form! I think it's a bit odd to claim that mountains form from plate tectonics. Where are all the rising mountains??
Turkovka, you are the only one around here who REALLY understands science.
"What theft has PZ committed ? What evidence do you have that PZ has in fact committed a theft ?"
You should already know the answer to this. The Eucharist is a Catholic gift meant for Catholics. By going up to receive, the understanding is that you are practicing the Catholic faith. Taking the bread away in spite of its intended purpose (and especially for public desecration) is deceitful and is morally wrong.
Let me repeat myself when I say two wrongs do not make a right.
have some class my catholic bashers! You have every right to believe in what you want and I respect that, but please have some respect for our beliefs! No religion or man is perfect so let's respect each other since we live in a country that FREEDOM is cherished.
"Cap'n" Jojo opined: "Be thankful that Stuart and I weren't enlisted."
Judging from you comments, I am not convinced in any way that you ever served in in any capacity, "Cap'n". Looking up buzzwords on the internet is something that even the most dimwitted PZian is certainly capable of.
Professional comportment (Military bearing) is something that any naval officer spends his entire career polishing. I doubt that someone who attained the rank of Captain could dispense with the last vestiges so thoroughly as you have, "Cap'n".
CDR Stuart has also demonstrated the sort of courage (that you so woefully lack, JoJo) one would expect of a naval officeer by the simple act of placing his name with his words.
Submitted, with all due respect, of course.
this thread has proven that scientology is not so wacky after all. From books made of skin to suns zooming around while rest of the world looked elsewhere to picknells proposition to
which makes the undertaker/milkman stories seem rather sane after all.
[i]This is a science blog. Statements made here are not to be taken on faith, irrespective of the person making such claims. To that end, when can we expect verifiable evidence of the desecration that PZ has claimed to have carried out?[/i]
Of course there won't be any independently verifiable evidence presented that a conscrated host was involved if anything was done. How could there be? It's a stunt.
Bet a dollar to a donut that the surpise entry will be a copy of Darwin's [i]Origin[/i], though. Not a 1/e copy, or one stolen by PZ from the library, or even one stolen and sent to him by a faithful discipline. No, a copy owned by him. Just more of the stunt. This part being an attempt to save his skin by blunting the outrage. Just having equal opportunity, "You know nothing is sacred around here", demonstration of principle, folks. Nothing to look at here now. Move along.
Won't work.
I hope this is what PZ did :
Open koran.
Insert cracker.
Close koran.
Step on it.
Sastra @#31:
Again, I'd like to express my appreciation for the moderation of your tone and approach in the midst of all the vituperation flying both ways.
"If something is considered 'sacred,' we should not touch it" is, I agree, too broad a rule. Not everything that could possibly be considered "sacred" to somebody can reasonably be fenced off from "profane" (i.e., non-sacred, "secular") use.
The example of Hindu veneration of cows is a fair example. Humanly speaking, no one has the right to ask or expect the whole non-Hindu world to completely change their lifestyle and adopt Hindu dietary practices in order to avoid offending Hindus. In a similar way, Catholics can't and generally don't expect non-Catholics to change their lifestyle in deference to Catholic sensibilities.
In our desacrilized society, it is hard to find parallels in common human experience for the notion of sacredness, or for deference to the sacred affinities of others. One of the few widely accepted points of reference remaining is the respect accorded to the mortal remains of our dead, and the deference shown to the family's affinity for the dead in making choices regarding how the body is to be treated (e.g., whether to bury or cremate; if burial, where and how the site is marked; whether to embalm; if cremation, whether to bury, scatter or preserve the ashes).
It is widely considered unethical and unacceptable to buy or sell a corpse, and ghoulish in the highest degree -- something like sacrilege -- to misappropriate one. Although the family from whom the body is stolen is not deprived of any material thing, to violate their special affinity by disposing of the body in a manner contrary to their intentions is considered inexcusably vile.
This, obviously, is a widely shared ethic, something we can all understand, or it wouldn't be a useful point of reference. I cite something we can all understand to offer a point of entry toward something many don't.
This, of course, is where people start screaming "It's only a cracker," "A cracker is not a person," etc. The thing is, any effort to work toward a reasonable understanding among all parties and a workable way forward (which I well realize many on both sides are not interested in) must deal with the fact that Catholic belief posits a God who has become a man and who miraculously makes himself present under the appearances of bread and wine. This doesn't mean you aren't free to find this belief incredible and ridiculous and raise the strongest objections you like. It does mean that it's not helpful to say "You're just being oversensitive."
It's true that there have been disproportionate and unacceptable actions (e.g., threats of violence) as well as what I would agree are misguided and disproportionate expressions of veneration or conclusions drawn from it. (For example, while it's true that my commitment to my family is secondary to my commitment to Jesus, since Jesus is not harmed when the Eucharist is desecrated I can't say I would rather see my family harmed than the Eucharist desecrated.) However, there is no way we can believe what we do about the Eucharist and not regard something like this as a hurtful, hateful offense, not only against those whose disproportionate actions may have helped incite PZ's wrath, but against all of us who hold the belief.
I would suggest to Turkzovka that she/he gets her/himself a baloney detection kit a la Carl Sagan in order to understand how to identify the extraordinary evidence necessary to give credence to extraordinary claims, such as the common garden variety of religious miracle. But, I am afraid that she/he just would buy a lunch box containing mystery meat sandwiches.
Turzovka's main thrust is using the argument from incredulity. Because evolution is counter-intuitive for her/him, she/he hides behind a little fluffy coverlet of patchwork knowledge to refute it, while at the same time completely embraces something truly incredulous, that is, an extraordinary miraculous claim without the required extraordinary evidence.
Scientists, however, if given the proper evidence, would accept miracles, so their incredulity could possibly be ended while Turzovka's will continue unabated through her ignorance and her arrogance.
Her/his patchy grasp of knowledge regarding evolution allows her/him to play the role of a cracked mirror, pathetically reflecting back our arguments (strawman, red herrings), distorted and fuzzy, without realizing that when doing this, she/he only shows how deep her/his ignorance is.
Though ignorance is normal, and we all are ignorant to degrees (I certainly need to know more about evolution, but unlike Turzovka through time I will), the confused manner in which religites stay steeped in their ignorance is depressingly familiar.
Yes, TG and would you be kind enough to explain how to prove any random cracker is consecrated or not?
puzzled (#332): The worst was a nun quietly asking him to return the host as he left the church.
A church member grabbed his arm, and tried to pry his fingers back to get the cracker. Catholics are now trying to get both him and his friend (who did nothing) expelled. Other Catholics tried to break into his room to retrieve the cracker.
Considering the number of death threats PZ received, it's reasonable to assume Cook received the same kind of threats.
I'm wondering Mr. Puzzled, do you think everybody should just ignore the Catholic terrorists who overreacted to a student who didn't want to eat a cracker?
Also, Mr. Puzzled, are you really an atheist, or are you just a lying stupid asshole?
@ JoJo...
comments in #340 are completely not worth even reading. You are being bated by shit-for-brains (aka laughin_guy). It's the last resort of the intellectually impaired...
So, ya know, bury the moron if you wish... but he wouldn't be worth my time. My two cents.
"You should already know the answer to this. The Eucharist is a Catholic gift meant for Catholics. By going up to receive, the understanding is that you are practicing the Catholic faith. Taking the bread away in spite of its intended purpose (and especially for public desecration) is deceitful and is morally wrong.
Let me repeat myself when I say two wrongs do not make a right."
PZ has not taken a Eucharist. So why lie and say he has ? PZ has made it clear has not done that, and yet you still feel you can made that claim without evidence.
You lied.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 12:42 PM
Yawn, what?
BluesBassist, I am totally with you. I also think the whole "an asteroid killed the dinosaurs" is BS for the same reason. If giant asteroids caused global extinctions, you think it would've happened by now. Sure, small meteorites fall to earth all the time, and sure there are giant craters on the Earth, moon, and other planets, but those could be formed by anything. Human civilization is almost 10,000 years old, how could we not have seen these processes that take millions of years or have a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of occuring in any given year.
