Poor Paddy K. He wants to formally leave the Catholic church, so he followed the official procedures…and what does he get? A long letter from a priest telling him how wonderful the church is.
Maybe he needs to send the priest this video of Bill Donohue reiterating his claim that the problem is the infiltration of the church by the homosexual agenda. The low point for me was when the really terrible interviewer, Rick Sanchez, asks whether the problem with the church isn't priestly celibacy, and Donohue smugly takes this as a vindication of his point, somehow. I don't get it. He sure seems positive that he's got a logical point connecting celibacy with gayness, though.
Anyway, it's hard to question one's desire to leave the church when one sees the kind of vermin defending it.
By the way, a while back I tried to follow the official Lutheran church's procedure for being formally stricken from the rolls, and wrote to the only church I was ever a member of, way back in my childhood. They have no record of me, not even a baptismal record. I felt a little miffed that I was forgotten, but I got over it — I guess this just means I was never really a Christian, which is fine with me. I can set that brief youthful embarrassment aside and pretend it never happened.
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Maybe we should send the priest a link to this BBC article:
Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism
Every time you think they can't go any lower, they prove you wrong.
It's just too damned easy to pick on the Catholic Church these days.
Here's the latest Catholic apologist.
I don't understand why it's important to officially leave a church-- isn't it enough to not show up and denounce god?
Then again, I wasn't raised in a faith and my family never belonged to a church, so maybe I'm missing the symbolism.
OurDeadSelves, in some countries it's important since you pay church taxes if you're a member of a church.
It seems the Archbishop of Canterbury's comments about the Catholic Church in Ireland lacking in credibilty has upset a Catholic Bishop.
That, I think they say, is a result.
Like a tithe or are we talking actual gov't taxes?
The government collects as part of your normal tax and hands it on to the church.
Obviously, you were just a Christianist.
That totally sucks. I'd officially leave a church over that nonsense.
"I don't understand why it's important to officially leave a church-- isn't it enough to not show up and denounce god?"
Generally it would be, but the RCs use numbers of membership as justification for having a voice in the community. They claim to represent a large body of people and hence this entitles them to a voice. It may also be used to seek government funding in relation to community matters / development under RC auspices; not entirely sure about that though it does sound reasonable. They also use it to demonstrate their overall size in global terms, and hence their significance to the world.
By completing the defection process you may no longer be counted as part of their overall numbers, thereby lessening their claim of representation and making the church smaller. If it were not for that I would never have bothered to go through the short procedure, but damn it to hades if I am going to be used even numerically for their own ends.
My own experience saw a short letter from the local bishopric acknowledging the application and asking if I wished to discuss it. I indicated I did not and I received my official defection doc a few weeks later. I suppose in small rural towns it might be a bit different, all depends on the personality but they cannot interfere with it.
Btw you are still a Catholic as far as they think their sky daddy is concerned; only excommunication can completely remove you from the church.
Zeno knows this better than I, but I don't believe excom actually removes you from the Church, just from salvation. You're still a Catholic after excom, just a very very bad one who's going to Hell.
When my parents married, my father was still officially Catholic; in order to be married in his family's church, they had to agree to raise all subsequent children Catholic. Therefore, as the oldest, I was christened when only a few months old -- because of this promise. My parents, who didn't believe the Catholic doctrine and never once went to Catholic services, soon decided/realized that this was a promise made under duress, and it was foolish to consider themselves honor-bound by it. My brothers weren't christened, and none of us was raised Catholic, or even Christian. We were "freethinkers."
And yet, I have been told by Catholics that I am a Catholic. Not simply as a matter of record, due to my christening. No, I am Catholic in essence -- and always will be. When the priest sprinkled the holy water on my forehead, the Holy Ghost entered into my soul. Despite the fact that my only exposure to Catholicism was what I got from visiting cousins, I am a Catholic in the eyes of the Church for all eternity.
Right. Just like transubstantiation. The cracker is really, truly, Jesus.
When I was told this by some Catholics in a debate chatroom, I asked them if they really, truly wanted me telling the Protestants I was Catholic, before I proceeded to debate against the existence of God. Wouldn't it seem a tad inconsistent -- not to say damaging? They thought it a good point, and agreed that it was probably better for me not to self-identify as a real, true Catholic. Maybe it was a gray area.
OurDeadSelves - If you are on their roll, while you may have rejected their god and everything that goes with him, they still claim to speak for you.
"there are X million Catholics in this country" means "the number of baptisms - the number of funerals = X Million".
