Literally. Bill Mutranowski of Atheist Cartoons sent me these drawings. Now you know where I get my black sense of humor: every morning I get up to look at that face in the mirror, and a fellow has got to laugh. And they all look exactly like me!
You can check out his collection of cartoons — this one was my favorite.
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I've started a religion of convenience in which dung beetles are worshiped. If anyone starts a meeting with a prayer, I join in by igniting a sacred cow pie (ritually dried and previously blessed, of course). It helps when you can join in and enhance the religious observances of your colleagues!
Unfortunately, we don't seem to open many of our meetings with prayer anymore.
ach. One of my professor's told me that "he likes to start class with a prayer". Admittedly, I go to a Jesuit school, but this has never happened to me before. I was really surprised. Talk about wasting class time.
On topic, I like the first portrait best.
I like the first drawing. Makes you look 'Carlinishly' wise.
I think this one is the best.
[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/Orlor/newtack.jpg[/IMG]
Anyway PZ, look on the bright side. You could wake up in the morning to my face.
Of all Mutranowski's cartoons I like this one best:
Deference
Starting things with feckin' prayers doesn't do any good, & this should be obvious to the religious nutjobs. At a recent international boxing contest, I watched Amir Khan pray to Allah immediately before the first bell. It didn't do him much good.
Breidis Prescott, a little-known Colombian, shattered Khan's illusions of grandeur in only 54 seconds at the MEN Arena, Manchester, on Saturday, handing the former Olympic silver medal-winner the type of knockout that will haunt him forever.
I guess it could've been that lots of Xians in Columbia prayed on behalf of Prescott to Jehovah, who's a more omnipotent god than that Allah god. I mean, the religiots do try to justify their beliefs, don't they?
PZ very nice likenesses!
I went and looked at that gentleman's cartoons. They're a riot. I of course had to save a few. I'll pass them on to the professor here at NIU who teaches the Evolution vs. Creationist Challenge course. He'll love 'em.
I wish he had made the atheist more forceful and less whimpy with the excuse of not being relgious and wanting a cup of coffee. How about, "When you're finished ranting crazy prayers, I'll be back to join you in the real world".
I like all four of the pics up there. The three cartoons, and the actual photograph (on the web page's left bar). I tend to see people first in terms of who and what they are, and that affects my impression of what they look like.
And you gotta admit, PZ's got a beautiful (handsome?) mind.
And they all look exactly like me!
So where are the extra arms? Tentacles? Horns? Roast babies on a split?
every morning I get up to look at that face in the mirror
The solution I sometimes use is to not look in the mirror. So yes, my bread does look like a hedgehog going down sideways, and my hair is sometimes what they named a bad day after, but at least I don't have to immediately return to bed to recover from the shock.
The one of living in "parallel universes" is good. The prayer to "Elvis" also, as he is the only human on the board!
Porky Pine @ 5
Did you choose your moniker from the character in Pogo?
Those drawings are nice, but he completely blew it on your hair. It's too neat. I mean, these are like "PZ Goes Someplace Important."
Holbach,
That would rather destroy the joke.
Holbach @ #9:
This way it's much funnier, since the atheist in question did absolutely NOTHING rude or confrontational and they still called him militant.
Holbach @ #9
I think the whole point is that the atheist is not being forceful or militant, but is still being accused of such by the chair of the meeting. The point would not have been made were the atheist more strident.
16 and 17
Point of view taken, but still a matter of interpretation on each viewer. It may have been presented as depicted, but I still offer my choice of interpretation.
all hilarious but the editor in me shouts "sepAration!, not sepEration!" (unless he's trying to imply that the speaker is a semi-literate wanker, in which case "BRILLIANT!")
Nice caricatures -- including the one of the "militant" atheist.
What would be a "non-militant" atheist? One who reinforces the belief that faith and religion are wonderful things which the atheist (unfortunately) lacks -- but they should be supported in others. A "non-militant" atheist would have participated in the prayer -- or, at least, looked on with smiling approval -- because nobody should ever be made to feel uncomfortable about their religious beliefs.
I think that view of "correct" atheist behavior sometimes comes from atheists themselves. Anything else is seen as too confrontational.
#20
I've never heard of such a thing.
What would be a "non-militant" atheist? One who reinforces the belief that faith and religion are wonderful things which the atheist (unfortunately) lacks -- but they should be supported in others.
The sick joke here is that this description apparently fits Karl Rove to a "T".
http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/04/28/is-karl-rove-an-atheist-what-does…
Love the comics...so on point.
Holbach, Sili, Uncephalized, xander...
The cartoon is not so funny precisely because the cup of coffee guy is really being a militant fundatheist. Can't you see he didn't frame properly?
"We don't examine our beliefs, we don't admit to error, and we don't care what you think."
'Bout says it all.
Excuse an ignorant question from Europe, but....start a meeting with a prayer? WTF? Are there nutbags in the US actually doing this?
Also, as someone who would describe himself as a "non-militant atheist," (as in not strident in proclaiming my non-belief) I subscribe to Heinlein (paraphrasing), I paint my bellybutton blue when called for. When I visit my religious family, I see no reason to incite vehemence or hostility by declaring there is no god. When the family bows their heads in prayer, I bow my head in silence. What profit is there, to me, is confronting them? The best I can hope for is vehemence and vitriol. I will not subject my very religious 84 year old mother to such.
Charles Tye.. trust me, there are a lot of things about this country you really don't want to know. You'll sleep better that way.
All across the country. It's a frequent point lawsuits and such. Our local school board in sort of in a long term controversy about it.
Btw, my first post was referencing one of the cartoons, not atheist beliefs, just to make myself clear.
So...when your family bows in foolish obeisance to a nonexistent deity, does it incite vehemence and hostility in you? Apparently not. So why do hold the other members of your family in such low regard that you are confident that they are intolerant jerks? Hmmm. Why does the consideration for others always only flow from the rationalists to the people with lunatic beliefs?Here's where it profits you. It would enlighten people you love, help change their attitudes, and maybe lead to greater tolerance for people who think like you.If that doesn't matter to you, though, go ahead: cower in silence. There are others who will speak up for you.
my family knows full well about my atheism so when they decide to pray (which is rare and usually only because of my catholic brother in law starting it) I tend to make sure I'm still in the kitchen preparing dinner or I just don't bow my head. I don't see any point in interrupting them. They know my opinion but I never bow my head at any prayer, anywhere.
Rev.BigDumbChimp,Kot @ 32
Good man.
