I don't know what to say. This is a Christian's idea of an argument against abortion — not just exaggerating abortion into murder, but also by trivializing rape.
Atheists always use rape as an argument for justifying killing because they want to justify abortion. But is rape really that bad? It's a horrible experience but you get over it with time. If you use it to justify murder you're never going to get over it. Imagine you have a painful divorce. Would you murder your children after because they remind you of your ex husband? Of course not. I think any woman would easily tell you that a painful divorce is worse than rape but it's not an excuse to kill your baby, so why is rape?
Christian women can also take a lot more than atheist women. Maybe this is part of the reason that atheists get so hung up about this. Christian women can turn to Christ or worship God in their hearts and endure great suffering. I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins. You are the one who has to ask more true Christian women about this. You're out of touch and trying to make a big deal out of something just for shock value.
This is the kind of person you don't argue with…just walk away.
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That is...horrifying. I find his last sentence to be very ironic. Right, we're out of touch. We abhor rape and don't think women should suffer a burden forced upon them. And we're out of touch. So when someone rapes and impregnates this persons daughter, I'm sure he/she will just "get over it".
PZ, you didn't include the part of the argument where raping a married woman or virgin is "theft". I thought that was particularly special.
Speaking as a woman, I can only say that this guy is one sick fuck.
Really, I'm just dumbstruck by this idiot.
Hopefully, he'll commit a criminal act, go to prison, and experience rape firsthand.
Perhaps it would change his perspective for the better.
Only a male version of the species could say this (I hope). What an ass. He can take his suffering fairy god and shove it.
There is no murder. Murder has a specific legal definition, which in the US for now, does not include abortion. Keep your twisted morality out of my law.
WTF! Forgot his meds did he? That is a really skewed psyche in that noggin!
You can't see it, but I am facepalming as hard as I can.
I find this deplorable. Also, if this happened to me, being pregnant would make it so much harder to get over, since it'd be a constant reminder of the violation that's happened, utterly afraid of the future, the unpleasant biological consequences not helping any.
Uhg, what the hell.
Christian women can take more than atheist women ?
Huh. Is that why the divorce rate is so much higher in red states. Either that, or men are just that much bigger asses - of which this fool provides ample evidence.
As someone who has been raped, I can answer this: Yes, it is.
This is the kind of person I give a good, swift kick inna fork to then walk away. Crispy fried Christ, what is wrong with some people?
This kind of WTF'ery boggles my mind.
oh, we have asked the Christian women. do you know what they answered? "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion"
callous asshole.
What’s so bad about a woman getting raped? I mean, it’s not like she’s the one who committed a sin, like, say, having the audacity to defended herself to seizing a man by his private parts.
Deuteronomy 25:11
Would you murder your children after because they remind you of your ex
something tells me a whole bunch of people just started considering a new idea...
I could have stopped reading here.
I should have stopped there.
I didn't.
Abortion=Murder
Divorce>Rape
Crucifixion>Rape
Murder>Rape
Nope, still as revolting as mathematical equations.
Yeah, I mean, getting forcibly penetrated is a little inconvenient...but being forced to endure 9 months of medical risk, severe discomfort, stretch marks, lost wages, possibly lost job, 24+ of excruciating labor, 18 years of struggle and sacrifice, difficulty finding a partner who wants to help raise your kids, plus a lifetime of responsibility? That's bliss. It's what every real woman wants.
FACE-DESK.
You'd think people who pretend to think fetuses are babies with rights just like an adult would be more aware of the risks involved in a high-stress pregnancy- say, one where the mother has PTSD because she's just been traumatized by a psychopath. There've been all sorts of studies that show the worst thing you can do for a fetus epigenetically is to gestate through severe stress, especially PTSD. It raises fetal cortisol levels, which continues through birth and for years to come. Elevated cortisol is associated with high risk for anxiety disorders later on.
Just more proof that it's not about the fetus at all. It's about the idea that men own and can take control of the means of human reproduction with impugnity.
I am absolutely dumbfounded and may vomit on my keyboard.
Holy fucking shit, dude. Fuck that guy.
"I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins."
Lemmie see, couple of hours nailed to a tree followed by "death", and then up and about a couple of days latter good as new? Yep that tops anything I can think of!
One day of suffering then eternal life vs one little attack by a relative or priest and a lifetime of suffering...nope no contest here.
So nice to see that you can still have logic hunted down and killed when ever required.
This post makes me want to be violent, but i think im just going to be violently ill.
Floyd Rubber. Paging Floyd Rubber. I think we might have a little job for you...
Well see Jesus had a bad day knowing full well that he would wind up back in heaven since he is god or something or other and that is totally worse than being raped.
#3 Hopefully, he'll commit a criminal act, go to prison, and experience rape firsthand.
Honestly, I'm not sure that'll even change his mind about women being raped considering how he doesn't think they're are human. I mean according to that guy, anything that happens to women is inconsequential (you know, unless they're denying him something.)
Fuck, this is disgusting and terrifying. I can't believe there's people like this out there.
*Looks up at the sky* Wow, floyd has a really explicit bat signal doesnt he?
There's that good, moral, christian reasoning - it's not possible to do evil things to a woman, she's just chattel, after all.
*spits*
Rape is very popular in the Babble.
This is the kind of mentality that sees their daughters as property - and, of course, if God didn't mean you to have sex with your daughters, he wouldn't have given them to you. [Direct quote from a Mormon who had been raping his 9 year old, from one of my mother's cases.]
I'd bet "life of the mother" wouldn't be a good reason for an abortion in his eyes, either.
So. I've been having these "discussions" with certain people of the theist type about morality and whether or not any moral imperative can be considered objective. And just when I'm about to agree that "don't rape" is one moral imperative I can accept that is objective, along comes this moron. Who tosses the whole "moral argument for god" right into the shitter without even realizing it.
Great job, fella. I'm sure your daughters will be proud of you. Oh wait, you don't have daughters? Wife? Girlfriend? Human companion? Human acquaintance? Yeah. Thought not.
Fucking seriously?
Like stealing your own car eh?
'Cause you know, women don't have thoughts or feelings or autonomy or anything. Just like a car or a watch.
Rape isn't so bad huh? Ive got a big, purple 12 inch silicon dick and no lube for ya pal. Let's see how you like that.
With love and kisses for my fellow man, and no misanthropy at ALL, I remain;
KJ
Not quite PZ. You left out the part where you puts down the blunt object you snatched up because killing the fucker will make you a hypocrite.
People like this is why I left the xian religion.
Didn't miss it for 1 femtosecond.
Some of them have made similar comments about incest. That it isn't that big a deal when a father rapes his young daughter and she gets pregnant.
@10, from the link:
well, hard to argue with that.
But is rape really that bad? It's a horrible experience but you get over it with time.
Fantastic! Spoken like a true rapist! No doubt Christian rape victims will be forming a cheerful, prayerful line to support the assertion that:
Certainly after being raped the first thing I'd want to do would be to kneel in prayerful gratitude and thank the God/Christ who, unfortunately, turned a deaf ear while I was pleading to be saved from being violated and brutalised.
Smoggy
PS Dear Brother in Christ, you really need to spend a few weeks in a cell with my friend Floyd Rubber. Floyd's got a foot-long steak truncheon, and he says that in the spirit of Christian Brotherhood he is willing to use it to help you prove your theory that "no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins." I'm sure once he's cleaned your tonsils the long way, we'll have a better idea whether those who decry rape are really "out of touch and trying to make a big deal out of something just for shock value."
Wow, that is nauseatingly ignorant. I actually am at a loss for words... Yet again, our species disappoints the hell out of me.
WHAT THE FUCK! I want to PERSONALLY rape this asshole right fucking now. And im not even gay. I have so much hate for this person right now
The motherfucking sonofabitch who wrote that is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil. He needs to be excluded from society; he’s simply uncivilized.
One thing I’ve never gotten and still don’t get is how Christers seem to think that what the Jesus character endured is somehow vastly worse than anything else anybody else has ever experienced.
Um…seriously? According to the story, it was probably the “easiest” crucifixion in the entire history of humanity. He only lasted, what, a few hours? Most people were still alive days later.
And let’s not forget that the dude was a SuperZombie who didn’t actually die; his reanimation was just a couple days later.
Really, Jesus didn’t suffer and die at all; he had a bad morning and slept it off.
I can’t imagine what it must be like to be either raped or crucified, but I’d pick Jesus-style crucifixion over rape in a heartbeat.
Cheers,
b&
--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''
I can't believe I clicked on that link in the OP.
The guy literally calls rape "adultery".
I need some mindbleach stat. This guy is just unimaginably vile. And the internet gives him a free platform.
D.N.
I AM gay. And I dont want to RAPE him. I might pay someone to violate him with a large, unlubricated sex toy. But rape him myself? Not with a stolen cock.
KJ
My Grampa said that I should show people like that the back of my neck!
My Grampa said that I should shoot people like that in the back of the neck!
I think that the first thought to someone like this is "Gee, if this had happened to my mom and she had an abortion, I would not exist!"
And that thought is the primary one. No matter the effects of what such a rape scenario and subsequent forced bearing entails for the one raped.
Nothing else matters compared to the plum existence of the person thinking about any scenario.
He's backtracking personally, without thinking about how impossible it would have been to him to have valued his own existence if he never had existed.
Lack of empathetic capability.
It really gets to them if you say what would you do if it was your wife who was pregnant with the product of rape. You can watch as they get the Blue Screen of Death!
Wow, Smoggy, did I summon Floyd (@18)? Hell, I didn't even draw a frigging pentagram on the ground!
Sorry but this isn't quite right.
You left out the social disgrace, opprobium, and criticism for being yet again...another unwed mother. Much of which would come from your good xian family, friends, and relatives. A slut.
As xians always remind us, it is the woman's fault for getting raped anyway. If she didn't have a vagina and could bench press 250 pounds, it wouldn't have happened.
What if the rapist had an STD? What if he was HIV+?
Yes a_ray_in_dilbert_space @ 39,
Floyd was definitely summoned by you.
I was writing my post, when suddenly into my head there leapt the thought, "What would Floyd do?"
So I asked Floyd, who said that he could think of nothing more important than reaming a tight, corrosive Christian asshole for a fortnight if it was likely to inject a bit of perspective into the sick fucker's twisted mind.
Hallelujah!
D.N.
What does being gay have to do with your violent fantasies?
I long for the day when this assclown looks back at what he has written and hangs his head in shame. Until then, he needs what the good doctor here (or anyone on hand when this sphincter gasses off again) provides. Edumacation, in his, er, face. I think he should join the rest of the ascetic religious misogynists somewhere far, far away.
Aren't these the same people who then shun a girl who has been raped because she is "unclean" and "used"? And the ones who call her a irredeemable slut if she didn't fight back hard enough to risk death rather than being raped? And yet it's "no big deal"??? The cognitive dissonance is sickening.
I am not a violent person, but I would be sorely tempted to spit on him first.
All I can do is sit here with my jaw dropped in utter disbelief. This individual needs to experience first hand the violation of rape before he makes a claim that it is a horrible experience you get over with time.
I would love to know how much time it takes for him.
I'm atheist and try to think rationally, but this comment makes a lot of sense to me.
If you are operating under the premise that abortion is murder, and that "Jesus is Lord", then most everything else that was said follows logically.
I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape.
But maybe that's just me? How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?
Be careful here. Fundies always, always lie.
And PZ is wrong. No matter how creepy you think xians can be, they can always be creepier. There is no bottom to how low their creepiness can go.
If there was a hell, I can't see some of these guys even being let in there.
Re 42
He doesnt know what its like to be raped. And being gay has nothing to do with it. Dont know why i threw that gem in there, just angry thats all.
Rowan,
I don't agree. Part of being human is the ability to imagine being in a situation you are not actually in. Therapists who treat soldiers with PTSD have started developing their own because they listen to so many horrible things. Perhaps what this person needs is to spend time listening to women who have been raped.
"I think any woman would easily tell you that a painful divorce is worse than rape"
UM... NO. At least not this woman - I'd much rather get divorced than raped. I'd rather get divorced ten times than raped once. I don't know a single woman who would prefer otherwise!
Fine, for this conversation we will say abortion is always unjustified. Now explain to me those self-righteous pricks who picket places like Planned Parenthood that try to prevent unplanned pregnancies and counsel rape victims. Oh, and what about the mothers who aren't fit for whatever reason to raise a child - are you going to be first in line to adopt? What about gays adopting? For many years now, the only justification against gays adopting children has been the supposed "moral ambiguity" of two fathers or two mothers raising a child. Put against murdering children and raped women, surely you would be willing to place a child in a loving home?
I suppose you're right. Being treated like actual human beings with voting rights (contrary to the Bible), the ability to make an income (contrary to the Bible), not being beaten for making her husband angry (contrary to the Bible), not being considered "unclean" during her menstrual periods (contrary to the Bible) and a host of other patristic ideals, atheist women just may have become soft these days. Come on, let's practice a little biblical law on them? I'll bring the stones if you bring your huge male ego!
Meanwhile, atheist women can turn to a therapist for treatment and consider whether they want to keep a reminder of a horrible event in their lives. You know, not every woman who decides not to keep her baby has an abortion. Some do give them for adoption. But, considering the vast numbers of children who are never adopted because you have never put yourself in line to take a child in, that's not so much better, is it?
Interesting. You aren't a woman, but you seem to think you can speak for not just one, but all of them. You have no connection whatsoever to the results of the decisions you make for others, but you are nonetheless assured of your righteousness. In short, your virtues are completely without cost to you because you would never have a reason to make an similar decision in a similar situation.
Yet I and other atheists are the ones who are "out of touch". Riiiiight...
It's sickos like that that give deranged a bad name.
How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?
well, there you have it.
it's the goddamn basic assumptions that are creepy.
this is just what one expects from insane starting points.
And PZ is wrong. No matter how creepy you think xians can be, they can always be creepier. There is no bottom to how low their creepiness can go.
did you miss the "yet" part?
I think his bases are covered.
"Perhaps what this person needs is to spend time listening to women who have been raped."
I can think of a good one to get him started: the woman I know of from Brooklyn who talked about getting all of her front teeth knocked out by the barrel of a gun.
Or the women who were dragged into empty lots by a guy wearing a devil mask on the way home from working the graveyard shift.
Jenn @ 46:
You think that's a good point, do you? I was whacked on the back of the head in a dark parking lot, dragged off, beaten, threatened, tied up and raped at knife point. I was one of the lucky ones, I got out of it with my life. A lot of women don't. If you think a divorce, no matter how acrimonious, is somehow worse, you've got a bit of problem with perspective. Thinking this way, you're also a huge part of the problem. Jesus fuckin' Christ.
And another thing:
I know women who have gone through terrible, painful divorces, and ones that have been raped. Let me tell you - the divorcees are able to "get over" their "horrible experience" far more easily. Most of the women I know who have been raped have never gotten over it, and continue to have issues trusting men, especially sexually, even decades after. Most of the divorcees, on the other hand, are happily dating if not remarried. To even imply that divorce is somehow worse than rape is not only ignorant but revolting.
A fate worse than death.
raven:
I don't believe you. You are either a troll or most likely a male fundie xian kook. There is a multi-ID troll who changes IDs every few hours and you are most likely the one from the Donohue thread.
Damn, the blockquote failed.
It isn't that important. The Jenn troll is almost certainly neither a female, an atheist, or anything but a Troll trolling under multiple IDs. Got to wonder about someone who gets their kicks by trying to sound evil and crazy on a blog.
@Jenn (#46) But maybe that's just me? How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?
Even under his assumptions, he's fetishizing the suffering of both Jesus and women being raped, as well as the suffering of carrying any resultant pregnancy to term, while also trivializing the suffering experienced by real people in great quantity.
For a religion whose ostensible basis (the New Testament) is supposed to be so heavily based on compassion, his is a remarkably cold response (read: creepy) even working within the assumptions he mentions.
The compassionate move would be to empathize with rape victims and not to trivialize their suffering ("Jesus suffered much worse, so suck it up"). Even setting aside for the moment that trivialization, God is supposed to be worshiped because he's God and we're not, so faulting someone for failing to be as resilient to suffering as God (since Christian doctrine holds that Jesus is God), even assuming a belief in all mythology involved, is still cruel.
Even someone doctrinally and dogmatically invested in Jesus Christ would conclude that this guy is a creep.
Only in a bizarro universe where having your life threatened and your body violated isn't nearly as bad as asserting yourself over lyin' cheatin' husband. But other than that, yeah.
@Jenn 46
Well, it's not really logical if he's actually Christian because the bible says that life begins with breath, not with conception.
Comparing two painful things is subjective, but I think many women would say that rape is worse than divorce.
His argument that abortion is murder regardless isn't creepy, it's logical. His argument that rape isn't a big deal is creepy. His argument that the only bad thing about rape is that it might be adultery or theft is creepy. His argument that Christian women don't really suffer when raped is horrifyingly creepy. His argument that a few hours of torture knowing full well that because of it you're going to be resurrected and live forever as an all-powerful being is somehow worse than a random act of violence, violation and abuse that ruins lives with no upside is creepy. The fact that as a dude he thinks he has a place talking about getting pregnant from rape is creepy.
"To even imply that divorce is somehow worse than rape is not only ignorant but revolting."
To these guys, all women are pathetic codependents who'd rather get violently brutalized by a man than legally separated from one. A woman will put up with anything, anything just for a chance to submit to a man.
Really, thinking about women this way is what gets these guys off.
Dollars to donuts this guy watches a constant stream of rape-sim pr0n.
Jenn,
You're a creepy person. As other people have pointed out, his underlying premises are creepy. Of course, never being raped, and not understanding how damaging it can be warps your thinking.
naddyfive,
I think stranger rape is unbelievably horrifying, but most women are raped by someone they know.
We've had the rape discussion before with the misogynist fuckwits who think that any manner of things are worse than rape, who have called rape a "temporary inconvenience," who just don't get being physically violated in such a way that what should be the best of human experience becomes an object of dread and anxiety. For the pitiful comparison of a divorce to being raped, I have to say that I would rather get divorced any day than be raped again.
I'm trying to imagine what my response would be if someone said this to my face. I think it involves creative cursing and yelling, and getting in his personal space as I verbally rip his head off. (I don't think I could purposely physically harm someone. I never have- not even my little sister.)
I hate him and his beliefs with a burning passion. Even so, I could never wish rape on anyone. Not even a monster like this.
I want to puke. Rape is by far the worst thing I have experienced. I've never wanted to punch someone in the face so badly.
Correct me if I'm wrong: the RCC does not teach that abortion is murder. It is interesting to note, in the light of that fact, that Mother Teresa preached the 'abortion is murder' sermon.
DominEditrix @ # 23: ... if God didn't mean you to have sex with your daughters, he wouldn't have given them to you. [Direct quote from a Mormon who had been raping his 9 year old, from one of my mother's cases.]
I hope your mother is a state prosecutor, prison worker &/or executioner.
I realize that most people are raped by people they know. The overwhelming majority of victims are raped by friends, relatives, boyfriends, etc. To the point where I'm loathe to even mention stranger rape in this discussion.
But since acquaintance rape or marital rape wouldn't even count as a crime in the mind of these types, I think it might help to get them started thinking about just how violent a violation rape is by using the most extreme examples of coercion.
I'm with you, Sister. I was raped by another man, once. Even considering the relative lack of violence during my incident (mostly because I was psychologically manipulating him into letting me go), the lasting feelings of violation are still having effects on me many years later. I hope I never learn who this asshat is or where he lives because I may then have means, motive, and opportunity for a violent crime.
When Christians can explain to our satisfaction why an all-powerful god (as theirs is supposed to be) chooses to allows rape to occur when he could easily prevent it, then can they weigh in on a discussion involving it.
Until then they should shut the fuck up.
naddyfive:
Unfortunately, stranger rape isn't rare. Mine (see # 57) was stranger rape.
So was mine in #71. It is indeed common.
So, we're supposed to respect these people and these beliefs. Why why why can't the believers see it for what it is? The babble (that's great, can I steal it from the post above?)is full of murder, rape and various other crimes that even non-believers know are immoral, though it seems the great deluded consider all this OK, 'coz gawd did it. This taints the whole tome. The fact that some deluded idiots can use it to justify their criminal actions is beyond belief. Imagine for a moment if a writer came up with a book based on such themes, eg condoning mass murder etc? It would with some justification, be rated or in some societies banned. Maybe its time to update the babble to reflect modern morality. It's not unheard of to update and edit works of fiction. The only problem would be, that the edited version would end up with about a dozen pages.
The original offender says "a painful divorce is worse than rape."
That pretty much undermines your entire position right there, snookums.
naddyfive,
I get where you're coming from. You're right, they really don't think a person can rape someone who consented to sex before. Fuckers.
Caine,
Truly awful. Rape of any kind isn't rare at all, and too many women know that.
Mother Teresa would be proud. Suffering is good for you, don't ya know. Don't worry, God will make it up to you later.......
This is why many Christians oppose euthanasia of terminally ill people too. Suffering is a necessary thing from God....
It's only we immoral atheists who think suffering is bad and should be minimized whenever possible.
@deriamis #71
I'm so sorry for what you went through.
I'm so stunned by this I can't even begin to formulate a proper response. I don't know how it is for you but when people say things like that it's like I've been punched in the gut. Like those feelings rush back again for a moment... and for that douche bag to say that we "get over it"... I'm just so upset. AND then to say that we should carry to term a pregnancy that's a result of that violence. WTF?
I'm just babbling now. I'm just so stunned. And hurt.
Thanks for making my day worse. This makes me lucid to the truth, but this also makes me puke. I'm speechless.
These people are worse than psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer, who drilled other's people brain to make them sexual zombie slaves.
They are simply mentally wired to have 0% empathy or knowledge of how violence affects people, specially rape.
Shouldn't this person be put through the experience of a rape, such that he can "objectively" decide whether it is something you get over or not?
Christopher Hitchens is right. Religion poisons everything. (Incidentally he happens to be antiabortion).
Amber,
It's hard to understand how someone can be so dismissive of your experience. One thing I can see being a problem with people like this ever getting the trauma of rape is that anyone they know who is raped certainly isn't going to confide in such a jerk. Without that, they can live in their bubble of denial.
If I know someone well enough and they say to me "Rape can't be that common. I don't know anyone who was raped," I look them straight in the eyes and say "Yes, you do." It usually takes a few seconds for the person to get what you're saying, but it does have the tendency to make them think. Problem is, the number of people I feel comfortable enough with to make such a confession to is very small.
Pygmy Loris:
Yes, too many women do. A lot of women don't get to walk away, they end up dead. Now, to the "good, christian man", what happened to me wouldn't matter on a couple of counts: 1) I wasn't a virgin, so it would be my fault for being a slut, and of course, being out at night by myself and not under the watchful eye of a "good, christian man". 2) Ever so thankfully, I did not end up impregnated, so not having a sacred bun in the oven, all I'd merit is an 'it's your fault, honey, now buck up and get over it. Prayin' will help.'
My disgust and contempt for assholes of this stripe simply cannot be expressed in words.
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
Fuckers.
*grabs rolling pin*
*smash*
*smashity-smash!*
*SMASH*SMASH*SMASH*
*gasp* It's like a Supernova of Stupid!
*drops rolling pin*
That's it, I'm done wasting concussive force on this coprosexual. He probably enjoys getting beaten bloody with a rolling pin, anyway.
*grabs syringe*
*tranquilizes creepy rape-loving death-cultist*
*ties him to operating table*
There. Now I'm ready to castrate the piece-o-shit. I don't have any surgical training but in this case that's not really a disadvantage.
The only redeeming thing about this post is how many people have reacted the way they have.
