And now, while I'm off to class…

I think I spotted Todd Louiso, aka Dick from "High Fidelity," aka Chad from "Jerry Maguire." You know, the guy who loves jazz? Come on, please tell me someone else saw that movie and wasn't THAT annoyed.

*lol*

That must be exactly how anti-choicers think women behave re: abortion.

And that's certainly the way anti-choicers regard rape.

Goodness, I love Amanda Palmer. Goddess divine.

More Happy Music?

Sorry, abb3w. This is the message I got.

The URL contained a malformed video ID.

Ah, Amanda Palmer on Pharyngula. One of the oddest things which has ever happened to me on the Internet happened as a result of her performing this torchy little number.

A friend of mine who was casually acquainted with the Dresden Dolls insists that I met both Brian and Amanda at a party a few years ago, but it must have been an awesome party, because I don't remember a whit of it.

I've just finished listening to Shostakovich's 5th symphony on the stereo in my office, conducted by his son Maxim. Just what kind of criticism of "The Oasis Music Video" do you expect from me? It'd be like comparing modern academic philosophy with religion, or haute cuisine with ordure.

Note to self: don't watch videos embedded in Pharyngula at work, even with headphones on.

Can't wait to get home and watch from the ten second mark to the end.

Janine, here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI

Mr. Harris@6: From an aging punk, piss off you old wanker. (Note: among punks, such banter is considered friendly joshing and should not be taken as an offensive attack, hugs and kisses to all.)

Wow. I agree, seeing Amanda Palmer on Pharyngula was a bit unexpected. Can't get enough of the Dresden Dolls, and her solo album is sorta like a DD b-sides record.

Thanks for the surprise,PZ. Never knew you had a decent taste in music.

Due to the song “making light of rape, religion and abortion”, it appears Amanda's having a bit of trouble getting this single and video aired.

Her latest blog entry:

http://blog.amandapalmer.net/post/75463717/on-abortion-rape-art-and-hum…

Man that sounds alot like the dresden dolls. Catchy tune though...

(sings to self) "when I got to the party, they gave me a 40, du du du dee dum, da melissa mahoney. some thin some thin...raped me."

Apparently many radio stations in London won't play this song.
Although BBC6 Music did, on the Stephen Merchant show. Stephen even had her on the show for a live gig.

"and her solo album is sorta like a DD b-sides record."

Love the solo record.

'Leeds United' has taken up permanent residence in my brain. I can't get rid of it.

+

"Due to the song “making light of rape, religion and abortion”, it appears Amanda's having a bit of trouble getting this single and video aired."

*sighs* I suppose the thought that it might be satirical never occurs to moral scolds.

Don't they grasp the difference between mocking rape/abortion/etc. and mocking attitudes or stereotypes about rape/abortion/etc.?

Uffda.

Don't they grasp the difference between mocking rape/abortion/etc. and mocking attitudes or stereotypes about rape/abortion/etc.?

Some of the outlets she listed in the UK may well understand the difference but, unfortunately, there is an ongoing campaign spearheaded by the right-wing media to suppress anything they might find vaguely offensive. This seems, worryingly, to be the current cause celebre...

Daily Mail readers, for instance, are probably more offended by the idea that somebody might produce a satire on the subject of rape than by actual rape itself. I'm fairly sure that they find any public treatment of the subject of rape, drama, satire, or academic to be distasteful.

Hmmm; punctuation malfunction.

"I'm fairly sure that they find any public treatment of the subject of rape - drama, satire, or academic - to be distasteful. "

Although, the first version was probably also correct - never has there been such a group of permanently offended malcontents....

Hmm... I guess at first I didn't quite get the message of the thing. I watched it a few times and realized that it wasn't really anti- or pro- either side, it was just... a statement on the subject. I can see why so many people are offended I guess. I'm sure many people don't give it enough thought to really understand what the contrast between the tone and subject is supposed to mean.

I guess it's not my sort of thing; I don't think the video is wrong, but I am a little more sensitive to the matter as I was in a relationship with someone who had this happen to her in the past.