You may notice that the church never campaigns on the "Y Million Catholics who attend weekly mass in this country" because Y is substantially smaller than X.
Hence the reason why defecting is a good idea.
Lucky bastard. My hometown was and still is overwhelmingly Catholic, so I've got to deal with it every time I see anyone from 1) my large Catholic family, 2) my childhood in general, or 3) nearly everyone from Catholic elementary and high school. This is surprisingly often. Fortunately, avoiding old friends/enemies (or openly mocking their absurd ideas) is something I do fairly well.
Anyway, the important lesson here is that Bill Donohue really takes the taco. What a truly great spokesman for the Catholic Church, or Catholic Bowling League, or the Catholic Non-pedophilic Child Abuser's Coalition, or whatever-the-fuck he's representing. I don't think they could've found anyone else (other than Pope Palpatine) who so excels at being the stupidest, most deluded, vilest scumbag in the room at any given time or place. It's really quite impressive.
#10, #11: Actually, excommunication neither removes you from the Church nor (in the eyes of the Church) consigns you to hell. (That's up to God; the last Pope was open to the possibility that hell is completely empty.) It simply means you can't receive the sacraments.
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/edpeters_excommun_nov06.asp
The "official defection process" is the one to follow if you want to leave the Church.
Thanks for the input, guys. Sometimes I am embarrassingly ignorant about stuff like this.
Myself, at #14:
Like this weekend, to visit my family for Easter. I really fucking hate Easter, but along with Thanksgiving and Christmas it is one of the few times every year I can visit my family. It would be nice if I could just see them and eat a bunch of food to celebrate the arrival of spring; but no, they have to celebrate National Zombie Scapegoat Awareness Day or some shit.
Why would anybody bother making requests to leave a church? It's like asking to be removed from the roles of the chess club you were in while in high school 40 years ago.
You stop going and you stop giving them any money. Why do you need a piece of paper?
I once tried to be declared apostate - as opposed to simple excommunication - by the HRCC and all I got was a run around. I don't think they take such requests seriously.
Of course they have many lessons to learn from the Latter Day Saints who induct their family members from many generations past - dead folks who have no voice in the matter - into the church. Imagine inducting my great-great-great grandfather and all of his descendants into the Mormon church?
Now that's just amazingly arrogant.
Lutheran relations of mine recieved letters of excommunication simply for ignoring the church (for a couple of decades).
The Pope as the successor to Peter has the metaphysical keys to the gates. Its through him that salvation is allowed. He can through communication close the gates to you and cut you off from God, thus making it impossible for you to be forgiven for sins and thus indirectly go to hell.
But Kristjan Wager @#4, in those countries, is it the church that decides who is a member, or do the members opt in or out? Does a church's claim that someone is a member obligate that person to pay church taxes?
Since god does not exist, and nor does hell I fail to see the problem.
PZ:
It may seem innocuous, PZ, but it means you have memories which are false, PZ. Memories which must have been implanted. Who implanted these false memories? And why? And how? Most importantly, what foul truths of your childhood are being covered up by these false memories? What double life do you live that is so secret it must be hidden even from your own self?
Different than Sastra: I was raised Catholic and all members of my very large family are Catholic. I have never believed, and being an atheist is a piece of cake for me. However, I have never really divorced myself from the culture of my family, and therefore, remain culturally Catholic, in a weird way.
Example...When I was born, I received a crucifix from my grandmother that hung (creepily) over my bed. When I went to college I took it with me and hung it up, without ever considering if it had supernatural siginificance. It was only when a friend pointed it out, that it ever occurred to me as a contradiction.
It is sometimes very strange.
Every religion wants to retain as many members as possible, because it affects the number of representatives they get in Heaven when the districts are redrawn every century.
"Since god does not exist, and nor does hell I fail to see the problem. "
I was explaining why in Catholicism excommunication sends people to hell even though it's not explicitly a "Go to Hell" magic spell (No Catholic in 400 years has gotten up to the Epic Level needed to cast that spell).
The idea is it cuts you off from the Holyspirit and thus you can't be forgiven for sins. Since Jesus and absolution of sins are the only way to heaven, you're SOL. You could NEVER sin again from that day, but that's understood to be impossible as basic human actions are sinful.
Excommunication is saying an act is SO bad that person does not deserve the infinite forgiveness of God (no, I never said it was consistent).
On another note and slightly OT, I can accept that priestly (and nun-ly? oh wait, they get jeebus) celibacy is a problem with the church, but last time I heard, lack of getting some does not typically result in child-rape. Forced celibacy, if it is even possible with humans, has problems in its own right. I think the celibates' fear of congress with equals is a more telling indicator of the compulsion to rape.