So, let's weigh it up...
Escaping the clammy grip of a christian patriarchal institution which constructs women as chattel, possession, slave...
versus
Being eighteen, fresh in the world, having some man put something in your drink and then take you home, followed by his spending the night putting his penis and hands into you while you are too mashed by the rohypnol to even move, never mind positively object. Then not reporting it, because everyone knows that it's a drop in the ocean, you can't remember it well enough to identify anyone and no one's going to believe you anyway. You don't want to repeat the violation by exposing yourself to a doctor who sees so many of these cases that yours seems only mild to them (which it was, compared with others' experiences - which means you minimise it to yourself as well - oh well, at least there was no knife - at least he didn't kill me - at least I didn't know him so I don't have to see him again) and this adds to the shame and stress of the experience by extending it materially into the aftermath.
And that's just the case where it was reasonably clear-cut. Not including all the times when you've been coerced by patriarchal expectation and entitlement, guilted and manipulated into not saying no, even though you weren't exactly saying yes.
Ten years on, the first (reasonably) detailed account you give of it is an anonymous comment on a blog. And you still can't get near anyone without it feeling rapey.
Yeah. I can totes see how divorce is worse than rape.
What a fucking cock. There are no words. I'm going away now to do some more repressing and recluding.
While this is of course a much-more-overt-than-usual case of theistic fuckwittery, the basic arguments in the quote aren't all that different from ones I have heard again and again and again with regards to the Problem of Evil and the Problem of Hell. In both cases, we hear:
• All suffering is relative to other suffering (contra Liebniz, there can be no best-of-all-possible-worlds), ergo no amount of suffering caused/allowed by God can be "too much"
• Your assertion that the souls of dead Hindu teenagers don't deserve to suffer infinite torture (or that Haitians don't deserve earthquakes) is just emotional and sensationalistic, not a Real Argument
• In the course of a couple hours, Jesus had the worst possible experience ever, so suck it up
That the last point actually contradicts the prior ones is, of course, irrelevant. Jesus gets to break all the rules. In his case, you're not allowed to say "Crucifixion's not so bad," even if you're the old guy in Life of Brian.
Also, I have a feeling we've been smelling some similar fumes regarding child rape ("Yeah, it's bad, but what about the homos?"), but I can't pin down anything specific at the moment.
You know, if he really believed that "there's no such thing as a raped spouse" argument, he would think it would be completely okay for a wife to murder her husband. After all, once they're married they're "one flesh." So at worst it's suicide... but the wife us clearly alive, so she can't be charged with suicide! That would be silly, like charging someone for picking their own pocket!
That whole thing isn't a line of reasoning, and it can't be something he actually uses day to day. It strikes me as a sort of masturbatory thought experiment.
(If I weren't so sure of that, I'd wonder why he was so certain Christian women could endure great suffering...)
Now I'm ready to castrate the piece-o-shit.
I hope you're not too late, and he hasn't already pissed in the gene pool.
False equivalency.
Jesus volunteered for the cross. It was necessary to save humanity (from what, his father's screwups?) and start his religion. Jesus is god, god can do anything. The guy who can raise the dead back to life and heal the sick could have turned all those Pharisees and Romans into frogs with one "poof". He also knew it was just temporary and he would come back to life, rule in heaven, and get his revenge. That is what hell is for and I'm sure his tormentors are there for all eternity.
And why does someone elses suffering such as jesus or John Doe for that matter, excuse and make rape, torture, starvation, beatings and so on OK. It doesn't have anything to do with it.
@sam 86:
Just keep talking. To welcoming people, in welcoming places (like this one). No, it's never going to be all right, but it can be much, MUCH better.
What a cowardly and worthless little piece of shit.
Now I'm ready to castrate the piece-o-shit. I don't have any surgical training but in this case that's not really a disadvantage.
May I recommend the trans-esophogeal route?
**Sam**:
Sam, that's just one more facet of all the horrors rape victims suffer. You survived, that matters. Come on over to the endless thread and talk about all kinds of stuff, no repression needed.
Yes we have (#402 is where it starts). While I wish that individual had just never shown up here, I do think that his comment should stand as a testament to awfulness.
------------------------------------------------
Caine: I can't imagine how awful your experience was. I want to offer you something, but I don't know what the right word would be. Sympathy sounds too trite. I suppose I will thank you, though, for having the courage to speak out about it - I know you've spoken about it before, and I know you're the toughest of tough cookies, but damn, it's still brave of you.
Yep gotta agree, this guy doesn't understand how devestating rape can be. Yes one does "get over it" after a fashion, but not with out lots of help and in most cases lots of love.
@Iris #91
Thank you very much for your supportive words. It's a funny old thing. I've educated myself so much on this stuff in the intervening years but never spoken about mine. So I have this sort of clinically logical grip on what went down and what continues to go down in the wider picture, but the longer it goes and the more I know, the more my own experience seems to be lurking illogically in the fabric of my mind and the more disturbing and obstructive it becomes in my own life.
Anyway, thank you, really :)
I'll stop derailing now.
*barf*
It's been some time since I last suggested fucking someone sideways with a rusty sharp implement, but this is clearly a case that calls for it.
I have to admit, though, I would take rape over crucifixion. Or indeed over any other form of protracted and painful death. That's unless it was a jebus style crucifiction (note spelling difference) - of unusually short duration, and ending with a magical recovery.
Mr. Fire, that 'bravery' took a long, long time to get to, but once I got there, I decided I'd be damned if I'd shut my mouth about it, especially when contemptible, mealy-mouthed assclowns parade their evil around as piety.
Thank you for your words, they help. They keep the bravery in the mouthing off.
Sam, you aren't derailing anything. Quite a few of us have discussed our personal experiences being raped.
Sam, I just read your comment, and I would like to thank you for your bravery, too, in making it.
I have little constructive advice other than to echo Caine and say you are welcome to talk about it here as much as you need to. I wish you the very best.
You guys should meet Roissy.
Cuckoldry Vs Butt Rape.
OK, I'm convinced from the comments, for all practical purposes and in almost all situations, divorce will never be on par with rape.
But it's easy to ignore the details of the suffering that might or might not be involved...
And I'll admit, it's somewhat amusing to be called a troll when I'm probably more of a pro-science, liberal, militant atheist than most of you retards.
"Unfortunately, stranger rape isn't rare"
Nowhere near "rare" enough... it's only relatively rare, compared to acquaintance rape... sorry if I didn't word that comment well.
Yes you are.
Correct. It will never be the same because human suffering is real.
What is it with christards and their hatred for women? Doesn't this asshole have a mother or a sister? Or does he hate them as much as he hates other women?
Thinking about it more, he probably loves his mother and sisters. They've pristine women who would never be raped, always give their husbands all the sex that was demanded, and are still virgins. At least that's how he sees them.
Sending cautious *hugs* to **sam**, Caine, deriamis, and the others who haven't mentioned thier personal experiences. If you wanna castrate the fucker, I'll help hold him down.
Haha! Jenn is Roissy?
Hahahahh. Hahahahha.
Oh this is too rich.
Someone on my personal blog linked to this particularly rank piece of misogynist shit as a prime example of what a "Pick Up Artist" looks like.
And this d00d is dumb enough to be proud of his blog, that's the worst part. And link to it here!
Oh man, this thread is going to get fun after y'all start reading through his blog.
Jenn:
Trust me, asshole, keep up with language like that and you're sure to make tons o' friends here!
If you're such a good little liberal militant atheist, then why don't you stop and think about the shit you're spewing?
Jenn:
The fuck you are, you lowlife. You showed your true colours, not just once, but twice now. You're beneath contempt.
I will ignore the rape/abortion connection which is just religious idiocy.
I'm going after the Pharyngula article which said that this guy was "exaggerating abortion into murder".
Yet again: I am an atheist. But, yet again, I have to ask all of you: how is abortion different to snipping the head off a newborn baby? When does a zygote (which can be killed by the morning-after pill; a great invention) become a human whose pre-contemplated killing should be the source of a murder charge?
I do not know.
But I know that what 20 years ago was considered an unsavable fetus has now become a perfectly viable baby.
I ask you all to place yourselves in the room with this baby, born at 22 weeks (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-437236/Born-just-22-weeks--Am…), and - seriously - consider hacking sat it with a pair of scissors.
Go on: cut off its hand, then its, left leg, then some of its belly.
Keep going, until you've chopped the baby into bits.
Please, serious answers only.
The least I can do, though for you and other victims, sadly the only thing I know to do. We'll do what we can in this generation, but it's a long way to go, if ever, 'til mankind can get its barbarity under control.
And related to what I said before, I'll always admire you for channeling that horror into being an almighty badass :)
You are a troll and not a very competent one.
Change IDs, try again, and think real seriously about going back to Troll school.
Didn't click on the link and won't, troll links can end up with operating system failure.
Setting aside the nastiness of rape for the moment, and looking at rape as an evolutionary factor, I think we can see that generally rape and other coerced-birth strategies are probably quite rewarding to the male in question.
In our species, where a male-female pair can only bear one child a year (more or less) and the male to female ratio is roughly equal, an aggressive male can greatly multiply his offspring by coercive means -- either killing competing males or raping females. I don't know of any research on this topic, but this sounds likely.
So if we really hate rape and the milder but genetically equivalent practices of sequestering and "owning" women, then we must stop rewarding it as a reproductive strategy.
Noni
naddyfive:
You're fine. One of the problems, when it comes to public perception of stranger rape, is that many of them end up in murder. So people hear about a murder case, not a rape case.
Cath, thank you for the hug. *hugs back*
SS @#110-
So, the pregnant woman means nothing to you?
I saw a TV show once, fictional, about a hard-bitten cop who thought rape was no big deal... until it happened to him.
Two nights ago I listened to a pair of hockey players talk about the devastation and self-destructive behavior in their lives from years of sexual abuse by coach Graham James.
And then there was the fellow interviewed on the radio, real, who talked about going to rape a woman. She began to talk to him about not doing it and "She began making sense so I hit her a few times with a hammer."
I was gobsmacked when a male friend said that having his apartment robbed was like being raped. Man, you were about four layers from rape: possessions, car-jacking, clothes/wallet, personal injury, rape.
Jesus, does this ghoul need to meet someone in a dark alley.
Great, two different sites I'm reading tonight both have "rape isn't that bad; most people manage to get over it" apologists.
I counseled rape victims for 5 years in hospitals. I can't even start typing right now, because I'm afraid I'll break my keyboard.
Well, considering I am male, he would probably just think I am a terrible pansy for not beating down a man twice my size. That's fine, he can go on thinking that. Meanwhile, I count myself lucky to have freed myself from his weird superstitions and patristic notions.
@Cath: Nah, I'd rather just wait for the realization he has on his deathbed that there is no God and no afterlife right before his life winks out of existence. No need to torture him - the fact that his life is a lie is enough for me.
Hehe, thanks Raven, but uh, yeah, the link is safe.
Don't be scared!
Seriously though, it's safe. Jeez.
I promise I'm for real. I'm not trollin!
Do they really have troll school, hmm?
ODS:
Please, please, just ignore SStroll. I'm begging here.
"His argument that abortion is murder regardless isn't creepy, it's logical."
It ain't no such thing. "Abortion" is a medical term; "murder" is a legal term. Equating the two is far from "logical." Actually, trying to equate the two is dishonest in medicine, philosophy, law, and common sense.
ODS@ #115: she means everything. What percentage of abortions are conducted to save the mother's life?
**sam**,
Talking about the trauma of rape on a thread about an asshole denying the trauma of rape is, by my definition, on topic not a derail. I'm sorry that someone raped you. It's sometimes easier to speak anonymously than to people you have to see, especially because of the stigma attached to being a rape victim. That's personal experience talking. It has been a decade for me too, and time has dulled some of the edge. There's no set rules about how you should feel and when. What you feel is exactly that, what you feel. There are few things as personally brutal as rape, so it's not surprising that dealing with the effects is also intensely personalized. We're here if you need to vent or talk or whatever. Maybe you just want to rage against assholes like the guy who posted this crap, I know I do.
@CFDM #120: sorry, but this is an open forum. Your whinings about past bad-beats won't get you too far. Good, logical arguments are what's needed.
Keep trying.
Because they aren't the same thing. Most abortions are performed prior to 11 weeks of pregnancy. I know for a fact, having worked in a family health clinic, that women are told how long they have to consider an abortion (7 weeks from presumed date of conception) if they express concern about keeping the fetus.
Abortions performed at 22 weeks are the kind that is meant to save the life of the mother. That's a totally different moral and ethical calculus. Please do not attempt to equate late-term abortion to save the mother with the kind most women get. That's like putting a two-year-old's face on an anti-abortion sign.
You're right, Caine. I'm done with that jerkwad.
This is a childish and gleefully prurient false dilemma.
Ask an actual surgeon to make that call instead of artificially putting the burden on us, you idiot.
ODS, I love you. :D
@125, deriamis: I'd like to clarify my position: if the mother's life is at risk, then it takes precedence over the fetus.
But you and I know that there are thousands of babies killed each year because Drs sign them off as maternal-lethal.
Other than the genuine cases, I refer to my original post.
Good, logical arguments are what's needed.
...says the dorkwad most likely to be the first tossed out in the next round of "survivor pharyngula"
say, what happened to that, anyway?
anyone hear if PZ truly intends to have another round, or not?
deriamis:
A male friend of mine was gang raped when he was in his late teens. Rape is rape and it is a horrible, traumatic experience. You do whatever the hell you have to in order to survive.
Asinine question by an idjit, if you don't know the difference.
Never. It isn't human until the baby is born and breathing on its own. Another asinine question by an idjit.
Sorry fuckwit, you are still an asinine idjit. It isn't a baby until it is born. PERIOD, END OF STORY. Anything else is idjit sophistry, which is your specialty. Especially the idjit part.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that a 22-week birth is exceedingly rare. A fetus is considered to be viable at 25 weeks, with a possibility of 2 weeks either direction. It's actually much more probable that the baby you have referenced is two weeks older than estimated than it having been born and survived at 22 weeks gestation.
This was known even 20 years ago. The only difference between then and now is that we can save more babies born after 25 weeks gestation. Prior to that, a fetus simply does not have the lungs to breathe with and will not survive.
Oh, and it really doesn't help to compare a 22-week fetus with a "newborn baby" like you do. They are not the same thing. Cutting the head off a 22-week fetus (if you even knew what its head looked like) is not like cutting off the head of a healthy newborn, especially when both mother and fetus will die if it doesn't happen. You may be an atheist, but you are a very, very confused person when it comes to human reproduction.
**sam**'s comments are perfectly appropriate for the discussion. For an example of thread-derailment, see SlantedScience's comments.
I cannot formulate a proper response to ugliness such as this. I add my voice to the chorus of disgust and disbelief that any person intelligent enough to put two words together can think thoughts as reprehensible as these. Rape is a horrible, horrible crime. A violation. The scars may not always be visible, but they are there. Even a privileged male such as myself, who has never been through such a thing, can see it as the atrocity that it is. I only hope that one day this fool will see the light and realize what nonsense he has espoused, and regret saying such terrible things.
Ichthyic:
PZ said he could be talked into housecleaning, but most people were against another round of survivor several endless thread incarnations back. Not enough steady, quality type trolls. I'd be happy for SS the idiot the tossed though.
Caine (in response to/support of deriamis),
QFT
PAY ATTENTION!!! Caine is right. SStroll is trying to derail the thread again with his nutcase lies and control freak behavior.
Don't feed the troll.
@Mr Fire, #127.
You said: "Ask an actual surgeon to make that call instead of artificially putting the burden on us, you idiot."
How ludicrous.
It's "artificial" to ask whether you have the moral balls to do what you ask others to do?
It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to clean public toilets if noone else would?
It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to kill a cow if noone else would?
It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to cut a baby into pieces if noone else would?
I hope that if he's pissed in the gene pool that his kids get away from him pronto. Assuming that this is a guy, I don't think he should be trusted with a penis, and I'm having to wonder if my opposition to prison rape might not have to make an exception.
The only thing I agree with him on is that rape is theft. It's theft of bodily integrity, theft of the opportunity for trauma-free sexual relationships, theft of the ability to experience pleasure without feeling violated or dirty, theft of the ability to feel safe in one's home, car, workplace, skin. Some studies have found that it has even has educational and economic consequences for survivors, so rape can even be seen as a theft of one's future earnings and education. It's also theft from one's present or future intimate partners and children. Even apart from the cortisol disregulation mentioned above, PTSD makes attachment to and physical closeness with one's children more problematic and often leads to shame, guilt, and anger in one's intimate partner for wanting to do things that provoke flashbacks.
For everyone who's posted about their experiences, I hope you're getting help - there's a lot out there. It's been a long hard slog, but I actually I love my life now. Despite (or because of) not being a theist, I no longer play the intellectual games of asking how my life would have been different or what I should do to eradicate these experiences from my psyche.
Wouldn't it be great if there was a compassionate Jesus to appear and thunk this guy over the head at some point?
from the comments linked to by "jenn":
I would expect that cuckholded men murdered the cheating cunt. I would.
terrorizing mysogyny fest, anyone?
I'd be unsurprised to find that this person is quite young - a 15yo with little idea of how the world actually works, so he tries to reason from principle. I'd also guess that he's never been seriously assaulted or made someone's victim.
Cut the kid a break, I say, and gently explain to him that his ideas are deficient and wrong.
Awwww, fuck. I was hoping to get to bed at a reasonable hour tonight and have a more productive day tomorrow. Now we've got a thread-hijack by a pro-forced-birth troll. This is gonna keep me up all night! *grabs popcorn*
Describing your asinine questions and inane opinion I see.
I'd like to clarify my position
nobody cares.
My way was to gain control of him psychologically. It's just not "manly" to a lot of straight men not to attempt to beat a guy down, though, even if you would likely be seriously hurt or killed in the process. Whatever damage rape might have done to my life, at least I am alive to experience it.
It's not so much that someone might think divorce is worse than rape. I can accept that someone might think divorce is worse than rape, however much I might disagree with it. What gets me here is that some asshole who has very likely experienced neither thinks he has something to say about it.
This is for Raven and Caine.
Youz Trollin!
Naddyfive,
My thoughts exactly. I am not Roissy btw, I promise.
OurDeadSelves,
I merely jest. Of course, I don't think YOU are a retard. =)
You can handle that kinda shit right? I mean, it is the internet... and even so, you've never been called retarded? For an atheist, perhaps you need tougher skin... but since you feel slighted, I apologize for calling you a retard.
Then shortly thereafter:
Riiiight. Let's see if I have this clearly: first you demand evidence but then you make an evidence-free assertion which would invalidate the evidence you at first demanded? The circular logic is making me a bit dizzy. Could you spin the other way around next time?
Christopher Hitchens is anti-abortion but he's also pro-choice! That is he thinks women should be allowed to make their own mind up about it. I don't care what people think about abortion, I care what they try to pass laws about limiting other people's freedom to do what they want.
Really everyone is anti-abortion, no-one thinks it's a good thing, but just a lesser evil. Contraception is obviously preferable where possible but if you need an abortion then you should have a safe one.
The "The only moral abortion is my abortion" link was very interesting. Amazing the congnitive dissonance people can endure!
Assuming that this is a guy
that's a good point.
sad to contemplate, but not impossible.
On the original post itself, cause I wanted to point out something specific:
Of course anti-choicers minimize rape. Being anti-choice, by definition, means one does not value a woman's bodily autonomy, consent, and humanity.
And what is rape, but a crime against a woman's bodily autonomy, consent, and humanity?
They go together like peas in a pod and it is of absolutely no surprise to anyone that those who are most fervently against rape also tend to be the most militant pro-choicers and those who are the most militantly anti-choice end up being those quick to pull out the rape apologetics.
I mean, does anyone else remember the one state senator who in arguing for one of those nutty "personhood" laws and against a rape exception that he only considered a rape a rape was when it was a stranger rape on a christian virgin?
In short, it just isn't surprising to me that an anti-choicer would turn out to be a rape apologist. It's like saying that water is wet. The personality fits together, because of the very anti-woman nature of an anti-choicer and their arguments.
And it is worth keeping that in mind every time you argue with one.
On that note, why hello anti-choice troll.
paulmurray:
No.
Cut the kid a break, I say, and gently explain to him that his ideas are deficient and wrong.
suggest you go to the site and read the interaction from the beginning.
it ain't no kid.
@deriamis, #133: you don't see my point, which is probably my fault.
I support the morning after pill because it kills imaginary babies at the few-cell stages.
I abhor elective abortions at 22 weeks and later because they kill real babies which could survive ex utero.
If in the future we develop the tech to take a zygote through to "birth" in vitro, I will still be in favor of the morning-after pill. I don't believe in souls or similar, so I think that it's okay to kill something with just a few cells, none of which have yet differentiated into neurons.
If you lie about that, what else will you lie about. They aren't babies.
Janet Holmes,
I think availability of abortion is a good thing, and I don't think the procedure itself is bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting an abortion for any reason up to and including "I just don't like the way condoms feel." Fetuses are not people. Even if we had the technology to remove the fetus from the woman and grow it in an incubator, all without hurting the woman at all, I would still support abortion access because not all women want to have their biological child out there being raised by others even if they don't want to raise a child themselves. Again, fetuses aren't people. I have more ethical qualms about eating a steak than I do about abortion.
@155: why not?
deriamis:
Right. That's a tactic you have to be able to take advantage of if you think it will work. I ended up doing things during my rape I considered to be debasing (and continued to think that way for a long time) because I felt very strongly those things would help me get out of the situation still breathing.
It took me a long time to learn and believe that it does take strength of character and intelligence to keep a grip on yourself while you're being dragged into your own private horror show and doing what you have to do. You're to be commended, Deriamis. You got out of it, you're still here and breathing. You're alive.
you don't see my point, which is probably my fault
no, we see you have an illegitimate, irrational point.
not the same thing.
and yes, it IS your fault, but I'm sure you don't need to point that out to us.
when are you leaving again?
And adding to the personal stories on rape, I mentioned on an earlier thread how my partner was raped twice by two separate romantic partners.
It has taken almost 5 fucking years to just begin clearing up some of the automatic physical responses, intense psychosexual hangups, and general anxiety of those events enough that she was only recently able to have a penetrative sex act with a penis. Completely free? I have no idea when if ever that might be and this is someone luckier than most and who is remarkably healed from the event thanks to some intense loving support by me for a number of years, multiple stints in therapy, and some phenomenal work by her current boyfriend for the last year.
Hell, I was most minor of the minor assaulted (J-train style public groping) about 2 years ago and I still involuntarily flinch a little when someone's thigh touches me on the bus.
The removal of agency, of humanity, and autonomy that comes with rape carries some of the most potent scars there are. It is no surprise that someone who has likely perpetrated these acts and certainly seeks to perpetrate similar acts through the power of the state would seek to minimize them, but that's only because he has lost his humanity due to his intense hatred of women.
"And I'll admit, it's somewhat amusing to be called a troll when I'm probably more of a pro-science, liberal, militant atheist than most of you retards."
Try us.
Raven #138, I hear you. Shame, because such questions are worthy of philosophical contemplation when posed with clarity and positive motivation.
Pygmy Loris:
I feel the same way.
I have no surgeon's license, no training, no exposure to the extremely morally messy world of medicine. This is the prior experience required before peforming your thought experiment. Without it, you are an idiot making a false equivalence between me and a surgeon.
The fact that I and many other commenters do not meet these conditions is your fault, not ours.
As with the first answer.
Even your attempts at rhetoric are laughable and pitiful.
That's not to say I don't also support contraceptive education and distribution. I certainly do, but for me, it's about minimizing the risks women suffer for merely being sexually active, including the relatively small risks (vs. pregnancy and childbirth) related to abortion.
