Gingi is angry

She's so mad about how mean pro-choice people are, that she's making up new facts. She says she received death threats over her callous use of the death of children, which may be entirely true (and if it is, I'm pissed off at you: no, it doesn't matter how vile her behavior is, you don't threaten physical harm over it), but she also makes strange claims about how harmless the raving loonies of the anti-choice movement are. Part of it is fallacious context. The anti-choicers haven't blown up as many buildings as the number of churches that have been burned down! (Never mind that there is no group advocating the destruction of churches.) EarthFirst! and ALF/ELF have done more property damage than they have…and we people who believe that women should have a right to choose endorse those actions. Wait, what? She couldn't have really said that. Yes, she did.

It's astounding that the open-minded abortion-loving crew can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of hostility towards buildings that house infanticide and mass assembly-line slaughter, all while they support and applaud the regular targeting of churches, synagogues, forestry companies, corporate and university-based medical research laboratories, medical-supply firms, fur farms and other industrial buildings.

It's the first time I've ever been accused of applauding the destruction of laboratories, anyway. I also don't think of women's health clinics as places of mass assembly-line slaughter.

She also makes up some weird numbers. How about this?

In the entire history of the struggle over abortion, only 7 pro-abortion activists (including three abortionists) have been murdered. Compare that to the 520 murders by pro-aborts and the 360 fatal botched abortions by abortionists including: 145 pregnant women, 360 abortion clients, 71 other women, 110 born children, 164 wanted preborn children and 30 men.

I like that. They've only murdered 7! They must not be so bad after all.

I'm baffled by the other numbers, though, and no source is given. So pro-choice activists have acted like Paul Hill, walked up to 520 people, and gunned them down in cold blood? What are the circumstances behind these claims?

But anyway, don't bother with Gingi Edmonds — she's demented and hysterical. In particular, do not send her threats of harm! That is never appropriate under any circumstances.

There is something productive that you can do, though. Every year on Good Friday, the MisogynyNow! crowd, thousands of rabid anti-choice fanatics, converge on family planning clinics and do their usual sign waving, shouting dance of hate against women using the facilities. It's not as if you people have church services you need to attend, so sign up for a counter-demonstration at the Highland Park Planned Parenthood and show your support with peaceful social action. There may be similar activities in your neighborhood — look them up. There may be a thousand Gingi Edmonds howling and weeping there, but all you have to do is stand up against them in defense of reason and women's autonomy.

(via Sunny Skeptic)

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Highland Park Planned Parenthood is just down the street from me. I think I'll join the counter-demonstration.

"Compare that to the 520 murders by pro-aborts and the 360 fatal botched abortions by abortionists including: 145 pregnant women, 360 abortion clients, 71 other women, 110 born children, 164 wanted preborn children and 30 men."

... Are these numbers supposed to add up or something? Because they don't.

There's a sign up sheet? Heh, Matt and I were just going to show up.

Stark. Raving. Mad. Lunatic.

Wait, according to her 30 men were killed in botched abortion procedures?

I am, how shall I put it, skeptical?

"145 pregnant women, 360 abortion clients, 71 other women, 110 born children, 164 wanted preborn children and 30 men."

After thinking about this a little, it seems to be saying that everything except the "360 abortion clients" have committed a murder of some kind. I wonder, though, how 110 born children and 164 "preborn children" are capable of murder.

I couldn't bear to read any further down the page than this:

Despite the fact that we pro-lifers are continuously battling abuse from those who advocate stabbing kids in the back of the neck and sucking their brains out, the pro-life movement is unquestionably the most peaceful social movement of all time.

That's right people, any violence or unpleasantness on their part is completely our fault. If we'd just stop stabbing kids in the neck and sucking their brains out, the problem would evaporate. I certainly hope you all can take this suggestion to heart.

Man, what a piece of work. I need a shower.

all while they support and applaud the regular targeting of churches, synagogues, forestry companies, corporate and university-based medical research laboratories, medical-supply firms, fur farms and other industrial buildings.

I'm pro choice and don't condone vandalism against any of these buildings. For one a lot of churches are architecturally beautiful, need to turn them into something useful though, and it is a shame when they are destroyed.

Way to paint with a broad brush there!

By Doug Little (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"preborn children"
And for dinner this evening I am preparing predigested shit.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Wait, according to her 30 men were killed in botched abortion procedures?

I am, how shall I put it, skeptical?

I'm imagining a zany, Monty-Pythonesque scenario involving banana peels and scalpels.

"164 wanted preborn children"?

So...doctors are accused of dragging women in off the street to terminate their pregnancies??

By Sassafras (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Alex got it completely correct:

She is a stark raving mad lunatic.

I would like to clarify 'mad' as mentally deranged and dangerously delusional.

By NewEnglandBob (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

What? I thought these people were under the belief that all abortions were murdered. She even lists preborn children aborted for (I assume) medical reasons a victims of murder but doesn't count regular old abortions in her numbers? Should her number be way higher? I suppose she's trying to pretend to use 'our' standards of murder and not hers--to great failure.

By kencabbit (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

And for dinner this evening I am preparing predigested shit.

Bravo.

I'm imagining a zany, Monty-Pythonesque scenario involving banana peels and scalpels.

... and tragic--if extremely funny--mishaps with apirators:

MALE VICTIM: Argh!! Get it off! Get it off me! My god get it...

(A disturbing slurping sound is heard...)

ORDERLY: The horror. The horror.

Meh, Gingi probably is angry that billions turn their back on her ever loving big sky daddy.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

.. hrm.. oh I see.. she's claiming these are all victims of murderous botched abortions... huh? that still doesn't explain how you kill 30 men in a botched abortion, or why a botched abortion is more murderous to her in this rant than a successful one..

By kencabbit (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

OK. 30 men would be a really, really botched abortion.

"pre-born children"? Yuck. Do these come from masturbation?
I very much think that the death-threats didn't come from anyone here - it wouldn't be tolerated, for good reason. It's all just a part of this woman's pshychotic paranoia. And she's probably dimly aware that she actually did something wrong....

Oh. So anyone who is pro-choice, and committed murder for any reason, is tossed into the evil murdering pro-abort statistic. In that case, I'm surprised the numbers are so low.

I notice they don't have similarly slack standards for the pro-life murder tally.

Gingi is right. If you are pro-choice you are pro-abortion and thus complicit in the murder of innocent children.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I also liked:

History shows that the pro-life movement is by far the most peaceful social movement in the history of the world.

Mmmmmm, can't you just feel the humility? Enjoy it while you can, folks, you rarely see hyperbole of this caliber any more.

She also seems to equate "liberal" with "pro-choice." No surprise there - no fundamentalist rant is complete without the no true scotsman argument.

PZ, you would not want any more car accidents. The fact is these children being aborted have potential life. Would you have wanted your mother to abort you?? You could be aborting the next Richard Dawkins for all you know.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Yawn, idiot is back, and as wrong and boring as ever.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

OK. 30 men would be a really, really botched abortion.

INVESTIGATING OFFICER: Okay. So let's take this from the top again. You were standing where?

SHAKEN WITNESS: Right there, man. I was just emptying the wastebaskets...

OFFICER: And you saw what?

WITNESS: Well, the guy performing the procedure--Dr. Tim--sometimes we have coffee together--anyway, he'd just gone into the surgery. I heard this noise--guess that was the aspirator starting up...

OFFICER: And then?

WITNESS: Well, this football team walked in. Musta been thirty guys. One of 'em sez they want to use the can. And just at the same time these two guys from the ball bearing plant next door walked past the surgery, too... They were carrying this crate. Said 'CAUTION: Polished bearings, very slippery', on the side. And someone had just washed the floor...

Jim's trenchant analysis is compelling.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

*shows warrant*

Jim Tanger! You're wanted on the Texas thread. The charge is "Turning tail and running like a yellow cur when asked a pointed question." Come along now, lad. Don't make a scene. They're waiting for you over there.