Christianism seems to really suck, huh?
Question:
The church my parents forced me into was Lutheran (Missouri Synod, if it matters). Is the procedure really just as simple as writing a letter to the specific church you left? Or is there any more to it than that?
For all the info on leaving Catholicism and Mormonism online, I can't seem to find any official Lutheran procedure for getting stricken from church records.
I wish that the title of this post were "They're never going to give you up". Also, I wish that my college campus were having Zombies v. Humans tomorrow. That is all.
sizzzlerz asks,
Long after I stopped any association with the church of my youth my mother still thought of me as a member of that church. She thought I was just going through a phase. Bothering to take official action to have my name removed from their books actually changed our relationship for the better.
i have a signed and stamped letter of resignation from the church of sweden
I was purged from membership in the Presbyterian church in the mid 80s. I needed to "pledge" (tithe) or be removed from membership. Guess which I chose?
Interestingly, a friend of mine got the same letter, never responded, and is still a member. He attends as often as I do.
Did I spell 80s wrong? Fuck...
I actually did this baptism for the dead thing as a teenager. SO creepy. Indoctrination had a strong hold at that time.
It was not an easy process to officially leave the Mormon church. They desperately want their official numbers as high as possible. It's their claim to the world that they're the One True Church. After I submitted my official written request to be removed from their records, Mormon higher-ups actually came to my house, unannounced, to try to dissuade me from leaving. WTF? I had made it clear that I thought (knew) their cult was a complete load of B.S., and they still wanted me back!
Mr T@17-
I am so using that for the rest of my life.
(sorry for 3 in a row)
#34-
No, I didn't. It just makes a zero lower case in this font, I guess. 80s, 80s, 80s...
Since God doesn't exist, the Church doesn't really exist, therefore you elonged to an imaginary church.
Thats why you can't leave; you were never there to begin with.
elonged = Belonged
This also annoys me to no end, as a baptized and confirmed (the latter was my fault) catholic.
On the one hand, the church uses this to lie about their numbers (I would think it's probably half or less of what they claim to be their devotees). Only like 1% of people (or less) I know go to church every sunday. Most do say they "believe" in god, but functionally every day they're just atheists.
On the other hand, why in the world should we bother and give one minute of our time to push papers through some idiotic bureaucracy only to be "free"? We're already as far as we're concerned.
So I think that we should bring awareness any time it's possible that this number includes many atheists and non-practicing catholics. I mean, even Thunderf00t in his latest video falls for this, he ends it by stating that "1 in 6" people in the world believe the pope is infallible. No, they don't. Even among practicing catholics, that number is a fraction of baptized people, let alone just baptized ones.
That lying statistic of "one billion" catholics should be undermined to the point of triviality.
Oops should be above "Even among practicing catholics, that number is a fraction of devote people, let alone just baptized ones."
Totally worth it for me, even with the home intrusion part. If my name were still associated with the Mormon church, the shame would be great. Finally receiving that official letter in the mail that they had completed the "excommunication" process was very liberating to me in a psychological sense.
The nightmares of being trapped in the Mormon church continued for about 20 years, but that's a different story . . .
I too am in the process of defecting from the Catholic Church using the resources given at that www.countmeout.ie.
I sent the letter to the archbishop of the diocese in which I was baptised, and got a letter (eventually) to the effect that they were sending it to the diocese in which I now live. Which seems like a totally different result than PaddyK got - they don't know what they're doing!
I got a letter (eventually) from the secretary of the diocese in which I now reside saying that they would remove me from the register if I really wanted, but that if I wanted to come and talk to them they were available to me. (www.countmeout.ie had said this would happen). If they did not hear from me they would go ahead and make a note of defection on my records. I am waiting for that to happen. I will be so happy when it does.
"make a note of defection on my records"
Don't you just love how they make it sound like some sort of deep betrayal, like YOU are the one who's done something wrong? The cults should have to "defect" from us atheists -- they're the ones being offensive and betraying reason and reality.
I'm working on being excommunicated. My current plan is to sneak in at the end of mass and steal one of their nasty little crackers to hold for ransom and do fun things to it until I am excommunicated. It should be a lot more fun than dealing with the child molesters directly, I can webcam burning the cracker with an open flame, microwave it until it melts, puree in blender, put it in the g-string of a tans-gender stripper. The possibilities are endless! why stop at one cracker!