Your rules don't apply to anyone else no matter how much you want them to.
You mean, like threatening someone's life over the "theft" of a cracker?
Time for Annie Nonny Mouse (with a few others) to get tossed into the dungeon for:
1. Godbotting
2. Insipidity
3. Stupidity
Really, posting passages from Anselm of Canterbury? That's what you've got?
And now, for something completely different!
http://cd7.planet.ee/files/lolcat.JPG
http://geekfriendly.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/schrodinger_s-l…
http://bp3.blogger.com/_48pIyTbrm4A/Ryf91fXlkvI/AAAAAAAAAuA/0nJnXfRnmKQ…
http://lolcats.com/images/u/08/23/lolcatsdotcomzd1ykij1g17vcrdx.jpg
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/deg/campfire/friday/LOLCatHank.jpg
And have some http://www.lolcatbible.com for good measure.
347...thanks for proving my point for me: your "recitation" of the events is fun, but where are your facts? no newspaper has reported that any assault took place.
Moreover, your analysis makes no mention of a death threat against webster cook: only against pz, AFTER he threatened desecration....in response to the alleged death threats against webster cook.
I ask again.......where are the "death threats" against webster cook? anyone??
This is too rich. Religion has actually people discussing about freaking crackers. Hahahaha. The world is crazy. It's less crazy than during the Dark Ages, though.
I'm really impressed that PZ has stood up to the BS. Many atheists tend to play dead too often. I have a great deal of respect for PZ, Dawkins and the rest for finally trying to put and end to this BS where the religious get to control other people. I think the University should be proud of the eloquence and straight thinking.
I just realized this morning that we have a form of state controlled form of bigotry in that the likes of Focus on the Family is allowed to discriminate against hiring atheists. Isn't that wonderful. Every job ad they post in the paper says you have to write a "Christian affirmation" to get to work for them.
Documented legal bias against a section of the population.
You have every right to believe in what you want and I respect that, but please have some respect for our beliefs!
No, none of us are obliged to respect anything. You are of course free to believe, embrace and practice whatever retarded class of absurdity you like, and I am likewise free to point and laugh, breathless with mirth, tears of helpless hilarity running down my face ... Thats how it works.
He very publicly asked for the Body & Blood of the Son of God to be given into his hand so he could desecrate and destroy it.
No, he asked for a communion wafer.
However, there is no way we can believe what we do about the Eucharist - SDG
How very true! Sorry to quote-mine, but this one was just too good to miss!
"I just realized this morning that we have a form of state controlled form of bigotry in that the likes of Focus on the Family is allowed to discriminate against hiring atheists. Isn't that wonderful. Every job ad they post in the paper says you have to write a "Christian affirmation" to get to work for them."
Here in the UK that would be illegal. Religious organisations can only insist on a person having religious belief if they are to become a priest or the like.
I'm sure that Prof. Myers is considering suicide now - his personal integrity has been questioned by somone called "Laughing_Guy"...
I'm just curious as to why one would actually derive any self-worth from the "respect" and ravings of someone with no higher brain functions. I can understand why aggrieved people would write and hope for divine intervention (they can't do anything and need to vent their hatred and attempt to enforce respect for themselves and their beliefs in a way that allows them to pretend that they aren't actually trying to do so), but I can't understand why I would care what some random on the Internet thinks of me, and I can't see anyone with brain function above the brain stem thinking that I actually should care about their rantings. So, why do it? Don't you have a Darwin Award to be working at? (With the combination of hormones and lack of higher brain function exhibited here, it shouldn't take long.)
Putting aside crackergate for a moment, I have a message for
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy
I am a military spouse (USN). I will not throw my husband's, my father's, or my son's rank around, since it's utterly IRRELEVANT to this discussion and not only inappropriate, but unethical.
You strike me as the type of man who throws his rank around to intimidate others. During our military life I have crossed paths with the type of man I strongly suspect you are. They are the ones who open military functions with a prayer (only to their godfairy of course). They are the ones who have religious symbols in their offices and mistreat and abuse anyone serving under them who dare raise a complaint about the religious symbols and prayers being shoved down their throats.
It will be incredibly interesting if our paths cross in the military. I kind of hope they do. Your name and rank have been jotted down for future reference.
You seem to think it's appropriate to use your name and rank as a signature in personal, (and controversial), correspondences. You might want to learn to control your arrogance. It takes all of 30 seconds for someone with access to find out exactly who and where you are. You put your family at unnecessary risk by allowing your whereabouts to be known to strangers on the Internet. It is irresponsible of you. Although I have never met an Atheist who would do harm to a religiously deluded person, there may be one. Plus, who knows what other debates you've gotten into. You might piss off a whacko of another religious feather. Those are abundant.
There is no need to use your name or toss your rank out there. If words have validity, a person does not need to throw around titles and ranks to get people to take him/her seriously. If words are a crock of BS, no amount of title-tossing or rank-pulling will make those words any more valid.
Yes, TG and would you be kind enough to explain how to prove any random cracker is consecrated or not?
++++++++++++
Not to you.
no newspaper has reported that any assault took place.
Because that would make it especially true.
Hey Nick Gotts ... It's just a frackin' blob of cells.
Not all beliefs deserve respect.
For example, I have absolutely no respect for the beliefs of members of the Aryan Nation. Do you? I sure hope not.
Yes, everyone has the right to believe in what they want. However, no one has the right to insist that their beliefs must be treated with respect. Respect needs to be earned.
"Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy"
Ix-nay on the awberries-stray!
"no newspaper has reported that any assault took place."
I read the news item myself, Mr. Puzzled. Cook was assaulted by a Catholic asshole.
Your "The worst was a nun quietly asking him to return the host as he left the church." is not correct. It's a fact that Cook was violently assaulted (in a church). It's a fact Catholics are trying to get him expelled.
Also, your nun who asked him to return the cracker was an idiot and deserves to be ridiculed.
It's interesting that you, an atheist, call the worthless cracker a host. I don't think you're an atheist. I think you're a shit-for-brains lying Catholic asshole. You sure do act like one.
no one is asking pz to have religious beliefs....they are asking him to refrain from certain overt acts; engaging in outrageous behavior where the only goal is to outrage and incite is more Howard Stern than science. . .
again, this all allegedly started because as many of the chorus have stated, pz was making the case that a cracker was worth less than a human and he didn't like that webster cook got death threats for stealing a host; yet no one has proven that cook actually got death threats.....
only that pz did, after he made his own threats....interesting.
Of course, we all accept your unstated premise that a godbelief is somehow required for hope, joy and the desire to survive. Oh wait, we don't. You just make shit up, as if religion has anything to offer, what a joke.
Maybe you could start by explaining why animals are doing fine and surviving anyway, without any sign of believing in gods, nevermind your specific god.
Donahue and Catholic attackers
have clearly gone totally crackers!
The taste can't be beat
when god's what you eat.
Try the new Messiah Snackers™!*
The comedy's really first class,
but I almost gave this a pass.
Then I thought "would a priest
say the god that you eat
is still god when he comes out your ass?"
*For when Scooby Snacks™ aren't holy enough. Messiah Snacks™! Now with less flavor!
All miracles cures at Lourdes - Explain it for us. The Doctors can't explain it and I know none of you can. Most of you will not even read it-
Colonel Paul Pellegrin
3 October 1950
age 52; Toulon, France Post-operative fistula following a liver abscess in 1948. By the time of his pilgrimage in 1950, the condition had degenerated to an open wound that required multiple dressing changes each day, and showed no sign of healing. On emerging from his second bath in the waters, the wound had completely closed, and the condition never bothered him again. Recognized by the diocese of Fréjus-Toulon, France on 8 December 1953.
