Poor, poor pitiful Andy (Wakefield): Dissed again, this time by the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care

Poor Andy Wakefield.

Beginning in the late 1990s until around six years ago, Andy was the premiere "vaccine skeptic" in the world. His 1998 case series published in The Lancet linking bowel problems in autistic children to the measles vaccine, the one where in the paper itself he was careful not to blame the MMR vaccine for autism but elsewhere was not so shy, launched a campaign of fear and loathing for the MMR vaccine that continues to this day. In his heyday, Wakefield was quite the figure, showing up on the media everywhere, treated with undeserved respect by much of the tabloid press and downright reverence by the antivaccine movement. (Indeed, Age of Autism founder J.B. Handley once famously referred to Wakefield as our "Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one." Of course, thanks largely to the efforts of Brian Deer, the wheels came off a five years ago. That year, Wakefield lost his license to practice and his (in)famous case series in The Lancet was retracted, as it had been demonstrated rather conclusively that Wakefield had committed scientific fraud in that study. Even the antivaccine quack mill Thoughtful House, where Wakefield had reigned supreme as chief antivaccine autism quack couldn't take it any more, and its board of directors rather unceremoniously gave him the boot.

Of couse, since then, Wakefield has done pretty well for himself, remaining a figurehead adored by credulous antivaccine activists, a veritable hero. He was still flown to antivaccine conferences in nice hotels in places like Jamaica. He still manages to live quite a comfortable lifestyle, in part thanks to the generosity of of the deep pockets behind the antivaccine movement, as reported by CNN, in part thanks to his Strategic Autism Initiative. Another times, he exploited the tragedy of the murder of an autistic boy, Alex Spourdalakis, in a most shameful fashion.

So, two days ago, when I saw this story, I couldn't believe it:

Andrew Wakefield, the British researcher who was made famous by his 1998 study that linked autism to a childhood vaccine, is coming to Salem next month to testify before the Legislature, a health care lobbyist confirmed Tuesday.

The Senate Committee on Health Care is exploring a bill, sponsored by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Beaverton, that would ban parents from claiming nonmedical exemptions from their children's school immunizations.

By the time I saw the story, it was too late to blog about it for yesterday; so I put it in the hopper for today. However, two days ago, I did blog about the Oregon bill to which the article refers. The bill, SB442, was originally intended to clarify the procedure for parents to get non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. However, in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak consideration was being given to amending the bill to eliminate non-medical exemptions altogether. As I pointed out, the very fact that a state like Oregon, which is a hotbed of antivaccine activity (J. B. Handley, for instance, lives there) would even consider such a bill, is a sea change in attitude in the wake of continuing measles outbreaks.

Of course, antivaccine activists weren't going to take this lying down, and they didn't. J.B. Handley, for instance, submitted testimony to the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care on February 18. Not surprisingly, he pulled out the same old tropes that I've seen him using over the decade that I've been blogging and since I first encountered him: "too many too soon"; argument by package insert; the pharma shill gambit; and, of course, the antivaccine dog whistle that ties vaccine "choice" to parental rights and freedom.

Still, I couldn't understand why on earth anyone would think that tarting up old, discredited Andy Wakefield, flying him up to Oregon, and plopping him in front of the Senate Committee on Health Care would serve the cause of "vaccine choice." I mean, seriously. Is there any "vaccine skeptic" currently more discredited than Andrew Wakefield in the mind of the public? Sure, there are actually more despicable antivaccinationists, but few people have heard of them. Wakefield, on the other hand, is famous, but he's famous because he's a discredited fraud who did antivaccine research for money. Brian Deer showed us that. And there are many victims. I know that Wakefield's visit was arranged by the Oregon Chiropractic Association, but I didn't think that even chiropractors were so deluded to think that a discredited fraud like Wakefield would help their case. In fact, when I first heard of the story, I was almost happy. The more quacks and cranks antivaccinationists trotted in front of the committee, the better. What better way for them to shoot themselves in the foot, to self-immolate? I was even thinking of suggesting more cranks to testify, such as Mark and David Geier or Christopher Shaw. Heck, why not get Sharyl Attkisson?

Oh, wait. I had heard it through the grapevine that others scheduled to testify included Tetyana Obukhanyeh, PhD., and Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD.

Sadly, my anticipation of the spectacle of Andrew Wakefield testifying was not to be. Yesterday, many of you sent my way this story:

Oregon legislators have canceled a meeting to discuss a bill that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions from Oregon's school immunization law, after it became clear that a controversial vaccine researcher who linked the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine with autism was planning to testify.

The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet and refuted by subsequent studies, was planning a trip to Salem to testify against Senate Bill 442.

He said in a phone interview on Wednesday that he objected to allegations made by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, the bill's sponsor, that he committed scientific fraud in his research.

Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.

Poor, poor pitiful Andy! He's so toxic that the very mention of his potentially showing up to testify can shut down a legislative committee informational meeting. I don't believe it for a minute when Anderson claimed:

Monnes Anderson said her decision did not have anything to do with Wakefield's intentions to testify.

The March 9 meeting will only take invited testimony from constitutional law experts who will weigh in on the legality of SB 442, she said. During a work session, committee members can tweak the bill as well as vote on it.

Come on. Does Anderson really think her constituents are that stupid? Maybe she does. In any case, I'm torn by this decision. On the one hand, it would have been grand entertainment to see Andy trotted out in front of the committee to spew his usual brand of antivaccine misinformation, and I bet that he would not have been particularly impressive, old fraudster that Deer showed him to be. In fact, I rather suspect he would have inadvertently helped the cause of eliminating non-medical exemptions in Oregon. After all, what better weapon would those supporting the bill have than to be able to attach the name of someone as disreputable as Andrew Wakefield to opposition to SB442? On the other hand, there would have been a chance that letting him testify would have actually elevated him, made him less disreputable. In any event, my guess is that Anderson saw that letting Wakefield testify would turn her committee's "informational event" into a media circus. No, strike that. It would have turned it into a circus. So she wisely canceled, because Wakefield is just that toxic.

My only consolation in this is that antivaccinationists seem to be their own worst enemies. As I said before, anyone with an ounce of political savvy would have realized that letting someone like Andrew Wakefield testify, someone who is (1) famous, (2) discredited, and (3) highly disreputable, testify is the same thing as putting his face on the opposition. There's no way this could have ended well for antivaccinationists. In fact, the chiropractors and antivaccine "health freedom" types who pushed to get Wakefield on the list of people giving testimony should thank Monnes Anderson profusely for saving themelves from themselves.

They won't, of course, They are just that deluded as to believe that having Wakefield's chance to testify yanked hurt them. But, hey, according to news reports, Wakefield wants to hold a town hall meeting in Portland. Somehow, I doubt that will go very well, either. After all, remember what happened the last time Wakefield tried to have a "town hall" meeting to protest to what he viewed as a pro-vaccine provocation. "Pitiful" doesn't begin to describe it.

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He was invited by Oregon Chiropractors - just more evidence of how anti-science (and anti-vaccine) they are.

A. Andrew Wakefield can appear reasonable and convincing to those who do not know his record, as long as he doesn't let himself go, as in the Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot video. But he has that record, that's very easy to point to.

B. I hope Oregon legislators remember, nonetheless, that these people were offering, as their main witness, a man found guilty of serious ethical violations with a documented history of less-than-dubious credibility.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

I'm actually shocked that J.B. Handley was allowed to testify. This is someone who has no scientific credentials to speak of and has often been laughably wrong about vaccines, And that doesn't even get into his very public bullying (including threats of legal action) against anyone who disagrees with him.

There's nothing in J.B.'s testimony that you couldn't get from spending a half-hour perusing any anti-vax website, and the Oregon Senate, by allowing Handley to address them, elevated him to someone with credibility to speak on the topic. I find that almost as offensive as Andy Wakefield nearly getting to speak in front of them.

A legislative hearing isn't a scientific forum. One of its appropriate goals is to allow affected citizens to voice their point of view. Mr. Handley is an affected citizen, and letting him testify was the right thing.

The committee treating him as a scientific source would be an error, and it's more than fair to point out the problems in his claims, but of all forums, a legislative policy making process is one that should be open and inclusive in hearing views. However extreme and unfounded.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Well, whilst there might be no debate scientifically, there clearly is politically. By not having the various anti-vax proponents testify surely there is the danger of these people asserting that their voice wasn't heard and generally feeding into their persecution complex.

Much better would have been a public detailed examination of Wakkers - unless these legislaors though tthey wern't up to it!

Oregon seems poised to become the go-to state for quackery. I'm interested but not entirely surprised to see chiropractors stirring the pot on this. Does anyone know if there are any national chiro organizations with position statements on vaccines?

By c0nc0rdance (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Dorit it correct. Legislative hearings serve the function of allowing the public to have a say on matters that affect them. Not all testimony is created equally nor does it have equal impact. Legislators are savvy to those offering testimony with an axe to grind.

There is this collections of positions.
http://www.acatoday.org/level2_css.cfm?T1ID=10&T2ID=117

"Resolved, that the American Chiropractic Association (ACA) recognize and advise the public that:
Since the scientific community acknowledges that the use of vaccines is not without risk, the American Chiropractic Association supports each individual's right to freedom of choice in his/her own health care based on an informed awareness of the benefits and possible adverse effects of vaccination. The ACA is supportive of a conscience clause or waiver in compulsory vaccination laws thereby maintaining an individual's right to freedom of choice in health care matters and providing an alternative elective course of action regarding vaccination. (Ratified by the House of Delegates, July 1993, Revised and Ratified June 1998)."

He said in a phone interview on Wednesday that he objected to allegations made by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, the bill’s sponsor, that he committed scientific fraud in his research.

Maybe he should threaten a defamation suit instead.

@Narad: he still might.

By Dorit Reiss (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Narad and Dorit:

Seriously- what else does he have?

I mean other than the estate, the entourage and the legion of adoring acolytes?
Maybe money in the bank, stocks, bonds,..
Poor Andy!

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Perhaps Wakefield can establish a new "Center for Legislative Integrity" and use the contributions that he solicits from his adoring fans to pay himself a salary as its director.

Well, he currently doesn't have any outstanding lawsuits to solicit money, and he's been rather unsuccessful in raising funds for his documentaries....I have no idea what he has left up his sleeve.

Seriously- what else does he have?

Well, there's the ORI complaint, which has likely been filed appropriately.

Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.

Do we know Sen. Anderson's views on the subject? IOW, is she opposed to the bill and thought (likely correctly) that having Wakefield testify would strengthen the pro side? Or does she favor the bill, and suspect that some of her fellow senators might fall for Wakefield's schtik? Gresham is in the Portland area, and IIRC Portland is an anti-vax hotbed, but I don't know if Gresham is one of the suburbs that attracts well-off granola types (as Marin County does in the Bay Area).

By Eric Lund (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Eric, like I said elsewhere, Andy may be our un-intentional ally- at least to the general public's ear- what he says and his presence alone- may strengthen the SB position.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Is it realistic at this point for Wakefield complain about allegations of fraud, as if the fraudulent nature of the Lancet publication had not been demonstrated?

Such sessions are generally open to the public. Were others denied their chance to speak for 3 minutes because this session was cancelled on account of Wakefield? And how much damage could Wakefield have done when lumped in with dozens of other speakers, all getting the same allotted time?

But now...Surely Wakefield and his supporters are going to make a lot of hay about cancelling this session because of him -- it is mana from heaven for the anti-vaxers. Especially in Portland where Wakefield townhall meetings are being planned by the chiros.

Orac. it seems, will never learn...

By Linda Rosa RN (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Do we know Sen. Anderson’s views on the subject?

She's a cosponsor.

I don’t know if Gresham is one of the suburbs that attracts well-off granola types (as Marin County does in the Bay Area).

No. It's basically just a big, bland place with no real distinguishing characteristics at all. The only good thing about it is that it's on a MAX line.

I heard Wakefield speak at a medical postgraduate meeting.

He may be deluded and a fraud; he had been successful because he is a skilled and persuasive rhetoritian. Even if you are very knowledgeable and aware of the falsity off his arguments he'll beat you in a debate unless you're also a skilled debater. Don't underestimate him. He's too dangerous to dismiss lightly.

By Peter English (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

J.B. Handley, for instance, testified in front of the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care on February 18.

He appears to have submitted written testimony (PDF, pp. 36–43, although he himself seems to have been unable to put together a PDF, hence the scan).

In repeatedly using the phrase "the free world," he fails to document his claims; I've already posted the Israeli schedule, for example – he changes how he "counts" as convenient.

It's a small committee, and my sense from some brief email communications with several members is that most if not all are favorable to the bill.

I'm not sure where the suggestion to have an additional public input session on vaccine safety information originated, but it seems that they received enough feedback to realize that it was a counterproductive idea. The work session on March 9 will now only deal with constitutionality of the bill, and the only speakers will be the invited contributors with Con Law expertise.

SB 442 not only proposes to end non-medical exemptions, but also seeks to clarify the definition of what medical conditions qualify for exemptions. This last bit is just as important as the first. Right now in Oregon personal exemptions are ridiculously easy to get. One only has to 'watch' a video to obtain an exemption certificate, and by 'watch', I mean, 'let it play in the background, give it an occasional prompt until it finishes, and then print out your certificate'. But, even if this option goes away, there are still many 'vax-choice' docs afoot, some of whom are already declaring that they will "find a way to get you a medical exemption if that's what it comes to".

Thus, it seems particularly important to clarify the kinds of medical conditions that qualify so that these docs can't just substitute one loophole for another.

By Jen Phillips (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Calling Andy Wakefield as your expert witness on vaccination policy is akin to calling Bernie Madoff as your expert witness on financial investments.

My only hope when I saw that article was that some of the local Oregonian pro-vaccine advocates would provide the lawmakers with the pertinent information on Wakefield so he could provide an hilarious exhibition of hubris as did Dr. Oz when grilled by Sen. Claire McCaskill.

@Reality--
The lawmakers who co-sponsored the bill are well aware of Wakefield's history--Senator Steiner is the one he's pissed at for calling his work 'fraudulent'. Note also that he was not "called him in to testify". He was summoned by private groups and lobbyists to contribute to continuing public comments for and against the bill during the upcoming Health Committee Work Session. There's no Q&A there--no 'grilling'--just an opportunity to read something into the record.

By Jen Phillips (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

"Well, he currently doesn’t have any outstanding lawsuits to solicit money, and he’s been rather unsuccessful in raising funds for his documentaries"

Don't be so sure about that. Not all money comes from indigogo (where he failed to raise much money). Recognize any names of wealthy people in this screenshot from "who killed Alex Spourdalakis"?

https://lbrbblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/donors-to-who-killed-alex-…

By Matt Carey (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

#4: "A legislative hearing isn’t a scientific forum. One of its appropriate goals is to allow affected citizens to voice their point of view. Mr. Handley is an affected citizen, and letting him testify was the right thing."

So what was Wakefield's standing? How is he affected by an Oregon law? What are his scientific credentials to speak knowledgeably about vaccines?

As an aside, has anyone else seen a questionable ad asking "Should children be forced to vaccinate?" from a place called Easy Health Options? Now I don't know that place from Adam, but it sure sounds susspect. I think Orac needs to look into it and tear it a new one. Anyone else think so?

@Ken--
like a lot of state-level issues, people are using this one to push a national agenda. We went through this even more intensely when we had a GMO labeling initiative on the ballot last November (which failed narrowly). Anti-GMO speakers/debaters from of out of state came on the run for various speaking engagements and debates to support the measure. Even the 'No on 92' campaign was run by an out of state org.

By Jen Phillips (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Oh, definitely. When right-to-try came to Michigan, many of those who testified were Goldwater Institute flacks flown in from Arizona.

@lucario#28- I've been clicking the report as inappropriate option on those.

No way I'd let my kids vaccinate. Well, maybe my daughter-at 6, she can already sew and use scissors so she could probably give a flu shot. But the boy, nope, not on your life.

Next step in Oregon-figure out where this new governor is at on immunizations. The yoga practitioner thing already has me a little nervous.

Mark my words: Mr. Handley will probably spin this as, "the other side suppressed Andrew Wakefield's testimony; they were afraid to let him be heard."

"By not having the various anti-vax proponents testify surely there is the danger of these people asserting that their voice wasn’t heard and generally feeding into their persecution complex."

"Mr. Handley will probably spin this as, “the other side suppressed Andrew Wakefield’s testimony; they were afraid to let him be heard.”

This is pretty much what we can expect.

A better committee response would have been to reject Wakefield's appearance, while inviting any non-fraudulent antivax proponent with scientific credentials and published research respected in the medical community to testify.
Then, after an embarrassing period of dead silence, they could get on with their bill.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

@ Matt #26

The Dwoskins are friends and major supporters of Bill and Hill. Their influence was probably responsible for Hillary's little nod to the anti-vaxers in '08. But with the GOP all lining up for 'parents rights' 'medical choice' and FREEDUMB, and HRC likening anti-vaxers to flat-earthers on Twitter, the Dwoskins aren't gonna touch Andy Wakefield with a ten-foot pole. I think they'll have to cut their sizable contributions to Generation Rescue too. Al Dwoskin probably gets an ambassadorship if he and Claire play nice, and they get blackballed from Washington parties if they don't.

After the election, the Dwoskins might away with sliding a little cash towards whatever new media-voice RFKJ's dug up, but with Trace Amounts he's already scraping the bottom of the filmmaking barrel.

Andy could still find some wing-nut bazillionaire whale, I suppose, but if wanted to pimp the 'parents rights / vaccine freedom' take a la Rand Paul, I could find scores of better spokespersons than Andy Wakefield.

We're way past 'proving vaccines cause autism'. Vaccines cause everything, because the parents say so. And it doesn't matter if they're wrong. They've got rights, and it's none of Big Guvment's business!. Forget the science frauds. It's all back to parents' individual stories from here on out. New anti-vax films will all feature reasonable-seeming, sympathetic and media-genic parents. They'll have fewer negatives in the Q scores than Jenny McCarthy. If I was working anti-vax PR with funds to buy a new movie, I'd go strictly 'delayed vax is good but it's your choice' on the surface with tons of sub-text dog-whistles. I'd try to enlist Dr. Jay as my 'medical expert', and get someone like Mayim Bialik from his Hollywood connections as the star.

First, Brian Deer,
Have you written any news story other than "Andy Wakefield" in the last 5 years?
Please post examples, so I can believe it is true.

"The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet..."

Could you please explain why the Lancet published Wakefield in the first place?
I've never heard THAT explanation.

Brian, have you ever considered visiting Denmark?
It is a great opportunity to fill in your "journalism gap".

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

"The Dwoskins are friends and major supporters of Bill and Hill. Their influence was probably responsible for Hillary’s little nod to the anti-vaxers in ’08."

LOL! Nice try Sadmar. #35

Hillary has bigger fish to fry:
"The Daily News on Tuesday reported that Clinton aides have already scoped out office space in BROOKLYN HEIGHTS, just across the river from Manhattan."
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/231671-can-cool-brooklyn-rub-off-o…

Isn't this near the major ANTI-VAX VOTING BLOC I've been blogging about?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/measles-vaccine-developer-warns-jewish-ant…
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a5.htm
http://www.notfortourists.com/Hood.aspx/NewYork/BoroughPark
http://forward.com/articles/199430/jewish-pro-hillary-clinton-group-is-…
Oy vey!

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

panacea - I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Reinforce their biases, validate their inner narrative, and they will react in ways that makes them look even crazier and further diminishes their credibility.

I deleted this a couple of times, knowing that some of those folks probably lurk here, but in all honesty, they couldn't intentionally moderate their message if their lives depended on it. They are unraveling. Our task now is to pursue an endgame strategy for the eradication of bullshit.

By cheb mc herfer… (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

@Dorit
"A. Andrew Wakefield can appear reasonable and convincing to those who do not know his record, as long as he doesn’t let himself go, as in the Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot video. But he has that record, that’s very easy to point to."

Could you please cite the "record" you refer to?
Some of us do not know what A. Andrew Wakefield's record is.

Could you please post a link to the "Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot" video? I can't imagine what that is!

Also there are several unanswered questions addressed to you over on the earlier "Dog whistle" blog.

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Expect a "spin" at AoA...but no one cares...except for us lurkers who derive pleasure from the posts and comments at AoA.

The Dwoskin Family Foundation's spokesperson opines....

"Is There a Vaccine Debate Occurring? It Doesn’t Seem Like It."

You bet there's debates occurring in several State legislatures to tighten up/eliminate vaccination exemptions...and more parents are getting involved to support legislators who propose bills to eliminate those exemptions.

http://dwoskinfamilyfoundationvaccinesupport.com/

P.S. Diane Harper is again cited as one of the developers of the HPV vaccine.

@Deer Brian,

Let me entice you. This could be the news scoop OF THE YEAR. It has drama, treachery, theft, and the health of millions of children at stake, and it is in SCENIC DENMARK. Aren't you sick of "Wakefield"? The fair city of ATLANTA (remember Scarlet?) Georgia, would fill the streets shouting HOSANNAH! if you aid in the return to them, their not-so-native son and alleged THIEF of over $1 MILLION CDC $$$$$$$$$. He would stand trial, and be brought to justice, and go to a place where he would know if his vaccines actually work.
YOU CAN GET STARTED RIGHT AWAY!
Here are the details:
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/thorsen-indictment.pdf
“OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 MILLION of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.”
https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
http://www.naturalnews.com/046644_MMR_vaccine_autism_scientific_fraud.h…

Good luck! I see FRONT PAGE headlines in your future.......

