New to Scienceblogs: The Angry Toxicologist

Why is he angry? Could it be heavy metal poinsoning?

I think a better title for his blog would be MisinformedToxicologist.

Finally someone whos a nice normal guy on science blogs who doesnt mock people who dont want mercury in their bodies, these other militant geeks who were rejects in college and high school get redundant.

Some of these idiots are so militant about mercury, there has been no study comparing no mercury vs 1991 levels of mercury in children, comparing the effects, so the militant geeks who go "woo woo" all the time dont even know what they are talking about.

Cooler, one thing we know, is that most children, including autÃstic children, shows no symptoms of mercury poisoning. This post focuses on addressing the claims about autism as a kind of mercury poisoning, but if you look at the symptoms of mercury poisoning, you'll find that they are easily detected.

until you have a study that compares thousands of people with no mercury vs 1991 levels of thimerosol everything you say is pure speculation, you can nitpick on the details, but the " mercury woo woo" clan are the most unscientific group of morons I've ever seen.

The study I mentioned could prove or falsify the mercury hypothesis, but instead of realizing no one knows what the effect potent nuerotoxin until there is a properly designed study, and that there is a lot of good anecdotal evidence that thimersol is dangerous, you guys go "woo woo" saying that anyone that questions the CDC is a fraud, when its you people who don't have one properly designed study to back your claim. Until there is that properly designed study no one can claim mercury is safe, and it shouldnt be in vaccines.

Cooler,

They took thiomersal out of childhood vaccines years ago, and are in the process of removing it from all vaccines in the US. The only places that receive thiomersal containing vaccines are nations without reliable refrigeration.

Here is the experiment. Compare autistic spectra numbers in birth year cohorts before and after the removal of thiomersal. Is there a change in the incidence or prevalence of autistic spectra disorders? No. The hypothesis that thiomersal is a cause of the ASD fails.

Your refrain is that mercury shouldn't be in vaccines.

It isn't in them anymore.

Why do you have so much trouble understanding this?

it will take a few years, there are probably still old stock of vaccines being used, the flu shots given to pregnant women increase mercury load. get with the program, the study I mentined above is the only way to go.

Hello Cooler.

I absolutely agree with you that the most ignorant thing in the world was to put mercury in vaccines. I think it is just as ignorant for the dental industry to put it in anyones mouth! I do believe that some people were harmed with both. The veterinarian I take my dog to cannot take any shots himself with mercury in them as he breaks out in severe rashes from it. Obviously it has potent effects in some people.

But that said, we still cannot be truly sure that the autism is from the mercury.

One thing that very few are considering is that the autism may be a reaction in some children to some of the vaccines themselves, or perhaps a reaction in some children to combinations of vaccines.

No studies of vaccine interactions have ever been produced either.

No studies to see what individual vaccine who has taken that may lead to autism is a small percentage has ever been looked at or even yet suspected.

But it may very well be the case that it is one or some of the vaccines themselves, and not even the mercury, that caused the leap in current autism rates!

Nobody really knows!

We know that autism is genetic in nature. We even know which chromosome it's linked to. There is no plausible way that vaccinations could cause autism.

Cooler, The "old stock" expired years ago. For childhood vaccines, none with thiomersal have been made since 2001, with the last batches expiring the first day of 2003. Its gone. It isn't used any more.

There isn't mercury in childhood vaccines any more.

I want you to reread that sentence a few times. Have a sandwich. Watch some TV. Come back and read it again.

There isn't mercury in childhood vaccines any more.

Denmark removed thiomersal from all vaccines in 1992. Since then, ASD have increased, not decreased (BTW, because of this evidence, Denmark is the most hated nation on the planet in the eyes of the mercury militia (their name for themselves, not mine)). Your hypothesis has to be discarded. It doesn't fit the evidence, and even so, it doesn't matter!

There isn't mercury in childhood vaccines any more.

We tried to explain this to you over at Orac's, but you pulled a Cartman. The flu vaccine is available without thiomersal, and the thiomersal containing formulation is being phased out. We have something called a dose/response curve. You change the dose, you should see a change in the response. That didn't happen.

Researchers are looking at other possible causes of ASD, and the best evidence points to ASD as being caused by variations within certain genes, and the effects of these variations demonstrate what is called partial penetrance (the severity or presence of a condition caused by a certain gene is variable). Some of these genes are called homeobox genes, and are responsible for proper body development. These genes determine head vs tail, body section development, placement of limbs, etc. ASD likely start before birth, but the symptoms don't fully present until a few years after birth. This also explains why parents with one autistic child are more likely to have another child with an ASD, as well as why certain groups with limited gene pool have a little to no incidence of ASD.