Three things. 1)wow, I got a response from PZ. I am honored.
2) You may have missed my last sentence. I will NOT subject my 84 year old mother to such a debate. She is already frail and knows my stance on the matter. I choose not to upset her at family gatherings. After she passes, or when she is not around, I gladly and with a will, debate my siblings (all 8 of them, plus numerous offspring from them) on the topic. I usually lose (hence my name, I can never recall the good arguments).
3)No, it does not incite vehemence and hostility in me. I am a tolerant person. Therefore, as I said, I paint my bellybutton blue when required (read that, when Mom is present). I see no profit to be gained in upsetting the thoroughly ingrained. If I see a grain of doubt in a family member (as I have) I bring that member aside and try to give them what knowledge I can. I can only say I have brought one mind in my large family to the light of reason. But I think that is an honorable thing in a large catholic family.
Thank you for illustrating precisely the kind of meek deference that's gotten us into the situation portrayed in the cartoon. It's exactly that sort of control over our behavior that religious people revel in and exploit.
In my case, my father's family doesn't just say grace at holiday meals, they sing it. I've neither sung nor bowed my head since I was a child, and I'd say that's true of about half of my relatives in my generation. To be honest, we still usually (immaturely, perhaps, but the kids get the message) smirk and roll our eyes at one another while the others sing. It's on it's way out, I think, but it wouldn't be if we had been going along all these years.
I think you've included the answer in your question there - albeit not in a way the lunatics would like to admit. Only the rationalists are capable of genuine consideration and tolerance. So if it's going to happen at all, there's only one possible direction for it. The lunatics merely have fake versions of these things - and many of their number are given to fits of violence. Of course lots of the lesser lunatics are still more than dishonest enough to abuse the position of power their traditional lunatic camouflage has given them.
This is all very well known. Hence "I suggest a new strategy, Artoo: let the Wookie win." The other option is of course to call the bluff of any of the lunatics who aren't immediately threatening death etc to the rationalist and not simply let any lunatics/wookies who have even remotely credible pretensions to being civilised win that way.
PZ @ 31
I think you err PZ, in thinking the religious will change their attitudes, and maybe lead to greater tolerance for people who think like us. They know without reservations that we are wrong to disbelieve, and this attitude will always color their opinion of atheists. In the same sense, will the religious honor our disbelief and forgo the prayer when we are present? I doubt it, for an irrational belief seems to be stronger and more entrenched than the absence of belief. If they did not pray before eating, would they choke on their food, or would that very food lose it's inherent taste which prayer purports to bestow. The act is as senseless as the transforming cracker and this fact should be honestly conveyed to the participants in keeping with the atheists disavowal of all irrational beliefs and rituals.
@SC 35
OK. My family is one of the most religious families you could ever meet (not Westover fanatics, true "Do unto others" catholics). And I defy you to descry (is that the right word) the morality of "do unto others". I just find it polite to follow the family rituals at supper. I won't convert most of them; I won't try. They will not be informed. I accept this. This is not SPARTA! I will not fight against the overwhelming forces. My family tolerates me, does not preach over me. I see no reason to "preach" over them
People who pray before meals are showing off how holy they are. I doubt they really believe their Magic Man is listening (unless they're even more wacko than I think they are).
Fortunately I haven't had to experience this lunacy for many decades. Today I might ask people who pray in front of me what's wrong with them, but I probably wouldn't bother with it if there was a very old lady present. Old people should be respected no matter how crazy their delusions are. But perhaps it's fair to say it's not being respectful to an old person if you think they can't handle alternative viewpoints.
Last year a very good friend of mine died. I went to his funeral mass, along with about fifty or sixty other people. I kneeled, stood up, and sat down when everyone else did. I didn't say any prayers but I did shake the hands of those people (all of whom I knew) around me.
Recently I went to the wedding of the daughter of another friend. It was a Mormon ceremony. Unlike the Catholics, the Mormons stay seated during their ritual.
I was at both services because I was showing respect and friendship towards two people who mean something to me. It would have been disrespectful and unfriendly to show vehemence and hostility. I could have stayed away, but that would also have been disrespectful and unfriendly.
Excuse me, but I don't see how not engaging in an act of base submission to a nonexistent deity is the same as preaching or attempting to convert. Same goes for simply acknowledging your nonbelief. Your family does not tolerate you if they expect you to join in their rituals despite your lack of belief and to hide your own beliefs in their presence. They are not practicing what they are preahing if what they are preaching is "do unto others."
You still haven't responded to PZ's point about this respect only going in one direction, or to mine about how this expectation of polite deference is really a form of social control, which you are meeting with cowardice and a hopeless attitude. If you see your own family members not as people themselves capable of tolerance or rational thought but as disembodied "overwhelming forces," then there's no possibility of progress being made.
IgnorantAtheist:
You are making two mistakes here. First, you're setting up a false dichotomy between "browbeating them" and "participating in their rituals." What's wrong with simply doing your own thing in silence? If they'd take offense to that, they don't really "do unto others," do they?
Second, you've swallowed the manipulative fiction that "polite" is the antonym of "assertive" hook, line, and sinker.
Three mistakes, actually. The way you're responding here suggests some degree of displacement of resentment.
Standing up and sitting down is one thing. Never, ever will I kneel or bow my head, which I consider gestures of submission and of recognition of the existence of a deity. I wouldn't even consider it. Didn't do it at my grandfather's funeral mass, never did it at any of my cousins' weddings, and will never do it at any event. I'm willing to attend these ceremonies in their church and listen to men preaching offensive nonsense; they can damn well respect my lack of belief or submission.
I'm simply amazed at how simply not participating in such rituals can be construed as showing "vehemence and hostility." There's a lot of truth in that cartoon.
OK, this respect is going in only one direction. This polite deference is going in the direction of my 84 year old mother. It is a moral decision. I do not want to hurt her by exhibiting my disbelief. How is this polite deference morally wrong? She is strong in her beliefs, she is close to death. How is bringing up my disbelief going to comfort her? How will it make her death easier? Remember she is a strong believer in jebus.
@Holbach #13
No. It was a nickname for a D&D character I had that kept getting pelted with arrows.
Because it's insulting to treat a grown adult like a spoiled, sensitive child?
In fear of a troll ban (and I'm getting too drunk to continue this great debate); I applaud the crackergate, I demand free debate of ideas. I also believe in Heinlein's concept of painting your naval blue (look it up if you don't get it). Sometimes, not always, it affords you to bend like the willow.