But hey, you wanna know what's great? I don't have to watch it again but you can if you want! Yay for her right to sing about whatever she wants and yay for my right to listen to something else. Go America, free speech is awesome. (that isn't sarcastic despite how it might read)

I liked both the video and the song.

p.s. I like Shostakovich, although I prefer his 7th Symphony (particularly the "Invasion" first movement) to his 5th.

*hee*

Moar happy music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTOffYj5TxU ?

(warning: occasionally questionable language.)

I heard Amanda last week on the aforementioned Steve Merchant BBC 6music show, she also played a pretty awesome version of Radiohead's Creep.
I love songs with dark dark lyrics but really catchy tunes.

Agreed- there's no bigger crybabies and pant-wetters than your god/guns/country types. They get all twisted up inside anytime is thinking differently or having fun or being creative. All that stuff is like sunlight- and the sunlight burns!
Amanda Palmer is awesome- I'm seeing this clip all over. I hope the know nothings are beating themselves bloody trying to purge the sound out of their pin heads!

Amanda/Dresden Dolls have a couple of wonderful cover versions they play at live events, including "War Pigs"and "Eisbär.
Having seen many of those I can only recommend them.

"Daily Mail readers, for instance, are probably more offended by the idea that somebody might produce a satire on the subject of rape than by actual rape itself."

From what I know of Daily Mail types, anything that acknowledges rape actually does happen is offensive and wrong, because everyone knows women always lie about rape.

+++

"but I am a little more sensitive to the matter as I was in a relationship with someone who had this happen to her in the past."

Just for the record, I'm an erstwhile rape crisis center volunteer and PP clinic volunteer. The subject matter isn't one to joke about and I'm among those who speak up loud when they are mocked. But mocking the tired and stupid stereotypes the anti-choice misogynist crowd peddle is warranted and needed. And that's what I see in this - she's mocking the morons who think women treat abortion like a fun afternoon activity to squeeze in between celebrity obsessions.

In her blog post someone linked to, Palmer outright says its "irony".

#6: just once, I'd love to meet a classical music fan who acknowledges that his preferred choice of music is just an opinion, and he does not necessarily have objectively superior taste to those of us who choose not to waste our lives listening to deafening, maudlin, bombastic schlock.

This is why I love PZ!

Speaking of music... I've made a little of that myself:
http://www.box.net/shared/16vmbxot2g

Awesome.

I discovered her awhile back, and love pretty much everything she's done. Plus, she's working with Neil Gaiman and Ben Folds, so how much more awesome can it get than that?

I liked it but wish I could make out the words.

Wow, PZ is a Dresden Dolls fan too?! If you like this, you should definitely check out "Mandy goes to med school".
#15 Greg Laden: Hold kjeft! ;)

"And that's what I see in this - she's mocking the morons who think women treat abortion like a fun afternoon activity to squeeze in between celebrity obsessions."

I think it's interesting you see it that way. I started out unsure about the song, because so many people fear that women act this way. That being said, I knew some people who had a persona not too different than this and treated the things that happened with similar carelessness. I assume that this is because they have no way to cope, and no perspective on it yet. Hell, I was one of them.

I guess I took the song as a very dark joke about the sad truth about being a young female, but not so much a teardown of a stereotype. I like the song though. If you can't talk about something, you can't do anything about it.

Wow, Amanda Palmer in Pharyngula? Now the world is finally perfect.

"I guess I took the song as a very dark joke about the sad truth about being a young female, but not so much a teardown of a stereotype."

A good point and very possible.

Such didn't occur to me because, despite my background, I've never actually met someone who treated either situation lightly. But, you make a good point about coping skills - there is no universal way people behave, so there's no telling what might come about as a defense mechanism.

It's funny that Amanda Palmer appears between two posts about Ray Kurzweil. She often modifies the logo on her Kurzweil keyboard to a more appropriate homage.

http://ljplus.ru/img2/a/l/alex_ex/064_2005-06-11_16-35_the_dresden_doll…

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/103/288398744_1ddecb5337.jpg

# 25 #6: just once, I'd love to meet a classical music fan who acknowledges that his preferred choice of music is just an opinion, and he does not necessarily have objectively superior taste to those of us who choose not to waste our lives listening to deafening, maudlin, bombastic schlock.