I'll steal lots of crackers, until the nuns are on Guard at every church!
Yes, I have a dream
Hum, I had a similar surprise at the Catholic church in my city, only more, hum, extensive. The only time when I had some "business" there (funeral arrangements for my grandmother) I found there's no record whatsoever there about my family, we had a wedding (my grandmom's) and three baptisms (me, my mom and my grandmom) performed there.
Or maybe dozens of families, including my own, conspired to make me believe we were baptised Catholic? Yeah, that must be it!
Just don't care.
If you worry that much about debaptising and all that nonsense, you're just giving the church power.
"If you worry that much about debaptising and all that nonsense, you're just giving the church power."
I think it's the opposite of that. We're trying to diminish their power. They use member numbers as a claim to truth and power. Mormon missionaries spout membership numbers when they proselytize to try to convince the unwitting that they should join this large and ever-growing "true" church. Maybe it's not a big deal to some, but I definitely don't want to be associated with the propaganda. Reducing their numbers, even by one person at a time, is a move in the right direction. If all those who don't attend and/or think their church is B.S. were to up and quit officially, it could do some real damage to churches' standing.
I was baptized because my paternal grandparents were devout Lutherans (it happens).
Given that my scumbag father disappeared from my life after the divorce, along with his "good christian" parents and the baptism paperwork. My mother can't remember the name of the church they attended, never mind what ward of the looney bin they were in so I could ask them to remove me. WELS (oh please no)? Misery Snot--er, Missouri Synod (very unlikely, thank goodness)? ELCA?
I guess it doesn't matter. I hate to think I'm on their rolls somewhere, but the mere thought of willingly going into the enemy camp gives me the heebie-jeebies. However, if they don't have any records of PZ, when he and his family actually attended one of their churches, if the Misery Snots couldn't find a record of me after checking when my mother sent me to one of their indoctri--er, elementary schools, then I'm probably even more forgotten.
I'm used to that, so no big deal.
Mormon missionaries spout membership numbers when they proselytize to try to convince the unwitting that they should join this large and ever-growing "true" church.
I've had the various religious rube try that one on me, too, and I always ask them what my mom did when my brother tried the "everybody's doing it!" argument:
"If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you jump, too?"
I swear, most religious people seem to be raised by wolves--no offense to wolves. What else could explain not having the cliff scenario drilled into their heads?
"the "everybody's doing it!" argument"
Reminds me of a sign on the wall of my high school math class: "Truth is not determined by how many believe." That one is a gem.
#47:
Why don't you read the comments before making such an idiot of yourself?
Do the Catholics chase you down like the Scientologists do when you try to leave? It's simply baffling to me that people allow these extortion rackets to create any concern for their illusions of control.
This is one more thing to thank my parents for. They never had me or my brother baptized because they wanted us to choose for ourselves when we were old enough.
I was reading about the government collected "church tax" and I saw something that made me smile.
"Taxpayers in Iceland are obligated to pay a congregation tax[3] (Icelandic sóknargjöld) to the recognized religious organization of their choice. Those who do not belong to any recognized religious organization pay the same amount to the University of Iceland. The Church of Iceland receives governmental support beyond the congregation taxes paid by its members."
ironically if you chose not to pay the "protection money" to the church instead it goes to the University of Iceland.
it's funny how once again people must choose between faith and Knowledge
I had to get my kids baptized as part of the requirements for their adoption. We chose an Episcopal church that shares space with a Jewish synagogue. Fascinating place.
This turned out to be handy because we had trouble getting a passport for my son. They will accept a baptismal certificate as proof of identity, for some reason.
Once the adoptions were final, we stopped going to church, and haven't had the impulse to return.
Hooray - I now have a way to opt out of a bad decision at age 13. To paraphrase Preston Sturges, a girl of 13's practically an idiot anyway...
I took one down with me when I got myself excommunicated a couple of year ago.
http://sneerreview.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
I was Lutheran baptized and confirmed, though that's hardly surprising -- I'm a preacher's kid. Once I left for college, that was it for churchgoing (except when visiting the folks). I stopped believing well before that, and really I don't think I ever did believe in any deep (non-childish) sense.
Dave Dell (#20) said,
I'm surprised at that. My father's flavor (LCA then, ELCA since) generally considers you to be in communion as long as you do. Services at Dad's old church include a welcome to communion for anyone who considers him or herself a confirmed Christian.
In any case, I've never sought or received formal excommunication. Maybe they just can't find me. I'm not interested in expending any effort to have myself formally removed from the church, since pragmatically I'm no longer participating and the ELCA doesn't seem to be making any claims of influence based on membership numbers as the Catholics and LDS seem to do.