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

CALLING ALL OREGON ANTI-VAXXERS:
This is all you need:
Google:
client=safari&rls=en&q=WHO+%22Global+Manual+on+Surveillance+of+Adverse+Events+Following+Immunization%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Click on the one with PDF file at top.

and this....

"Statement on RISK vs Benefit of Vaccinations by David Satcher, M.D., PH.D.
Assistant Secretary for Health and Surgeon General
U.S. Public Health Service
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Before the House Committee on Government Reform
August 3, 1999

...Vaccine approval also REQUIRES the provision of adequate PRODUCT LABELING to allow health care providers to understand the vaccine’s proper use, including its POTENTIAL benefits and RISKS, in order TO COMMUNICATE with patients and PARENTS and to SAFELY deliver the vaccine to the public. Vaccines are also subject to lot release testing and protocol review to further ENSURE their quality.

Although extensive studies are REQUIRED for licensure, post-marketing research and surveillance are necessary to identify SAFETY issues which may only arise or be detected FOLLOWING vaccination of a much larger population. Rare events may not come to light before licensure, or, if noted, the evidence may not be adequate to prove that such events were due to a vaccine. The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a valuable post-marketing tool for just such safety surveillance. I will describe VAERS later in the testimony. In addition, post-marketing STUDIES of a SPECIFIC vaccine are REQUIRED by FDA in order to obtain additional SAFETY or other data. Also, after licensure, MONITORING of the product and of production activities, including periodic facility inspections, MUST CONTINUE as long as the manufacturer holds a LICENSE for the product.

No system is perfect and NO medicine or VACCINE can EVER be GUARANTEED to be 100 percent FREE OF possible side effects or ADVERSE EVENTS, particularly when administered to millions of people. For these reasons, the Department, its constituent agencies (FDA, CDC, NIH, HRSA), the scientific community, and industry strive for continuous improvements in VACCINE SAFETY. Speaking for the Department and its agencies, we WELCOME all constructive input and CRITICISM in this regard….”
http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t990803a.html

NOTE: You can't have informed consent AND forced vaccination.
ALL VACCINES CARRY RISK.

"In addition, post-marketing STUDIES of a SPECIFIC vaccine are REQUIRED by FDA in order to obtain additional SAFETY or other data."

Here is what coauthor and WHISTLEBLOWER Dr. William Thompson had to say about one of these studies:

"“FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AUGUST 27,2014

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM

My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.

I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed…..

My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.”
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…

NOTE: NOTHING has been done to investigate this. Thompson has not testified. He sent an estimated 100,000 pages of related CDC documents to Congressman Bill Posey on Sept. 8, 2014. No statement has been made to the public regarding this and the documents have not been made available to the public. Call the House Space, Science, and Technology Committee and demand to know what is in them so you can have informed consent regarding any future vaccinations.

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

#42 CORRECTION. Google the following:
WHO "Global Manual on Surveillance of Adverse Events Following Immunization"
Click on the one with PDF file at top

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Oregon anti-vaxxers:

Take a tip from Angelina Jolie :
Tell them you won't vaccinate until ALL children have "safe" vaccines....
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-…

And don't forget,
NEVER FORGET!
MISSISSIPPI 99.7 % vaccination coverage
http://www.msdh.state.ms.us/msdhsite/_static/23,15969,341.html

MISSISSIPPI 38% African-American population
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_sp…

MISSISSIPPI 1 in 88- AUTISM rate. A 563% RISE in the number of public school children with autism in the past 11 years.
http://www.dmh.ms.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2013-MAAC-Report-Final…

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

@ #34 Dangerous Bacon

"while inviting any non-fraudulent antivax proponent with scientific credentials and published research respected in the medical community to testify."

As opposed to pro-vax scientists who said things like this IN 1966?

"All of this has now changed. With the isolation of the measles virus
and extensive field testing of several potent and effective vaccines, the tools are at hand to eradicate the infection.With the general application of these tools during the coming months, eradication can be achieved in this country in the year 1967."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…

REALLY?

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 26 Feb 2015 #permalink

Dear Toto:

Thorsen is working in Denmark. He's not under arrest, and he won't be getting extradited to the US anytime soon. Also, charges against him in Denmark were dismissed.

Currently Dr. Thorsen (and he is still a Doctor - unlike Wakefield, his license to practice medicine hasn't been stripped) is I believe working as a GYN either in Odense or somewhere on Jutland.

@Darwy: I don't think I knew about Thorsen's charges being dismissed in Denmark. Do you have a link please?

Thanks,

Becky.

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

#46 Thanks for the update Darwy!
Mr. Thorsen is still very much WANTED in Atlanta, Georgia.
The Grand Jury charges have NOT been dropped. Thorsen's DeKalb County house: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2657-Briarlake-Rd-NE-Atlanta-GA-30345… (notice that the 2006 sell date matches the itemized Grand Jury count), cars, and motorcycle have not yet been sold to REPAY the CDC and the citizens of Georgia: The U.S. can put DIPLOMATIC pressure on this case. Thorsen's CDC reports, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, were used to "defend" vaccine safety. http://www.rescuepost.com/files/thorsen-indictment.pdf
His protocols have been formally questioned. Between his unresolved alleged criminal activity and the admitted scientific fraud of CDC senior scientist, William Thompson, and the SUPRESSION of his released estimated 100,000 pages of CDC documents, IT IS NO WONDER THAT CITIZENS QUESTION VACCINE SAFETY!

Brian Deer: We need you do an investigative report on Poul Thorsen.
WE ARE TIRED OF WAKEFIELD! WE ARE TIRED OF CDC CORRUPTION!

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

@Becky

Apparently they've brought new charges against him - forgery.

It's not double jeopardy (not that that exists in DK anyhow), but I doubt these charges will go any further, it's been nearly 3 years.

Ah, Toto's found a new thread to run up and down with his underpants on his head. It is a harmless outlet.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

...and I have to mention, should Brian Deer come to Copenhagen, I'd be more than happy to give him the 10dkk tour.

"Here we have Statens Serum Institute, Panum Institute..."

Beer included.

@Darwy
So, is his house just going to sit there until it falls down?
Why would an innocent man FLEE THE COUNTRY?
Is any one living in the Atlanta house?
Regardless, HIS REPUTATION IS RUINED.

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

@Toto

"Flee the country"

Oh, you mean he WENT HOME. That's what people do after they've been on a trip. THEY GO HOME.

I would agree his reputation as a researcher is ruined. That's why he pursued other qualifications, and is now employed with them.

Toto,

The argument you are making seems to be:

Wakefield is a fraud. He is anti-vaccine.
Thorson is a crook. He is pro vaccine.

Therefore..........?

What exactly is your argument?

"Statens Serum Institute"
Looks like the Danish version of the CDC. Is the "good old boys" club surrounding the wagons? U.S. citizens take note!

Interestingly, Denmark is now IPV. Doesn't that conflict with countries using OPV?

Well, NO MORE DANISH COOKIES or Hans Christian Anderson stories for me! And I won't be visiting the very Little Mermaid until it gets below freezing in a very warm place.

DARWY: "Hey Brian! Here's D'Beer!"
I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD NEVER SUCCUMB TO SUCH A CHEAP SHOT.

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

@Darwy

Excuse me? Our Federal government has listed him as a "fugitive" and put him on a MOST WANTED LIST because he unlawfully left the country (fled) in order to avoid facing trial for the GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS. This is serious stuff.
ANTI-VAXXERS, PLEASE TAKE NOT OF THIS PERSON'S CALLOUS DISREGARD FOR OUR LAWS. WOULD YOU ENTRUST THE SAFETY OF YOUR CHILD WITH SOMEONE SUCH AS HIM??????

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

"The argument you are making seems to be:
Wakefield is a fraud"

Nope. I know nothing of the case. I AM JUST SICK OF HEARING HIS NAME, WHEN IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
If you have a scientific reason to invoke the name "Wakefield", then please follow it with a well reasoned CITED (link) statement.
Your faux "neurolinguistic propaganda" has fallen flat.

THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN
THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN.

By Toto "The Rock" (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

Sadmar: We’re way past ‘proving vaccines cause autism’. Vaccines cause everything, because the parents say so. And it doesn’t matter if they’re wrong. They’ve got rights, and it’s none of Big Guvment’s business!.

And this is why no amount of facts will work, even if the parents hadn't slept through high school biology. Taking vaccines away for a few years in places like Marin or instituting a two or three tier system in the doctor's office is much more likely to work. Like for instance, if the family doesn't vaccinate, they have to wait in the waiting room with no toys, or the doctor makes sure to praise other families in their presence.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

<\killfile>

If you have a scientific reason to invoke the name “Wakefield”, then please follow it with a well reasoned CITED (link) statement.
Your faux “neurolinguistic propaganda” has fallen flat.

THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN
THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN.

Heh.

<killfile>

I just love the idea that we have a commenter who has given themselves the nickname of a professional wrestler.

It's ok, Toto, I smelll what "The Rock" is cooking.

a-non: I hope Dwayne Johnson sues Toto for slander. Actually, from what I hear, he's intelligent, whereas Toto would lose a game of chess to a mass of algae.

By Politicalguineapig (not verified) on 27 Feb 2015 #permalink

SSI is more or less the Danish counterpart to the CDC, with a few notable distinctions - it does fall directly under the auspices of the Ministry of Health, it is the producer for all the vaccines used on the Danish vaccine schedule, and has an excellent record of research publications and opportunities for PhD scholarships.

As far as Thorsen, he's practicing medicine. That's what doctors do. Unless they've had their license revoked.

Toto, Wakefield is being discussed because, as per the OP, he was invited by some berks to testify to the Oregon legislature...

By the way, you (and anyone else) do realise how difficult it is to actually get struck off by the GMC over here, don't you? You really do have to try hard and screw up most royally. And to be removed from (so I am informed by someone in a position to know) from fellowship of a Royal College...

It is not coincidental that Wakefield hightailed it out of here, as his name is now officially "The disgraced former doctor" Wakefield.

Hooray for Jimmy Kimmel...and for Sarah A... for providing that videotape.

Praise Jimmy Kimmel - that was beautiful.

http://tinyurl.com/no65ams (w. links to video)
"Freshman congressman Barry Loudermilk, (R - GA) hosted his first town hall meeting last week. On vaccines, he told the crowd:

I believe it’s the parents’ decision whether to immunize or not. – most of our children, we didn’t immunize. They’re healthy. Of course, home schooling, we didn’t have to get the mandatory immunization.

He was responding to a question about whether there's been a cover-up in certain studies about the link between autism and the MMR vaccine. He continued:

The Committees on Energy and Commerce and Government Oversight are already looking into this issue, and we’ve been assured they will continue to investigate the matter fully. We look forward to hearing the findings of both committees.

Loudermilk was recently named to the Science, Space and Technology Committee.

Toto, Wakefield is being discussed because, as per the OP, he was invited by some berks to testify to the Oregon legislature…

You're failing to grasp that Tutu doesn't actually read the posts; all comment threads, by definition, are about Tutu.

@Darwy - thanks for the info. Much appreciated. :-)

By Rebecca Fisher (not verified) on 28 Feb 2015 #permalink

I note how Handley miscalculates the number of vaccines given "before" the age of 6 years again, arriving at a total of 37 when some are given only at 6 years (not before) and some can be combined.
He also tells blatant lies about the vaccine schedules for other countries. For example:
Norway is 15 (not 13)
Iceland is 16 (not 11)
Sweden is 15 (not 11)
Denmark is 16 (not 14)
Japan has 21 (not 11)

If he has such a great scientific case against vaccines, why does he need to lie?

Handley also lies about the combination vaccines - he says Merck states that: "Routine administration of DTP and/or oral polio vaccine is not recommended because there is limited data on the simultaneous administration of these vaccines."

Huh?
Is he trying to kid them that we are still back in the 1980s, when we used to give OPV and DTP vaccines? Neither of these is in current use routinely, so why does he even mention them?

...he says Merck states that: “Routine administration of DTP and/or oral polio vaccine is not recommended because there is limited data on the simultaneous administration of these vaccines.”

Strange that neither Handley nor any of the antivaxers reading this seem to draw the obvious inference: that, contrary to what they repeatedly claim, the effects of giving multiple vaccines together are studied and recommendations are based on the outcomes of those studies. To hear them talk you'd think the pediatric vaccine schedule was decided by throwing darts.

To hear them talk you’d think the pediatric vaccine schedule was decided by throwing darts.

I believe that that's what they think.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad #70: Ooooops, silly me! ;)

I am highly amused (but not surprised) that the Oregon chiropractors wanted Wakefield to pontificate at the committee. After all chiropractors still hold to a set of ideas that have been surpassed by at least a century. Nothing like living in the past where Andrew Wakefield appeared to be relevant.

Of course Wakefield has no compunction to prostitute himself to whomever will pay the food and drink bills.

Poor, poor pitiful Mary Holland.

Then again, the whole "analysis" is hopelessly confused anyway:

As in the Milan case, the Ministry of Health’s compensation program had denied compensation to the family, yet after a presentation of medical evidence, a court granted compensation.

No, the question was who had to pay for the compensation. The disability was on the state's tab one way or the other.

How do we reconcile the difference between the U.S. and Italian decisions in similar cases? What’s different about Italy? Well, there may be many differences, but a critical one is that in the U.S., if someone loses in the government vaccine injury compensation program, she cannot sue the government in civil court; she can sue only the manufacturer.

What the hell do you think the Court of Federal Claims is?

^ At least, that's how I remember the Rimini decision.

Reality @ 24;
Calling Andy Wakefield as your expert witness on vaccination policy is akin to calling Bernie Madoff as your expert witness on financial investments.

In fairness that is the same argument 'psychics' et al. use when refusing to be tested by James Randi.
I'd rather have Madoff point out a ponzi scheme than someone from, oh I don't know, let's say HSBC.
But I take your point.

Apologies I forgot the quotation marks in my first paragraph..

So glad I can read Italian a bit.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 02 Mar 2015 #permalink

Well, lovely comments here but this got me: I’m actually shocked that J.B. Handley was allowed to testify. This is someone who has no scientific credentials to speak of and has often been laughably wrong about vaccines, And that doesn’t even get into his very public bullying (including threats of legal action) against anyone who disagrees with him.

How will you allow someone w/out a background in health to testify or give health related ideas?

Steve of: http://groomiest.com

By Steve | Groomiest (not verified) on 04 Mar 2015 #permalink

I'd post this in the laughing, yawning hyena thread, but Orac has shut it down without a single response, unable to defend his weak position about biological plausibility, even in his impudent style:

VACCINE INJURY: First the Gut, Then the Brain
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain?pa…

Meanwhile, you're all behaving as if vaccine injury doesn't exist while the industry does absolutely nothing to improve safety.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem or a terminal case of confirmation bias.

Keith Bell writes at Green Med Info.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

shay: "The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem..."

Seriously. I don't think there has ever been an article without any comments in the years I have been reading this blog.

Keith Bell writes at Green Med Info.

And apparently doesn't get enough attention, which is why he's taken to spamvertising his dreck here (also Nos. 219, 510, 529, and 537).

He seems to really dislike being ignored, as one can see again here:

I’d post this in the laughing, yawning hyena thread, but Orac has shut it down without a single response, unable to defend his weak position about biological plausibility

Note that it didn't, say, automatically close after three months, it was "shut down" out of cowardice in the face of KEITHBELL.

Time to update the killfile.

What thread is he even talking about? The only thing I can think of is it's a thread that's more than 90 days old. Threads auto-close at 90 days because rarely are there any good comments after that length of time, just spam.

Meanwhile, you’re all behaving as if vaccine injury doesn’t exist while the industry does absolutely nothing to improve safety.

No one is do this, however. what we are doing is we're noting (accurately) that the adverse consequences causaly associated with vaccination are well understood; that those which are common (e.g., soreness at the site of injection, low grade fever) being both minor and transient and those that are serious (e.g., encephalopathy) all but vanishingly rare.

it's also false to claim that the industry is doing nothing to improve safety: wherever safety concerns associated with a vaccine safety have been deminstrated the industry has rapidly taken corrective action, up to and including withdrawing the product from the market (as was done with respect to RotaShield).

By "without a single response", Keith presumably means the umpteen responses in the laughing, yawning hyena thread in which his GreenMedInfo fomites were refuted, and attention was called to his well-rounded ignorance on an impressive range of topics.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Here's another vaccine safety article for anyone interested in safety which is very few of you, if any:
http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/gut-microbiota-infant-vaccine-pro…

Good to know posts are closed after 90 days. This is the heinous Orac post I referred to; no response from Orac while Narad had nary a thing to add:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/10/01/antivaccine-cranks-try-to-…

You might regain some lost customers if you concentrated on safety.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

@keith

Thanks for the laughs at your ignorance and lack of reading comprehension. I did need a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect fool for a good chuckle.

Please keep on posting, show the world your complete lack of basic scientific knowledge, and we all could use a laugh at your expense.

shay
The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem or a terminal case of confirmation bias.

Denice Walter
Keith Bell writes at Green Med Info.

You two should be in vaudeville.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith should be careful. If he annoys me enough, I might just start blogging about some of his spew over at GreenMedInfo. :-)

no response from Orac while Narad had nary a thing to add

Didn't they tell you? 'Narad' is just another of Orac's noms-de-guerre. In fact we all are.
I had a nom-de-beurreonce, which I used for spamming on behalf of the NZ dairy industry.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

I'd be honored, Orac. You of all people must realize there's no such thing as bad publicity. Have you done much research into the microbiome and cancer? Some cancer drugs fail without microbes and the same is true of vaccines:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/21/three-cancer-drugs-d…

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/2/249.full

I'd be impressed if you demonstrated grasp of the constructs. Narad and one other from your gang were the only people demonstrating understanding while others like Skeptiquette went on and on like windbags without really understanding microbial predisposition. I'll admit, she was very sweet though . . . and helpful as opposed to novalox and bimler who are heavy on insolence, low on respect.

Looking forward to even an ounce of substantive response given the US government has already compensated vaccine-injured families $3 billion.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

You two should be in vaudeville.

At least we'll never sink to the level of greenmedinfo.

hdb: "Keith presumably means the umpteen responses in the laughing, yawning hyena thread in which his GreenMedInfo fomites were refuted, and attention was called to his well-rounded ignorance on an impressive range of topics."

It seems he is upset that his claims did not elicit a reply by Orac. Though it is quite clear he does not understand the several dozen responses by others.

Though I would love to have him answer one question I had about the MMR vaccine: since it was first introduced in the USA in 1971 (with a slight change of rubella strain in 1978), surely he as documentation dated before 1990 that it caused all those terrible things in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s.

The USA is much larger and had been using it much longer before Wakefield was even aware it existed... so the effects would have been noticed much earlier if they were real.

Oh, and Mr. Bell, I want verifiable documentation dated before 1990... not an Age of Autism article by some financial dude. I can really see why you did not understand the responses if you think 2010 was before 1990.

Chris, how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units? This resulted in a huge spike in autism cases.

Are you up to date with your vaccines, btw? I'd bet you need a few boosters, especially MMR. You're a carrier if I ever met one. Hopefully, your immune system reliant on flora balance can handle the vaccine challenge.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Chris, how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units? This resulted in a huge spike in autism cases"

Unless you provide some kind of verifiable documentation (not AoA or your website), we will assume you are just making it up. I am not even talking about the 1990s, I am asking about the years between 1971 and 1990. Do try to keep up.

Since I was born after 1956 and no one in my family remembers if I had measles (though I definitely had mumps, twice!) I got an MMR vaccine about a month ago. This was prompted because we are going to travel to California in a couple of months.

So I am not a carrier, and you still need to come up with actual verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that the issues you claim are caused by the MMR vaccine were there in the 1970s and 1980s.

I’d be impressed if you demonstrated grasp of the constructs.

And to what greater heights could anyone aspire, than to impress Keith Bell of GreenMedInfo?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

On the contrary, you're definitely a carrier since you were recently vaccinated with MMR. How long do you plan on shedding? Any rashes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kp7oUvEYGQ

Thanks for the inspiration to research 1971 to 1990; I'll get back to you if I have any answers. One obvious concern is the difference in the overall protocol. Safe journey.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

And, btw, being a carrier isn't such a bad thing if your immune system keeps the problem in check and you don't infect anyone vulnerable. Did you know 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? This means millions of people are carriers and don't even know it . . . so how can we improve natural immunity? There are lots of good ways not yet implemented. One is improved sanitation. Another is nutrition.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Price, why should we accept videos as evidence from Suzanne Humphries? She is only slightly more qualified than you, and that is not a very high bar.

Ooops, I meant "Mr. Bell."

Chris, how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units? This resulted in a huge spike in autism cases.

Keith, your evidence factually establishing the existence of a causal association between the MMR vaccine and autism spectrum disorders would be...what, exactly? Be specific.

You do have some, right? Your claim is founded in something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy?

You cited "Age of Autism"? Seriously Ken?
Also, are you a sockpuppet of Keith Bell?

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Lower-case ken has been here much longer, and has a distinctive style of commenting. His revelations are more entertaining if you have the Dramatic Gopher playing in a background window while you read them.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

ow do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units?

