Episode XL: An Australian romance

I'm going to be in some post-GAC funk until TAM in November.

Tell me about it, already there.....

What was his talk like today ?

Josh-

Mink? I hear that. ;)

My little furry, purring bundle of self-absorption is named Mishu. She's a Manx/lavender Siamese hybrid (the siamese looks are dominant) and she has a voice like a siamese.

I'm her bitch.

You know the old saying-
Dogs have owners
But cats have staff.

RickR,

I did, of course, name her after Mink Stole. And yes, I serve her, as all cats demand. She's the only pussy that can make me obey.

My little furry, purring bundle of self-absorption is named Mishu.

Sounds fucking adorable;)

Sounds fucking adorable;)

I see you've met.:)

What was his talk like today ?

Quite interesting, he basically read a part of his book then there was a long Q&A. All the while John Wilkins was standing (from my view) over his shoulder watching like a cheetah stalking a zebra.

All the while John Wilkins was standing (from my view) over his shoulder watching like a cheetah stalking a zebra.

/kw*k

he mentioned that he was there on FB, but nothing about the Zebra bit...:-)

/end kw*k

Did you get to talk to John ? And is PZ heading home tomorrow already ?

he mentioned that he was there on FB, but nothing about the Zebra bit...:-)

He just had that look about him.

Did you get to talk to John ?

I did on Friday night, though I wasn't sure that the person who introduced himself as John was the John. So I got to ask him a few questions about philosophical issues, and now I'm really confused over the term philosophical naturalism. But yeah, really interesting guy.

So I got to ask him a few questions about philosophical issues, and now I'm really confused over the term philosophical naturalism

:D :D :D

With all the progress I've made in recent times learning about biology and philosophy, there's nothing like being brought back down into a state of complete epistemic ignorance like conversing with John Wilkins and PZ Myers.

there's nothing like being brought back down into a state of complete epistemic ignorance like conversing with John Wilkins and PZ Myers.

This is what happened to me conversing with AC Grayling.
Biology, I might be able to hold my own, but philosophy, no chance, I have to work on that.

Carlie at #452 - While waiting for the coffee to finish brewing this morning I followed your link to the RationalWiki description of Johnny AKA Qkwok. Yoko asked me why I was laughing so I read parts aloud to her, Susan Sontag and Sophia Loren. Richard Dawkins and I then did a quick Google of the Qkwok ourselves while Elvis and Jim Morrison made French toast.

A short fifteen minutes produced the following:

Selections from Qkwok’s Amazon Profile:

“In My Own Words:
I was once a data analyst at a prominent medical school; I am a SAS programmer/analyst currently working in Institutional Research, at a prominent New York City college.”

(Anyone see a pattern here?)

We have all seen Qkwok claim that he was close to Frank McCourt. In fact, in a further selection from his Amazon Profile we learn: “An aspiring author, I was fortunate to have been a prize-winning student in Frank McCourt's creative writing class during my junior year...”. And in another posting he again states that he was, “a former prize-winning student of Frank McCourt's at Stuyvesant High School”.

Fascinating. However, I also found this comment by the Qkwok to a memoriam written by an obvious protege of McCourt at SHS: “‘Tis amazing Liz. Your poignant, eloquent, remarks remind me so much of what I had enjoyed for two wonderful semesters during my junior year at Stuy (And I might add that his class was a wonderful respite from my science and mathematics classes, even as my world back then was devoted almost exclusively to science.). Well remembered and well said, my fellow alumnnus. (spelling errors as found)

Hmm, not as quick to claim close kinship in a comment to someone who actually had a relationship, eh?

The SHS paper, or web site or something mentions a John Kwok ‘78 who reported about “
an award-winning essay that he submitted to a citywide competition that earned second prize and either $100 or $200“.

In a Brown Univ Alumni note, we find the following: “John Kwok (AB ’83): My year has been unusually busy and productive. I’ve been fortunate to have borrowed several lenses from Carl Zeiss to photograph Central Park, a Brooklyn street fair and the New York City Marathon within the past few months (I am hoping to share my work with Zeiss in exchange for photographic equipment.).

(Ah, the birth of the lust for photographic equipment!)

I will not address the postings wherein he call McCourt his “father”, metaphorically I hope. Nor do I want to get into the post where he chides the fans of McCourt for wanting to be at the memorial service versus the rights of those who knew him and “watched him die”. Way too much there for anyone except a qualified therapist. Plus, I felt a little unclean after reading them.

Finally, I contacted famous psychic and consultant to the dead Sylvia Brown and ask her to check with McCourt about Johnny. According to her, it was mostly unfocused sputtering, but she thinks Frank said something about the it only being a loan and when is Johnny going to return the freaking Leica? Of course, people like her mostly make things up.

Some people have compared reading Qkwok to watching a train wreck. I think of more like watching a dog trying to pass a peach pit - lots of shaking, some howling, straining and squirming, but in the end, just another bowel movement.

Gotta go, Eleanor Roosevelt and Helen of Troy look like they are coming to blows over a poker hand. Of course, Kafka is just egging them on.

Name dropper!

I would post at greater length, but I'm busy - Mozart's calling me from the main room, and we've got a scatological cantata to sing.

Let's not forget the March Equinox is at 1732 UT/GMT/Zulu today. This is the start of Spring in the civilized world and the end of Summer in Noo Zillund.

Some people have compared reading Qkwok to watching a train wreck. I think of more like watching a dog trying to pass a peach pit - lots of shaking, some howling, straining and squirming, but in the end, just another bowel movement. - JeffreyD

Quoted for hilarity. Seeya tomorrow, Jeffrey.

Well, that was weird.

So, I'm in my room, with my parents. My mother's cooking dinner, my father is perusing my books. He picks up Why Evolution is True and sees The God Delusion underneath.

He says, "You've got a Richard Dawkins book?"
I respond, "Yes. And a book by Jerry Coyne, and a book by Paul Shubin."

He says nothing, peruses the rest of my books, and proceeds to sit back on the couch.

Very odd.

@Usagi-chan:

I figure from your name you either know or are Japanese. I'm trying to learn. I've got most of the katakana and hiragana down and I'm working on understanding, and being able to write from memory, the kanji.

Glad you liked it Knock, was feeling a tad fey today, probably the brownies Ms. Toklas made.

See you Sunday at the place you suggested.

Ciao

My favorite Kw*k moment was during the Survivor Challenge when he was to write 200 words on "why are there monkeys" without mentioning his high school and couldn't.

He says, "You've got a Richard Dawkins book?"

Uhoh.
I guess for a fundie that's like some sort of giveaway, he has read the Antichrist !!
Thankfully my dad-in-law, when he looked at my books, was very interested and we talked about TGD a lot, I would never have picked him as an atheist before that.Just your typical aussie, not losing many words about religious affairs at all.

So, I'm in my room, with my parents. My mother's cooking dinner, my father is perusing my books. He picks up Why Evolution is True and sees The God Delusion underneath.

He says, "You've got a Richard Dawkins book?"
I respond, "Yes. And a book by Jerry Coyne, and a book by Paul Shubin."

He says nothing, peruses the rest of my books, and proceeds to sit back on the couch.

Very odd.

Neither of my parents have ever heard of Richard Dawkins.
But I suppose the equivalent would be finding a copy of The Advocate or Bear Magazine in my room.;)

Kevin @ 518

I don't speak Japanese as well as I should (having been married to a Japanese lady for... well let's just say in a couple of years time it will be decades (plural)), but now I'm living in Tokyo my Japanese is improving. My children are both fluent (in fact my daughter who is only four speaks mainly Japanese at home so its my turn to have to put the effort in to make sure she is properly bilingual), so I tend to be surrounded by Japanese.

I have found manga very helpful (especially with colloquial Japanese) for learning written Japanese. The kanji often have furigana, so they are easier to look up (nothing worse than having to try to work through a kanji dictionary by counting the number of strokes - takes ages and I always lose the thread of what I'm reading.

Interesting point - counted nouns have a descriptive suffix (eg ~pon/ ~hon for long thin things (bottles or pencils) or ~mai for flat things (sheets of paper but not books which are ~satsu). Small animals are usually counted ~hikki/ ~pikki except rabbits (actually the Japanese normally now use the small animal suffix for rabbits), but traditionally used ~wa the same as birds. Japanese Monks were historically forbidden from eating meat, except for birds, but they liked eating rabbit so much they simply re-classified it as a bird here is a full list and the monk story

"Yes. And a book by Jerry Coyne, and a book by Paul Shubin."

[pedant]

surely you mean Neil Shubin?

[/pedant]

Kevin - Well, I guess Shroedinger's cat is out of the bag and possibly dead. Still, they might just think you're "experimenting" with reading some weird stuff. Brace for some indirect questions about where and how often you're going to church these days.

@Ichthyic:

Wup, yeah. Neil, sorry.

It could be Paul Shubin.

Google is my friend.

