I'm always tickled and disturbed when I hear news about JZ Knight. Knight, as some of you may already know, is a New Age charlatan who claims to "channel" a 35,000 year old Atlantean warrior, and dispenses ludicrous advice in a growly voice and gets paid big bucks by the gullible. However, now one of her former students dared to turn around and use moldy wisdom she learned from a hokey old invisible friend, and fleece some rubes of her own. So what does Knight do? Sue, of course.
The only thing that could make the trial sillier is if the court put Ramtha on the witness stand.
Ooops, it's vanished from the Seattle Times site. Here it is:
Yelm channeler JZ Knight testified Tuesday she was so "disturbed" at reports that spiritual teacher Whitewind Weaver had "taken my school's teachings, changed them around a little and then started teaching them" that she authorized a lawsuit.
"It wasn't anything I wanted to do," Knight, founder of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment, said during a civil jury trial in Thurston County Superior Court. "We usually tend to assume people are impeccable."
But Weaver's attorney, Robert Kilborne, of San Diego, grilled Knight about why the channeler would sue when Weaver had been so supportive of her school.
Weaver, founder of Lacey-based Art of Life Coaching Inc., sent a letter to her students in Oregon telling them she was moving to Washington to study at the Ramtha school, urged the students to do the same and enrolled in more than $8,000 worth of classes, Kilborne said.
Knight, self-proclaimed channel of a 35,000-year-old male spirit warrior entity Ramtha, was the second witness in her case accusing Weaver of breach of contract in connection with a seminar Weaver taught in August 2006. Knight claims the seminar violated terms of a registration Weaver signed that says teachings at the Ramtha school are for the students' personal use only and cannot be disseminated for commercial gain.
Weaver's attorneys deny the allegations.
Seattle attorney David Spellman, representing Weaver, pummeled school administrator Mike Wright.
Knight's attorneys claim Weaver copied seven school processes, including Fieldwork, an exercise designed to improve ability to focus attention and intuition by finding a symbolic card on a fence while blindfolded.
"Is Pin the Tail on the Donkey focused attention?" Spellman asked Wright.
"It could be," Wright replied.
"So, then is it Fieldwork?" Spellman said.
"No, it's Pin the Tail on the Donkey," Wright said.
Knight, under direct examination by Tacoma attorney Rick Creatura, told the jury how Ramtha first appeared to her in 1977. In visits during the ensuing years, she said Ramtha used her body to speak at seminars, in books and on tapes around the world.
Kilborne, on cross-examination, was not impressed.
"Isn't it the flat truth that there is no Ramtha?" he asked.
"That is incorrect," said Knight, who hosted a conference of scientists at her school to investigate the Ramtha phenomenon. "And science proved in 1997 that Ramtha was not me."
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PZ, apparently the Seattle Times page has been removed or moved.
"Knight, as some of you may already know, is a New Age charlatan who claims to "channel" a 35,000 year old Atlantean warrior, and dispenses ludicrous advice in a growly voice and gets paid big bucks by the gullible.
Yeah, but Marlee Matlin is HOT!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499596/
She was also involved with that putrid "documentary" What the #!*! Do We Know!?
I was able to deduce the fakeness of Santa Claus at age 3 (caught my parents putting presents under the tree, and noticed that each indoor mall had its own "Santa"), so I'm continually boggled by the fact that adults fall for such nonsense.
Apparently this isn't the first time that Knight has sued someone.
Also see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399877/
And don't say anything bad about Stuart Hammeroff!
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/
I found the updated link:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008172528_bzknight11.h…
Thanny's reasoning (@ #3) is unsound! Sure, every shopping mall has its own Santa at Christmas time, so Mr. Claus certainly lacks the essential personal quality of uniqueness. That doesn't mean he doesn't exist. He exists too much!
I will further point out that Ramtha, on the other hand, is uniquely manifested through JZ Knight, which is a point in "his" favor. (And thanks to JZ's lawsuits, no one else better try to get a cut of the Ramtha action, thereby preserving her invention's uniqueness. [Oops! I said "invention"!])
This is one of those cases that makes me wish there were some way for both parties to lose.
"And science proved in 1997 that Ramtha was not me."
?
Well ... Hunk-Ra did serve as substitute juror on the OJ case.
... and if someone had put this episode into a novel, readers would have dismissed it as "unrealistic."
Huh, I thought Trudeau made up that story. Reality never ceases to surprise.
Hey, when the massive Red Chinese army that's massing in Mexico attacks, you'll wish you were in Knight's southern Washington state compound! *
* actual JZ Knight teaching.
These people are a bunch of posers. My spiritual guides can kick their spiritual guide's asses any day. Atlantis is so yesterday's news. Mine are extraterrestrials from a doomed planet that blew up.
Not going to divulge the secret name of the planet or all the ancient hi tech knowledge they have imparted. Unless you send me $50 and a stamped, self addressed envelope.