--------------

Michael, rarely, some people have a mild allergic reaction to thiomersal. Your vet friend need not worry. He can get those vaccines thiomersal free. Also, the tiny amount of mercury in amalgam fillings is unlikely to have an effect (the dose is just too low), but the amalgam filling has gone the way of the dinosaurs. The replacements are more durable, look better and the production process doesn't release mercury into the environment. If you want the old ones out, you can have them replaced.

Robster,
just because you were a militant nerd that was a reject in college, dont take it out on me. The danish study was a sleight of hand, they fooled with the data and rigged it, they increased the sample size to fudge the stats. See DR. ayoub's lecture and learn. I agree with Micheal we dont know the answer yet, the best studies are yet to come.

Just conduct a study looking at 3000 people with no thimerosol intake vs 1991 levels, is that so hard?

"increased the sample size to fudge the stats."

First time that ever worked out!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646

Mercury autism lecture by DR. Ayoub, he is nobel prize material.

Well, except that he hasn't published anything in the field, and that he is a conspiracy theorist (black helicopters and everything). The day that Ayoub gets the nobel prize for anything, will be the day that the nobel prize is worthless. Thankfully, that's not something that's going to happen - not because of some sort of conspiracy, but because he hasn't added anything to science.

I think you are jealous of him. Thats cute.

They took thiomersal out of childhood vaccines years ago, and are in the process of removing it from all vaccines in the US. The only places that receive thiomersal containing vaccines are nations without reliable refrigeration.

Your refrain is that mercury shouldn't be in vaccines.
It isn't in them anymore.
Why do you have so much trouble understanding this?

Robster, Why don't you ask your president that question? While you're at it, ask him if he knows the fridge has been invented?

"Bush Set to Veto HHS-Labor-Education Appropriations Bill Due to Provision to Remove Mercury From Infant Vaccines

SafeMinds and autism community call the White House
declaration 'irresponsible and dangerous'

WASHINGTON, July 18/PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- According to the Congressional Quarterly, the White House stated on Tuesday that President Bush would veto the HHS-Labor-Education Appropriations Bill because of the
cost and "objectionable provisions" such as a measure to ban the use of childhood flu vaccines that contain thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative.

Autism advocacy groups are outraged because President Bush stated in a questionnaire during his 2004 campaign: "I support the removal of Thimerosal from vaccines on the childhood national vaccine schedule. During a second term as President, I will continue to support increased funding to support a wide variety of research initiatives aimed at seeking definitive causes and/or triggers of autism. It is important to note that while there are many possible theories about causes or triggers of autism, no one
material has been definitely included or excluded."

But since 2005, President Bush has steadfastly refused to issue an Executive Order banning high amounts of mercury in vaccines that would protect children and pregnant women despite repeated requests from the autism community that he uphold his campaign promise. Under his current administration, mercury has been and will continue to be knowingly injected into the youngest of American citizens. The controversial mercury-containing preservative thimerosal has been linked by thousands of parents as being the cause of their children's mercury poisoning and
autism.

The flu vaccine which continues to be manufactured with mercury is recommended for all pregnant women, infants and children despite the fact that the Institute of Medicine in 2001 recommended against the policy of exposing these same sensitive groups to thimerosal containing vaccines. According to the EPA, one in every six women of childbearing age already has blood levels of mercury high enough to cause neurological damage to their unborn children due to environmental exposures alone. "Injecting even more mercury into the bodies of pregnant women, infants and children when it is not a necessary component of vaccines is just bad medicine," said Lyn Redwood, president of SafeMinds and parent of a mercury-injured child. "It defies logic that a flu vaccine must be disposed of as a hazardous waste if it is not used, but somehow injecting the same mercury-containing vaccine into a baby is safe."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/…

Cooler.

Compare birth cohorts. Born in 1991 vs born in '03 (when thiomersal was out of all childhood vaccines). Autism didn't decrease. Your experiment has been done, and your hypothesis failed. What is it about this that evades you? And why do you keep going back to videotaped lectures? Pubmed is just a click away.

-------------

Lisa, Maybe you could have mentioned that this "newswire" article is a press release from a mercury militia group. The production of many vaccines still involves thiomersal, which is then removed. Only a trace amount (no greater than 1 microgram or less per dose) is allowed to remain. Less than one microgram, as in less than one millionth of a gram. Considering that most ethylmercury is excreted rapidly in the feces, this simply isn't a source worth worrying about.