Japanese Monks were historically forbidden from eating meat, except for birds, but they liked eating rabbit so much they simply re-classified it as a bird here is a full list and the monk story

It's good to see people of different faiths coming together.

uh...thanks...I guess, JeffreyD, for that little clown-shoed stroll down Kw*k-Memory Blvd. Seems like an appropriate time and place to re-link the classic prescient Amazon review of J*hn's novel in progress.

All my years as a nuclear mechanic working with high pressure steam systems and radioactive water piping have paid off. I've successfully replaced the lever arm in a toilet tank.

<Strains arm while patting self on back>

I am appalled by you reprehensible people talking about senseless killing of cats, and "joking" about "pussy." Your propensity for sexualized violence is obvious.

I'm going to write a letter to SEED Media, the ASPCA, and PETA insisting that they do something to PZ Myers for hosting a blog where random sexualized anti-cat violence is advocated.

You all owe me a new string of pearls; I clutched this one to a powder. I might accept a Leica rangefinder camera instead. (Sideways is okay; I like portrait photography. I once took a prize-winning portrait of my mentor Frank McCourt at Stuyvesant High School. I got $100 for that. Stuyvesant High School is the best high school in the world.)

I will be forwarding this to PZ's colleagues and the president of Brown University, suggesting that they pressure him into making sure you comply with this entirely reasonable request.

I found a dime once. That reminded me of winning $100 for a prize-winning picture of my mentor, Frank McCourt, who taught at my alma mater, which is the best high school in the universe.

You see, I sleep on my belly; I actually like the pressure

Ooh. I have this tendency. Pretty sure that in my case it is not Asperger's in my case though. For some reason I am comforted by this pressure.

And then she explicitly refused to diagnose me because she feared I'd hide behind the diagnosis...

I wonder what gave her that idea ...

(But disturbing if she was unaware of the condition.)

Wow... my sentence appears to have ADD though.

Paul W,

We have read your complaint and have forwarded it to our Kuala Lumpur office for further action.

We will be happy to send you a Leica M7 camera upon receipt of $4595.99 (small bills only, the equivalent in Canadian dollars or Euros is acceptable).

Oh yes, congratulations on finally graduating from high school.

Sincerely,
The Mouthpiece for Josh Official SpokesGay LLP

David Marjanović @ 429 in Episode XXXIX:

You should mention the principle of parsimony somewhere in your rant. :-)

OK. Here's a pull quote:

The fact that a hypothesis is unfalsifiable is simply not a reason to avoid the usual scientific practice of making and educated scientific guess that it's wrong. Calling something a "religious" belief does not exempt it from the principle of parsimony, and in fact strongly suggests that parsimony is applicable. We know empirically that the principle of parsimony applies to typical religious beliefs, due to the striking failure of intersubjective agreement among the religious. To exempt any particular religion or religious belief from this scientific principle would require a special argument for that particular religion or religious belief.

Of course, it got a little longer than that. :-/

http://scienceblogs.com/authority/2010/03/more_on_the_material_and_meta…

http://scienceblogs.com/authority/2010/03/more_on_the_material_and_meta…

I might have overdone it a bit. Gotta figure out how to edit that stuff down to being punchy, some day.

if you need a place to store recipes other than these threads, I can set up a web-page for this purpose, if someone already isn't doing that.

Please do. It'd be nice with something a bit more reliable than the search function. A wiki perhaps?

Jadehawk can has kitteh.

Don't give David any ideas.

...

Actually, scratch that. But all means do give him ideas.

All my years as a nuclear mechanic working with high pressure steam systems and radioactive water piping have paid off. I've successfully replaced the lever arm in a toilet tank.

Sorry, but you'll get an F for that. Not a single mention of the 43rd president of the United States of America. For shame.

Now this is a rant:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/why_oh_why_cant_i_have_someth…

Paul W., OM

Sockpuppet.

But I'll grant you that you kept your cover quite well. I guess you waited till you got the OM, so you could rub our noses in it.

(Why, yes, I can't be bothered to type up a single post with all my inane comments.)

Speaking of lefties, righties and kittehs: Dummkatz insists on sleeping on my left when he feels the need to snuggle. Dunno if it's just because that's the outside of the bed, or if it's my hard. Does cause a bit of trouble when I put down my book and he's fallen asleep, since I prefer to sleep on my side. Lately he's removed to the foot end, though, for some reason. Most like because I only cover my feet with the extra blanket now.

'Tis Himself,
Wonder if you've come across the latest attempt by economists to revoke the laws of physics. In this case, it is a paper by two Israeli economists (Regenweiss and Beenstock) where they attempt to "disprove" greenhouse forcing of the current warming epoch by showing that the warming and the forcing have different integration orders. In effect they wind up contending that global temperature is a random walk.

Of course, this analysis is flawed on so many levels (failure to consider the physics, failure to consider other forcings besides CO2, etc.) that it's astounding the authors didn't wake up and just hit the delete key. However the climate denialosphere is calling it the "nail in the coffin". I think that what this shows is that usually the researchers (be they economists, engineers or physicists) who utter stupid things in fields outside their expertise are usually second rate even in their own fields.

I'd like to take this endless open thread as an opportunity to whore this link out to any atheists, gay rights supporters, and/or internet trolls who might be reading this:

http://www.kobrascorner.com/assholery/comic-04.php

a_ray_in_dilbert_space $542

Wonder if you've come across the latest attempt by economists to revoke the laws of physics.

That's what happens when experts in one field try to pontificate in a completely different, highly technical field. They end up looking like idiots.

When I discuss AGW I limit myself to the economic, political and sociological consequences of global warming. I know I'm incompetent to discuss the science of AGW so I don't even try.

I think that what this shows is that usually the researchers (be they economists, engineers or physicists) who utter stupid things in fields outside their expertise are usually second rate even in their own fields.

I've never heard of Regenweiss and Beenstock so I don't know what their reputations as economists are. However I'd be careful about denigrating them as economists for talking out of their asses on AGW. Linus Pauling was a first rate chemist who had some really nutty ideas about the health benefits of vitamin C.

Now this is a rant:

wow.

No shit; homeopathic starfart!

[repost because of fucking euphemism week]

Really really REALLY late to this one, but:

Jadehawk #124:

And now, some Psychobilly:

I am now totally, completely, and utterly smitten* with you. Having a huge, varied musical catalog is something that I've always prided myself on, but it's a rare thing to find someone else who has an appreciation for psychobilly (the Necromantix in particular).

*Don't worry, I'll respect you in the morning.

Kw*k, @ Hammond:

As an interesting anecdote, I have spoken to a fellow Ivy League-educated conserative who sells anti-Obama buttons on fair weather weekends in Central Park. Here, in New York City, of all places, people have been clamoring for Obama to assume room temperature (to use a familiar Limbaugh phrase) via means similar to what transpired with Garfield, McKinley, and, regrettably, both Lincoln and Kennedy. Of course, being a sensible man, he’s been utterly shocked by such responses. So if this can happen here in the Big Apple, can you imagine what others elsewhere in the country might be thinking?

they attempt to "disprove" greenhouse forcing of the current warming epoch by showing that the warming and the forcing have different integration orders. In effect they wind up contending that global temperature is a random walk. - a_ray_in_dilbert_space

Can you explain "different integration orders"? (My maths is A-level - somewhat above high school in US terms I guess, as the UK system specialises more, includes some calculus and simple ODEs, plus some subsequent self-education and stats courses.)

I am now totally, completely, and utterly smitten* with you. Having a huge, varied musical catalog is something that I've always prided myself on, but it's a rare thing to find someone else who has an appreciation for psychobilly (the Necromantix in particular).

Love it. Saw the Horrorpops at Warped Tour last summer, and have been in love with the genre since. It's so gloriously bipolar :-p

Jadehawk talks about finding a stray cat. I am rereading the Day One Of Pharyngula Survivor thread. What a grand, epic and funny thread that was.(I would never inflict oral sex on a woman.) Even saw a couple of comments by a certain blueelm. And there was this great one about kittens accidentally giving oral sex.

There are I time really miss the Rookie. His cluelessness could be so adorable.

Love it. Saw the Horrorpops at Warped Tour last summer, and have been in love with the genre since. It's so gloriously bipolar :-p

Oh man, I am SO FREAKING (euphemism week and whatnot) JEALOUS of you right now. My younger, hipper, much more punk-rock little sister introduced me to The Necromantix and The Merrywidows this past Sept-- she pronounced that anyone that likes both punk and rockabilly is hella lame for not knowing about psychobilly.

It hurts to have a 21 year old call you lame.

Jadehawk brought you psychobilly, I bring you cowpunk.

Split Lip Rayfield

Whats that... Why, yes, that standup bass is made from the gastank of a 1978 Mercury Grand Marquis and a piece of hickory and strung with one piece of Weedwhacker line. Why do you ask?

that standup bass is made from the gastank of a 1978 Mercury Grand Marquis and a piece of hickory and strung with one piece of Weedwhacker line

All the good gigs are taken, goddamnit.

Jerry Coyne has been compromised:

Fig. 3. Shoe of the week for my little bagels.