This 'fact' seems to have become an article of faith in anti-vax circles, passed from hand to hand in the manner of a well-sucked lollipop, and it would be foreign to its catechistic nature for them to load it down with sources. The nearest thing one can find to evidence is a known bullsh1t artist attributing the claim to "an informal conversation with a Merck scientist."

In some versions of the story. Merck are further accused of perfidiously reducing the number of mumps virions in Varimax, in 2007... but are they given any credit for reducing the incidence of autism?

Since MMR consists of live (attenuated) viruses there is no connection between the number of particles initially injected and the number of particles in one's body while the immune system does its thing, but there you go.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 26 Mar 2015 #permalink

Did you know 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? This means millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it

I'm glad that I'm just now getting around to a machine that hasn't had the latest Plonk-O-Matic patch installed yet. This triple-decker failburger is delicious.

Mr. Bell seems to be playing the "thingy-card" - whereas the only people who are "infected" are those who get vaccinated.

Until I got interested in this topic, years ago, I never imagined that there were people as both stupid and crazy, as the likes of Keith Bell.

how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units?

Hey, Keith – quick, what's the name for these units?

If Jake Crosby is to be believed, the units are numbers of virions. Each injection of Merck MMR contained precisely 5000 virus particles prior to 1990, and precisely 20,000 afterwards. They are measured out with a very small pipette.
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/09/14/the-national-autism-associa…

However, the story had already passed through several digestive systems before it reached Crosby.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Did you know 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? This means millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it . . .

If this clumsy non sequitur is accurate, how is it that polio has been eliminated from India, going from 500-1,000 children being paralyzed every day in the early 90s to zero cases since 2011? It's almost as if Keith is spouting easily refuted nonsense, and there is no asymptomatic carrier state except in immune deficient persons.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Ah yes ken, the pharma shill gambit, a sure sign as of any that you have no coherent argument to speak of and admit that you cannot bring a barely cogent argument to the table.

#112 Mr Price. Chris you appear to be suffering from schizophrenic symptoms, possibly due to your recent MMR vaccination. Or, you've been doing a lot cooking using the Vincent Price cookbook for your husband, Narad, especially fond of the gnotobiotic pig dish. (Denice got a kick out of that re: this incestual group.)

Are you constipated? This leads to serotonin deficiency and glutamate excitotoxicity. Please don't sleep in the face-down prone position to avoid stimulation of the serotonergic sytstem by CO2 and cardiac arrest.
http://www.europeanneuropsychopharmacology.com/article/S0924-977X(14)00…
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163834313001898
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121003111503.htm
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain?pa…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Kreb, great to read you. Narad, riotous (I love that guy).

"Up to 95% of all polio infections are inapparent or asymptomatic."
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf

Kreb, you're absurdly behaving as if polio has actually been eliminated in India. Who pulled the wool? Later we can talk about the thousands of people paralyzed by the polio vaccine, but for now you need to understand polio is alive and well, kept in check by intestinal mucosal cells working synergistically with microbes in a body near you. See here:
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/201/10/1535.long

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Chris you appear to be suffering from schizophrenic symptoms, possibly due to your recent MMR vaccination."

It was a typo because I was sitting down quickly while making dinner. And I am definitely not constipated, never have been due to a good diet and exercise.

Now, where is any real evidence that the MMR causes the issues you claims it does, and that documentation dated before 1990 that they happened in the 1970s and 1980s.

Oh, and as far as the mumps component in the MMR, there is the Table I in Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.. The MMR only has 24 antigens per dose, so you better find out what Young Master Crosby means by "units."

Thanks for your response, Chris. Glad to hear you're not constipated and wish you the best in mental health. But the fact you've had mumps twice is concerning as it's associated with psychosis later in life. Instead of MMR to prepare for your trip to California, you might have considered boosting innate immunity with probiotic therapy, heavy on bifidobacteria along with things like organ meats for vitamin A. Vitamin D3 and especially zinc may be good supplements for you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056223
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485564/#bb0055

Also, you may consider lowering carbs, dairy and intermittent fasting.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

So much crazy packed into a single individual - I do hope Keith hangs around, he's fun to watch....like a slow-motion train wreck.

Chris -- do you really expect a straight answer? He's dodging faster than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

The MMR only has 24 antigens per dose, so you better find out what Young Master Crosby means by “units.”

I know exactly what it means. It's even been handed to you in the replies, but you don't seem to have been able to figure it out.

Yet you are the one who invoked the "fact."

Anyway, the "millions of polio carriers" bit was a knee-slapper, but you're not worth my not updating this box as well.

^ Ah, no coffee. Sorry, Chris.

Keith Bell #98:

"You might regain some lost customers if you concentrated on safety."

Interesting word use. Mr. Bell might be interested to know that unlike greenmedinfo, for example, this website doesn't have a store.

Yeah, shay, I don't expect much from Mr. Bell, a guy who thinks he can diagnose someone due to one typo. Narad, would you accept a diagnosis from Mr. Bell because you mixed up replies?

Especially since he lists actually getting a disease as a precursor to mental illness... but thinks kids would be better with the diseases than with the MMR vaccine. By the way, Brain Trust Bell, every kid got those infections before wide use of vaccines (and Sweden is one of those countries that had low vaccine uptake, see Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story).

Keith,

Kreb, you’re absurdly behaving as if polio has actually been eliminated in India. Who pulled the wool?

It has, and if you believe otherwise you are the one who has had the wool pulled over your eyes. Do you believe that the 27,281 negative stool tests on patients with AFP in India last year were all faked?

Later we can talk about the thousands of people paralyzed by the polio vaccine,

Thousands? There were 35 cases of vaccine-derived polo globally last year, according to the WHO (see link above), not a single one in India. If you mean VAPP, it occurs after 1 in 2.7 million doses of OPV, and is the reason countries where polio has been eliminated move to the IPV.

but for now you need to understand polio is alive and well, kept in check by intestinal mucosal cells working synergistically with microbes in a body near you.

I'm curious, why do you think this asymptomatic infection fails to show up in stool samples? Why do you believe it exists?

See here:

I always enjoy it when antivaxxers present a study they have misunderstood that says the opposite of what they think it does. That study was carried out in 2003–2008, before polio was eliminated in India, on children who had been in contact with suspected polio cases. These were people with asymptomatic active infection, not carriers, and virus was only detected in their stools for a limited period. I very much doubt there are any bodies near me that have been in recent contact with polio sufferers. As the study makes clear, the OPV is somewhat effective at preventing gut infection with polio virus, but is much more effective at preventing the virus from causing paralysis.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ken - I thought you weren't coming back?

Also, once you start looking for something, you're going to find a lot more of it.....and none of those cases were Polio.

ken,

#135 AFP is a serious problem –

Of course it is. Do you have a point? Did you expect polio vaccination to eliminate other causes of AFP, like snake bites and car accidents? Other enteroviruses are another cause of AFP, which is why drug companies are working on vaccines to prevent them and antiviral drugs to treat them.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

#138 Never said it was. You are certainly showing your lack of compassion. So if it's not polio it doesn't matter. That's what's wrong with the narrownwss, snarkiness of this blog. If it doesn't support your gospel it's irrelevant. Empathy impairment- how many Asberger's on this blog?

Narad please exercise your high IQ and search for grammar errors in #141 Thanks really relevant.

Jacob Puliyel, who compiled data from the national polio surveillance project, found a link between the increase in dosage of polio vaccination and the increasing cases of NPAFP.

That's very probably because the places where vaccine coverage is highest are also the areas where active surveillance is greatest.

“Most experts will tell you the cases of NPAFP have increased because of better surveillance. This is bunkum,” said Puliyel. “As per global benchmarks, as polio incidence comes down, the rate of NPAFP should also reduce. Instead, AFP cases have been increasing steadily.”

Why would he expect reducing polio incidence to reduce non-polio AFP? As I wrote above AFP can be caused by car accidents and snake bites, both of which as not uncommon in India, and by other enteroviruses. None of these are prevented by the polio vaccine.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Nice insult against people with Asbergers there ken, such a kind and considerate person.

Things that aren't Polio, aren't Polio - what's your point?

ken,

#138 Never said it was.

You rarely do, you just copy and paste stuff and expect us to divine what it is you think it shows. I can only base what I think you mean on your previous offerings here.

You are certainly showing your lack of compassion. So if it’s not polio it doesn’t matter.

How does me agreeing that AFP is a serious problem show a lack of compassion precisely?

That’s what’s wrong with the narrownwss, snarkiness of this blog. If it doesn’t support your gospel it’s irrelevant. Empathy impairment- how many Asberger’s on this blog?

What was your point in posting that link? The polio eradication program wins an astonishing victory by eliminating polio in India and all you can do is whine about non-polio AFP. Don't you have any compassion for the hundreds of thousands that were crippled by polio in India every year (I met several when I was in India in the late 80s), and the millions that will now have active healthy lives thanks to vaccination?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Kreb, re: asymptomatic polio in India:
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/210/suppl_1/S252.abstract

Why do you think up to 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? I think it's about protective gut flora balance. And it seems the same applies to why measles is lethal in some while mild in most.

I came here to share my new article about how the same mechanism may apply to vaccine injury and learn a few things in conversation. It's about vaccine safety, not elimination of vaccination.

Chris, I'm not diagnosing you in the least, don't take it personally. I was merely using you as way of describing how a gut injury leads to brain injury.

Vincent

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith's "gut" describes how screwed up in the head he is.....

Mr. Bell: "Chris, I’m not diagnosing you in the least, don’t take it personally. I was merely using you as way of describing how a gut injury leads to brain injury. "

Thoroughly demonstrating you are completely clueless. Which was made abundantly clear when you refused to answer my questions on the other thread, but floundered about by changing the subject.

@Keith - if everyone is vaccinated for Polio, then yes, it isn't a problem, is it?

Are you really that stupid by nature, or did you get a degree in it?

Let's see - vaccination will prevent the spread of disease quickly and inexpensively in the absence of work on sanitation. Improved sanitation will reduce the spread of some diseases, but will take decades to implement and cost significantly more. And not do anything about diseases that aren't spread by tainted water.

I'm a big fan of providing people safe water and properly treating their wastes. I think much more effort should go to that in those countries that don't have safe water and sanitary sewers. But vaccines for water-borne diseases is a quicker win.

BTW - see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Reinvent-t… if you want more information on the Gates initiatives on human waste disposal.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

bimler, let’s talk about your specialty

Let's not. Why shift to an entirely new topic, when earlier you stated as a fact that "Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units"?
You have been invited to buttress that claim with evidence. I hope you're not running away from it.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

He’s dodging faster than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
I would have said "dodging faster than a blindfolded clown in a room full of rakes", but Shay's version is also good.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ken - again, what does that have to do with Polio, which is almost eradicated & we have a vaccine for?

#156 It's Science- not myriad snarky comments.

It’s Science- not myriad snarky comments.

I have read enough and written enough critical reviews to break down Science roughly as follows:
Inspiration: 5%
Lab work: 10%
Writing grant applications: 15%
Writing manuscripts: 10%
Hanging out at conferences: 10%
Snarky comments about other scientists: 50%.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Actually, it is science. Please provide your proof that something that is not Polio is actually Polio.

hdb: "Let’s not. Why shift to an entirely new topic, ..."

Notice how Bell said: "bimler, let’s talk about your specialty:.." to get off the topic, right after my observation of "...but floundered about by changing the subject."

#159 If you had read the article you would not have made such a dumb remark. Something that is not polio is not polio according to the article which has examined the AFP cases in CA. Some people were concerned about this having a possible relationship to the polio vaccine.

Keith Bell,

Why do you think up to 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic?

Only about 1% of cases lead to paralytic polio because only in 1% of cases does the virus get into the nervous system. In the other 99% of cases it leads to mild influenza-like symptoms at most. As for why that 1% ends up paralyzed, it appears to be down to chance whether or not the virus makes it into the nervous system.

I think it’s about protective gut flora balance.

What makes you think that?

And it seems the same applies to why measles is lethal in some while mild in most.

Do you any particular reason to believe this? Measles is most dangerous in the very young and in adults. Why would these groups be more likely to have gut dysbiosis?

Over 43 million people in Pakistan practice open defecation. Do you really think polio is a vaccination issue?

Even more people practice open defecation in India (I could tell some tales) yet they haven't had a case of polio for 4 years. So, yes, polio is definitely a vaccination issue.

Another article on AFP which clarifies some points.

Like I wrote above, "AFP can be caused by [...] other enteroviruses. Polio was the low-hanging fruit, now we need vaccines or effective treatments for the higher hanging fruit like enterovirus 68.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink
but for now you need to understand polio is alive and well, kept in check by intestinal mucosal cells working synergistically with microbes in a body near you.

I’m curious, why do you think this asymptomatic infection fails to show up in stool samples? Why do you believe it exists?

The great thing about this is that if Keith weren't so dense, he could have at least reasonably attempted to make a case for invisible persistence in the environment. Not anyplace where OPV is used, mind you, but still.

If IPV induced no mucosal immunity at all,* the virus could simply run its course in the gut** without the infection's being noticed. This isn't an unreasonable concern, and it would require wastewater surveillance in places like, y'know, the U.S..

IPV, however, looks to boost mucosal immunity, preserving the viability a ring strategy – still with wastewater monitoring, I'd say – PMID 19624278 notwithstanding.***

* I've brought all this up before; it was Vincent Racaniello's blog at virology[.]ws that clued me in, but in the names of link parsimony and laziness, I'm just going to fly by the seat of my pants.
** No, it doesn't shack up and get manicured by optimally tuned intestinal flora – and really, this could some sort of specific analogy, e.g., athlete (see Ewry, Ray)? musician? compost pile? Spencer Tunick group photo? – like some sort of goat-feeding operation involving a sod roof.
*** The related articles on this item look quite interesting. Only part of the Philosophical Transactions issue is open-access: h_tp://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/368/1623.toc

^ "viability of"

Yeah, shay, I don’t expect much from Mr. Bell, a guy who thinks he can diagnose someone due to one typo. Narad, would you accept a diagnosis from Mr. Bell because you mixed up replies?

Oh, that's a go-to trip for Keith. Recycling runs deep.

Narad, you’re invited for dinner. We can talk all about the gut-connection. Know anything about photosensitive seizure? And since it appears you weren’t breastfed, we’ll have something with plenty of GOS to feed your reduced or absent bifidobacteria. GOS is a prebiotic, btw.

Meanwhile, less than 2% of Gates Foundation budget goes toward improving sanitation, the lion’s share toward vaccination.

They spent $338,010 on vaccine delivery and $21,760 on vaccine development in 2013,

They had total expenditures of almost $3 million on global health and development for that year,

So the $359,770 for vaccines wasn't the lion's share of it. By any definition.

Jerusalem artichokes are packed full of prebiotics, mostly inulin. This is how I discovered that 'prebiotic' is altmed code for 'flatulence-inducing'. If you are doubled up with abdominal cramps from gas, you know your microbiome is on good shape, apparently. A horrible memory of making fermented cabbage just surfaced, shudder...

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad: "Recycling runs deep."

Well, Keith is very good at recycling bovine excrement.

@#161 --

I read the article. And I not only didn't see word one about some people being concerned that it had a possible relationship to the polio vaccine. I didn't see word one about any people being concerned that it had a possible relationship to the polio vaccine.

Please elucidate.

They spent $338,010 on vaccine delivery and $21,760 on vaccine development in 2013,

They had total expenditures of almost $3 million on global health and development for that year,

So the $359,770 for vaccines wasn’t the lion’s share of it. By any definition.

Yeah, I mindlessly copied those figures from the website without thinking about anything besides what was or wasn't a lion's share of the total, proportionally speaking.

So I didn't notice that they were way too low. Which they are, because (as they plainly state):

The amounts are in thousands of US dollars.

So add a few zeros.

They have an insane amount of money, I must say.

Jerusalem artichokes are packed full of prebiotics, mostly inulin.

As good as the Steinerite CCA that I subscribed to was in prime season, the massive filler loads of these things in autumn figured heavily into my decision to abandon the project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY

So far, it appears no one is interested in the gut-brain mechanism of vaccine injury I describe in my new article. And I doubt Orac will be brave enough to approach the subject, no matter how annoyed.

So now the conversation is reduced to gut flora mechanism in polio; a fine subject. Kreb, I linked you the CDC page above about 95% of polio cases being asymptomatic, surprisingly not common knowledge.

Here's some new knowledge and some old:
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v12/n3/full/nrmicro3219.html
http://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/abstract/S1931-3128(13)00437-X?in…
1951 insights:
http://www.mercola.com/article/sugar/polio_sugar.htm

ann, thanks for researching, but $3 million falls out of Bill Gates' nose every hour. Dig deeper and factor BMGF working in concert with major pharmaceuticals. Vaccination dwarfs sanitation.

Chris, I still love you and don't believe you're actually schizophrenic. Narad, open invitation. I meant to say "gut-brain connection". Kreb, your reaction to inulin may actually be a sign of dysbiosis which may also explain your decade of giardia.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

Here's one of the 2014 study references from 2011:
"Intestinal microbiota promote enteric virus replication and systemic pathogenesis"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222156/
"We found that poliovirus binds lipopolysaccharide, and exposure of poliovirus to bacteria enhanced host-cell association and infection."

So, it appears an imbalanced gut high in Proteobacteria and Bacteroides, gram-negative LPS-producers overgrown from a high sugar diet and/or toxic environment reducing gram- positive lactic acid bacteria (Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus), make one more prone to polio symptoms.

I'd bet the same is true of measles. In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl's young daughter to measles, it's worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature. What should have been a mild childhood disease became lethal.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

blockquote>In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl’s young daughter to measles, it’s worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature. What should have been a mild childhood disease became lethal.

What a loathsome asshole you are.

Here's Kevin Bell last October, having announced that Einstein's autism was the subject he wanted to talk about, reacting to the skepticism of more knowledgeable people by changing the subject to something completely different:

Plenty of evidence Einstein was autistic. And did you know about John Nash self-medicating as a child?

Is there any argument he hasn't run away from?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 27 Mar 2015 #permalink

ann, thanks for researching, but $3 million falls out of Bill Gates’ nose every hour. Dig deeper and factor BMGF working in concert with major pharmaceuticals. Vaccination dwarfs sanitation.

You're welcome.

I was in error. They spent $3.6 billion in 2013, not $3.6 million.

If you want any digging done that's deeper than their almost 1,000-page Form 990, I'm afraid you'll have to do it yourself.

But FYI: Their investment in pharmaceuticals is dwarfed by their investments in energy, technology, and a number of other industries.

Seriously. There's just no way to read their financials as reflecting a hand-in-glove, related-party-type collaboration with drug companies. They don't have one.

However. If you think it would be more globally philanthropic to put more money into sanitation than into vaccines, you're free to start your own $40 billion private foundation.

That's how liberty works.

Keith Bell,

So far, it appears no one is interested in the gut-brain mechanism of vaccine injury I describe pull out of my ass in my new article.

FTFY

And I doubt Orac will be brave enough to approach the subject, no matter how annoyed.

I doubt it's keeping him awake at night.

So now the conversation is reduced to gut flora mechanism in polio; a fine subject. Kreb, I linked you the CDC page above about 95% of polio cases being asymptomatic, surprisingly not common knowledge.

What makes you think that? It has been discussed here many times before. A person with asymptomatic polio will clear the disease and is not a carrier, as you claim. The CDC page you linked to clearly states this:

There is no asymptomatic carrier state except in immune deficient persons.

I suppose the CDC is a reliable source of information only when it supports your mistaken ideas. This asymptomatic carrier state is very rare even in immune deficient people so your claim that "millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it" is wrong.

Here’s some new knowledge and some old: [snip] 1951 insights:

I can see how a pathogenic gut infection might increase the chances of polio virus invading the nervous system, but the studies you cited don't appear to support your claims. Immune deficient mice with their gut bacteria reduced a million-fold by antibiotic treatment are less susceptible to polio than those not treated with antibiotics:

Despite the well-known beneficial effects of intestinal microbes, we discovered that they augment enteric virus pathogenesis by enhancing viral replication.

This supports your claims how? Benjamin P. Sandler was crank who has his own pages on whale.to and whose theories about polio being caused by sugar were discredited decades ago - he claimed that the increase in polio cases in the summer was because children consumed more sugary sodas and ice cream then.

Kreb, your reaction to inulin may actually be a sign of dysbiosis which may also explain your decade of giardia.

Given my excellent GI health before I contracted giardia and after successful treatment with an anti-protozoal drug (over 15 years ago now), I somewhat doubt that. I love the way any altmed treatment is working if it makes you feel better and if it makes you feel worse that means it's working too.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

@#172/#173

I didn't mean anything nearly so ZOG.

I was really just thinking that they must have a little bit of a hard time coming up with enough worthy endeavors to meet the 5% minimum requirement some years.

That's a lot of money.

This 2014 paper states 2.4% of healthy people were shedding wild poliovirus in their stool. You don't have to be immune compromised to be a carrier.
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/210/suppl_1/S252.abstract

The sugar in question is a component of the cell wall of microbes where viruses have a preference for certain microbes. In fact, viral infection is known to temporarily improve the ASD condition.

Kreb, you're not factoring microbial predisposition and how people are different in this way. It makes perfect sense antibiotics would lead to reduced chance of polio infection.