Well, in your earlier post you didn't speak only of your mother but of your family: "What profit is there, to me, is confronting them?" This implied to me that you would engage in this behavior even if your mother weren't there (I'm sorry to hear of her condition, by the way). It seems people often bring up these extreme examples and dramatic scenarios ("Should I shout 'You're an idiot!' to my grandmother on her deathbed?!") to justify larger patterns of deference in situations that are nowhere near as extreme. To be brutally honest, unless you just became an atheist, you've reached this point with your mother because you spent years going along and being afraid to rock the boat, which I find very sad. I understand the fears that were behind this, believe me, but I consider it regrettable rather than a pattern of behavior to be celebrated as moral and proper while implying that those who are fighting so you don't have to do it are immoral and rude.
I can offer my own experience in contrast. When I was a teenager, I "came out" as an atheist. It caused a big row, especially with my mother, that I remember clearly to this day. Last year, my mother asked if she could read God Is Not Great after I was done with it. I was surprised and a bit worried about her response, but this turned out to be the secular version of "Amen, brother." She also has good friends who are atheists. I don't think of anyone as beyond changing beliefs, or at the very least tolerating the fact that I don't share them and won't act as though I do.
My heart goes out to you and your family.
That's the way it should be. Mothers are sacred. They must be respected no matter what their age is. Also, old people must be respected. Nothing could possibly be more important than respecting old people.
Ah - I see that our posts have crossed. You've done well for a drunken person (I'm impressed :)), and I think this is an important conversation to have. Perhaps another time.
Charles Tye @26:
Yes, there are a lot of nut bags in the US doing this. Almost 535, just going by these links. :^(
http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm
http://chaplain.house.gov/
I think there's a line to be drawn here. When at religious friends houses, when they pray before a meal, I simply sit quietly until they've finished. I don't bow my head in deference and i don't participate. It would be a different situation if I were asked to pray with them. Then I would be compelled to explain that I don't share their superstition.
Similarly, in the public forum, I would have no problem with religion if people simply practiced their religion in the privacy of their own homes and churches. The conflict comes when they attempt to compel others to conform to their particular brand of belief. We all know where that leads. I absolutely respect peoples right to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, just don't ask me to play along.
Azkyroth and SC
Three things:
1) This is my last response tonight, I am too drunk for anymore good repartee'
2) Azkyroth, how is showing respect for my mother browbeating? I'm just being polite. It doesn't hurt me to bow my head while she prays. If she notices I haven't, it doesn't hurt me, it will hurt her.
3) SC, When, as a family member, I am required to sit in the front rows (an immediate family member's marriage or funeral), I consider it polite to follow the rituals of the congregation. I feel no loss of face from doing so. I am respecting the rituals of another culture (will you refuse to bow to an asian because western culture does not recognize it?). This is what I was referring to when I spoke of Heinlein's painting the naval(sp) blue. (Was it navel or naval. I can never remember)
And now I am too drunk to type a sentence in less than 2 minutes. I will review your responses when I wake up about 20 hours from now (I have to go to work then, call it 26), but wow, I actually got a response from PZ. OK, he called me an idjit, but that's OK. The Maste
Last Friday, I almost made a scene at work when the dedication of our new Life-Science building where I work included a benediction by a priest. he was babbling about the creation of god and how we scientist were discovering that creation to find cures for diseases etc. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
I didn't call you an idjit. I do suggest that you are unthinkingly deferring to an unacceptable belief, and that atheists in general are often so accustomed to being browbeaten that we don't even try to stand up for good ideas.
That doesn't mean you should be cruel to your mother. It does mean that you should respect her enough to be honest with her -- it's the only way you might find out that you can get along happily without all this one-sided compromise (note: when you do all the giving and get no concessions in return, that isn't even a compromise.)
You've simply reasserted your original point and added nothing to it. Perhaps you can respond to my/our comments concerning this when you return.
I'll leave the flaws in this analogy aside for the moment. I would possibly do a little bow if it is the equivalent of a handshake (i.e., both parties are doing the same thing). I would not perform any gestures that are gender-specific or a show of deference to someone's alleged status. Just as I don't show submission to supernatural authorities, neither do I intend to show it to other people. I'll admit that I'm not always perfect in this regard. Being raised as a woman can make some behaviors hard habits to break. Even if I reject them intellectually, they're still sometimes automatic, and I constantly fight this. Alas.
Put more bluntly, just because she's 84 doesn't mean she has an excuse to not see reality.
I am all for blindsiding old people with facts. Some 70-year-old guy once called me something heinous which I will not repeat here because I was wearing my scarlet A shirt, and had I not needed to go somewhere, I would have given him a volley of profanity-laced eloquently constructed angry responses in return.
What's "respectful" about treating a person like they're mentally and/or emotionally incompetent to deal with the truth? That's not "respectful," it's patronizing. If your mother really is so immature and unreasonable, you're not doing her any favors by catering to that. If she isn't that immature and unreasonable, you're being incredibly insulting by implying she is, by playing along - like a parent indulging a small child by getting down on the floor to visually confirm that there's no monster under the bed.
(I mentioned browbeating because I charitably assumed that you were setting up a false dichotomy between playing along on one hand, and actively haranguing your family about the incredibility of their beliefs on the other, and suggested that you could instead just quietly opt out. Apparently you've drunk so much of the "assertivness is rude" kool-aid that you consider that tantamount to browbeating.)
Context is an important issue. If I am a guest at someone's house, and they pray, I sit silent and wait. If it is at my house, and I am the host, I determine what happens, and that means no christian prayers. For public events, I think it is a scandal that prayers are done before meetings, at dedications of a LIFE SCIENCE building, and any other public event possible, unless it is a religious event to start with. So, in private context, the hosts determines, and in public context, no religious dogma should be allowed to dominate!
When you think about it, religion is a useless system of adding on. Imaginary gods are added to one's life, rituals are added to sustain that irrational belief, paper is needlessly wasted to print the established rules and regulations, hymnals, religious tracts, picture images and the enormous wasted paper to print nonsense screeds. Time is added on to kneel in houses of insanity which has to alot more time to do the necessary things if that time was not wasted on such nonsense, more traffic is generated on each religion's holy days, funerals tie up traffic after leaving churches, all manner of religious decorations at christmas are added to a town's expense, clutter up the place, and draw unnecessay crowds to gape and draw more clogging traffic. It is pointless to go on about the addition of religion in our society to demonstrate it's utter uselessness and deleterious effects. as we can all give noted examples.