Josh OSG:

Mine's a little more decadent though - I use heavy cream (not a whole cup, to be sure!).

o_O Yuuum.

MrFire - just realized my comment looked like stealing your culinary thunder.

Don't be silly. I am honored to make it into your hollowed finger anals hallowed Pharyngula annals.

Next up: Bagels, then onion-based curry paste.

And then kitten stew.

You guys have truly inspired me. I have some bread dough rising in my kitchen right now that hopefully will turn out. I have been growing a colony of yeast and was making little cake like sweet breads from it but I decided to try my hand at sourdough. We will see how it goes but man did it feel good on my geek wrists to knead the bread.

kitteh update:

the kitteh ate the popcorn and the bean plants my boyfriend was growing on the windowsill, which motivated my boyfriend to quickly locate the cat's owner. Now I'm definitely never gonna be allowed to have a cat, though :-p

Comment 476 bears repeating.

No, the earliest ones are about 20 million years older. They're not as spectactularly preserved, though!

Ohh, do tell its name.

No idea what the names are; they are several species of unspectacular pollen.

Though, for a bit of mystery, check out Sanmiguelia which is a lot older.

ok, so apparently P.R.A.Y.E.R (Pharyngula Randomly Answering Your Endless Requests) works!

Awesome. Monocrystalline awesome.

(Both the miraculous kitteh and your skill with words, that is.)

(Copenhagen Interpretation Fantasy Camp !!)

Awesome. Monocrystalline awesome.

And does the cat have a pulse?

Awesome. Monocrystalline awesome.

(Feeling repetitive today.)

counted nouns have a descriptive suffix (eg ~pon/ ~hon for long thin things (bottles or pencils) or ~mai for flat things (sheets of paper but not books which are ~satsu). Small animals are usually counted ~hikki/ ~pikki except rabbits [...]

Wow. That's imported Chinese grammar: one piece of cake, one sheet (zhāng, like the surname!) of paper, one yuán of money, one ge of people or abstract concepts, one tiǎo of elongate things like streets, fish, trousers...

It's a bit like grammatical gender, only more logical, and there are more of them.

Jadehawk can has kitteh.

Don't give David any ideas.

...

Actually, scratch that. But all means do give him ideas.

You mean I should lick myself clean? I think I wouldn't like the taste (especially given how rarely I shower...), and then there are the anatomical problems mentioned in the first few comments.

but man did it feel good on my geek wrists to knead the bread.

:-)

(Except, with all your pushups, I don't really think you have geek wrists.)

the kitteh ate the popcorn and the bean plants my boyfriend was growing on the windowsill

Wow. The ones you used to explain the difference between "than I" and "than me"?

Two years ago at the dig in Poland, a hungry kitteh wanted to know what I had in my plastic bag. A wheat-based choco cornflakes imitate, as I showed her. She ate some, and then some more... I had no idea cats can go that far into omnivory.

Now I'm definitely never gonna be allowed to have a cat, though :-p

Never say never again.

I'm thinking of where to put plants out of a cat's reach. On a shelf attached to the wall above jumping height...? :-/

kitteh update:

the kitteh ate the popcorn and the bean plants my boyfriend was growing on the windowsill, which motivated my boyfriend to quickly locate the cat's owner. Now I'm definitely never gonna be allowed to have a cat, though :-p

You could just get a cat and a new boyfriend.

But I can't blame him. I was very disappointed the year we came home from (one of our very rare) holidays and the geese had gotten into the veg garden and razed the beans.

Oooh - do keep us updated, Ol'Greg. My sourdough-starter just began fermenting today. I guess I have the place a bit too cold for its taste. (I went with the liquid form: 3 dl water, 2 tbsp ryeflour, 1 tbsb wheat flour and 1 tsp honey (well, roughly, I had a jar with some still stuck to the walls that I washed out with the water.)

I miss Lynna. :(

Another FLDS member guilty of assault.

Found guilty even with this clever defense tactic:

Lead defense attorney Dan Hurley Hurley noted that Merril Leroy Jessop had been called to marry the alleged victim with half an hour of notice.

"Was he intentionally and knowingly violating the law, or was he following the directive of the prophet?" Hurley asked.

Texas juries are brutal. You'd think the FLDS would have taken that into consideration before building a compound there:

Jury sentences FLDS man to 75 years in prison.

I gather the original is about a 1960s generation conflict (you know, the psychological phenomenon that was considered a universal fact in schoolbooks up to at least the late 1990s), which doesn't occur anymore, so Hilary Duff had little chance of getting the point?

I didn't catch the other implication here, but are you saying there is no more generational conflict? that would be a weird claim... charts like this show that it's still there, simmering; and it's going to erupt bigtime once the next generation realizes we ruined the planet for them.

Wow. The ones you used to explain the difference between "than I" and "than me"?

yup, those ones. luckily, we already ate most of the beans, otherwise he might have thrown me out with the cat :-p

I'm thinking of where to put plants out of a cat's reach. On a shelf attached to the wall above jumping height...? :-/

have you seen what American walls are made of? they're not solid enough to have heavy things hanging from them (except in spots specifically designed to have things hanging from them)

Don't give David any ideas.
...
Actually, scratch that. But all means do give him ideas.

You could just get a cat and a new boyfriend.

you're really trying hard, aren't you, sili :-p

they're not solid enough to have heavy things hanging from them (except in spots specifically designed to have things hanging from them)

Easy choice, get rid of the plants! It's worked for me and my three little terrors... er, kittehs so far. (Well, that and the fact that I am a mass murderer of potted plants.)

Hm. Mysterious truncation of blockquote in my #560-

The sentence for Merril Leroy Jessop, 35, is the stiffest yet handed out in the criminal trials of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Under Texas law, Jessop has to serve half of his sentence before he is eligible for parole.

The jury deliberated about four hours, according to the San Angelo Standard-Times , before deciding on Jessop's sentence. Jurors also imposed a $10,000 fine.

no, I'm definitely not getting rid of plants. My contingency plan for the collapse of western civilization is to learn again how to grow my own food, at least partially. I miss the good homegrown food I had as a kid in Evil Socialist Poland. Indoor plants are a practice for this summer, when we'll be growing them on the boyfriend's lot near his parents' place.

you're really trying hard, aren't you, sili :-p

Oh no. This comes natural.

You don't want to see me when I'm trying.

I miss Lynna. :(

Don't we all?

I should add to the What the Hell is Wrong with that Woman pot again.

But I also wanna go see PeeZed in Copenhagen.

I miss Lynna. :(

Where is Lynna ? Did I miss something ?

have you seen what American walls are made of?

Same here, can't put a toiletroll holder in without drilling through the 4mm painted cardboard that poses for a wall quite often over here.

Now I'm definitely never gonna be allowed to have a cat, though :-p

Ponders....Is this some BDSM thing you have going there where you need permission for stuff ? :p

Ponders....Is this some BDSM thing you have going there where you need permission for stuff ? :p

lol, no. just a consequence of living arrangements: to have a pet here, we'd be breaking the terms of lease, so it wouldn't be fair to risk getting evicted for something half of us doesn't even want.

Lynna is on a camping trip. She loves to go to places that have no streets and have no names. She will be back soon.

Ah, thanks, Janine. Amazing how poor my memory is.

Btw does anyone know what's happened to Lynna?

Where is Lynna ?

She got abducted by space aliens or ran away to join the circus, I misremember which.

This might interest some people(via RD):

Evolution of intelligence and consciousness explained

I had no idea cats can go that far into omnivory.

All of our cats have been crazy for ramen (although I suspect that is something to do with the meaty broth), but our current feline friend is crazy about koshi-an (smooth sweet red bean paste).

the kitteh ate the popcorn and the bean plants my boyfriend was growing on the windowsill,

Your boyfriend grows popcorn? I've tried growing jellybeans but it only ever turns into ants.

You mean I should lick myself clean? I think I wouldn't like the taste (especially given how rarely I shower...), and then there are the anatomical problems mentioned in the first few comments.

You should shower more often. It is in the shower where I solve all of life's algebraic problems and balance all of life's chemical reactions.

I miss the good homegrown food I had as a kid in Evil Socialist Poland.

Being Khmer, I know I will always have invasive exotic herbs in the backyard to depend on.

Thanks, Rorschach, for that link @572.

Your boyfriend grows popcorn? I've tried growing jellybeans but it only ever turns into ants.

lol.I don't think jelly beans work that way...
as for the popcorn, it hasn't actually grown to any decent size and doesn't have any cobs; it's just that the boyfriend found a bunch of germinating popcorn seeds somewhere and decided to stick them in the ground to see if they'll grow. he's been sticking everything that germinates into dirt to see if it'll grow. I've had to hide various foodstuffs from him for that reason, or else we'd never actually eat any of the garlic, for example

Please do. It'd be nice with something a bit more reliable than the search function. A wiki perhaps?

actually, I was thinking of using one of my domains in google apps.

still awaiting feedback from Josh.

We got some garlic to grow in the conservatory just now! Last time the clove rotted but this time we're using a lighter, sandier potting soil and it looks promising.