From the press release, The flu vaccine which continues to be manufactured with mercury is recommended for all pregnant women, infants and children despite the fact
that the Institute of Medicine in 2001 recommended against the policy of exposing these same sensitive groups to thimerosal containing vaccines.

Preservative free forms of these vaccines are available and should be used for the sensitive groups as determined by the IOM (low birthweight infants, if I recall correctly). Vaccine producers make childhood vaccines with thiomersal at the old levels for nations without reliable refrigeration. I know this may seem unlikely to some, but there are many places around the world where this is very important.

According to the EPA, one in every six women of childbearing age already has blood levels of mercury high enough to cause neurological damage to their unborn children due to environmental exposures alone.

Then let's concentrate on environmental sources! The amount in vaccines isn't enough to be a concern, but food and water sources are definitely an issue. The claim that autism is caused by thiomersal is without scientific support, while there is good evidence that the cause is genetic in nature. These groups aren't just barking up the wrong tree, they are in the wrong forest!

Im not an expert on mercury/autism, as I am on hiv etc i need more time to research it. My understanding is that the 1999 vaccines dont expire till 2003 and might still be used, there still in flu shots and multi dose vials still have mercury.

Where is this study comparing 1991 to 2003...........no one knows what the 2003 level of children's mercury intake because of all the ambiguities mentioned above, a real study would compare to people that were never vaccinated......

Cooler, You aren't an "expert" on either, or even the basic scientific method. You need more than a few internet videos or fictionalized accounts of mycoplasma research to be acknowledged as an expert. I'm not saying this out of spite, its just the basic truth. Read both sides, learn the science, learn how statistics work, and approach it without conspiracy seeking behavior. That is a good first step.

If you want to compare thiomersal exposure to non exposure, you don't compare vacc vs nonvacc. And you are just moving the goalposts by suggesting that expired vaccine is still used four years later. Vaccines for use in children under six don't contain thiomersal, over six, there is some, and preservative free/reduced flu vaccines are available.

Since most ethylmercury is excreted via the fecal route shortly after exposure, the real concern is environmental exposure to methylmercury, which is documented to cause nervous system toxicity. Limiting industrial mercury is where we should be focused.

I'll see if I can't dig up the autism prevalence studies later today. Will you accept them, or baselessly dismiss them as you did with the Denmark study? Increasing study size should improve a study, not invalidate it.

Hello Robster. Wow, dude! Just when I thought you were hopelessly ignorant, you surprise me with something of very profound intelligence. I wish to commend you for it. You said:

"I'm not saying this out of spite, its just the basic truth. Read both sides, learn the science, learn how statistics work, and approach it without conspiracy seeking behavior. That is a good first step".

Right On Robster. And I know how difficult it can be to take this first step. It often requires courage, humility, and the self acceptance and tolerance of knowing that all of us, including our own selves, can make mistakes and can get caught up in believing something that is founded in falsehood or fear or panic or pre-programmed belief.

Your advice is exactly what I had to do when my lover came down as HIV positive. At the time, I was 95% finished on a film I had just produced called "living with Mimi". It was a love story about an HIV positive woman who fell in love with an HIV negative man, and about their trauma in dealing with it. In the end of the film, she dies of AIDS. At the time, I felt this film was a very important message to get out. But on 9-11, yes the Nine Eleven of 2001, as if the day was not traumatic enough, my own lover told me he was HIV positive. Suddenly I was living the very film story that I was producing. Could my life have gotten any weirder? For a while, we both freaked out and believed what everyone else believed. It took some time, but I decided to fully investigate both sides, ask questions, and approach both sides with a healthy sense of scepticism. I asked many questions that the orthodoxy could not answer or gave confusing or misleading answers to. I sought the dissident opinions as well. As I did so, I gradually found myself leaning more and more on the dissident side. I found it just made more sense and fully explained not just my own lover, but the many hundreds of friends that I had personally known that were affected by HIV or AIDS in the gay community. As I got educated about it all, and began to think for myself, I also decided to do what I could to share my own perspective, and my own truth with the rest of the public. At times, the public, both gay or straight, seem to be unwilling to hear or understand my messages, but I continue to speak out, and do the best I can. A few people listen and understand, most do not. Such is how our human minds work. We can all be very resistant to learning, growing, or changing pre-conceived opinions or beliefs. This is a common human foible that all of us are susceptible to at times.