And yet atheism is mostly subtracting those nonsensical things that religion is prone to. We don't add imaginary gods, stupid rituals, proclaiming nonsense in public praying, when paper is used to publish articles on atheism and it's great progenitor, science, it benefits are tangible and of immense importance, not only to rational people, but in a trickle down way as in the necessity of science, to the religion strickened as well.
What a waste of time and lives needlessly has religion fostered over the centuries all by a system of irrational addition to nothing. I for one, am glad to be a subtractor in this sense, and yet adding more to my life in the process.
Ignorant Atheist is referring to what I call "Thanksgiving Table Diplomacy" (or, to be more global, "Dinner Table Diplomacy.") There, politics, religion, and controversy are simply off limits, because the point is to enjoy a nice meal together and get along with no fighting. If Uncle Marty spouts off about the war or whatever the hell stupid opinion he spouts off about, just say "have some more gravy, Uncle Marty" and that's that. There's nothing wrong with Dinner Table Diplomacy -- as long as you're conscientiously just being polite, and not trying to "pass" by seeming to agree with good old Uncle Marty.
But I've noticed that a lot of people seem to think that when it comes to atheism, the entire world should be considered a Great Big Giant Thanksgiving Dinner Table. Everyone is a potential Uncle Marty, or Aunt Edna, or dear sweet old grandmother who needs to be jollied along. In forums where it would be perfectly fine -- even required -- to argue politics, or economics, or whatever, it's NOT okay to argue religion -- particularly if you're an atheist. Sometimes only if you're an atheist.
I have no problem with Ignorant Atheist, who knows his mother best, deciding that in just some cases he will 'blend in' with the religious in order to avoid causing her pain. He's not lying, and telling her he's going to church, or actually praying. She knows his real views.
But, as the cartoon illustrates, this very special, particular, personal decision is supposed to spill over into the rest of society and guide all atheists. Atheists who fail to "blend" in with the religious are accused of being aggressive with their non-belief.
Several times, the issue has come to a head for me when there is an unexpected prayer circle. "Let us join hands." Uh-oh. Sometimes what follows is secular, but usually not. And now the lack of participation is noticeable.
I hate the custom of joining hands to pray. I realize it's not the intention -- they've probably no idea that everyone else in the room isn't Christian -- but it's as if they've decided to spotlight and highlight differences, and MAKE the atheist look unfriendly. Everyone else is in the circle of love, and there you are, breaking the chain. Excluded by your own meanness.
Prayer circles. Suck.
//Excuse an ignorant question from Europe, but....start a meeting with a prayer? WTF? Are there nutbags in the US actually doing this?//
I zapped through the Sports channels last night,and they were praying before a goddamn NASCAR race ! So yes,they are actually doing this,and there is a culture somehow(US guys may correct me if im wrong)that if you have a public event and no prayer is offered before it ,that you will be criticized or get into trouble.
//This polite deference is going in the direction of my 84 year old mother//
To be perfectly honest,I can not see the point in upsetting a frail old lady by dragging her into a debate about atheism,there is nothing to be won there,and its not where the frontline of the fight against religious insanity lies,AFAIK.I dont partake in any submission rituals on public occasions like weddings or funerals,havent been seen in a church for 30 years,and regularly incense the middle-eastern collegues of mine at work by having those debates with them,I do it with friends and relatives all the time.I ridicule,and confront,and Pharyngula has helped me to sharpen my tools over the years.
Oh,and my fav cartoon in this absolutely wonderful series,is the "getup in the morning" one,hilarious.
navel = bellybutton
naval = pertaining to the navy
At Christmas I exchange Christmas cards with coworkers. I usually get 20 or so and post them on my office door. Usually about a third of the cards are religious themed. These get put on the door with the others. It would be rude not to put them up. Incidentally the couple of Hanukkah cards that go on the door are always religious.
OK, really my last comment tonight. I have never been the focus of a forum conversation (even to this light extent). I am overwhelmed and can only hope to respond to a few comments b4 PZ comes up with another great thread (OK, I'm copping out, I admit it). I only have a narrow thread between sober and drunk when I can discuss these topics. I have passed that line. When I get sober again, I won't care about this thread. So, until next time pharyngulites, it's been fun.
P.S. I think I've followed the few thread rules. I really am an atheist. I just don't agree with you, PZ, on your extremist tactics. I think a more moderate, slow teaching, of our philosophies would be more economical in forwarding our views. Yes, it takes longer, but I think it would be more effective.
Katherine @ 57
Good to see you dispensing some logical comments here.
You would think that a person who has reached old age would somehow finally realize that what she was taught as a child should no longer be accepted as still a fact, but in having all those years to come to a rational decision by discarding such childish nonsense.
That old adage that wisdom comes with age is rendered untrue and endlessly sad. To think that old people will die with never having attained the authentic wisdom to think with intelligence and experienced years. So sad.
Well said Sastra, there's really nothing more than can be added to that at all
Sastra,thank you for saying what needed to be said. There would be no point in trying to debate my entire family in a very sensitive subject matter when we only gather once a year to enjoy the company of our each other and socialize. After dinner I can go talk to whomever I want to, but I would rather not disturb the peace of the dinner table for no foreseeable gain. I am not going to convert anybody by loudly resisting a quick prayer before we eat and it does me no harm. We can pick our battlefields better than this.
Again, the reference in the earlier post was to the family as a whole - "them" - and simply not bowing one's head and pretending to pray was equated with shouting about how there are no gods or something. Where are you reading that she knows his (her?) real views? I thought the point was that Ignorant Atheist doesn't want her to know his/her real views. Otherwise, it seems you're basically agreeing with what I was saying @ #48.
I think there's something wrong with engaging in rituals of submission. I also have a problem with 'Dinner Table Diplomacy' as you describe it. If "politics, religion, and controversy are simply off limits, because the point is to enjoy a nice meal together and get along with no fighting," then why is Uncle Marty allowed to "[spout] off about the war or whatever the hell stupid opinion he spouts off about," while you have to "just say 'have some more gravy, Uncle Marty' and that's that"? This gives bullies and blowhards license to continue to act this way. You may not change them, but you should stand up to them.
I.A., you've just drunkenly stumbled into the land of "gimme a good reason." If you think your view would be more effective at forwarding the views of atheists, you first have to reconcile yourself with history, which isn't favorable to your view by the way. (The meek rarely advance their agenda forcefully enough to gain recognition.) And then you'd have to show that currently less people are effected when forced to deal with a naturalistic worldview, than when a naturalistic worldview is quietly offered to the select few who may openly show themselves curious about it.