Brother Schwager Léo
30 April 1952
age 28; Fribourg, Switzerland multiple sclerosis for five years; recognized by the diocese of Fribourg, Switzerland on 18 December 1960
Alice Couteault, born Alice Gourdon
15 May 1952
age 34; Bouille-Loretz, France multiple sclerosis for three years; recognized by the diocese of Poitiers, France on 16 July 1956
Marie Bigot
8 October 1953 and 10 October 1954
age 31 and 32; La Richardais, France arachnoiditis of posterior fossa (blindness, deafness, hemiplegia); recognized by the diocese of Rennes, France 15 August 1956
Ginette Nouvel, born Ginette Fabre
21 September 1954
age 26; Carmaux, France Budd-Chiari disease (supra-hepatic venous thrombosis); recognized by the diocese of Albi on 31 May 1963
Elisa Aloi, later Elisa Varcalli
5 June 1958
age 27; Patti, Italy tuberculous osteo-arthritis with fistulae at multiple sites in the right lower limb; recognized by the diocese of Messine, Italy on 26 May 1965
Juliette Tamburini
17 July 1959
age 22; Marseilles, France femoral osteoperiostitis with fistulae, epistaxis, for ten years; recognized by the diocese of Marseille, France on 11 May 1965
Vittorio Micheli
1 June 1963
age 23; Scurelle, Italy Sarcoma (cancer) of pelvis; tumor so large that his left thigh became loose from the socket, leaving his left leg limp and paralyzed. After taking the waters, he was free of pain, and could walk. By February 1964 the tumor was gone, the hip joint had recalcified, and he returned to a normal life. Recognized by the diocese of Trento, Italy on 26 May 1976.
Serge Perrin
1 May 1970
age 41; Lion D'Angers, France Recurrent right hemiplegia, with ocular lesions, due to bilateral carotid artery disorders. Symptoms, which included headache, impaired speech and vision, and partial right-side paralysis began without warning in February 1964. During the next six years he became wheelchair-confined, and nearly blind. While on pilgrimage to Lourdes in April 1970, his symptoms became worse, and he was near death on 30 April. Wheeled to the Basilica for the Ceremony the next morning, he felt a sudden warmth from head to toe, his vision returned, and he was able to walk unaided. First person cured during the Ceremony of the Anointing of the Sick. Recognized by the diocese of Angers, France on 17 June 1978.
Delizia Cirolli, later Delizia Costa
24 December 1976
age 12; Paterno, Italy Ewing's Sarcoma of right knee; recgonized by the diocese of Catania, Italy on 28 June 1989
Jean-Pierre Bély
9 October 1987
age 51; French multiple sclerosis; recognized by the diocese of Angoulême on 9 February 1999
Puzzled. Apt.
#368, once again you prove my point for me:
where is evidence of the death threat against cook that (allegedly) started this all?
where is the "newspaper account" of a violent assault?
I am not the only atheist that dislikes myers as a spokesperson: read some of the opinions of other scienceblog bloggers.......
I think the best analogy is this:
You know those little flags that are sometimes handed out for free at parades on national holidays and the like, so people can joyfully wave them around? Some guy, let's call him 'Webster', takes his given flag, but since he doesn't have any nationalistic urges, he decides to NOT wave it around and just takes it back home with him. Unfortunately he's noticed by several nationalistic nuts who think it's their duty to _fight_ with Webster to get the little flag back; because you see, little American flags are very important to American nationalists. Webster eventually manages to escape; you'd think the story would end here, but no! The Nationalist League of America decides that such a crime cannot go unpunished, and asks nationalists throughout America to take action; and indeed they do: They send Webster insults and death threats, they even try to interfere with his life.
Eventually this comes to the attention of another man, a blogger (let's call him 'PZ'). PZ, partly because he's not a very fervent nationalist himself, and partly because he's, well, sane, is shocked and outraged that so much maliciousness could be harnessed over something so insignificant. After all, he says, it's just a little flag. So to show his support for Webster and his opposition to the nutty nationalists, PZ declares on his blog that if someone will send him a little American flag, he'll do something to 'disrespect' it, if such a thing is possible.
So what do the nationalists do? Much the same that they did to Webster: They flood his e-mail box with spam, they send him death threats, and they try to get him fired from his job. They say PZ is a bigot, that he hates nationalists, that he's impinging on their freedom to be nationalists, that by disrespecting a little American flag he's severely hurting their feelings, that he'll be tortured in North Korea for eternity for having disrespected a little American flag, etc etc etc.
------
Of course, I'm being a bit too generous to Catholics. While the nationalists have obviously been driven to insanity by their nationalism in this analogy, they aren't being completely irrational about this: At least the thing they feel so strongly about (the USA) actually exists.
For my analogy to be completely fair, the nationalists would have to believe that each and every one of these mass-produced flags has the magical power to turn into the metaphysical body of Benjamin Franklin when it is eaten by a nationalist.
Mrs "Alandria",
Thank you for your concern. You are certainly free to form your opinion about me given all that you know. I am confident that if we do meet someday you will find that your characterization of me is quite incorrect.
As to putting down my name and rank to my personal thoughts, I don't see such as "arrogance" but simply openly stating my viewpoint. There was a deeper reason why I added my title which I have expressed here. Again, you are free to take me at my word on why I did so or simply dismiss me out of hand.
Regards to you.
OH NO, PZ DONE COMMITTED UH CRIMEZ!!?!?
Son: (coming in the door) 'Ello Mum. 'Ello Dad.
K: 'Ello son.
S: There's a dead bishop on the landing, dad!
K: Really?
M: Where's it from?
S: Waddya mean?
M: What's its diocese?S: Well, it looked a bit Bath and Wells-ish to me...
K: (getting up and going out the door) I'll go and have a look.
M: I don't know...kids bringin' 'em in here....
S: It's not me!
M: I've got three of 'em down by the bin, and the dustmen won't touch 'em!
K: (coming back in) Leicester.
M: 'Ow d'you know?
K: Tattooed on the back o' the neck. I'll call the police.
M: Shouldn't you call the church?
S: Call the church police!
K: All right. (shouting) The Church Police!
(sirens racing up, followed by a tremendous crash)
(the church police burst in the door)
Detective What's all this then, Amen!
M: Are you the church police?
All the police officers: (in unison) Ho, Yes!
M: There's another dead bishop on the landing, vicar sargeant!
Detective: Uh, Detective Parson, madam. I see... suffrican, or diocisian?
M: 'Ow should I know?
D: It's tatooed on the back o' their neck. (spying the tart) 'Ere, is that rat
tart?
M: yes.
D: Disgusting! Right! Men, the chase is on! Now we should all kneel!
(they all kneel)
All: O Lord, we beseech thee, tell us 'oo croaked Lester!
(thunder)
Voice of the Lord: The one in the braces, he done it!
Klaus: It's a fair cop, but society's to blame.
Detective: Agreed. We'll be charging them too.
K: I'd like you to take the three boddlabin into consideration.
D: Right. I'll now ask you all to conclude this harrest with a hymn.
All: All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The church has nicked them all.
Amen.
At the very least, I'd say that even if the events Fatima WERE some sort of strange localized atmospheric phenomenon, it is quite strange that they took place exactly when the children had predicted a miracle, no?
However praiseworthy your intentions, Turzovka, you see, you are wasting your time. The atheists have a dogma that there are no miracles, you see, and thus the evidence cannot be admitted. They will bring up silly ideas such as mass hallucination before taking any of your evidence seriously, even though an unbiased look at the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano (studied by the World Health Organization, who admitted that science had no explanation), the miracles of Padre Pio, Fatima, incorrupt saints, healings at Lourdes, etc etc. would give them a lot to chew on. They will not check into any of this, though, because it is incompatible with their dogma.
They ask for evidence, but then reject it out of hand, or say that the miracle must be able to be repeated at will.
#339
please have some respect for our beliefs!
Get some respectable beliefs.
SDG @ #344:
In our desacrilized society, it is hard to find parallels in common human experience for the notion of sacredness, or for deference to the sacred affinities of others.
You can't quite bring yourself to say it, can you? It's a secular society with freedom of expression as a foundational principle, and, as such, it cannot have provisions with the force of law that require "deference to the sacred affinities of others." Yet that's what you want, and that's the entire reason PZ did what he did.
As the only even remotely reasonable commenter who's come here over this "from the other side," please explain to me how you yourself can make the point, and then fail to see it?
If this is how secularists behave, I'll have nothing to do with it. Such intolerance and bigotry is unbecoming a college professor.