There are over 1.25 billion people in India with plenty of healthy people shedding polio.
http://globalhealth.thelancet.com/2014/03/19/taps-and-toilets-essential…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

"Since 2000, the Gates Foundation has committed a total of more than $4 billion to GAVI."
http://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/gates-foundation-pledges-1.55-bi…

In contrast, their paltry, unviable Reinvent the Toilet campaign is a publicity stunt hiding their true agenda. But they have made the issue somewhat of a priority, however backward, educated the public and also doing some great work in fecal sludge removal/management.

Unfortunately, Bill Gates is still promoting the mixing of human waste with water:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2015/01/10/janicki-omniprocess…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

This 2014 paper states 2.4% of healthy people were shedding wild poliovirus in their stool. You don’t have to be immune compromised to be a carrier.

This was in India before polio was eliminated and the title is 'Prevalence of Asymptomatic Poliovirus Infection in Older Children and Adults in Northern India'. These are "healthy contacts of case patients with polio" i.e. people with asymptomatic infections, not carriers.

Kreb, you’re not factoring microbial predisposition and how people are different in this way. It makes perfect sense antibiotics would lead to reduced chance of polio infection.

So antibiotic use leads to gut dysbiosis except when it doesn't?

There are over 1.25 billion people in India with plenty of healthy people shedding polio.

That article says no such thing. It says India had been polio free since 2011. How can people be contacts of case patients with polio if there are no cases of polio?

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

What a loathsome asshοle you are.

Oh, G-d, I can't resist looking.

Here’s one of the 2014 study references from 2011: ...
“We found that poliovirus binds lipopolysaccharide, and exposure of poliovirus to bacteria enhanced host-cell association and infection.”

One might note the preceding sentence:

"Exposure to bacteria or their N-acetylglucosamine-containing surface polysaccharides, including lipopolysaccharide and peptidoglycan, enhanced poliovirus infectivity."

So, it appears an imbalanced gut high in Proteobacteria and Bacteroides, gram-negative LPS-producers overgrown from a high sugar diet and/or toxic environment reducing gram- positive lactic acid bacteria (Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus), make one more prone to polio symptoms.

Didn't look too closely at Figure 4, did you? (Guess who makes 10 times as much PG.)

Hey, I wonder whether Kuss et al. have been cited by anybody.

"We determined that exposure to bacteria increased infectivity of poliovirus virions. After exposure to Gram-positive or Gram-negative bacteria, we recovered up to 5-fold more plaque forming units (PFU) than we started with. Since only ~1 of every 200 picornavirus particles are infectious, these data suggest that exposure to bacteria 'resurrects' infectivity for some particles, reducing the particle:PFU ratio.... [V]iral stabilization required an acetylated GlcNAc-containing polysaccharide longer than 6 units."

One more to come.

I’d bet the same is true of measles.

Because, of course, measles is actually transmitted by the fecal-oral route.

In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl’s young daughter to measles, it’s worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature.

I'm sure Keith Bellend's elaboration of the basis for this will be fascinating.

What should have been a mild childhood disease became lethal.

Hey, Keith, what's your mailing address?

So far, it appears no one is interested in the gut-brain mechanism of vaccine injury I describe in my new article.

Dawn breaks over Marblehead.

Keith:

In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl’s young daughter to measles, it’s worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature.

How did Roald Dahl "promote sugar consumption"?
You are a noxious, poisonous, hateful, vile individual.
GFY, FOADIAF and then GTH.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

Julian Frost: "How did Roald Dahl “promote sugar consumption”?"

Apparently by writing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Which if you read his one of his autobiographies was inspired by his boarding school being near Cadbury's, which tested new treats on the students.

And if Bell had bothered to actually learn about Roald Dahl, he would know that he was an avid vegetable gardener:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/6156852/Roald-Dahls-garden-reveale…

After his daughter's death he created a special memorial garden for her.

You know, I am really glad that Mr Dahl is dead so he can't see the absolutely loathsome comment by Keith. Or, alternatively, I wish he were still alive so he could punch Keith in the face for that comment. If I ever had any interest in reading what Keith wrote (which I don't), it would have been completely destroyed by that comment.

OTOH, “George’s Marvellous Medicine” was clearly written to promote alt-health and probiotic supplements.

And James and the Giant Peach of course, is a paean to an all-raw vegan diet.

Since 2000, the Gates Foundation has committed a total of more than $4 billion to GAVI.”
http://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/gates-foundation-pledges-1.55-bi…

In contrast, their paltry, unviable Reinvent the Toilet campaign is a publicity stunt hiding their true agenda.

Well.

OBVIOUSLY, if you compare 14 years of spending to one, relatively recent campaign, the former will be larger.

In fact, they do spend more on vaccines than on water/hygiene/sanitation.

But the amount they spend on vaccines is (ahem) dwarfed by the amount they spend on other things.

If we're talking about spending since 2000 (minus the grants to GAVI) that sum would be approximately $29 billion.

I mean, Keith Bell.

Are you suggesting that they sit around at the Gates Foundation, saying to themselves:

"Hey, I know! Let's spend $29 billion on stuff we don't care about at all -- such as agricultural development and HIV/AIDS treatment and scholarships -- in order to disguise our true agenda, vaccines!"

That doesn't make much sense.

In fact, they do spend more on vaccines than on water/hygiene/sanitation.

In this context, it is worth recalling how Bellend began his recent, dismally failed, dalliance with poliovirus:

This means millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it . . . so how can we improve natural immunity? There are lots of good ways not yet implemented. One is improved sanitation.

It is a testament to his idiocy that he fails to realize that it was precisely the improvement of sanitation that led to the creation of ever-worsening epidemics of poliomyelitis in the U.S. in the first place. Yet, if one were to accept his (risible) premise of endemic, occult circulation, this is exactly what his proposal would encourage.

@Julian Frost

Well what else would you expect from someone so morally challenged and intellectually deficient as keith?

You think you won't be surprised at how low the depths anti-vax posters will go but but they always seem to impress how far they'll dig themselves under.

I'm not surprised by the cowardice of this group (given its blog owner), unable to discuss the mechanism behind a young girl's death by measles for sake of future generations.

The mechanism as described and cited is strongly associated with sugar. The candy man, Dahl, also wrote "The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar" but Willie Wonka is a classic. Didn't know he was a vegetable gardener. Do you think it's possible he condoned a high sugar diet, skewing flora balance? This would make a child more vulnerable to viral infection.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 28 Mar 2015 #permalink

@keith

Again, thanks for proving my point, that you are an reprehensible individual and glory in the utterly preventable death of a young girl.

You are your ilk deserve all of the scorn and disgust you deserve.

@ ann

“Hey, I know! Let’s spend $29 billion on stuff we don’t care about at all — such as agricultural development and HIV/AIDS treatment and scholarships — in order to disguise our true agenda, vaccines!”

I met a scientist who was working on agriculture sustainability; Because he got negative results with his preliminary studies, he was afraid of not being funded and let pass the deadline for applying to the BMGF.

He was contacted by a representative of the Foundation and encouraged to re-apply anyway, even if the deadline was passed. Last I heard, the new project he put together was convincing enough and is likely to be funded.

First time I heard of a funding agency contacting a scientist. They really wanted these lines of inquiry to be explored.

As you said, if they only cared about vaccines, that doesn't make much sense.

@ Keith Bell

Do you think it’s possible he condoned a high sugar diet, skewing flora balance? This would make a child more vulnerable to viral infection.

Running around making baseless assumptions over dead people is a sure way for you to lose the debate. You know that they say about people assuming things.

Also, nice job at missing that it's LPS and freeling peptidoglycan which could be catching viruses. Like, the most ubiquitous bacterial component.

Oh, and Mr Bell? That Julian Frost said.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

Do you think it’s possible he condoned a high sugar diet, skewing flora balance? This would make a child more vulnerable to viral infection.

I always wondered how a high sugar diet is supposed to be capable of "skewing flora balance", or feeding candida in the gut (the probably imaginary 'fungal-type dysbiosis'). Sugar is rapidly hydrolyzed and absorbed in the duodenum, so it never makes it to the parts of the GI tract where the vast majority of bacteria live, and in non-diabetics it doesn't elevate blood glucose enough to feed 'bad' (or good) bacteria in the colon (even if gut bacteria had access to blood glucose which as far as I know they do not).

Low glycemic index foods, conversely, make it further down the GI tract before being broken down to monosaccharides and absorbed. It seems likely that it is low GI carbohydrate intake that encourages dysbiosis rather than high GI sugar intake.

I'm not aware of any evidence that a high sugar diet leads to vulnerability to viral infections like measles, but do provide some if you have any. As far as I know the only problems that excessive sugar causes are obesity and tooth decay. I'm not convinced that sugar causes insulin resistance except by leading to obesity, though sugar consumption is an efficient way of consuming a lot of calories.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell:

The candy man, Dahl, also wrote “The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar”

Are you off your rocker?!?! I have read “The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar”. It's about a wealthy layabout and gambler who teaches himself a method to see through the back of cards to win at gambling because he's greedy, but the self-discipline he acquires learning the technique leads him to become a Robin Hood, taking casinos for fortunes and giving it to charity. And you think that the name led to increased sugar consumption?!?!

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Here Kreb:
"Regardless of the genetic backgrounds the mice, fecal analysis revealed that the high-fat, high-sugar diet increased the abundance of members of the Firmicutes phylum and decreased the abundance of members of the Bacteroidetes phylum."
http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/12/122151/mix-bacteria-gut-may-depend-mor…

Perhaps one of the members of raised Firmicutes is Bacillus cereus, a gram-positive organism (hat tip, Narad):
"Exposure to B. cereus increased poliovirus infectivity over 500%. Enhancement of poliovirus infectivity did not require live bacteria"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222156/

Refined grains may be more a culprit in duodenal microbial overgrowth than even refined sugar. The duodenum is last place you want overgrowth, the beginning of the end. Thanks for input, Kreb.

Anyone wanna talk about measles virus found in the guts of autistic children being vaccine strains? What causes it to become a chronic infection?

Perhaps origin of measles brain infection is intestinal as studies report a large percentage of autistic children carry measles in their intestines:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759242

http://www.wakehealth.edu/News-Releases/2006/Wake_Forest_Researcher_War…

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link…

"Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease - and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus.

Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles."

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Willie Wonka is a classic.

For encouraging sugar consumption?
If I recall correctly, the boy who is responsible, parsimonious and respectful was rewarded, while the kid mashing chewing-gum non-stop and the other kid stuffing himself senselessly with chocolate-laden sweets both got punished for their sins.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Do you think it’s possible he condoned a high sugar diet

I think it's far more possible that Bell has never read any of the Dahl books he's citing.

And...he still hasn't answered Chris's question.

studies report a large percentage of autistic children carry measles in their intestines:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759242

A claim from proven fraudster Andy Wakefield is at least appropriate for this thread.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

# 206 @ bimler

The Kawashima paper has been repudiated by Kawashima himself, and Wakefield admitted in an expert report years ago that he could not rely on it.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/hisashi-kawashima.htm

The work of Nick Chadwick showed that Kawashima's results were the result of contamination. Kawashima acknowledges that the purported strains he thought he'd found were not in vaccines.

Why the paper hasn't been formally retracted is just another of the abuses by medical publishers, who simply can't be assed.

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Speaking of assed, Brian, have you flushed your toilet today? What viruses are you shedding?

Are you loaded with Proteobacteria feeding your virome? And how might this microbial predisposition affect how you react to your next MMR booster? Who's living in your Peyer's patches regulating antibody response leading to autoimmune disease, beginning in the gut leading to brain damage?

Children born with imbalanced intestinal microbiota (poor microbial predisposition) are vaccinated within 12 hours of birth, insult to injury.

The issue is overstimulation of an already compromised immune system based on flora imbalance. The actual adjuvant or vaccine strain is not relevant.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/03/29/vaccine-a…
"Important testimony was delivered by one doctor who had treated over 20 cases of MS after Gardasil vaccination. Pharmaceutical representatives were trying to say that such side effects are psychogenic, but how can a psychogenic disorder cause MS lesions in a person’s brain—and in a girl who was perfectly healthy prior to vaccination? “They didn’t have an answer to that,” she says."

Vaccine injury (and MS) begins in the gut where 70% of the body's immune system resides based on flora balance. Then the brain is attacked:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain

So, what is the vaccine industry doing to make their products safer?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell, do tell us why we would think that the fevered blathering from Mercola or yourself would be given any kind of consideration, other than for comic relief.

Also, where is any real evidence that the MMR causes the issues you claims it does, and that verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that they happened in the 1970s and 1980s. Note: links to Mercola, Natural News, greenmedinfo and other nonsense are not acceptable.

Mercola??? A reference to Mercola?

Seizing upon Pubmed keyword searches didn't work out all that well for him, after all.

Keith Bell #202 that Daily Mail article you linked to was from 2006. In addition, the study lead was Stephen Walker.
That name sounded familiar, so I googled it. Ping!

In 2006 Dr Stephen Walker presented a poster at the Montreal IMFAR meeting claiming to have identified measles virus in intestinal biopsies of children with autism. These preliminary, provisional, unconfirmed, non-peer-reviewed findings in an uncontrolled study (which does not mention MMR) were widely reported – and enthusiastically acclaimed by Dr Andrew Wakefield.

But...

In a subsequent statement issued by Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center in North Carolina, Walker denied that he had shown any link between measles virus and autism.
The Walker study has never been published.

Furthermore:

The Walker study was dismissed as evidence in the 2009 Omnibus Autism Proceedings in the USA after a detailed critique by expert witnesses.
Though reports claimed that the Walker study had ‘replicated’ the work of Wakefield’s Dublin collaborator John O’Leary published in 2002, this work has been thoroughly discredited, most comprehensively by Professor Stephen Bustin.

The Daily Fail is not a reliable source for autism news, as far as I'm concerned. It reported on the Court Case in Italy where a Lower Court in Rimini found that the MMR caused autism, but typed not a single word when that verdict was overturned by the Higher Court.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 29 Mar 2015 #permalink

“Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease – and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus.
Last night the team’s leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: ‘Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles.”

Skipping past the Daily Fail, that would be this study:
PERSISTENT ILEAL MEASLES VIRUS IN A LARGE COHORT OF REGRESSIVE AUTISTIC CHILDREN WITH ILEOCOLITIS AND LYMPHONODULAR HYPERPLASIA:
REVISITATION OF AN EARLIER STUDY
Steve Walker, Karin Hepner, Jeffrey Segal, Arthur Krigsman,
Wake Forest University School of Medicine

It later emerged the last author there, Krigsman, responsible for the biopsies and the lab-work, is a dishonest incompetent with a track-record of lying about his qualifications. He is also Wakefield's BFF.

It emerged that he left New York following disciplinary action at his former hospital and was fined $5,000 on arrival in Texas for misrepresenting his registration status.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ K Bell

Children born with imbalanced intestinal microbiota (poor microbial predisposition) are vaccinated within 12 hours of birth

Let me see if I got it straight.

- Newborns could have an "imbalanced intestinal microbiota".
I guess that may be true for about 100% of newborns, if you define "imbalanced intestinal microbiota" as "none".
Unless something went wrong during the pregnancy, newborns fresh out of the womb don't have bacteria in their guts - yet.

- an injected vaccine is going to sneak around its injection site in muscle tissues to slither up to the baby's guts, where the absence of the right bacteria will cause the vaccine to head for the brain, passing through about every organ of the baby during this unexpected journey.

Right.

Maybe you should stop watching the TV series Stargate. You are seeing Goa'uld everywhere.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

Here Kreb:
“Regardless of the genetic backgrounds the mice, fecal analysis revealed that the high-fat, high-sugar diet increased the abundance of members of the Firmicutes phylum and decreased the abundance of members of the Bacteroidetes phylum.”

A high fat high sugar diet affected the microbiome of mice - interesting, but where's the evidence that a high sugar diet increases susceptibility to viral infections in humans? I'm not disputing the fact that obesity is a bad thing, and that consuming lots of sugar is a good way of becoming obese, especially when combined with fats, but I'm not convinced that sugar is any worse than consuming excess calories in another form.

Perhaps one of the members of raised Firmicutes is Bacillus cereus, a gram-positive organism (hat tip, Narad):
“Exposure to B. cereus increased poliovirus infectivity over 500%. Enhancement of poliovirus infectivity did not require live bacteria”

But B. cereus is a probiotic (some strains, anyway) - are you saying that probiotic bacteria make us more susceptible to polio? That study suggests that killing our entire microbiome would protect us from polio - this doesn't strike me as a very good idea.

Refined grains may be more a culprit in duodenal microbial overgrowth than even refined sugar. The duodenum is last place you want overgrowth, the beginning of the end. Thanks for input, Kreb.

Why do you think refined grains, or sugar for that matter, preferentially feed bad bacteria and not probiotic bacteria?

Anyone wanna talk about measles virus found in the guts of autistic children being vaccine strains? What causes it to become a chronic infection?

Measles virus hasn't been found in the guts of autistic children; as others have pointed out this was either a mistake or in some cases (i.e. Wakefield and Krigsman) fraud.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Helianthus stated:
"Unless something went wrong during the pregnancy, newborns fresh out of the womb don’t have bacteria in their guts – yet."

That's the biggest fallacy without evidence in 20th century "science." It's where science meets religion. Evidence is accumulating showing babies are not born sterile and that the fetal GI tract is teeming with life. Meconium should be tested for every newborn pre-vaccination and stool before one year of age.

Kreb said:
"Why do you think refined grains, or sugar for that matter, preferentially feed bad bacteria and not probiotic bacteria?"

There are hundreds of studies about how diet shifts flora.
http://gut.bmj.com/content/63/1/116.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3448089/
"Refined sugars mediate the overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria like C. difficile and C. perfringens . . . "

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith, the native Hawaiian had a diet rich in vitamins, no refined sugars and fats, and hygiene equivalent or better than the Europeans at the time. Why did measles nearly drive them to extinction?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Well, what would you expect Keith to say, Krebiozen?

The micro-biome/ autism connection is all the rage:
if you scan presentations at Autism One 2015, you'll notice that many of the 'experts' discuss this along with other GI and dietary issues .Teresa Conrick perseverates at AoA.

Andy apparently left his mark with thought leaders.

I will leave out the obligatory STB reference.
Oooops!.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell,

There are hundreds of studies about how diet shifts flora.

I'm aware of that, but are there any in humans that show that refined carbohydrates cause gut dysbiosis? I know its part of the altmed litany, but is there any actual evidence in humans? All the studies you cited are, or themselves cite studies, on mice.

Oddly your second reference states:

Refined sugars, on the other hand, mediate the overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria like C. difficile [54] and C. perfringens by increasing bile output [55].

Yet reference 54 is 'Clostridium difficile infection in the inflammatory bowel disease patient; I don't have access to the full-text, but I can't find anything to suggest that C. diff overgrowth is caused by refined carbohydrates in IBD patients or anyone else. Reference 55 is 'Bile salt hydrolase activity in probiotics' and does not mention either sugar or refined carbohydrates. How would refined carbohydrates increase bile output anyway? I thought it was fats that did that.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

That's SFB reference
( sometimes I can't see this keyboard as It is black - and I am not a 100% touch typer)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Gray, that's a fascinating question. Are Hawaiians truly more susceptible to measles than other populations?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19633516

Maybe the answer is the staple starchy diet which also translates to the fact that 8 of the top 10 most obese nations on Earth are in the Pacific Islands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_Pacific

I also question sanitation and drinking water on closed island systems.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith: Sorry, that failed to answer the question at all. First of all, you have nothing showing that obesity isn't a recent issue, not a historical one. And sanitation in Europe was just as bad.

There is a far simpler, more parsimonious explanation that doesn't require any speculation on our parts: That the native Hawaiians immune systems simply wasn't adapted to the disease. Simple as that.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith, seriously.
The native population of Alta California ate a diet consisting primarily of acorns, fish and game - unlike Pacific Islanders- and didn't live on 'closed island systems' but still succumbed to epidemics when living amongst Europeans in the 19th Century. ( see wikip--- California Indians)

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith: None of which answered my specific question. I don't need speculation.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

"That the native Hawaiians immune systems simply wasn’t adapted to the disease. Simple as that."

Now that's what I call science. What about the immune system's reciprocal relationship between genes and microbes regulated by diet and environment?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Keith: That fails to explain why so many American Indian tribes died from disease. At all.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

To be specific, most American Indians had much better nutrition than the European invaders, and they still died off in droves from European disease. Why is that?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

But there’s also the genetic component of the immune system based on host glycans which are carbs/sugar feeding our microbes

Sweet Jesus. I see that Keith promptly took to G—ling after the peptidoglycan debacle, with predictable results.

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status. This affects gut flora balance as the genes regulate host glycans making them susceptible to diabetes, but also viral-glycan interaction as posted above.

See 1950 chart here:
http://www.drpeterjdadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Secretor_Status

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

And? They aren't dying like flies now. Genetics doesn't work as an explanation.

Keith, let me explain your situation to you clearly. You are the prosecutor accusing someone of being a murderer. I am the one with the alleged victim on the witness stand. The evidence is simply too strong for you to contend with.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

See 1950 chart here

How was I able to guess in advance that this was going to involve the comically stupid "Blood Type Diet"?

There is evidence that island obesity is not a recent phenomenon.

Something tells me that Keith is not going to provide any of that evidence. Making stuff up is easier.
Against this nebulous unspecified "evidence", there are descriptions of the Hawaii'ans from Captain Cook and his officers, impressed by their health and physical perfection. But who to believe? Eye-witness accounts, or "evidence" freshly invoked to shore up a failed hypothjesis?