WHY? (Like it would even happen.)

But #26, Richard Harris clearly wastes his life listening "deafening, maudlin, bombastic schlock." Didn't you hear him say he was listening to Shostakovich?

Fantastic bit of Amanda Palmer, btw, PZ.

#25: Nice to meet you. Deafening? Maudlin? Bombastic? You haven't listened to a lot of classical music, have you?

It's hard to say if any music is objectively superior, but certainly most classical music is considerably more thought-through, more complex and more sophisticated than most non-classical. Does that make it better? Depends on your taste, really.

"just once, I'd love to meet a classical music fan who acknowledges that his preferred choice of music is just an opinion, and he does not necessarily have objectively superior taste to those of us who choose not to waste our lives listening to deafening, maudlin, bombastic schlock."

Kina butting in, but ok... I will acknowledge that for you! I don't think it's a matter of superiority, but an appreciation for a different type of experience with music. That being said, what do you consider deafening, maudlin, and bombastic about classical music?

"I guess I took the song as a very dark joke about the sad truth about being a young female, but not so much a teardown of a stereotype."

Same here. How exactly do adults expect adolescents to react to situations that would make half of us shit our pants? Being raped and becoming pregnant as a result is not something that most, if any, 15-year-olds have the emotional maturity to deal with in a culture with such a prolonged adolescence.

I'd love to see a piece of classical music address this issue. What's that you say? Classical music can't? Oh. Well then, carry on.

I think that there are two main factors here.

Music has a social component, & we are social animals, so tastes in music are somewhat controlled by social contagion. There is some research that demonstrates this.

Music, like all Art, stimulates emotions. This is sub-conscious, so not necessarily obvious to our conscious thought processes, but nevertheless, generally acknowledged by people involved in consciousness studies & the role of art. I would contend that different genres of music tend to stimulate different ranges of emotional response.

Personally, I can't stand pop music, well, not anything post-dating Louis Armstrong. And I'm socially incompetent, & I think that these two things go together.

Oh wow:

Bad music, dumb lyrics, poor production quality, stupid costumes, awful makeup, horrible audio.....

Just what I needed.

"Personally, I can't stand pop music, well, not anything post-dating Louis Armstrong"

I'm sorry if I'm de-railing the conversation today, but I'm curious what you hate about contemporary music, and what you consider pop?

"Being raped and becoming pregnant as a result is not something that most, if any, 15-year-olds have the emotional maturity to deal with in a culture with such a prolonged adolescence. "

You know, I'm not really sure that being raped and becoming pregnant as a result is something I have the emotional maturity to deal with at 27.

One advantage that classical music has over other music is that it's already gone through the Sturgeon's Law sieve. Sturgeon's Law says "90% of everything is crap." Nowadays the classic music played was primarily composed by the three Bs, Mozart, Chopin, and folks like that. Ever hear of Francesco Gasparini? How about John Eccles? Nope, I didn't think so. They were contemporaries, both Baroque composers living in the late 16th-early 17th Centuries. Their work falls under Sturgeon's Law.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony is one of the high points of music. Beethoven's friend and fellow composer, Johann Nepomuk Hummel, is known nowadays only to music historians. Sturgeon's Law in action again.

There good music besides classical? Of course. Is there good music being written today? Again yes. However, Sturgeon's Law is still in effect. In a couple of hundred years, today's good stuff will be remembered. The bad stuff won't be known to anyone but historical specialists.

"just once, I'd love to meet a classical music fan who acknowledges that his preferred choice of music is just an opinion"

Bach is not an opinion. ;)

"who choose not to waste our lives listening to deafening, maudlin, bombastic schlock."

Well sometimes I wish people wouldn't lump "classical" music into a single genre. (How can perhaps 1400 years of musical development, spanning Gregorian Chant, Madrigals, Baroque Cantatas, Opera, Symphony, Concerto, Neo-Classicism, Serialism, Minimalism, and composers as diverse as Monteverdi, Berlioz, Elgar, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner and Stravinsky be considered one genre?). And perhaps realise that people who enjoy classical music perhaps don't enjoy all of it, especially not the stuff you could perhaps call "deafening", "maudlin", or "bombastic".