Consider me a former secularist now. This intolerance from this professor, is embarrassing to the human race.
I just wanted to point out (though it's probably been noticed already) that, I think, every single "concerned Catholic" that visits this site spells PZ's name wrong. Is that because it is the same person, or because Catholics have a habit of dropping random 'e's into peoples' names?
@Chicago,
Please explain the following miracle of God's love to us:
Miracle Cures at Lourdes: 1/75,000
Rate of spontaneous cures elsewhere: 1/50,000
former secularist: good one.
puzzled, you said you are an atheist, and it's obvious you were lying.
Cook said he received death threats. I'm more willing to trust him than you, especially since you proved you know virtually nothing about the cracker incident. You didn't even know about his being assaulted in a church.
You're a Catholic, puzzled, and like most Catholics you're a liar, a moron, and a stupid asshole.
No need to snipe TG, I haven't insulted you yet.
It's simply that in order to claim that PZ can't prove he has a consecrated cracker, one must be able to prove that a cracker is consecrated. I would then assume that since you are the one questioning the "consecrated-ness" of the cracker formerly in PZ's possession, you would be able to prove if one was consecrated or not.
Simple.
"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn
Rayven Alandria said:
Sigh. Okay look, first your name isn't very common so telling a guy to not sign his full title cuz it's not careful is the same as me saying to not sign your name because there isn't a load of Rayven Alandrias around. Not that I think that this other guy or you are in any threat.
Second... Don't go the "You might get killed by the side that disagrees" alley. You sound smart, you should be above such paranoia. It doesn't work that way. There are killers everywhere, and killers are INSANE. Their religious allegiance does not matter. There are murdering christians, there are murdering muslims, there are murdering atheists, there are murdering jews, there are murdering raelians. Insanity, lack of morals... they have nothing to do with what your faith or lack of faith is. It's social.
"Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy"
Ix-nay on the awberries-stray!
Now that is admittedly funny and got me to chuckle. :)
Consider me a former secularist now. This intolerance from this professor, is embarrassing to the human race.
So what does this mean exactly? That you've accepted Jesus into your heart, in a fit of pique? I'm pretty certain it's not supposed to be done that way ...
Low population growth rates are not caused by secularism, but rather, both are caused by other factors.
Since children are an asset in agrarian societies, but a liability in industrialized societies, industrialization decreases population growth rates. Also, industrialization brings a higher quality of life and better education, which probably increases the rate of secularism.
Hi Janus, since you mentioned them, maybe you can point out a link to me: WHAT death threats did webster cook recieve? the Florida and A.P. sources on this don't mention death threats.....
people mindlessly repeating "webster cook got death threats" because their leader says so sounds a bit like. . . like religion. gulp.
If you think it's okay to insist on obligatory deference to religious symbols, you weren't a secularist to start with.
The thing is, any effort to work toward a reasonable understanding among all parties and a workable way forward (which I well realize many on both sides are not interested in) must deal with the fact that Catholic belief posits a God who has become a man and who miraculously makes himself present under the appearances of bread and wine.
Well, I prefer to deal with that fact by pointing out what a friggin' stupid doctrine it is, not to mention idolatrous. A sane, grown person can not seriously believe that a communion wafer actually, really, truly, magically turns into human flesh or anything else as a result of being blessed. Did Jesus really need to spell it out, that what he said was merely a metaphor? He also said he was a vine; do you take that literally?
Explanation please - Rob
Colonel Paul Pellegrin
3 October 1950
age 52; Toulon, France Post-operative fistula following a liver abscess in 1948. By the time of his pilgrimage in 1950, the condition had degenerated to an open wound that required multiple dressing changes each day, and showed no sign of healing. On emerging from his second bath in the waters, the wound had completely closed, and the condition never bothered him again. Recognized by the diocese of Fréjus-Toulon, France on 8 December 1953.
Brother Schwager Léo
30 April 1952
age 28; Fribourg, Switzerland multiple sclerosis for five years; recognized by the diocese of Fribourg, Switzerland on 18 December 1960
Alice Couteault, born Alice Gourdon
15 May 1952
age 34; Bouille-Loretz, France multiple sclerosis for three years; recognized by the diocese of Poitiers, France on 16 July 1956
Marie Bigot
8 October 1953 and 10 October 1954
age 31 and 32; La Richardais, France arachnoiditis of posterior fossa (blindness, deafness, hemiplegia); recognized by the diocese of Rennes, France 15 August 1956
Ginette Nouvel, born Ginette Fabre
21 September 1954
age 26; Carmaux, France Budd-Chiari disease (supra-hepatic venous thrombosis); recognized by the diocese of Albi on 31 May 1963
Elisa Aloi, later Elisa Varcalli
5 June 1958
age 27; Patti, Italy tuberculous osteo-arthritis with fistulae at multiple sites in the right lower limb; recognized by the diocese of Messine, Italy on 26 May 1965
Juliette Tamburini
17 July 1959
age 22; Marseilles, France femoral osteoperiostitis with fistulae, epistaxis, for ten years; recognized by the diocese of Marseille, France on 11 May 1965
Vittorio Micheli
1 June 1963
age 23; Scurelle, Italy Sarcoma (cancer) of pelvis; tumor so large that his left thigh became loose from the socket, leaving his left leg limp and paralyzed. After taking the waters, he was free of pain, and could walk. By February 1964 the tumor was gone, the hip joint had recalcified, and he returned to a normal life. Recognized by the diocese of Trento, Italy on 26 May 1976.
Serge Perrin
1 May 1970
age 41; Lion D'Angers, France Recurrent right hemiplegia, with ocular lesions, due to bilateral carotid artery disorders. Symptoms, which included headache, impaired speech and vision, and partial right-side paralysis began without warning in February 1964. During the next six years he became wheelchair-confined, and nearly blind. While on pilgrimage to Lourdes in April 1970, his symptoms became worse, and he was near death on 30 April. Wheeled to the Basilica for the Ceremony the next morning, he felt a sudden warmth from head to toe, his vision returned, and he was able to walk unaided. First person cured during the Ceremony of the Anointing of the Sick. Recognized by the diocese of Angers, France on 17 June 1978.
Delizia Cirolli, later Delizia Costa
24 December 1976
age 12; Paterno, Italy Ewing's Sarcoma of right knee; recgonized by the diocese of Catania, Italy on 28 June 1989
Jean-Pierre Bély
9 October 1987
age 51; French multiple sclerosis; recognized by the diocese of Angoulême on 9 February 1999
Puzzled: Let's a assume for a second that you are right and there were no death threats (and, Catholics being Catholics, I doubt this very much). What about those who called for his immediate expulsion from the university? You don't think THAT is an overreaction to what he did? Because I do. Get expelled for pilfering a bit of bread? Give me a break.
Posted by: TS | July 24, 2008 1:26 PM
Nice concern troll.
To be fair, I often misspell it as well (although I tend to correct it more often than not). It is a rare spelling of a common name.
Heresy! BOW DOWN TO THE MIGHTY COW.
...damn I need a steak. But I got to take my stupid bird to the vet and I don't have time to cook tonight! Boo. Boo.
The atheists have a dogma that there are no miracles
False - it's just that to establish a miracle would require much better evidence than has ever been presented. If palmira@259 is correct, the "miracle" of Fatima was a politically-motivated fraud, and is disbelieved even by Portuguese Catholic priests!
Not sniping MX. I don't intend to impart that knowledge in this place to you or anyone else.
The intent to desecrate a consecrated host (the Eucharistic body of Christ) is PZ's. The burden of proof that he has done that is solely his, not mine. The methods of proof should have beeen considered before the claim was made he had done it, a claim he made yesterday.
Of course, this is quite obvious even to juveniles.
bobc, calling me an "asshole" and a "lying stupid asshole".....what great argument! such witty comebacks! why is it so hard (and clearly, troubling) for you to understand that other atheists don't agree with pz's um, methodology?
so what is the source of "webster cook says" he got death threats? did you speak with him?
okay why don't you just call me a lying, stupid, madras-plaid asshole? just some helpful suggestions as you seem excessively angry at me for asking such a simple question.