You know, I didn't go to Sunday school, being raised in an irreligious house, but I seem to recall the Bible saying things like 'thou shall not kill', not 'thou shall not kill, unless the other guys have killed more'.

That's a pretty useful loophole.

By Becca Stareyes (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I couldn't even get through that. I had to stop when she started throwing out random and meaningless numbers. What a loon.

#26 @ Jim Tanger,

But doesn't your god say that all people are created with Original Sin? By that standard there are no innocent children.

By Vile for your God (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim. You're an idiot.

Because the case of H. H. Holmes (You can read about him in The Devil In The White City), who preyed upon young women is analogous to a women choosing to terminate a pregnancy.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I was going to say... 30 men had abortions? What color is the sky in her world? I also don't get the differentiation between "145 pregnant women" and "360 abortion clients". Is she suggesting that 360 women who were not pregnant had abortions anyhow?

Why are these people so goddamn stupid?

Jim's trenchant analysis is compelling.

yeah - compelling me to skip all his posts.

They are not properly conceived and they are not allowed to be born. We view children as innocent when they are born. They have not yet made any moral decisions beyond the actions of the parent.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

JT is the latest village idiot to visit us. He can't respond to questions, as his IQ isn't high enough to understand them.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

AJ Milne-

It sounds so plausible when you put it that way...

But Jim, I thought everyone was born into sin. Why can't y'all agree on these basic points?

I speak the inerrant word of God. Women do not have the "right" to terminate a life. In fact, British medical experts are requesting more studies on whether fetal pain develops early on. Pregnancy also has numerous benefits for the tone of the women; a child is not a parasite by any means. I don't have the "right" to do anything I want in society.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

HI PATRICIA & EVAN!! HEHE I LOVE YOU!>

By Tim Janger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I would like to clarify 'mad' as mentally deranged and dangerously delusional.

It's like mad scientists; Some are angry, others are insane. Many are both.

By Sarcastro (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I speak the inerrant word of God. Women do not have the "right" to terminate a life. In fact, British medical experts are requesting more studies on whether fetal pain develops early on. Pregnancy also has numerous benefits for the tone of the women; a child is not a parasite by any means. I don't have the "right" to do anything I want in society.

Scary assertion. Assertion. Non sequitur. Unreferenced double assertion. True but irrelevant statement.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I speak the inerrant word of God.

God doesn't exist, so you speak of your own delusions villiage idiot.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim Tanger - Words have meanings. Do you even bother to understand what you write, or do you just reflexively throw out idiotic combinations of your favorite phrases?

The fact is these children being aborted have potential life.

No, they have actual life. I assume even you wouldn't object to a doctor removing a dead fetus from a woman. Actually, I shouldn't assume. You'll probably need to consult the Bible about it.

Jim Tanger (#44):

I speak the inerrant word of God.

Truly...awesome. Thank you Jim, you just made my day.

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication. For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false! Science does not have all of the answers. You are scientific robots.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Oh yes, that terribly peaceful pro-life movement. *guffaw* Well, Gingi seems to be making about as much sense as she ever does. It's like; she just opens her keyboard and words come out! She's about as coherent as I am after about 150 ml of vodka, and nowhere near as honest.

By Alyson Miers (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Gingi who?

Never heard of the woman.
Though i have to admit, only the real important people and news reaches us here in Europe.

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ,

Ah more delusions. God doesn't exist, nor does his alleged son, nor heaven for that matter. Yawn, boring liar for imaginary deities.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Gingi and her mother, saxon, are Fred Phelps class malevolent xians. Like all so called pro lifers, they love zygotes and hate people one second after they are born. These are just garden variety mentally unstable, hostile, evil, haters who use religion as an excuse.

Not worth worrying too much about. Just remember 911 is for the police and take reasonable security precautions.

And yes, she made up a zillion facts. She lied. They always lie. The number of health care workers killed by xian terrorists runs around 7 dead, 17 attempted murders, and 200 wounded some seriously. The number of family planning clinics bombed or burned is not well tracked but it seems to run about 10-20/year.

AFAIK, no atheists have burned down any churches. They do get burned down occasionally but it is usually just vandalism or disgruntled members. The fundie church near my former home was torched. It was the teen age kid of one of the members who had some issues with them

I speak the inerrant word of God.t.

You're the Pope!?

By Sarcastro (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"(Never mind that there is no group advocating the destruction of churches.)"

...Well there's always these creepy Norwegian black metal folks that burn churches, but they don't count. They're satanists.

...Is Satan for abortion???

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication.

Boy, that doesn't seem like a very Christian attitude!

I speak the inerrant word of God

This guy is nothing to do with me. He's just sore because his mother caught him masturbating

By The real inerr… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

#44 "I speak the inerrant word of God."

Say Jim, would that be the same god that ordered the Israelites to kill every living thing in the cities they defeated?

Including, of course, babies and pregnant women.

By Spiro Keat (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication. For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false! Science does not have all of the answers. You are scientific robots.

blah blah blah blah blah I get off on torture blah blah blah blah blah

By MAJeff, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

#52 Jim-

I WISH I were a scientific robot... then I would have to use a calculator to balance my check book.

ALSO... "vindication?" I don't think jesus would approve. And we'd be there at the same time? As in the rapture? I HOPING to be left behind.

JT, do you have any physical evidence for your god yet? You are a piss-poor xian if you don't.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I am sorry, I should have provided some context for my previous statement.

First-Degree Murder (27 counts), Torture (11 incidents), Bigamy, Illegal Abortion, Practicing Medicine Without a License, Animal Abuse (8 incidents), Abuse of a Corpse (26 incidents), Insurance Fraud (32 incidents), Fraud (10 incidents), Theft (9 incidents), Grave Robbery (18 incidents) and Bail Jumping [Englewood]

Perhaps it should come as no surprise that America's first serial killer, often known as "America's Arch Fiend," was an abortionist.

If you are so inclined, you can read the rest on my link. Thank you, KenS.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

i get sore when i mastrubate too much also

By Tim Janger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

It's a well known fact that some scientists are beginning to doubt evolution. It's just an unprovable human theory.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

@Jim Tanger: They're not scientists. They're creationists.

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

true dat Jim

By Tim Janger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Cue the "You are all baby killers" in 10 9 8....

Cue the "All you baby killing, cannibalistic, pseudointellectuals are going to hell" in 10 9 8....

Cue the death threaters in 10 9 8 ....

These clowns are so predictable it is boring.

Jim Tanger:

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication.

Ah, that must be some of that 'most peaceful movement in the world' stuff Gingi was referring to. In Jim's world, eternal love and forgiveness is equivalent to schaudenfreude [sp].

I think Gingi's total of "botched fatal abortions" is referring to instances where the woman having the abortion died. Sometimes patients die on the table. It happens, but has nothing to do with anything.

Jim Tanger makes me feel a deep fondness for Pete Rooke.

By Captain Mike (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I would like to see you guys contradict Janine.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

They are not properly conceived and they are not allowed to be born. We view children as innocent when they are born. They have not yet made any moral decisions beyond the actions of the parent.

There is evidence that late term fetuses have dreams within the womb.

Jesus said that you are sinning when you're even just thinking about sinning. So some of these dreaming fetuses are sinners.

By strange gods b… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Shorter Jim Tanager: "I stupid and think I'm god".

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I wanna be a robot too!!!

Jim. You're lying. And your ignorance is showing.

The idiot has reached shit stain level stupidity.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I never thought this would happen but I find her too stupid to be entertaining.

By Lotharloo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

@Strange gods before me #75:
...HA!!! Woah dude, what kind of sinful dream do you think an unborn baby is having there? Did it witness some late term sex or something?

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

just like scheinticts doubt evolution there are religous people that doubt all the false religions... isnt it odd that only Christianity doesnt have doubters! BAM! becuase you all know its true if you doubt you are not a Christian so only true believers believe so the beliefs of the true believers must be true or they wouldnt believe them! So some scientist doubt science that means its wrong... and some religous people doubt all non Christianity so that oly leaves one answer... amirite?