Personally, I don't think you should be forced to, "formally," leave anything. You stop going and there ya go. I don't have to fill out any forms to shop at Walmart instead of Publix.
That said, you should try to leave the mormon cult. You can't. First, you have to send a formal letter using specific key phrases. If you don't mention that any further contact will be considered harassment and charges will be files, you will be love-bombed. You will be asked to meet with the bishop. The missionaries will hound you. People who never gave you the time of day are suddenly at your doorstep wanting to be your best friend.
If you don't say that you'll pretty much take it personally if they start rumors about your personal life, they try to get you excommunicated because good people don't leave the cult.
Finally, when they get around to allowing you to actually leave (there's a 30 day manditory waiting period. They need to show you one last time just who's boss, and then sometimes they just, "forget"), you're just taken off the active rolls and moved to the inactive rolls. You are never removed. Ever.
Of course your family will disown you anyway.
http://www.wikihow.com/Leave-the-Mormon-Church-Gracefully
http://www.lds-mormon.com/djexitletter.shtml
http://www.irr.org/mit/exit-letters.html
http://www.exmormon.org/remove.htm
Not everyone will want to leave (although I would probably recommend it!). I have been toying with the idea of a Christianity Compatibility Layer for Freethinkers and Atheists, akin to the Windows Compatibility Layer that Mac and Linux users can install to run Windows programs (if they *really* want to). Perhaps it is a flawed concept, but please have a look at http://churchofjesuschristatheist.blogspot.com and leave a comment! The Church of Jesus Christ Atheist welcomes you :-)
In Germany, you have to opt out of paying the church-tax. I'll have to do that if/when I ever move back, and Ive been trying for ages to get my mom to opt out, too. until now she refused, claiming she sees them as a charity. Maybe after the massive scandals she'll finally change her mind.
>#59 I stopped believing well before that, and really I don't think I ever did believe in any deep (non-childish) sense.
Is it even possible to believe in a non-childish way, though?
I'm eating gubmint bean soup.
recipe:
1)be poor enough to receive gubmint beans, or know someone who does....
:-p
WTF?
interestingly, I managed to post #64 in the wrong thread. Teh Ooops.
@ Jadehawk #62
I did that several years ago (also ex-Lutheran) so I guess they have removed me from their records.
However, I don't know if this is enough for ex-Catholics wanting to leave the RCC and if they still use you to boost their numbers.
And btw, in some states the bastards charge quite a hefty fine if you want to opt out of paying the church-tax. Fortunately, where I live, I didn't have to pay anything when I left the church but I don't know if they changed it since then.
Why do you care if your abdication is formally recognized by the authorities of an institution?
That you have decided to no longer be affiliated with those ideas is primarily important to you.
(And then you might consider it important to let other members know why you refuse to no longer be thought of as a member of the group - that's spread by personally interacting with other members of the group)
Members of a group, or authorities of a group, do not "allow" you to leave: you decide to do so and then do it.
Any of their huffing-and-puffing about what you must do get them to formally acknowledge your leaving of a group is mind-games of their trying to still control you. Phht
Slighlty off topic:
Archbishop: Secularism is the Cause of Nazism, Stalinism, Mass Murder, and Abortion
WTF! Now I want to emigrate to Iceland as soon as it's no longer bankrupt!
Once again you're braver than I. That said, mine probably won't leave at least as long as the grandparents are still alive anyway – on the other hand, even they don't like Pope Palpatine.
I still haven't opted out myself (same system in Austria as in Germany, for the same... ehem... historical reasons); being a student, I don't need to pay anyway. :-) Could be an interesting discussion come September, when I'll defend my thesis and opt out one way or another.
Zahlet keine Kirchensteuer
an die schwarzen Ungeheuer
– Sticker from Red Vienna from maybe the 1980s. "Pay not church tax unto the black[-robed] monsters".
Good question. I've read a book by Hans Küng (a Catholic theologian so progressive he was... banned from teaching at least) about science and religion. Turns out he knows little science, and on the last pages it comes out he only believes because he wants to believe. That was outright disappointing.
Hey! Wrong thread! :-)
My opinions.
The strongest reason for defection only occurs in those countries where if one is a member of a church, some tax money is deducted from you that goes to that church. And a defection means that the money does not go to the church.
No doubt I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Austria, Germany, Sweden and Switzerland are on that list, and there may be others.