:)
Everything that can be said has probably already been said, but all I want to say at this point is:
If this list represents what happens to people when atheism is adopted, then the church was right to outlaw it (if the church indeed ever did.) All I see here is a mob. An angry, rude, vindictive mob. I know you don't care how you appear though, which further bolsters my perspective. Who would want to listen to you other than angry, rude people. Grow up.
Seems a lot of true believin' Catholics are really hoping the Eucharists bled for PZ.
On one board for those Catholics who reject Vatican II (i.e., are really truly crazy, think Jews are evil, etc.), someone posted this on a thread about PZ's desecration:
Good point Michelle @ 398. The biscuit is basically a graven image, which by their own commandments should be verbotten.
PZ is a such a pompous phony.
He acts as if his desecration is meaningless, and then draws out the drama for another day.
He probably sits home masturbating to the number of posts he's gotten off of his own initial masturbatory exercise.
For a grown man to act this way is embarrassing.
It doesn't matter if PZ loses his job, his livelihood, or his head, as he's already destroyed his credibility.
Yuck!
#399, palmira is full of BS. Anyone who has studied Fatima at all knows those claims are bogus. Please try again.
The one thing palmira is correct about is that Fatima is not a dogma of the Church. That is correct - no purported miracle is a dogma.
Chicago:
Quit with the cut and paste.
There are unexplained cures at a HIGHER rate in places (namely, everyplace else) other than Lourdes. Why is Lourdes special?
Where have we claimed that science has an explanation for all observed phenomena? All that means is this needs to be put under scientific scrutiny, nothing more, nothing less. You pull out the "I don't know so God did it" card, which is pointless. Until mechanisms have been proposed and all possible have
The worst was a nun quietly asking him to return the host as he left the church.
Puzzled, you were lying when you said you're an atheist. I'm sure of it.
No atheist would call the cracker a host. I have no respect for liars. Go fuck yourself mister.
chicago@394,
Are you seriously expecting us to accept the word of the diocese of this, that and the other that miracle cures have occurred, without fully authenticated medical reports before and after the alleged occurrence? You must think we were born yesterday.
@ chicago
Explain to us the evidence you have that "godditit". Please show us the bridge you build to jump the massive fucking whole from "we don't know how this happened" to "god did it, and not only that, this SPECIFIC god did it and no other gods were involved- nor do they even exist."
Explanation, please. Oh, and if you don't reply I'll copy and paste this a bunch, which seems to be your substitute for having something good to say.
Chicago.
Other religions make the same claims. How do you prove them wrong?
Steph blathered
"All I see here is a mob. An angry, rude, vindictive mob. "
You are blind.
Hi Steph, I'm an atheist and I'm offended by your comments. I am neither angry nor rude. You shouldn't generalize.
Steph @402:
Reality check, please You are looking at an Internet blog. Yes, some of your Eucharists may have been desecrated. But nobody has died or been sent to the hospital. A few people have been rather ruthlessly insulted. Your religious sensibilities have been offended. But that is the extent of the damage caused by this "angry, vindictive mob". No Jews suffered a pogrom; no embassies were burned; nobody died. Just ponder that for a bit, will you?
Amy, thank you for the civil response. The reason I bring up the "alleged" death threats is that so many of the posters here--and pz myers, in his original posts on the subject--have used that as their rallying cry: that a cracker is not worth a human being's life and thus the outrage was directed at people making death threats against webster cook. I agree with that.
But now that more of the story is unfolding (the hearing on cook's impeachment as a student senator), there is absolutely no mention of a death threat.
I am just saying, if that was the original premise, that a cracker is not worth a death threat, if we remove the threat, then it seems to me we don't have the need for similar outrageous conduct on the part of an atheist who claims his only motive was sticking up for a student who received a death threat.
Steph:
...and the horse you rode in on.
chicago,
You list a bunch of supposed miracles that are recognized by Catholic dioceses. Were any of them recognized by medical professionals? Someone should be able to track down that one in 1999. Also, haven't millions of people visited Lourdes looking for a miracle? You only have less than 20 examples. That is a very low success rate. What did all those other people do wrong?
Also, the miracles peaked 50 years ago. It was one a year in the 50's then only 1-2 every decade afterwards. Could that be because healthy modern skepticism would have easily found fraud in many of the earlier "miracles"?
Explanation please - Rob
Whether it's Fatima or the yet another televised megachurch collecting the tax-free donations, faith healing is never more than a grift and a fraud, and a profitable one at that.
As the wise men say, "There's a seeker born every minute," so, "Never give a seeker an even break."
Explanation please - Rob
Oh allow me. Run a million people, with a bias to the credulous and religious, and you'll get a crop of juicy anecdotes, some genuine spontaneous improvements (sheer numbers will do that) and some outright lies. I bet every one of your little stories, if there was any meaningful evidence to parse, would qualify as one of the above.
If you can reliably repeat the results under controlled conditions then you've got something, otherwise, it's just an anecdote, like Mohammed and the winged horse, or Joseph Smith and the golden plates.
SDG wrote:
It reminds me of some old Sufi stories:
-- Idries Shah
Methinks you want to suffer, else how else would you know if you believed?
Agreed. I hope he hurries up and posts images of pooped-on holier than holy crackers.
From wikipedia:
I am on the edge of my seat here. Show us the poopy cracker already!
...I had no idea that the church was supposed to make laws. I guess I'll have to turn myself to the polic- Oh wait, you mean doctrines. Who cares.
We're not quite an angry mob. We're an outraged mob. Why are you so pissed off anyway? Your bible does say "an eye for an eye."
Anyone who has studied Fatima at all knows those claims are bogus. - Dave Mueller
[citation needed]
Alright fucktard. I've done the work for you, here's one linked from PZ's original post:
http://www.wftv.com/news/16806050/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news
"Cook, who was raised Catholic, said he decided to bring the Eucharist home after a church leader tried to physically pry it from his hand."
It's pretty obvious from Cook's comments that he was threatened via e-mail as well. That not good enough for you? That's not enough to get outraged over?
asshole.
Prove that God didn't do it Rob-
As far as Gods love for you, what do you need god to come down and give you a hug? that's why he gave you a mother. You don't find it at all interesting that all of these cases have been in one way or another related to faith? faith in God. 70% percent of Doctors believe in miracles, but because God hasn't reached down and given Rob a hug with his own two arms, therefore; God doesn't exist for Rob or the rest of you.
.. a nun prying a cracker from a hand is now a "violent physical assault"? I bet she was pretty buff!
this just gets more hilarious....
oh and still no mention of a death threat. :)
TG, PZ claims to have received a cracker form those who sent them. He himself doesn't believe that such a miracle takes place. So he need not care about how to prove it true as he believes the whole act to be false. All that matters for him is that he received crackers which the senders claim to be consecrated.
As for you, I'm trying to state that I don't believe you actually have the ability to tell between random crackers which has been consecrated and which has not.
As for PZ, he's making the point that for those of us who are not Catholic, we will not show undue respect for or condone threats of violence made out of care for an unprovable belief.
puzzled, The death threats were just a small part of the problem. The student was assaulted (which you deny which proves you know nothing about what happened). Catholics are now trying to get two students expelled and one professor fired.
By the way, did I mention you're a lying asshole? You said you were an atheist but you called the cracker a host. No atheist would say that.
Dave Mueller at 378,
So same question for you then. Do you believe in all the miracles and such that other religions claim? You know, the ones from Islam, Shinto, Norse Mythology, Janeism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, etc? Hey, Check out the Hindu Milk Miracle of 1995. Thousands of people experienced it. It MUST be true! But wait, it can't be right, because it's not your religion.
You're just as skeptical as us atheists in regards to every other religion but yours gets a free pass? Well that's bullshit.
When you can show why your "miracles" are better and more authentic than anyone else's, come back and we can talk. Until then, you should probably just sit in the corner and not let on how gullible you are.
No, no, Chicago. You have to disprove all the things Allah has done.
@Chicago:
You don't understand science and logic do you? You're making the claim, YOU make the proof. All you're doing is arguing from ignorance.