"Personally, I can't stand pop music, well, not anything post-dating Louis Armstrong. And I'm socially incompetent, & I think that these two things go together."

Hurrah! Why would I want to meet PEOPLE?

"Ever hear of Francesco Gasparini? How about John Eccles? Nope, I didn't think so."

Gasparini rings a very vague bell, and I have a single track of Alfred Deller singing Eccles.

"Johann Nepomuk Hummel, is known nowadays only to music historians."

And Monty Python enthusiasts. :)

I think I've played part of something he wrote for trumpet, transposed for Clarinet.

Richard Harris wrote:

Music has a social component, & we are social animals, so tastes in music are somewhat controlled by social contagion. There is some research that demonstrates this.

Oh, really? What does that research say about heavy metal fans? The same thing Christians say about atheists?

I don't mind listening to Amanda Palmer, it was witty enough, but she'll never be on my play list.

Does anyone here even know who Bear McCreary is?

I get the message Dick, but the vocals could be better. It's got a beat I think I could dance to. I give it a 76.

Does anyone here even know who Bear McCreary is?

I have Something Dark Is Coming from Battlestar Galactica on my iPod.

For the record, I like both some classical music as well as some pop music as well as some other music.

Aaannd... I think I saw someone I went to college with in there.

#40: I'd love to see a piece of classical music address this issue. What's that you say? Classical music can't? Oh. Well then, carry on.

I, for one, have never even heard of an opera where there was a rape scene at some point.

Screw Oasis. They had tickets to see blur!

Comparing classical music and pop is silly. The intents are wildly different.

Like virtually all pop music, Palmer's song is structurally and harmonically completely predictable--nothing you haven't heard a thousand times before. But to me the lyrics are funny and her presentation is engaging. She does what she sets out to do. Win.

Comparing classical music and pop is silly. The intents are wildly different.

Yes.

I find I get put into a 'good' mood by the kinds of classical music that I enjoy. That may appear to be tautological , but so what? Some genres of classical music don't usually do it for me - contemporary, lieder, & opera mostly. Music to a rock beat or repetitive rhythm I find irritating.

Hurrah! Why would I want to meet PEOPLE?

Sure, they are, mostly, a bit weird. But I admit that It's me that's at fault.

Super catchy!

#40 'I'd love to see a piece of classical music address this issue. What's that you say? Classical music can't?'

A bold - not to mention false - claim. Why couldn't it? Frankly, I think the highly tense discomfort of much atonal 20th-century music could be highly suited to a depiction of rape, should such a thing be called upon for a composer.

On the other hand, could a non-classical piece depict a ritual in which a tribal girl dances herself to death? Again, I don't see why not, but I haven't heard any non-classical come close to this.

I'm also a little bit sick of people thinking that classical music stopped at the beginning of the twentieth century.

OK, so I was trolling a bit there. It seems to me that - and thanks to the person who brought up Sturgeon's Law, which is never irrelevant in one of these "it were all green fields back in the day" arguments - classical music fans are often far too comfortable dismissing all pop music, whereas pop music fans are wary of dismissing all classical music for fear of being branded philistines. So now you know what it feels like!

There are some composers I like - Schonberg is good, as is Mussorgsky, and some Beethoven, and I have a fondness for Elgar that should be illegal in someone of my political persuasion. But much of it I do find tedious and bombastic - the Beethoven I like, for example, is the Beethoven who wrote the Moonlight Sonata and Fur Elise, rather than the one who wrote all those horrible blasting orchestral symphonies that aim to do for your ears what America and Britain have recently done to Baghdad.

I can't help the fact that my gut reaction to most classical music is depression followed by boredom. It's just this idea that it's objectively more complex or objectively more intellectually stimulating than pop music that gets my goat. Is it more stimulating and complex than Scott Walker's Tilt, or Brian Wilson's Smile, or Radiohead's Kid A? I am unconvinced.

Besides, there are things that pop music can do that classical music isn't very good at. I have never heard, and I doubt I ever will, a classical composition as exhilarating as any given White Stripes song, as concise and packed with ideas as a Beck song, as laugh-out-loud funny as any given Princess Superstar record, nor as lyrically complex as any given Bob Dylan track. Because these are things that pop music is weighted towards and classical is not. It's not filet mignon versus dogshit - it's two entirely different meals of a similar quality.