By Tim Janger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

The anti-choicers haven't blown up as many buildings as the number of churches that have been burned down! (Never mind that there is no group advocating the destruction of churches.)

Also never mind that most of the Churches (and Mosques, and Synagogues) get burned because the people inside are the wrong religion, or the wrong sect, or the wrong color.

It's astounding that the open-minded abortion-loving crew can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of hostility towards buildings that house infanticide and mass assembly-line slaughter

Oh, sure, it's the buildings that get called child killers. It's the buildings that are told they're going to hell. It's the buildings that get death threats. When a doctor gets shot, it's because they tried to shoot the building and missed.

Hostility towards buildings. Riiiiight...

By Sophist FCD (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

How can you guys defend Herman Webster Mudgett, one of America's earliest serial killers and an abortionist for profit? The pro-life movement is by far more peaceful.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication.

Some more of that Christian love, folks. You really are wonderful people. Ghandi was right.

Oh, and when you die and are thrown before Odin, I'm gonna laugh my fucking ass off.

WHO DO YOU HAVE TO FUCK TO GET A LATE-TERM DIRTY MARTINI AROUND HERE!?!?!?!?!?!?!

By MAJeff, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

@Strange gods before me #75:
...HA!!! Woah dude, what kind of sinful dream do you think an unborn baby is having there? Did it witness some late term sex or something?

Oh who knows. Maybe it is fantasizing about eating its twin.

I'm playing within their weird-ass construct, not endorsing it. There is no such thing as sin.

By strange gods b… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication."

And then you'll wake up.

"For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false! Science does not have all of the answers."

No explanation = Dumbass sky fairy did it. I can't explain it therefore I CAN explain it. Moron.

Seriously, I don't care what you OR your imaginary friend think. Get lost.

Death threats are over the top, but is it alright if I hope she gets warts?

Short Jim Tanger "I'm sooo stupid. I can only recite slogans. I think not."

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist and racist, promoter of eugenics, etc. RESEARCH.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication. For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false!"

When Scarlett Johannsen marries me, I will stand there and smile in vindication. For science cannot conclusively prove that I will never get married!

By Screechy Monkey (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"...an abortionist for profit?"
...So the cat comes out. It's the evil profit again.

The guy has a profession. So what? You know what? HANDS OFF my damn body, buddy. I shall use it as I want.

You have no proof that your religion is The One True Religion (tm). There is a huge amount of gods that have come and past or changed. Even YOUR god has changed. Do you strain or work on sundays? Do you trim your beard? Do you eat bacon? Lobster? Do you stone disobedient children?

You vile blasphemer!

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim, no one has contradicted Janine because we all caught that she was being sarcastic. H.H. Holmes was the sort of monster that should not be allowed to walk under the living sky.

I haven't seen a single person defend Herman Webster Mudgett (aka H.H. Holmes).

By Captain Mike (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

t's a well known fact that some scientists are beginning to doubt evolution. It's just an unprovable human theory.

As opposed to the theory that you speak "the inerrant word of God"?

You're way out of your depth here, Jim.

It's a well known fact that some scientists are beginning to doubt evolution. It's just an unprovable human theory.

It's a well known fact that some people doubt that the Earth orbits the sun. It's just an unprovable human theory.

*yawn*

Jim,

Just wondering. Do you check the blood from your wife's periods for fertilized eggs? up to 20% to 50% of the time you will find one.

When you do, do you have a funeral?

Why not? Could it be that you are full of shit and don't really think that a fertilized egg is a person? If you did, isn't it your responsibility to give it a funeral like you would for any other person?

It sounds so plausible when you put it that way...

Yeah. And the best part is when the investigating officer turns, sez to his partner:

'I've seen this kind of thing before. It ain't pretty.'

Poor JT, nobody showed him how to think. Just one idiotic phrase after another. Lights on, nobody home. We just can't be bothered with such imbecility.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist and racist, promoter of eugenics, etc. RESEARCH."

Again, don't care.

This site details the thinking
http://abortionviolence.com/MURDERS.HTM

They include any killing by Manson because he killed a pregnant woman (so he's an abortionist), so that accounts for some of the men. Men who murdered pregnant wives or girlfriends and their other children are included - hence the 'born children'. Edward Morris, for example killed his wife and three children. Because his wife was pregnant, he counts as an abortionist.

Sandi Dawn Nieves killed her four daughters - her defense argued (unsuccessfully) that her actions were the result of hormonal problems after "a recent abortion."

etc. etc.

Using that logic we can add child abusing, pedophile Catholic priests to the crimes of the 'ProLife' crowd. except that it would be silly

Jim Tanger:

I would like to see you guys contradict Janine.

What, a guy who speaks the innerrant word of God needs to rely on the arguments of others?

Doesn't that imply that the innerrant word of God is unconvincing, incomplete, and insufficient for the job?

PZ, me thinks JT could use a good disemvoweling.

By LightningRose (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Seeing that this thread is not just derailed, it has plunged off the bridge and is beneath the water, it is time for an other of my music links. All of the talk of religion and robots brought to mind a Minutemen song.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

A horrid thing happened on the way to breakfast...

Once upon a decade or so ago I was staying in Menlo Park, CA. One morning we hoofed it up the road for a cafe breakfast as usual. We went to a cafe called Late for the Train (or something like that), it was a good place that served us enormous (by our non American standards) breakfast burritoes (sp?) and monster sized jugs of fresh fruit juice.

We'd been there every morning for a few days, yay it was great and dirt cheap (my home at the time was in Oslo, Norway - believe me after Oslo even Silicon Valley is so cheap it's almost free).

Along the way on this particular morning we walked past an otherwise nondescript building. We'd walked past it quite a few times previously I suppose, without ever once paying it any attention.

This time though we discovered that it was a family planning clinic, or health centre, or whatever, that presumably performed abortions.

The clue to this was that there was a man stood on the pavement (sidewalk?) outside with an A-Board, and on the A-Board was a grotesque poster featuring what I presume was the mangled remains of a relatively late term aborted foetus.

We walked on by, choosing not to get involved. Be fair, we wanted breakfast, and American politics / cultural issues whilst on American soil aren't really any of my non-American business.

I'm no biologist, nor doctor, nor surgeon but I did study biology to what we call A-Level (18yo, no idea what, if any, is the American equivalent). During these studies I dissected numerous mammals, amphibians, insects, and fish. So I am moderately familiar with what the insides of critters look like and it doesn't freak me out, though I don't suppose it would usually be called pleasant (damned fascinating mind you).

But of course the pro-life protestors know their subject matter, and the poster this chap was displaying was pretty off putting.

At the time I thought little more of it. It wasn't even a subject of conversation amongst us, we all just ignored it.

Now I am a parent though.

Hmmm.

You know what? That poster now annoys me way more than it could have done back then in my pre-parental days.

Choosing to become a parent is a massive decision, it's huge. Shit, I thought getting a mortgage was a big deal, pffft! That's absolutely nothing compared to deciding to bring a new life into this world, to care for that life, raise it, nurture it, love and educate it.

So what happens if your decision is not to carry on with the pregnancy? That's a pretty momentous decision too I should imagine (not been there, can't be sure).

The emotions that anyone making that decision must go through? Ick, it doesn't bear thinking about. I expect that for the vast majority of people abortion is not an easy decision, nor a pleasant one.

Perhaps there are some people who don't find abortion a particularly big deal? (Can't say as I've ever met any woman who has said that, and speaking as a father I can't imagine it to be an easy decision). Such people probably aren't going to worry one way or another about the sort of poster the chap was displaying.

But for most people? Women in particular?

This is the point at which the chap with his A-Board becomes a monster in my opinion.

The selfish arsehole was stood there plying his debased "morality" in the most grotesque manner directly at women who are most likely already in an emotionally vulnerable condition.

Where do these wankers get off? And a man too? No fucking way Jose! Ultimately abortion is a woman's choice, surely?