That question would seem to be already answered by the glaring fact that up until these uppity atheists started writing forthright books did atheism become a common topic in the public forum. Notice that this was not the case when atheists were deferential and polite.
And remember to take some tylenol before you sleep and drink lots of water!
Actually that's exactly the intention in many cases. This is why conservatives are so fond of public prayer and especially school prayer. It's not about protecting the rights of the religious; it's about forcing the non-religious to either declare themselves or knuckle under.
That said, I agree that Ignorant Atheist is in a far better position than we are to judge his own family dynamic and decide how to behave in that context.
Gah! How is not pretending to pray "loud"? This is exactly where our battlefields should be! We can talk as much as we want on the internet. If we can't even not go along with a religious ritual or "come out" among our families, we have a very long way to go. This is not about converting anyone. It's about being able to be who we are openly, and to treat other people as reasonable adults. The idea that open declarations of nonbelief or the refusal to show reverence for these silly, demeaning, and often offensive beliefs and rituals are "extremist" is sad commentary on the current state of affairs.
"BATTLEFIELDS?"
That is bloody pathetic.
That's what I never understood. I remember as a teenager we had religious relatives come and stay with us, my Dad (who is an atheist) made me and my brother join in on prayer. I didn't get why then and I still don't get why now. How is it respectful to pretend to pray? It seems disrespectful to their beliefs to join in the ritual when I don't believe myself. To let them pray on their own seems a far more respectful gesture...
I'm all for telling religious people they should grow up and stop believing in childish ideas like a magic sky fairy hiding in the clouds. Also, I refuse to enter a church for any reason, and I refuse to participate in any religious ceremony.
There has been only once when I made an exception and threw out my militant atheism, and I'm glad I did. I never kept my atheism a secret from my mother (but I wish I was more gentle about announcing it). Many decades later when she got cancer and was dying, I told my very religious mother I was no longer an atheist. I was lying but I made a desperate person feel better. It was worth it.
Charles Tye asked a good question:
You can't imagine how insane most Americans are. I don't see much difference between our large fundie population and the Muslim terrorists. Both groups are equally dangerous.
Somebody already mentioned our shit-for-brains politicians who are constantly showing off how holy (retarded) they are. Recently in Indiana (one of our more backward states) the legislature there was actually singing about Jebus, proving beyond any doubt the breathtaking stupidity of Americans.
I have been fortunate to have never worked for a theocratic company, but I have heard stories about praying before business meetings. What a pathetic country I live in.
Sastra @ 61
I would not regard it as being excluded by your meaness, but being intimidated by the majority who show meaness in placing you in such a position knowing your attitude to the ritual. It's a situation that will be uncomfortable to the majority, but more demeaning to the atheist whose ideals are called to the fore and force him to make a decision that will lead to placation or contempt, for himself or his agitators.
Sastra | September 14, 2008 3:14 PM #20
'What would be a "non-militant" atheist? One who reinforces the belief that faith and religion are wonderful things which the atheist (unfortunately) lacks -- but they should be supported in others.'
Hmmm, do you then call an atheist a "militant" if he doesn't believe that religion is a wonderful thing and that his atheism is something as unfortunate as myopia or color-blindness?
This seems like a quite extraordinary suggestion to me.
In a family situation, things might be awkward, but I don't see why the atheists cannot simply show up after grace. It isn't "militant" to refrain from granting a beaming approval that one may not feel.
Having said that, the boot is on the other foot here. About the only people who pray much in London are Muslims. One guy was praying behind the counter when I entered one day. Now this is an elaborate process if you're a Muslim and it takes some considerable time, too. I just politely went into a corner of the shop and looked at some of his merchandise while he got on with it. Was that militant behavior too, or should I have looked on, beaming with sanctimonious approval while he prayed to a God that I do not believe exists?
My idiocy was forced on me as a child by a grandfather that terrorized children and browbeat my parents. He imagined himself as a patriarch to rival Abraham. When the old bastard finally died I was already well trained.
The family get togethers are awful! Some parts of the family are fanatics. My recent rows with them have caused them to officially shun me. Fortunately my parents no longer believe. Simply sitting quietly while others do the woo usually works at a church funeral or wedding. I'm to the bone polite to old people unless they start something, so I sympathize with Ignorant Atheist, but I'll be damned *rolls eyes* if I'll ever bow my head or kneel again for anyone.
Tony,@ 76 :
//One guy was praying behind the counter when I entered one day. Now this is an elaborate process if you're a Muslim and it takes some considerable time, too. I just politely went into a corner of the shop and looked at some of his merchandise while he got on with it//
Well,if some one thinks that praying is more important tham serving customers,if it was me,I'd leave the store.
BTW,I perfectly get the cartoon,and its message is so true,the whole "militant" tag is just ludicrous,and that needs to be pointed out to those smug pompous fools,that disagreeing and not sharing some bronze age ritual is not militant,that is however totally different from upsetting your dying granny.
Greetings!
My apologies on something that may be considered insensitive, but if someone, regardless of age, gender, or relation to me is willing to cause a scene over my non-participation in a ritual I do not accept as truth, *they* are being unreasonable.
Not me.
My mother no more has justification to confront me for *not* bowing my head than I do to confront her for bowing hers. She's just as free to ignore (or at least not attach great drama to) me not bowing my head as I am to ignore (etc.) her bowing hers. I am respectful enough of my mother to believe she should realize this.
And respectful enough of her fairness and intelligence to accept this should it need to be pointed out to her.
clinteas | September 14, 2008 9:19 PM #78
"Well,if some one thinks that praying is more important tham serving customers,if it was me,I'd leave the store."
Yes, of course, I would have left the shop if I'd been in a hurry.
"BTW,I perfectly get the cartoon,and its message is so true,the whole "militant" tag is just ludicrous,and that needs to be pointed out to those smug pompous fools,that disagreeing and not sharing some bronze age ritual is not militant,that is however totally different from upsetting your dying granny."
Yes. The cartoon shows a guy who is polite to the point of being sheepish about his foibles, which makes the response all the more unexpected.
Nobody to my knowledge has yet commented on the sheer presumption, the bald brass neck of the Chairman who blithely suggests starting a meeting with a prayer.
Has that ever happened to anybody reading this? What if it did happen at your workplace?
It's never happened at my workplace, but I'm in a rather secular environment. If somebody did try to pull such a stunt on me, though, I'd have an excellent excuse to skip a meeting, and I would embrace the opportunity gladly.
Patricia @ 77
Feels good, eh Patricia?