#14, If that planet's name is Krypton, I think I've already heard this story.
I don't quite see where Kilborne is going with his defense strategy. If it is "the flat truth that there is no Ramtha" -- if he is a literary creation (think Harry Potter) -- then perhaps Knight can copyright him. If Ramtha is a real entity (choose whatever demented sense of "real entity" you like), then it would appear that he has just decided to employ a new channel, or perhaps multiple channels, the better to have his wisdom widely disseminated. After all, we have only Knight's word for the claim that she was granted exclusive rights by Ramtha, and unless he committed himself to a contract binding in perpetuity (evidence?), he is always free to change his mind. The similarity of the teachings and teaching materials is hardly surprising; Ramtha is just propagating the same enlightenment techniques through both channels. Yes, of course Ramtha should testify, and through both channels, either serially or better yet through the two channels concurrently. This could be one of the rare juries that it would actually be fun to sit on!
I'd like to see how JZ Knight figured out Ramtha's place and time.
Did Ramtha try to estimate how high in the sky the Sun gets in daytime? Did he note some local quirks of geography, like distinctive rock formations? Did he note any of the local fauna? Like furry elephants :)
I always feel sorry for the judges who probably have to question whether they've made the right decisions in their lives when they hear cases like this.
I've tried to read past "Whitewind Weaver" three times. I just can't do it without falling out of my chair with laughter.
I wonder what a hokey atheist name would sound like? "Realworld Walker" maybe, or perhaps "Showmeda Proof".
The silly woo-woo thinks she has a copyright on flim-flam?
-jcr
Hmm.. An amusing scenario just came to mind. If I jumped into woo-woo business, and claimed that "ramtha" was talking to me, and that he told me that Knight was full of crap and was twisting his message, then in order to sue me Knight would have to claim that her imaginary friend was her creation, which necessarily admits that he's fictitious.
-jcr
Il was just editing and a change of URL, you can find the "original" here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008175111_webjzknight1…
JCR: that strategy could be of use here. If Weaver's attorney claims that Ramtha, as a spiritual being, cannot be copyrighted and has manifested himself in a new person (I guess it depends on exactly what the copyright is, but how can Knight claim copyright to a spirit except as fiction?), then the judge could get Weaver to channel Ramtha in front of the court, and either Knight would have to channel back, getting into a Ramtha on Ramtha fight, or admit her con.
Look, why don't they just get one of those Christians with a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ to ask Him if He will find out from Ramtha himself whether or not he's been talking to Whitewind Weaver even after he said he was Knight's BFF? This stuff should have been learned in Junior High.
I think the next step is Catholics suing Protestants for claiming to have the endorsement of Christ when He already made a firm commitment and contract through the Apostle Paul to represent the Catholic Church exclusively. They won't sue Jesus, of course. That would be silly.
Whirled Musings always keeps tabs on these kinds of woo stories if anyone's interested. Nothing about this so far, but I know she's written about Ramtha in the past.
Peter. Rome is the vicar of Peter. Well, they were until the East broke with them and they didn't have to keep up the charade anymore - then it suddenly "Vicar of Christ".
Wrapped Around Your Finger
You consider me a young apprentice
Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis.
Hypnotized by you if I should linger
Staring at the ring around your finger.
I have only come here seeking knowledge,
Things they would not teach me of in college.
I can see the destiny you sold
turn into a shining band of gold.
And I'll be wrapped around your finger.
And I'll be wrapped around your finger.
Mephistopheles is not your name,
I know what you're up to just the same.
I will listen hard to your tuition,
You will see it come to it's fruition.
And I'll be wrapped around your finger.
And I'll be wrapped around your finger.
Devil on the deep blue sea behind me
Vanish in the air you'll never find me.
I will turn your face to alabaster,
When you find your servant is your master.
And you'll be wrapped around my finger.
Oops, "...devil and the deep..." obviously. Sting forgive me.
Sili #26
You're right. I was sloppy, and ended up robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Nemo #8 -
Word.
Why can't the judge just declare they're both trying to peddle irrational fairy tales and thereby refuse to hear the case? I'm not a lawyer, so I'd appreciate if one were to explain how these charlatans can waste the court's time like this.
No worries, I thought as much. I was just engaging in an attempt at atheist courtship dance showing off.
You must admit, it's rather rude
To use another's made-up dude.
When I consult my spirit guide
(It's Maker's Mark) it says they lied.
Don't forget that JZ's schtick has been officially declared a religion by the IRS and others.