I have a question for a biologist, or any informed layperson on the matter.

I was watching an episode of The Ascent Of Man yesterday, the episode on mathematics and the expression thereof in nature. It got me wondering about the expression of mathematical patterns in nature. Now I know some physicists like to explain such emergent mathematical properties in terms of the laws of physics [Stenger 2007 for example], but I was wondering if there's a more neurological basis for it.

To elaborate a little bit, recently I heard about a recent piece of software that could read the handwriting on checks. It did so by mimicking the way our brain does pattern recognition. So it got me thinking about why it is we like particular patterns and symmetry (particular in tonal music). Is it because our brains on the very basic level have a geometric pattern recognition device? If so, could that explain why some flowers take the form of emergent patterns - because the bees with a similar (but more basic) pattern recognition would select flowers that matched with its pattern recognition "software"?

If nothing else, are there any books I could read on the matter?

You could just get a cat and a new boyfriend.

And a new landlord, which they're already planning to do (specifically, the boyfriend is supposed to be the next landlord).

Getting a new landlord reminds me... I still haven't written any e-mails asking for a postdoc position... I'll have to cram all of them into tomorrow... :-(

I can only hope my procrastination will produce some collateral wisdom. Jack Spratt has finally come out and linked to an article by John Woodmorappe on the Darwinopterus thread; I spent at least an hour refuting it... turns out I wrote 16 1/2 laptop screens (quotes included). <headdesk>

I didn't catch the other implication here, but are you saying there is no more generational conflict? that would be a weird claim...

I didn't mean it that strongly, but it definitely is a lot weaker and a lot less universal than in the 1960s, and I'm not just talking about my own experience (unlike me, most people still want to grow up faster, not more slowly, than they do). When I compare that to my mother, her 5 siblings, and her parents... the younger the aunt or uncle, the less conservative they are :-þ

charts like this show that it's still there, simmering;

Ah. Yes, it's almost certainly stronger in the USA than in western Europe. (About eastern Europe I'm not so sure.)

and it's going to erupt bigtime once the next generation realizes we ruined the planet for them.

Agreed.

you're really trying hard, aren't you, sili :-p

I don't know why he bothers. It's not like anyone would let him watch. X-)

I miss the good homegrown food I had as a kid in Evil Socialist Poland.

My grandparents, both city people, have built up a second home in the countryside of Evil Social Democratic Austria, complete with a vegetable garden and fruit orchard, both very productive. Best potatoes south of Poland, and the only place I know to get parsley roots, to mention just two things.

4mm painted cardboard

<headdesk>

Man. If my siblings and I had grown up in such a house, it wouldn't stand anymore. Just to think of what we did to a chipboard door...

It is in the shower where I solve all of life's algebraic problems and balance all of life's chemical reactions.

For me, a shower doesn't take that long, and it's filled with other activities: washing my hair, regulating the water temperature, wiping the "water" (concentrated lime solution) off the silly curtain... Free association like that happens more while I'm waking up.

On very few occasions I've done simple additions while dreaming.

I've had to hide various foodstuffs from him for that reason, or else we'd never actually eat any of the garlic, for example

LOL!

Is it because our brains on the very basic level have a geometric pattern recognition device? If so, could that explain why some flowers take the form of emergent patterns - because the bees with a similar (but more basic) pattern recognition would select flowers that matched with its pattern recognition "software"?

Interesting idea. I don't know if anything has been published on it.

Evil Social Democratic Austria

For American standards... no, actually, not only. Back then, the Republic owned the iron & steel corporation, and studying at a university was completely free (now there are things like time limits on that).

And the jealousy continues!

I am (slightly) jealous of all of you guys and your yards and gardens and what-have-you. I have a rather nice courtyard, but the ground is bricked over and, as we all know, I'd probably just kill any plant I tried to grow anyway. *sad face!*

Is it because our brains on the very basic level have a geometric pattern recognition device?

in some sense, yes.

innate pattern recognition has been researched for decades, btw, and was one of the first things pioneering ethologists like Tinbergen and Lorenz looked at. Behaviors like imprinting are thought to involve innate pattern recognitions.

for books, being an animal behaviorist, I would recommend Alcock's:

http://www.sinauer.com/detail.php?id=2252

this should be available at any uni library.

as for bees specifically, they have been the subject of numerous studies on pattern recognition, some of the latest work even indicating that they have the ability to differentiate human facial characteristics.

there is a review of all the work done on bees:

http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/behavioralneuroscience/paper/10.338…

though I would recommend reading Alcock first, as you will get a more well-rounded approach to pattern recognition in general.

oh, and there is the classic paper in Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v215/n5107/abs/2151244a0.html

Thanks Ichthyic. Will have to get that book, though I think for a little bit longer I may need to brush up on the basics of evolution. Talking with some Talk.Origins veterans on Friday has shattered my DK on the topic of evolutionary biology.

In an attempt to accommodate the Baltimore Blaspheming Bastards (AKA The Squid Squad) who have been asking for a weekend get-together, I have scheduled our April get-together for Saturday, April 3. Details on the Baltimore Pharyngula Fans group page.

Hope you can make it!

oh, and there is the classic paper in Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v215/n5107/abs/2151244a0.html

Anyone with access? Please email me: kel(underscore)skye(at)yahoo(dot)com

Since ya'll are being so kind and sharing recipes, I guess I can share my favourite bread recipe:

Chocolate Bread

Every year, I get in the mood to bake holiday breads. One year, (((Wife))) did a fruitcake (and I don’t mean me). It filled part of our refrigerator for eight weeks. And bent a shelf. I prefer breads which can be eaten, if not immediately, within a day or two. Such as stollen or chocolate bread.

When I first ran across the recipe in an Italian cookbook, I was a little unsure. Afterall, a chocolate bread would be sickeningly sweet, right? I tried the recipe and discovered (much to my chagrin) I was wrong. So, without further ado, here is a recipe for chocolate bread. It is quick (a single rise bread), easy (as long as you are willing to knead the heck out of it), and delicious. And it is wonderful for gifts (I baked six this afternoon, and have ten more rising right now as I type).

Pane del Cioccolato

4 cups bread flour
4 cups all purpose flour
6 Tbsp butter
2 tsp salt
8 Tbsp unsweetened cocoa powder (I usually use Giardelli, but Hershey’s works well too)
2 Tbsp live dry yeast
10 Tbsp white sugar
3 cups hot (ca 110 degrees F) water (give or take a little (some flour is really dry and you may need more))
2 cups good chocolate chips (milk or semi-sweet (or a mixture of both (and toss in some white chocolate chips for a really neat effect)))

In a large bowl, mix together the flours, salt, cocoa, yeast and sugar. Cube the butter and cut into the flour. Using a wooden spoon, or (my method) a large mixer with a dough hook, mix in the water until the dough begins to cling together. Knead on a lightly floured counter (or with a dough hook) for about 10 to fifteen minutes. Knead the snot out of it (sorry, I have sever allergies (Northeastern PA is the wrong place to be allergic to red maple pollen)). Knead it hard. Punish it. Beat it. Slam it (but do not break your counter (trust me on that one)). When the dough is smooth and silky and feels ‘alive’ in your hands, gently knead in the chocolate chips.

Cut the dough into either five or ten approximately equal sized lumps. Knead each dough ball and shape into a thick, short baton (for ten loaves, they should be about 2″ by 2″ by 5″). Place on two lightly greased (Pam spray works nicely) jelly roll pans. Brush the tops with a light vegetable oil (canola or corn) and cover loosely with wax paper or plastic wrap. Let it rise for two to four hours until doubled in size.

Preheat the oven to 425 degrees F. When the oven is hot, place the bread in the oven (use the middle shelves if you can) for 10 minutes. Reduce heat to 375 and let it bake for another 20 or so minutes.

Pull the bread when they are cooked through (the bottoms will make a hollow sound when rapped with your knuckles (gently!)), brush with melted butter, and let cool on wire racks.

The bread is excellent toasted with butter and cherry preserves. Or, serve at room temperature with cream cheese. It is an excellent desert or breakfast bread.

Enjoy!

I have also used 'orange chocolate' (the balls of chocolate which, when banged against the counter, become wedges of orange flavoured chocolate) in place of plain chocolate and also added lots of almonds and some citron (candied orange peel).

(This is another good bread for a ‘first’ yeast bread try. The amount of sugar means the yeast bounces quickly and the dough comes alive in your hands.)

ah, your interest in this topic let me stumble on a free downloadable version of Horridge's book!

http://epress.anu.edu.au/honeybee/pdf_instructions.html

that should make interesting reading for anyone interested in pattern recognition.

Ichthyic:

actually, I was thinking of using one of my domains in google apps.

still awaiting feedback from Josh.

A website would better for me than print; I keep all my recipes on my laptop, and just take the laptop into the kitchen when I need to follow a recipe.

I may need to brush up on the basics of evolution.