And what did he support? I can't really say because if he did have any literature or something to say we neither saw nor heard it. But it's a fair bet he'd be "championing the rights of the pre-born child". Fuck off! What about the rights of the "already born" fully functioning adult (or pre-adult) female?

You want evil? Evil is the sort of bastard who stands outside clinics with his grotesque A-Boards. To wrapped up in his own dogma to stop and think about the poor sods making this difficult decision, seeking to force his own wretched and misguided "morality" upon others.

Foul fuckers that they are.

Jim the wannabe fundie killer:

PZ, you would not want any more car accidents.

Told y'all two threads ago, that Jim the wacko would get around to threatening to kill everyone.

Go for it, you can do better than a vague threat involving a car. You know you really, really want to just go berserk and threaten to kill everyone. Besides which, you are dragging out your threat escalation and we are all bored of your inane third grade level insanity.

This is why xianity got a bad name and why it is slowly dying in the USA. The jims, gingis, and saxons took all their hate, violence, and killing lust, balled it up, worship it, and call it xianity. Most normal xians would be appalled but they are evidently so apathetic that they just let their religion get taken over by the Dark Forces.

"abortionist for profit"

For pro-lifers, wouldn't it be worse to be an abortionist just for fun?

By Screechy Monkey (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

PZ, methinks JT could use a good disemvoweling.

By LightningRose (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist

Folks, did you know that Helen Keller and Albert Einstein were socialists?

By strange gods b… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I would love to be a scientific robot--my productivity would skyrocket!

"preborn children"
And for dinner this evening I am preparing predigested shit.

So full of win, Sven dear.

did you know that God is an atheist? OMG he doesnt believe in a higher power becasue hes the highest... SHITE!!

By Tim Janger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Posted by: Jim Tanger | April 8, 2009

I would like to see you guys contradict Janine.

I have already placed you in my killfile or I would have answered this earlier. Reread what I said. I am not on your side. In fact, I think you are a damned ignorant fool.

How can your god be aware of every feather of ever sparrow but cannot control every accident, as you claimed in an other thread? Not that I give a fly fuck about your answer.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I dunno why he says that it's bad that the woman from Planned Parenthood was a racist... Did you ever read the bible, Jim? God's one hell of a racist, dude. He loves killing ethnicities.

By his Holy Standards, it's one good point. (by my decent standards, if she truly was a racist, she's a bitch.)

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

How many women died because of botched backstreet abortions before easy, legal abortions were available? Data about abortion rates pre-legalisation is pretty hard to come by, but it was probably of the same order of magnitude per capita. That was almost certainly the case here in the UK.

So the only difference between after legalisation is the reduction of the number of women who die because of unsafe conditions. The anti-abortion movement is just misogynistic claptrap. They don't care for people's lives, it's more about restricting access to safe medical procedures and the freedom they represent to women.

By Akheloios (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim the wannabe killer again:

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication.

Getting closer to the death-threats-for-all moment. This guy is slow but when he goes off, imaginary guts and blood will be everywhere.

BTW, it is becoming obvious that Jim Tanger is genuinely mentally ill and potentially very dangerous. I've seen these people before more often than anyone wants to know. The flat affect, slow escalation, and underlying unfocused tremendous hostility are, literally, dead giveaways. This is a potential killer and don't give him any of your personal information.

Didn't the BTK Killer (redundancy?) go to church? I can't believe Jim would stand here and defend the actions of America's longest running serial killer.

How can you guys defend Herman Webster Mudgett, one of America's earliest serial killers and an abortionist for profit? The pro-life movement is by far more peaceful.

I don't think anyone is!

Oh, and when you die and are thrown before Odin, I'm gonna laugh my fucking ass off.

I 2nd that!

By Barklikeadog (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

ZK, thank you for your rant. That was very well said.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

For pro-lifers, wouldn't it be worse to be an abortionist just for fun?

BOB'S SURPRISED DATE: Come again? Your hobby is... what?

BOB: Well, see, I'd already collected all the stamps...

#52 @ JT
For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false! Science does not have all of the answers.

Let me get this straight: because science can't disprove a bunch of silly assertions, one or more of them must be correct? That is the implication here.

As far as science not having all the answers: at least science has given us many good answers. Religion has no answers whatsoever.

By nigelTheBold (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist and racist, promoter of eugenics, etc. RESEARCH.

Mussolini was evil.
Mussolini made the trains run on time.
Therefore
Public transport is evil.

By AKheloios (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim, did you know that most of the people who founded this country were racists? How can you support something founded by people like that? If I were you, I'd leave in protest.

Even Einstein said that religion and science were not mutually exclusive. The point is, abortion has caused more deaths than pro-life activists. Show me statistics to prove otherwise.

By Jim Tanger (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false!"

Maybe not, but we're making good progress on the one you seem to cling to and some of the others. Invisible Pink Unicornism is going to be a bitch though.

30 Men??? Now that's what I call a botched abortion.

By NoAstronomer (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

How many women died because of botched backstreet abortions....

You make a very good point, and I was thinking the same. But, please, I lived my impressionable years in the 90s. "Backstreet abortions" is causing me some really unsettling thoughts.

Jim won't last much longer here...he's tipped over the hate scale too much. And don't you just adore what these fundies do with the word "love"?
I was listening to some appalling christian theologist on the radio, talking about the Holocaust. It appears that the problem now is that God is dependent on Humanity to share His grief and to console Him!

JT still lying is ass off. But the, it is the only thing godbots are good at. Lying and bearing false witness. Starting with their imaginary god.

By Nerd of Redhead, OM (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

AnthonyK, that does not even begin to make sense. But I guess that is not the point.

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I read the whole screed, and it's hilarious.

One thing that even the most seasoned pro-life activists never tire of marveling at is the total hypocrisy of those that stand for 'choice'. Pro-choicers claim to care for young girls – all while advocating protecting the men who rape and molest them.

Do you know of any pro-choice advocate who also advocates 'protecting' people who rape and/or molest young girls? I don't. The nearest I can think of is requiring that it is shown that people who are accused of doing this are guilty before punishing them. You know, just like any other crime.

Pro-choicers parade around shrieking about 'health – all while censoring pertinent medical information regarding abortion (increased risk of breast cancer, psychological trauma, inability to conceive, etc.)

Nope, I think most who want to 'censor' this simply want these claims to be proven before saying they're true.

Despite the fact that we pro-lifers are continuously battling abuse from those who advocate stabbing kids in the back of the neck and sucking their brains out

Should I make the comment that, with some, this happened, but it failed to abort the fetus, or would that be too snarky?

Seriously, though, I'd like to get her to explain how you can stick a knife in the back of the neck of something and suck out their brain when that something doesn't, as yet have a brain. Or a neck, for that matter.

The National Abortion Federation website shows a very impressive 159,616 incidents of "violence and disruption" and "terrorism" from pro-lifers in the U.S. and Canada during the time period of 1977-2008.

She then goes on a whole rant disputing this, However, even if her figures were accepted uncritically, without investigating their accuracy, or asking for her sources, or whatever else, she only indicate the majority weren't violent. That figure is for 'violence and DISRUPTION'. It is perfectly possible to be disruptive without being violent about it. In addition, she uses the claim that these people were 'exercising their legal rights' to do what they did, and completely missing that the same could be said for the pro-choice side, and, indeed, those who were having abortions, which they were trying to prevent from occurring.

For example, the staff at the Portland Feminist Women's Health Center expected a rescue mission that never happened.

For the purposes of clarification - that was a 'direct rescue' mission, which is the preferred euphemism, by some pro-lifers, for a bombing or arson attempt on a clinic. And it was one that was directly threatened, not, as Gingi claims, 'some nutty feminist dreaming up a threat that never happens'.

While clinic staff and pro-aborts are off in Lala Land bursting into weeping fits over imagined acts of non-violence, back in the real world we life activist deal with real threats that involve real aggression that often results in very real bodily injury and death.

Well, whilst there may or may not be 'imagined acts of nonviolence' going on in 'Lala Land', back on Earth, there are very real and documented acts of violence that have been perpetrated by 'pro-lifers', some of which have resulted in death.