The blasphemy on these threads prove god doesn't exist, does it not? The god of the bible would strike everyone here dead.
Anyone? Anyone? Jehovah? Anyone?
Um... chicago... why does saying that 70% of doctors believe in miracles somehow make the existence of miracles credible? Medical doctors are regular people. There is this misconception that they are somehow brilliant. I assure you, they are no more brilliant than the average person.
In my little universe, no gods exist. Leave it at that, won't you?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378081,00.html
http://www.wftv.com/news/16806050/detail.html
You can be less puzzled now...
Say, BobC?
You must have had a really tough time of it in high school, didn't you little guy?
*laughing*
Hey Nick Gotts ... It's just a frackin' blob of cells.
- Jack Picknell
No you psychopathic scumbag, PZ's son is a person.
@Puzzled: they did mention death threats in another article. Anyway, yes, a nun trying to pry your hands is a violent act. You CANNOT, under any circumstances, assault a person. The moment you try to force someone's body (fingers or anything), it becomes an assault. That's the law.
This was a physical assault and personally I would've sued that bitch.
chicago sez:
Prove that God didn't do it Rob-
If I can jump in...
Chicago, it is not up to Rob to prove God didn't do it. You made the claim that God did do it, you are the one responsible for proving your claim. I can just as easily claim that Russell's Teapot worked those "miracles", and it would by just as absurd to expect you to prove it didn't.
--Chicago
Prove that Thor didn't do it, moron.
Anything your jeebus can do, Thor can do better. Thor can do anything better than you. Now with more lightning!
I can't believe you were stooooopid enough to pull out that argument here, Chicago. It's hard for me to understand how you can remember to breathe with all your stupid.
To those who attempt to convince an atheist of hte truth, remember;
Proverbs 27:22
"Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him."
Matthew 7:6
"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
The abusive, insulting, vulgar responses these atheists post is certain proof of the validity of these scriptures.
Praise be to God the Father Almighty and all Honour and Glory to His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
To those who attempt to convince an atheist of the truth, remember;
Proverbs 27:22
"Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him."
Matthew 7:6
"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
The abusive, insulting, vulgar responses these atheists post is certain proof of the validity of these scriptures.
Praise be to God the Father Almighty and all Honour and Glory to His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
"Consider me a former secularist now. This intolerance from this professor, is embarrassing to the human race."
If you are so easily dissuaded from secularism then I have to question how committed you were.
Still, I hope you find the theocracy you clearly want. Just make sure it is nowhere near me.
.. a nun prying a cracker from a hand is now a "violent physical assault"?
It wasn't a nun, moron. Some shithead grabbed his arm and tried pry his fingers away from the cracker, or what you call a host because you're a Catholic (not an atheist as you claimed you lying shithead). Yes, that's violent. If somebody grabbed my arm and tried to pry my fingers open he would get clobbered.
By the way puzzled, did I mention you're a liar?
chicago, can you prove that I didn't do it? Can you prove the FSM didn't do it? No you can't. You have a list of church recognized "miracles" that magically has trailed off over time. The miracle rate is also really low. Does that also mean if my loved ones die it's because they didn't deserve a miracle that costs god nothing?
Also, you do realize that atheists also get spontaneous cancer remission at the same rate as theists.
You have trouble with the internet I see. http://news.google.com, search for "webster cook death threat" or ANYTHING similar and you'll find plenty of articles to suit your fancy.
Is that what you really want though? A death threat. The physical force, threats of breaking and entering, the REAL proceedings to get this student expelled. All of that is ok with you? We don't need a fucking death threat to get angry over something.
real original.
Hi Asylumseeker,
nice articles but still no death threats re: webster cook. . . threats to steal the wafer "back" and telling him he would go to hell if he didn't return the host, but no death threats.
thanks for the links, though.
Jack, don't make us start posting quotes from other books on how ridiculous religious ideas are. They'd have just as much authority as your book, which is, after all, just a book like any other book.
it's funny how you said there isn't any kind of religion on earth that deserve respect when you all treat atheism as if it is your own religion, and say people should "respect" your "Godless" beliefs...
And hey, it's BREAD, not crackers..
seriously, if you all love science and reason so much, at least you should be more "scientific" and "specific" on what you're talking about.
As for the claim 70% of doctors believing in miracles, I suspect that what the data really showed is that a large number of doctors accept that some patients die when they do not expect them to, some patients live longer that they expect them to, and some patients end up cured and they cannot explain how the cure happened.
Not miracles, just doctors realising that the human body is a complex thing, and sometimes things happen in it that they cannot yet explain.
Chicago. Get a grip.
Hey puzzled. I don't believe you're an atheist.
I think you're a concern troll.
Are you a former Catholic?
Spike Milligan brilliantly sent up the idea of ridiculous beliefs:
(Knock on door)
"Good afternoon madam. We're Jehovah's Burglars."
"Jehova's Burglars?"
"Yes madam, and we're being persecuted by the police over our beliefs."
"What beliefs?"
"We believe you have a lot of valuables in your house..."
For details on Fatima, you only need read the wikipedia article to know it wasn't a fraud perpetrated by the Portuguese Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fatima
Call it strange atmospheric phenomena if you like, but a fraud!?! That's a joke.
BTW, regarding another discussion, the cures at Lourdes (and those used to canonize saints) are ALL approved by medical doctors. I used to have a link that described the process in detail...I'll see if I can find it.
"I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them -- my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure -- but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart. If you can smuggle some out from under the armed guards and grim nuns hovering over your local communion ceremony, just write to me and I'll send you my home address." - PZ
You have it all gargled, MX.
PZ specifically refers to "consecrated" communion wafers. The burden of proof that he has one and has done something to it is uopn him and him alone. If it boils down to the word of the guy who sent it to him in the mail - ROTFLMAO! That's some really great science for you.
"It's funny how you said there isn't any kind of religion on earth that deserve respect when you all treat atheism as if it is your own religion, and say people should "respect" your "Godless" beliefs..."
Atheism is a religion the way bald in a hair colour.
puzzled @ 369:
You don't seem to get it. How is PZ's criticism of religion the same as conducting science? The fact is, it's not. He's criticizing religious beliefs that are not based in reality, and have no proof. Science is what he does in his day job, a completely separate thing. Criticizing religious belief is what he does outside of that. I can be a professional in one industry, and criticize something in another area. It happens all the time. Are you incapable of, or just unwilling to make, this distinction?
"again, this all allegedly started because as many of the chorus have stated, pz was making the case that a cracker was worth less than a human and he didn't like that webster cook got death threats for stealing a host; yet no one has proven that cook actually got death threats.....
only that pz did, after he made his own threats....interesting. "
No, you apparently do not know the back story, or have forgotten it: This started because Mr. Cook took a wafer out of church, and a furor over his having done so ensued. PZ then criticized (rightly) the furor for all its pathetic hand-wringing and yelling over a simple piece of bread and the ease with which religious anger is stoked at the slightest touch, and begins receiving "prayers" and physical threats on his person. All this is really a case study in how Christians act much the same way they perceive the acts of Muslims or adherents of other religions when something is perceived as being disrespected. Mulims in Afghanistan threw a fit when a former Mulism converted to Christianity. Christians here would likely take similar offense to a Christian going Muslim. How do I know this? Well, there are still plenty of Christians willing to go about beating Jews over the head with the Jesus thing, so it stands to reason any other deviance from Christianity would similarly be uh, frowned upon. Christians here will claim they don't act like Muslims over there, but really, this is a function of the rule of law, and if this society was theocratic as many Christians seem to think or wish it was, well frankly, they'd be doing everything fundamentalist Muslims in the ME do now. Only law helps prevent (though not entirely) religious sectarian violence from spreading uncontrollably.
But to the point, are you seriously going to argue Mr. Cook did NOT receive death threats, when PZ did? People have gotten death threats for far less than what Mr. Cook did. I can pretty much guarantee he's gotten at least a couple. That Mr. Cook doesn't have the kind of visiblity PZ does, does not change the liklihood of Mr. Cook having received them or not. Frankly, PZ's criticism likely brought over a bunch of the same powerless, angry, busy body idiots that were jumping all over Mr. Cook.