Then why did you bring up the 22-week fetus? It was a blatant attempt at an appeal to emotion. The problem is that you attempted to equate late-term abortion with early-term abortion. At 11 weeks, the fetus could not possibly survive outside the body and has more of a chance of being aborted by sheer chance than a doctor's hands, especially if the woman is of low socioeconomic status.
Beside which, if you are going to assert that abortion in cases that do not save the life of the mother is wrong, you also have to evaluate the cost to the family, the child, and society as a whole if the child is born. As I posted earlier, many families cannot afford to support a child, regardless of whether the mother was raped. If abortion is always wrong, then what happens when the child is raised in a family that struggles to get by or if it is put up for adoption? You seem to suggest that quality of life is not as important as life itself, contrary to the phenomenon of suicide.
Probably not. My picture is some old loser xian fossil.
The comparison between rape and divorce is nonsensical and irrelevant. Because one can be painful occasionally doesn't excuse in the least the other. They have zero to do with each other.
But the fact that he makes it could be telling. My guess is that this creep's slave and playtoy got up one day and walked out. Being married to a xian crazy misogynist must be a lot like hell. A divorce from such must be like a gift from the gods. In a democracy, the vagina with legs can always leave, in theory at least.* A lot of xians hate that and hate democracy.
The risk is being murdered which happens sometimes. One woman I knew lived somewhere in boondocks Montana for a long time. One day, to escape her psycho husband, she put the kids in a car and fled. Drove as far as she could. Ran out of gas in the middle of Montana and that was where she ended up living.
Slanted Science's name is 50% accurate
As anybody with real science training and understanding would tell you. If it's in utero, it's a fetus. If it's ex utero, it's a baby. Simple concept. You are too dumb to see the difference. We aren't. You aren't as smart as you think you are. We know that.
OMG, you mean this is that internet thing all of my friends are talking about? I had no clue! I thought I was sitting in front of a typewriter!
You can insult me all that you like, fucker, especially when it makes you look like an idiot. Do me a favor and actually read (for comprehension, now!) my original response to you, then explain to me why you think 1) I'm not smart enough to know when I'm being insulted and 2) I'm a newbie who's feelings are just so fragile.
Oh yes, the barely literate trolls are my favorite trolls. I'm guessing you didn't do so well in them readin' and book larnin' classes, didja?
@163: wow.
I can't argue with someone who would rather kill a cow than a human.
*stunned*
I am going to bed now, and can't see comments beyond #163 for now.
I really hope that atheists don't show ourselves up as amoral dickwipes like #163.
Please register your disgust at #163's comments below...
PZ, can we please invoke the banhammer for SlantedScience? Should we start an internet petition?
@SlantedScience/SStroll
I ask you to consider the fact that fetuses do not have souls. An aborted fetus does not have any sort of experience of life and will not recall its 'suffering' (fetuses cannot feel pain, anyways, so I fail to see your point). The only reason that it is wrong to kill a newborn baby is because it is wanted. And birth is a great place to draw a line legally.
Just because someone would not be willing to do something themself does not mean that they should be denied the right to partake in the benefits of such actions. Would you be willing to menstruate and have a uterus implanted in your body so that you could conceive and carry a child? No? Then no kids for you. What about teaching? You don't wanna do that either? Then forget you ever got any schooling.
I mean, your education can't have been that great anyways considering your crappy argument.
Mattir:
SStroll has committed a bannable offense. Yet. If the moron keeps derailing threads, maybe.
Would everyone stop giving idiotSStroll what it wants, which is attention? Please.
I can't argue with someone who would rather kill a cow than a human.
strawman.
take your strawman and stuff it, goon.
seriously, GTFO
A fetus is not a baby very much the way a toddler is not a teenager. Simply because a toddler will *probably* grow into a teenager eventually, we don't call xyr a pre-developed teenager, and we don't treat xyr like a teenager, either. We call the child a toddler and treat xyr as such.
If a fetus is entitled to the same protections as a newborn baby (which it isn't, but that argument is elsewhere), then it is entitled as the fetus it is now, not the baby it could later become. Why, then, do we insist on talking about fetuses as "unborn babies" or "pre-born children"? No one else is labelled by their potential. I have a better chance of becoming a 70-year-old woman someday than the average embryo has of becoming a healthy newborn, but nobody calls me a "pre-aged senior citizen." Only the fetus gets the linguistic special treatment of being labelled by what it could later become. At all other stages of life, we are what we are now.
Dammit, that should be hasn't.
Sorry, she is right, unlike you. The only disgust will be registered for your simplistic and inane arguments, and your trolling just to get a rise out of us. You deserve all the crap you receive, since you don't appear to be very educated or cogent. Certainly not cogent enough to STFU when you get in over your head. A banhammer for insipidity would not be out of line.
1) A fetus is not considered "viable" until 24 weeks, so your objection is not accurate.
2) Even if there were loads of abortions at 22 weeks and later (there are not), a comparison between that fetus and a living, breathing baby cannot be made. They aren't the same thing. If they were, then doctors would make the choice to "birth" the baby by surgical means, in the same manner as a Caesarian section.
3) The reason a late-term fetus is aborted is because it is both a) not yet viable and b) is a danger to the mother. This is the standard and it is followed by virtually every obstetrician in medicine that has any reputation to defend. Mothers are counseled to have abortions early-term because doctors will not perform late-term abortions without medical necessity.
Your arguments fail for the above three reasons. (I am discounting the obvious appeals to emotion and false equivalencies.) Defeat them all and you win. Provide evidence to back up your claims, please.
What a god damn tragedy that illiberal laws that are there to keep women as baby ovens are circumvented by lying doctors.
You wanna know the difference between killing a newborn? In as few words as possible:
The newborn is no longer hijacking the woman's body and health, and now that it's already delivered, is unlikely (I'm relatively s ure) to cause further complications.
It's our bodies. Not yours. If you want to put the baby into neonatal of some sort, knock yourself the fuck out, but remember that if you have no intention of raising the child, he's going to the fucked up adoption system in the US, and woe betide him if he's not male, blonde, or white.
I would agree. But it is too late for this thread. The troll feeders are here and SStroll is a codependent.
It isn't about rape and crazy xian misogynists, just another forced birther abortion rant and rave.
Maybe the Endless Thread for those who want to keep the original discussion going and I'm out of here. I'm shocked at what some women and a few men have gone through but not surprised. We've all heard it and seen it before.
My feelings of hopelessness seem to grow each day (perhaps I shouldn't visit sites like this one or consume any media whatsoever). It's unlikely that the person who made those creepy remarks is going to change. I hope that compassionate, empathetic, rational thinkers outnumber the likes of him, but do we?
I don't want to fall victim to divide and conquer, but it can be difficult for me to envision uniting with the moderate-liberal, compassionate religious folks. I see them as enablers who give [insert any "holy book"] and religious doctrine undue legitimacy. On the other hand, what choice do compassionate atheists have?
My first thought after reading the OP (after I'd recovered from the gibbering incoherence it inflicted upon me) was that I would love to have this jackass say something like that to my face. I would almost reflexively give him a good, swift kick in the 'nads, the tell him to suck it up: it's not nearly as bad as what his Jebus endured, after all. I might even have to come back every day for the next nine months and kick him again. Wishful thinking, I suppose.
To all the ladies here, and everywhere, who have had to endure the horrors and agonies of rape and abuse, of any kind, please let me extend my deepest sympathies, and my respect and admiration for the courage and strength you have shown in overcoming these trials. There is absolutely no justification for what has been done to you, and what is still being done around the world. It's enough to make me ashamed to be a man, just because I have the same plumbing as these monsters.
SS is a vicious troll, but yes, I can do many things if no one else is available to do them. I've killed and butchered animals for food. I've cleaned public toilets. Given that I've done these things, I'm willing to say that if there were no one available to perform abortions, I'd be willing to obtain the training to do them. Part of being a grownup is realizing that life can be unpleasant and it's not fair to ask other people to do all the unpleasant bits.
So SS, are you cleaning pubic toilets and butchering animals on a regular basis?
Caine:
It's fine by me if a troll wants attention. The only way to fix stupidity is by bringing it out into the open and beating it with a very large stick. As far as I am concerned a troll can continue to troll and I will nicely ask that person to back up arguments I know they can't and therefore make everyone watching laugh. If you are in any way embarrassed by stupidity, I invite you to avert your eyes right about now.
Garrett:
I think we do. There's a great deal of social pressure these days against such views (expressed in the post by the "christian" person.) There are people who do think that way, unfortunately, but it is getting less acceptable all the time. We have to keep our voices loud and make sure we're heard.
Many moderate christians do enable this type of thinking. It's important to make this point when you can, a thoughtful person will give it due consideration. I don't think we do have to join up with religious people. It's easier if you think in terms of individuals, rather than great groups of people. Talk, be active, plant seeds of thought where and when you can.
This makes me cry. I should be used to hearing this kind of thing. It was the same argument my family used to justify what my father did to me, the fact that he shared me and my first boyfriend did the same thing. It still hurts though. I don't even know what to say. They clearly don't know the true effect of rape. To them, my life long depression and suicide attempts is just me being weak unlike Jesus. Jesus can kiss my ass, I prefer not to be like him. Fuck this asshole and everyone that supports or defends his bullshit. I hope he isn't married. I wouldn't be surprised if he rapes his wife, if he is.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in many locations (including some states) aren't late term abortions (i.e. after the 24 week limit SS has given) banned except in the very cases he allows for? I feel lucky in that Canada has no restrictions, but it is one of the very rare few in that case.
As for the possibility that rape is less painful than divorce: I can't speak to how painful divorce is but I know two sisters, one of whom was raped by a man and the other who went through a very painful divorce from him (including custody battles, living literally in fear of him for years and him raping their daughters). Judging by that, rape is still far more painful in terms of long-term effects.
From my own experience, date-rape is worse than anything else I've experienced in a relationship. I'm in a relatively healthy relationship now, but I still sometimes start to panic even though I know that my current boyfriend wouldn't even think about having sex with me without me being all for it.
Humorously enough, considering the bile of the cretin the thread was originally written about and as adeptly summarized by Caine in 83, the standard trope that it was my fault for "being out at night by myself and not under the watchful eye of a "good, christian man"." wouldn't even fit, as I was raped by the epitome of a good Catholic man (at least by standard definition of the Church).
It really hurts to hear guys say this, and I've heard it a lot. Assuming you don't hurt people with your plumbing, you have nothing to apologize for. It's like saying "I feel ashamed to have a spleen just like these monsters."
Just use the plumbing for good, young Jedi.
deriamis:
I'm not embarrassed, I'm annoyed. IdiotSStroll has used the same exact "arguments" to derail at least four threads now. This was a good thread. If people want to argue with the idiot, here's a suggestion: SStroll has a blog with no commenters. He can move his stupid "arguments" there and we don't have the same old derail.
At any rate, Raven was probably right and it's too fucking late for this thread.
Thorne:
Don't ever think or feel that, Thorne. Any human being capable of empathy abhors the idea of rape. You're not a monster by any means, least of all by having certain equipment.
Women are also capable of rape and molestation, I don't consider myself on par with them because we're all walking around with vaginas.
Well, sure, because in the case of divorce, a woman is losing an entire man, and but in the case in rape, the man is giving some of his precious sperm (every sperm is holy, praise God!) to a woman. Makes sense in a sick, psychopathic Christian way.
Samantha:
Those good Catholic men are damn near in a league by themselves when it comes to rape. I'm so sorry you experienced that - it just adds another layer to the nastiness.
Now that the trolls have hopefully gone to bed for the night, let's get back to the topic at hand.
**sam**, Caine, and deriamis, I greatly admire your bravery to share your stories. They are really important.
Caine,
I appreciate the reply. I think you're right that overt evil and bigotry is becoming less acceptable, though I can't help but wonder if progress has been slowed. I also wonder if astonishingly great ignorance is on the rise (partly because our public education system is so very, very poor and partly because the corporate media doesn't have a vested interest in promoting critical, rational thought). Look no further than the Tea Parties and the way in which the corporate media exaggerates their numbers/influence.
The more covert, institutionalized forms of bigotry are awfully dangerous.
While I do agree we can plant seeds along the way, I don't think significant progress will happen anytime soon unless we march in large numbers. Massive numbers of people must force the issue. That means joining forces with religious folks.
@ Caine
I wasn't sure if SS had committed a bannable offense, I was just proposing that we launch a planet-wide internet petition to encourage PZ to bring down the banhammer. Hasn't that worked recently to resolve other disputes? (Just a note of levity on such an ugly thread.)
Even where there is no specific restriction, doctors don't perform the procedure because it's a question of medical ethics. What people don't generally know is that late-term abortions are watched very carefully by the medical community. "Moral turpitude" is one reason a doctor can have his or her license pulled, and performing late-term abortions without medical necessity is a particularly easy way to make it happen. The restrictive laws are actually not necessary - they are more a symptom of over-government by the perpetually morally outraged than anything else.
I understand that. I've derailed a few threads myself around here and I completely understand why people get annoyed with it. I would much rather talk about the original post, too. But wherever there is the possibility that I can help to correct ignorance, however slight it might be, it would not be right to just walk away from it. And it's not like our dear friend here will just go away of his/her own choosing, right?
Can't spell ("comendable" in another thread), can't proof read either. But, I believe I still can be sassy, and that's what's really important, no?
But wherever there is the possibility that I can help to correct ignorance, however slight it might be, it would not be right to just walk away from it.
SIWOTI
I'm the author of the blog that PZ's message pointed to. I just wanted to thank everyone for the comments. After hearing from this guy a couple of times, I couldn't work up the will to respond any more -- I was just too disgusted. It's nice to see I'm not the only one.
I was torn about whether or not to post his message in the first place. On one hand, it's an excellent example of exactly what some of us are fighting against. On the other hand, it made me want to vomit (and had to be even more painful for those of you who had reason to take the remarks more personally).
On topic - words fail me... the palpable, jaw dropping Evil that comes from this Zombie-cult - how otherwise decent people continue to be fooled into ovine acquiescence of its myriad monstrosities I'll never understand.
To those who have shared their terrible experiences all I can say is my heart goes out to you. I consider myself fortunate never to have undergone such trauma, and I sincerely hope none of my nearest and dearest ever does.
Off topic - I think Caine is right - This thread has a point, and Slanty Troll (who doesn't) is attempting to derail it. Troll starvation seems the best strategy to me.
Garrett:
Yeah, I wonder about that myself. I think there's been a backlash because America is beginning to lose its religion, I'm hoping that backlash is short-lived. It was pointed out to me recently that many religious countries, who happen to be way ahead of us on human rights, such as gay marriage, started to lose their religion about 30 years ago, while America is just now starting that process. It's an upheaval, and things are going to be rocky for a while.
No argument there and it is a problem here.
This I'm just not sanguine about. I don't think we do need to join with religious folks. I think we just need our own mob, so to speak.
It's enough to make me ashamed to be a man, just because I have the same plumbing as these monsters.
I had the same thoughts, when I was a bit younger.
I recall thinking that very thing the first time I heard this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egMksuKPn7g
Why are people surprised? If you only read the bible, these evil twits believe that the only reason that rape is bad is because your damaging the fathers property.
"Pro-life" = misogyny = so very anti-life
Such as it is. People like the original poster make me unusually emotional because I have never understood the desire to blame the victim. Sure, Jesus suffered on the cross, but he also knew (supposedly) for a fact that there was an afterlife and he would be resurrected. (Actually, even when I was a Christian, I never fell into that school of thought.) How does that in any way compare to someone being violated and thinking they may not survive the night? I just don't get it.
Jesse the Body has offered in the past to waterboard idiots. Maybe we should find out how long it would take this guy to deny all his Christian principles. But no, while he finds it perfectly acceptable to get off on other people's pain, we damned godless liberals are morally bound to respect his, well, what he would call god given rights, even as he would seek to deny them to others.
deriamis:
No, that would be too much to wish for. There's no particular need to encourage it, either.
iDeclare:
Thanks for stopping by. While I can't quite express my feelings over the message, I'm glad you posted it. It's just as well to know there are people who actually think this way.
Are there any doctors on this website who could remove this fuckwit's head from his arse?
Obviously, doesn't know his Holey Babble either. JC was supposed to be god and could have hopped of the cross any time he felt like it. He only 'died' to make up for Adam and Eve doing a bit of scrumping, as RD puts it.
At my knitting group tonight, we were discussing the Maryland high school banning the non-religious student grou. One woman (a Christian) stated, without prompting, that it was outrageous and that the most ethical people she'd ever met were atheists. So in order to maintain the tribe's standards, I guess I can't call for amputation or rape of the original poster. (Rats.)
I took my aggression out on my lawn and I feel a little bit better.
This reminds me of when I told a female friend about my rape (I was a child when I was raped) and she looked at me and said that I should have known better. I was 7, the new kid in the neighborhood, playing with all the other kids at a neighbors house. The father said "hey, let's play hide and seek!" We all started to run and hide and he took my hand and pulled me into the garage and locked the door behind him. He beat me, he burned me and he raped me. How was that my fault? How will I really ever get over that? I go to therapy and I've made so much progress, but reading that... I just can't explain how it makes me feel.
As a side note, I've been a long time reader but never commented before. It kinda sucks that this is my introduction into active participation on PZ's blog.
Amber,
There is nothing you could have done, nor is there anything you should have done. No one is ever at fault for being raped, least of all a child. I hope this is an ex-friend.
Oh yeah, ex-friend for sure. That was the incident that cemented it.
Amber:
I get it. You won't get over it, you will get through it. Rape is a life changing experience. Keep doing what your doing, the therapy, talking if you want to, leaning on people for support if you need. When some idiot tells you it's your fault, tell them to fuck the hell off, they have no idea of what they are talking about and give it to them full blast. You'll feel better. I did.
It doesn't need to suck. Glad you're here. C'mon over to the endless thread, where we talk about anything and everything. Even nothing.
I told a female friend about my rape (I was a child when I was raped) and she looked at me and said that I should have known better.
ignore the words. My first reaction would be to assume displacement behavior on your friend's part; a defensive reaction.
OTOH, if she insists on that as a logical position, she isn't, and isn't capable of being, your friend, and she needs some counseling herself to deal with her lack of empathy.
Amber - either hugs or compassionate non-touches, whichever would be more comforting, both for the rape and for the bad fortune to run into such an assclown. There is a fantastic community of people on Pharyngula, especially on the Endless Thread, so jump in.
@Ichthyic: Yes, I suffer from SIWOTI Syndrome. I admitted as such quite some time ago.
Caine:
I would hardly say that methodically taking apart an attempted argument and demonstrating its inanity is the same as encouraging a troll, but I do see your point. Like I said, I would much rather discuss the original post.
@iDeclare: Thank you for pointing this out to us, and thank you for concern for those who have been raped. In my particular case, I can't say that I feel ashamed about it because I was able to take control of the situation and get out of it. I feel heartbroken for all the men and women who were in a much worse situation, some of which ended with their lives being taken. I honestly think that it's because of idiots like the one you pointed out to us who attempt to minimize the victim's suffering that we haven't managed to make rape more rare than it is.
Amber, I hope you keep commenting. I'm sorry that had your horrible experience dismissed by your friend like that. Rape apologism knows no bounds.
Although I don't really feel qualified to represent the posters of pharyngula, welcome to the community.
deriamis:
There's no comparison whatsoever. Jesus didn't die, he took a 3 day nap. If you or I had been murdered during or after our rapes, we wouldn't get a nice, 3 day nap. *Poof* we'd be gone, dead for real. And I don't know about you, but I sure as hell felt tortured during my rape. So, Jesus ain't got anything on us, we had a hell of a lot more at stake.
I don't have the stomach to click on that link in the OP, but anyone who has must surely have seen a zillion good Christians come out of lurkerdom and beat the asswad to a pulp, right?
Right?
Do I hear crickets?
*boggles*
Should have known better than WHAT, exactly? Should have known better than to go to a neighbor's house to play with the other kids? Should have known better than to run and hide just like all the other kids when someone starts a game of hide-and-seek? Or did your friend (and I use the term loosely) simply think you shouldn't have "let" a grown man pull your little 7-year-old self into the garage?
Shit, how people do suck. I'm sorry you had to go through that. The rape/torture AND the epically insensitive belittling.
ronsullivan:
Yes.
Actually, I didn't feel tortured, but that was because I was psychologically prepared for the bad shit that people do to each other. I was "lucky" that I was emotionally tortured as a kid and learned how to manipulate others into leaving me alone. The only lasting scars I have are my decreased sexual drive and my lack of faith in supposedly "good" people. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if I hadn't had the previous emotional scars.
The whole Jesus thing...yeah, I never really believed it, even as a Christian. I had a pastor one time try to explain that Jesus really didn't know that he would be resurrected because he didn't know he was the Son of God. Either way, the fact that Jesus was resurrected makes his suffering a very low price paid for what was supposed to be the Original Sin.
Jenn - Quick, run upstairs! Check out the fun visit your mom is having with uncle Brownian.
Yes, Christian women are stronger. They're so tough, they will suffer in silence while those uppity feminists are out expressing outrage and demanding justice. You go, girl! And by "go," I mean stay... in the kitchen... barefoot and pregnant.
Ordinarily, I'm strongly opposed to vigilantism and torture, but for people like this I'd consider making an exception.
Especially one involving paper cuts to the inner thighs and vinegar.
Such a disgusting individual doesn't even deserve to be called a chordate, much less a human.
I have to just give my two cents...
As bad as the original fuckwit is...I can't help but also be disgusted by Slanted Science. SS in bringing up the whole abortion bs (btw, as a new graduate If I decide to go through med school I would do an abortion as much as a cyst removal or cosmetic surgery.) is belittling rape. I mean he sees these real confessions and real pain people go through and what does he do "Yeah yeah yeah, that's all so sad...but what about these fetuses?" I mean, what does it say that in this topic on rape and all he draws the line right to the idea of forced breeding.
I just wanted to thank all the posters who told their stories, men and women, victims and supporters. It's disheartening to know so many people who've suffered, but something about the honesty also feels cleansing.
I'm posting under my real name, so I have a hard time being fully open about my own experiences, suffice to say it was many times over many years when I was a teen.
To call it theft is to miss the fact that what was stolen can never be replaced and what was broken can't ever be fixed.
So, I guess I just want to say thanks for sharing, it means a lot to me and probably a lot to other people who are reading but not comfortable posting.
And trolls, yes, I absolutely would personally perform as many abortions as I was able, because the health of the mother includes her mental health and until you've had your body taken away from you unwillingly to serve someone else, you can shut the fuck up.
ashleyfmiller:
Damn straight. Thank you for sharing too, Ashley. We deserve a voice and that voice should be strong.
More like taken, thrown on the ground, and stomped into itty-bitty bits while you were forced to watch. I didn't have very much of my innocence left by the time I was raped, so I was spared at least that. Instead, I get to remember other things people do to each other to make themselves feel powerful.
Caine, Fleur de Mal wrote:
Exactly. That's why it's important to point out to Christians that what their so-called messiah allegedly did does not count as a sacrifice unless the meaning of the word is changed to mean 'temporary imposition preceding a few weeks of flitting around followed by eternity ruling in Heaven'.
Actually SS does bring something to the discussion. He's another misogynist who hates women but a much more common type than the...words fail me in trying to describe him...character in PZ's post.
I won't apologize to the women on this board because I haven't done anything that needs an apology. I will say that many, hopefully most, man aren't like SS and that character.
Damn it, that should be "men" in #231.
I apologize for my stupidity.
Of course, the jerk who wrote this rant about what women should do and feel... is a man, I suppose?