Hmm, question - would that constitute 'irony', 'hypocrisy' or both?

"I speak the inerrant word of God. Women do not have the "right" to terminate a life."

Hey, Jim. Which verse was that again? I read the bible thru several times as a kid, but it's been a few years. I remember that adultery was a capital offense, and rape, and blasphemy, and kids talking back to their parents - all stoning-worthy. But assaulting a woman so that she lost her fetus against her will was simply a *fineable offense.

Are you one of those libruls who just make stuff up about the Word of God? Gosh, I hope not. Care to enlighten me - which verse?

To summarize Jim Twanger's posts:

1) I am the mouthpiece of almighty Jeeezuz. Therefore [b]my[/b] subjective interpretation of reality trumps all y'alls, no matter how willfully ignorant mine is.

2) I masturbate to the idea of seeing you all burn in hell because you weren't swayed by my [i]super compelling[/i] arguments.

3) Speaking of god-damned things, I don't know a single goddamned thing about what a theory is, and why the phrase "evolution is just a theory" reveals so much about the ignoranti who utter it.

4) There have been bad people in the past who were pro-choice. Therefore, pro-choice = evil. QED.

Thanks for playing! I'm afraid you didn't win the Internets, but you do get to take home a copy of our fabulous Home Edition!

All of her screed was laced with insanity, but this stuck out:

"Pro-choicers claim to care for young girls – all while advocating protecting the men who rape and molest them."

What. The. Fucking. Hell.

I for one am pro-choice. And I also support laws to ensure those who rape/molest anyone else do the time in prison for such horrible crimes.

She's a nutball who doesn't have a drop of reason in her brain.

Gingi Edmonds = EPIC FAIL

Smidgy, I have to be honest, I could not bring myself to read all of Gingi's screed. Thank you for pointing out that tidbit. That fact that she claims that pro choice women work at protecting rapists make me despise that person even more. I did not think that could happen. Has Gingi ever meet a feminist?

By Janine, Insult… (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim, what the hell does the relationship between science and religion have to do with abortion? Its makes as much sense as Gingi equating people who are pro-choice with environmental terrorists. It's like the right-wing talking points are thrown together in your heads and get spewed out in a jumble of idiotic statements.

Oops, formatting error. Oh well, html and bbc tags are practically a part of english language anymore anyway.

It seems that Jim has driven on by and will not be favoring us with any more inerrant words. A pity.
So I did a little RESEARCH, as Jim inerrantly advised, and learned that Margaret Sanger (the name that inerrant researchin' Jim evidently forgot) was indeed a socialist. Know why? She

blam[ed] the evils of contemporary capitalism for the unsatisfactory conditions of the young white working-class women.

Which seems a reasonable place to put some blame (back then, at least).

Eugenics?

Though many leaders in the eugenics movement were calling for active euthanasia of the "unfit," Sanger spoke out against such methods. She believed that women with the power and knowledge of birth control were in the best position to produce "fit" children. She rejected any type of eugenics that would take control out of the hands of those actually giving birth.

Racism? Guilty as charged, in a weird sort of 19th-century great-chain-of-being sort of way:

"The lower down in the scale of human development we go the less sexual control we find. It is said that the aboriginal Australian, the lowest known species of the human family, just a step higher than the chimpanzee in brain development, has so little sexual control that police authority alone prevents him from obtaining sexual satisfaction on the streets."

Not exactly in line with contemporary social mores (or biology), for sure.
[all quotes from 'kipedia, a really handy site for quick RESEARCH]

But all this raises the question: So what? Are we talking about the morality/ethics of abortion, or the historical roots of a particular organization?
Or are we just throwing assertions out there, inerrantly?

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim Tanger!

You're STILL wanted on the Texas thread.

The charges are:

- Turning tail and running like a yellow cur when asked a pointed question
- Ignoring a duly served warrant
- Failing to bring enough gum for everyone

They're waiting for you over there (with increasingly less patience). Come quietly. There's a good lad.

The point is, abortion has caused more deaths than pro-life activists.

God has killed more babies than all the abortionists combined.

Michelle R. #59 mentions the Norwegian Black-Metal crowd as promoting church arson... one thing to note is some of them claim to be Odinists ("the occult philosophy [???] that underpins Black Metal"), hence their hostility to Christianity.

See In the face of death from The Guardian...

She's like Vox Day with a vagina.

But surely this gentle soul Gingi encourages the sex education of children, and ready access to birth control materials, yes? 'Cause in places where information and materials are readily available, the young folks have less sex; when they have less sex, they are less likely to get pregnant, and if they get pregnant they are less likely to have an abortion.

Because it's all about the fertilized clumps of cells, and not punishing girls who have sex, right?

...right?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html
"Teen pregnancy rates are much higher in the United States than in many other developed countries-twice as high as in England and Wales or Canada, and eight times as high as in the Netherlands or Japan."

"Eighty-two percent of teen pregnancies are unplanned; they account for about one in five of all unintended pregnancies annually."

"Pro-choicers claim to care for young girls – all while advocating protecting the men who rape and molest them."

You mean like condemning an abortion to save the life of a nine year old girl and declaring said abortion worse than the rape that put her in that position in the first place, and having a history of protecting pedophiles?

By uknesvuinng (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

For your information, Gingi, I am pro-choice. However, I do not defend molesters and rapists. She simply strings together every imaginable slur and somehow turns all of it into an incoherent, babbling mess.

I've always found it to be a waste of time to debate the anti-choice people, much in the same way you're sure to go crazy trying to argue with an I.D.iot. It's as though we don't even use the same language. We certainly cannot agree on what it means to be a human from a moral perspective. And we can't agree on what makes being human special and, thus, worthy of protection. So when it come to the likes of this Gigi person, it makes no sense to send her emails attempting to explain to her why she's wrong, as she will NEVER see any other side to this issue than her own. In fact, she thinks there is no other side.

In her mind, hate mail and threats only serve to reinforce her position. Granted, these people need to be put in their place, so, in principle, I can eagerly get behind giving her a good tongue-lashing. Not that it will make a difference to someone such as Gigi. But death threats??

(I know I'm making the unwarranted assumption Gigi is being honest regarding the threats. Given her willingness to play fast-and-loose with the facts, I would not be surprised to learn she is exaggerating the situation or just plain lying.)

Cephus | #38:

I was going to say... 30 men had abortions? What color is the sky in her world? I also don't get the differentiation between "145 pregnant women" and "360 abortion clients". Is she suggesting that 360 women who were not pregnant had abortions anyhow?

Why are these people so goddamn stupid?

Are you saying that men and non-pregnant women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions? *points finger at you dramatically* THAT'S DISCRIMINATION, Y'KNOW!

Seriously, though. Where on earth did this woman get her figures from?

By Aphrodine (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication. For science cannot conclusively prove that all religions are false! Science does not have all of the answers. You are scientific robots.

#52

When I die, I will be quite excited (as a scientist) to find out what is in store for me and which particular God is going to be displeased with me. If you are there, I'll tell you you were (partly) right all along before Ra takes you away for 'special treatment'. Fortunately for my current peace of mind (I find it difficult to choose a starter, let alone a god) _all_ the current evidence is that I won't be in any position to notice anything about it.

I have a great little dog named Ginger who has more sense. I'd encourage my Ginger to accidentally pee on the other one's foot (that's not too harmful, is it? I'd draw the line at biting-- bad for my Ginger).

By Faithful Reader (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

The fact is these children being aborted have potential life. Would you have wanted your mother to abort you?? You could be aborting the next Richard Dawkins for all you know.

You could also be aborting a murderer or pedophile.

Sigh, the shit-fer-brains, "what if?" scenario, regularly regurgitated by the forced-birth crowd.

At any rate, I figure I owe my existence to my grandmother's two abortions. Had she carried those pregnancies to term, she probably never would have met my grandfather and had my mother. I reckon a lot of us are around because some female ancestor had an abortion, changing the course of her life in such a way that led to our existence. So, yeah, I'm "pro-abortion."