There are other reasons - in Ireland, for example, each of the defections has to be read and responded to by a priest. So far approaching 9,000. I can imagine, with some pleasure, the effect on the morale of the priests concerned reading well thought out and expressed reasons for leaving, reading abuse of the catholic church, or, no doubt in some cases, both together.
Perhaps - with luck - some few priests might be open and honest enough with themselves to see the merit of repeated declarations of defections, and do a Dan Barker.
Further, as defections rise, that people are defecting gets more media coverage, and more people get to know about the possibility of defection, there can be, perhaps, positive feedback into the number of defections.
Then again, many defectors report a feeling of relief at getting out of it, at recognising themselves as ex rather than lapsed catholics.
Were I a lapsed catholic, I'm pretty sure that I would take the trouble to formally defect. I hope many who were born or misled into the faith do defect from it. The prospects of doing much good by so doing are perhaps not high. The prospect of doing any good by remaining technically a member of the church seem to me to be non existent.
I guessed that expression might produce a response. What I meant was that as a child, I naturally adopted the attitudes of my parents and their friends, who were (not surprisingly) predominantly committed Christians. So my own experience is that it is possible to believe in a childish (unconsidered) was by osmosis, more or less.
As to the possibility of non-childish belief, though, I can't really say. I know I never held any such belief after the age of ten or twelve. Who can enter the mind of another and determine what they truly believe?
All I can say is that my father, through most of his life, acted as though he believed in the doctrines of his ordained faith. During his ministry (partly as a parish pastor, partly as a hospital chaplain) he did a lot of good work in counseling. There were some hints that toward the end of his life (he's not dead, but that's not far off now) he may have entertained some doubts.
(Cue Monty Python: "I'm not dead yet!")
To those who think it's silly, or giving the Church power, to officially leave, I have this to say:
I debated this before deciding to officially leave. I resented that there was something in THEIR power to affect my status.
But still ...
The biggest reason is that I no longer want them to count me among their one billion adherents. Of course, one departure isn't going to make a difference (they're hardly going to claim 999,999,999 members now!). But just like voting, you do what you can, and if ENOUGH people vote the same way, it'll have impact. It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
Secondly it was an absolute protest against the child abuse. They are in no way getting away with doing this in my name. And seeing as their excuse for covering up was that the Church needed to keep looking perfect so that the faithful would still keep believing and not risk their salvation, then they bloody well WERE doing it in my name, or trying to.
And third, it's symbolic. And symbolism is important to humans. Or to me at least.
Odd, no one brought up my first thought
"Like they're not going to lie about their numbers anyway"
@Ing post 74
The numbers, in all countries I know of, might be lied about by the church, but the official figures come from census returns not baptismal records. Coupled, in those states where tax is an issue, with legal defections, AFAIK.
I, perhaps optimistically, foresee that in forthcoming censuses in Ireland and elsewhere a lot of nominal Catholics on the last census not being Catholic on the next one.
David
Katha Pollitt has an opinion piece at The Nation, called "Papal Indulgences" about the endless freakshow known as the Catholic Child Rapists Scandal.
My favorite part of it:
Norwegian here, another country with a mandatory church tax*). The snag here being that you can't opt out of it -- the best you can do is to prove you are a member of another religious or similar organization, in which case the State is required to fund that organization with an equivalent amount of money as they would otherwise have paid Statskirken (Church of Norway) if you were a member. The only non-theist organization I found that fit the criteria were the Humanists, so I joined up for the sole porpose of getting my money somewhere worthwhile. (After the usual routine of filling out forms to be stricken from the CoN records and getting the usual 'we're there for you if you want to talk' response, of course.)
Basically, everybody is considered a member of CoN until they prove otherwise. Amusing little spectacle a few years ago when somebody realized that the increasing number of muslim and other immigrants were messing up the statistics, and tried to fix it by excempting those born of foreign parents from automatically being considered CoN. Which lead to the King (decended from a danish prince and english princess and formally head of the Church) being disqualified :-) They fixed that a lot faster than they fix people mistakenly getting on the church registers...