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I have to quote this first.
I wonder if his wife agrees. I know my preacher ex-husband would. He was wrong.
They endure great suffering, sure. Even more than the non-Christian women do, because of that all pervading guilt resulting from being a "daughter of Eve". For the rest of their life as a Christian, they will be asking themselves what they did (or didn't do) to tempt the man so. And what God is trying to teach them through this.
I am sitting here, unable to find words to express my disgust and anger. I'm remembering how, as a good Christian wife, trying to forgive, trying to submit with a whole heart, trying to do my full duty as a wife, I used to kiss my husband goodbye in the morning, saying, "Have a good day," and adding mentally, "... and I hope a train runs over you." And then praying for forgiveness all day for that evil thought.
These days, of course, I'm not afraid to think and feel, so my wishes would not be quite so nicey-nice.
Sometimes I wish there really were a hell. And demons with red-hot, spiky tails. Long ones.
Oh, and this:
is a really stupid argument.
Of course, being betrayed, humiliated, beaten and crucified hurts quite a lot. Is this an infinite amount of suffering? Certainly not (it couldn't be). You can suffer more, much more than this. People who were routinely tortured and slowly killed through hard work and starvation in death camps suffered much more than this. And if crucifixion was a common way of executing people in Roman times, then many, many people suffered just as much.
It has been a tough slog getting through all of this. I really do not much to add to the discussion, most of the sensible and empathetic commenters have said what I would like to say. And I am sure that most of the regulars have some idea what I think about this. But I really want to slap this christian silly for suggesting that divorce is worse than rape.
While I have been lucky enough not to have been raped and seeing I am not likely to get married and therefore, divorced; I can see what it has been like for one woman close to me, my mother. When my mother got her divorce, it was the best thing she could have done for herself and her children. While life as a single mother was rough (And being the eldest child, I had a lot of responsibilities.), it was better than having my father around. While my mother will not talk about, I am sure that she was raped repeated after the divorce. (Sorry, I do not want to go into details, all I will say is the man I think who did it took great delight in torturing everyone around him. He is my epitome of evil.) My mother was much more damaged by that man than from divorcing my father.
How dare that scumbag belittle the hardship my mother went through. And how dare this scumbag belittle the experiences of women everywhere. Caine, I so very much join you in the desire to cause great harm. As you fully know, this is despite the fact that we know it is wrong.
For all of the lurkers who have told their stories of surviving rape, thank you for your bravery in telling your stories. As Caine has stated earlier, I ask that you please stay as regulars. We always need people like you here. And I hope that this blog is one small shelter for all of you.
The first time I mention Caine, I meant Cath. Sorry about any confusion I have caused.
Janine:
Jesus Effin' Christ, that's terrible, Janine. The damage didn't stop with your mother, either. It affected you and your siblings too. I'm sorry. There are so many different facets to the effects rape has on people, it's very hard to believe that any idiot could possibly consider it to be less harmful than a divorce.
indeed. I fucking hate the narrative about how he supposedly came to earth to experience the worst of human suffering, to pay for our sins.
If that were true, he'd been born a woman, raped, and died in childbirth. A cross for a few hours is fucking peanuts compared to that.
If it comes from Pat (Marion Gordon) Robertson, I'm not surprised! True ChristianTM, indeed!
Thank you, Caine. But I will say that my mother, you, and others got it worse than my siblings or
I did. But I understand what you mean by the repercussions.
I have been raped, but I haven't been divorced, but if I may compare using past relationships...
It has taken me 5 years 4 counselors and a good friend, and I am only now recovering and functioning in society after being raped by someone I trusted. Compare that to previous relationships that lasted over a year - it hurt when they ended, but it only took a couple of months and no counselors to "get better".
To add a bit more to my past... It was by a boyfriend of mine and the first time it happened I was 14. It always hurt, and I was always being threatened by him. He was a twisted fuck that made me do it to show his power over me. It took 5 months, and the help of the one friend who stayed by me to leave him (even they didn't know the full extent of what happened at the time). In the years that followed, I was so scared of people, especially males. The first counselor (school counselor) said "the only problem is see is that you're upset about losing your virginity" and the next two said "sorry, I know who it is you're talking about, go find someone else" as he had tried to commit suicide a few times (attention seeking only - no serious attempts). I used to get frequent flashbacks that would leave me depressed for the next 3-4 days. Ever since I left highschool (and seeing him every day) I have been so much better. Until I discovered yesterday he is becoming a primary school teacher.
Thank you to everyone for leaving your stories, you made me brave enough to tell mine too.
JustALurker and Wanderinweeta, thank you both for sharing your experiences. I'm sorry you went through such a time and had such experiences and I'm very happy you're both out of it and strong individuals now.
Bonnie, that man should not be a primary school teacher. I support your decision to deal with your trauma in the best way for you, and given how the horrible counselors reacted I completely understand why you might not want to pursue this, but do you know if pressing charges at this point could prevent him from holding power over children?
I'm really sorry if this is offensive or horribly stupid of me. I know that rapes hardly ever result in a conviction and that if the case even goes to trial the victims are too often re-victimized. I just can't stand the thought of such a horrible person being in a position of authority over minors after what he did to you and possibly other people.
Jadehawk:
*Snort* That's the truth. Just imagine what xianity today might be like if the patriarchy had enough imagination to come up with that story.
It's sad how Christianity sneaks that insidious "blame the victim" mentality in there, isn't it? You needn't have prayed for that forgiveness (as I am sure you know by now), but being the "good Christian wife" shackled you to it.
This is what rape is: sexual power over another. I have had sexual power exerted over me by the boys and girls at school in addition to the man who raped me. I can't know what it is like to live as a woman, but I can only imagine it to be worse.
Seriously, how does our society function when your worth comes down to whether what is between your legs satisfies what is between someone else's, and whether someone can force you to do so?
Bonnie:
Holy fuck. That's appalling. I can only imagine your shock on hearing such utter bullshit. I'm glad you're recovering, feel free to jump into the endless thread with us anytime. Thank you for sharing with us and trusting us.
lol Medea
..tragically even from within. Gang raped by grown men at the age of 15. They took my virginity and for a long time afterwards I still thought it wasn't their fault. It was MINE you see for being childishly flirtatious and dancing with them ( at a friend's father's wedding).
Despite incredible family support it still sent me into a spiral of self loathing and disgust where I did everything I could to mutilate the beautiful 15 year old I was. An almost fatal eating disorder, a cycle of self harming and many wasted years of my life giving them further power by letting them remain in my head. A stupid marriage at the age 0f 20 ( to get myself "off the market" and render me some protection from men) and early divorce. Finally at the age of 27, with some awesome therapy I finally realised that enough was enough. I refuse to carry this shit around with me for the rest of my life.
..now happy with a healthy attitude towards relationships ( alright people, I KNOW I just got separated but didn't have anything to do with my past) and sex and am comfortable with my body for the first time in my life. The future is good and they didn't win. I'll never forget but the memory is "acceptably dull" to me.
On a brighter note, about 7 years ago I was in a nightclub with a a few friends and I walked past a man who decided to go the grope ( in the FRONT mind you!). I'd had a bit to drink ( so my memnory is a little "hazy") but without hesitation I punched the bastard right in the jaw and dropped him. I have NEVER hit anyone in my life and my friends tell me it was like some sort of movie scene and that I barely hesitated in my step as I continued past him. This was in Townsville, home of the biggest Army base in Australia, and apparently I, in my stillettos, just decked one of our finest.
Janine:
I'm glad you spoke up, because I think your situation brings up an important point which is often overlooked. The effects of rape are not isolated to the victim. When a person is raped, the effects ripple outward to family and friends.
It does affect those around you and it sure as hell affects your intimate relationships. How a person deals with being raped can often have devastating effects on those close to the person. There's grief, oftentimes depression, oftentimes self-medicating, oftentimes overwhelming anger, etc. All those things are passed on to family and friends. Obviously, this is never even thought about to those who subscribe to the "suck it up and get over it" school of thought.
Good on ya!
I can't express the appropriate sentiments of disgust at the attitude behind the piece as well as so many of the posters here, so I won't try.
I just wonder how many Christians think that no amount of suffering anyone else can ever feel will be equal to or greater than the amount of suffering of Jesus during the crucifixion (assuming it's all true, etc.).
Is this an essential part of some subset of Christian theology? It certainly seems like lots of Christians are fond of cramming as many superlatives and infinities as they can into their theology.
that post made me sick, literally!
I'd be slightly more sympathetic to pro-lifers if their interests was really in preventing abortion. I wouldn't agree with them, but at least I think they would be more consistent that way. Why aren't they looking at countries with low teen pregnancy and low abortion rates to see what they are doing right? If I were really anti-abortion, I'd be doing all I could to see the practice effectively eliminated. But they don't. We're not seeing the Netherlands or Japan held up as examples to follow, there's not an active call to implement what are successful in their own society. There's just moral outrage at the practice itself.
And therein lies the key to me. It's not about abortion, it's about being seen as being morally outraged. This movement isn't about stopping the practice and that's tragic for them.
BoS wrote:
The arse-end of, if not the world, certainly Australia. It was weird that I spent several years needing to be there but after six more living there, couldn't leave fast enough.
Of course some people seem to feel the same way about where I now call home - Adelaide...
Damn. I just about cried reading the stories here.
Bride of Shrek:
*Nods* Good. That's more than good, that's great. It's a refusal to live some sort of half life, being haunted by yourself. Anger is what did it for me, got me out of the shame spiral.
That's the stuff! Thank you for the big grin I have on my face right now.
I've been labeled as a murderer and a Nazi by far right-wingers online when I told them that I felt abortion should be a matter of individual choice, for each individual to decide according to their individual beliefs, free from outside pressures. I still face palm when I think of that. It's amazing what depths people will sink to when they're faced with a differing opinion.
Christian women (well, at least one) can take more. Wasn't Mary, mother of Jesus, raped by God? Or was it the Holy Spirit? Maybe it was a menage a trois with God and the Holy Spirit? If Jesus is part of the trinity, then maybe Mary was raped by her own son? It's all very confusing.
Bride of Shrek:
On that note, the one aftereffect that's the most difficult for me to talk about? The scars running up both my arms. I spent hours sitting with an exacto knife, slicing myself up.
The 'assumptions' that chuckles vents are not unusual for the brain dead fraternity
It seems that they find a natural home to become lodged and necrotic in fundegelical land.
And the various churches ,those magnificent bastions of clarion morality, clap their handy pandies and smile ever benevolently on the side lines as these xian heroes spill the beans and thus reveal the true meaning of xianity as it is in the real world.
Ah! surprised that the apologists have yet to rally round, with collective wisdom and understanding, 'well it is just one unfortunate example of a zealot with severe issues concerning personal sexuality'.
'No true xian...not a representative of xian faith...not what the xian cult is about...'
Maybe they would have all believe that every true xian would be appalled at the claims this misogynistic ass burp regurgitated, at least you would think so.
But the silence of 'repudiation' from circles xian says it all...
#219
I think what you hear is tacit approval instead, because obviously they all secretly agree with the 'assumptions' and 'chuckles' is a true xian hero for stating the obvious in these atheistic PC led times.
It is also aided and abetted by the 'true' xian trait of say nothing even if it is valid critique because you 'do not draw attention to remarks that are not good publicity for our collective delusion'
It does not have to be spelled out quite so, because underneath all the 'holier then thou' bluster, they all know they are rotten to the core and lies deception and bigotry are part and parcel of the xian modus operandi.
Besides which being for the most part mentally incompetent they tend to ignore uncomfortable facts and philosophy like the plague.
That means nothing to the jeebus legions and even less to the churches because every self professed jeebus clone is welcomed to the ranks seeing as there is no xian claim that should ever be dismissed ...just in case it is valid!
Besides only xians are apparently aware of what true evil actually is...
(usually to do with personal ignorance...bigotry....hatred...intolerance and fear...but not necessarily in that order)
Besides peoples xian beliefs are sacrosanct apparently.
Are you not all thankful that xians are the moral banner marchers to a better tomorrow?
At least that is what they boast!
And snug, and twice as smug, as a bug in a rug, cos they are protected from responsibility by a constitution they so like to rewrite when it suits!
It seems that seminaries and xian training camps have adopted the adage that no xian is a bad xian, and any means justifies a jeebus end.
They do not care about humanity, only about bums on pews and coins in the collections, it is a business after all!
Jeebus inc has a cash flow problem, and we all know where that led the banks recently!
Caine #250
Some of them even -- horrors! -- males! Real people!
Bride of Shrek #249
Way to go!
Ugh. What a horrible comment, and what a depressing thread.
I don't know how anyone can possibly think it's okay to defend rape, or to trivialise the suffering of rape victims. This shouldn't be a political issue; it's a matter of common human decency. Even when I was a right-winger and anti-abortion, I would never, ever have made offensive comments like that about rape.
There are several people on Pharyngula who have been victims of violent rape, and have been brave enough to share their stories. In light of their experience, and that of countless others, there can be no doubt whatsoever that rape and sexual violence are among the most horribly traumatic experiences that can happen to a person, and can leave lifelong psychological scars and cause mental and emotional health problems that never go away. To suggest that it's "less painful than a divorce" is an unimaginably stupid, callous and clueless thing to say.
Ugh...
This is about on a level with "I'm not a racist, I just don't trust those damn [insert-racial-epithet-here]..."
Again, it has to be said: what a revolting and morally bankrupt comment. On every level.
I couldn't make it to the end of the article, either time I looked at it.
The first time I saw this, I told myself, walk away, because you're gonna say something you might regret.
I'm gonna have to walk away again, because I'm gonna say something I might regret if I don't.
If anyone's curious, it involves rusted jigsaw blades and that monster's urethra.
I'll stop now.
If anyone's curious, it involves rusted jigsaw blades and that monster's urethra.
that's it! I'm finking on you to M&K!
:P
I imagine if the writer of the "argument" got raped he might have a different view on the matter.
http://laughinginpurgatory.blogspot.com/
Turn around and walk?
It makes me wanna bitch slap the f***er. I know, it sounds harsh, but it's really not that bad for him. After all, he's got Jesus to turn to, so he can take it far better than any of us could!
Once in a while I think humans might be OK, might actually stop the self destructive bent we seem to have, might actually start to behave with respect toward each other. Then I (partially) read something like this and feel the vomit hovering at the back of my throat. Appalling is not strong enough for this. This is when the bad old Jeffrey starts hoping someone gets - OK, deep breath, never mind. No need to drop to their level.
To paraphrase Mark Twain, although I do not really wish these folks harm, I would pass up all other entertainment to attend their funerals.
However, I will embrace my good side and further say that I would repeat would piss on them if they were on fire.
There's a science fiction story wherein the person who committed rape and murder is forced to relive the crime - as the victim. Over and over. I've often wished that were possible.
I used to volunteer at a rape hot-line. No divorce, however hostile, could ever be worse than rape.
I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape.
But maybe that's just me? How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT HIS ASSERTIONS ARE FUCKTARD!
Jesus fucking Christ, what is wrong with you?
It's obvious you have never been raped. Never. If you had, you, as a woman, wouldn't make such a fucking retarded remark. There is no comparison. None. Have you ever been curled up on the floor screaming in terror hysterics because one of your rapists had just gotten out of prison, and a DA in a Mid-Atlantic state was calling you to come testify against him because he'd raped another woman?
I have.
Go die somewhere. Your'e really too stupid to live.
Go die somewhere, and spare us your stupid.
"Atheists always use rape as an argument for justifying killing because they want to justify abortion. But is rape really that bad? It's a horrible experience but you get over it with time."
This kind of Xian (and "theist") would know. To them, murder is at worst "a horrible experience but you get over it with time" (though usually something you are, in front of your "brethren" anyway, snickeringly callous about or manfully proud of. As long as your Pope, priest, minister, mullah, etc. tells you it's for your faith.
How sure people like this are, who, quite obviously, have never suffered at all about anything that even threatened to touch their little tin hearts, about the pain of others!
And yet I do not wish them anything but the travails and happiness that can be found in any human life, though I can be said to hate them.
Wow. Just wow. I never fail to be amazed at the lunacy of fundies.
What was it that troll Jenn said above? Based on this person's starting position re: Jesus etc, then their conclusions are logical? Something like that. Well I disagree, they aren't logically derived from those premises, even superficially, but let's just say they are, I'm with Icthyic: the problem is the fucking insane counterfactual starting positions/assumptions. I also think this illogical counter factual post hoc rationalisations are problematic too, and let's be blunt, that's what most of this "theistic reasoning" is.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Someone said that once. Seems to be true don't you think?
As for the SStroll. Simple answer: if I had to perform an abortion, yes I would be willing to do so. As Mr Fire noted, give me the training and I'll do it (surgery isn't my area of expertise). I have no moral compunction in doing it at all. Same goes for killing a cow to eat it and so on and so forth. Really, the SSTroll's comment is little more than "I don't believe you people have the courage of your convictions". Sorry troll, we do.
And for the people who've shared their horrifying experiences here...there is nothing I can say other than you have both my admiration as survivors and my support as people who have been subject to horrendous crimes.
Louis
Aquaria #271
I think you read too much into Jenn's post (#46) and completely misunderstood it. It's pretty clear that she is not approving of the Christian quoted in PZ's post.
It's like saying this: to a Nazi, Jews are vermin scum, so for him, with his assumptions, it's no moral crisis to make them suffer for years in camps.
Pikemann Urge:
You're wrong. You didn't read enough - "Jenn" isn't a woman. "Jenn" is a misogynistic asstard who writes thinks like the cheating cunt should be killed.
Tangentially; while being nailed to a cross until you die doesn't seem like fun to me, I can't get my head around the concept that somehow Jesus' death was the worst suffering ever.
A lot of stuff happened through the ages, often in the name of christianity, that might beat crucifixion on any given day.
Not that I would advocate a painful death olympics, not really. But the write of this little piece of tripe needs a swift kick in the ballz. Wonder where that would rank with him.
Indeed. Could only read a few of the stories and I'm really hesitant to read the rest of the thread. The fucked-up shit that some had to go through makes me a sad panda :'(
I'm late to this thread, a hard thread to read. There's nothing I can add to what has already been said... but simply expressing horror at the psychopathic OP, and empathy for those who have shared their experiences of rape, doesn't seem enough. So I'm setting up a monthly donation to a charity which helps victims of rape, Rape Crisis:
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/
Quoting from their site: Rape Crisis (England and Wales) is a feminist organisation which exists to promote the needs of women and girls, who have experienced sexual violence, to improve services to them and to work towards the elimination of sexual violence. The first Rape Crisis Centre opened in 1973 and is independent of the government and the criminal justice system. Rape Crisis Centres are frontline services providing crucial support and independent advocacy for all women and girls of all ages who have experienced any form of sexual violence. Rape Crisis centres aim to offer specialist support, advocacy, counselling and information to women and girls, free of charge and in confidence, in a safe and non-threatening environment.
Perhaps other posters can recommended suitable charities in other countries, and we can turn our disgust into tangible help for rape victims?
Ugh... the idiot in the OP makes me sorry to be human.
The rest of the thread was really hard to read. There are a lot of brave people on here, and the stories have left a weird feeling in my stomach. Good luck and best wishes to all...
that's it! I'm finking on you to M&K!
Oh yeah. I'm quaking.
Seriously, I thought about mentioning attaching his dick to the floor with a nail gun, but a) not enough subtlety, b) not enough pain and c) I'm not sure if nails are made that small.
Moggie:
That's very generous and thoughtful. It will help a lot of people.
The best thing I can think of is to help out the local rape hotline a/o counseling center where ever you are. They are generally staffed by volunteers. Whether it's a bit of money or time, it's all welcome. I did counsel, but I had to stop after a couple of years, I had too much trouble staying objective.
Although 'Jenn' was certainly guilty of unclear prose, which apparently bordered on an 'apologetic' stance.
The fact remains that whatever this religiotards assumptions were...THERE WAS AND IS NO FUCKING EXCUSE...for a view that is at best misguided and ignorant of the reality of rape or at worst misogynistic mental masturbation so beloved of fundie death cults.
How anyone can excuse such an inhuman and frankly insane pontification, let alone those that actually make the claim, not only beggars belief but seriously encourages the view that most religious wackaloons are indeed mentally disturbed inadequate buffoons who are quite obviously to challenged in competency to actually be allowed to mix safely with the rest of decent society.
Care in the community should not apply to batshit jebus droolers!
Mental illness is a tragedy, but when it is self inflicted it is a crime against humanity.
Xians must be so proud of themselves, and of their own, that self analysis and criticism is not ever required, and that in itself is indicative of an arrogant and ignorant world view that is hampered by being actually totally fucking barking mad.
Anubis, "Jenn" isn't a xian, just a misogynistic asshole.
While obnoxious from anyone, that this comment came from a male is particularly obscene. What a miserable exceuse for a son/brother/husband/father of a daughter.
#281:
Volunteering is an excellent thing to do if you can, but pretty tough for those of us who suffer from social anxiety. I'm afraid I have to take the lazy way out and just give money.
Jesus was whipped and was crucified for three hours. A good torturer could keep a victim alive for days. Jesus had it easy compared to an Inquisition or Gestapo victim.
I was at university and I was on a night out with some friends of mine, I lost track of them at one point and couldn't find them no matter where I looked so I went back to my halls.
My friend was raped that night.
There is absolutely nothing I could have done, I wasn't to know what would happen, but part of me will always be thinking I could have stopped it had I been there.
I feel such disgusted horror as to how someone could do that to anyone and I do not have the words to express my deepest sympathies for those who have bravely recounted their own stories here on the thread.
What I do find encouraging though are all the heartfelt comments from all the posters here, especially those of you who are victims, who have given such brilliant advice to others. It's not religious bullshit words like "God still loves you" or anything so devoid of intelligence or meaning - it is kind, honest and helpful words of advice that carry a universe load of worth.
To have this Christian idiot and some of the brainless trolls on here say what they have sickens me to the core. I don't pretend to know the first thing about what it is like to be raped, but I do know what it is like to be a friend of someone who has been - hand-waving rape away like that simply shows you up to be the ignorant, sympathetically devoid, monsters you have let yourselves become.
I will end my post on a positive note and say my friend now has the most loving husband in the world and had a baby with him - she also still has friends who love her dearly too.
Ignoring all of the Christian BS, this person has a point. Rape is bad (in fact worse than he's making it out to be) but murder is still worse
@ Moggie #285,
Ok here's my problem: I'm male. My wife and I volunteer for a couple of things and we give to a few charities (the one you mentioned above in #278 just got added to the list, thanks for the info), but I have steered away from rape crisis centres for volunteer work.
Now I don't mean that being male is a problem in a self flagellating "aren't all men evil potential rapists" type way because frankly I think that's a fucking stupid attitude (and I've encountered it), but I find it hard to imagine that a bloke has a useful place in a rape crisis centre. In fact something about it makes my skin crawl for reasons I haven't fully thought out. Maybe that's my problem, but I get the impression that on balance a man's presence in a rape crisis centre would be more disturbing than useful. Maybe I'm wrong, it's not for me to say.
I'm not trying to make this "all about the menz", I'm not trying to insert myself anywhere I'm not wanted, or patronise little women who need big strong men for help, I am genuinely curious if there is any way a man can make a material, practical contribution as a volunteer at something like a rape centre, other than signing a Direct Debit form.
I'd actually like to know what other people think too, and if the consensus of opinion is that blokes should shut up, stay away and make a donation, then I'm happy with that.
I know it's a sensitive issue, but I am honestly curious if there are other good ideas for positive action that can arise out of our shared disgust about the OP. I hope people don't think this is too big a derail and that it's a genuine positive attempt to take something of value from something unpleasant.