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "The US government has already compensated vaccine-injured families $3 billion and counting. The case is closed, I’m only trying to describe mechanisms of injury via the gut-brain."

No, you are showing you don't understand basic math. Looking at the data from 2006 to the present we see that 2,236,678,735 doses were given between 2006 to 2013, or about 319525534 doses per year. So the total is with 2014 added about 2556204269 doses.

Looking a few columns over on that first graph that 1,672 claims were compensated. So that is one claim per 1528830 doses. So that is one claim in over a million doses.

Since most of them were of the "settlement" type of compensation where the vaccine causing the injury was not actually proved.

Any chance, Mr. Bell, that you will provide actual PubMed indexed studies showing the MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella... and that it had been documented happening in the USA prior to 1990?

I also question sanitation and drinking water on closed island systems.

Pre-European Hawaiian sanitation was a lot better than their European contemporaries. with strong tabus about separating sh1t from the rest of life. They favoured long-drop toilets, I recall.
If saving a hypothesis required me to dream up a whole series of secondary hypotheses, which all ran up against reality and proved to be wrong, I would think about abandoning the original hypothesis.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Evidence is accumulating showing babies are not born sterile and that the fetal GI tract is teeming with life.

Ah? Fine. Any citation for me to be less stupid at the end of the day?
Since you are at it, any evidence of this "imbalance" you talk about happening in newborns?

You know, it's how science, religion or not, works. It's fine to rewrite the holy texts every so often, but if you forget to pass me the new missal, don't blame me for singing out of turn.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ Bell

But there’s also the genetic component of the immune system based on host glycans which are carbs/sugar feeding our microbes:

No, wait.
Did you just picked up five different sentences from three different books and mashed them together?
I simply just cannot parse this word salad.
And the article you linked to is completely irrelevant, unless you just wanted to remind us that viruses dock on glycoproteins. That's nice, but most of us already knew it.

Please elaborate. With citations.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status. This affects gut flora balance as the genes regulate host glycans making them susceptible to diabetes, but also viral-glycan interaction as posted above.

We seem to have gone from "Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with poor diets or poor santitation" to "Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with a particular common gut-enzyme blood antigen (and also Polynesians, because reasons)

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

We seem to have gone from “Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with poor diets or poor santitation” to “Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with a particular common gut-enzyme blood antigen (and also Polynesians, because reasons)

Yeah. Don;t forget people whose parents write books that have the word "chocolate" in the title, though.

I mean, that evidently puts you at such high risk that it can kill you two years before it even happens.

Pitiful Roald Dahl had a rough life and apparently put his children through a lot of pain. He was obsessed with candy and medicine. I wouldn't doubt he was feeding sweets to his daughter as she was battling measles. Of course, he was also a well-known bigot. And I wonder what kind of medicine his poor wife was taking as possible cause of her strokes. After all, so-called medicine is the 4th leading cause of death in the USA. Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2186961/Tessa-Dahl-Roald-Dahl…

Speaking of OCD, it's associated with mumps and schizophrenia.
http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/28/prevalence-autism-past-may…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2967113/

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Pitiful Roald Dahl had a rough life

[Citation required], and the Daily Fail does not qualify as a reputable or credible source.

and apparently put his children through a lot of pain.

[citation required.]

He was obsessed with candy and medicine.

[citation required.]

I wouldn’t doubt he was feeding sweets to his daughter as she was battling measles.

No citation is needed for your self-described conjecture.

Of course, he was also a well-known bigot.

[citation required.]

And I wonder what kind of medicine his poor wife was taking as possible cause of her strokes.

No citation needed for this self-describeed conjecture.

After all, so-called medicine is the 4th leading cause of death in the USA.

[citation required.]

Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin).

[citations required.]

By Bill Price (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

@keith

Thanks for saying that you are a bigot. Guess that you cannot proving your assertions, you have to rely on defaming people's character with your own shortcomings to boost yourself.

You are just a pitiable individual, and I truly feel sorry for your children, if you do have any, who have to be raised by such a vile individual.

I wouldn’t doubt
We have noticed. I imagine it simplifies life immensely.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin).

Oh, goody, Keith Bellend is trying to hook his moron caboose to Moulden's idiot train.

From The Jewish Chronicle- Roald Dahl: proudly antisemitic

Ah, yes, when all else fails, the classic irrelevant ad hom.

By Bill Price (not verified) on 30 Mar 2015 #permalink

I simply just cannot parse this word salad.

The funny thing is that he almost has an "out" for part of it, but he's never going to figure that out by himself.

@#242 --

Even if you take that article at its word, it doesn't accuse him of anything worse than being unable to sustain a series of sudden, unexpected traumatic losses that devastated his family without being negatively affected by them. As just about anyone would be.

I mean, did you read it?

I want to make one thing clear. My parents did their best. My father drove me to day school every single morning. Then, he wrote to me every day at boarding school – first at Roedean, which I hated, and Downe House near Newbury, Berkshire, which I loved. It was just day-to-day things – what the dogs were doing, funny things at home. He always managed to turn them into stories.

Even though he was present for me physically, he was not emotionally. bad luck, that I had been present both for my brother’s accident and my mother’s strokes. That my older sister Olivia had been the love of Daddy’s life. That both of us contracted measles, but that she had died.

I think he gave me drugs because he knew no other way to communicate with me to calm me down.

I had seen three different occasions when ambulances came and took away my beloved family never to return them – or to return them as very different people.

These days we know what post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is. I had it.

She doesn't even say that he was the cause of her pain. And she certainly doesn't say he was obsessed with sweets, or fed his children sugar, or anything of the kind.

He didn't write that book until two years after the death of his daughter. And now you're holding him responsible for his wife's strokes? All else aside, she was an independently functioning adult.

Seriously. Have a heart.

@#245 --

Even if those things had been said by someone who was not born in 1916 and raised in an era during which worse sentiments than that were more the rule than they were the exception, I'm not sure I would conclude that he or she was truly an antisemite simply for having said them.

I mean, they're more antisemitic than political condemnation of Israel needs to be. But he's mostly condemning Israeli conduct, not Jews.

Antisemitism doesn't cause measles anyway, however. So moot point.

ann, I'm only using the story of Roald Dahl to bring attention to the dietary/microbial mechanisms of disease. We all have our demons and I'm sure he could also be a great person and loving human being.

I doubt anyone here has ever factored sugar of the microbial cell wall in viral infection and how imbalanced flora makes one more prone to injury. This includes vaccine injury which is more common than anyone here is willing to admit. Most of you can't even acknowledge vaccine injury including death exists. Lives are being shattered.

Even the mighty Mayo Clinic doesn't acknowledge differences in people based on flora regarding why Somali people react to rubella vaccination with twice the antibodies when it's known Bacteroides dramatically induce high IgA production:
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-afri…
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1271/bbb.80612?url_ver=Z39.88-200…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell, what documentation dated before 1990 shows the MMR caused the issues you claim in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s?

Chris, did you miss my OCD dig at you at #242?
http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/28/prevalence-autism-past-may…

I'm still working on answering your question. I'm not a vaccine historian, but can assume the vastly increased vaccine schedule has a lot to do with it, i.e., administering MMR along with other vaccines, as previously stated. What were the differences in measuring autism? Age-based? What was coverage in the early days of MMR?

What about generational differences (microbial predisposition) due to environmental factors such as heavy use of glyphosate? We receive our flora from our mothers, so successive generations may become more vulnerable to vaccine injury.

Denmark associates MMR with autism with historical perspective beginning 1987:
http://www.jpands.org/vol9no3/goldman.pdf

And as previously stated, a change in the MMR is strongly associated with dramatic increases in autism in the 1990s.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

#251 Interesting study- Effects of Vitamin A Supplementation on Immune Responses and Correlation with Clinical Outcomes
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1195969/
WHO recommends Vit A supplementation for measles-All children in developing countries diagnosed with measles should receive two doses of vitamin A supplements, given 24 hours apart. This treatment restores low vitamin A levels during measles that occur even in well-nourished children and can help prevent eye damage and blindness. Vitamin A supplements have been shown to reduce the number of deaths from measles by 50%.
www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Keith Bell:

I’m not a vaccine historian

Gee, really? I'd never have guessed.

but can assume the vastly increased vaccine schedule has a lot to do with it

And you'd be wrong. "Too many, too soon" has been looked at and disproven.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/04/01/the-death-of-too-many-too-…

We receive our flora from our mothers, so successive generations may become more vulnerable to vaccine injury.
Supporting evidence definitely needed.

Denmark associates MMR with autism

False. In fact, horse droppings. A study performed in Denmark looked at every child born over several years. The sample size was over half a million. No difference between the autism rates of the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

And as previously stated, a change in the MMR is strongly associated with dramatic increases in autism in the 1990s.

The DSM-V changed the process for diagnosing autism. Also, citation needed for the "change in the MMR.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

#251 "Many children in developing countries have a disordered gut, which contributes to their poor response to oral vaccines, Kang said. They suffer from a complex syndrome that involves gut inflammation, altered gut microbiome, intestinal infections with several putative pathogens, impaired nutrition, and impaired growth, according to Chris Wilson, director of discovery at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. But understanding the underlying causes for this syndrome and why vaccines don’t work in this environment isn’t easy, he said.Malnutrition seems to cause the gut to fail to maintain its immune and barrier function from pathogens, causing diarrhea and infections. This causes further gut damage and affects the gut’s ability to absorb nutrients, which makes the malnutrition worse, Kang said."
www.iavireport.org/Back-Issues/Pages/IAVI-Report-15(6)-AGutResponsetoVa…

And as previously stated, a change in the MMR is strongly associated with dramatic increases in autism in the 1990s.

I take it you missed the part where regurgitating D'Ohlmsted didn't pan out so well.

I’m only using the story of Roald Dahl

All this digging up of corpses, you seem to have confused Respectful Insolence with Necrophiliacs Anonymous.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad, have you been breastfed yet? Better late than never.

Getcher bifidobacteria while you can, strongly associated with centenarians. They cross-feed butryate-producing clostridia. I suspect low bifidobacteria means higher risk of vaccine injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930426/
Impact of diet in shaping gut microbiota revealed by a comparative study in children from Europe and rural Africa
We can hypothesize that the reduction in richness we observe in EU compared with BF children, could indicate how the consumption of sugar, animal fat, and calorie-dense foods in industrialized countries is rapidly limiting the adaptive potential of the microbiota.

Narad, have you been breastfed yet? Better late than never.

In other words, you concede that you have no evidence whatever that the actual formulation was changed at any time, something that would require explicit regulatory approval, yet you just keep repeating the same thing anyway.

Are you going to get around to "host glycans ... are carbs/sugar feeding our microbes"? Given that this is your avowed specialty, the level of rank ignorance that you display on basic matters is astonishing.

Mr. Bell: "Chris, did you miss my OCD dig at you at #242?"

Not the data I seek, especially since a BMJ rapid response is not verifiable documentation. The MMR was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program. Now get to it.

Also, what is the ratio of the compensated NVICP claims to the total number of vaccines doses given in the USA since 2006? How big a number is it?

Also, the Midlands is in the UK, where there was not MMR vaccine being used until 1988. So that letter basically backs up that autism rates have not changed, it is just that they are being diagnosed now. Just like my son, who has just been recently diagnosed with autism, even though I was assured in 1991 he was not autistic. Apparently the criteria changed.

Also, Goldman and Yazbak are not qualified nor reputable. Goldman has a PhD in computer science from a diploma mill, and Yazbak defended a child murderer.

ken, that's great stuff. Regarding vitamin A and measles, beta carotene is converted to vitamin A in the presence of bile acid. Quality of bile acid is regulated by flora, especially the BSH of B. longum. So there's a root cause of vitamin A deficiency due to flora imbalance, especially when organ meats like liver are not part of the diet.

Narad, here ya go:
http://glycob.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/9/1038
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v10/n5/execsumm/nrmicro2746.html

It's how genes play a role in regulating microbial balance. Bifidobacteria are known to be low in some groups based on genes regulating secretor status:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0020113
So non-secretors found high in African Americans would be reduced in bifidobacteria, potentially at greater risk of vaccine injury. It's possible males have lower amounts of bifidobacteria than females, never studied.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

I’m only using the story of Roald Dahl to bring attention to the dietary/microbial mechanisms of disease.

No, you're now just trying to wriggle away from again proving that when you find yourself hemmed in by your own stupidity, you're left with nothing but your genuine nature, i.e., thoroughgoing asshοle, to fall back on.

Here you started with the comically brain-dead misreading of Kuss et al., which led you to say something stupid about poliovirus, and extended it with "I’d bet the same is true of measles," which – on top of the failed premise – makes no fυcking sense whatever.

Naturally, the thing to do is start babbling with gems such as "of course, he was also a well-known bigot" and Andrew Freaking Moulden: "Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin)."

This further demonstrates, by the way, that you're so g-ddamned stupid that you think 5-HT appears in brain by virtue of transport from the gut.

Chris, I'm very sorry to learn about your son. I would bet there's much that can be done for him to reverse symptoms. Let me know if you'd like to talk about it directly. My email address is on my recent article. And thank you for the education in general.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad, do me the favor of reading my two page article where I briefly discuss the origin of serotonin in the brain. I'm sure you'll have a field day.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

I would deduce that Dan Olmsted fabricated his “informal conversation with a Merck scientist”, who he claims gave him information that we now know is provably wrong: there was no change in the potency of the mumps vaccine.

This doesn't surprise me: when the father of one of the children in the Wakefield 98 fraud wrote to Olmsted and told him that Wakefield's claims regarding the child were an "outright fabrication", Olmsted lied on his website, omitting this information and pretending that the father criticised me.

Here is the letter:

http://briandeer.com/solved/dan-olmsted-child-11.pdf

By Brian Deer (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad, do me the favor of reading my two page article

No, you're free to spell it out here.

Gee you mean there was a reason that in the 1990s and 2000s there was all kinds of drug development for GI problems that were compounds that fit into serotonin receptors?

Who knew?

Mr. Bell: "I would bet there’s much that can be done for him to reverse symptoms."

You are an idiot. He is twenty six years old, and he was not diagnosed as a child because while he could not speak he had the audacity to smile like any other three year old when he was diagnosed in 1991 under the DSM III.

You seriously don't get that more forms of autism are covered under both the DSM IV and DSM V. The biggest difference between the two latest DSMs is that Aspergers and PDD-NOS are now both under the full autism spectrum umbrella. My son was disappointed that he did not "just" have Asperger's, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.

If you don't know this bit of basic information, why would anyone believe anything you say.

Plenty of geniuses have had delayed speech including Einstein. Does your son have any GI symptoms? Has he ever had a PCR stool test? Recent article talks about up to 40% of those with autism also suffer epilepsy:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/29/autism-ill-health-l…

Narad, where's Science Mom when you need her? I'd also recommend Bimuno out of the UK (Kreb, I think you'll also like this product), a GOS prebiotic to feed bifidobacteria.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Popular myth of Einstein speech delay: Unsupported by reality.

When he was between two and three, [Einstein] formed the ambition to speak in whole sentences... Then, when it seemed all right, he would say it out loud.

(Pais, 1982, p.36)

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

There is an Einstein family story from two well referenced biographies, The Private Lives of Albert Einstein by Roger Highfield and Paul Carter, 1993 and Albert Einstein by Albrecht Folsing, 1997, translated from German by Ewald Osers. That story describes Albert’s comment when he was told he had a new baby sister to play with. He said “But where are the wheels?” AND he was 2 years and 8 months old when he said that. At that age my son had a dozen poorly enunciated single syllable approximations.

I learned to hate the lie about Einstein over twenty years ago. Just as I hated being told to read Thomas Sowell's Late-Talking Children.

Mr. Bell, when you have dug as big as a hole you as you have, it is time to put away the shovel.

Did your son receive MMR? I thought the Danish autism study analyzing MMR beginning 1987 was quite good Have you ever considered microbial predisposition since you've had mumps twice? I maintain there's much that can be done for your son you may not have considered. Plenty of people have reversed autism and associated epilepsy.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

@ Bell

when it’s known Bacteroides dramatically induce high IgA production:

You will have to make up your mind at some point.

First, way upthread, you tell us that gram-neg bacteria are promoting virus infection and a gut flora with these bacteria is "unbalanced".

Now, you quote an article about freeling gram-neg Bacteroides enhancing IgA production.
(interesting article, BTW. Thanks, I learned something.
See? Was it that hard to substantiate your claims?)

So, which is it? Should we have gram-neg bacteria in our guts, or not?

By Helianthus (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Narad, where’s Science Mom when you need her? I’d also recommend Bimuno out of the UK (Kreb, I think you’ll also like this product), a GOS prebiotic to feed bifidobacteria.

Your continued evasions are duly noted, Bellend.

ann, I’m only using the story of Roald Dahl to bring attention to the dietary/microbial mechanisms of disease.

Well.

Unless it's your contention that the words a parent writes on a page have the power to affect the dietary/microbial mechanisms of a disease that killed his daughter two years earlier:

There's nothing you know about his story that does that.

reversed autism
Related to the Reverse Vampires, I dare say.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Did your son receive MMR?"

This is amazing. You just keep digging. How, pray tell, does a vaccine given after a child is a year old cause neonatal seizures?

So, again, where is that verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that the MMR caused the issues you claim in the USA (do make sure you get the country right) during the 1970s and 1980s?

Serotonin imbalance of gut origin leads to glutamate excitotoxicity which in the prone sleeping position leads to SIDS when CO2 stimulates the serotonergic system. And also associated sugar imbalances leading to hypoglycemic seizure. And other ways such as clostridial toxin breach of BBB. Does your son have epilepsy? MMR in 1989?
http://www.jpands.org/vol9no3/goldman.pdf

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Amplified insulin secretion via alcohols produced by overgrown gammaproteobacteria and/or fungi lead to reactive hypoglycemic seizure. Was he preterm?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Do you even know what neonatal seizures are? How does a vaccine only given after age one cause SIDS, which by definition means death of an infant of unknown reason under age one year? And how does breast milk cause sugar imbalances?

And why would I care about a paper published on an anti-reality political screed by a guy who bought his computer science PhD and another who helped get a baby killer out of jail?

Since you keep digging, you have a new task: provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the American MMR causes more seizures than measles.

Did your son suffer Infantile Spasm currently treated from the neck up? You've misconstrued what I stated about SIDS and breast milk. The pertussis and pneumococcal vaccines are infamously associated with causing seizure.

Ever try a low carb diet with him?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

What do you recommend to reverse an intractable-to-treatment seizure disorder for those who have Lennox Gastaut seizures, Keith Bell.

(hint) low carb diets do not reverse seizures of any type; strictly adhered to ketogenic diets only "work" for a small percentage of people.

Narad, see #265.

I only have a moment for this, but there's one part that's such a howler I can't let it pass. The first link in #265 is

h[]tp://glycob.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/9/1038

Hearken back, it you will, to #230:

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status. This affects gut flora balance as the genes regulate host glycans making them susceptible to diabetes, but also viral-glycan interaction as posted above.

For this assertion, Keith refers the reader to "Blood Type Diet" D'Adamo. Now, let's grab a quick passage from Marcobal et al. (citations omitted):

"FUT2, known as the secretor locus in humans, encodes a polymorphic α1-2-fucosyltransferase. Non-secretors, which are homozygous for non-functional alleles and lack α1-2-fucose residues in secretory tissues and on mucus, are at increased risk for several diseases including Crohn's disease and celiac disease and have gut communities that are distinct from secretors, who possess the functional fucosyltransferase."

Now, let us visit D'Adamo's definition of the term:

"A 'Non-secretor' is someone, who through their own genetics, carries a gene which inhibits them from secreting their ABO blood type in their secretions. By secretions we mean saliva, semen, etc. Eighty-five percent of the population are secretors, so non-secretors are in a minority. If you are a secretor, you express more of your blood type in your body.

G—le is not your friend, Keith.

Mr. Bell: "The pertussis and pneumococcal vaccines are infamously associated with causing seizure"

Even before a kid got their first vaccine? That is remarkable. Especially years before one of those vaccines was available, and since due to the neonatal seizures the first pertussis containing vaccine he got was almost twenty years later. Wow. You are very stupid.

You really need to put that shovel away, dude.

Narad: "G—le is not your friend, Keith"

That is very true.

Bellend's #224 also immediately collapses as a consequence of this gaffe:

There is evidence that island obesity is not a recent phenomenon. But there’s also the genetic component [D'Amado] of the immune system based on host glycans which are carbs/sugar [which mucin is not, but he stopped with the first sentence of the W—pedia 'glycan' entry] feeding our microbes [Marcobal et al.]: [completely irrelevant reference]

This is a classic.

@Bell

Heli, of course you need gram-negative bacteria, but in balance.

The answer I expected.
And, pray tell, how do you know what this "balance" is?

For all we know, we may need a level of gram-neg bugs to have the positive effect on the immune system as described in the article in #251, which will turn out to be higher than the minimal level at which these bacteria will be helping virus infection, if your hypothesized mechanism turns out to be true.
Before listening to you and grafting myself some bifido, I think I will just keep eating my greens and regular yoghurt and let my gut flora sorts itself out.