Futuyma's book is still considered the text of choice, AFAIK

http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Biology-Douglas-J-Futuyma/dp/0878931…

again, should be readily available at any library, and since it is a popular text, used copies should be cheap to buy too.

In fact, I realize I still am using the 1st edition, and need to update my copy!

I've had to hide various foodstuffs from him for that reason, or else we'd never actually eat any of the garlic, for example

In my family, we have a problem of storing root crops too long. For this reason, we have plenty of garlic and taro in our backyard.

On very few occasions I've done simple additions while dreaming.

Oh, I usually go over the events of the day while dreaming. If not the shower, I find that thinking in the car is wonderful and distracting. In the car, I can think about the sociological implications about things I do on a regular basis and . . . WHAT THE F*CK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING? YOU CAN'T JUST CUT PEOPLE OFF LIKE THAT WITHOUT SIGNALING. I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE A F*CKING SUV, YOU'RE STILL GOING TO GET MY WRATH.

...however, Alcock's book also covers much of the necessary basics of modern evolutionary biology, since it is so vital to understand just about anything wrt to animal behavior.

You'd probably be fine just getting a copy of Alcock's book, and it's good reading, too.

ah, your interest in this topic

When I was in high school, I got somewhat seriously into music. While I used to be one who liked to put down what music we enjoy to culture, recently I realised there must be something more fundamental as to why certain frequencies when played together sound good while some don't. That there are mathematical relationships in our music doesn't explain why I should find a G chord especially pleasing while playing G and F# together sound off.

The beauty of the mathematical relationships is one thing (and I do enjoy my maths), but how it relates to my experience is another.

that should make interesting reading for anyone interested in pattern recognition.

Excellent, thanks again.

Two other things:

First, I, again, apologize for yesterday. The panic attacks are over and I'm 'off the ledge,' so to speak (er, write. type?)

Second, (((Wife))) and I have four-and-a-half cats. The extra half is a twenty-eight pound rag doll/Maine coon mix (an SPCA cat, but our vet agrees on the probable lineage (and thinks he knows the two cats)) who is aggresively affectionate, drools, and is the most lovable mook ever. The other three include a 17-year-old cat with stress pattern baldness, a little bitty (6 pound) cat who looks like a miniature of the giant, and a black and white who actually acts like a cat.

thinking about deep stuff in the car results in the car driving itself to wherever I had my last McJob, regardless of where I was actually planning on driving.

The same happens for walking.

Locomotion and thinking just aren't an economically advisable combination.

A website would better for me than print; I keep all my recipes on my laptop, and just take the laptop into the kitchen when I need to follow a recipe.

ditto, which is what made me think of it.

I can just make a sub-web of crackergate.com, and make it open post.

basic format looks like this:

http://www.crackergate.com/

can easily be modified to any format.

subweb might look something like this:

http://sites.google.com/a/crackergate.com/webcv/home

so i could set up something like:

"http://sites.google.com/a/crackergate.com/pharyngularecipes/home"

costs nothing, and people can just post their recipes as they see fit, whoever wants can organize it into some categories later.

You'd probably be fine just getting a copy of Alcock's book, and it's good reading, too.

Cool, sounds like just what I need. Just got to figure out whether it's worth the extra $20 to buy a physical copy or to go the route of the eBook.

Currently I'm reading The Selfish Gene, next I think I'll read What Evolution Is by Mayr.

iambilly:

and a black and white who actually acts like a cat.

None of ours act like cats, Elvis in particular. Elvis's nickname is Bad puppy because he not only adores the monster dogs, he likes to go out with them when we take the dogs out walking, he loves being chased by the dogs and chasing them back. He also loves sleeping with the dogs, driving them crazy cleaning them and so forth.

Ireland to hold referendum on Blasphemy Law

Caine:

Oreo (the black and white cat (the (((kid)))s named her) spends a great deal of her life looking down her nose at the other cats.

Dust (the megacat) follows (((Wife))) around like a puppy dog.

Oddly, I can go upstairs to change out of my uniform and all four cats are on the bed. After changing, I walk downstairs and there are the same four cats asleep in the living room. And they never passed me on the stairs. The most logical explanation (other than me being insane) is that cats can teleport.

When we moved back east, my sisters were in a private school in Utah where they adopted a puppy. When they joined us at the end of the semester, the puppy (name Avatar (after one of the wizards in The Wixards)) was introduced to the house. Our old orange and white cat walked up to her (the puppy) and raked her across the nose from above one eye to her nostrils. Avatar carried the scars her whole life and was terrified of all cats.

One year, (((Wife))) did a fruitcake (and I don’t mean me)

:-D :-D :-D

Pane del Cioccolato

Hmmmm. Looks like it's pain au chocolat, only... different. And intriguingly so.

David: Nice to know my double entendres are noticed.

I like the bread. I still have some in the freezer from last December and they defrost well. It isn't nearly as sweet as chocolate bread sounds.

Oddly, I can go upstairs to change out of my uniform and all four cats are on the bed.

At the dig with my hungry cat, I once found both cats curled up on my sleeping bag. It didn't even disturb them that I crept into the sleeping bag... though they were gone when I woke up a few hours later to blow my nose.

They must have liked my smell.

it's worth the extra $20 to buy a physical copy

for me, it would be.

for you? I suppose it depends on what kind of readers you have available to you.

I'm old enough to find I learn from and read hardcopy more quickly, especially for texts.

I will usually go the e-route for articles, simply because I don't have the space to store the thousands of articles I've collected over the years, and they are digestible at a single sitting (usually).

"My" hungry cat? WTF. Procrastinating an entire day till 2:18 is more exhausting than I'd have thought.

Both cats were strays that lived in the fields or something. We occasionally saw them hunt.

Good night at last. Bonne soirée, les AméricainEs.

They must have liked my smell.

I remember coming home (when we lived at Grand Canyon) from hiking trips, coming in the door, taking off our hiking boots, and the cats immediately shoving their heads into the dirty, sweaty boots. When they pulled their heads out, their eyes were crossed, their tongues were sticking out, and they acted confused (well, more confused than normal) for about fifteen minutes. They really liked the smell.

Ichthyic,

so i could set up something like:
"http://sites.google.com/a/crackergate.com/pharyngularecipes/home"
costs nothing, and people can just post their recipes as they see fit, whoever wants can organize it into some categories later.

Just do it, and present us with a fait accompli.

(As for "costs nothing", it costs you time and effort, me it costs nothing! ;) )

Hi Kel!

Glad to hear PZ’s talk up in Canberra was brilliant!

I agree G and F# as a minor second played at the same time can be quite ugly, but the same two notes can be rather more beautiful at the distance of an octave or more (e.g. the major 7th, frequencies in the just ratio 15:8).

On the other hand, a minor second as a properly-prepared and resolved dissonance can be made to sound very expressive – and most people nowadays, if they are exposed to Mozart’s “Dissonant” string quartet, cannot actually pick up the dissonance that gives the sobriquet – which says a lot to the sorts of dissonance that 21st century ears are now accustomed to hearing.

At a party recently frequented by some young musicians (mostly without exposure to a lot of 20th century avant garde stuff) I played some abrasive orchestral music by Stockhausen to “open their ears” a little. One guy thought I was playing “suicide music”!

Yeasty blood?

I don't know where to ask this question, so I thought one of the commenters with medical backgrounds could help me out.

One of my more gullible friends has been having problems with fatigue for a long while, and her MD has been unable to find the source of the problem or to help her. So she's now turned to a homeopath (!) who told her her problem was "yeasty blood", gave her some kind of substance to take (don't know if it's traditional homeopathic water or something else), and told her to avoid eating anything with yeast in it.

My skeptic alarms starting beeping immediately, so I googled "yeast AND blood" and all I seem to pull up are woo sites. Also went to google scholar and pubmed but can't find anything.

Am I just not searching under the right medical terms, or is this just more quackery? Is there better place I can look for info or ask my question?

Yeasty blood?

red beer?

sorry, got nothing more substantive to contribute, since IANAMD/IANAB :-p

This is a totally laymans response (historian, at that), but if your friend has a fungal infection in her bloodstream, fatigue would be the least of her problems. I would take 'quackery' for $1000 on that one.

iambilly:

Our old orange and white cat walked up to her (the puppy) and raked her across the nose from above one eye to her nostrils. Avatar carried the scars her whole life and was terrified of all cats.

Never had the slightest problem with cats and the monster dogs. The rats, however, rule. The current rat, Bruce, scares the hell out of the dogs, it's funny to see three dogs, from 85 to 120 lbs jump to get out of his way. Bruce has never actually damaged any of them, he just makes them nervous. He did chomp on Matoska's nose (he's the 120 lb monster), but not hard enough to break the skin.

Our first rat (a rescue) trained all the cats to leave rats the hell alone. He bit every single one of them. They've learned to respect the rat, at least the one[s] who live in my studio. :D

Bastion of Sass, a common "diagnosis" of the woo quacks is candidiasis. While that can be a real problem, it's easy to test for it, and I'm sure her medical doctor did so. The woosters will claim candidiasis in the gut as causing all kinds of problems; I wouldn't be surprised if "yeasty blood" is the same "diagnosis."