*)Church tax isn't considered a tax formally, I should mention, the State pays the CoN a certain amount of money per member per year. But that money comes out of the general taxes, so the effect is the same.
has nothing to do with bravery; my mom is the last person in our family to still pay the damnable thing (though I suspect at least some of them are just stingy, not non-believers :-p )
@ Jadehawk #65
it's complicated. We found our own birth mother through a mutual friend who was a midwife. At that time, in our state, adoptions were agency only - and only a very few would allow open adoptions. And at that time, the only adoption agencies in our state were church-related. Catholic Charities wouldn't even look at us because I'd been divorced and my husband had a back injury that qualified him (in their minds) as handicapped, so they'd only let us adopt a handicapped child (turned out David had neurological damage anyway, but that's another store). After much song and dance and a quite a story, we found a small agency across the state that would push our paperwork so we could adopt David... but the judge they used and the agency itself required as part of the first year approval process time that we be church goers - and not just attending, but being *involved* with the church - and have paperwork from our pastor proving it. So for a year I volunteered in the sunday school, and we went to all sorts of during-the-week events... but the day the adoption was final, we sorta vanished. Tori's adoption is a whole 'nuther story, and involved me going to State committee hearings to get the laws changed.
as I said, the church we selected was a joint church and synagogue, and the rabbi was a fascinating man, so it wasn't *that* bad.
I see. thanks for the explanation, Becca.
I think that's a pretty good example of how letting churches be charities/agencies of any sort is a REALLY bad idea. In Germany, the problem is childcare, because all the non-crappy kindergardens are religious, and you can't send your kid to one you aren't paying taxes to, usually.
too much mixing of church and state and business :-(
The Problem with Catholicism:
This is my brother's gravestone. Kevin was fearless and a risk-taker; but in the end, religion got him anyway. I'm pretty sure he's not "Safely Home", though.
Now, to get back On-Topic:
Bill Donohue - go fuck yourself.
I can only speak for Denmark, but here you opt-in by becoming a member of a church (through baptizing or whatever other ritual they have), and opt out by leaving the church, officially. This means that if you have ever opted in (or have been opted in when you were a kid), you will have to go through the formal steps to leave of whatever particular denomination you belong to.
If you're a member of the state church, it means filling out a form, send it to your parish and wait for a confirmation (and a "name attest" to replace your baptism attest).
I'm sure Paddy K. will survive. I find what Kristjan write in #82 interesting though - a "name attest"? In the USA (and in some other places) the Certificate of Live Birth is a mandatory civil document which has a name on it. Doesn't Denmark have a similar document? I don't even know if you can fill in a birth certificate with "will name later", but even if you could the parents would be required to fill out the appropriate civil forms then. It's somewhat reminiscent of certificates of marriage - there is the official civil form and then whatever your particular church likes.
The Roman Catholic Church uses its membership rolls to throw its weight around, attempting to influence public policy and to demand a seat at the international table. They then try to keep contraceptives illegal, force childbirth on women, prevent people from using condoms to prevent AIDS, insist that gays can't marry, etc. etc.
I wonder if some small part of the bureaucratic resistance to folks requesting formal documents of separation might not be a suspicion that it has become trendy. I know that at one point, the Flat Earth Society got downright touchy about granting new memberships because so many people were doing it for the yuks.
Meanwhile, from the top of the page Rowan 'spineless coward' Williams has now withdrawn his earlier condemnation of The Ctholic Church as "loosing all credibility" and issue an apology for any offence caused.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8601991.stm
Guess it just leaves it to the atheists to organise the moral outrage.
Can't leave it to the Christians who apparently can't organise piss-up-in-a-brewery, as a metaphor for showing *some* leadership on this issue since they claim, do they not, a moral insight lacking in the rest of us.
Happy Zombie Day!
PZ, the Ministry of Truth probably erased all record of you when they found out you had defected to "sciencism".
I could have sworn it was "I wish I knew how to quit you."
Re: #69
This is the same retard who said that we should concentrate on World Youth Day (the fact that it was Catholic didn't get mentioned) when questioned about the rape of two young girls by a Catholic priest.
Here is the original link:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/thank-god-were-not-all-atheists-bishop-s…
Since the site takes comments, please feel free to post a few.
Thanks.
Whats interesting is if you're Jewish. I don't want to leave (mostly out of a deep respect for the thousands of years of tradition), but even if I wanted to, there's no way.
Not only that, but if you're Jewish and female, you will always be Jewish, your children will all always be Jewish, your daughter's children will always be Jewish, their daughter's kids, etc. There is NO way to EVER opt out of said identity.
The most ironic part of that is that the more conservative the Rabbi, the stricter they are on the mother's descent always working bit. Some reform groups stop counting someone as Jewish if they convert to a different religion, but the Orthodox don't.
Actually, the name attest is a "birth and name attest", and the baptism attest is a "birth and baptism attest".
The Danish system is pretty weird, and based upon some old systems. Basically, all parents have to register their child by their local church within 14 days of the birth (the midwife also registers the birth, to ensure that all births are registered). The church then sends the information about the birth to the central register, where the relevant data is registered and a social security number is issued.