On the other hand, thanks for the links. Again, interesting readings.
I noticed, in the second study, the authors claimed they didn't found much difference between bacteria population following normal birth versus c-section. It's funny, a few months ago someone published a book on the microbiome differences between children born one way or another (albeit after normal pregnancies, not ones complicated by diabetes), and one of his major finding was that there were differences. Although the same author noted that the microbiomes between the two groups converged after one year or such.
I would agree that there is plenty of things we don't know about our microbiomes, and it's a much worthy area of research, but I cannot help feeling we are still in the preliminary stages of discovery. It's more buzz than science, right now. Well, I'm no expert, so my judgement is of limited value.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 31 Mar 2015 #permalink

Apparently, Narad has never heard of mucin oligosaccharides. Makes one wonder what else he doesn't know. He's too proud to acknowledge he didn't know our microbes consume host glycans, instead taking us of on yet another meaningless tangent about the source of a 1950 secretor status chart.. I'm still a fan, however condescendingly trenchant.

Chris, last I heard the CDC and AAP base their cruel vaccine protocol on the work of an criminal fugitive:
http://sharylattkisson.com/researcher-who-dispelled-vaccine-autism-link…
So, your son suffered seizures before any vaccination. Sorry to hear that. That's what I call microbial predisposition. Dravet syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination, btw. I'd bet he's suffered gastrointestinal symptoms his entire life. There's a lot you can do for him and, hopefully, he'll take matters into his own hands sooner than later. Anticonvulsants only mask the problem and don't work half the time, often exacerbating seizure disorders. Did he suffer any negative reaction to the pertussis vaccine he received possibly leading to this recent autism diagnosis? Any regression?

Heli, you're a refreshing person on this page. Ever hear of PCR stool testing? Organic acid urine testing for microbial metabolites?

lilady, LGS Foundation has yet to receive a funding request to study gut origin of seizure. But they're interested; I spoke with them about it last week. I don't believe mechanism of the ketogenic diet is really about ketones, but flora shift. Plenty of evidence. "A more recent report demonstrated a significant rate of seizure freedom (30%) after 12 months in patients with LGS (Kang et al., 2005):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676569/#R13

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell:

Chris, last I heard the CDC and AAP base their cruel vaccine protocol on the work of an criminal fugitive.

You heard wrong.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Young Julian Frost of small head. Last we communicated you were flying out of the womb wearing a cape, hitting the nearest wall. I apologize for hurting your feelings and destroying your childhood image of Roald Dahl, the bigoted sugar monster.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

And the fool refuses to put away the shovel and stop digging.

If my son had been born a few years earlier, he would have been institutionalized for not being able to speak as a three year old. Instead he got lots of speech therapy and a diagnosis of a speech disorder. He has normal intelligence but other deficits, and diagnoses have changed over the years, and still more with DSM V.

Please clarify, Chris, did he receive HepB vaccination at birth or before age 3?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

While the antivax crowd continues bleating "THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN" at any mention of Andrew Wakefield's transgressions, one wonders why they haven't dropped poor old Poul in favor of the CDC employee(s) who were charged in an alleged child molestation/bestiality case (starting back in 2011).

That should have been so much juicier a case to harp on (though last I heard, one suspect had been cleared and the other was a long way from being convicted):

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/lawyer-for-cdc-official-accused-of-m…

And I bet there is someone at Orac's workplace (maybe in the laundry department, or more likely Administration) who has a prior criminal record, a stack of unpaid parking tickets or who once lived in Indiana. Can't Olmsted, Attkisson or another ace reporter come up with such evidence and discredit this blog once and for all?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bell: "Please clarify, Chris, did he receive HepB vaccination at birth or before age 3?"

I gave you his age, it is up to you to figure it out. Then no more prying into anyone else's medical history. You have demonstrated you are totally incompetent.

#297 Excuse me? What country were you living in? Institutionalized for not being able to speak? This, I don't believe.

Keith Bell, where did I mention that my "son" has Lennox-Gastaut seizures and where did I mention that the individual who has L-G seizures has Dravet Syndrome...or autism? Could it be that you heard about Dravet Syndrome being diagnosed as the real cause of L-G seizures following vaccination with the whole cell pertussis vaccine? The individual's L-G seizures started after birth before any vaccines were administered and are caused by being born with zero platelets which caused a brain bleed and the development of a porencephalitic cyst which covers a large portion of the left hemisphere of his brain.

A real doctor would never make assumptions, about the etiology of seizures of any type and not attempt to tie his bullsh!t advice into his pet theory about gut flora.

No one believes you just happened to discuss L-G seizures with someone at the L-G Syndrome Foundation last week.

Keith Bell:

I apologize for hurting your feelings and destroying your childhood image of Roald Dahl, the bigoted sugar monster.

The only thing you have destroyed is your credibility.

By Julian Frost (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ Bell

I thank you for your kind words, but giving you a chance to elaborate on your assertions was just the right thing to do.
That doesn't mean I'll give you a pass when you keep bullsh!ting us. An activity I strongly suspect you are doing right now.

Apparently, Narad has never heard of mucin oligosaccharides. Makes one wonder what else he doesn’t know. He’s too proud to acknowledge he didn’t know our microbes consume host glycans,

What does the freel this has to do with anything?

To some extend, you are right, most people here don't know much about glycoproteins. I will tell you why: not only it's a very specialized area of research, but it's also a freakishly complicated one.
The regulars could make fun of people ignoring basic chemistry, like sodium chloride being the name for table salt, but they don't mock people for ignoring highly arcane science. You are showing the very arrogance and religious fervor you were claiming is ours.

So, since you claim to have some insight, unpack.
What's all this furor about host glycans and bacteria?

By Helianthus (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

#297 I have to admit they are pathologizing too many children.
It's sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys. If he is not seriously depressed what's the point of that diagnosis. It is helpful if it makes him eligible for enriched programs for whatever limitations he has.

#301 What country do you live in that never at any point in history warehoused the developmentally disabled in institutions?

I think at least here part of the "OMG where did all these disabled people come from they didn't exist before" is that they stopped putting them all in homes for the disabled and started providing community-based services where kids could live at home as long as possible.

I mean maybe one country or two could gave gone from locking them in the attic or letting them starve on an ice flow to fully modern community-base care in one big leap but I thought most at least for some time did the institution thing.

I know a lot has changed but it really wasn't that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues.

ken: "What country were you living in? Institutionalized for not being able to speak? This, I don’t believe."

Look up the Willowbrook School for starters (there was a news documentary on it in the late 1960s). Then look up the "Education for All Handicapped Children Act" of 1975:
http://commons.trincoll.edu/edreform/2012/05/the-education-for-all-hand…

There are stories of deaf kids and intellectually normal kids in wheel chairs being refused access to public schools. It was very common to warehouse children in schools for the deaf, blind and "feeble minded." Just go watch the movie "Mr. Holland's Opus" to see how recent that option was presented.

ken, your lack of historical knowledge is quite telling. The point is that things have changed greatly in even the last ten years on autism diagnoses, which is why my son and many of his special ed. preschool classmates are only recently getting an autism diagnosis.

ken: "It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys"

Ken, you are continuing to show your ignorance. While his IEP gave him the services he needed in high school, it was not complete, especially for the social communication aspect. In order to get supported housing, it turns out "autism" is the magic word for social services, plus the detailed evaluation.

Ooops, the quote "I know a lot has changed but it really wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues" was from Kaymarie.

I guess I just saw the first initial.

#307 Parents yes parents put their kids away. I had an aunt with a braindamaged child born in 1960 (NJ) who would never consider this. My friend taught in a school for the deaf 1970 NYC, another worked in south NJ at an institution. I was a caseworker in NYC 1969 ,had some child abuses cases reported, but no one forcibly took someones child away.

"but no one forcibly took someones child away."

Who said that happened? What the schools did was just refuse admitting a child, and then strongly suggest a "suitable" institution. Any child who could not do something as "simple as talking" could be considered “uneducable.” See The Legislative and Litigation History of Special Education.

lilady, reread my post as what I said about a "son", etc. was clearly directed at Chris, not you. What do you think causes Thrombocytopenia (low platelets)? Infection. Provide your email address and I'll forward my conversation with LGSF.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22443637
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1059131114001691
You say the problem began before vaccination? I don't buy it considering protocol begins within hours of birth. It's barbaric here in the USA. Europe doesn't suffer such madness.

Heli, I'm sure you're capable of answering that question. I've already unpacked enough here. Good day all. And thanks to Chris for being so forthcoming. And thanks to nobody here for reading my new article:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain

p.s.- Kreb, your views on sugar consumption are primitive. Here's an article published today:
http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/is-sugar-the-new-tobacco/Content?oid=…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

#307 You seem to be of superior intelligence. Why didn't you tutor him? Or are you just railing about the unfairness of it all?

ken, are you really that clueless? One thing I learned about having a child with multiple issues is how little I do know.

Something you seem to not understand, since you are completely clueless that you are completely clueless.

@Chris #310 happy to own Kaymaries's quote ;-)

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

#297 You said "If my son had been born a few years earlier, he would have been institutionalized for not being able to speak as a three year old. Instead he got lots of speech therapy and a..........." This was your statement. So you would have instutionalized you child?

#314 You said he is of normal intelligence. What issues would have institutionalized him? Not speaking? WTF are you talking about.?

Ken, howsabout you f*ck off already?

@ Kaymarie

I know a lot has changed but it really wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues.

A French actress once reported in an interview about her family life on how, a few decades ago, as she was walking with her disabled son, they met the old lady next door who, upon seeing her son, primly told her:

"When one has a child like this, madam, one hides it!"

She was quite glad that our western societies have evolved and became more inclusive.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ken - given the lack of social services for those individuals back in that time, being institutionalized was perhaps the only option available to many families...especially ones that lacked financial resources.

Before making a bunch of stupid assumptions, why don't you read about the Institutional system that used to exist in this country?

Ken, have you ever considered not being an asshole?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

In the early 80s my son was born with severe spina bifida and hydrocephalus. The hospital staff put him on clear fluids only, told us to leave him at the hospital and "pretend you never had a baby" as he wouldn't survive. Instead we took him home. He is now 34 years old and living independently.

Shortly afterwards his mother got talking to an old lady in the street. She said she used to be a nurse and added, with a disparaging look at my son, "in my day we would just drop them in a bucket". Attitudes have, thankfully, changed.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

#322 Good God! Sorry to hear this! In my hometown (nj) they were more compassionate. Growing up in the 50's I remember the sweet little girl with the very large head. No one would say anything like that. In my HS we had a girl with severe scaling psoriasis that left her skin bright red. She also had an odor but we were all kind to her.

Jeebustapdancingchrist. . . are there any successful treatments for f**faceitis?

Chris, last I heard the CDC and AAP base their cruel vaccine protocol on the work of an criminal fugitive:

Meanwhile in the factual (non-Attkisson) world, Thorsen is not a criminal, is employed in Denmark in a non-fugitive capacity, and the papers in which he was a minor author were not the bases for anyone's vaccine protocol. Kevin has struck a trifecta of misinformed stupidity.
He seems to be a bit needy for attention.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

I'm actually amazed by ken.

Hey, ken, I was born in the 1960's. We still had the "retard" room (sorry for the term, all, but that's what we called it back then) where all children who didn't fit into a regular classroom setting were kept. We had no interaction with them except to pass by the door and stare at them like they were monkeys in the zoo. They didn't eat with us, they didn't have playground time with us. They basically arrived at the school, were locked into their room, and let out back onto their special bus at the end of the day. We didn't even know a single name of a child in there - OR even the teacher's name.

Kids who probably now would be considered mildly autistic (I had one classmate who would throw violent temper tantrums when stressed) but who could talk, walk, and hear, were put into regular classrooms. They rarely thrived there, and often ended up being expelled. (The local Catholic schools had a thriving business taking in the kids the public schools kicked out as impossible discipline problems. I don't know if the families paid - which, with all the blue-collar families might have been a financial problem - or if the school district had a special arrangement with them and paid part or all of the cost.)

But we never had "different" kids in our classes - not even kids who had ambulatory issues only (a broken limb was different). Everyone was either dumped into the "retard" room or not in the public school.

ken: "So you would have instutionalized you child?"

How would I know? I was never given the option because of a law enacted eighteen years before his birth. It was at that time that I asked the preschool teacher what happened to kids like him, and she said most likely only allowed in an institution. This was just after autism became part of the disabilities served under IDEA in 1990, it took a few years to become policy.

From ken's CDC link: "The prevalence of any DD in 1997–2008 was 13.87% "

Anyone with a modicum of statistical knowledge will know this is actually less than the percentage of the normal distribution below the first standard deviation.

From clueless ken: "Sorry to hear this! In my hometown (nj) they were more compassionate. "

You really don't know that, since you were a child. No one knew about Arthur Miller's child until shortly before is death. The 1950s was the time of "family secrets", some of which only get uncovered years later. It took some digging to find out what happened to one of Henrietta Lacks' children.

The fact remains that there were places like Willowbrook and others like Belchertown. Your anecdotes do not wipe out all of history, it just shows you are a clueless jerk.

#312 There were gains prior to 1975-
"In 1963, Kennedy established the Division of Handicapped Children and Youth and revitalized the Bureau of Education for the Handicapped. He sent missions to study international programs for disabled children and pushed for greater rights for the disabled, especially those with mental disabilities. Grassroots movements were instrumental in creating awareness of the inequalities facing the disabled but the movement also benefited greatly by having someone of Kennedy’s stature behind it."
www.commons.trincoll.edu/edreform/2012/05/the-education-for-all-handica…

#330
Yes, you have superior anecdotes. You supply insufficient info then attack when someone questions exactly what you mean.
I really feel sorry that you all have to shore up your egos by nasty remarks.

ken: "Yes, you have superior anecdotes."

The blue words are links, click on them. The link you gave was a more formal paper of the one you just posted.

Mr. Bell: "What do you think causes Thrombocytopenia (low platelets)? Infection"

Yes, mostly from measles, which is one reason we try to prevent it by the MMR.

"Provide your email address"

You are obviously too stupid to understand why I will not do that.

Keith Bell. What kind of doctor are you? You never even inquired about the individual's age. He is 39 years old...born in 1975 before the implementation of the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine and born seven years before the development and licensing of the first hepatitis vaccine. You're a health care professional wannabe, a poseur and a liar.

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4205.pdf

Ken, do you realize you are commenting on a thread with people who have developmentally disabled children and who are far more educated about the federal and state laws enacted to educate those children and to provide funding for the development of alternative living arrangements outside of those large institutions?

I should perhaps point out that my experiences were in the UK, but from what I have read things were much the same in the rest of the (so-called) developed world. I remember reading in Stephen Jay Gould's books about the horrific way the disabled were treated relatively recently (very recently in some countries). Eugenics was popular among many otherwise great people - Marie Stopes and George Bernard Shaw spring to mind, but there were many others. For some reason eugenics went out of fashion when Nazi Germany slid right the way down its slippery slope.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@Kreb - and we are still talking about compensating victims of the American Eugenics program, where those of "feeble-mind" were routinely sterilized....

ken: “It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys”

Ken, you are continuing to show your ignorance. While his IEP gave him the services he needed in high school, it was not complete, especially for the social communication aspect. In order to get supported housing, it turns out “autism” is the magic word for social services, plus the detailed evaluation.

No kidding. ken would probably say that it's sad that I have to think of myself as disabled --that VA check every month takes away the sting, though.

@Lawrence
Not so long ago they were still finding old ladies, tucked out of sight in institutions, who had been forcibly sterilized and institutionalized for getting pregnant out of wedlock when they were girls. Maybe it still happens. IIRC Scandinavia was particularly bad in this regard.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell isn't a doctor. According to greenmedinfo.com he's a veteran of the recycling industry and is about as qualified to speak on medical issues as your local sanitation worker.

@Kreb - it was a "not-so-little" secret, especially across the American South - particularly in Virginia, North Carolina and Mississippi, where active programs victimized thousands, if not tens of thousands - most of whom are no longer alive to testify to the horrors they were subjected to, of course, completely against their will.

Once you scratch the surface, you really begin to see exactly how many people disappeared into the "Institutional" system, and those who were carefully hidden away by their families.

@lilady 335 re: “What kind of doctor are you?”
I’ll join a-non in answering for him. He is not a doctor.

By CTGeneGuy (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

@#331 --

Meanwhile, his sister Rosemary was hidden away in an institution, which he used to explain by saying she was reclusive, back when he was Senator Kennedy.

It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys

What an absolutely awful thing to say. I mean, talk about bigotry.

It's not an either/or, ken.

@ann - which is why it pisses me off when anti-vaxers try to claim that these people didn't exist in the past.....they were always there, hidden out of sight and certainly not discussed in "polite company."

@CTGeneGuy #342

So the oriental medicine guy is also the veteran of the recycling industry? Or are they two different people with the same wacky views, which would be a stunning coincidence...

As I have noted, Mr. Bell is very good at recycling bovine excrement.

#344 You completely took this out of context. This is what Chris said #273 "He is twenty six years old, and he was not diagnosed as a child because while he could not speak he had the audacity to smile like any other three year old when he was diagnosed in 1991 under the DSM III.
You seriously don’t get that more forms of autism are covered under both the DSM IV and DSM V. The biggest difference between the two latest DSMs is that Aspergers and PDD-NOS are now both under the full autism spectrum umbrella. My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three."
I suffered from depression- I would not like to have my identity
known and broadcasted as a depressive. I sometimes relapse.
My point-"labels"- good only for increased services for that diagnostic category. Not an "identity" as in he's an "OCD" etc.
even though labels explain atypical behaviors.

It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys

You completely took this out of context.

Well, can you clarify, ken, how - instead of as "someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys" - will someone diagnosed with autism have to think of themselves?

a-non: Wow, it is a coincidence! I googled Keith Bell and just assumed the deep woo acupuncturist that popped up was our Keith (for obvious reasons). But you're right - the greenmedinfo bio is clearly the recycling guy.

Sorry Virginia acupuncturist guy, for confusing you with someone who is deep into pseudoscience and...wait...

By CTGeneGuy (not verified) on 01 Apr 2015 #permalink

Ken seems to think that life for the disabled back in the "day" was nothing but wine and roses it seems......what arrogance and stupidity combined.

#351 Wow this is such a dumb remark with no basis in reality I can only assume you like to bait people with outrageous statements. I think you are the arrogant and stupid one. I worked in social services in NYC for 10 years in the 70's and was well aware of problems of the disaabled having WWII vets,children with sickle cell anemia,schizophenics, mentally retarded, alcoholics etc on my caseload who had to depend on Public Assistance.

Then you've just proven that your statements before are completely off-base and stupid.

If you do have that experience, then you should know better - your remarks up to this point have been nothing but trollish and vile.

I think the Kennedy's kept Rosemary in some of the finer institutions after her royally botched lobotomy, but for most I'll bet it was grim as hell.

aaarrgghh. . . an apostrophe gnome assaulted my post. ㋡

I suffered from depression- I would not like to have my identity
known and broadcasted as a depressive. I sometimes relapse.
My point-“labels”- good only for increased services for that diagnostic category. Not an “identity” as in he’s an “OCD” etc.
even though labels explain atypical behaviors.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I'm a depressive myself, and I don't exactly want that "identity" broadcasted, I suppose, but I am open to a reasonable degree IRL about the fact that I have/have had mental health issues. I think it's important, actually, to be more open about these things, because making them into closet skeletons only adds to the general feeling of shame and stigma a lot of people feel about them, feelings that lead a lot of people not to get help when they need it, and subsequently to extra pain and suffering, possibly death, etc. I have to admit that I am not open with most people IRL about things like past suicide attempts, hospital stays, etc., since the stigma around those things is still pretty damaging, actually. It's apparently still funny to make jokes about "crazy" people being locked up, etc., after all.

I mean, labels can be useful sometimes. All that language even is is a collection of labels, and it's how we communicate with each other. Is "depressive" an "identity"? I don't know, but it's a word that references a thing I experience, maybe partially as a consequence of the way I am generally wired.

In any case, you've repeatedly failed to show any sort of sensitivity, intelligence, nuance, or actual compassion here, particularly in regards to the way you've treated Chris, so I'm not sure who I'm actually saying this to, but whatever.

@#348 --

I second the request for clarification. Because I saw the context. And I still can't see another way to read that sentence.

If you wouldn't say "It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as diabetic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to find meaningful activities that he enjoys," why would you say it about autism?

It's stigmatizing, bordering on dehumanizing.

ken @ 52: If you really worked in social services in NYC during the 1970s, then you must be aware of the deplorable conditions that existed in the Willowbrook institution located in the borough of Staten Island, which required Federal Court intervention and the signing of the Willowbrook Consent Decree:

http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/archives/consent.htm

Senator Robert Kennedy (Dem-NY) visited Willowbrook during 1965 and appropriately described it as "a snake pit". Geraldo Rivera, a local TV reporter gained entrance into Willowbrook, as the "Willowbrook Class" had just filed suit in Federal Court. Surely you must remember the film that showed the deplorable conditions that existed at Willowbrook that was shown on New York television, ken:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWDt5IE8RPI

JP: "particularly in regards to the way you’ve treated Chris"

Thank you. That sentiment is quite appreciated.

ann; "I second the request for clarification. Because I saw the context. And I still can’t see another way to read that sentence.":

Thanks to you also. Tomorrow I need to call a mail order pharmacy because they will not fill his heart meds due to outdated insurance information (despite my efforts to update it). I will introduce myself as his authorized representative, but because I have not signed the paperwork to that effect specifically to them... I will force dear son to give it to them himself. It will both give him some experience in self-advocacy and illustrate how the system works for those with speech/language disabilities.