You know, it's a tricky situation with old people who are still in religion's grip and appear to have given up in thinking otherwise. I have an old friend, who is 84, a retired librarian, not very religious, and was at her house for dinner last month. She was reading Sam Harris's "The End Of Faith" and was quite impressed with it. She has never prayed when we have dinner, and I believe she never does. We were talking about several things, and I mentioned that you she was not very religious, but she said that she still believed in a god. We delved deeper, and she said that she was still seeking answers and has still not found them yet. I mentioned that she has been seeking answers for a long time and she said that she'll have to keep on searching. I was not going to get in a heated discussion with her in her house and eating her dinner, so we just let it end. What bugs me is that if she has not found the answers throughout all her years, she is not going to find them now and it is a sad state to die still searching for something that does not exist. It is hard to extrapolate this way of thinking to my definitive atheistic certitude. It is only a very small percentage of reasonable people who come to their senses and turn away from religion. I pass a catholic church near where I live, and always there are elderly people walking toward it to propitiate an imaginary thing to take them soon for their reward. It is so pathetic that every time I go by, I mutter under my breath,"going to talk to your god?" It is sad, and yet I feel no pity for they are old enough to know better and will not change.
SC #68 wrote:
I was assuming she did know -- and that his restraint wasn't directed towards the family in general -- because of Ignorant Atheist's post #34:
SC wrote:
Because it's Dinner Table Diplomacy. You don't have to be diplomatic. You're allowed to decide otherwise, and fight back. It's not diplomatic, but what the hell. Not everyone wants (or even likes) peaceful family get-togethers. Some do.
Tony Sidaway #76 wrote:
No, I don't -- I was being sarcastic, and agreeing with the comic. The label "militant" gets slapped onto atheists for behavior that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in other contexts.
I'm not off-base here, am I? In the UK it definitely would be presumptuous to expect that your colleagues at work shared your religion, and it would be rather impolite to suggest prayer in a situation like that. The US, I don't know. It's really a very different culture despite the similarities of language.
Speaking of different cultures, I only just heard about the fuss over Russell Brand at MTV's Video Music Awards last week. Having looked at his act, it is my impression that he toned his in-your-face routine down several notches for the live ceremony, but he still managed to get the more excitable end of the blogosphere screaming.
All very good for his US career at this stage, I'm sure. Now everybody under the age of twenty knows who he is, and that their parents hate him. ;)
From what I saw, Brand's comments were pretty much the comments any British person might make. The "retarded cowboy" comment is only marginally over-the-top, and the idea of pop stars wearing a ring to say that they're not doing what pop stars do seems quite absurd.
What's weird is that, despite being able to see the Excited States out my living room window, Canada is far more like the U.K. than the U.S. in this regard. It's not that people aren't religious, here -- the majority are, but it's generally considered extremely tacky to exhibit any overt signs of one's beliefs in the workplace.
So all you oppressed militant atheists to the South should consider moving up here. If you hurry, you can vote against our Conservatives, instead! ;)
Tony Sidaway #85 wrote:
I'm not sure, but I think that one of the strange results of American individualism applied to religion is the belief that knowledge and understanding of God is not something taught by communities and churches, but something personally known by everyone in their hearts -- or, maybe, in the gut. That's a very popular assumption.
In which case, you should indeed EXPECT your colleagues at work to share your religion (or "spirituality.") They would have to know God in their hearts, too, just like you do.
As far as the person praying is concerned, prayer to God is uniting everyone. It's just that some people have distorted the true vision of God, and filter Him through a faulty other religion (instead of just letting God be God, like they do.) And, of course, some folks suppress what they know, or deny it. Public prayer is supposed to jolt them back to their senses, as they watch the sweet, honest faith in action, and their pride is humbled, and they feel guilty.
At least, from what I've read and seen that may be one motivation. For several years I used to help man an atheist booth at the State Fair, and so many, many people came up to me, smiling and telling me that I really did believe: if I would only look carefully within, I would see I did.
I've no idea if this "knowing in the gut" thing is uniquely or particularly American, or what. But I think the blithe common cultural assumption that "there really are no atheists" may make those who pray in public have no qualms on rudeness.
Ah. OK. But then it just seems even stranger in some ways.
It isn't at all peaceful for those who have to listen silently to Uncle Marty's (racist, sexist, right-wing, religious,...) bullshit, though. Even thinking about the situation gets my blood pressure up. No justice, no peace. :) (By the way, I saw a documentary several years ago about strippers in California who had formed a union. Picketing outside the strip club, they were chanting and carrying signs that read "No Justice, No Piece!")
I just want to be clear: Are you saying you would pretend to pray in order to be diplomatic?
This, incidentally, struck me as rather contradictory:
IA @ #47: "I applaud the crackergate"
IA @ #64: "I just don't agree with you, PZ, on your extremist tactics."
But expecting clarity or consistency from IA in that state would be asking too much, I guess.
When I was a child, my mother banned religion from being discussed at the dinner table and would often insist on us saying grace before eating. It wasn't until she died that I found out that she was an atheist. She had insisted that we act like little christians at the dinner table because she was terrified that her mother would find out that we were all godless heathens.
SC #89 wrote:
No. No way -- though many years ago I did, because I thought it was "polite. Nor do I hold hands in a prayer circle (which really bothers the liberal "spiritual" folk, who pride themselves on being so ecumenical and seem to think I should just translate their vague spirituality-speak into secular equivalents of love and beauty so I can join in.)
I'd sit quietly, though, looking around to see if anyone is 'peeking,' -- and wouldn't use grace before eating as a catapult to a debate over the existence of God. Of course, my own family, even the extended family of Catholics, are not in-your-face on religion.
Ignorant Atheist seems to go further than I do, in that he bows his head. In deference to a very old, sickly, mom he doesn't think wants to deal with it. It's his judgment call.
Some of you may not realize what 'shunning' is. When it is officially called for by your church in some sects, you are already considered in hell. The entire congregation participates in a mock trial of your sins, and then you are ritually cast out. If Ignorant Atheists elderly mother is a member of one of those sects it would be a horrible ordeal for her. Popping off at a family dinner about atheism, in some cases, could be enough to get the ball rolling. American fundies are batshit crazy.
So fear of being left out of her will has nothing to do with it?
Well if by "popping off" you mean excusing yourself from the table for a minute, that seems reasonable and I don't see what the problem is.
If by "popping off" you mean launching an attack on religion, well obviously that's a very hostile thing to do at a mealtime. People should let one another enjoy the meal.