Caine: (((Girl))) has two rats (named Rizzo and Splinter) and I am amazed at how intelligent, creative, and personable they are. Dust (the megacat) is the only one who shows interest and he's more interested in 'play?' 'play?' The rats take it in stride. We did once find him cleaning one of the rats through the bars on the cage. Or maybe he was marinating.

One of my more gullible friends has been having problems with fatigue for a long while, and her MD has been unable to find the source of the problem or to help her.

repeated thyroid tests (weekly for a month or two)

repeated blood sugar tests (again, weekly or even more often, for a month or two)

often, small changes in thyroid function can be missed, and I have seen a lot of fatigue issues related to that.

still, you should post this over on Orac's site.

iambilly, hahahaha. Our rat rescues have the deluxe treatment and they don't get locked in. This is the rat setup: http://moblog.net/view/202021/for-sprocket (It's easier to link photos of it than explain it). It's been added to a bit over the years. The current boy, Bruce, loves to climb high, so I put up several climbable shelves for him.

The rat in the shots was our first, Ash, who was a superstar. He went every where with me, even outside, nestled safely on my shoulder under my sweatshirt hood. He had been badly abused, and I was really happy to make his last years happy ones.

Then we had Arlo & Nash, now we have Bruce, who is extremely lucky he got rescued by us, as all his siblings ended up tossed to snakes in anger, for extreme aggression.

Hm, maybe some Mad Scientist™ will bioengineer a benign, commensal strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae that thrives in the human bloodstream.

What a way to lose weight and stay permanently pissed!

Thanks for the input on my friend's "yeasty blood" diagnosis. I don't think she'd be receptive to my telling her that her homeopath is a quackawoo. I just wanted to make sure my skeptic alarm was correctly calibrated.

My friend's always sending me woo advice on the causes and treatment of my breast cancer and other medical issues. That's apparently OK since I'm so ignorant. *sigh* Yet she gets put out when I send her authoritative information that counters what she's sent.

But she's a really sweet, kind and generous person, and I like her, but her gullibility WRT medical issues often exasperates me.

On local news: prognosis re demographics:
Alpha Generation to be the biggest yet.

(The strine is noticeable, if familiar, even to me)

Bastion of Sass, your patience is commendable, to say the least. I doubt if she's taking anything which is actually harmful, but you might want to try and find out exactly what she is taking and researching the "remedy".

On local news: prognosis re demographics:
Alpha Generation to be the biggest yet.

eh? that doesn't make sense to me... who's gonna start breeding during a global recession? aren't depressions and recessions usually correlated with drops in birthrates?

Jadehawk, that's why I find it of interest — it appears counter-intuitive¹.

--

¹ Of course, the population base right now is larger than it's ever been before, so even with a lesser fertility rate it could still generate larger numbers of offspring than any previous ones).

Jadehawk:

eh? that doesn't make sense to me... who's gonna start breeding during a global recession?

Most people give more thought to buying a car than breeding. Plenty of it will go on, no matter the external situation.

for me, it would be.

for you? I suppose it depends on what kind of readers you have available to you.

Currently the only reader I have is my computer, so it's a bit restrictive in that sense. But really I'd have to sit down and read it anyway (can't really take stuff like that on the bus) so it's not a huge deal. Would need to save my pennies for it anyway, so I don't need to make a decision today.

Alright, well this afternoon, my said, "Tell me you're reading Dawkins because you want to research the enemy. That man is a fool, the Bible says anyone who says there is no god is a fool."

I didn't even want to answer him, but I forced out a "Yes, I know."

So apparently to my father, atheists are 'the enemy.' I can't even fathom that idea, even as a Christian, I never thought atheists were 'the enemy.'

Hi Kel!

Glad to hear PZ’s talk up in Canberra was brilliant!

Yeah, it was good. The only unfortunate thing is that it officially marked the end of activities for me, so now I have to wait until TAM or even National Science Week for there to be lots of stuff to do again.

One guy thought I was playing “suicide music”!

lol, that's brilliant.

Just checked a bit of his stuff out on Youtube, it's pretty trippy stuff.

The Redhead had me work on some old recipes of a group Chinese meal we had in Dah UP Many moons ago. I'll toss one out.

Sweet and Sour Spareribs

5 T. Soy sauce
2 T. sherry
2 cloves garlic minced
1 t. sugar
1½ lbs. spareribs(I used boned beef ribs)
1 T. cornstarch
1 T. vinegar
1 t. cornstarch
oil for cooking

Combine 3 T. soy sauce, 1 T. sherry, garlic, and 1 t. sugar, blend.well. Have butcher cut crosswise through spareribs at about 1 to 1½ inch intervals. Cut the bones apart. Pour soy sauce mixture over the sparerib. Let stand at room temperature 1 hour, stir occasionally. Blend in 1 T. cornstarch.
Blend together 2 t. sugar, 2 T. soy sauce, 1 T. sherry, vinegar, 1 t. cornstarch together in saucepan. Cook over medium heat, stirring constantly, until thickened. Set aside.
Heat approximately 3" oil in wok.
Drain marinade from spareribs. . Add portion of meat at a time to hot oil; cook until well browned. Drain on paper toweling. Place cooked spareribs into cooked sauce; coat well. Cover; chill. Serve spareribs at room temperature. Makes about 24‑28 pieces.‑Keep in mind the fact that I made double this amount when trying to envision the amount you wish to prepare.

Additional items for Garnishing
tomatoes, cut in rosette ribbons
scallions, minced, fanned, and whole
cucumbers, cut in fans
oranges cut in half with wedge knife
lemons, eighths
parsley, sprigs
carrots, cut as goldfish
combination‑of above formed into duck features
maraschino cherries with stems
green grapes
red grapes

Most people give more thought to buying a car than breeding. Plenty of it will go on, no matter the external situation.

oh, I'm sure there will be plenty. but it's not true that people don't think about it. I find that especially women DO think about it a lot; for example, there's a "lost generation" of sorts caused by women now in their 40's having had remained childless to a very large degree because they were forced to chose between career and family. Plus, fertility rates really do correlate with recessions. so the only explanation I see is another echo, like my own generation was.

@626:

First sentence is missing a subject - that subject would be 'father.'

And in the spirit of trippy electronica: Tangerine Dream

Is Mooneysnuggums rubbing off on the other principals over at CFI? This article is from the executive director of the NYC branch of CFI. An individual who has a degree in rhetoric and communication, no less:

The Problems With the Atheistic Approach to the World.

The comments pretty much dismantle his *argument*, not that anyone here would need any of the fail pointed out to them.

Hell, I didn't, and I'm fairly new at this game.

Jadehawk:

but it's not true that people don't think about it.

There certainly are people who think about it. For everyone one person who does think, more don't. It's Happiness!/Happy accident!/Oh no, but I won't abort/Natural/Life affirming, etc.

It's ancecdotal, but I know more people who fit into one of the above than I do people who gave it serious thought. For a majority of people, it's just one of those things, part of life. And these are the people who have options, such as birth control and legal abortion. If the majority of people did actually think about breeding, we wouldn't have the amount of people we do on the planet.

Kevin @626

Yikes, sounds like a tense moment. Fwiw, it sounds like you are playing it exactly right--giving him minimal responses as he asks questions. The best outcome would be that if he realizes someone he loves (and who loves him) is an atheist, it may change his view on atheists as 'the enemy'. Not sure how likely that is, but it's worth hoping. In the midst of the discovery process, though, I'm sure it's uncomfortable, and I wish there were an easy way through for you. Hang in there!

Ah, my little Pharygulites - thanks for the recipes; I've save them all.

Caine - I haven't read the thread carefully, but do I gather that you keep rats as pets? I've never known quite what to think about them. One minute they seem cute and I want to cuddle them, the next minute I get a shiver because they seem like. . . ."vermin." Especially those segmented tails.

Boygenius - Ophelia Benson has a great takedown of that CFI contributor's poorly written article:

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/notes.php

Scroll to the second article, "Oh noes, it's the new atheists."

Ooooh, I have such a platonic crush on Ophelia Benson.

In other news: KANSAS!!!!!!! WTF??????????

"Tell me you're reading Dawkins because you want to research the enemy. That man is a fool, the Bible says anyone who says there is no god is a fool."

Sounds like the perfect time to reply back "it's quite fascinating what they believe, you should have a read of it".

My personal favourite response to such accusations is "the fool may say 'there is no God' in his heart, the wise man says it in his brain." The heart is not for thinking, matters of the heart are not matters of the mind. Love may be a matter of the heart, but reason is a purely intellectual enterprise.

Though on a personal note, I've never really known what it's like to be so emotionally attached to a particular idea such a God. So I can't really empathise with those who have that emotional coupling to the idea.

Josh, yes, I have rats. Well, one at the moment. See #617 for some photos of them and their set up in my studio. A lot of people freak about the tails, I'm not sure why. Usually what I hear is "but the tails are naked!" The tails are dry and smooth; that's how rats regulate temperature, through their tails.