What is with classical music that makes its fans such snobs. I love Beethoven, I love Miles Davis, I LOVED the Grateful Dead. I prefer spontaneous improvisation to hearing the same thing over and over. At the Monthly Hoot last Sunday we were jamming along to some old folky stuff when these two guys started to rap over it and we created a whole new genre of folk music, though wether it should be called "rapananny" or "hoot-hop" is still in the air. As a musician I like any music made for the sake of music. Commercial fluff is annoying, and much of it is vacuous and stupid, but time will weed it out (I'm a proponent of what I now know as Sturgeon's law, thanks again for the facts I gain here). Snobs can go fuck off, I find Beethoven's ninth, the Stooges "Funhouse", "Anthem of the Sun"(Dead), and "Kinda Blue" (Miles) all brilliant, in their own way. If you can't get into anything more contemporary than Scott Joplin, that is your loss but keep your smug sense of superiority up your ass where it belongs. Although that may be why y'all can't swing.

Quedula @ # 30 - the lyrics (with some typos) are at http://www.metrolyrics.com/oasis-lyrics-amanda-palmer.html

Der Bruno Stroszek wrote:

There are some composers I like - Schonberg is good, as is Mussorgsky, and some Beethoven, and I have a fondness for Elgar that should be illegal in someone of my political persuasion. But much of it I do find tedious and bombastic - the Beethoven I like, for example, is the Beethoven who wrote the Moonlight Sonata and Fur Elise, rather than the one who wrote all those horrible blasting orchestral symphonies that aim to do for your ears what America and Britain have recently done to Baghdad.

All those horrible blasting orchestral symphonies that aim to do for your ears what America and Britain have recently done to Baghdad?

Great line, but how do you feel about modern movie composers? They seem to love blasting orchestral symphonies more than the classical composers.

How about Bernard Herrmann?

http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2009/01/have-i-been-big-bernard-herrman…

Wow! I too am blown away to see this here. Leaving for work now, scratching my head and smiling.

Amanda has seen better days but doesn't care (i.e., is happy) because she just received a photograph of Oasis (a band) in the mail that was autographed by the band members. She also has tickets to see Blur (a band) in concert. She's going to the concert with Melissa despite the fact that Melissa told the whole school that Amanda has an STD.

Hope that clears everything up for you classical music wankers.

Bahahaha! This is the most awful thing I have ever seen. :P

"I, for one, have never even heard of an opera where there was a rape scene at some point."

Well, the obvious one would be:

The Rape of Lucretia - Benjamin Britten

Also Alban Berg's "Wozzeck".

While most opera may not deal with it explicitly, it seems to me that a significant percentage of tragic operas deal with the subject indirectly. I mean, get real. Sure, very little western art of any type talks about rape explicitly before the 20th century, but it's referred to obliquely CONSTANTLY.

noodles:

Hope that clears everything up for you classical music wankers.

I know what you mean. The nerve of those elitists--daring to like something that wasn't extruded by the corporate music machine.

Great line, but how do you feel about modern movie composers? They seem to love blasting orchestral symphonies more than the classical composers.

True. I like some scores as part of a movie, but I can't imagine ever wanting to sit down and listen to one on its own, with the honourable exception of Angelo Badalamenti.

Epikt - the Dresden Dolls were created by the "corporate music machine"? News to me. What's your stance on classical composers who had wealthy patrons? Similarly condemnatory, I hope?

@quedula #30 and @Pierce R. Butler #59:
You can get the lyrics for the entire album direct from Herself at http://www.whokilledamandapalmer.com/album

Thanks PZ, for this lovely surprise!

Der Bruno Stroszek

the Dresden Dolls were created by the "corporate music machine"? News to me.

It was a general comment, not aimed at Palmer in particular. I'm not going to deliver my standard rant about the music biz. It's simply not worth the bother.

What's your stance on classical composers who had wealthy patrons? Similarly condemnatory, I hope?

Depends on the patron. Those with the taste to stay the hell out of the way enabled some pretty spectacular music.