You continue to make PZ's point: That religion places undue deference on false icons and rituals, and makes otherwise normal people fairly well nuts if a certain object is criticised in any way. PZ did not make a "threat"; that you treat his disrespect of what truly is a cracker (it IS manufactured as such, and is such until it goes through the ceremony, according to the beliefs of the Catholic community) as a dire threat really speaks to how fragile the religious mind can be when it comes to someone who is frank in their deviance from religious traditions. If the body of Christ can be desecrated, how sacred is it really? How powerful ccould it possibly be, if a mere mortal has the power to single-0handedly reduce its value, tarnish it, etc.?
Answer that question.
If you answer it any other way than that it is in fact still divine, and truly unalterable by man once it has undergone the proper ritual, than nothing any single huan being does to the "consecrated body" would mean anything, because it is divine now, and beyond the power of mortals to ruin it. If you don't think this, then is follows that you really trhink your god, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, whoever, is not nearly as powerful as you claim he/she/it is. You cannot claim an unproveable being has universal power beyond imagination, and then argue that a man doing something to a cracker completely reduces the being's value, or in any way affects said being in a serious and negative way. You're trying to have it both ways.
The point is, you dseserve respect for thinking something different about the supposed afterlife, life in general, whatever. What you do not however get automatic respect for, and have no right to demand it for, are fairy tales that cannot be proven or studied, are untestable, do not appear to benefit mankind in any measureable way, etc. I do not have to respect that someone may think reality was created in 6 days by some being I haven't seen. You do however, have to respect things that can be proven to exist, or are real and can be observed, studied, etc.
Aug, atheism is not a religion. It is a lack thereof. Also, crackers ARE bread. Hard and crumbly bread. Like a communion wafer.
70% percent of Doctors believe in miracles - chicago
[citation needed]
>If you are so easily dissuaded from secularism then I have to question how committed you were.
I can say the same about those who left their religions because they saw bad examples there.
I regret being a secularist, the hatred here is proof that the secularism is the wrong way.
Jack PIcknell into the dungeon for Godbotting.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378081,00.html
puzzled is an appropriate name. Must be referring to the English language or maybe the whole concept of the intertubes.
@Puzzled: Goddamnit, Puzzled. THE INTERNET! USE IT! What a twat.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378081,00.html
(forgive me father for I have sinned and posted something from FOX...)
No, if it was indeed an atmospheric phenomenon then for the Catholic Church to take credit for it is fraud.
puzzled claimed he's an atheist but he calls a cracker a host.
I noticed puzzled has chosen to not repeat his lie and he hasn't defended his atheist claim.
It's obvious Mr. Puzzled is a liar, and it's obvious he's a Catholic.
Aug, we don't ask everyone to respect our beliefs. You can say whatever you want about atheism, just accept my right to argue back. If you think atheism or secularism is utter bullshit you just better have an argument to back it up. We won't run and cry that you are mean to our cherished beliefs. We will just prove you wrong, and we may not be very nice while doing it because we've heard all the arguments before. There haven't been original arguments for theism in centuries.
Also, crackers are bread too.
You mean aside from the news article titled "College Student Gets Death Threats for Smuggling 'Body of Christ'"
Webster Cook says he received death threats and eternal damnation after he removed a wafer of bread from his mouth during communion and smuggled it from the church in a Ziploc bag.
Hmm? Wait let me guess now you are going to call him a liar even though you have been exposed as a liar here.
Posted by: puzzled
Google and ye shall find:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,378081,00.html
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/148476/woman_fired_over_d…
Is there an assumption among the religious that atheists were once religious? What about those of us who never had a religion, and who never believed in a god?
And hey, it's BREAD, not crackers..
Really? I thought it was supposed literally to be the flesh and blood of our lord and savior, holy of holies, precious beyond compare.
As Moses pointed out, for a bunch of dogmatists, cracker worshippers seem a mite divided over what is actually at stake here.
A common ploy used by the flood of religites since crackergate hit the intertubes, is that PZ is acting immaturely and rebelliously. Mr. (I refused to refer to him as father as I already have one) J, especially and repeatedly offered this feeble explanation. Mr. J does realize that PZ is 50ish?
Rigid, blinkered, dogmatically authoritarian people adore hurling the juvenile label when their authority is justifiably challenged. Also, Mr. J, was fond of referring to PZ as being indecent. Indecent is one of those words that are descriptive per the parameters of the user. My parameters says that Mr. J is indecent, with his patronizing, flimsy appeal to blind/dogmatic authority and to what he consider comprises civility. Give me a honest, non-civil person any day over the likes of puffed up, stuffed with inanity and crazy beliefs people like Mr. J.
Mr. J types are exhibiting their clueless state when they think that it is mere rebellion with which they are dealing. They are dealing instead with very determined, well educated, insightful, courageous people who have decided that it is finally the time to challenge religious beliefs consistently and without abating. No more respect for religious beliefs--just respect for the right to have religious beliefs.
And I want to repeat what a high opinion I do have of PZ--he is a funny, smart, and brave fellow. As Dawkins says of him, an hero for our times.
Uh no. For the thousandth time, atheism is not a religion. And no one ever asked you to respect my beliefs. I wouldn't expect something so unrealistic.
Oh the irony. Bread is fermented, crackers are not. But I like the forceful tone you used, really shows off your ignorance.
The abusive, insulting, vulgar responses these atheists post is certain proof of the validity of these scriptures.
Here forward, if anyone I know is tempted to adopt atheism, I will direct them to the comments of this blog to demonstrate the organic outcome of such belief.
El Herring #451, that's a lot like something in Terry Pratchett's Pyramids:
As I said, good luck with your theocracy. I assume you will be happy taking orders from whichever religious leader gets put in charge, because of course you will not have a say in it. Authoritarian dictatorships, be they run by theists or atheists are not normally very pleasant.
Theists alwways run to the "atheism is a religion too!" excuse when they're getting pwned. They can't explain why the lack of religion is a religion, probably because that's an oxymoron grammatically, and a complete paradox logically.
It really is looking for the closest available thing to throw when they run to that one.
quoted from http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08072309.html
"But the curious thing is that [Dr. Myers] cannot rest with mere verbal blasphemies. He has to get a host in his hands and destroy it with a savage glee that, curiously, places him not among scientists but among the most magical-thinking Bronze Age fanatics."
Oh, and isn't it interesting that when a Prof in Iowa State University was found to have a bible on her desk, she is fired immediately, whereas, Prof. Myers will not be subject to any disciplinary action from UMM even if he has expressed clear disrespect to other's belief both in words and in action?
Michelle wrote
"Sigh. Okay look, first your name isn't very common so telling a guy to not sign his full title cuz it's not careful is the same as me saying to not sign your name because there isn't a load of Rayven Alandrias around. Not that I think that this other guy or you are in any threat.
Second... Don't go the "You might get killed by the side that disagrees" alley. You sound smart, you should be above such paranoia. It doesn't work that way. There are killers everywhere, and killers are INSANE. Their religious allegiance does not matter. There are murdering christians, there are murdering muslims, there are murdering atheists, there are murdering jews, there are murdering raelians. Insanity, lack of morals... they have nothing to do with what your faith or lack of faith is. It's social."
___________________
Do you seriously think Rayven Alandria is my real name? Although I do use it quite a lot, it is not my legal name. Very few people know my real name.
Although you are correct, there are insane people everywhere, they are more likely to be religious than not. I have no doubt there are a few crazy Atheists. My point was that although I don't think he has anything to fear about posting his name here, he should be more responsible in the future.
Whether you like it or not, most of the whackos he might run across who would do him harm would be of the religious persuasion. Do a little research into the prevalence of religious belief in the mentally ill.
Here's an interesting parallel in today's news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080724/od_nm/model_flag_dc_1
A Peruvian model posed nude on a horse using a flag as a saddle. Like Webster Cook there was no disrespect intended (initially) but she is now facing a possible 4 year prison term for disrespecting a symbol.
Oh yes. That's the kind of reaction that really deserves our respect (NOT)!