They are amazingly intelligent, some of them can get quite possessive with their person, they are highly individual, one rat is never like the next.

@Kevin, #626

I didn't even want to answer him, but I forced out a "Yes, I know."

I know nothing of your relationship with your parents, and I know nothing of your life. Trying to tell you the "best" way to deal with their finding out about your atheism would be presumptuous and stupid.

But, just as an observation - you're a grown man now. You live on your own, you pay your own bills. I hope you can get to the point where you're not terrified of what your parents say when they see the selection of books on your walls.

No, I don't think I know better than you how to conduct your family relations, and I totally recognize how hard this can be. I do want to encourage you to be confident in your own decisions. When I read your posts and see the fear you have about answering your parents' questions, I get a little angry on your behalf. You are an adult; you have a right to live as an adult man. Your parents don't own you. To the extent that they raised you and sent you out into the world, good on them. But that doesn't give them the right to keep an emotional or intellectual hold on you, or your views about religion or politics.

Please don't tremble before their judgment in your own home. You deserve better than that, and you've earned it.

Please know I'm not criticizing how you feel, or dismissing your emotional reaction. Rather, I'm plugging for you to feel more confident.

@jenbphillips:

Ooooh, I have such a platonic crush on Ophelia Benson.

Any sensible person would! Ophelia rocks my world. She's not only incredibly insightful and sharp, she's a damned good (uncommonly good) writer.

One of the Redhead's roommates in college had a rat rescued from the psych labs. The rat loved pizza and beer.

@Caine:

A lot of people freak about the tails, I'm not sure why. Usually what I hear is "but the tails are naked!" The tails are dry and smooth; that's how rats regulate temperature, through their tails.

I'm not sure why either, but it seems to be a common reaction (I have it too, as I said). Nevertheless, I do kinda like them. . . I've held and played with rats before. . .they're pretty cool, and I could see how they'd be good pets. Are they snuggly? Can they learn to get along with kittehs, or will kittehs try to eat them?

That's one swanky set-up you've got for them - hope they appreciate it!

Jen - funny, I heard that same scream coming from the other room of my house earlier. :)
(The one about KU, not Ophelia. Although that one would have been ok too.)

Kevin - if it helps any, I doubt your dad thinks of all atheists as the enemy, just the really popular proselytizers of atheism. You he'd think of as just misled. :( If you haven't done it yet, go check out friendlyatheist.com - Richard Wade has started a series called "Ask Richard", and it's fantastic. Several of the questions have been about coping with religious family members, and he's given incredibly good advice (as have many of the other commenters). Might help to go read it for commiseration and ideas.

@Kevin, #626

awkward and unpleasant :-/

That man is a fool, the Bible says anyone who says there is no god is a fool."

That Biblical passage has always struck me as one of the most condescending, arrogant, smug things ever written. A book pushing a particular belief has a bit that says those who don't believe are fools. I realize it's preaching to the choir and if the goddists kept it for home consumption I wouldn't complain about it. However, more than half the time I'm discussing belief with a goddist they trot out this quote. First of all, the goddists are ignoring "...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22 KJV) Another point is that I'm not going to accept a piece of self-serving propaganda. Finally, it's all I can do from saying "and a hardy fornicate you" whenever someone quotes this verse at me.

Nerd, my first rat, Ash, had a fondness for homebrewed Oatmeal Stout. Arlo & Nash didn't care for beer, but would try to get into my glass whenever I had a nice Merlot. Bruce, I don't know. I don't let that boy even sniff alcohol, he's mean enough sober. ;) Now pizza, never had a rat turn down pizza.

@Caine - I do recall some of the New York City rats I had to deal with in college. Those fuckers got to cat proportions, and they scared the hell out of me when they occasionally got into the house. Those beasts were definitely not domesticated, and they were agressive.

Josh, better yet, subscribe to the B&W RSS feed:
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/nandq.xml

The weirdest thing just happened :

I'm unpacking at the new place, there was my old copy of TGD, so I sat down and re-read the first 120 pages.
And while I read, I hear the words spoken in RD's voice in my mind !

Can't turn it off even concentrating on it.

(never listened to the audiobook of it or the like)

The other thing I didn't remember from TGD was the discussion of Pascal's wager, and how RD argues that it could always only be a wager for feigning to believe, since you can't just "decide" to believe.
I didn't remember that, good point.

@John Morales:

Josh, better yet, subscribe to the B&W RSS feed

Everyone should! B&W has been on my daily reading list for almost five years, so I'd never miss anything O. writes.

I actually picked Kansas to be upset, but by UNLV rather than N. Iowa. In the Pharyngula Bracket Challenge, both Rev BDC and the guy who I think is Celtic Evolution had Kansas winning the whole shebang, so thay are doubtless bummed. Georgetown's early loss also fucked up a lot of people, again including BDC, and also Billy the Atheist who had Georgetown winning it all.

I could end up pulling this thing out.

Josh, OSG:

Are they snuggly? Can they learn to get along with kittehs, or will kittehs try to eat them?

Snuggly? Depends on the rat. Ash was a snuggle bug supreme. Arlo, mid-level snuggler. Nash, extreme shy boy. Bruce, I can rarely get away with petting him. Most rats though, are happy to snuggle and shoulder travel/sit.

Ash, the first rat, trained all the cats. Bit every single one, hard. Even my most beloved Sullivan, my Siamese. Sullivan never evinced any interest in Ash; even so, one evening Sullivan was sleeping in my spare desk chair and Ash came out, and bit his ear clean through. The cats learned to respect the rat, full stop. :) After the cats were suitably trained, they got along fine. All the rats have liked the dogs, the rats seem to think the dogs are all nice, warm, hairy pillows.

Josh:

@Caine - I do recall some of the New York City rats I had to deal with in college. Those fuckers got to cat proportions, and they scared the hell out of me when they occasionally got into the house. Those beasts were definitely not domesticated, and they were agressive.

Same deal with farm rats, those grow to a huge size! Definitely not pet status.

Rev BDC and the guy who I think is Celtic Evolution had Kansas winning the whole shebang, so thay are doubtless bummed. Georgetown's early loss also fucked up a lot of people, again including BDC, and also Billy the Atheist who had Georgetown winning it all.

Connecticut's going to take it.

Haha, nice, Caine! Another animal to consider adding to my menagerie. Only if they can be fairly self-sufficient, though. That's what I like about cats - give them food, water, and clean out their poop box, and they're good to go.

Rorschach,

And while I read, I hear the words spoken in RD's voice in my mind !

Wow! I'd love to experience that particular synesthesia!

(Psst, you've not been dipping into the pychotropic stash, have ya? ;) )

Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist.

(Psst, you've not been dipping into the pychotropic stash, have ya? ;) )

Not since I was 16...
It's the weirdest thing !

jenbphillips,

Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist.

Au contraire (if I may crossblogulate to Retrospectacle¹).

--

¹ Now of two minds.

Josh, don't know if you noticed in the photo series about the rat set up, but Ash can be seen using his ratbox. Rats are self-sufficient, they clean themselves much like a cat; they will use a litterbox, they answer to their names, etc.

On the water front, a lot of people use drip water bottles, my rats have all hated them and refused to use them. They have a water dish along with their food dish. All my boys have adored tea, so they have a special tea dish. They appreciate things to chew on (naturally, there are a ton of specialty rat chews) and some like toys. Bruce likes to maul and mutilate tennis balls, makes my little monster happy.

They are social animals, so if you only keep one, as I'm doing, they do need time and interaction with you, but not to an excessive degree. Males are mostly interested in food, a bit of attention and sleeping. They will explore if you let them. Females are much higher maintenance - they like to play, have more energy and want much more attention than males. :D

Rorschach, I hope you enjoyed it (are enjoying it?) as much as I would, were I lucky enough.

Jen:

Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist.

They do, in comparison with pet rats. Pet rats are specifically bred and keep to size for the most part. Wild rats are generally larger than pet rats, some of them a whole lot larger.

@Caine:

Females are much higher maintenance - they like to play, have more energy and want much more attention than males. :D

Quel surprise.

Don't know if I'm up for all that. See, when I wake up in the afternoon (which it pleases me to do). . don't nobody bring me no bad news. . .

Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes

Oy, spent a good hour with my sister who's been crying over knowing about my atheism. She's about the last person I wanted to upset (I feel closer to her than anyone else in my family.)

I told her honestly, I don't have faith, I'm not strong, I believe in science and have an analytical curious mind. I don't believe a kind and just god would punish me if he made me curious.

I think we worked it out, though. She's still upset, and worried, and it hurts to know that, but I can't lie to my family.

Would need to save my pennies for it anyway, so I don't need to make a decision today.

frankly, I would recommend it OVER any of the standard readers like Dawkins'.

reason?

more detail, and broader coverage.

you'll like it!

Josh OSG, thanks for the OB link. I don't read her posts often enough. I do have her bookmarked, but my bookmarks are a mess. Maybe it's time for me to break down and figure out how to do RSS feeds (as John Morales suggested) so I don't miss so much of the good stuff.