But Robster, this is just my own experience. This is where my life led me. You, my friend, must follow your own heart and decide what your own truth is for yourself.

I only hope you will truly give the HIV issue the same treatment that you are encouraging Cooler to do with the mercury/autism thing. Perhaps such a message to cooler, you may have also been trying to tell your own self something profound. Often we humans teach the very thing that we ourselves most need to learn.

"I'll see if I can't dig up the autism prevalence studies later today"

So youre advocating a study that you dont even know exists? And you talk about scientific method?, I doubt such a study exists BC autism is diagnosed at 3-4-5-6-7 years old so if they took mercury out in 2003 you should just begin to see a reduction, meaning the study should be within the last year or less.

Dr. Ayoub says that in the Denmark study the increased the Population size AFTER mercury was removed, then taking the ABSOLUTE # OF AUTISM cases vs the absolute number of autism cases from a population that was much smaller before mercury removal, are you going to answer his claim, or make fun of him?

This will give the illusion of an increased rate of autism, when it probably decreased, ie if in for example in a sample of 10, 5 have autism, then you take another sample of 500 after mercury removal and 10 have autism, THE RATE ACTUALLY DECREASED, although you can claim it increased by only reporting the absolute #, this is what Dr. Ayoub claims.

I am certainly more of an expert than you are, as far as the mycoplasma thing, I trust Dr. shyh Ching Lo's studies much more than your advice, you should read up on him and learn from a vastly superior scientist than you, instead of lecturing others.

Remember he is on of the only scientists since Koch to discover a microbe, mycoplasma incognitus that induced disease in animals, unlike your pet microbes that are barely detectable and have 40 year window periods like HPV, but hey Merck supported so you must to!

summary of Lo's work on mycoplasma
http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html
see hiv fact or fraudthe video where many scientists doubt hiv

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064591712431946916

read http://www.projectdaylily.com/
to find about the mycoplasma biowarfare program

"I'll see if I can't dig up the autism prevalence studies later today"

So youre advocating a study that you dont even know exists? And you talk about scientific method?, I doubt such a study exists BC autism is diagnosed at 3-4-5-6-7 years old so if they took mercury out in 2003 you should just begin to see a reduction, meaning the study should be within the last year or less.

Dr. Ayoub says that in the Denmark study the increased the Population size AFTER mercury was removed, then taking the ABSOLUTE # OF AUTISM cases vs the absolute number of autism cases from a population that was much smaller before mercury removal, are you going to answer his claim, or make fun of him?

This will give the illusion of an increased rate of autism, when it probably decreased, ie if in for example in a sample of 10, 5 have autism, then you take another sample of 500 after mercury removal and 10 have autism, THE RATE ACTUALLY DECREASED, although you can claim it increased by only reporting the absolute #, this is what Dr. Ayoub claims.

I am certainly more of an expert than you are, as far as the mycoplasma thing, I trust Dr. shyh Ching Lo's studies much more than your advice, you should read up on him and learn from a vastly superior scientist than you, instead of lecturing others.

Remember he is on of the only scientists since Koch to discover a microbe, mycoplasma incognitus that induced disease in animals, unlike your pet microbes that are barely detectable and have 40 year window periods like HPV, but hey Merck supported so you must to!

see hiv fact or fraudthe video where many scientists doubt hiv

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064591712431946916

read http://www.projectdaylily.com/
to find about the mycoplasma biowarfare program

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html

Summary of Lo's work from the armed forces of pathology on Mycoplasma incognitus

i submitted a duplicate post that is being held, sorry

Dr. Ayoub says that in the Denmark study the increased the Population size AFTER mercury was removed, then taking the ABSOLUTE # OF AUTISM cases vs the absolute number of autism cases from a population that was much smaller before mercury removal, are you going to answer his claim, or make fun of him?

If Ayoub said that, he was wrong. The population size (the population of Denmark) was the same. However, it is true that more autists were counted after thimerosal was removed, due to the fact that Denmark changed it's practices when counting autists (counting both in- and out-patients). However, given the fact that the study was addressing an absolute claim - the hypothesis that autism was caused by thimerosal - there should have been a decline in the number of austistic children no matter how they were counted.

I've talked with the main author of the study, and he told me that they did look at how the growth of just in-patients as well, and it showed the same tendecies. Unfortunately they couldn't include both set of data in the publication (due to lack of space), so they excluded this rather than the counts by the new methods. Something which both the author and I think was the wrong decision in retroperspective.