Years ago I decide on thanksgiving table and ritual (weddings, funerals and the like) diplomacy. I just sit there, but don't join in. Funny how nobody ever asked me to say the grace for the holiday. Religion was never discussed much, but the Redhead and I must have been giving off atheist vibes. I don't tolerate prayers anyplace else.
Again, it seems strange. If the mom knows that he's an atheist and hasn't shunned him, she would seem capable of accepting that he's a "practicing" atheist, as it were...
Anyway, the problem, as we both noted above, is that IA's comments weren't entirely clear about whether this was solely a protective gesture toward an ailing parent or a more general statement about the level of deference that is correct to show toward religion in general.
IA @ #38:
IA @ #53:
Even if I think IA should treat his mother with kindness and gentleness, I won't accept these broader statements, or their underlying implication that refusing to submit to these rituals or openly declaring one's own lack of belief, because they are called impolite by the religious, are somehow wrong, while meekly going along is taking some kind of moral high ground. I think it's necessary to respond to these arguments.
shonny @ 93 wrote :
//So fear of being left out of her will has nothing to do with it?//
WTF?? For goodness sakes,leave the guy alone !
Give him some time to find arguments to use in debates with the religious(he admitted to being "ignorant",.i.e not very good yet at arguing),and let him make his own decisions as whether to be diplomatic at the dinner table or not.
Tony there are table police among the fundies. Not bowing your head or closing your eyes is enough to set off a major screaming rant of denunciation in my family. In my husbands family even that isn't enough. Amens & glory! are required at every meal. Holding hands, rocking and chanting at the table are required at Christmas. Praise Jesus! for every gift opened, even if the tag says "From auntie Pat".
Sorry to everyone elsewhere in the world that just ran out of the room to vomit.
IA's family is Catholic. Also, IA says that "After she passes, or when she is not around, I gladly and with a will, debate my siblings (all 8 of them, plus numerous offspring from them) on the topic" (feels creepy even to be discussing this), so it doesn't seem that this is a major source of fear in this case. Given this willingness, the other more general arguments about "politeness" and "do unto others," in addition to the other problems with them, seem strangely inconsistent.
#93 - shonny - Oh, for crying out loud. That's really over the top. The man loves his mom. Quit.
Ok,something totally OT to lighten up a lil,I just spilled my coffee after seeing this ,John Cleese has found the God Gene :
http://funkwarehouse.com/jcpods/john_cleese_podcast_32.mp4
I think Sastra and Patricia are making sense. It is a matter of personal preference. Ignorant Atheist knows his mother best and if she is like my mother was would rather pretend that all is right with her son than find out for sure and be devastated. My mother always preferred to ignore a problem than face it. If I had forced her to see the truth it would have hurt her terribly.
Besides, if you think about it rationally, what one does, believes or says means nothing in the long run because we are all dead people walking. The only reason we care at all is because we don't want to be inflicted with the damage that will surely follow a theocracy. Short of that, at a family dinner, it matters not.
If you can't see the big picture then maybe you haven't worked it all out for yourselves yet.
BTW, after my mom died, I told my religious Dad to shut up and keep his insulting comments to himself and haven't spoken to him in over 6 months. I may never. I have no respect for him nor his beliefs. However, I always indulge my 100 year old believing grandma. She, unlike my father, has always treated me with kindness and I choose to do the same to her.
I understand Ignorant Atheist completely and am stone cold sober.
What fun is that?
Patricia | September 14, 2008 11:34 PM #99
"Tony there are table police among the fundies. Not bowing your head or closing your eyes is enough to set off a major screaming rant of denunciation in my family."
Well you know how to handle your family. Have you considered screaming back? It might work.
"In my husbands family even that isn't enough. Amens & glory! are required at every meal. Holding hands, rocking and chanting at the table are required at Christmas. Praise Jesus! for every gift opened, even if the tag says "From auntie Pat".
Sorry to everyone elsewhere in the world that just ran out of the room to vomit."
Those people are obviously insane. Somebody mentioned shunning. How about doing something that would cause them to shun you? Then you'll be free of them.
#100 - SC - Well 'dang me', I missed him saying they are catholics.
At all of the catholic funerals and weddings I've ever been to, they have just looked at me when I didn't rise, kneel or answer back the chant, like ehh - must be a baptist hellbound friend of the party involved.
What has amazed me over the years is that except for the old ladies, I am always the only one dressed in a black dress and wearing a black hat and veil like Jackie O. That's my funeral suit, and I always wear it no matter what. Now that I am an atheist, it's rather amazing to witness the incredible deference I get for showing up in church in full mourning. This doesn't cost me anything, nor does it profit the church. Another case of childhood indoctrination. I was taught this is the proper thing to do.
Wow is this a touchy subject!
Tony - I am shunned.
Tony Sidaway, Yes, indeed this has happened to me, many times. I attended a public high school in Salt Lake City, and school assemblies were often opened by a prayer delivered by the local Mormon bishop. Every high school had a Mormon religious school adjacent to the school, and students were dismissed from public school to attend an hour of religious indoctrination. The school cooperated with the church in setting up the kids schedules so that it was an integral part of their day, just like math or history, and their grades were reported on their public school report cards.
Posted by: Azdak | September 15, 2008 12:25 AM
"I... am stone cold sober.
What fun is that?"
Well, it isn't much fun being sober while discussing the stupidities of fundamentalism but if I did drink the fundies would all still be there in the morning when I sobered up. Drinking is kinda like prayer in that it makes you feel better to a point but doesn't do a damn thing to improve the situation. But if I had to choose between bowing my head and having a micro brew I would choose the later.
Enkidu | September 15, 2008 12:41 AM #108
Of course our religious customs are different in the UK. I was sent to publicly funded Catholic schools (obviously not something that could happen in the US) and was taught my religion daily, and we prayed several times a day. Sometimes we attended church services together, too, as a school. On May Day, we'd take a statue of Mary and parade around the school grounds with it held shoulder high while we sang hymns in her honor--which must have amused the neighbors, many of whom as protestants and obviously didn't agree with this pecularly Catholic kind of idolatry.
It was through a Catholic school that I learned my catechism and made my first confession and my first communion.
Some of the teachers insisted on praying before their lesson, and of course we'd all have to join in. Towards the end, when I'd renounced Catholicism, this became a bit of a drudge and some of us were rather rebellious, but the teachers were flexible and handled that well--it wasn't unexpected for boys in their late teens to rebel.