You know people, as much as I loved it that PZ was here, and spent time with me/us over 4 days, I can't wait for him to get back home and give us some threads to discuss stuff on, read and learn s*h*i*t, and feed my SIWOTI syndrome...:-)

@Kevin:

Oy, spent a good hour with my sister who's been crying over knowing about my atheism. She's about the last person I wanted to upset (I feel closer to her than anyone else in my family.)

I told her honestly, I don't have faith, I'm not strong, I believe in science and have an analytical curious mind. I don't believe a kind and just god would punish me if he made me curious.

But, you are strong. It takes strength to be intellectually honest, especially in the face of all that maudlin emotional pressure.

Let her cry it out, get it out of her system. Don't get sucked into the idea that "I hurt her and should feel bad." She'll get over it. You have to be who you are.

@Josh OSG:

Strong in belief, I meant. Forgetting words.

Would need to save my pennies for it anyway, so I don't need to make a decision today.

I just ordered my next lot of Amazon books, had a look at the Futuyma 2nd ed, it's 78.- AUD hardcover, didn't buy it this time, maybe next.The Alcock is cheaper....

@Kevin:

Strong in belief, I meant. Forgetting words.

Not trying to quibble over word meanings with you Kevin, that's not the point. You don't have to justify to me what you meant to say:)

But you also don't have to justify your lack of belief I (or anything else) to your family. Yes, I know you have emotional and familial commitments - we all do. I'm not suggesting that you be callous, I just mean to encourage you to have confidence in your own point of view. Many of us have come out to family and friends as atheists, agnostics, gay people, you name it. If your sister cries about it, let her cry it out. Just because she has an emotionally negative reaction to it is not a reason to second-guess yourself.

It's common to have to let our emotionally-obsessed family members thrash it out. Let them blow off steam, have a tantrum, and get exhausted. Then go back and talk to them when they're rational people again, capable of understanding that you still love them. But honestly, don't tie yourself up in knots when they have a predictable emotional tantrum.

Kevin, good on you.

I think we worked it out, though. She's still upset, and worried, and it hurts to know that, but I can't lie to my family.

That you think honesty is the best policy cannot but be in your favour, morally speaking.

Again, kudos!

@Josh, OSG:

She's pretty emotional. I've, like I said, always been really close to my sister, and I hate seeing her cry. I told myself, 'no one makes my sister cry' so it kinda hurts a bit knowing that I'm the one who did it to her.

I let her pray for me, and told her she could keep praying for me, so I think she'll be alright.

@John Morales:

I love my family, and I can't lie to them. If I learned anything about my past Christianity, it's that I'm supposed to treat people right.

Rorschach, head over to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/even_the_nice_theologians_an… if you feel like a chew toy.

Josh, all my rats have tailored their sleep/wake time to me. :)

Hokay, now I sleep - tis almost 1 AM.

Hi Kevin,

Sounds like you're having a tough weekend.

Have you explained or thought about explaining to your family that belief in God is not a matter of choice?

People either believe or they don't. You haven't chosen to wish God away; you just don't see any evidence for his existence. That's not your fault. And there's nothing wrong with that anyway.

Hang in there. It might take time for your family to get over the initial shock, but blood is thicker than toothpaste.

Kevin, you've done well. We are all here if you need support.

@Caine:

Josh, all my rats have tailored their sleep/wake time to me. :)

Good. Then they are prepared for assimilation. Life as you and your rats know it has come to an end. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

Comply.

/Locutus of Gay

Kevin,

I told myself, 'no one makes my sister cry' so it kinda hurts a bit knowing that I'm the one who did it to her.

No, you did not.

Her inculcation and upbringing did it to her, all you did is cause cognitive dissonance¹ by revealing the truth. It can be traumatic to confront such.

My (unsolicited, but well-meant advice) is don't push things. Let them come to terms with the revelation and approach you, rather than you approach them.

--

¹ How can you apparently be the same (hopefully, nice) guy as before, when you've lost your faith? How can you still know right from wrong, how can you (as I'm sure she's aware of) still care so much about her and your family without God?

Locutus of Gay, I'm fine with that, but the rats...they have issues. Buggers insist on maintaining individuality. So, I'll have to stay with them, after all, someone has to do it!

Speaking of over-sized, yet tasty rats, in the Gulf Coast region of the US we have nutrias

http://www.bali.co.kr/zoo/image1/%C1%E304Nutria.jpg
which are really huge rats, that some people do not believe in. They outweigh cats, and and are beaver-like critters with bald tails

When I was in my twenties I worked the Louisiana bayous on small tugs and barges, and we would see people out nights hunting nutrias in rowboats

I learned the nearby Hormel plant paid 20 cents a pound for them, so happy Vienna sausage and potted meat, America.

Pygmy Loris, waaaay back at #339

Looks as though my reply never did make it through. Oh well.

I agree that it would be nice to have more politicians who are prepared to stick to their principles and make unpopular decisions, but I'm not optimistic about that.

I suspect that by the time most well-intentioned politicians have battled their way up through local and state politics and their own internal party machines they have had to make so many compromises and are indebted to so many people that they no longer even resemble the idealists they once were. Those few who do make it through seem to sh*t themselves at the first bad opinion poll.

What amazes me the most is how working/middle-class people are so eager to vote against their own interests, whether it's out of fear (terrorists) mean-spiritedness (immigrants/refugees) or greed (tax cuts for the rich).

I remember reading something about it having to do with people overestimating their own prospects: I'll be rich one day, so if we get those top-end tax cuts now I can enjoy them later on.

People can also mistakenly think they're on top of the heap already. I read somewhere that something like 90 per cent of Americans think they're in the top 10 per cent of wage/salary earners. (That doesn't sound right, I know, but I think it was something like that).

Sitting here in Australia (where, unfortunately, we do get Fox News and The 700 Club on cable) I'm staggered by how so many Americans can be so disconnected from reality.

The conspiracy thinking (FEMA concentration camps, death panels) and the confused and unfocused rage of the Teabaggers is frightening, even from here. They seem to live in Opposite World, where they're angry at all the wrong people for all the wrong things. I'm so sorry we sent you Rupert Murdoch. :(

In the couple of decades that I've been taking a passing interest in politics in Australia, the US and Britain, it seems as though the formerly centre-left parties have stolen the centre ground (or even the centre-right ground), forcing the centre-right parties further and further out. What do you think? I'm probably oversimplifying again.

frankly, I would recommend it OVER any of the standard readers like Dawkins'.

I think eventually I'm going to have to get proper textbooks instead of buying popular accounts, the difference in price and readability are factors though. Still, I want to know more about the topic.

And I have this book that Massimo Pigliucci recommended me on Evolvability which is on my "to read" list as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Robustness-Evolvability-Living-Systems-Complexity…

Alright, well this afternoon, my [father] said, "Tell me you're reading Dawkins because you want to research the enemy. That man is a fool, the Bible says anyone who says there is no god is a fool."

For whatever it's worth, Psalm 53 goes on to condemn every single human being there is:

  http://asvbible.com/psalms/53.htm

So apparently to my father, atheists are 'the enemy.' I can't even fathom that idea, even as a Christian, I never thought atheists were 'the enemy.'

To be charitable, he might just mean "enemy" in a rhetorical sense. It isn't that much of an improvement, I suppose, but it is a slight improvement.

=======

Oy, spent a good hour with my sister who's been crying over knowing about my atheism.

How did it come out? Did she actually bluntly ask?

She's about the last person I wanted to upset (I feel closer to her than anyone else in my family.)

Can you get her to explain why she's upset?

If she's genuinely concerned that you'll be damned to hell, you can try introducing her to the concept of universal reconciliation.

(The point being not that you believe it, but to offer her something to hope for.)

If that isn't why she's upset, well, I don't know what else to suggest.

She's still upset, and worried, and it hurts to know that, but I can't lie to my family.

There are ways of not exposing the full truth that don't involve actually lying.

This is a test:

Spiritual things

Wow. I just logged on. We're here drinking some wine and looking up old music. Hey Kevin, I just wanted to tell you I'm sorry about your sister and parents. That has to be rough. Hopefully they'll be able to see that you're still the person they always loved.

Man that sounded really sappy. I've had like half a bottle of merlot so I'm sorry if that's sappy. The sentiment is sincere.

And then I saw... yeasty blood and yeasty bowels? No medical background here and I see it's been dealt with anyway. My cousin got an internal fungal infection once. They are very rare outside of people with AIDS I think. She was in the hospital for a week and became so ill her hair fell out. If your friend really had anything like that she'd probably have gone to an ER by now.

As far as yeasty bowels... while I was growing my yeast friends in the kitchen I became so enticed by the smell that I ate a tablespoon or so impulsively before I came to my senses. Mmmmm...

It gave me a little gas. So does milk though, frankly.

I'm in Australia, or somewhere over the Pacific, or something...but I've got a moment to SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN! Move on.