There were flaws in the Danish study, but none of them as serious as people like Ayoub wants to make it sound like. And some of the claims about wants wrong with the study is completely wrong, as I've demonstrated before.

Michael, choosing "your own" truth doesn't make it the truth or reality.

----------------

Cooler,

I am certainly more of an expert than you are, as far as the mycoplasma thing, I trust Dr. shyh Ching Lo's studies much more than your advice, you should read up on him and learn from a vastly superior scientist than you, instead of lecturing others.

Where did you get your doctorate, and what is it in? From the Internet University of Googlevideo's Conspiracy Theory Studies department?

What does Lo consider to be the cause of AIDS? I have seen many denialists try to put words in his mouth, but his papers don't suggest this, especially the recent ones, where he refers to HIV+ AIDS patients. He advocated mycoplasma as a possible cofactor affecting the rate of progression of AIDS and/or cause of certain OIs. Further research has given mixed results, mostly negative.

His animal model is interesting, especially one specific detail. From the abstract of the article on the animal model, "The necropsy examination of the 4 VLIA inoculated animals revealed no opportunistic infections, acute inflammatory lesions, malignancy or cause of death other than VLIA infection." AIDS is characterized by OIs and rare malignancies. The model does not show this, thus, it is not an animal model for AIDS.

The daylily stuff is a fiction novel, and is not representative of Lo's work. Novels are not scientific research.

Back to autism, the papers on the Denmark study describe incidence, which is expressed as a ratio, as in cases per 10,000, and ASD incidence went up. Can I make fun of this Ayoub charlatan now? If this is his argument, I don't think he even read any of the articles. If he actually had a real case to make, he would have made it in the scientific literature. Rather, he has never written a scientific article on thiomersal or autism, even in crackpot journals.

For current US data, we have to look at public health programs that track enrollment. It is a poor means of gathering data, but the mercury militia latched onto it for some reason. The data from California's CDDS has not shown any significant change in prevalence, which was predicted by the mercury militia to be diagnostic. You are correct that no US study has been completed, but with with the 3-5 year group catching up to previous age categories, the numbers (see table 34) don't support the mercury groups. If you have paid attention to these groups over the last couple of years, they have been moving the goalposts frantically.

Here is the Quebec study, showing the same thing as the Denmark study. Neither thiomersal nor the MMR vaccine were found to be linked to the rise in ASD. Canada banned thiomersal from vaccines after 1996. Canada's ASD rates by birth year have not decreased, but increased. Canada's study validated the results from Denmark's study.

It was an interesting hypothesis for a year or so, but it fell apart when put to the test.

"For current US data, we have to look at public health programs that track enrollment"

Wow, what about thats study you claimed that compared 1991 cohorts to 2003! lol

"Compare autistic spectra numbers in birth year cohorts before and after the removal of thiomersal. Is there a change in the incidence or prevalence of autistic spectra disorders? No. The hypothesis that thiomersal is a cause of the ASD fails"

You are a crackup, you lie about the existence of a study thats never been done, had I not caught you, all the lurkers here would have believed you!

Now you sneakily back off that claim saying

"For current US data, we have to look at public health programs that track enrollment"

Yeah some convoluted proposal that makes no sense, after I call you out about citing a study thats never even been conducted.

You couldnt stand the fact that the study you said existed didnt, now that you know it hasnt, instead of adovocating the study you lied about ( comparing 1991 cohorts to 2003 cohorts), you lower the standard even further, because you cant admit more research is needed, even if its a study that you claimed existed ( it didn't) to prove your claims!

I told you the only way to faslify prove the mercury autism link is to compare about 2000 people with no thimerosol proposal vs. people with the 1991 level of exposure. Why are you people so against a study that could end all this madness? What excuse are you going to use now, are you afraid that a properly designed study might reveal something? Can you admit we might not know everything about thimersol yet? Oh yeah you're a CDC/drug company sycophant, sorry.

As far as Lo's animal model, It sure is more telling than what happens when animals get injected with hiv, nothing at all, its acts just like the harmless passenger virus it probably is.

For the record, Lo in one of his patents injected Chimpanzees with mycoplasma and they all got symptoms of AIDS while the controls didnt, so when injected to a more closely related species an AIDS like illness occured, while in mice and other monkeys death occured.