@mikecbraun - That has to be Todd Louiso contributing to the backup vocals; good eye!

Der Bruno Stroszek wrote:

...I can't imagine ever wanting to sit down and listen to one on its own, with the honourable exception of Angelo Badalamenti.

Twin Peaks? That Angelo Badalamenti? That was nice, what else did he do?

That was sad and haunting. You might like Bear McCreary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9iypAmkyC4

Wow. How did I MISS this the other day?!

Ok yeah. The pop/rock vs "classical" thing is totally artificial. People like what they like. That's fine. However, people who diss "classical" generally don't have a fucking clue what they're talking about. Deafening? LMAO. A rock fan calling ANY classical piece "deafening" is just too hilarious.

The same goes for blanket generalizations about "rock". What is that? Do Gang of Four, Steely Dan, Genesis, The Stones, Sarah MacLachlan, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and Metallica all represent the same thing? Nope.

With that said, I have to agree that some "classical" pieces ARE bombastic. Some are pretentious. Just like some rock music. Rock is even better-suited to bombast.

I'm an electric guitarist, by the way. Mostly rock/pop/R&B whatever. Just thought I'd get that out of the way early. I'm also a clarinetist and pianist, but not so much anymore. I fucking LOVE rock music. I love Yes. I love the Beatles. Crowded House. The Raconteurs. Joni Mitchell. Led Zep. XTC. Wilco. Springsteen. Radiohead. The list is endless. So I have no anti-rock bias here. Quite the contrary.

Show of hands: How many of you have ever heard "The Miraculous Mandarin" or even know what it is? No fair googling.

Speaking of pagan rituals and girls dancing themselves to death, are many of you aware that there was a riot in Paris at the debut of "The Rite of Spring"? Very rock'n'roll.

How about Berg's "Lulu"? Anyone familiar with that? How about "Wozzeck"? These operas feature plenty of blood, sex, and rape. One of the fun facts about Bartok's "Miraculous Mandarin" is that it was considered SO profane that it was banned.

Anyway, the point is, could "classical" (whatever that is supposed to mean) music tell a story like Palmer's? Yes, of course! Could it do it as well? Perhaps. Could it tell it in exactly the same way? Of course not. Palmer's campy pop satire is a fine vehicle for the story she's trying to tell. As someone else said: she nailed it. As did Stravinsky, Bartok, Beethoven, Britten, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, Debussy, Bach... they all nailed it.

Sturgeon's Law. Bring it on! :-)

Ok, I confess I have NO idea where I'm going with this. I'm just annoyed by the false dichotomy, the pointless comparisons, the gross generalizations and shallow misunderstandings of what can, and has been, accomplished withi these many, varied and diverse forms of music that always seem to get lumped into a single non-descriptive category.

Ok. End rant. Carry on.

and I have a fondness for Elgar that should be illegal in someone of my political persuasion.

Now THAT is funny.

I'm kinda with you on Beethoven, frankly. As great and influential as his symphonies were - are - I prefer his more modest settings.

Frankly, y'all shouldn't limit yourselves on your musical tastes so much. For myself, I played in orchestras and big bands for about 18 years, did time in a punk/funk/jazz group, lotsa short term projects with musician friends, only lately settled down to playing old country for fun. I have no idea what I'll play in the future, but I expect to be surprised. People who limit their taste in music tend to be non-musicians. Real players want to play it all!

www.cryinoutloud.net

I'm with you, Cappy.

Watchman wrote:

I'm an electric guitarist, by the way.

And I play computer (software synth):
http://www.box.net/shared/16vmbxot2g

Got any samples of your work on the net?

Watchman wrote:

I fucking LOVE rock music. I love Yes. I love the Beatles. Crowded House. The Raconteurs. Joni Mitchell. Led Zep. XTC. Wilco. Springsteen. Radiohead...

Son, that's the Devil's music.

Not sure I understand how people can dedicate themselves to one musical genre above all others. I scan down my iTunes and I can see so many different genres: I got rock, classical, pop, jazz, J-pop, R&B, K-rock, techno, reggae, electronica, country, folk, blues, alternative, world, and so on.

Maybe it's true what everybody tells me, that I have no taste....