@Chris --

You're welcome.

@ken --

First, and most importantly:

I'm not saying you're a bad person, or trying to make you feel bad. Please take my word for that. It's just that if you were responding to this...

My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.

...you make the situation worse not better by endorsing the stigma.

Secondly, by way of illustrating the point:

I suffered from depression- I would not like to have my identity
known and broadcasted as a depressive. I sometimes relapse.

I'm sorry that you suffer from depression, and glad to hear that you were able to avail yourself of an effective treatment.

But if you grew up in the '50s, it should be well within your living memory how vanishingly slight the chances of that would have been a very short time ago. Because until very recently, depression was popularly regarded as a character defect and/or sign of weakness, due to stigma. Especially in a woman. (Hysterical, neurotic, etc.)

I mean, ineffective as antidepressants are for many people (and overprescribed as they are, too), they're a workable option for some. And forty years ago, it would have been even more definitively unavailable than CBT. At least that existed.

That's progress of a kind.

So there you have it. Calling things what they are without prejudice is not a cure-all. Obviously. But it's a start.

Apparently, Narad has never heard of mucin oligosaccharides. Makes one wonder what else he doesn’t know. He’s too proud to acknowledge he didn’t know our microbes consume host glycans, instead taking us of on yet another meaningless tangent about the source of a 1950 secretor status chart..

There's so much comedic posturing in here that it's going to take hours, which I didn't have yesterday and probably won't have tonight. I'll start with the easy one.

Bellend tosses out out "secretor status" for no discernible reason in #230, citing D'Amado citing Genetics and the Races of Man citing "Matson, G. A., and C. L. Piper, A. 1. P. A., 5, 357-368 (1947)."

Add competence in citation to the list of talents that D'Amado the Lesser, naturopath, does not possess.

"A. 1. P. A." turns out to be the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, with 1947 being – as W—pedia informs me – still within the tenure of its founding editor, who forbade standard deviations. It's DOI 10.1002/ajpa.1330050307, but I'll save you the trouble.

This is clearly embedded in D'Amado's boneheaded worldview in which O is the first blood type, etc., time to make up diets! This is far dumber than the competing pseudo-evolutionary claims of both vegetarian and "paleo" True Believoroonies.

And now, even the easy part necessitates a break. It will pick up with Keith's previously spamvertised "Part 2."

* "It should be mentioned also that A₂ is lacking or extremely rare among native Hawaiians (Nigg, '30) in which the distribution of the 4 blood groups resembles that of the Blackfeet Indians.... It seems that the incidence of A₂ is low or absent in the more primitive and isolated races."

(and also Polynesians, because reasons)

“It should be mentioned also that A₂ is lacking or extremely rare among native Hawaiians (Nigg, ’30) in which the distribution of the 4 blood groups resembles that of the Blackfeet Indians…. It seems that the incidence of A₂ is low or absent in the more primitive and isolated races.”

Eeeew.

Eeeew.

I thought the title of the journal and the year would suffice as a tip-off to the nature of the literature. You know what the WAPF logo is supposed to signify, right?

You know what the WAPF logo is supposed to signify, right?

I did not, but now I do. Bleh.

@ ann

Calling things what they are without prejudice is not a cure-all. Obviously. But it’s a start.

Precisely.
I had the feeling that two issues were conflated in the conversation.
On one hand, there is the accuracy of the diagnostic done for one's issues.
On the other hand, there is the level of "broadcasting" of said diagnostic.

The latter may lead to social stigma and peer pressure, including "you have to think of yourself as broken" issues. One can hope it can also lead to getting support and help from friends.

The former is about knowing that ails you or yours. If one wants to "take control of your own health", to use an alt-med motto, getting a proper diagnostic is the mandatory start. Pussyfooting around frightening words is not helping.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 02 Apr 2015 #permalink

What both Narad and Bellend are neglecting in this disscussion is the effect of the macrobiome.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

XKCD for the win. ;-) Thank you for that chuckle, MA.

By Calli Arcale (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#360 "My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three."
Ann said…you make the situation worse not better by endorsing the stigma.
My point was that it says very little about the person. This blog villifies Jake Crosby who happens to have Asperger's.

I second Calli, Militant Agnostic!!!

I had just been discussing the putative benefits of yogurt with my wife before I came to the computer and read your link.
It got my day off to a good start.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

My point was that it says very little about the person. This blog villifies Jake Crosby who happens to have Asperger’s.

Maybe, but it's not because Crosby has Asperger's - it's because of his actions and general cluelessness. A person with autism or a mental illness or whatever can still be a dummy or lack a moral compass or do awful things - just like a "normal" person can. The whole point is not to conflate having some condition or other with being a crappy person.

Wow he sure hates someone....Is this true?
Perhaps Orac’s simplistically dismissive answer can best be explained by the 30,000-euro grant he received directly from Bayer – a pharmaceutical company that  not only used thimerosal in its Rh-immunoglobulins, but also produces GMO seeds.
www.ageofautism.com/2013/04/watch-david-gorski-squirm.html#more

#370 #371 Obviously.

I don't think enough has been said about parents like mine,and like the others here,who went against the conventional wisdom of the day to keep their children out of homes an institutions back in the day.

I know I have told this before,but I am probably about the same age as MI Dawn.I had many serious developmental delays,learning disabilities,and behavioral issues.I was diagnosed with autism in 1971,when the DSM-II was in use.I was diagnosed right after my second major regression,when a severe head banging meltdown in gym class triggered an evaluation that led to my autism diagnosis.My diagnosis was such,that the psychiatrists and psychologists that did the evaluation thought I was severe enough to be put in the infamous Rosewood State Hospital,which was just down the road from where we lived at the time.

http://www.asylumprojects.org/index.php?title=Rosewood_State_Hospital

Rosewood itself has an interesting connection to Leo Kanner and the history of autism.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/…

My mother was so appalled and scared by this,that we went to court to keep me out.I spent a couple of years in and out of the special education "retard rooms" of the time,so I know all to well what these classrooms were like.Children with intellectual disabilities were thrown in with kids who were simply trouble makers,who would no doubt spend the rest of their lives in trouble with the law.It was chaos,and no one learned anything.

It was about this time I also developed my many serious medical problems,that would remain undiagnosed until my late 40s and 50s.Cerebral folate deficiency,inborn errors of metabolism,and mitochondrial disease.It was only because I lived with my mother until she died,that I was able to survive to where medical science could identify my problems,but I nearly died several times along the way.

One big problem with the anti vaccine movement is they are completely ignorant,one might say willfully so,of the way disabled people were treated,warehoused,and ignored by society not that long ago in our history.This is one reason why the likes of Anne Daschel,and the rest flying monkeys at AoA can get away with saying what they do.Daschel and AoA are definitely some of the worst,but Safe Minds and the rest are not that far behind.They completely gloss over the fact there are those like liladay and Krebiozen here who were fighting in the trenches long before anybody knew who Andrew Wakefield was.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ken:
Care to explain how much of that money would he personally see as opposed to, say, paying for equipment and for running the lights and water and for supplies and for research assistants and for sweeping the floors and for lots of other researchy things?

By justthestats (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#370 #371 Obviously.

Well, it sure didn't seem like it was obvious to you, ken. You were apparently objecting any sort of criticism of Jake Crosby because he "happens to have Asperger's."

Actually, like many cranks, you seem to have difficulty understanding causal relationships in general; I have remarked before that a lot of cranks and quacks and what-have-you may, on occasion, even have their facts relatively straight, but they seem to have problems with the understanding and correct usage of the words "thus" and "therefore."

For instance, in the several-years-old bizarre conspiracy theorizing of Crosby's that you linked to, he is correct that Orac once received a 30,000 euro grant from Bayer. However, he then somehow leaps to the conclusion that he is therefore a PHARMA SHILL and also, since Bayer has some tangential relationship to to GMOs and Orac received a grant through Bayer for breast cancer research, Orac is also therefore a GMO shill or something. If you can't see the flaws in logic and thinking there, I don't know what to tell you.

#377 I find extreme bias on both this blog and AOA.

Yes, anti-vax cranks both here and at AoA show extreme bias.

Roger @374: I thought the name Rosewood sounded familiar. My brother's elementary school was right next door, so we occasionally drove through the grounds. When I saw it (in the mid to late 90's) most of the buildings were boarded up.

At one point they housed a few mentally ill patients with criminal records, but one escaped and attacked a rabbi, so they stopped that program. (My brother's school had to go on lockdown.)

It always struck me as a weird and creepy place.

By JustaTech (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#101 Orac the cowardly putz unable to defend his view or even address me directly after 300 posts on his heinous blog. HIs hands are shaking too much to even type the word 'microbiota':
http://www.gutmicrobiotaforhealth.com/gut-microbiota-infant-vaccine-pro…

April is Autism Awareness Month and there's plenty of biological plausibility behind vaccine-induced autism, unbeknownst to Orac.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

A mouse may startle a cat, but a tiger will not care.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

By which I mean: Why would Orac need to address you directly? You've already been proven wrong on every possible level.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ ken

Perhaps Orac’s simplistically dismissive answer can best be explained by the 30,000-euro grant he received directly from Bayer

Money which he has to spend to buy stuff for his lab, pay the electric and phone bills and provide a stipend to the occasional student.

You have no idea how little € 30,000 is, for a biological or chemical lab. And you have no idea how stiff private companies could be when entertaining the idea of having an academic doing a bit of scientific research for them.
Not enough to buy our everlasting loyalty, that's for sure.

Give me public or NGO funding any day.

The Pharma shill gambit. How cliché.

Well, I was entertaining some doubts about our current visitors, but they went out of their way to show their true colors in their last posts.

@ Keith Bell

Do you want a glass of water?

By Helianthus (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith Bell - I read your article and clicked on the links. I'm not impressed, to be honest. The first article simply wondered if oral vaccines were impacted by an infant's gut flora, and they looked at both oral and parenteral vaccines. However, at least in the abstract, they didn't give enough information to me about the results (and I can't check the full article).

Not all mothers can breastfeed. Not all infants can be fed at birth for various reasons. Most premature infants are vaccinated on a modified schedule until they have "caught up" with their birth cohorts.

Your article seems to me like it's simply a lure for people to buy your items. Again, not impressed.

#377#386 You can't connect the dots. It is obvious to me your thought processes are not objective nor unbiased.

I am sure that Orac is a skilled and highly competent breast surgeon and dedicated to providing the best possible care to his patients.

Ken, let's connect the dots. Which would bring a greater profit: Prevention of diseases, or treatment? How do we know you're not being paid to make sure diseases like measles and mumps come back and bring in new profits for the hospital supply companies?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ken:

So what? I'll happily "defend" GMOs as well - I think they're products of great technology and have the potential to be very beneficial from both an ecological and human welfare standpoints. I'm not getting paid to say that, either, but I kinda wish I were. It'd be a nice supplement to my grad student pittance. (My U takes unusually good care of us, actually, so I shouldn't complain too much.)

I'm often a fan of Mother Jones, actually, but that article you linked to is crap. Neonics are not responsible for colony collapse disorder. This has been established for a while now. And that other link you provided, to that screed on some crank conspiracy website? Puh-lease. Gimme a break.

Honestly, I was willing to give you at least some kind of benefit of the doubt, ken, but you have repeatedly demonstrated the intelligence of somebody who's been brained with a f*cking two-by-four, and been an a**hole to boot.

@Helianthus:

You have no idea how little € 30,000 is, for a biological or chemical lab.

I have no doubt that he's diligently looking up what the expense breakdown on a typical grant of that amount is. After all, that's the intellectually honest thing to do.

By justthestats (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#377#386 You can’t connect the dots. It is obvious to me your thought processes are not objective nor unbiased.

The reason I can't "connect the dots," deary, is that I actually have some functioning gray matter between my ears.

"Connecting the dots" can be fun when you're stoned or writing poetry or whatever, but it's not exactly a great way to understand cause-and-effect relationships. I'd suggest you get your thinking straight if you can, which I'm beginning to seriously doubt.

#391#393 Citations please for your endorsement of GMOs. I like to hear both sides of the story without stooping so low as to insult .

Well, ken, despite the fact that GMOs are apropos of nothing here, maybe you'd like to take a look at this review of 1,783 studies concerning the safety of GMOs for a start.

And I don't want to hear any sort of whining from you about "stooping so low" after the way you have comported yourself here.

@ken - perhaps because once you get past the "anti-Monsanto / anti-GMO" scare-tactics, you realize that there is quite a bit of actual real information on the safety profile of GMOs.....and that very little, if any of the science that shows they might "not" be safe is factual.

XKCD for the win. ;-) Thank you for that chuckle, MA.

Swallowing flies and spiders is the start of a slippery slope.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ken:
Have you found that breakdown of grant spending yet? That seems like an important part of connecting the dots.

By justthestats (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#395 I see nothing here about the human consumption of GMOs

Thank you, Mr. Kulp, for telling us your story. Your mother sounds like a wonderful person.

By the way, biggest difference between Young Master Crosby and my son, my son is actually a nice polite young man who would never ever stalk anyone (well, he is too shy, and has anxiety).

#395 I see nothing here about the human consumption of GMOs

I am shocked - SHOCKED! - at your utter lack of reading comprehension. Try looking under the heading nteraction of GE crops with humans and animals, sugar.

^ Interaction. Grumble.

#395 I see nothing here about the human consumption of GMOs

I suggest reading down as far as the second page of JP's linked review article:
Interaction of GE crops with humans and animals (GE food & feed) ...................770 ................... 43.2

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ Chris:

Speaking of Jake, his blog has gone nowhere quickly.

Similarly, Stagliano writes at an actual newspaper about April being the cruellest month or something ( see AoA).

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#101 Orac the cowardly putz unable to defend his view or even address me directly after 300 posts on his heinous blog.

Kevin is coming across as a bit needy. Someone give him a hug.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#395 and BTW this was not a debate about deplorable conditions in institutions which I was more than aware of having heard of the horrors of Greystone in my state of NJ. I didn't know what Chris was talking about. I assumed she would never ever consider placing her child of normal intelligence in an institution for not being able to speak by the age of 3. She was not clear on what she meant. Yes parents
were advised to do this. My aunt in 1960 had a brain damaged child(lack of oxygen at birth) who she loved dearly and would never ever consider this.

My point was that it says very little about the person.

If that was your point, I agree with you.

But what you said was:

It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys

And by characterizing autism as "sad" and incompatible with enjoying meaningful activities, that makes the opposite point.

This blog villifies Jake Crosby who happens to have Asperger’s.

This blog doesn't treat Jake Crosby any differently than it does anyone else who expresses the same or similar views.

@ken:

Well, look who's the Mayor of Excusesville. When you ask somebody, sweetheart, point blank if "[they] would institutionalize their child," you are insinuating that yes, they would. If you can't see or cop to that, you are either dishonest or exceptionally intellectually and linguistically challenged. I suspect both.

You are also an a**hole when you say things like that, because you are making assumptions about and passing judgment on someone about whose situation you know nothing, and you are deliberately trying to cause guilt, self-doubt, and emotional pain. If you can't understand what's wrong with that, then you are severely morally challenged, and I suggest you go crawl back into whatever swampy, stagnant pool you emerged from and stay there.

^ There should be square brackets around "their," as well.

This blog villifies Jake Crosby who happens to have Asperger’s.

We seem to agree that Crosby's neurotypicality or atypicality is not relevant to his intellectual dishonesty.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

#408 You cannot grasp rhetorical questions?

#408 You cannot grasp rhetorical questions?

Yes, scuzzbucket, I can. That's the whole f*cking point.

#408 "disappointed" was the operative word in the statement he made.
This is what Chris said "My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.”
Please explain what he meant.

Are you aware of what reported speech is, ken?

JP: "You are also an a**hole when you say things like that, because you are making assumptions about and passing judgment on someone about whose situation you know nothing, and you are deliberately trying to cause guilt, self-doubt, and emotional pain."

That is how these guys work, JP. It is part of the anti-vax autism hate playbook. Since I have been dealing with these folks for around fifteen years, I have cast iron backbone and generally ignore the crass heartless idiocy.

It was quite common on a listserv I was on for my son's disability to have folks lay on all sorts of guilt trips if someone did not do the latest quackery. A little over ten years ago it was chelation, and I researched it, posted an email titled "Bad Idea" and got lots of nasty-grams posted to my email directly (avoiding the listserv moderator).

One of the "parents" turned out to be an employee of Jeffrey Bradstreet. She was trolling the listserv to get more victims to his quackery. After I found out, I quit that listserv.

Then a week later a little boy was killed by chelation. He was executed just because he had autism.

It is people like that little boy's executioners that ken celebrates as heroes.

@Chris:

I'm sorry that you've had to put up with that kind of crap; it bothers me that you do, and I'm glad you don't let it get to you.

I do feel it worthwhile, at least the moment, to explain all of ken's failings to in exquisite detail and simple, easy-to-comprehend language. For the sake of her own edification.

@JP:
She still hasn't figured out how little a €30,000 grant will get you. It's almost like she's afraid of the answer.

By justthestats (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

$32, 685 (in USD) is barely going to pay the salary of the department's administrative assistant for one year.

#416 disappointed” was the operative word in the statement he made.
“My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.”
Please explain what he meant.

#406 Best advice yet.

Did you notice that "just" was in scare quotes, ken?

#415 I was using direct speech.

Mg G-d, but you're a moron. I am neither Chris nor her son, but please allow me spell out for you, O Stupid One, what I am quite sure her statement meant:

Asperger's is perceived as a less socially, and otherwise, stigmatizing diagnostic label than autism is. So her son was disappointed that he did not "just" have Asperger's.

#424 Writers are encouraged to be cautious when using scare quotes, because they can be an evasive way of expression that will distance the writer, and leave the reader wondering if the author means what he or she is saying
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

Ha. Haha. HahahahahaHAHAHAHA!

Look everybody, ken discovered W---pedia!

#403 Thank you

Neonics are insecticides, so it makes sense that they could be deadly to bees at certain levels of exposure; I highly doubt that they are the sole cause of colony collapse disorder, which is indeed a worrying problem, although one that I feel has been the source of a needless amount of Chicken-Little-ism lately. There's some evidence that it's a cyclical phenomenon to an extent; I might try to find that article. It's definitely a good idea to look into the possible effects of neonics, which is being done.

The EPA ban seems to me to have more to do with politics than it does with science, much like the EU ban on GMOs. I'm not totally certain about that, though.

In any case, I was sitting here scratching my head and trying to imagine what you could possibly think this or your link has to do with anything, and it came to me: Oh, right. Bayer. You somehow think that because Orac received a 30,000 euro grant for breast cancer research, he's somehow also involved in neonicontinois, GMOs, the Illuminati and the New World Order or whatever, because Bayer. Uh-hunh.

I don't know if I am surprised or not that ken has not yet thought about the origin of the name of Bayer and "done some research" to help "connect the dots" in a Godwin-type way.

JP, I'd be careful mentioning the Illuminati around here.
The comment section is infiltrated, you know.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Jake's bizarre ideas about people being bought by Big Pharma always make me laugh. I have actually been wined and dined at Bayer's expense, albeit the diagnostics division, some years ago. They were trying to persuade me and my colleagues to lease a big expensive machine, but it didn't work. In the discussions we had about choosing which machine to choose the quality of the food provided by the various companies' reps did not figure at all, it was all about the price of the lease and the reagent kits, whether we could use home-brewed reagents and what assays the machine was capable of doing. The idea that I would support Bayer's products because of this is ludicrous.

I remember, with a pleasant glow, the free bar at a bash thrown by another diagnostics company in Glasgow, again some years ago. They were a Finnish company so we were offered a literal smörgåsbord too (pickled herring goes great with beer). That bought them nothing at all, since we were already using their system and had no plans to change, but it was a hell of a night, and I found myself dancing wildly with a biochemistry professor at one point. The free fizzy vitamin C tablets at the Roche stand at the biomedical sciences conference the next day did nothing for my hangover, as I recall, nor did they buy any loyalty from me.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Based on some of the stories my father used to tell about his student days -- never drink with Finns.

OK, so now that the kenkillfile is reenabled with Keith Bell commented out, I should return to my previous task. It's not going to reach "part 2," but that can wait, given that his most recent entry was simply a return to form:

Orac the cowardly putz unable to defend his view or even address me directly after 300 posts on his heinous blog.[*]

Anyway, I screwed up in #361, to wit:

Bellend tosses out out “secretor status” for no discernible reason in #230

There was indeed a stimulus, which I suppose is close enough to "a reason" in this case. But it started with #217 and culminated with the hopelessly diversionary response to GF's comments 227&ndash228, in short, why did New World aboriginal populations succumb so readily to Old World disease importations?

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status.

It is an impressive feat to generalize to a continent from an N = 79 result among (a convenience sample of Utah) members of the Ute tribe.

At this rate, I'm never going to get to vaccines causing "excitotoxicity" causing "strokes" etc.

* I seem to recall that Keith had a loose grasp of the difference between F—ook, SBM, and here, but maybe that was someone else who was bitching for personal attention.

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status.
It is an impressive feat to generalize to a continent from an N = 79 result among (a convenience sample of Utah) members of the Ute tribe.
It's a long time since I had any physical-anthropology classes, but IIRC the secretor status varies widely between Native American groups.
D’Adamo is simply equating O-group with Secretor because accuracy about the finicky details of the Lewis antigen system are not relevant to his purpose of selling books & merchandise. Keith Bell is passing on that simple-minded equation, because (1) Keith Bell, and (2) the details are equally irrelevant to *his* purpose of sheltering some ad-hoc hypothesis from a hostile world of facts.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

It’s a long time since I had any physical-anthropology classes, but IIRC the secretor status varies widely between Native American groups.