When all of you die and are thrown before Christ, I will stand there and smile in vindication.

So much for Christian love and forgiveness.

I WISH I were a scientific robot... then I would have to use a calculator to balance my check book.

It would certainly help me do my taxes. Oy, the 15th approaches.

By adobedragon (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

God has killed more babies than all the abortionists combined.

Today's the last day of Passover, when we celebrate God's slaughter of all the little Egyptian first-born sons!

Of course, God and his angels--being total fucking morons--couldn't tell the Jews and the Egyptians apart (and yet Jesus sees right into your heart!) and so the Jews had to daub their doorways with blood lest Yahweh McfuckingGoo forget his goddamn spectacles.

How fucking stupid does one have to be to actually believe this shit?

Lets have a return to the good old Victorian values that these xians seem to favour.

During the 1890s in the UK 'One professional abortionist even offered a plan by which any number of abortions would be performed on a woman for £15 a year'1 and if you didn't want to have an extremely dangerous, this is before antibiotics or even good hygiene, you could attempt to acquire 'Diachylon'2 a lead based abortifacient, known for creating epidemics of lead poisoning. Indeed, just one advertiser of abortifacients3 had the custom of 12,000 women over the course of 30 months.

Yep, the abortion problem has really mushroomed since legalisation and the sexual revolution of the 1960s torn down those good old values.

1 'Infanticide and Abortion in Nineteenth-Century Britain' R. Sauer, Population Studies, Vol. 32, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pg. 91.
2 loc cit.
3 loc cit.

By Akheloios (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Pro-choicers claim to care for young girls – all while advocating protecting the men who rape and molest them.

Protecting men who rape and molest young people. Sounds like the Catholic Church. What's their stance on abortion, again?

Steve #145

I've always found it to be a waste of time to debate the anti-choice people, much in the same way you're sure to go crazy trying to argue with an I.D.iot.

QFT

By 'Tis Himself (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

@myself at 151

*'an extremely dangerous medical procedure'

poot.

By Akheloios (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Hmm, just been reading Jim's comments (probably a mistake).

#68:

It's a well known fact that some scientists are beginning to doubt evolution. It's just an unprovable human theory.

So's gravity. So why don't you do us all a favor, take a good, big jump up - and not come down again?

I would like to see you guys contradict Janine.

Why would we want to contradict someone who is making a very good point?

#91:

Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist and racist, promoter of eugenics, etc. RESEARCH.

And Hitler liked dogs. So?

#123:

The point is, abortion has caused more deaths than pro-life activists. Show me statistics to prove otherwise.

No, Jim, you're getting it wrong, again. You don't throw out random claims, then challenge people to disprove them. You make claims, then provide evidence to back them up.

Jim Tanger, it's really hard to remember what it's like to run into people like you. Thanks for that refresher. Not only are your infantile revenge fantasies showing, but you also ably demonstrate your seething contempt for reason. It makes one wish they could send fundies back in time to live in the 17th cen. where they might feel more comfortable.

And BTW, I don't care if the creator of Planned Parenthood was a bloodthirsty, communist, ape-copulating, fetus-eating, troglodyte, who chained small animals in her basement to feed aborted fetuses to; it does not diminish the fundamental reason or equality behind legal abortions.

Today's the last day of Passover, when we celebrate God's slaughter of all the little Egyptian first-born sons!

I vote we symbolically drink their blood in victory.

Since Christ's blood is wine, Jews must be wine. Thus, I nominate beer to be Egyptian blood.

Cheers!

Guys, did you know that the woman who helped form what we now know as Planned Parenthood was a socialist and racist, promoter of eugenics, etc.

Jim, did you know that the man that Christianity worships was a Jew?

By Nominal Egg (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

#157 is, of course, an ethics-challenged morality troll.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I should clarify, since it will no doubt soon disappear, that I refer to a #157 that was a PZ Myers spoof-comment. Really low.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

NB: #163 should of course refer to #157, not #156. Assuming they are still #163, #157, and #156 when you read this. And that you're using base ten.

The problem with all these anti-abortion idiots is that they just don’t understand the naturalistic fallacy. Look: an embryo is a clump of cells, and therefore ought not to be treated as if it were a human being. What’s so hard to understand about that?

I vote we symbolically drink their blood in victory.

Since Christ's blood is wine, Jews must be wine. Thus, I nominate beer to be Egyptian blood.

Beer! Yay!

By Nominal Egg (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

highland park planned parenthood? fine single malt whisky and reproductive autonomy - a winning combination.

Posted by: bonze | April 8, 2009 5:24 PM

Michelle R. #59 mentions the Norwegian Black-Metal crowd as promoting church arson... one thing to note is some of them claim to be Odinists ("the occult philosophy [???] that underpins Black Metal"), hence their hostility to Christianity.

See In the face of death from The Guardian...

Woah... Really? I'm almost stuck between "they're despicable!" and "Hail Odin!" (Almost. Burn buildings out of spite and you're not my friend.)

The only one of them I ever saw was the guy on Headbanger's Journey. Creepy guy sipping on wine and speaking of Satan. I actually edged away from my screen. Not that I'm scared of Satan... But wine guy sure puts one show.

By Michelle R (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

adam,

Single Malt?! You atheists are elitists!

Posted by: Jim Tanger | April 8, 2009 4:17 PM

PZ, you would not want any more car accidents. The fact is these children being aborted have potential life. Would you have wanted your mother to abort you?? You could be aborting the next Richard Dawkins for all you know.

Not likely. The odds are much more favorable that she'd just be flushing a uteral turd that would be forgotten even faster than it was ever concieved (i.e., another little Jim Tanger.) To answer your original question: yes, if I were you, I'd want my mother to abort me.

Eat a bag of flaming dicks.

By j.t.delaney (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

JT said:

Even Einstein said that religion and science were not mutually exclusive. The point is, abortion has caused more deaths than pro-life activists. Show me statistics to prove otherwise.

So, you're going to make an ill-defined statistical claim, provide no evidence in support of it, and then demand that we cite disproof of your claim? Do the words "burden of proof" mean anything to you, Jim?

By Josh in California (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

#147: Seriously, though. Where on earth did this woman get her figures from?

She made 'em up, of course. Same place all these religious windbags get their ideas.

As a former member of several AOL chat rooms (I know, I know...) I really think the IGNORE function ought to be applied to blithering tighty whitey wearing mouth breathing nincompoops such as Jim Tanger. ANY acknowledgement of their infantile ramblings makes their day. Ignore him/her/it/them and they go away, whining all the while.

By snakefoot (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Maybe the "30 men" were actually pre-op trannys? I don't think i want to go there, especially with the question "marriage" in the other post.

I wish the sodding rapture would get here...then some of the rational can get a tad of peace quite and overindulge (if possible) in flagrant hell raising...

Xians like Gingi & Jim Tanger seem suited to spend eternity gazing into each others bloated ignorance...sometimes evolution plays nasty tricks...AIDS... EBOLA...Fundamentalist wackaloons!

By Strangebrew (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Again, a plea to retain comment numbers when cleaning out the banned & morphing. Instead of making them completely disappear, couldn't a "comment deleted for cause" placeholder be inserted?

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim and Gingi sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G!!!
First came love. Then came marriage.
Then came baby in a baby carriage!

Name suggestions: Dimwit Tanger or Halfwit Tanger

Strangebrew @176

"I wish the sodding rapture would get here"

According to an otherwise intelligent colleague of mine governments really should be working out how to cope with the post-rapture world because whilst nobody can say exactly when it will come we are most certainly living in the end times, so it'll be coming along any day now (the dumb is strong in this one!).

Now, if only those evil scientists could figure out how to build a device that would lift these ignorant sky fairy worshippers to their rapture, eh?

I know! Yes, gadzooks I think I've got it!