A lot of people have complained about the church's role in this matter, but so far it doesn't seem like the politicians are going to change it.
Registering a birth at the church doesn't make the child a member of said church.
I should point out that the church has to be part of the Danish State Church, or belong to other recognized religions. Technically it doesn't have to be a church as such, it can be a synagogue, if you are a member of a Jewish congregation, but it can't be a mosque, as the Islam congregations are not acknowledged by the Danish state, and as such isn't allowed to do this.
Hmmm... this comment probably confused more than it helped. I think I need to write a blogpost about this subject at some stag, since it will take quite a few words to explain it properly.
Fun stuff, as always, but this "believers are just as smart" angle is a hard one. Of course believers can be extremely gifted in many intellectual endeavors, and can probably fix my plumbing, but on the basic existential questions, they flunk. They lack intellectual fortitude, they cannot examine themselves, so therefore they are stoo- oops, don't want to offend. They are so very, very smart. Geniuses, one and all.
When I was leaving the Mormon church, I got a glossy four-colour pamphlet urging me to return to the fold. It had a picture of Jesus and the current First Presidency, and a smarmy message about how all those who go astray can be welcomed back with open arms, if only they repent.
I know it's hard for some folks to leave, although maybe they created the precedent which I personally wielded like a bat when it came time for me to exeunt, stage left. I wrote my exit letter to SLC, knowing they were going to pull that same ol' shit, and tell me to talk with my local bishop since I might have unresolved sins to deal with. (Which was stupid, because Local Bishop wouldn't even have my records. He'd have to requisition them from SLC.) So as soon as I got THAT letter, I wrote the Local Bishop, noted that I had not been to church in X number of years, that my issue was one of disbelief, and that according to US law once they had received my letter of resignation I was no longer subject to their disciplinary actions. (I cited the cases listed on this page.) I also stated that if they informed friends and family before I did, or if they incorrectly allowed friends and family to believe I had been excommunicated, I would be forced to take legal action. I would also take legal action if I received any other contact beyond a letter confirming my name removal/receipt of resignation. Two weeks later, I recieved a short typewritten acknowledgement that my request had gone through and I was no longer a church member. Relatively painless for me.
I wanted to do it while I was young and unmarried and without children, since I didn't want the kids ending up on the church records ever. Thus it was pretty easy. The only downside is, my mother doesn't appear to listen to me when I say I'm no longer a church member. I swear, I've said this three or four times, and she keeps asking me about church conference or if I want a subscription to the Ensign.
I disagree. Following their rules to try to remove that power is giving them power they never had in the first place. I'm not Catholic no matter how many Popes think I am.
I was christened as a baby to satisfy my Catholic grandmother. If the Catholic church is still counting me as a member then they are lying. I have no reason to believe they won't continue to lie just because they give me a piece of paper saying they won't.
I think the best way to vote against the Catholic church is to stop going and stop giving them money. Let them continue to count however many people as members as they like. When they can't afford to light the churches that are empty, they will have no power. And, at least in the US, when they can't back up the number of members they claim with votes, they will have no power.
These I don't disagree with.
It doesn't give them power, but it sends a message: enough people leaving is a measurable signal of disgust. They'll get it.
I followed links from the countmeout.ie site to get the defection form applicable for Australia, and sent it off to the parish I was reputed to have been baptized in. No reply so far; as I said to my mum when I told her I'd quit, "Maybe they just stuff pillows with them". More likely it takes the church bureaucracy a significant amount of time to work its way through the backlog, let alone any 'cooling-off' period they may impose on themselves.
Anyway, I'm officially out as far as I'm concerned; before that, I was unofficially out for 20 years or so.
Okay, I read the letter that the priest in Paradise wrote and am at a sort of at a "Y" in the road. I feel like the appropriate response would be to have Paddy write a letter to the priest saying thank you for your thoughts. I have carefully investigated my beliefs and would like to be removed from the church membership. Is it really worth it to go high and to the right on how stupid it is to be a Catholic or how pissed you are about the current situation with the kiddy-fucking? The letter from the priest was pretty dull and off-topic (how does the first confession have anything to do with Paddy wanting out) but it wasn't mean spirited. For some reason I get the feeling like the priest is doublechecking to make sure Paddy understands what he is doing (in the priest's eyes I am sure this is a big deal). Sort of like a Dr. doublechecking that you are sure you want to have a vasectomy...or am I way off here?