The thing that strikes me about my childhood and religious upbringing was that there was never a hint of the anti-intellectualism that seems to be so distressingly common amongst these latterday American evangelicals.
"To be perfectly honest,I can not see the point in upsetting a frail old lady by dragging her into a debate about atheism"
If you simply sit quietly rather than joining in a prayer, and the "frail old lady" who already knows you're an atheist chooses to make a stink about it rather than let it pass, who is dragging who into a debate?
IA can handle the situation any way he wants, but let's be honest in how we describe it.
I've found many a brew has helped get through watching docos on fundamentalism, it really takes the edge off. Yes, in the morning I'm sober and the fundies are still moronic. But the alcohol helps me to study the fundies without going off the handle. It's just too painful to watch otherwise.
I never watch any fundie docos,or youtube vids of twitching churchgoers,i just cant stomach it,and it drives me to despair over mankind.
@ 111 :
//If you simply sit quietly rather than joining in a prayer, and the "frail old lady" who already knows you're an atheist chooses to make a stink about it rather than let it pass, who is dragging who into a debate?//
But that what not the scenario.
...prayer circles...
I have to admit, I'd probably vomit.
OTOH, if someone suggested "a prayer", it might be kinda fun to take out some maracas, a tambourine, or some similar noisemaker, and with a loud guttural chant, dance around in a ridiculous parody of the 19th century notion of a "savage", then look at their stunned and bewildered faces and say, "What? Wrong god?"
How about a good recording of O Fortuna? :-D
Ive changed my mind as to what my fav cartoon is,definetely the Maternity ward one !
BTW,currently on SBS (Australia) : Palin and the speaking-in-tongue church thing.....If only the US had media worth the name !
Way to ignore a substantial portion of the thread, and to simplify others' arguments.
This doesn't dignify a response. Are you sure you're sober?
Right. Because our private lives have nothing to do with the sort of society we live in, and, not being able to not bow our heads or come out as atheists among people who supposedly love us, we're definitely gonna be fighting hard in the public sphere (except, of course, if there's a chance that our family might see or find out, of course...). Also, I certainly want more than to not live in a theocracy - a society guided by reason and evidence, for example.
Right back at ya.
I understand Ignorant Atheist completely
And if you had read my responses to IA, you would know that I do, too. There's a difference between understanding and sympathizing with someone and agreeing with him or her.
Katharine@#57
I really think this attitude is counterproductive. His church probably teaches him that atheists are hateful foulmouthed people, and there you go confirming that stereotype. Better to give him a sweet smile, and a few kind (if somewhat condescending) words about "love thy neighbor". When I read de-conversion stories, one element I often see that triggered someone's doubts was that they discovered that non-believers were not at all like the church said they were. If the church was lying about that, maybe they were lying about other things as well. One of our best weapons is shattering their preconceptions of us. So please lay off the profanity, thank you.
@112
I think you're channelling Houseman:
IA, when your mother is gone you might regret not having shared your true feelings. Likewise, you might be surprised by her response (or maybe not). I think it's worth finding out these things before it's too late.
I'm simply pointing out that you are overlooking the fact that we are dealing with relationships and when we, as atheists, meet the religious we are not obligated to, then and there, fight the good fight and let the turkey get cold. Get some perspective please. Some of these fundies get so caught up in their beliefs that they can't ever be reached with a reasonable thought. Some are very nice people; they are simply deluded nice people. If I throw away or destroy a relationship just because of a belief or lack thereof, then I have made my views more important than the relationship. Who's screwed in the head now? Deluded on the right and lacks perspective on the left.
I meant that we are all going to die (I'm sure you figured that out) but more importantly, our civilization will end, our sun will burn out and there will be no memorial to commemorate it. All will be oblivion. Why fuck up the only thing that makes life worth living. We are social animals. Life is about being with others and interacting with them. It's about discovery and invention and using our minds. It's about activity and movement. But mostly it's about doing all this with others and for others. I will not shit on my relationship with my grandmother because she is deluded about religion. I will, and have told my father to go away because he has not earned a relationship with me and I tire of his constant braying about God. See the difference. Ono loved one gets a pass and the other gets the axe. It's all about the relationship. But ultimately it matters not because we are going to die. I'm sober, what are you drinking that you think what you know has any ultimate value?
Think of religion as a mental illness. You aren't going to argue anorexia out of a person but you can still fund research to try to cure it. Likewise, confronting people at the dinner table is likely not going to do much other than make the gathering miserable but you can tell Uncle Bill to lay off the sermon during diner. My mother would get physically ill when thinking about the eternal damnation of her son. I would rather let her die deluded rather than change her mind.
Let's not delude ourselves into making integrity a part of the issue. You don't get extra points for holding true to what you know to be true. Just because Uncle Jack wants to pray before dinner doesn't mean that you have to object any more than if Grandpa tells the same asinine story for the nth time. Both are babblings and not worth attention. Are you going to scold grandpa for boring everyone? No, you just sit there and marvel at the stupid. They have other redeeming traits that make it worth the while to spend time with them. But, if one of them starts spouting about creationism or divine healing or prosperity gospel later on, then you have a right to give your opinion. I've done that a lot and they still invite me back because we soon learn to keep the topics on things that none of us are offended by. Except my Dad who will never learn so I refuse to talk to him even about the weather.
The big picture is how religion affects our society and the world and not about holding true to the principle of fighting for the truth at every perceived slight. Relax; this is a long fight that will last, perhaps, as long as there are humans. Don't ruin dinner over it and don't make it an us versus them matter. I just got through e-mailing a school friend who encouraged me to vote McCain because Palin was against abortion. I hammered the shit out of him until he mentioned that he just lost his 2 year old grandson who had suddenly died while in his sleep. I don't know the details but I reached out to him and told him that this debate was minor in comparison to his pain. I did link the Jonathan Haidt article http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html about morality and Dems and Repubs to help him see that we all have a moral sense but some place more emphasis on authority, loyalty and sanctity while others (liberals) focus on suffering and fairness/equality. This pleased him and he agreed to read the article and told me we were too good of friends to worry about offending each other and that I could fire away. I told him to prepare to get schooled on evolution. See, I didn't let up but I knew enough about our friendship to keep the kindness in the equation and not concern myself with only the issues. We'll see how it goes but that's how I'm choosing to deal with these issues in my private and public dealings.
As far as I can tell, it is uniquely American. Perhaps you'll find some Muslims who believe something similar, though.
LOL! Best version of "fiat iustitia et pereat mundus" Ive seen yet. :-)
Wow. That's a great way to put it!