No more cracker disrespect, no! Instead strong hallucinogens to be introduced into the communion wine of the xtians, impregnate the jewish kippahs with the same, combined with a bit of hypnotic suggestion from the minarets of the islamics, get them all stoned then cart the whole dumb lot off to Utah and voila! Peace on Earth :-)

So anyone who is pro-choice, and committed murder for any reason, is tossed into the evil murdering pro-abort statistic.

The long-time leader of the most militant anti-choice cadre in north central Florida found Jesus, and his present vocation, while doing time for homicide.

Ed Martin, the pro-life murderer, seems to have made a pretty good career of it, for someone with zero employment prospects in any other endeavor.

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Hitler was pro-life. He outlawed abortion.

In fact, in 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion." The Nazis created a federal bureau to prevent abortion.

/godwin

...So, you could say that pro-life activists are responsible for millions of deaths.

Jim, #83:

isnt it odd that only Christianity doesnt have doubters! BAM! becuase you all know its true if you doubt you are not a Christian so only true believers believe so the beliefs of the true believers must be true or they wouldnt believe them!

That is the most entangled No True Scotsman I have ever seen.

I believe Jim is missing on a few cylinders. I have no doubts about that, so I must truly believe it, so it must be true because I am a true believer and I believe it. If it were not true, I wouldn't believe it.

Makes sense, Jim?

I'm sorry but I have to do this. It's an OCD kind of thing.

"Posted by: Jim Tanger | April 8, 2009 4:26 PM

I speak the inerrant word of God."

He's dead. He's dead Jim

Ok, that settles it--there are too many Highland Parks in this country.

There's one here in IL, the one in MN, and others in FL, NJ, MI, and TX.

Back in October, I posted in my blog about a load of tripe in an article Gingi wrote, and someone claiming to be her sister posed as an interested commenter, then let loose on me. Total wingnut. This latest from Gingi makes me think that it may really have been her sister-they're both madder than 'Mad' Jack McMad winner of last years 'Mr Madman' competition.

I assume Gingi didn't know that 73.1% of all statistics are made up. In the words of Jim Tanger, if you disagree, show me the statistics to prove me wrong!

Regarding these Easter MisogynyNow protests:
For several years my wife was subject to a Gingi-type woman protesting at the women's health clinic where she worked. Placards, chanting, obstruction, physical intimidation, the whole thing. Then one day this very same woman, who was early middle-aged, showed up on the inside of the clinic to have an abortion performed. There eyes met, with an understanding of the irony involved.

In response to the usual questions (eg., have you thought this through, etc.), the woman said that her circumstances were unlike all the other people getting abortions: she was 40, had a career, didn't have the time or energy to raise another child, that the pregnancy was unplanned...

By scudbucket (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

My (limited) window into the antis' plans for Good Friday reveals events slated for -
* Northern Adirondack Planned Parenthood in Plattsburgh, NY;
* Planned Parenthood in Aurora, IL;
* Albany Surgical Medical Center, Chicago, IL;
* Planned Parenthood, Baltimore, MD;
* Planned Parenthood, Annapolis, MD;
* the Mall & White House in Washington, DC (not sure whether the DC PP is in range of same, but a potential target of a "spontaneous" demo).

Please pass along luv 'n' kisses from Pierce!

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Is the idea of having counter demonstrations a new one? Or is this routine? It's such a good idea, all success with it; if it were in the UK I'd try to join in myself.
Scudbucket - that's awful. Did she not even have the shame to go somewhere else? I suppose it must have crossed your minds to somehow "out" her - but equally you would all have strong ethics and that would go against all of them. Oh, the irony!

I was trying to figure out some of those numbers. Maybe wanted preborn would be where women came in for an amnio and due to an error they miscarried. Miscarriage is known in medical-ese as a (dum dum dum) spontanious abortion. So there you go although I would think the number would be higher given the numbers each year.

As to the men, maybe they count men that die in accidents on the way? That number sounds about right given the number that die in MVA each year.

scudbucket @ #191: Check out the article at the link below, it's full of stories like that. Pretty much every story runs along the similar theme of "Those women are whores! My abortion is different! Those women are whores!" It made laugh and cry at the same time.

[url]http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html[/url]

By Captain Mike (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Returning for a moment to the original topic: death treats? Who would want to do that? Someone with a grudge, maybe, who'd like to make PZ look bad? Simon would certainly fit the bill, as might Kwok, or even Jim T, for that matter.

Either that, or they're fictitious.

Rev. BDC,

Some dumbass playing games. PZ busted him

where was that?

Maybe wanted preborn would be where women came in for an amnio and due to an error they miscarried.

It wouldn't have to be due to an error: miscarriage is a known risk of amniocentesis. The "wanted preborn" might also be fetuses with malformations whose parents chose abortion rather than completing the pregnancy and watching a real, living, breathing baby die in front of them.

Does "preborn" sound like "preowned" to anyone else? It makes fetuses sound like the cheap end of the adoption market: "OK, normally adopting a baby will cost you $50K but you can get a preborn for just under $35K." Quite twisted.

For the last six years I've worked as as volunteer escort at our local Planned Parenthood clinic for four to six hours one day a week. I've seen everything. The antis say and do anything to support their position mostly making up facts from the gruesome photos they put up of dead fetuses who are anywhere from 20 or 21 to 30+ weeks old, to claims that abortion causes breast and cervical cancer, to its history of destroying one's mental health and marriage. Their literature claims that condoms don't work and always leak, that pharmaceutical contraception has horrendous side effects, that Planned Parenthood's clinics are unclean and that many women are carried away on gurneys from botched abortions.

But the real prize is that they have the gall to call themselves sidewalk counselors, yet insult patients, companions, staff, and escorts alike without favor. And then wonder why no pays them any heed. After watching and listening to them through the years, I've come to realize that they are all up tight about sex and believe that any woman seeking an abortion is a slut. Some even say so. But they are so uptight that they can't conceive or won't admit that sex has any other function in human society than making babies. Even the few, the very, very few, with whom I can have a civil conversation see all the patients as sluts, without knowing a thing about one of them. They're vile people.

Has anybody else pointed out that even if it were true that some pro-choice advocates had resorted to violence--they certainly would NEVER be celebrated as heroes to the cause, something that is true for Gingi's brand of anti-abortionism?

By kencabbit (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

I should add that Jim Tanger is quite typical of the antis. Smug, self-righteous, ignorant and insulting. And I'll bet he thinks that women who seek abortions at Planned Parenthood use abortion as birth control. I see the statistics and he's wrong. Very, very few women, on the order of one percent, ever seek a second abortion. Some are emotionally overwrought women, but so is an equal proportion, and possible a larger portion, of women who carry pregnancies to term: ( Think octomom! ) What the antis are also unwilling to acknowledge is that the abortion rate has always been a function of the availability of effective and simple birth control. In places where contraception is illegal, like Latin America, abortion rates are the highest in the world, despite the Catholic Churche's smug satisfaction that abortion is illegal. In places where birth control is easily available, and incidentally abortion legal, like western Europe, abortions rates are the lowest in the world. The US falls in between given that some states make getting an abortion a trial by fire, especially for those without affluence. Also US abortion rates didn't rise with Roe v. Wade. Abortion fled the back alleys and found a place in clean clinics and doctors offices where the procedure can be done with safety. The rates remained much the same, but now they were legal.

Keanus at #203:

I should add that Jim Tanger is quite typical of the antis.

Turns out Jim Tanger was busted as another poster "posing" as a fundamentalist.

See: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/04/she_will_have_no_choice.php

Somewhere around the 200s posts, PZ calls him out. Poster otherwise known simply as Matt.

Which is not to say that your comments don't apply to so many of the self-righteous. In your years as a volunteer, you must've seen every kind of verbal depravity aimed at individuals in the throes of a challenging, difficult, emotional circumstance. Thanks for volunteering, and for posting.

No kings,

Robert

By Desert Son (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Desert Son is quite correct. Kindly disregard any and all comments that you see from Jim Tanger on the former "pages" of this discussion. I have already e-mailed Mr. Myers in a respectful and civil manner.

Now, off to debate Roy Comfort!