Louis
Wow. I qualify on all three scenarios. I was raped (by my grandfather when I was 13), I got a divorce (probably doesn't quite count--it was amicable), and I once slammed a tray down on the head of a customer in the diner I worked in when he groped me. He was there most nights and was a friend of the owner. Went and told the boss and he said basically said good for you. Not all southern men are creeps.
I hate seeing how many here have suffered this way.
What murder?
rape apologist KingUber
I tend to be a rather passive person. Gentle in nature, I rescue animals and insects if they're in danger of being squished or drowned, I almost cried yesterday when I saw a dead deer on the side of the road, and I did cry when I brought an injured bird to a wildlife rehabilitation center and they had to euthanize it.
If I ever, ever, met anyone that pigheaded, that misogynistic, you can be sure that I would punch them until they're bloody.
@Caine and Others:
I can only offer words and cyber hugs for what happened to you. *hugs* People can be so evil sometimes.
You get over it in time, huh? Care
I hate threads like these. It's been 30 years this very year since my attack. I get to relive it all again as soon as the topic comes up.
To this day, I cannot stand to smell on anyone's breath any alcohol mixed with orange juice, especially vodka. Everything comes crashing back to me at the very smell.
I even get to relive the worst memories of the aftermath, all over again. I can still get extremely pissed off at the polygraph guy who treated me like the scumbag in the whole mess. I can still remember the counselor who told me that, really, I could have been hurt a lot worse (at the time I was attacked, there was a serial rapist who liked to stab his victims with a damned screwdriver).
You know, I might have been 18 and trusted the wrong person once, but I wasn't a fucking moron. I knew it could have been worse. But telling me that didn't help the pain I had right then.
I've hated therapists ever since, and never cooperate with them. You better look like this if you're a therapist wanting cooperation from me.
Now I'm crying.
Thank you to everyone who has shared, and I wish all the best to you.
Louis - I think your instincts may be right. It's simply so vulnerable a place that even with the best of intentions, some people who need those services may be uncomfortable with too many men around. If you do want to help physically, then things that don't involve the crisis center clients directly might work. Things like loading/unloading supplies, sorting through donations, helping to coordinate and organize schedules, that kind of thing.
@Carlie #295,
Thanks, that's basically what I figured. I am probably slurring the character of genuine and good hearted men working in rape crisis centres, but "client facing" (if that's the right word, sounds awfully euphemistic to me) jobs in rape crisis centres don't strike me as being anything a man should be involved in.
Louis
It is always very difficult to wrap your head around Christian arguments. They are so deluded (and take for granted that everyone else is just as deluded as they are) that they just sound mentally deficient. Which, I'm sure, this guy is. But, one thing I *think* this guy is alluding to is this: many Christians that I've met are entirely baffled at the very concept of a planned pregnancy. They just don't understand the very idea. All babies, to them, are unwanted. So, a baby from rape isn't that different. Makes me hurt a little inside, but I believe that is the crux of his argument.
I’ve commented every now and again here, always somewhat tentatively because I tend to be overawed by the magnificent brain power on show from everyone else… Can be a bit intimidating.
But THIS… This makes my blood boil, makes me angry, sad, hurt all at the same time. So I have to say something…
Aged 13, some turd in his mid-twenties got me drunk and high, and took the inevitable advantage, and then 10 years ago aged 15 I was gang raped by some evil, pathetic, horrible, vile, contemptible monsters. On New Years Eve, so you see my millennium didn’t really start out all that great. The policeman I eventually found (in Brussels) told me to ‘go home, there’s nothing we can do’. The one teacher I chose to confide in refused to, would not or could not believe me.
And so I decided to deal with it on my own. Which backfired horribly when I was 18 and it all came out in the wash.
I will NEVER forget the look on my fathers face when he found out why I was so difficult, and why I had been behaving like an unreasonable, and sometimes downright scary crazy teenager. He was heartbroken. I still wish they never knew. I feel guilt for what it did to my family. What I did to them over the whole sorry mess. I didn’t want to hurt them.
How dare this ignorant scrunt presume to know how bad or not rape is. Fuck off pal.
Thank you for letting me share, I’m sorry it’s a bit convoluted and badly thought out. My brain is still reeling from the shock.
I wish guys wouldn't feel so guilty about the monsters in our midsts.
1) The one thing it made me do is look for the real and genuine in men. It made me stop thinking that it only mattered if someone had looks, witty repartee, money, and so forth would be less likely to hurt me. Or at least a lot less likely to do what had happened. Which made me realize...
2) That some men can exasperate me to no end, but even they are amongst the vast majority of men who are good and decent people. Most of you do not treat women so badly. A lot of you were the ones fighting so hard for justice for me.
Funny, when I look back, the people who cared the most about what happened to me, outside my immediate family (notice the qualifier), were the cops.
I posted this on the original site too.
1. Rape is a violent crime and is universally traumatic. Divorce is usually not. The victim who's getting raped does not choose that fate; divorcees most often do... (you moron)
2(a). Abortion is not murder. The foetus is not a baby, atleast insofar as multicellular balls of goo aren't babies.
2(b). Not being a parent or a woman, I can't be certain about this, but I think it's rather difficult to form intimate personal bonds with balls of goo. Children, on the other hand, parents do form bonds with; usually very intimate, and lasting whole lifetimes.
Thanks for sharing Evolved Dolly. Sincerely.
It's not badly thought out. That's just how it is when you try to explain things that don't actually make sense anyway.
Yeah, so often the consequences are not what you think. They involve other people. That's one of the amazing things about misogyny. Even more than it denies the humanity of the woman it denies her importance to society and to the people who love her. As if woman is some isolated concept that has not importance to other people. A woman is not a member of a social net, she has no value, no one loves her or can be hurt by seeing her in pain.
That's how it works too, reinforcing that little voice inside an abused person that tells them no one will ever love them. So they'll keep coming back and thanking them for their "mercy" oh and keep loving Jesus.
Because Jesus can forgive you.
All this bullshit.
It's funny though too how people don't see connections some times.
Why is this crazy person crazy has so many potential answers :/
For me when it was all said and done I spent ten years in hiding. My future, or that girls future, is gone and I have no ability to know what it might have been. It wasn't the acute trauma, it was the combined effect of societies treatment of me that killed me inside... not to mention the long standing effects of the past that culminated in that year.
I'm nearly thirty now and some times I feel like I slept for five or six years because really that's exactly what I did. But don't think other people didn't get hurt in the process either. They have.
And honestly there's nothing I can do about that either.
I was lucky- for some reason the guy who dragged me into the bushes telling me what he was going to do next changed his mind when I started screaming. I don't know why, and I do know I was likely to have wound up raped and/or dead. I was just lucky.
I'm a female and a doctor, and there is an insane amount of rape that I do hear about (and actually, most of it has been stranger rape), so it makes me wonder exactly how much more can there be. So far, none of the women I have seen have been willing to press charges, which I think is a shame, but I don't press things.
I suspect it's the local culture: here, it's well known that domestic violence is never followed up by police; that police are hard on women making accusations of rape, and that women are often not believed.
It's wrong wrong wrong, and makes me so angry.
I don't have any wise words to add to this discussion, and I'm too much of a pacifist to wish death and destruction on the idiot who spouted this vile stuff, but I did find myself chuckling and nodding at Jeffrey D's comment #269
Did anyone else feel just a twinge of sympathy for good Christian women out there? The anonymous writer (do we know who he is - should we even be taking any notice of him?) declares that they can "take more" than we troublesome atheists - that put some horrible images in my mind....
This is why I support what people like richard dawkins and christopher hitchens do. Religion has poisoned the mind of this individual and wasted his/her life. I do not want this to continue further.
Too often the only voices speaking out about rape, about the lack of justice for victims, about the pain and trauma for victims and their families, are female. All too often, the unsympathetic police officers, judges and lawyers, the leering journalists, and apathetic bystanders, are male.
Of course it would be wrong for men to set themselves up as spokepersons for female victims, or to pretend that we are the solution. However, I also know rape is often presented as an issue for feminists and politicians, and that the silence of men on the issue must be one reason why rape is seen as somehow more shameful than other types of violent assault.
I hope that the world has come a long way over the last few decades, and I think that it is directly as a result of the rejection of religious attitudes that give men ownership of women. Don't forget that the marital rape exemption was only abolished within the last 20 years in many parts of the US and in England and Wales.
Possibly, one of the reasons that men feel a need to vocally decry rape and rapists, is because many of us grew up surrounded by people who were unwitting rape appologists, or at least held those misogynistic attitudes which were prevalent in society. Remember that rapists look just like us, so perhaps there is also a selfish need to distance ourselves from them, just in case we are mistaken for one, and might also fall under suspicion.
Louis - start with the Men Can Stop Rape group.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
Men need to be involved in such activism, as the sad truth of the world is that a LOT of people only hear something when it's said by a man.
This is a way for men to get involved that actually focuses on stopping rape, as opposed to the dealing with the aftershocks.
Hoorah! And I can tell you from experience that he had a very difficult time explaining the event to his friends, if they didn't find out and finish the job for you. Military types, excepting cases like Tailhook (shudder) don't go for disrespect of women, especially the brass. (Well, okay, blatant disrespect of women. They have a long way to go.)
It's an essential part of their theology that they find a way to rationalize and anesthetize the fact that life tends to suck; that's true of most religions. Where it gets pathological, and it seemingly gets there very easily, is when personal pain is completely dismissed because "Jesus had it worse" or "Buddha suffered more" or somesuch. Not every worshipper falls into this trap, and not every celebrant encourages it, but it's hard to tell the difference.
DING!Moral outrage means you can feel like your're better than someone else for cleaning up the world. There can be no higher feeling for someone trapped inside a moralistic religion like Christianity. I should know - I fell into this particular trap, if only with my left foot.
No, they make tack guns. They're sold in hobby shops everywhere. I'm more concerned that it would have enough power, but his dick is probably so shriveled and flaccid it wouldn't matter anyway.
You seem to understand that raped women can harbor unresolved anger toward men, which is true. As a male healthcare provider, I routinely recuse myself from a raped woman's presence because all I do is make her more anxious. I would rather let the females do the job and let the woman on the hospital bed feel just a bit more comfortable.
But I ask you: is not showing that some men around her are caring individuals so much better for the recent rape victim? And is it true that all rape victims are female?
Or, every woman should want to have a baby, and oh hey look, there's one in you right now! Isn't that just wonderful? What they aren't getting is that unplanned parenthood is a trauma that can be made worse by circumstances, and not everyone can "deal with it" the way some think they ought to. Sure, I would rather not see a fetus aborted, but that's just the high and moral statement. Much more important to me is a baby raised in a loving, stable family with a mother and a father that aren't traumatized by the child's presence.
@Walton: I don't always agree with you, and I sometimes think your ideas are misinformed, but thank you (just this once) for not being an insane jerk.
Now that the catch-up is over, I am noticing that a disturbing percentage of the commenters are rape victims. Is anyone else noticing this? It's making me think that rape is much more prevalent than even I had thought.
"I suspect it's the local culture: here, it's well known that domestic violence is never followed up by police; that police are hard on women making accusations of rape, and that women are often not believed."
Women who report rape are frequently questioned in an aggressive, threatening manner by police in the same fashion they would interrogate a suspected criminal.
The message is loud and clear and all women hear it - don't report it, because you will be on trial and he will get away with it.
The estimation is that 1 in 4 women have been victims of some sort of sexual assault. If true, that means there are a hell of a lot of rapists out there, the vast majority of whom get away with it, without even a moment's inconvenience.
The longer I spend involved in rape crisis centers, the more I understand the radical feminist separatists. I don't agree with them, but I understand.
@Louis
It may be helpful to remember that not all rape victims are women and not all rapists are men, although the numbers are outrageously skewed in that direction. There are victims who would be much better served talking to a man in a crisis center. Unfortunately, there are very few resources for these folk. It's worth contacting your local crisis center and asking what they need.
You just walk away.. Right after helping them on their last few steps before heaven
Also I ought to thank many of the lovely commenters here for providing me with fodder for my graphic revenge fantasies regarding the man who raped me. I am often concerned that he would die before suffering enough. I really like the nail gun idea.*
*Requisite disclaimer: Of course I will never carry out such fantasies, but they are very pleasurable. And that assweasel better be fucking glad that he's in a different state that me.
Perhaps we should hope that it is not for that reason, but because those commenters feel that this is a place where their stories will recieve the intelligent and empathetic hearing they deserve.
#305
Dude, maybe you need to read the thread again.
1) I was responding to a prior subthread about a man who was beating himself up over this remark. Do keep up.
2) Don't preach to the choir, and don't assume anyone here is as big a moron as you implied.
3) I know what it's like to be in the crosshairs as a victim, and worse, a victim who went as far as I could with the legal battle, and against 4 assholes who each had more money than I'd ever see. But I got justice, dude. In East Fucking Texas. I went the fucking distance.
You don't tell someone like me that I can't let the good men know that women know they're out there, that they don't have to take the fall for things that they don't (and will never) do, and that we appreciate their support.
Got it?
@ Bernard Bumner #305:
I agree that a man (self included) might vocally decry rape to distance himself from rapist/misogynist/rape apologist men, but it can also come from a good place too. We can also genuinely care and want to help (or at least not be part of the problem).
@ Endor #306:
Thanks for the info. I'll put it to good use.
@ Deriamis #307:
Oh I agree it could be a good thing to show that. I would imagine it's an individual preference thing for the victim.
As for the all rape victims being female thing, well obviously not. But to be frank, (like with the FGM thread) too many men make the thread "all about the menz" when discussing things that primarily affect women. I'm concerned I'm doing it now to be honest*. I thought about a line or to in a previous post about male rape victims being helped by seeing a sympathetic male face. However, men are a minority of rape victims by a large margin, so I thought my anal retentive desire for 100% accuracy and completeness would have been insulting/distracting in that instance and left those lines out. ;-)
I had the same thought, just not as politely! I thought "how fucking common does rape have to be for a significant number of the few hundred self selecting commenters here to be survivors of rape?". It's a horrifying thought. I know the stats, but stats are cold.
Louis
*I don't mean to do this. I'm motivated by a desire for some constructive information to come out of the collective wisdom of people here.
@ Nepenthe #309,
Well aware of it, see my answer to Deriamis in #314.
As for the local centre, perhaps you're right. I freely admit that a major reason I haven't contacted the centre for volunteering is I definitely feel icky about a man volunteering for that sort of thing. Like I said, maybe that's my personal limitation. But this thread isn't about me and my experience, so I think we should end that aspect of the derail right there.
Louis
Aquaria,
Sorry for the offense. I hastily edited the post, and left out what I originally quoted you for. I left the quote in, because it seemed relevant as I rushed to re-read it. Still, I presume that I missed your intended context, and misconstrued your post. I should also have better explained my intentions for posting.
That I don't see. Please explain.
Good. I mean it. I'm glad that people like you are able to do that, and I hope I never do anything that pisses on your sacrifices and struggles. I hope that I'm not even a tiny part of the system that make it difficult for victims to get justice.
Nope. And I wasn't trying to.
I was simply trying to articulate some of the angst that I feel as a man when discussing sexual violence against women. I should have explained that in the first place. Believe it or not, part of the reason that I was editing was because I didn't want to unintentionally come across as patronising or stomp on anyone's feelings.
I really am sorry.
@46
You're no woman and no atheist;
just another pretentious hoax like the lord your saviour jeebus "hey I died for your sins here" christ himself.
@ Louis
Sorry. Didn't mean to preach. The comments just got crossed in the intarwebs and I didn't see deriamis' comment before uploading my own screed.
A story I heard from a rape survivor. She had attended a group counseling session in an in-patient program, and the counselor had talked about the tendency of family, friends, strangers and other fuckwits to want to minimize the trauma of rape. At lunch after the session, they were having chicken and one woman who had been raped by a family member stabbed a fork into a chicken breast and yelled, "Fly, Sucker, you're not hurt that bad!!"
I do not know how human beings find the strength to surmount such trauma. But they do. You guys have, and your stories show that humans can be strong and decent and kind. Many of my female friends have been raped. My wife was raped at 12, so your stories resonate. I hope that you can look at them and see the strength you possess. Dog bless you.
As noted by the good Rev above, there is no murder.
But in the same vein, to say that the taking of a life is worse that rape because, hell, if you're raped at least you're still ALIVE... that's a load of bullshit anyway. Some people take their own lives because the trauma they lived through is destroying them from within. Yes, there are some experiences that are, indeed, worse than death - and not everyone has the ability to bear the scars and go on.
@Nepenthe,
Oh no, I didn't think you were preaching! I though you made a good comment that, coincidentally I'd just answered.
As for ending the "me me me" aspect of the derail, well dammit, you just gave me a good excuse!
;-)
Louis
Jenn said, "I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape."
Bullshit. Divorce doesn't include physical violation.
Thanks in a way ARID, but there's no glory in it.
There's nothing noble about me at least. I'll speak for myself only with that. Others may not agree with me.
Psychologically I have a lot in common with people from war zones. I'm quite well. Better mentally and physically than some people who've been through less. But it's not because I'm brave.
If you think you're going to die it isn't brave to do whatever it takes to survive. It's just instinct.
I suppose it would be brave to "rejoin society" in a way. But you don't, or I don't. I mean I'm here.
But I'll always be from some where else.
KWIM?
Louis,
Absolutely. I explained myself poorly. I meant that in a context such as this, where there is clearly unity against rape, men - and most definitely myself - can feel the need to say something simply to be heard to say it. Ironically, I think that was part of what I was doing; I felt slightly queasy that I'd been following the thread but hadn't commented.
As it is, I seem to have offered up something which is prone to be misinterpeted. I didn't really explain my self well enough.
Just to be clear: of course we should all take any opportunity to do something about rape and violence, and it should be a positive thing done for the right reasons. I applaud your desire to be as actively involved as possible.
I too want to thank everyone who shared their painful stories here. As hard as it may be to let it out, please remember that by doing so you are gifting those of us who haven't been through it with insight. You are reminding us what it is we need to fight in this world. You are fueling the compassion of those of us that are capable of feeling it. For all of this I thank you.
My own anecdotes:
I've never been raped. Being male it is of course possible but far less likely. I have however, been touched by rape. I had a long term partner who had been abused as a child, possibly* by her father. The anguish she felt spread to every part of her life. It is no life at all when you're every concern is for your safety. No human interaction was easy for her, decades after the fact. The christian asswipe who wrote the above has no fucking idea what he's talking about.
Rape also affects those like myself who are only touched by it second hand. I was there when a sub-human who had raped 11 IIRC women was caught. It was around midnight when I heard a woman screaming. This was not unusual for the neighbourhood I was living in at time. Usually it was some kind of argument and rarely was anything more harmful than words being used. After a couple of minutes I realized that something was different. I threw on my boots and jacket and dropped something heavy in my pocket, just in case.
It turned out I wasn't needed. Two guys had another cornered on the landing of the staircase that snaked up the hill by my apartment. As I approached another guy ran past me with a blanket. One of the two holding the rapist was saying "Oh, yah, if you weren't going to rape her, why is she naked?" The screaming in the bushes beside the stairs continued unabated.
The rapist was repeating over and over "Just ask her." I walked past up the stairs in a daze, growing angrier with each step. One of the guys said "You're lucky I have my own troubles with the law or I'd fuck you up." the other said "I've got no problems." and hit the rapist. Someone on a balcony called out "Stop that."
This exchange stopped me in my tracks. I thought, "What the fuck are you hitting him for? You're standing on a staircase, just push the fucker down. With any luck he'll break his neck." I was turning around to go back down and either do it myself or encourage the others to do it when the cops arrived at the top of the stairs. There's no doubt in my mind that that was the only thing that stopped me from attempting murder. You see, this was after my relationship had fallen apart, in no small part because we couldn't get past all the difficulties the abuse she had suffered had caused.
To this day I have profound regrets about that night on the stairs. I regret that I was too late in coming to that poor woman's aid. If I had been the only responder I would have been too late. I regret that I lost control of myself to the point where only an accident of timing prevented me from acting on my basest instincts. I regret that part of me still wishes that the cops had arrived a couple of minutes later, even now, eleven years on.
Please understand, I'm not trying to make this about what us poor men have to go through. What happened to that woman that night and the eleven others that that piece of shit raped or any of the women who shared their stories above is far, far worse than the effects I've received. I just want to point out that the effects of rape ripple out and sometimes you can't "...get over [them] with time..." even when those effects are second hand.
*I say possibly because I have a suspicion that she was a victim of false memory syndrome. When FMS came to light I realized that all of the things I read about it fit with what my partner was going through. I'll never know though and either way she was deeply troubled.
@ Bernard Bumner,
Happens to the best of us.
As for the rest, I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet...to use a euphemism that is guaranteed to raise eyebrows around here!
Louis
Let's see how he feels about rape after I introduce this splintery broom handle to his anus. Then sci-fi him into carrying the broom's mutant broomspawn for 9 months before forcing them out his urethra.
Splintery broom babies, out the urethra. That's how annoying this guy is.
I know what both of these feel like.
They are not the same.
Divorce is much better.
Divorce = realizing you can not control some one else's actions towards themselves and those actions impact you indirectly because you are emotionally connected to them, that they control their lives, even if you love them, that love may not mean what it did, that things change, that people leave, that values alter, that you didn't realize you made mistakes that there is no remedy for.
Painful things.
Rape = realizing you can not control some one's actions against you directly, that emotional connection can not stop them from hurting you, that being a total stranger can not keep them from hurting you, that you are never safe from anyone, that you will not be believed if you are injured, that you will be attacked, that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself, that your body is not your own.
These are not so much "painful" as profoundly traumatizing.
Are there some things in common here? Only a few, and it is a matter of scale.
*Emotional connection can not stop some one you loved from hurting you.*
Yes. This is in common in abuse, divorce, rape.
However it does not make these things the same, and it does not make sense to equate the scale of them.
In both one may feel that their feelings don't matter, but in divorce their feelings are about another person. In rape your feelings about your own physical safety and well being do not matter.
It's more similar to attempted homicide. Having also felt that. Yes, it is more similar to that.
When you know that some one is raping you you know you may also be killed because some one who can physically rape you can physically murder you.
It's that simple.
Now, how can some one be so twisted they thing divorce could be as painful as rape?
EASY. They think they own their partner, so much that the partner leaving and hurting them emotionally, cutting off love from them, makes them feel like something of *theirs* is being taken.
It isn't.
Nobody is ever yours. You can't always have or keep what you like anyway. Grown up life lessons from pre-school.
Maybe they have no regard for their partner's identity. Their partner, who may want the divorce, is nothing, has no feelings. The person who would feel this way is so self involved that they can not even relate to the person divorcing them and so completely sure that their love entitles them to ownership of that person that the divorce feels like a personal attack?
Who knows. But it definitely suggests to me a lack of recognition of the partner as an individual to compare divorce (being hurt by some one's leaving) to rape (being hurt by an acute attack on one's self).
I wish that I could say that I cannot imagine someone making such an idiotic and illogical statement as "divorce is worse than rape," but unfortunately I can.
I would like to ask the moron one thing, though: imagine a person in your family or very close circle of friends. Now, that person's spouse divorces them. Is your gut reaction . . . is your visceral impulse to kill the offender? I thought not.
Now, that same person in your family or close circle of friends is raped. Date raped, violently raped, whatever. How can you possibly not be fighting an impulse to grab a gun, a knife, a big fucking rock and exact some revenge?
And as a man, just for my own selfish purposes (therefore eliminating any "moralistic" or "ethical" arguments), the rape of women is logically more problematic for me. The fact that some men divorce their wives doesn't give any women cause to be more on their guard around me, while the fact that some men rape women does.