Having lived in the Yelm community for almost two decades, I can safely say that JZ is a kook and her followers are even sillier. However, they are the kind of freaks that are nice to have around if one must have freaks of any kind. They do not peddle their wares to your front door unlike many other established religions. They pay their fair share of taxes. They have established many businesses in the Yelm area that contribute to the community. JZ herself contributes scholarships to the local high school. When they get drunk during one of their ceremonies(?), they all stay on the Messiah Ranch instead of driving drunk on the road or otherwise becoming a menace. All-in-all, I'd rather have JZ then the Baptists. Give me Ramtha instead of evangelicals anyday. They may be idiots but at least they keep it to themselves.
Billy Daniels??? I'm Billy Daniels!!! Is that your real name? Where did you grow up?
I've always liked Calvin Trillan's crack about JZ and Ramtha: "One of them has a blue Rolls-Royce."
I think these people are really just on the payroll for of TV writer-producers of legal shows like "Boston Legal."
I wonder if there is any signficance to Ramtha being an anagram of Martha.
"Hmm.. An amusing scenario just came to mind. If I jumped into woo-woo business, and claimed that "ramtha" was talking to me, and that he told me that Knight was full of crap and was twisting his message, then in order to sue me Knight would have to claim that her imaginary friend was her creation, which necessarily admits that he's fictitious."
What we really need, and now, is a RAMTHA ARMY.
Tony Curtis voice: I'm Ramtha.
Some guy in the crowd: No, I'm Ramtha.
Another guy: I'm Ramtha...
Yet another guy: I'm Ramtha...
Another couple of guys: I'm Ramtha...
The guys by the rocks: I'm Ramtha...
The crew by the fence: I'm Ramtha...
Everybody in the crowd: I'm Ramtha...
This could fly. Somebody see if Kirk Douglas can channel ancient warrior spirits. We'll do lunch.
Now if the judge could only just find them both guilty of a criminal offence and hand them both some jail time, that would be justice.
Contempt of Court comes to mind.
"And two Ramthas."
:: HONK! ::
"Make that THREE Ramthas."
PZ, you post the most fascinating stuff! Thank you.
I AM RAMTHIA, RAMTHA'S GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER! I will listen to all your petty problems, cheap. HOWEVER, I DEMAND TAX FREE STATUS!
Delusion, oh my wiggly, spaghetti monster, why do people fall for these nutters? I had forgotten all about this woman and her con.
Speaking of suing over vapor, the first poster in the "Talk:PNAS Response to Letter" page at the inimitable Conservapedia says,
Delicious! You must tell me, PZ, where we scientists are to get all of this vast wealth! I've yet to see any of it.
PNAS seems to have handled the whole Lenski affair quite as we suspected (and hoped) they would. Cheers, all.
Wow. And they get on Trial Lawyers for being litigious.
I'd love them to sue more often. All the settlements for lawyer's fees laid against them would make me happy.
And in another case of litigious craziness, fired bible-wielding, creationist teaching, student-branding teacher John Freshwater has filed a countersuit: http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-09…
I know of a physics teacher who shows "What the bleep" in class and quotes it as a source.
At #3 Thanny wrote:
I was able to deduce the fakeness of Santa Claus at age 3 (caught my parents putting presents under the tree, and noticed that each indoor mall had its own "Santa"), so I'm continually boggled by the fact that adults fall for such nonsense.
I don't see how the fact that each indoor mall has its own Santa proves Santa is fake. After all, consider: each and every Catholic Church has Jesus in it.
And he's edible.
At #7 Zeno wrote:
Thanny's reasoning (@ #3) is unsound! Sure, every shopping mall has its own Santa at Christmas time, so Mr. Claus certainly lacks the essential personal quality of uniqueness. That doesn't mean he doesn't exist. He exists too much!
Exactly! Kinda like god, who I've been told is "everywhere," although he mostly hangs out in the clouds.
At #21 John C. Randolph wrote:
If I jumped into woo-woo business, and claimed that "ramtha" was talking to me, and that he told me that Knight was full of crap and was twisting his message, then in order to sue me Knight would have to claim that her imaginary friend was her creation, which necessarily admits that he's fictitious.
Which is basically why True Christians© detest Mormons, but don't sue them.
Anyone knows the story behind this sentence :
"And science proved in 1997 that Ramtha was not me." ?
What BS investigation is she referring to?
To #51:
She's mysteriously vague about who the scientists actually were. Id like to know if any REAL scientists have ever heard, or even knows, who these guys were. On her site, all it says is "twelve scholars - comprised of neuroscientists, psychologists, sociologists, and religious experts". Sounds suspiciously like her students with PhD's that made up the bulk of the What the Bleep film, doesn't it? It also says that these 12 apostles - er, I mean "scientists" - "categorically ruled out any possibility of conscious fakery, schizophrenia, or MPD."
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To #47: Not everything in the film is BS. Dr. Albert is someone who actually knows what he's talking about, and is someone who was somewhat misrepresented in the film. He has openly corrected those misrepresentations. You should look into what EACH person in the film said rather than discounting 100% out of hand just because the 60% (or whatever) that you did see was BS.