I don't imagine much of "substance" is going to be coming from KEITHBELL any time soon, but I'm sure the $6-and-change Microbiotanic Man* would have a quite a comprehensive tale to tell about the treponematoses were he only afforded the respect he deserves.

* Not a deliberate Venus and Mars reference, but whatever.

never drink with Finns.
Never get involved in a land war in Asia, and never try to out-drink Finns. They are professionals.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ JP

Neonics are insecticides, so it makes sense that they could be deadly to bees at certain levels of exposure;

Neonics are already more or less banned in my part of Europa. We still have a few bee colony collapsing.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ Narad

It is an impressive feat to generalize to a continent from an N = 79 result among (a convenience sample of Utah) members of the Ute tribe.

WTF?

*beat*

Sorry, I was busy having hysterics. And these wannabe "doctors" want to be taken seriously?
My old teacher in population biology would have had a fit.
Anyone with a passing knowledge in population dynamics - taught in the 2nd year in French universities - would expect populations organized in a constellation of tribes to follow the archipelago model: due to limited exchanges between distant "islands", each island will tend to have a homogeneous population, and there will be big differences between islands, the more distant the higher the differences.

tl;dr: a sample size this low is bad enough with a well-mixed population, it's beyond incompetence to use it on one restricted group of people among many populations segregated in tribes.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 03 Apr 2015 #permalink

Neonics are already more or less banned in my part of Europa. We still have a few bee colony collapsing.

The other funny thing is that they are (I think still) used quite widely in Australia, and Australia's never had a CCD problem. I won't say they couldn't be part of the problem, but it seems more likely to me that it has to do with parasites/viruses. Most likely it's complicated and involves a lot of things, in any case.

Meantime, U.S. bee populations seem to be recovering despite continued use of neonics, and researchers in a recently published study presented evidence suggesting neonics did not drive CCD.

"The scientists—all independent and working in a cooperative agreement with the USDA-ARS Bee Research Laboratory—found that many past researchers often based their experiments on extremely high amounts of pesticides—far more than a bee would normally encounter in its life. They looked instead at field realistic doses of pesticides, although always testing at the high end of what bees might actually experience."

"They deliberately fed honeybee colonies the neonic pesticide imidacloprid in a dose-response experiment based on real-world pesticide levels: 5 and 20 µg/kg doses are in the reported high range of residues present in pollen and nectar in seed-treated crops. They also included a 100 µg/kg dose as a worst-case exposure level, representing imacloprid applied to flowering crops. (That level caused a large kill of bumblebees in a 2013 Oregon incident.) Bee exposure occurred over nearly three weeks, longer than bees are usually exposed to neonics, so they they could not be accused of under-dosing them."

"What did they find? Even at the highest dose of pesticide exposure, the researchers found no difference in the performance of the treated and untreated hives. They found no evidence that imidacloprid affected foraging activity during and after exposure in their experiments."

"Directly contradicting claims by advocacy groups whose complaints prompted the forming of the White House task force, the longer the time period the less pesticides were found. “Bee Death Study Clears Bayer’s Insecticide as Sole Cause [of CCD],” concluded Bloomberg in its summary analysis. “A widely used insecticide developed by Bayer AG and tied to deaths of honeybees isn’t the main cause of the fatalities, University of Maryland researchers said in a study that may weaken arguments used by environmentalists seeking to ban the chemical.”

http://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/03/usda-study-concludes-neonics-…

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Mr. Bacon, the link is broken, although it seems to be on the website's end.

Bees have gut flora, too, where microbial diversity is shifted due to toxic chemicals. There are lethal and sublethal effects. Chemicals like fipronil and imidacloprid cause a kind of "bee autism" including seizure activity:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2889/abstract
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1…
There are many papers about bee gut flora. Reduced or absent lactic acid bacteria in bees make them (and humans) more susceptible to gut injury leading to brain injury.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-first-gut-then-brain

It's not a simple matter of vaccines directly causing brain damage, but about susceptibility to intestinal injury based on flora balance which is different across individuals and races.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Bees have gut flora, too, where microbial diversity is shifted due to toxic chemicals. There are lethal and sublethal effects. Chemicals like fipronil and imidacloprid cause a kind of “bee autism” including seizure activity

It's great how Keith throws out two unrelated papers – one of which he assuredly hasn't read – as though they connect together to demonstrate his thesis and then just tacks on imidacloprid out of the blue for the hell of it.

Narad didn't know bees have gut flora because he lives in a sterile world disconnected from the web of life. I sincerely doubt a single person here has ever considered the gut flora of bees. Certainly not Orac.

And there are still no studies about how any of the childhood vaccines affect flora balance or how microbial predisposition affects vaccine safety. Helianthus was still under the false impression the fetal gastrointestinal tract is sterile. What a joke.

If vaccine scientists are LUCKY, new probiotic adjuvants in development to improve vaccine response will also reduce risk of injury.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

I sincerely doubt a single person here has ever considered the gut flora of bees.

Consider the gut flora of the bees, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin...

#441 DB Thanks for the article- "Mother"Jones is not always right.

#447 KB Thanks for the article.

never try to out-drink Finns.

Amen. Sounds like the voice of experience.

By palindrom (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

And yet another article-which concludes-"It is ... concerning that the same data set can be interpreted in such wildly contrasting ways by different scientists, for this is likely to undermine confidence amongst the general public in the scientific process.”
UK drew wrong conclusion from its neonicotinoids study, scientist says
www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/26/uk-drew-wrong-conclusion-fr…

Fipronil, imidacloprid reduce honeybee mitochondrial activity

It's like clockwork. When it's pointed out that he has added two things to his original citation (that it had anything to do with imidacloprid and that the two insecticides are "like" each other), KEITHBELL frantically G—les for a word association, and to top it all off, stops with a press release for an in vitro paper that is wholly unrelated to the first one, simply lifting the word "immunoexcitotoxicity" from Russell Freaking Blaylock and tacking on some word salad to try to hold the mess together.

All the while ignoring the withering criticisms of Chengsheng Lu's work, because all he knows how to do is take two conclusions ("something bad!" + "gut flora!") and pretend to connect them regardless of whether Something Bad! is real or not.

American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status.
It is an impressive feat to generalize to a continent from an N = 79 result among (a convenience sample of Utah) members of the Ute tribe.

Let us not forget that the whole "secretor" subject-change to a new area of ignorance originally metastatised from Kevin Bell's claims about common illnesses -- that vaccination is unnecessary because only unfit and unworthy people die from measles.
He addressed contrary evidence by ignoring it and shuffling to a new position, that only people with the "secretor" phenotype are endangered by measles.
IOW, about 75% of Europeans.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

bimler, that's not at all what I've said. Moreover, that's not even my name. What I've talked about is vaccine safety, not elimination. And I brought up secretor status only related to the discussion about vulnerability of Native Americans/Hawaiians to disease. In fact, it's the non-secretors known to have reduced levels of bifidobacteria making them potentially vulnerable to vaccine injury (which is not the same thing as death by contagious disease, as you've confused the issues). African Americans apparently have the highest rate of non-secretors according to the 1950 chart. This may be consistent with CDC fraud as admitted by William Thompson.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith: Then why aren't African-Americans dying left and right to measles? It's a contradiction that blows your absurd hypothesis out of the water.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Gray, read the paragraph I just wrote again and get back to me. The issue is African American males being more prone to autism by MMR per CDC. There are several reasons males are more vulnerable outlined in my latest article, but why African American males? My theory is reduced or absent protective bacteria such as Bifidobacteria, a matter of poor microbial predisposition. Moreover, they may also naturally have higher levels of Bacteroides known to increase antibody response compared to Lactobacillus.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

@ K Bell

I sincerely doubt a single person here has ever considered the gut flora of bees.

Funny you should mention it. Wanna bet?

By Helianthus (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Funny you should mention it. Wanna bet?

"Veteran of the recycling industry" KEITHBELL has perhaps forgotten that he's recycling this as well.

Keith, you brought that up in response to the question as to why American Indians were dying of measles. If that logic applies to one race, it applies to all of them.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

African Americans apparently have the highest rate of non-secretors according to the 1950 chart.

I take it that direct replies are a bit much for you to figure out.

JP @450 -- In physics lectures about Atwood machines, idealized systems of pulleys and ropes that are used to demonstrate how to use coupled equations to solve problems, I often say:

Consider the pulleys. They do not toil, but they do spin.

The students look even more confused.

By palindrom (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

Note to Orac: I hope you're paying Narad well, he's worth every cent.

And, interestingly, American Indians were found to be the only group of 100% secretors, directly opposite of African Americans.

Most people would think genetic predisposition explains "Why 7 Deadly Diseases Strike Blacks Most"
http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/features/why-7-de…
(some studies show Whites suffer far more Parkinson's than Blacks; lower levels of neuromelanin?)

But what about microbial predisposition?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

And yet, vaccination is still vastly more effective.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

I wish I could pay Narad to post comments on the many blogs where I have to contend with the relentless drivel from the AoA denizens.

Keith Bell, you never replied to my comment about Lennox-Gastaut seizures. Your copy pasta from the Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome website is a spectacular display of your ignorance:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/26/poor-poor-pitiful-andy-wak…

Heli, perhaps because I brought it up last October, #372 here

Once again, a demonstration that nobody understands anything about the meanings of words or their combinations until KEITHBELL G—le-mines them for co-occurence.

Which does not "collapse the wavefunction" under any circumstances.

^ Ah, screw it, it'd take forever to do this systematically.

KEITHBELL: Why, precisely, do you think that microbial consumption of the intestinal mucosal barrier is a Good Thing?

Take care not to try to get away with the attachment/real-estate charade again.

Keith Bell@446

I sincerely doubt a single person here has ever considered the gut flora of bees.
Certainly not Orac.

Certainly not me. And I think rightly so. The problems with translating animal models to humans are well known. Even more so across classes. Still more so considering intestinal flora aren't homogenous amongst our own species. And even still more so for complicated interactions between systems. Especially when we don't are only beginning to understand of one of those systems.

All that is irrelevant though, because it makes no sense to be searching for a why when a there's so much quality data showing a lack of even correlation.

@467

Note to Orac: I hope you’re paying Narad well, he’s worth every cent.

Everyone knows Orac doesn't personally pay anyone. They're both paid by Big Pharma.

Narad@465

I take it that direct replies are a bit much for you to figure out.

It's like playing whack-a-mole. Except even when you get one it doesn't give you the points. And the moles aren't quite as intelligent.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

@palindrom:

I would like to sit in on your classes. :)

@ K Bell

Heli, perhaps because I brought it up last October

Actually, no. Pretty sure the honeybee scientist I was discussing with doesn't even know you exist.

By Helianthus (not verified) on 04 Apr 2015 #permalink

It is impossible to appropriately respond to Keith's posts without knowing the precise constituents of his intestinal flora (and percentages thereof).

Maybe his comments are influenced by a raging case of Candida overgrowth.

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

lilady, I certainly did answer your question and suggested focus on the gut in LGS. What do you think LGS really is? It's just an umbrella term for describing seizures largely of unknown cause.
https://www.facebook.com/lgsfoundation1/photos/a.819161508167946.107374…

I suggested LGSF add vaccine injury to their broad list of causes (30% unknown). Both LGSF and CURE have yet to receive a funding request to study gut origin of seizure while mechanism of the highly effective ketogenic diet is still up for debate.

Perhaps they'll be some answers from a new project, the Rare Epilepsy Network (REN), including vaccine injury and gut connections.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

#472, Narad, it's not just about consumption as microbes play a huge role in the creation and maintenance of our first line of defense, stimulating mucin release from goblet cells. We feed them and they feed us including required vitamins and amino acids, a reciprocal relationship.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/73/6/1131S.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1471992/
http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v8/n11/full/ismej201464a.html

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

How's your dog Keith? Still having seizures?

#472, Narad, it’s not just about consumption as microbes play a huge role in the creation and maintenance of our first line of defense, stimulating mucin release from goblet cells it is my gigantic pile of errors that counts, not any specific one.

FTFY, Keith.

Keith Bell@477

lilady, I certainly did answer your question and suggested focus on the gut in LGS.

Lilady is absolutely correct given that the study you linked to in #294 makes no mention of an effect on the microbiome as a mechanism for the ketogenic diet.

[Ketogenic diet's] utility in a variety of different epilepsies suggests that it might have multiple mechanisms of action.

"Multiple mechanisms of action" is not free license to insert your preferred nonsense as one.

What do you think LGS really is? It’s just an umbrella term for describing seizures largely of unknown cause.

Nope. That's epilepsy you're thinking of.

From the LGS Foundation website:

Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome (LGS) is a rare and often debilitating form of childhood-onset epilepsy. The syndrome is characterized by a triad of signs including multiple seizure types, moderate to severe cognitive impairment, and an abnormal EEG with slow spike-wave complexes. This triad of mixed seizures, abnormal EEG and intellectual impairment represents one of the most difficult forms of epilepsy to treat. LGS is also a physically dangerous epilepsy syndrome of childhood because of the frequent falls, injuries, and cognitive impairment that can severely limit quality of life.

How can you possibly torture that into the conclusion that LGS is an umbrella term for all idiopathic seizures?

I suggested LGSF add vaccine injury to their broad list of causes (30% unknown).

And why would they do that? Where is your evidence?

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

I do so love Keith calling us all Pharma Shills when all he's trying to do is get us to buy the stuff off his website to balance our guts...

Pot, meet Kettle.

capnkrunch

It’s like playing whack-a-mole.

More like whack-a-sealion.

To be fair though, Narad has not addressed the effect of the gut macrobiome.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

Militant Agnostic@483

To be fair though, Narad has not addressed the effect of the gut macrobiome.

To be fair to Narad though, Keith has not made it easy. Have you taken a look at his article? It's incredibly link dense and he never seems directly to a study so you need to get the name from of it from whatever site (ScienceDaily, etc.) he links to and put it into PubMed. And he makes a lot of claims so it's incredibily work intensive.

The way I see it Keith's arguments boil down to:
-Vaccines can cause injury to the microbiome
-Injuries to the microbiome can affect neurotransmitter levels, particularly serotonin
-These changes can have a neurotoxic effect that manifests as autism, epilepsy, etc.
-Probiotics*, particularly bifidobacterium, has an antinflammatory effect on the gut which translates to also being neuroprotective

But that premise and its relevant citations are mixed with a large amount of irrelevant (at least for the purposes of mounting a counterargument) talk of micriobiodiversity and other such. If Keith would be so kind as to provide the references for those base claims on which his platform rests without any hand waving I'd imagine Narad would have a much easier time.

*Which you can convienently buy directly from the same site the article is, GreenMedInfo. Only $42.95 for 60! What a steal!

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

Militant Agnostic is referring back to #366.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

A "salty" (as the aussies call them) might be a more appropriate treatment for Keith's gut macrobiome than the marcoprobiotic suggested by Randall Munroe.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

Injuries to the microbiome can affect neurotransmitter levels, particularly serotonin

I haven't even gotten to reading that mess. KEITHBELL seems, on the surface, to have (1) asserted that excitotoxicty causes strokes, rather than the other way around, and (2) failed to take note of the fact that the brain makes its own serotonin and glutamate. I can scarcely imagine the horror if he tries to claim that the endogenous surplus can't be handled as usual because something something Goaʾuld something.

Should this be Canis lupus? If so, would it be C. lupus lupus or C. lupus familiaris? Or might it just be a screwball, but existent reference to any C. lupus individual of color canus (grey)?

In any case, I have some C. lupus familiaris (um) material on the poopy pad downstairs, that I haven't cleaned up yet.. I'm not about to use it as a suppository, so if anyone wants some...

By Bill Price (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

Bill Price@489
It should indeed be Canis lupus. C. l. irremotus is the most natural and therefore best but due to government regulations they can only offer C. l. occidentalis. There's also a blend of C. l. occidentalis and C. l familiaris that is a more gentle preparation.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 05 Apr 2015 #permalink

Compulsive sea-lion syndrome is probably best treated with something more aquatic such as a salty.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

#485, capnkrunch, thanks so much for reading and that's a decent summation (and the most relevant feedback I've yet to receive anywhere) other than omitting the most important message: microbial predisposition. It's not a simple matter of vaccines damaging flora balance, but what's present at time of vaccination potentially dysregulating immune response. Btw, within all the article links are also links to the actual papers. Of course, there are also several direct links to papers.

Regarding LGS, may as well add ASD to causes as up to 40% of those with autism also suffer epilepsy. LGS is definitely a very broad umbrella.

Dawn, that's not my website and I'm selling nothing, though I'd like to . . . lots of bills to pay and worlds to change.

Adam, she passed Sept. 2012 from a photosensitive seizure-related accident.

Narad, I'm not in disregard of the brain manufacturing serotonin and glutamate, but factoring the gut in this process. The brain is also known to make its own insulin, i.e., type 3 diabetes (Alzheimer's). All the major neurodegenerative diseases including MS, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's are now thought to begin in the gut.

Gut-brain is new territory for everyone, most especially the vaccine industry while Orac doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. No wonder he refuses to participate in this conversation given four (4) opportunities thus far since he has an entire company here willing to display barbaric oblivion:
http://www.brainfacts.org/across-the-lifespan/diet-and-exercise/article…

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

"I can scarcely imagine the horror if he tries to claim that the endogenous surplus can’t be handled as usual . . . "

I'm more concerned about serotonin deficiency than surplus since it's correlated with SIDS and constipation.

Better to be a little behind than a big ass, Orac.

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Btw, within all the article links are also links to the actual papers.

And, as you've already demonstrated here, you're completely incompetent at reading the parts that you can see and almost too G-ddamned lazy to get copies of the ones that are paywalled.

Here, for example, is Keith's incisive "analysis" of neurotoxicity. It's no surprise that he ignored a request to summarize it here, because it's word salad – a disjointed set of assertions with nothing more than links to random papers.

Check this out:

It's stated boldly in many papers that serotonin doesn't cross blood-brain barrier (BBB) as if gut-derived serotonin doesn't enter the brain, yet papers show serotonin penetrates BBB.

The "studies" is this rarely cited 1967 entry, which is essentially impossible to evaluate without the whole thing, something I'm not doing for KEITHBELL today.

It's not even clear why he includes it, but such is the nature of a blizzard of shіt. It's a monument to his word-association modus operandi. Oh, and sure enough, Russell Freaking Blaylock.

This is a person who demonstrably can't think and is really, really impressed by the "talent."

Narad: "Russell Freaking Blaylock."

This weekend I listened to one of Dr. Crislip's podcasts. This one included jokes on how to hide a five dollar from certain medical specialists. Apparently you can hide cash from a surgeon by putting it in a text book.

Hey, I'm still learning about how the gut affects brain serotonin levels and gave a brief overview, including how serotonin crosses BBB into circulation and how tryptophan of gut microbial origin crosses BBB as precursor for serotonin production in the brain.

But in your small, compartmentalized world, Narad, it's all about the brain. I've got news for you: your BBB is a joke. You can't even acknowledge role of the gut in serotonin deficiency associated with SIDS (including vaccine-induced SIDS).

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Keith, do you understand the concept of "evidence"?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Gray, do you understand the concept of hypothesis? Who else is talking about gut origin of vaccine injury and epilepsy? You think it's not a worthwhile avenue of study?

By Keith Bell (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Not all hypotheses have equal standing.

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink

Gray, do you understand the concept of hypothesis?

It's pretty apparent that KEITHBELL doesn't, given the fact that he phrases his random connections as facts and is singularly uninterested in coming up with ways of falsifying them rather than simply churning out more.

Who else is talking about gut origin of vaccine injury and epilepsy?

Now, there's a notable lacuna in Keith's otherwise, ah, "remarkable" dot-connecting skills.

It’s not a simple matter of vaccines damaging flora balance, but what’s present at time of vaccination potentially dysregulating immune response.

Ah ha! I was so busy digging through the trees I didn't see the forest. The microbiome is actually the least important thing here since you're not claiming it as a mechanism. Here's a revised list of my points of contention:
-Vaccines cause inflammatory intestinal injury
-The resultant elevated blood serotonin levels lead to neurological damage that manifests as autism, epilepsy, etc

Btw, within all the article links are also links to the actual papers. Of course, there are also several direct links to papers.

Not the Alzheimer one which was the first I tried. After that I just grabbed the title and Pubmed'd instead of searching for the link. It's generally good practice to link either directly to the study or to the Pubmed entry when you are referencing studies.

Regarding LGS, may as well add ASD to causes as up to 40% of those with autism also suffer epilepsy.

Ah, I see what's going on. You're confusing correlation with causation. Don't worry about it. All quacks make that mistake.

LGS is definitely a very broad umbrella.

I can't figure out where you are getting that from. As I quoted from the LGS Foundation before, it is a very specific type of childhood onset epilepsy and by no means a wastebasket diagnosis for seizures of unknown etiology.

Dawn, that’s not my website and I’m selling nothing, though I’d like to . . . lots of bills to pay and worlds to change.

Sure but that's your article endorsing bifidobacterium on a website that happens to sell it. Sure seems like far more of a COI than Orac has ever had.

By capnkrunch (not verified) on 06 Apr 2015 #permalink