The argument that rape is comparable to divorce is one that only a stupid waste of several trillion pseudo-human cells could come up with.
Pose that question. Then get ready to be surprised by human beings again.
I have been raped. I have been divorced. I have had and raised a child. I have had an abortion. Of all of these, I would say the rape was the most difficult to get through, the abortion the least. It was easier than having dental work, and I have had no regrets and no emotional distress over it.
Ol'Greg @ 328,
comment saved for awesomeness.
Thank you Ol'Greg.
D'you know, posting that has almost made me feel better, sort of, in a perverse way. And by the way, hugs/sympathetic noises/and all that, whatever you prefer, to the brave strong people who've shared their hard stories on this thread.
I am now, at the grand old age of 25, finally getting to the point where I feel I'm able to sort out this mess I've been dealt. About time too...
I don't think you ever get over a rape. You learn to live with it. That's the awful thing, as someone said upthread, it's not like burglary or theft. You can't replace what they take. It changes you so dramatically. The person you might have been is gone.
And don't even get me started on the reminders that follow you around every day, a scene in a TV programme, a stupid joke in the pub, a throw away comment from someone who ought really to know better.
I dont want this hanging over me every sodding day of my life anymore. I'd give anything not to be the woman who recoils suddenly for no immediate reason from my really rather wonderful partner, and the confusion/frustration it causes him (and me). The woman who has panic attacks every now and again. Those are scary... The woman who gets so bloody furiously angry that I'll hurt myself to snap out of it.
And hopefully, with the help of aforementioned super fab man, and my awesome family I'm getting there slowly. So really I'm pretty damn lucky.
I still wish I had never ever been forced into this position in the first place though...
I wonder if the person who said this is Catholic. After all, they'd feasibly be the most practiced and willing as rape apologists, since they have to excuse so much of that sort of thing.
I also think that the person who said this is male, particularly because the divorce reference seems to be an off-hand allusion to the idea that bad divorces = male rape in the material sense. Total conjecture but that's what came to mind. But if it needed to be said - which apparently it does since there are still far too many cretins infesting the planet - divorce is completely different than felonious sexual deviance against another's person.
And tying the whole discussion to abortion in the most obtusely illogical way is the sign of someone looking for excuse to believe anything.
I think I may have to start a new fanclub. This guy is AWESOME!!
But seriously...no one really thinks this here do they? Not in this blogchat, in the US.
"And don't even get me started on the reminders that follow you around every day, a scene in a TV programme, a stupid joke in the pub, a throw away comment from someone who ought really to know better."
This. A million times this. The "stupid jokes" were a recent topic of discussion here. I sincerely hope that more people hear this and realize that the "just a joke" they tell is ripping open the wounds of another human being, for shits and giggles. It's vicious in its apathy.
And Ol' Greg - you are one of the reasons I come here. Thank you for #328.
Bullshit, maybe under the law, but not in personal belief. My fiance and I had a discussion about this just last night. She told me that she would rather die than be raped. I agree.
Maybe you still think murder is worse, but please don't presume that to be the case for everyone.
The crucifixion of Jesus was not murder. It was an intense S&M session.
it's possible to be sexually taken advantage of without it being screaming, violent rape like the folks here are talking about. it's possible to be in a situation where if someone starts groping you one night and you don't feel safe fighting them off because you're basically homeless and they let you live with them, and you aren't totally disgusted by them, you just let them do it, just to get it over with. it's possible to persuade yourself that you wouldn't have gone along with it if you weren't in love with the guy. it's possible that for most of the rest of your life you wondered if that was really all love was, that sense of shame and betrayal and being tied to someone who was a mistake.
it's possible, after a long time of this, and some repeats, to decide you've had enough of being taken advantage of.
I'm still trying to decide if there's such a thing as a decent relationship, and how you go about getting one.
It is really just more victim blaming. Telling people that it isn't so bad, and that Jesus suffered more than that for you, and that abortion is murder, is simply another exercise in control. As others have noted, the church doesn't really care about aborted foetuses, it cares about unquestioning fealty to dogma. It doesn't really care about victims, it cares about whether those self-same victims need the church. I think it was probably written by a priest.
The whole exercise is simply to say that doubt in faith is bad, feeling and thinking for yourself is bad, believing that control over your own body is paramount is bad.
Rape is trivialised and abortion is misrepresented, because they both highlight (what should unarguably be) the right of females to self-determination.
Does anyone know where this quote comes from? The link leads to another blog, and it isn't attributed there, either. Does anyone have a citation to an actual Christian author, or is this one of the most distasteful Poes ever?
Katharine:
Actually, it can; it's called spousal rape. That was one reason my blood began to boil when I read that idiot's post: one of the reasons women get a divorce is because they were raped by their husbands!
FossilFishy:
If you're a straight male, yes. Gay porn is replete with rape-sim fantasies, and it's very common for a man to be raped by another man, especially if one of them is seen as "submissive" in a particular social setting. There's also the whole top vs. bottom, dom vs. sub mentality that plenty of gay males think all other gay males should fall into. It's like a very twisted, self-reflective version of misogyny.
To this day I have profound regrets about that night on the stairs.
This has an odd resonance for me because of my own experience on stairs...I am lucky enough (and, yes, it's LUCK, not anything I did that magically protected me) to have never been raped. However, one day I was walking up the stairs out of the subway as a young man was walking down them. He reached out and grabbed my breast. I pushed him out of the way and continued-quickly-up. Eight years later I still wonder if I should have turned around and kicked him down the stairs.
Dianne:
Be glad you didn't. You may have become a statistic if you had tried. Running away, if at all possible, is by far the best option. Even martial arts instructors who train women in self-defense say that as well.
The offensive quote comes not from anyone of interest, but from an anonymous email. The author could be Christian or not, having sincere, nefarious, or mischievous intent.
How do we know it's not from a simple troll, now laughing with arms folded at the Barf-O-Rama he created? (Think "Stand By Me".)
... or even from a Christian troll, now laughing at the credulity shown here.
Trey Cheotomy:
Then a simple troll is laughing, with arms folded, as people here are telling their own painful stories and reliving the memories that his unthinking commentary provoked. Most trolls stop laughing when the outrage moves into real pain. If this is a troll and he's still laughing, then he's fairly subhuman.
Even so, Poe's Law states that trolling is indistinguishable from reality. Therefore, it doesn't matter if this is a troll at all; we can react as we wish.
What does it matter?
In this case, it has given us the opportunity to hear some important personal stories from some inspiring people, to reflect on their experiences, and learn something. (My own cockup contribution not withstanding.)
Even trolls have their value.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically speaking, I don't think Xtians have had much of a problem with killing babies. So, what the fuck is the problem here? Oh yeah, I forgot, they also have a history of butting into everyone else's business.
Fuck a bunch of this guy and everyone like him.
Perhaps, if Jesus had actually been a real person and was actually crucified, the Romans would have had some "fun" with him while torturing him, Like rape? How would the christians feel about that?
I can't agree more with this statement. As someone who's trained in martial arts for nearly a decade, this was the one single universal lesson among all the styles I studied and all the teachers I had.
You can be trained to defend yourself if you can't run, but the best option is ALWAYS to not have to use that defense in the first place.
-Kemanorel
Then they'd say Jesus' rape was so much worse than anyone else's, so if you become the victim of a rape you should pray harder and Jesus will make you feel better about it.
There's also the whole top vs. bottom, dom vs. sub mentality that plenty of gay males think all other gay males should fall into.
I actually like to think of myself as a 'sub' but don't want to impose that on anyone else. I'm wondering, is there something wrong with that on my end? I don't want to be seen as misogynistic.
I'll take this to the endless thread if this seems a bit too off-rails for anyone, I'm just curious.
dogdad:
That's the thing - Roman soldiers were known to rape women and men they had defeated. Interestingly, Pilatus, the one the Christians love to blame for the crucifixion of Jesus, was also known to have stopped the rape of several young women by his soldiers. He also reportedly "washed his hands" of the whole Jesus affair because he did not agree with Jewish demands to have him executed, so it wouldn't have been the Romans in any case who took part in his torture.
Anyway, that's fairly far afield of the topic. Suffice it to say that most Christians don't know what the non-existent Hell they are talking about when it comes to their own pseudo-deity anyway. So one of them standing up and proclaiming messiah envy on all raped women is even more disgusting because of it.
Those 5 years working with rape victims makes me realize there's something that hasn't been said yet which needs to be....
Statistics tell us that there are many invisible victims reading this thread. The ones who do not feel they can say something here at this time. Sometimes, the only control you have left is the control over what to tell, to whom, and when. Your pain and suffering is just as real, and just as supported here, as that of the posters who have felt able to confide on this thread.
I have a question-what do you recommend as a good way to help a rape victim, both emotionaly and practicaly? I want to help people I met that were raped, but I'm a bit unexpirienced at being helpfull. Thank you.
Viperfish:
You're already doing it. Apart from training in rape counseling, all you really need is compassion and the ability to listen. Oh, and knowing the number of a qualified therapist when they're ready for it.
@ Louis #289
I was raped as a child. When I went to court I wanted nothing more than a big, strong man, or several, to sit behind me as a protective layer I guess. I don't know, it's something to think about. I don't know if they even allow that.
I know I'm really late to the party, but I couldn't respond before because it was too emotional. Threads like this are so hard.
I was raped by my partner. He had left, taken the kids with him, because I refused to do what he wanted. He came back the next day and spent 6 and a half hours trying to get me to have sex with him. He wouldn't let me leave, he wouldn't let me get dressed, he wouldn't let me go to the bathroom without him there. He followed me into every room I went to trying to disengage with him. He wouldn't leave when I told him to. For all that time I tried to reason with him that it was wrong for him to want to have sex with someone who didn't want it, all to no avail. Finally, after all that time, he said he would leave me alone for 2 days if I had sex with him. I was so desperate for him to leave me alone that I agreed. I thought it was just sex, that it would be over and then he would be gone and then he would NEVER see me again. I had no emotion when it happened, he even offered to use a condom. He got up and left and then I was able to leave.
I know, that as far as rapes go, this was mild. Easy even, to go thru. But The psycological damage that it has caused to this day, 3 years later, is incredible. I can't work because I can't deal with people anymore. I am trapped in a world where I know that I only have equality because the males in my life choose to let me have it, and I can no longer trust anyone with my personal safety. The cops pretty much compounded that feeling.
I have been divorced (different guy)and I was relieved to be able to leave a disfunctional relationship (I'd only stayed as long as I did because I believed in god and thought it was what I was supposed to do) I would give anything to take that day back again, not be where I was. The fact that I have to deal with this man about my kids makes me sick. Ironically, even tho he is an athiest, he believes that abortion is murder, even if the woman is raped and that I should have stayed with him even tho I didn't love him. I know now that I had been living for years with emotional abuse and I'm glad to be free of that. I'm also with someone who treats me as a human being (what a difference!!!) so I am much happier in that sense. But I still live with it. The only thing that keeps me from thinking about it constantly is reading, which, well today is kinda shot now. But I just wanted to add my story and ask those men who want to help, just keep doing what you're doing here. When some yahoo says shit like this, call them on it. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum, and silence is as good as approval.
As for rape being better than murder? I think they are reffering to the murder of teh baybeez as opposed to your own death, so false equivalency (sic) in my opinion. I would choose rape over death (of course many rapes lead to death anyway) but I would absolutely help anyone have an abortion if they had been raped.
My heart goes out to all of you who had to deal with this. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
@ badgersdaughter 339
I must admit, I rarely tell my full story. Simply stating "My fiancé raped me" doesn't leave me subject to questions about whether it was really rape, whether it was my fault, or why I stayed in the first place. The rest of the story -- that he used my mental illness and physical disability to manipulate me, that he was emotionally abusive, that I really did love him -- just complicates things.
My parents tell me that this was a good learning experience and that I won't make the same "choices" again. My friends, the ones who know the story, will at least throw me a bone and say how proud they are that I left.
I think it's good for people like us to tell our stories; people should know that rape doesn't always look violent.
Kevin:
Thank you, Kevin. Sometimes I wish it was possible to slap someone into humanity. (I know how silly that sounds.)
Aquaria:
Stupid asshole. It doesn't take much common sense to figure out that if you weren't killed, yeah, it could have been worse. That's obvious. Attitudes like the one you were exposed to are still common, unfortunately.
Evolved Dolly:
Not badly thought out at all, it's a tough subject and it's hard to translate all the emotion into words. Your experience was bad enough, it's especially difficult when there's no one to help or believe you.
redrabbitslife:
Understandably so. What a narrow escape you had! The lack of support women face in many places is just one more huge problem when it comes to dealing with rape. When I counseled, I was on-call to meet women at the hospital prior to their exams and to stay with them during. A lot of women panic and want to leave just thinking about the exam and having evidence collected. So much of what you have to do afterwords just feels like it extends the violation. It's tough, all the way around.
FossilFishy:
I talked about this earlier, and yes, it is very important to remember the effects of rape aren't isolated. The effects are wide and ripple outward to family and friends.
chgo_liz:
QFT.
As a woman who has been raped, I'd like to disagree with rape-apologist Christian. (Read that as "punch Jesus-freak in the throat".) I'd rather be divorced a dozen times than be raped once. You cannot compare a violent physical violation of your most private and sensitive body portions with the legal dissolution of a legal institution. It not only demeans the women who are raped, but it raises divorce to an underserved level of horror when many divorces are a viewed as a release and relief.
Anti-choice activists are generally middle-class, comfortable and have cushy lives that haven't seen poverty, rape, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc. and think that every baby deserves life. That is simply narrow-minded and wrong.
Let's be real here. The Christian right is NOT concerned with the lives of children. If they were, they'd offer to adopt all those children that are aborted. Instead, they are concerned with controlling the lives and bodies of women.
One other thing......it's not just atheists who support a woman's right to choose. People from every faith, socio-economic status and walk of life understand that forcing women to bear children they don't want, need or can't support is tantamount to the reproductive highjacking of women everywhere. Making abortion illegal will NOT stop abortion. It will merely send the practice underground and make it unsafe as it is in countries like Argentina, Mexico, the Phillipines and many others.
ladyh42:
What a terrible experience. Thanks for sharing that. Each experience is different, and it increases everyone's ability to understand the different circumstances of being raped and the psychological consequences.
Religion: protecting men from reality since 600 CE.
somebody slap the Jeebus outa that guy.
I am profoundly humbled by those folks who are willing to tell their stories here -- it is tremendously courageous.
What? WHAT??? I just... there are no words to describe that utterly vile excuse for a human being in the OP, other than to say it makes me weep bitter tears of frustration and rage.
This was an extremely hard thread to read. My best friend was raped several years ago before she moved back to the States and reading about all these horrible experiences makes sick at the thought of what she's had to go through and what she still has to deal with. While I'm horrified by the number of posters in this thread who have been victims of rape, I'm humbled and heartened by your bravery by coming here and relating your experiences. I hope you all find healing and happiness.
Thanks Caine, considering it's hard sometimes to know when you can tell someone (ie. when is it too much information, will it push others away) But one thing I have to say is Thank you PZ for giving us this forum to tell our stories in relative safety. The amount of support I've felt from here has been incredible and it's this group of people who make me realize that there are sane people and good men in this world. So thank you all.
'cept for SStroll, he can rot in his own filth.
In general we can't distinguish between (1) True Christian™ and (2) Poe trolling, but if there is a long and consistent online history for the person in (1), it is reasonable to increase its probability relative to (2). This does not rule out dedicated Poe hoaxes, but only makes a hoax less likely.
For the post in question, we have an anonymous email without any history. And since the content is so over-the-top offensive, as if it's designed to evoke responses, I would personally place slightly higher odds on (2).
But we are told "This is a Christian's idea of an argument against abortion," as if there is some reliable source behind it. But it's just a random email without name or history. We should be informed of that.
Incidentally I find the idea of a 14-year-old in his bedroom giggling at his very own Barf-O-Rama more appealing than the serious alternative. So maybe that I want it to be true has colored my viewpoint. But still...in fact we don't know.
(takes Nepenthe's hand respectfully and gives it a little squeeze)
Thanks, my dear.
I didn't even know it was rape for many years. Raped people, according to the stories I had heard, can point their shaking, traumatized finger at some violent scumbag and cry to heaven that they were abducted, attacked, beat up, cut, left crushed like an empty beer can on the side of the road.
I could only sit in a gray fog and point a finger at myself and wonder why I chose to be violated, and when I got pregnant because he lied to me about using birth control, it was my fault too, because sex does that and I should have known better. I still blame myself for it. It was 20 years ago and I haven't seen any reason not to blame myself for it.
A "simple" question for those here brave enough to share their stories - if you have sought, and received counselling for your awful experience, how do you avoid the sessions turning into an endless reliving of it?
How do you avoid that one event itself (surrounded as it inevitably is by other fears and memories) taking over your entire life?
How do you manage to let go and move on?
Misogyny, just one of the xian virtues
Xianity has long been a widespread cultural cancer; but that should not overshadow its beginning as small bands of fanatics drawn from the dregs of its originating cultures.
Paternalism, prudery, and pro-natalism. Mores dictating sexual control over women by men belong to a common cultural atavism -- faith based male supremacy. There is nothing moral about xian mores. They are immoral through and through.
The de-divination of western culture (including science) is our task for the next 100 years.
the anti_supernaturalist
Trey Cheotomy:
Possibly. The point is, though, that it still doesn't matter. It's not like we haven't heard exactly the same tripe come out of a Christian's mouth more than a time or two, and it is fully consistent with the belief systems of various Christians we have known to spout idiocy like this. So, even if this is a troll, it's still indistinguishable from the real thing, and our reaction is still genuine.
AnthonyK:
I don't know that you do. In my case, I "turned lemons into lemonade" and learned about the people who do these things. Others paint, or write music, or sadly, relive their experiences every day. I don't know of anyone who has actually let go and moved on in the sense of putting the event completely behind them. Maybe in the sense of "becoming a stronger person because of it", but that's it.
@AnthonyK #371
A good therapist will help you learn to cope and move on. Sometimes something will trigger a setback. Like last night I couldn't sleep. I was having flashbacks. That is very, very rare for me now but when I see my therapist next week, I'll tell her and she'll help me figure out the trigger (reading the OP) and how I can better deal with it next time or maybe just avoid those topics entirely for a while. Mostly what she helps me with it the aftermath. I have trouble opening up to people in my life and I will do things to myself that aren't healthy. I've come a long way. I used to cover my body neck to wrists to ankles. In 90 degree weather I would be wearing jeans and a turtleneck. I no longer ask permission to get my haircut or get the tattoo I got. Weird things that other people wouldn't even think about I have to give myself permission to do. Before therapy I would think about the attack everyday. Now I can go weeks and weeks without thinking about it. I don't know, therapy has been really positive for me.
@ badgersdaughter 370
Something similar happened to me with time between being raped and being able to name it as such. After leaving the man who raped me, I felt, if not fine, just numb. Only six months later, after my eating disorder had spiraled completely out of control and I became seriously agoraphobic did I realize how off-balanced the experience had left me. My case of PTSD is merciful in that, instead of having perfect memories of the events, I couldn't and still can't remember any of the time I had spent with him, except in snapshots and lingering emotions.
@ AnthonyK
Although I certainly haven't moved on two years later, I can at least take on the first question. Most of my therapy sessions don't deal with the rape itself, but the aftermath. It's possible to talk about that, about what's happened afterward, without reliving it, at least for me.
It can also be comforting to be able to relay my experience without significant fear of reprisal. It allows me to distance myself from the events and to name them, which I think is one of the worst parts about a patriarchal culture. We have so few words for what happens in an abusive relationship and for sexual violence. The word "rape" is such a blunt object. Both Caine and I use it to describe what happened to us, but the actual events that we experienced have almost nothing in common aside from non-consensual sexual contact. I don't know, I hope that makes some sense.
It wasn't a single event and it did take over my life.
You do what you have to; I sat inside a closet and covered my ears so I couldn't hear the baby crying, and I thought about killing myself, but I was a Christian and I had heard that God would send me to Hell if I did it, so I called a hotline and they told me that I didn't deserve to be treated like a slave and that it was OK to get out. So I did. Then the shelter ladies took my baby away because I was too exhausted and depressed to take care of him myself. My ex's folks paid an expensive lawyer to argue, successfully, at a court session that I was not notified of, that I was an unfit parent because I worked all the time and was never home and the baby wasn't being taken care of properly by his father, who stayed home watching TV and sleeping all day.
For a long time I was terrified of being pregnant because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to take care of and keep a baby. Now I'm 40, and even though I'm still theoretically fertile, the opportunity is lost.
My therapist concentrates on telling me not to focus on the past and that I'm a different person now. I'm certainly doing better; people like me, I have a good job, I have a lot of talents, I impress people sometimes. But they don't know.
This is not something I would recommend to others in my place, but I'm convinced that I'm not totally damaged past the point where I could carry my end of an excellent relationship with a good man. I'm solid silver, worth more than a lot of people's silverplate even if I do have a few scratches and dents. All I want is a chance to do it right this time.
This guy is easy to figure out.
He is divorced because his wife did not like the way she was treated both generally and sexually .
he belongs to the "in group" of believers but has no real belief himself none that he has come from deep contemplation of his life or his fellows.
He is the kind of guy that might have a hunting accident after driving everyone but equally miserable bastards away.
uncle frogy
Thankyou. I am awestruck by the testimony of some here. I can't imagine how one single event could be so utterly devastating to one's life - or rather, I can now.
I think that the degree to which you blame yourself for what happened is perhaps the most difficult for someone who's never been through it to comprehend.
You have my deepest symmpathy - and admiration.
There is more humanity, compassion, and empathy on this thread than one could find in a hundred churches on any given Sunday. Just sayin'.
As for the guys wondering about what they can do to increase the goodness women experience in society and feeling a bit helpless, you might want to read Shrodinger's rapist. Not every woman feels that way all the time, but they're good points to keep in mind when interacting especially with newly-met women.
Murder apologist bigdumbchimp.
You guys aren't even able to define when a fetus becomes a baby. One person said earlier that it's not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut.
badgersdaughter:
That's a beautiful way to express yourself. Thank you.
translated KingDoucher:
Bitchez ain't shit! Let's me derail this productive thread with my misogynistic bullshit!
I can define murder as the deliberate killing of a living human being.
So rape apologist KingUber are you against abortion even in the case of rape?
And frankly, I apologize for even responding to your misogynistic idiocy in this thread considering where it has gone.
sorry everyone.
Hey, Kingoober,
You didn't answer last time you spouted this shit: if abortion is equivalent to murder, what should the penalty be? For the doctor and for the woman. Give us some sentencing guidelines, here.
Carlie - thank you for posting that link. I was just trying to find it so I could do the same. All empathetic men need to read that.
Endor - I've taken to putting some really good posts in my bookmarks for easy referral. The thread on that one is also amazingly enlightening as several "but what about" comments are dealt with. Near the end it also includes a link to the estimable Chris Clarke's how not to be an asshole, a guide for men post.
Awww, KingUber is trying to derail the thread. How cute. *patpatpat*
KingUber:
How did I know that someone would eventually come along to derail this thread yet again?
No, forget it. You aren't worth the time and effort. I redirect you to my posts #125, #133, #166, #179 to show why you are wrong and a totally insensitive ass besides.
I am an atheist woman. I am a rape survivor. Tell me again how I'm somehow less able to handle this because I don't believe in God?
You guys aren't even able to define when a fetus becomes a baby. - King Ubu
Whereas you have no problem at all distinguishing fetuses from women: you at least pretend to care about the former.