Their literature claims that condoms don't work and always leak, that pharmaceutical contraception has horrendous side effects, that Planned Parenthood's clinics are unclean and that many women are carried away on gurneys from botched abortions.

Noticed that the so called pro lifers also are anti contraception. Which is absurd, one would think they would be handing out condoms and other BC to anyone who looks adolescent or older.

Outlawing abortion won't stop it. The rich and middle class will just go out of country and the poor will just get illegal ones, just like before it was legalized.

The way to stop it is common sense.

1. Make contraception widely available, cheap and/or free to everyone.

2. Hammer it into the kids heads early and often that responsible adults plan their families. Teach them BC until they can do it dead drunk. They may need that and sooner than you think.

3. Spend whatever it takes to develop newer and better contraception. We spent a trillion in Iraq for no point and who knows how many trillions bailing out Wall Street crooks for equally as murky reasons. A few billions or tens of billions for BC research would be a drop in the bucket.

In fact, some countries do the above. Guess what. Their abortion rates are far lower than the US, up to 10X lower.

Goes to show what the so called pro lifers really are. Antihuman malevolent, evil, wingnuts. But everyone already knew that.

Keanus @ # 201: ...they are all up tight about sex and believe that any woman seeking an abortion is a slut.

Some friends & I were called in years ago when a church group was making a nuisance of itself at a local clinic. There was one man more or less in charge, addressed by the others as "Deacon", who stared blatantly at the chests of patients & female escorts while licking his lips.

The male escorts didn't have to say a word - we just enjoyed the show (& lurked menacingly to discourage physical initiatives) while our distaff members provided, um, feedback. Amazingly, that group even came back... once.

By Pierce R. Butler (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Sorta reminds me of Frollo from Notre Dame. He covets that which he also seeks to prosecute for their sins: the gypsy girls seeking refuge around Paris.

Gingi is clearly not on speaking terms with reality. Shame that doesn't keep her from speaking and irritating the rest of us with her raving.

By OctoberMermaid (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Gingi, honey; remember the doctor said to take your medicine every day.

By GILGAMESH (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

"Try to imagine the uproar the same people would raise if a pro-lifer published a book entitled How to Trash Abortion Clinics!"

Gingi, you need to read more, I guess you did not know about "The Army of God Manual." The last five chapters are 'secret'. Perhaps The Army of God is worried about conspiracy to commit murder charges?

By GILGAMESH (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

@Matt

Dude, at least Frollo had awesome lines to use to hide his hypocrisy:

"And he shall smite the wicked and plunge them into the fiery pit!"

"The time has come, gypsy. You stand upon the brink of the abyss. Yet even now it is not too late. I can save you from the flames of this world, and the next. Choose me, or the fire!"

Short concise, and evil. Sure he was a total a-hole and a perv, but at least he had good poetic flair. Kind of like my English Lit. professor.

What's Gingi got?

"It's astounding that the open-minded abortion-loving crew can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of hostility towards buildings that house infanticide and mass assembly-line slaughter, all while they support and applaud the regular targeting of churches, synagogues, forestry companies, corporate and university-based medical research laboratories, medical-supply firms, fur farms and other industrial buildings."

Ugh. Text wall.

By Twin-Skies (not verified) on 08 Apr 2009 #permalink

Ok, so abortions go straight to heaven since the pope reversed old popes -- I guess that omnipotent god changed his mind? -- and heaven is the ultimate paradise, so shouldn't abortion be praised? Its sending children straight to god!

besides, god kills more children through starvation and disease than any human ever could.

I'll admit it, I laugh when churches burn down (provided no people are harmed, of course). I certainly don't endorse arson, however; I just find it absolutely ironic and hilarious when gods can't protect their own houses.

Wow, Jim Tanger, you are by far the best troll I have seen in a while.

Look at all these lovely provocative messages intended to get people riled up - you have laid down death threats which you seem to be taking great pleasure from, how magnificently Christian of you.

Again I am going to have to put this down to sexual frustration - he is not allowed to masturbate cos he might be killing off a potential Jesus for all he has been indoctrinated to believe so what to do? ( What is it with you religious people and sex?)

Go yell at the atheists!

"You are all going to die and I shall smile and be smug" type of posts start crapping all over the scene - lets see what the baby killers do about this!

So after the death threats where does our troll go next?

The good olde Evolution is wrong, scientists are beginning to doubt it argument!

That's it, keep it going Jim - though you might want to get a clothes peg or clamp of some sort on the old chap there in case any life escapes from you getting too excited.

Is there a provocative issue you haven't touched on yet?

Ohh let me see - Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler were atheists argument - always a good one. You have attacked science, why not butcher a bit of history too?

What else have you got that I can laugh at?

Jim you are a joke.

I say everybody mock him, don't get angry with him.

I'd have thought he would be too busy to post such crap whilst desperately nailing his right hand to the table lest he finally follow the path of Onan - but here he is and what a silly man he is indeed.

The forced pregnancy brigade should just eat sprouting seeds as they regard gestating forms to be equivalent to the finished product. So no more apples, squash, corn, broccoli, strawberries for you guys!

Forgive me for helping prolong the idea that atheists use unnecessary profanity, but I'm ignoring the little bitch til she gets a few years under her belt and stops being a starry-eyed post-high-school activist. There's no point in arguing with the brainwashed and self-righteous.

"Pro-choicers claim to care for young girls – all while advocating protecting the men who rape and molest them."

Ugh. If I have a dime for every time I heard this heartless pile of shit, Bill Gates would bow to me.

She's basically saying that if we don't force sexual abuse victims to carry to term and give birth to the rapist's baby, there's no way to prove the girl was raped.

Not only is she batshit crazy, she's flat out evil. She's advocating such abuse to be heaped on already victimized people because she's obsessed with imaginary babies. She is on sick, perverted psycho.

and suddenly the comments take a sharp turn

Yes, is it just me or did others hear the music stop with the sound like the needle skittering across the scratched record just like the cliché? As if thousands of comments suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. ...

Uh oh, here we go again...

Holydust, I just chastised someone on another thread from falsely accusing someone of using that word, so I guess I'm obligated to point out: We don't use that word around here. If for no other reason (though other reasons do exist) in that it leads to interminable non-productive, well, I wouldn't call them "discussions", how about "contretemps".

By Don't Panic (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink

Jim Tanger

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

According to the same book, no bastard shall ever enter the kingdom of heaven unto the tenth generation.

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

So, just from reading your book, carrying a child concieved out of wedlock to term is essentially ensuring its eternal damnation.

Not only is abortion not murder under Biblical morality, it is actually the moral choice for a religious single mother - after all, the alternative is ten generations of damned relatives.

It helps if you are going to claim mythology backs your argument to at least know your mythology.

By Bruce Gorton (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink

"The forced birth brigade should just eat sprouting seeds as they regard gestating forms to be equivalent to the finished product. So no more apples, squash, corn, broccoli, strawberries for you guys!"

Also, they can never throw away apple seeds, as that is exactly the same thing as cutting down an apple tree!

Please, please, could people stop "responding" to Jim/Tim Tanger/Janger. He was a simple sockpuppetting troll trying to get you all to dance to his little tune. PZ swatted him across the nose with a rolled up newspaper. Can you all please, for the love of all that is pasta-y, let him fade away.

By Don't Panic (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink

Stab them in the neck and suck out their brains? Zombie vampires!

Jim you are a joke.

Literally. And we all got suckered, and asshole Matt got off, but then he fauxpologized. He was probing minds in his unique way. Still reading, Matt? Bite me.

By Sven DiMilo (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink

I strongly doubt that anyone threatened her life. If someone did, it was likely some sicko religious nut pretending to be an atheist, perhaps she herself, or her mama.

By gingivitis (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink

You could be aborting the next Richard Dawkins for all you know.

Or the next Adolf Hitler.

Or the next Jefferey Dahmer, or the next Pol Pot, or the next Charles Manson, or some random insignificant guy who never really accomplishes anything.

By Laser Potato (not verified) on 09 Apr 2009 #permalink