Just one suggestion, read this: http://www.zenit.org/article-12933?l=english or http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
Dahan (message 429) You accused me of not responding to your question as well. But I did in message 138, I just did not feel like telling you that. But I will repost it here now so we do not have to hear you ask the same question again again.
--------------------------------------
Dahan from Message #81: You are wrong on your assumption about me disbelieving in Hindu miracle claims. And how do additional miracles bolster the atheist's argument of No God anyway? Hindu glass cows exuding milk. I believe it, and I believe it is supernatural. Another one drinking milk. I believe it to be supernatural. Other supernatural manifestations from the Islam or Buddhist faiths. I believe them that they are supernatural. I am not looking for crazy improbable "natural" answers to try to explain them away..
I am of strong belief most of these "hard-to-explain-away" well documented manifestations of any faith, or no faith, are either of God or are diabolic. I will not offer an opinion on most if they are diabolic or not, such as those in the Hindu faith. Actually, I will. I am guessing they are godly directing the believers towards some virtue.
I do not believe the Christian faith is the true faith because of the miracles I have put forth. I believe that is but one important ingredient. So much more is necessary to validate which faith is the true faith. The magnanimous degree of the manifestation carries weight. Even more so does the very detailed message and the fruits of the event. Beyond miracles, is what else does the faith claim and have to offer? The historical record. The charity of the faith. The incomparable saints. So and so on. Far more is required, agreed. I just cannot go into all that right now, but that is actually the greater reason why I accept Christianity as the fullest and most truthful of God's message. The miracles assist in validating it for me, not in demonstrating it's main importance or message.
Sidenote: If there ever were any so-called UFO appartions that really took place and were seen by humans --- those I believe to be demonic apparitions in order to deceive those more readily open to decption. You know that funny looking red guy with a pitchfork? Just a cartoon to you of course.
Posted by: Turzovka | July 24, 2008 11:10 AM
Steph... people don't "adopt" atheism. They just stop believing in whatever they believed before, assuming that they believed in something before.
"I regret being a secularist, the hatred here is proof that the secularism is the wrong way."
Right. Because a theocracy or authoritarian state just sounds like a much more appealing option. Well feel free to move to one of those. Let me know in two weeks how it's going. I suggest moving to one where you'll be an oppressed minority, just to get the full effect.
You intentionally confuse criticism with hate, another symptom of religious thinking. Secularism is what allows you to live peacefully with your worldview amongst others that don't share it. It's pretty obvious you don't really know the definition of secularism, you just ate what someone told you about it.
>As I said, good luck with your theocracy
I'm not supporting a theocracy. I'm merely voicing my disgust at how PEOPLE are being treated simply for having a different viewpoint.
Dehumanizing is what is being done when, simply for disagreeing, one is demonized and treated like dirt.
Thanks again, for giving more reasons. Your knee-jerk fear of authority outside of the self is not reasonable. Science is still one, no need to be afraid of it.
And, oh...MX. If what PZ claims to have was an unconsecrated host (just a "cracker"), instead of a consecrated one (the body of Christ), then no descration could have taken place according to the Catholic Church. He claimed he'd "descrate" a "conscrated communion wafer", though.
So, PZ has cornered himself with and has no way "out" as you point out. We shall wait with bated breath to see how he proves he has done was he claims in writing. Scientific publishing 101.
Please do! Hopefully unlike you they might read the rest of the posts and discussions on this blog which are usually lively, informative, funny and quite friendly.
#462...as I said earlier, if it was strange atmospheric phenomena that took place at Fatima, it's still awfully strange that it occurred at the exact place and the exact time that a miracle was predicted by the children.
And, let's be clear, the phenomenon was strange enough that it hasn't been classed into any existing category of known atmospheric phenomena. Plus, there are details of the ground suddenly being completely dry which don't fit into that classification.
TS: PEOPLE are not being mistreated. Symbols are.
Thank you Andrés Diplotti, I'm a big Pratchett fan. I wonder what he'd make of all this nonsense. I'm sure he's already aware of it, he's quite internet-savvy. I wouldn't put it past him to be anonymously posting here already.
I'd recommend Pratchett's book Small Gods too, for everyone here, whatever your beliefs.
Michelle #461
It's all right, my child. Puzzled will be more likely to accept Fox, the home of the rabidly Catholic Bill O'Reilly, than most other sources. Now go and sin no more.
Chicago? Dave? Turzovka?
Hello?
Yep. A deafening silence. That's what we hear from all these christians when asked why we should believe in their miracles more than anyone else's. It never ceases to amaze me that otherwise rational people would believe batshit crazy claims from one group, but not another, just because mommy and daddy brought them up to believe in the one.
Time to grow up and think for yourself. Time to realize that you've been had. There's no shame in it. Many of us here were at one time too.
I disagree. PZ is a socially conscious scientist, exactly what we need.
I call BS.
>Secularism is what allows you to live peacefully with your worldview amongst others that don't share it.
What peace? What I see here is a professor who shows contempt for people who don't share his holy viewpoint? How he is he different from the relgionists you rail against?
If he were truly at peace, he wouldn't have to dehumanize others by pulling some moronic stunt - and ASKING FOR ATTENTION while doing it!
Dave Mueller@452
I have read the wikipedia article. Completely inconclusive in any direction, but the most likely explanation is the combination of a vague prophecy of a miracle, a suggestible crowd, and possibly (but by no means necessarily) an unusual meteorological phenomenon - followed by susbsequent hyping of the story for ideological and monetary gain.
Palmira cited a specific book, «Fátima nunca mais», by a Portuguese Catholic priest. (This was Fr. Mario de Oliviera.) So why has this Portuguese Catholic priest remained unconvinced?
CJO @#379:
Thanks for what may have been the most generous compliment within your capacity to pay me. :-)
You seem to be a bit off both on my motives and the thrust of my case. I chose "desacrilized" rather than "secular" not because I "can't bring myself to say" secular, but because for my purposes "desacrilized" was more precise. "Secular" as you are using I take to have legal or constitutional significance (separation of church and state and all that); "desacrilized" as I was using it was a socio-cultural term, denoting a generalized atrophy of the sense of the sacred.
Where on earth did you get the notion I had any brief regarding "force of law"? Haven't said one word about it. What I said is that PZ's actions are "just plain incivil, and should be generally recognized by civil people as socially unacceptable." Is that any clearer?
Not a cartoon; a convenient apologetic. Lessee, miracles that confirm one's faith: evidence of God. Miracles that don't: evidence of the devil AKA evidence for God.
It's a damn shame that your brain was so molested as a child by these purveyors of lies, but did it ever occur to you to break the cycle?
Sidenote: You really should look into the history of the devil in Christianity before you go spouting off your 'knowledge' if him. Then again, we already know how you deal with inconvenient information: The DEVIL did it!
Logic: just a word to you of course.
Well if you are not supporting a theocracy you are certainly demanding that the rights of most religious and non-religious people be curtailed.
A secular society is one which religion does not play a role in public life. In such a society if you wish to advance a policy you cannot get away with saying that it is your religious belief. A secular society also does not prevent people from practising their religion, although it may well stop them from imposing their religiously based moral views on others. You do not want that, so that does suggest you think religious freedom should be curtailed for some, and that the religious morals of one group be imposed on everyone.
That sure sounds like a theocracy to me. Have you never heard of the Enlightenment ? The idea that evidence and reason should be used to decide how we are governed ?
>TS: PEOPLE are not being mistreated. Symbols are.
That's nonsense. Look at the contempt he is showering on the people who dare to disagree with him. He dehumanizes anyone who disagrees with him.
Feel free to defend dehumanization. I won't join you.
TS, I'm not sure that you know what "dehumanize" means.
Dahan (#489),
If you can read English respond with one of these. ;)
Because I have posted to your question twice now. The one you think is some smoking gun. Read it (#138) and (#479)digest it. Then give us your expert opinion why God is a joke or Catholics are or communion is or whatever else it is that makes you puff up like a peacock.
Plus, there are details of the ground suddenly being completely dry which don't fit into that classification.
- Dave Mueller
What proof is there that that claim is true?