Yeah. This I've never gotten. How is it supposed to make me deal better to know that some sky gremlin wants me to suffer, or wouldn't have had to do this to me if I wasn't such a bitch, or will always be that histrionic person at a party whose life is so much worse than anyone else's.
Yep.
Cuz what my life needs is one more narcissist in it.
No. Religion didn't help me. Recognizing the damage religion does though and how it affects even people like me who didn't really consider themselves religious to begin with certainly has helped. It's helped me come to terms at least with a lot of things about people.
I think what this poster really means though is that religion helps women STFU, and if no one's yapping about problems then there ain't no problems. Right?
This might sound strange but the general reaction in the thread against the garbage spewed by this insipid monster seems to be cathartic for me.
Someone I trusted got me when I was 12 (Didn't make the 16 to 18 years after which guys are, as a generalization, only victims of ganging up).
Took only 10 years (a depression and 4 days of sleep deprivation) before I was able (sort of) to write about it.
In the mean time I got a mild case of paranoia, had anger management issues, low self esteem and the aforementioned depression.
Being paranoid makes it quite difficult to get help. That took only another 10 years (and something completely unrelated that absolutely required me to learn to accept that not everyone was out to get me) to break through that barrier.
There is no way that a divorce, even a painful one, will still warp a life 20+ years after it's done.
And to the people who envisage doing harm to the idiot who wrote that comparison between divorce and rape. Please don't.
First someone who is so retard as to write something like that is not worth it.
Second the only thing you will achieve is turning this waste of air into a martyr. He (and most likely the people around him) would never understand why you'd do it.
For this reason I'd never want to meet him anyone else with that attitude saying something like that to my face or a rapist. The only person I could call a friend in those 20 years managed to teach me anger management and I don't want to lose said persons respect by performing some sick revenge fantasy (seeing as the guy I was a victim of was never charged).
Now this is written down I've to thank the impromptu self-help group that appeared in this thread. I'll probably sleep badly tonight but that is a small price to pay for the knowledge that I can now write about this without having to basically shutdown everything that makes me human. Which means I can finally start on the road to clean this mental abscess.
Thank you for the ability to cry about this without the crying being about feeling guilty. Thank you for the tears that aren't a recrimination of the past but of the knowledge that I have a future again.
It frightens me so many people have been raped. I know the stats were high but it never really sunk in.
So many survivors, It was both heart breaking and uplifting to read your stories. Thank you for sharing them even though they choked me up.
I am against heretic, cross, flag, witch and book burnings...but i find myself neutral on rapist and pedaphile burnings.
#393 Who Cares:
I care.
We care.
That is the price of being human.
Love conquers.
Thank you, Carlie for the link you gave in #379. Even though I've been in a stable relationship for over 30 years there were things talked about in that blog that I should have considered years ago.
WhoCares:
Thank you. I hope your recovery continues to go well.
Ol'Greg:
More or less. There are groups of xians where the women are taught from the earliest age, that suffering is their lot in life; they brought it on themselves (Eve and all that) and they also have submissiveness pounded into them. I'm reminded of those types who buy specially made modesty clothing, etc. These women are so ground down to begin with and everything in their life reinforces the notion that if something is fucked up, it's their fault, somehow or another.
They aren't 'godly' enough; they aren't submissive enough, they aren't doing this enough, they aren't doing that enough and so on. They're literally trained to suffer in silence.
A "simple" question for those here brave enough to share their stories - if you have sought, and received counselling for your awful experience, how do you avoid the sessions turning into an endless reliving of it?
How do you avoid that one event itself (surrounded as it inevitably is by other fears and memories) taking over your entire life?
How do you manage to let go and move on?
1) Maybe some of us, even when we're 15, have more going on in our lives than one admittedly terrible thing? Hell, a competent therapist could get years of work out of me. Too bad I've met only two competent specimens, in the dozens I've tried out.
2) With that in mind, some of us out here are lucky if we get to talk about various traumas in between therapist(s)'s fixations on the daddy issues, mommy issues, toilet issues, presumptions about our sexuality, pigeonholing us into DSM classifications, Pollyanna pretensions, megalomania, and so forth.
IOW: You're spending more time determining just how incompetent and/or insensitive a shocking number of therapists are before you even get to the really serious stuff. Can you tell I'm speaking from experience?
The way you let go is the way most of us do: You either cope with it, or bury it, because you somehow realize that wallowing in the grief is hurting you as much as what happened to you. Or it will, if you don't let it go somehow.
@badgersdaughter(#395):
The nick is more of a zen joke. There are so many different ways/inflections to say those two words.
And I (now) know, and can accept, that strangers care about this. Otherwise I'd never have put up that post.
I sense that the topic of "therapists" is a whole different ball game. Some "therapies" appear to be abusive in themselves.
Although when I had counselling for a bad life experience (trivial compared to rape) I found it very useful, and changed my view - that it was all basically woo-based, self-obsessed nonsense - completely.
A clear cut demarcation line. What is your problem with that? Easy differce: in utero, fetus; ex utero, baby. Even an idjit like you can see the distinction, even if you don't like it. Here's the deal: you can't take a picture of an in utero fetus without invading a woman's body in some fashion, but you can take of picture of the baby without invading the body of that same woman. Easy distinction to see, unless, of course, you are a stoopid minded delusional fool.
That has to be the single worst piece of fundie misogyny I have ever seen.
"...is rape really that bad?"... Umm, yes. Yes it is. Only the most out of touch chauvinist bastard imaginable would even ask such a question. He clearly has no conception of the trauma, both physical and psychological, inherent in rape.
Claiming that divorce is worse than rape simply beggars belief. I have to wonder what planet this cretin comes from. He has clearly never experienced a sexual assault himself. Neither have I, but at least I have enough common humanity to attempt to empathise with how horrific such an experience must be; the fear, the sense of personal violation, the social ostracision, the psycho-sexual trauma, the difficulty in mustering the trust to form an intimate relationship or to sustain existing ones. All this before the issues raised by a pregnancy that is the result of rape.
It is clear from his clumsy attempt to link the issue to abortion to rape that he cares nothing for the suffering of the woman. To him she is an incubator on legs. A vector for the entry pof children into the world. In his eyes, who cares how she gets pregnant. Once she is, she is nothing more than a delivery mechanism for the foetus. She is serving the only purpose he thinks any woman is fit for.
And as for;
I find it highly suggestive that he does not find rape shocking. Methinks that law enforcement should have a very close look at this guy, given that rape apologetics appear to be so close to his black, death-cult infested heart.
Wow, the article reads like something from the satirical website www.landoverbaptist.org
If you haven't yet discovered this website you owe it to yourself to check out the so-nutty-it-seems-real articles that appear there.
I went through an ugly divorce that left me with the entirety of a debt (that I did not rack up myself) that exceeded my annual income, and I lost the children I'd been raising because they were my stepchildren, not my biological children. It was a tragic time in my life, filled with psychological abuse from my ex. I spent nearly a decade working multiple jobs to pay back that debt, and I haven't seen the children even once during this whole time. It was terrible, and it had far-reaching implications.
I am also a rape victim. I was raped "nonviolently" by a man who was a friend of a friend. It was worse--by far--than my divorce.
@Viperfish and anyone else wondering what to do to help loved ones who have experienced this trauma, your love and support and a nonjudgmental ear are immensely helpful. One thing that has seriously set me off and fucked me up regarding my rape was when someone tried to compel me to (and then judged me for not) pressing charges. I understand that I am almost certainly not his only victim, and I understand that he will probably do it again. I don't want that to happen. But I just couldn't bring myself to face him and the horror that would be involved (he worked in law enforcement--it would've been ugly), and considering what I went through, I want that decision to be left to me. In fact, in the years since it happened, I've only ever told 3 people about it. Only one of them made that insistence, but it was enough for me to cut ties with that person for a while. We got over it eventually, but it took time.
NOTE: I'm NOT saying to never suggest pressing charges. I'm saying don't insist on it and don't try to coerce a victim into doing so. We're sensitive about having control taken away from us, usually.
KingUber;
The fact that you care so little about women while spouting pious nonsense about abortion being "murder" makes two things clear to me.
1)Your strong suit is ranting hyperbole, not rational thought.
2) Your misogyny is so deep-seated that you may never be able to function normally in society.
I would say I pity you, but I am more concerned with the well being of the women that people like you spend so much time and effort trying to depict as nothing more than sub-human 'breeders'.
That and the fact that you and all your pseudo-moralistic, misogynist ilk make me sick to the pit of my stomach.
I guess I'm not all that exalted as to deny myself the occasional revenge fantasy. As long as it stays fantasy.
However...
One of the standout moments of the aftermath of my assault was my then 5'9" maybe 125 lb. brother going bonkers when he saw my assailants being brought into jail, and two deputies having to drag him away before he killed the jerks, barehanded.
My black little heart just did a happy dance at that memory. It was doing a tarantella over it at the time. I'm not the least ashamed of it.
I'll live with myself somehow.
AnthonyK:
Oh yeah. There are a lot of assholes out there, and there's no shortage of them when it comes to therapy. Just hearing one stupid, inane and insensitive comment after a rape can have a stunning effect. It's bad enough, some of what you hear from the cops, the attorneys, even medical personnel sometimes. When the person who is supposed to be there solely to help you says stupid shit, it's bad.
@Aquaria(#407):
It is not so much the revenge fantasy as much as that I am afraid I lose the respect of the one person who managed to stay as friend.
And that is why I'm afraid that I will react the same as your brother did.
As one of the (now not) invisible eyes, I'd like to thank the Survivors for posting this thread.
As for fantasies of hurting the person, I don't have them.
For a long time I could not stand to smell Curve cologne though. I'd be standing some where and some one would walk by wearing it and I'd feel cold inside, trying to feel the area behind me with the hairs on my back, and I'd want badly to leave immediately. Inside my head the little narrating voice would begin giving me orders "Don't lower your eyes. To your left is a man in a yellow shirt. Don't turn to look at him but is anyone standing beside him? Is there anyone else here? Go stand near them but don't attract their attention too much. Left hand. It's shaking. Stop it now. When you passed them did they look as if they saw some one behind you? What direction did they look? Don't walk slower or faster, are you sweating? Don't sweat! Keep your pace, soft steps... what do you hear? ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE. HOW MANY STEPS TO THE DOOR THEN? If people see you're afraid they'll think something is wrong with you. Can you still smell it? Is it following you!?"
It took me a while to actually realize what brought it on, because honestly for a while he might have been there and he would find some way to make that day a bad day for me. He followed me for a year afterwards. I didn't realize I was smelling him.
My life didn't get better for a long time either, but that's yet another story. I let myself be treated badly for a long long time. I thought it was all my fault and that I was ruined as a human being. I was so grateful to my then bf for being willing to hang with me that I allowed him to lock me in his car once for several hours while he ran some errands because the people he was meeting would have been ashamed to meet me since they had been involved with the school and knew what had happened to me.
Yep.
I didn't even get out of the car. Not only that I hunched down so no one would see me because I knew it would look weird if I just sat in the car.
And he's not even the one that did all those things to me. But I huddled in an un-airconditioned car in a Texas summer for hours because I truly thought it would be too shameful for me to show my face. And people responded in kind. Treating me as they thought it was obvious I was meant to be treated. Until I started "proving" myself. Over achieving... working harder and harder. Everything. Completely. Perfect. No. Mistakes. Ever.
And then people treated me like my life must have been made of cake. Otherwise why would I have money and clothes and amazing grades and etc. Ha! From car-floor huddler to trophy girlfriend, what an achievement.
I ran into the person once. It was strange. It was during a high point in my overachieving wonder.
I was surrounded by pretty people who wanted to know who I knew (but not me) so I could not let my emotions show, and that protected me in that instant. It was an illusion, but a fortunate one, that protection.
I heard later that he had been addicted to speed for some time, that his life was a wreck, that he was homeless, that he looked 20 years older, that he had nearly died.
I don't care. I don't care to hurt him and I don't care to hear about him. I even wouldn't mind if he were happy and well, so long as I never have to deal with him again.
Yes. I understand. I tried fighting first and it came back on me hugely. By the time the correct people got involved I could not fight anymore. I was called a year or two later into a lawyer's office and I told the lawyer that I would not be a part of any lawsuit against the school.
He looked at me for a second and I just said.
"I can't deal with this."
I meant it. I could not. I never spoke about my past at all. Not until 2004, actually.
People can go ahead and call me weak and all I have to say to them is "you were not there when I needed some one so what business do you have telling me what I should have done?"
This thread has me in tears. It brings back so meany memories; that's part of it. But the other part is feeling the pain of the others who've shared (and probably quite a few who haven't).
About the long-term effect, let me go into a bit of background here:
I'm 67 years old. I've had time to see things resolve themselves. Or not.
My story, in brief: when I was 12, a bunch of local teenagers caught me and took me to a woodshed for a bit of recreational gang rape. They had me stripped and trembling when a couple of adult men happened to look in. The teenagers fled. The men looked at me, said nothing, and went out. I dressed and crept away.
I was lucky. But during the stripping part of it, one of the boys (the only one I knew) said, "What are you crying about? Your boyfriend says you do this all the time!" I didn't. Not even close. Seven years later, I was still angry.
I grew up and married a seminary student. He, at least would be safe; a good Christian man. I was wrong, and I knew it within the year. I stayed in the marriage, being the supportive pastor's wife for 17 years. It was the only thing to do as a sincere Christian. Divorce was sin. I was supposed to submit "as unto the Lord".
Most of our sex life was like someone has said upthread, quiet, non-dramatic, systematic rape. If I ever said no, I was beaten first and afterwards. It was better just to "think of England". Or Jesus, in this case. Besides, it was my duty as a Christian wife to please my husband, so says the apostle Paul.
Of course, there were the times when I awoke to find him on top of me. Not even the choice of beaten or not beaten, then.
When, a year after I had left, I was suicidal, I unloaded on a friend, a mature seminary student. He took me out to talk over drinks, got me drunk, and raped me. Great help that was!
Ok; how long did it take me to get over it?
Forever; otherwise, why would I be crying today?
But not quite, though. Mostly, it's now in the distant past. But it was 10 years before I could tolerate being touched, by anybody, even my poor kids. 10 years before I could talk to a man without an involuntary clenching at my gut. 20 years before I stopped being frightened if a man looked angry.
It was 30 before I could trust another man enough to consider a relationship. (I'm with a very good, gentle man now.)
My kids suffered, of course. They've had their issues, many of them caused by my isolation. Now, my oldest son is teaching his daughter self-defense strategies, telling her that grandma can throw an attacker across the room. I can; he's seen me do it. I learned too late, though. But I wish my son didn't think it was necessary to mention attack to a first-grader.
To the young ones in the aftermath of a rape, what can I say? It will always hurt, but it doesn't have to control your life forever. Give it time, and while you do, concentrate on becoming a whole person, yourself, not someone's idea of who you should be.
And never blame yourself; if you were young and naive, that's not a fault. That was then. You are responsible today for who you are today.
And you are never, ever, responsible for what another person does, no matter how you "provoked" them. Never.
I've financed 2 abortions in my life and I assure you her and I are totally over the idea that the blastocyst my sperm made.
I'm not quite as over the time I was anally raped by a camp counselor.
Well, this atheist doesn't use rape as an argument at all. I don't give a rat's ass about how a woman gets pregnant - if she doesn't want it, it's her right to get rid of it, period.
My argument is associated risk. The only moral way to have someone else take risks for you is by having their informed consent. Pregnancy always presents risks of disability and death. If a woman agrees to take the risks, fine. But you can't force her if you call yourself a moral person.
I'll consider the pro-life consistent and non-hypocritical the day they proudly announce that they would like to institute a forced organ- and blood donation policy - if you are a compatible organ donor and would survive the operation, you will be considered guilty of murder if you fail to do so.
The "personhood" of a foetus is irrelevant. It's status as a parasite which puts its mother at risk, and the importance of the mother's informed consent in taking that risk is the thing that makes me proudly pro-choice, in all circumstances.
Ol'Greg:
No, you aren't weak. You were strong enough to survive, that is what matters. Not everyone can handle the intensity of prosecution, especially when there's no telling whether or not there will be a positive outcome.
As for cues, it's parking lots and the smell of stale beer for me. Decades later, and I'm still surprised at just how intense my fear can be.
"As for cues, it's parking lots and the smell of stale beer for me. Decades later, and I'm still surprised at just how intense my fear can be."
For me it's the ring of a certain type of cell phone. He used to call me to harrass/keep tabs on me
Sounds a LOT like post-action justification to me. Any bets on whether this man has a criminal history including, perhaps, rape?
Like I said. Creepy section desperately needed.
ladyh42:
That's got to be difficult, given the amount of people running around with cellphones.
I don't really have it in me today to go through my own close-to-home experiences with rape and assault. But this thread reminds me that I should give my friend H. from high school a call. She dropped out of college about 5 years ago after being gang raped by most of the basketball team. She was drunk at the time, so when she went to the school administration, they told her that if she formally pressed charges, they'd be forced to kick her out for underage drinking.
I want her to know I'm thinking about her and I care. I still get physical upset and angry thinking about that specific case.
Btw, I don't find it all hard to believe the argument in the OP was made sincerely.
I've heard similar stuff come out of peoples' mouths plenty of times, in person. The anonymity of the internet doesn't just provide people with trolling opporutunities; it also provides people with the sense that they can finally speak their mind, make their arguments and thought experiments, without having to fear social alienation or sanction.
I'm not a Christian, but I admire some of what is attributed to Jesus and I'm going to try and act in an (actually) Christian way now.
I feel bad for whoever wrote this comment and I hope he gets some help. Trivializing rape to stop abortion, even if you think fighting abortion is a nobel cause, is a horrible thing. People all over the world are fighting, starving to death, writing mean comments about others on DirtyPhoneBook or whatever, and it's just wrong. You have to lift each other up and trivializing rape most definitely is not the way to go about this.
Personally I can understand (though disagree with) people who have strong opinions against abortion, but it's not something that would have EVER caused me to trivialize rape. My cousin got raped and its NO LAUGHING MATTER.
I believe in no gods. I do believe in evil. Walk away? No. I could not in good conscience walk away without at least considering driving a stake through this evil creature's heart. One can only hope that it has not reproduced.
i People can go ahead and call me weak and all I have to say to them is "you were not there when I needed some one so what business do you have telling me what I should have done?"
You weren't weak. The justice system can be damned hard to navigate; in the end, even I went for the plea bargain that would get me the guarantee of punishment, rather than going to the damned trial. All it took was one jury selection session to convince me that I didn't want to go there, not with those prune faced old cows squinting at me. But I took it to the fucking wire, to make the defense sweat. We were literally walking into the courthouse for the trial when I gave the DA the signal to get a good deal. He did.
She dropped out of college about 5 years ago after being gang raped by most of the basketball team. She was drunk at the time, so when she went to the school administration, they told her that if she formally pressed charges, they'd be forced to kick her out for underage drinking.
OMfG. What school was this?
@Caine, all the way back at #193
Thank you, and my sympathies to you as well.
It's really weird and screwed up, but a lot of the way I managed to move on was by telling myself that I had fought back to the best of my ability and that I had done my best to prevent it happening to me before hand (no drinking, didn't go out to clubs never mind alone, never walked alone after dark, etc). On one hand, I'm so thankful that I was able to devote the full force of my blame onto the sick twisted man who actively ignored my body and words. On the other, it's ridiculous that our societal treatment of rape is such that even someone who actively fights rape culture finds themselves mentally caught up in it.
I never pressed charges because his Mom worked in the administration for my program and he threatened to have me kicked out if I told anyone. The school therapist said she couldn't help me if I wouldn't press charges. I went to a private therapist for a few sessions but couldn't afford more and didn't want to deal with the psych department at a hospital (which would be covered, but again might require me to report my rape to be admitted). I went on, healing myself along the way and doubling my cautions. I can now get myself out of almost any hold, provided I'm not drugged or being strangled because I went and took a number of different self-defence classes. I never went anywhere private alone with another male until about two years ago, when I met my current boyfriend. Even now that we live together, we rent the basement out to his Mom, as much for my sense of security as to help her out financially.
I have recovered what seems to be incredibly well. I can have consensual sex, even in the position I was raped in. I am able to go into some "risky" situations now without being totally afraid. I now only carry my extendable walking stick when I'm walking my dogs alone, and that's as much to fend off unleashed dogs as it is to make me feel safe(r). I know many MANY victims have a much harder time recovering and moving past the various fears and issues their rape enhances or causes. Some victims can't even speak about what has been done to them and I am able to be a part of my campus campaign against sexual violence. I count myself among the lucky and really just hate the fact that I had to use the blame thinking I now fight so hard against in order to get by.
It was a state school! In NY!
I know, I know, it's outrageous. But I've heard similar stories. The my own alma mater was a Seven Sister and I still saw quite a few cases where the school admin took justice into its own hands rather than get authorities involved. Even in cases where state/fed law had been broken.
From what I can tell it's sadly common for schools to do things like this.
Puduck - No. Don't feel sorry for 95% of christian women. As a former better christian than Betty Bowers, the pope and Bill Donahue, I can assure you I lived by my own stupidity, and felt I deserved being lower than a dog turd due to original sin .
King Uber - Go back to your own holy babble buck-o. Gawd says it is a baby when it draws it's first breath and not before. Gawd also prefers abortions done with swords. As a christian, you suck.
Samantha:
*Nods* I took self-defense classes as well, but what actually made me feel safer was going to some friends who taught me how to fight dirty. I have never been without at least one knife on my person (one being very small, I can easily palm it) and I've owned very large dogs ever since and my rape was decades ago.
I'm generally okay going places with my husband, but I still don't care much for bars. I'm still very wary around any man I don't know well. Even if I know them well, I won't spend time alone with them.
Do you happen to use pepper spray, Caine?
Caine:
Interestingly, I've done very similar, only I carry sewing scissors instead of a knife, as that's borderline in terms of legality here. I also carry a spray mixture of vinegar, citrus juice and water rather than mace (again, trying to avoid potential legal issues).
It's kind of funny: my dogs are large (60 and 70lbs) and the bigger one is also black, which is apparently more intimidating, but neither are at all aggressive. When I originally was thinking of getting a dog, I wanted a Shepherd with protection training (this was only about 3 years after my rape) but I couldn't handle one on my own. I put off getting a dog and then stumbled across greyhounds: big enough and with some reputation for being aggressive hunting dogs, but in reality the biggest sucks ever. I've seen people (men included) turn back or get off the sidewalk when they see me walking my two, which is very reassuring, but I don't have to walk them a lot, which means that I don't have to leave my property after dark to exercise them.
I am in absolute awe of the strength, bravery, and beauty of some of the commenters here.
Of course believing in evolution, genetically speaking the principle behind the so called 'Christian' idea is absurd. It is basically espousing rape as a virtue and a successful means of reproduction with the continuation of the genetic line of a sociopath rapist so that future victims also can share the burden of involuntary forced violent impregnation with the risk of permanent injury or death.
The opposite should in fact be the logical principle where once it is confirmed that the fetus is the genetic produce of the rapist that abortion is the logical choice. Each and every pregnancy put's the mothers life at risk and, that choice should always be made by the person risking their life to bring the baby to term and, considering the genetic basis of the child long term risk is also inherent as psychopathy is a genetic trait which also puts the rest of society at risk.
Years ago I got myself some fairly high strength capsaicin solution ( I'll not say how as it is not available here unless under a special medical licence) and I carry that around in small, pump pack that used to have hairspray in it. It's strong enough to cause intense pain but, if an attacker is fit enough to chase after me so I have to use it, then odds are it's not going to cause him permanent damage.
I know it's illegal but I figure if I ever have to use it the bastard will have some fancy explaining to do if he wants to lay a complaint, as to why he got it in the face in the first place. Hell, I'll call the cops for him if he likes.
Shala:
I have pepper spray, I don't (and wouldn't) depend on it though. People have different tolerances, aim can be off and wind can cause more problems - and it's almost always windy here. I'm much more comfortable with specific fight moves and one of my knives.
Samantha:
As long as they're sharp. It's good to have something you can fit in a hand and close a fist around.
The important thing about having dogs is that they are visible and capable of making a fuckload of noise. No one can guarantee any dog won't bite or attack (especially if they see their owner being assaulted) so most men will steer clear of a woman with dogs. Mine are 70lbs, 100lbs and 120lbs. They'd have a fucking fit is someone was being aggressive with me. Matoska, the youngest (and biggest) is a monster, there's no reasonable explanation for his size (he's half white Shepherd and half Chow). He has a bark which has scared more than one adult male.
If I ever do have to go out after dark, they are most definitely with me.
Huh. I don't use many self-defense tactics or weapons except for being aware, using good sense and attitude, since I have never, and will never, have much physical strength. Yeah, I was the puny little girl who was given books about getting physical activity from bicycling and horseback riding, so that I didn't feel like such a weakling all the time.
I'm a bit stronger now that I'm older, but not much. Working out doesn't change this, and usually ends up causing injuries. I can walk in moderation, cycle and swim. That's about it.
Since I can't do much about my strength, I don't carry a weapon, because I am well aware of how easily it could be taken from me. Plus, I'm not paying $1350+tax for a Kimber Ultra-Carry TLE LG/RL only to have it used against me! Heck, my hand and arm can handle only two or three shots with a pistol before I have to lower my arm and then fire some more.
However, I do recommend the 900KV Streetwise stun gun, for those unafraid to zap a creep. It doubles as a flashlight and is about the size of the standard Marks-a-lot. No strap, but you can get creative. >:)
Aquaria:
Awareness, good sense and attitude go without saying, gotta have those. I made certain decisions after my rape (and a murder attempt some months prior. I was hitchhiking, boy, was that ever a fucking mistake). Anyway, if I ever find myself being dragged off again, someone is going to be seriously mutilated or dead. It doesn't take much to get close to someone's femoral artery, nor does it take any particular strength to open it. I have no desire to kill anyone but I won't go through it again.
Badgersdaughter: In case no one has ever told you this before, your reaction of shock was normal and "right." How they portray rape victims on TV has NO bearing on reality. It tricks people into thinking that if a person isn't frantic and out of control, they weren't really violated. NOT TRUE.
Rape is a life-threatening traumatic experience, and a victim's natural response is to tuck oneself (body and psyche) inward, not draw attention to oneself by screaming and crying.
Fuck. You ladies are armed? I can see why, now. I can also understand why you would be wary of walking home alone, even in an area you know well, without a companion.
Luckily, I think I've always understood that. At least I've never denied a friend, of whatever sex or age, the right to feel safe going anywhere, even though I might think their fears unfounded.
If I had, I'd feel a complete asshole right now.
Clearly there is more to fear than fear itself.
Okay, just a couple pertinent posts before I cease checking back on this thread.
1) I stated in my first comment on this thread that connecting rape with abortion was lunacy, and that I would not mention the former. I have no comments made nor to make on rape, but what I took from the original post was that Myers feels abortion is inconsequential.
2) I don't believe in any kind of god, etc. I do believe in the "inalienable right" of humans not to be murdered. At what point a zygote becomes a human, I am not sure. You all seem to think that the point that it is teased from the womb is THE big moment. I don't' I think that this is a ludicrously arbitrary argument, and one which all of you self-professed scientific wunderkind should be ashamed to propose. By extension, IMO, this argument would mean that I can with clear conscience close my eyes, raise my gun-arm, and fire an automatic weapon into a crowd of people. Because I can't see them, they're not really there.
3) You all really need to think about what this place is. I believe it to be a website promoting atheism (and squid), which allows people to comment freely behind a discrete drape. As such, I think it's really counter-productive to have a gang of regulars who jump upon anyone not sharing their own POV. Very much like the religious websites, regular commenters act like a kind of mindpolice force: everybody's welcome, but if they start expressing views contrary to ours, we will jump on them with batons. Have a look at the video of muslim religious police actions for a hint of how you are, really, behaving.
4) Again, I don't feel anybody has yet adequately answered the question: "At what point between zygote and birth does a baby/embryo/thing cease to be killable? As I said, the morning-after pill is a wonderful invention; it allows women to gain more control over their pregnancies. At this point, only a lunatic would argut that they are killing a person. I'm really interested in the developmental point at which this thing becomes a baby. Many of you shouted "birth!", but I think that this is ludicrous. It implies that a doctor should be able to enter a woman the day before her due date and chop the embryo up with impunity and moral righteousness.
5) Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments. Really, folks: argument by emotion should be the preserve of the religious.
6) Goodnight y'all, and I hope that you can learn to accept/ignore those commenters who disagree with you. Because, in the end, we're all just a bunch of blod-commenters pissing into the wind.
And if you think you're anything more, then you are really, seriously deluded.
No fuckwitted assclam, you have been answered. You just won't accept the answers since you can't as you are an anti-choice idjit, and that is to be expected by such idjits. Still the loser.
As if your inane questions weren't emotional, and emotionally loaded? They were. Look in the mirror. Loser.
Only if you present rational, not emotional arguments of your own. Which you didn't do. You also disagree simply to troll. That is loser behavior. If you want to be treated better, start with treating the regulars at this blog better. An apology for you past trolling is a good start. Also start with the concept we are smarter than you.
Where's that internet petition to invoke the banhammer?
just a couple pertinent posts
meaning, guaranteed not to be.
man, you just don't know when to STFU.
I can haz banhammer for you, plz?
@SlantedScience 438
Huh. Where did the woman go in this statement? You posit the woman involved here as an object to be "entered" by her doctor, not an actor who might have some ideas about what she would like to have happen to her body. This statement is ridiculous because what this doctor would be doing is already considered illegal and morally repugnant: performing a medical procedure without consent.
If consent is given, if the pregnant woman, who you seem to regard only as an incubator in this situation, then I see nothing wrong with this situation. Although in general, these procedures are called cesarean sections, since it would be nigh impossible to find a physician who would be willing to perform such a late term abortion.
Well gosh, I'm sorry that my actual personal experience of being raped interferes with your intellectual arguments. We stupid ladies should have known better than to "dredge the swamps of womanhood" with are silly arguments about how we are people and our emotions and experiences matter. We should have had a nice rational, distanced and intellectual conversation about what, for many of us, was the worst experience we could ever fucking imagine.
This is why your comments are misogynistic. You regard women as unimportant objects in the realm of reproductive rights and you demean women's emotions and experience as bog slime. This is true regardless of whether commenters here jump upon you or no.
I have a Great Pyrenes. He actually outweighs me, but he's so good on a leash that it's never been an issue. He's a big ol' teddy bear who loves nothing more than lounging around and being pet. He's never so much as growled at any friend of mine.
However, if he perceives a threat (and he's highly in tune with my feelings), his bark and growl are one of the scariest things you will ever hear.
Folks typically steer clear of me when I'm out with him (one, because he's so fucking huge, and two, because it's obvious that there's no way in hell I could hold him back if he went apeshit).
If I ever do have to go out after dark, they are most definitely with me.
"Release the hounds." *Mr. Burns*
I'm glad NoR beat me to the punch on ripping SlantedScience a new slant. Trolling in this kind of thread takes a special kind of wickedness.
How can you even sleep at night, SlantedScience? Do you have no conscience?
That should be "if the pregnant woman gives consent". Should not rage and type.
ss@438:
Dredge the swamps of womanhood. Nice. Womanhood is a swamp? If it is one, it's a formerly fertile and lovely land drowned and stinking under the spit and piss of the contempt of millions of emotional vandals just like you.
chgo_liz@436:
I never thought of it that way. It explains a lot about how the women in my family react to things. My grandmother is terribly suspicious and cold, but if you are on the short list of people she truly cares for, her real self comes out and she is a fierce advocate, a boundlessly understanding source of support, wise and good and sweet. I know she's been through more hell than she'll ever tell me. She found a good man later in life, when she was a single mother with two teenage kids. My step-grandfather Bob Weber was, and is, her and my paradigm for what a truly good man is and does, but I've never met anyone like that again.
dredging the swamps of womanhood
what a creepy little assclam it is.
*shudder*
I vote that single statement be the reason he gets forever immortalized in the dungeon.
Slanted Science, here is a calm, unemotional response. Take the hint and fuck off!
I guess I must live in a really safe place compared to everyone else. I'm frequently out and about at night, even on foot, and I'm safe, or as safe as can be.
I'll be damned if I'll let the monsters win by giving up my freedom.
SStroll, are you fucking for real? Women who dare to speak out about the horrors they've faced are the swamp of womanhood?
I've had enough of this shitstain.
Die fucker.
One of my not-quite friends was raped when she was 5 by her uncle. She only got the courage to go to the police last year. The damage he exacted on her has manifested in quite spectacular ways. I told my parents in shocked and my father and my mother thought she was joking or lying. I was wracked with shock and outrage at their reaction.I can't believe what would make them think like that. Rape is not a laughing matter. Also, as a political type, suggested legislation?
free rape kits, cautions for police who act aggressively to rape victims, injunctions on tabloids, ...?
Jebus but we have had enough of these christian assclams.
BlueMonday:
I find that to be a highly reassuring quality in a dog. :D It's the same way with my Shepherd/Chow, that boy could drag me without feeling it if he wanted.
Nepenthe (quoting IdiotSStroll):
*raises eyebrow* Well, excuse the fuck out of us for daring to air our smelly swamp experiences, eh? You fucking slimy, sleazy, rotten excuse for a human being, you should be banned for this, if not for anything else. Take your particularly nasty trolling back to your empty blog.
*drops the rolling pin*
If you ever see a 30ish, bespectacled redhead with weird taste in sweaters nearby on the street, I fucking dare you to say anything like what you said above. Knitting needles can be used as deadly weapons and I can make it look like self-defense. Go ahead and say that to someone's face, you ass-sniffing cum-stain. See what happens.
"Have a look at the video of muslim religious police actions for a hint of how you are, really, behaving."
Oh look, another asshole who confuses words on a screen with literal violence. I remember when you first raised your head here and insulted everyone right off the bat. So you can take your concern and your misogyny and your bullshit hypotheticals and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.
AnthonyK:
And that's appreciated. Probably more than you'll ever know.
Aquaria:
I haven't given up my freedom. I often walk at night - with my dogs. I live in a very safe place now, probably the safest I've ever lived. I also live in an isolated place and it doesn't pay to be stupid.
I'll be damned if I'll let the monsters win by giving up my freedom.
reminds me; I meant to post this yesterday.
http://www.takebackthenight.org/history.html
SlantedScience, if womanhood is a swamp, let that be the swamp that taps itself for a black mana that pays for a dark ritual used to pay for another dark ritual which turns into a hatred spell, paying 19 life to make a 20/20 raging goblin that kills you instantly.
Or in non-Magic: The Gathering terms, please go away. Now.
Okay, I read the link, loosely skimmed comments and did not see what I caught, and wondered about.
I was trying to find out who he was quoting? With that much to say, I kinda want to know who is being quoted.
Ah, I see Slanty-Troll, having tried and failed to derail the thread earlier, comes back in even more stomach-churning form to scream for attention. Because all these incubators dragging up emotion from the swamp of womanhood, well won't anyone think of the babies **faints clutching pearls***
Well, SS you can take your intellectually vapid morally bankrupt trolling and...
...sideways ...with the obligatory sharp implement/ optical instrument.
To the real people who shared some truly horrific experiences and still show so much humanity and grace - you have my admiration and gratitude for sharing. Ah, humanity - now that's something I could have faith in!
What's creepy is that neither the christian's comment nor any of the reader responses will do a damn thing to fix any of the evils blind religion has wrought. I'm sorry, peaceful coexistence with 'devout' people of any faith simply isn't possible for me. I have no use for any of them.....the people or their religion. I enjoy reading Pharyngula but no amount of blogging is going to fix anything either. No dialogue, no open discussion, no agreement to disagree.....it is time for militant atheism. eff the gods and their followers; we'd be vacationing on Mars by now without those speed bumps.
Yeah, Ichthyic, why don't we analyze that little statement of his a moment? how many ways is it wrong?
"Womanhood," because he can't wrap his pea brain around the fact that men are raped also. Because obviously if a man is degraded by rape, it's just like turning him into a woman.
"Swamps" because it's dark and ugly and hot and stinky and uncivilized, unlike the bright shiny leaders of civilization whose gender he shares.
And "dredging" because we have to really work hard to come up with the filth with which we roil the placid, limpid waters of decency.
PZ, for fuck's sake get rid of this assclown.
Yeah, Ichthyic, why don't we analyze that little statement of his a moment? how many ways is it wrong?
it's not just wrong...
it's...
*slimy*
again...
*shudder*
I don't think i could look someone who said those words in the face.
puke on their shoes, maybe...
...seriously, was he TRYING to see if he could actually come up with a creepier statement than the one that started this thread??
'cause in my mind, he's come pretty close.
I've never been raped, but I was assaulted several years ago. I walked away uninjured, but I still don't like hearing footsteps coming up behind me. I always have to look over my shoulder and see who's coming, sometimes have to get out of the way lest he might get ideas. As if my merely stepping out of the way is going to prevent an attack, but the trigger is still there. It's the reason why I can't join my dad in jogging around the lake.
For the first couple weeks after the assault, I couldn't even go downstairs to the laundry room without bringing a steel knitting needle with me and getting in and out as quickly as possible. It was totally bizarre, as I wasn't assaulted in the laundry room, it was out on the street on the way home from my parents' house. (And it wasn't a sketchy street, either; the police detective who took my statement was floored that I was attacked in that neighborhood. I had a reasonable expectation of safety.) But whenever I was somewhere that wasn't locked securely in my apartment, in my car, at work or with my family, I felt like my assailant might see me and finish what he started. Which was never entirely clear; I still don't know whether he was trying to rape me or just wanted what was in my purse.
By the time I got back from my two years abroad, I didn't mind doing laundry or walking around the neighborhood in daylight, but I still don't like footsteps behind me. I can totally believe that a lot of people have to quit school and/or turn down jobs after rape. I would probably respond in much the same way.
alysonmiers - See what happens.
Go ahead, say it to my face you ass-sniffing cum-stain...
Yep.
from the last line of the original post:
You're out of touch and trying to make a big deal out of something just for shock value.
from slantyslimer:
my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments.
hmm.
I see distinct parallels in mindset.
So I lied. I came back. What do I find? A bunch of idiots misreading and misquoting my words.
Obviously, because this is Pharyngula. It's what you do.
My words were: "Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments."
The swamp thing was a...well, I don't know what the vocabularistic term is. Whatever.
Point is, people have taken my words as being associated with the rape/abortion/religion subject matter of the original story. I've explained clearly, a couple of times, that I have nothing to say about rape. Nothing.
My comments have been solely concerned with abortion and its profligate, state-sanctioned use in the US and other countries.
If you have anything of worth to add to the debate on abortion, then please comment further.
If you just want to make out that I'm somehow commenting on rape, women, or some other personal obsession, then please...well, I dunno, See a psychiatrist?
A life begins when the fetus is outside the body.
The end!
Now fuck off.
DUH. You aren't a truthteller.
And we soundly refuted your alleged arguments. Emotional arguments. Just like you accused the ladies of. Not rational.
Good advice for you. You need help. And a muzzle.
SlantedScience StupidShithead wrote:
I'm sorry, I thought this was Pharyngula. How did we all end up on your blog where you call the shots?
Fucking idiot.
Again, my friends: I am off to bed. May you sleep well and gain some tolerance as you do so.
Because, for sure, your lack of that resource is becoming tiresome.
Yes we are aware that you want to talk about that but THIS IS NOT THE THREAD FOR THAT DISCUSSION.
Christ on a fucking corndog, do you LISTEN to yourself?! GET OUT. GO. NOW. LEAVE.
So I lied. I came back.
BAN
-FUCKING-
HAMMER!!
So the topic of "women" is distinct from the topic of "abortion," as is the topic of "rape"? Women (and some trans men) certainly aren't the only people who might have an abortion and women are never raped and then have need of an abortion. Thus, it's silly to talk about those topics as if they were somehow linked. Anyone trying to link those subject, as if you were posting in a thread primarily about women and rape, are just meanie heads trying to make you look bad. Am I following you?
Typical misogynistic bullshit.
I vote for the banhammer for the sanctimonious SS.
Fixed it for you idjit fuckwit.
Another fix. Your lack of any resources beyond stoopidity has been tiresome all along. Here's an idea. Quit showing your stupidity by not opening your mouth, and deleting us from your bookmarks.
Slanty-Troll
I think the term you are looking for is 'Freudian-slip'.
In a thread the subject of which is rape, which is full of the impact of that ugly and violent act - so you were thinking only of those myriad abortions that are given to women in stable situations purely for their convenience - seriously, what planet are you from?
Go Away - you pollute this place!
Good advice for you.
man, but these assclams do have a tendency to project, don't they?
SlantedScience,
Apparently SS took the title of this post as a challenge.
Ichthyic:
I could. I'd love to see that asstard face to face with a rape survivor and say that. He'd be walking all kinds of funny for a while.
alysonmiers:
but I still don't like footsteps behind me.
I'm not crazy about that one either. Living rural now, it's not something I hear often though.
SlantedScience StupidShithead wrote:
I could try to list those qualities that you lack, but it'd take too long. Instead, here's a list of the worthwhile qualities you do appear to possess:
.
.
.
Nope, I can't think of one.
As that is the case, feel free to go fuck yourself sideways with a rusty chainsaw, you stupid fucking clown shoe. There isn't another ignorant, pathetic cumstain more deserving of being banned than you, and when PZ puts you in the dungeon I'll laugh with joy.
So it's stupid to go out at night without dogs?
Really?
Well, then, I'm just a fucking moron, because I do it all the time. I don't have much choice. I often have to ride buses when it's dark, and I can't keep a pack of dogs with me when I'm having to go to work. I can't carry spray because the winds here are too unpredictable, weapons aren't allowed on buses or federal property, and I'm not strong enough to hang onto a knife or scissors if someone tries to take them from me.
Am I supposed to quit my job and cower at home in terror rather than face the world on my own?
Well, fuck that. I may not be strong or guarded or armed, but I'm overflowing with mean and cunning.
I'm not going to own a bunch of dogs, anyway. I don't wish them harm, but the further away they are from me, the better.
So it's stupid to go out at night without dogs?
I don't think that was what was meant.
Aquaria:
For me, yes. For you or anyone else, no. I was talking about the specific place I live, which is isolated, therefor there's no reason [for me] to be stupid. I'm 52 with a fucked up back, so running fast, vaulting and climbing aren't things in my arsenal anymore.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
So, are we to assume that "SlantedScience" has no, and feels no reason to give sympathy or comfort to rape victims, and feels that abortion is far more heinous than being raped, or allowing a pregnant woman or girl to die from a potentially fatal condition caused by or being aggravated by pregnancy?
Are we to assume that "SlantedScience" is upset by the fact that a 9 year old rape victim from Brazil had an abortion because she would most likely die if she were to have attempted to carry her twins to full term?
Or, are we to assume that "SlantedScience"'s comment about "swamp of womanhood" that he does not consider women, in general, to be human?
SlantedScience, while I think your words have been misconstrued, I also think that it's a byproduct of the anger directed at you for derailing a thread like this one.
"I was raped too, this is my story..."
"Wow that is truly awful..."
"Yes that is evil, our sympathies..."
[A loud burst of microphone feedback is heard as SoundScience grabs the microphone.]
"Hey everyone, this is a great time to discuss my pet argument about abortion!"
SlantedScience, please lay off.
Trey Cheotomy:
SS is a troll and this isn't the first fucking time he's brought up the same stupid arguments/questions. He's repeatedly derailed threads with this crap.
Or, are we to assume that "SlantedScience"'s comment about "swamp of womanhood" that he does not consider women, in general, to be human?
frankly, after months of his spew, most of us I think are past caring WHAT the motherfucker thinks.
SlantedScience sounds suspiciously like the banned troll Bilbo, what with the way he wanks off on blaming other people for the fact that he's a sanctimonious asshole of a troll who deliberately baits people with his assholery.
SS is way past the Kayne West level of asshatitude.
I'm 52 with a fucked up back, so running fast, vaulting and climbing aren't things in my arsenal anymore.
Oh, honey, tell me about it. It was bad enough not being strong to begin with, but now so much of it is breaking down.
Aquaria, yeah, the breakdown factor is not fun. I was athletic when I was young, but boy, those days are long gone.
I, I am beyond words. I can not express myself in words to describe this persons comment.
I am not sure as to the gender of the author, but either way, this person needs help. She almost sounds like the mother in the original movie "Carrie".
I would not call myself a Christian nor would I express myself as an atheist. My view on abortion has nothing to do with religion, just choice. I am a male, and I could not imagine the suffering and torment, not to mention the shear terror that a woman would go through if raped. The feeling of helplessness and violation she would experience would be enough not to want to remember the atrocious event.
What sounds like the idiotic ramblings of Zealot is probably the suppression of a molested female child who has grown up in a incestuous home, and is now repressing the guilt by belittling such a crime.
If the author is a male, then he is possibly repressing a strong sexual fantasy to rape and dominate a female, but has turned to his misguided scriptures to suppress the feeling. he has tried to reach out to the masses, hoping to vilify his perverse fetish in hopes that someone will agree with him and give him a possible imagined permission to carry out his fantasy, possibly on his own daughter, or a young family member or a child that his children know. Either way, she? needs therapy, and he? needs to be on an registered sex offender watch list before it's too late and he uses his God to commit a heinous act against a female. he also beats his wife and justifies her pain he inflicts because the pain he inflicts on her, she can endure because she is a "Strong Christian" woman, and the pain she suffers at his hands is nothing compared to what the "Lord" suffered on the cross.
Just Thinking.
First, I would like to thank those who have come forward to share their experiences here. My heart hurts for you, and for the number of other victims who must be silently reading.
I'm not ready to talk about my experiences in detail here, in part because it's not possible to be completely anonymous. However, given the unusual number of commenters on Pharyngula who are from my home state of North Dakota, combined with the fact that so many of you have so bravely chosen to be open about your lives, I'd like to request advice. I need to find a decent therapist, and I'm very afraid of the process. Part of the reason for my fear is that I have social anxiety and trust problems. The other part is that I am a submissive, and I have chosen to make this a large part of my sexual and personal identity. I absolutely do not want to stop being a submissive, nor would I be in any way compatible with a therapist who was opposed to it. Can anyone give me suggestions as to how to go about finding a good therapist here without experiencing too many letdowns?
I'm sorry if this is a derail.
I am not sure as to the gender of the author
it's a "he", you can find out by following the link to see the rest of their commentary.
http://www.iamanatheist.com/blog/2010/05/13/rape-not-so-bad-2/
that's him.
I’m praying for you all.
so's that.
Well I am an ex christian who has seen the light. I have also been raped. This rape did not end in a pregnancy. You don't ever get "over" a rape, it stays with you, haunts you and can destroy your life. I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't raped up the ass so I don't know that the pain is comparable.
I am a prochoice proud atheist.
"I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape."
Why? Because (in general) divorce happens to men and rape happens to women, therefore divorce MUST be more painful than rape because men are to be pitied and women are not?
http://www.iamanatheist.com/blog/2010/05/13/rape-not-so-bad-2/
Wow....