Lo never claimed mycoplasma causes AIDS, he just saw many of the same flaws scientists like Deusberg saw with HIV, which is why he appalauded Duesberg for speaking out and said "AIDS is much more complicated than HIV"

His mycoplasma hypothesis had general ramifications, for Garth nicolson found the same bug in CFS etc, im sure if Merck released some Ads about mycoplasma you'd jump right on board.

What a pathetic medical establishment we have that lets people with CFS who have this microbe in thier blood, a microbe that kills /sickens every animal injected left to rot. I dont know about you but if I had a mysterious infectious type illness like CFS and had a microbe in my blood that killed every animal injected, I would like to know about it and treat it.

There are many different things that can cause immune supression,only blaming a virus like HIV that has no animal model, is only in 1 of 10,000 cells, and has an unexplainable 10 year window with no symptoms, and a correlation thats just an artifact of the definition, its not suprising many scientists like duesberg, Lo etc look for other factors like AZT, the cell killing drug, other microbes, not to mention the catastrophic stress you people instill etc. thats probaly much more harmful than a harmless passenger virus.

"Compare birth cohorts. Born in 1991 vs born in '03 (when thiomersal was out of all childhood vaccines). Autism didn't decrease. Your experiment has been done, and your hypothesis failed. What is it about this that evades you"

Can you apologize for lying that this study existed when it didnt?

Our local 9-11 conspiracy theorist cooler says
You are a crackup, you lie about the existence of a study thats never been done, had I not caught you, all the lurkers here would have believed you!

The "study" was done. I just did it myself. You can do it yourself. Please look at a CDC graph of autism incidence. Autism in 1991 or 1995, then autism in the latest year. That's the study. It hasn't gone down since thiomersal got taken out. It's gone up. Yeah we have to wait another decade to be sure but based on Europe and Canada cooler's wrong in the USA too.

Cooler says,
Lo in one of his patents injected Chimpanzees with mycoplasma and they all got symptoms of AIDS while the controls didnt, so when injected to a more closely related species an AIDS like illness occured, while in mice and other monkeys death occured.

Not sure what that means, "Lo in one of his patients injected Chimpanzees" but I don't remember Lo doing anything with chimps and M fermentans. Wonder if cooler has a reference for that?

Lo injected 4 silvered leaf monkeys with "a virus-like infectious agent (VLIA) derived from transformed NIH/3T3 cells (sb51) transfected with Kaposi's sarcoma DNA of an AIDS patient" That must be the highly purified stuff the denialists always want. Hmm wonder if there was any HIV in there? KS, AIDS patient, DNA. Hmm.

The monkeys symptoms, two got "transient lymphadenopathy" two had lymphopenia and some of them had mild fevers. They had wasting. There was "no opportunistic infections, acute inflammatory lesions, malignancy"
All from Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1989 Apr;40(4):399-409 but I think these four monkeys were published again in 1993.

Then cooler schlepps out his Dr. Nicolson. Wonder if cooler read SC Lo's paper about mycoplasma and gulf war veterans? "Lack of serological evidence for Mycoplasma fermentans infection in army Gulf War veterans: a large scale case-control study." Lo SC et al Epidemiol Infect. 2000 Dec;125(3):609-16

"Sixteen chimpanzees are divided into four groups. Group A is inoculated intravenously with 1 ml of M. penetrans as isolated in Example 1 Group B is inoculated with 1 ml of fluid containing 10.sup.6 M. penetrans-infected mammalian cells. Group C is inoculated with 1 ml of fluid containing 10.sup.6 inactivated or attenuated M. penetrans, and Group D is the control group and did not receive an inoculation of the infected mammalian cells.

"All chimpanzees in Groups A and B developed symptoms of AIDS. However, none of the chimpanzees in Groups C and D developed the symptoms of AIDS. The chimpanzees of Group C are rendered immune to subsequent challenge of intravenous inoculation with 1 ml of M. penetrans or 1 ml containing 10.sup.6 M. penetrans-infected NIH/3T3 cells."

From Lo's patent in 1993.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5215914.html

I told you, Nicolson used the PCR, antibody testing is not as reliable bc the monkeys had a weak antibody reposnse when near death, if you read project day lily youll find out why Lo was contradictory, he was being handled.

Hows the lab work doing adele LOL. This is what I get when I google Adele and dale, why do you keep lying?

http://www.usu.edu/fchd/cdlab_youngs.cfm

As far as autism send me the links if they exist

"The study looked at 27,749 students in grades kindergarten through 12th grade in a Montreal school district and found 187 cases of autism.
The vast majority of these cases (more than 90%) were born in years in which thimerosal vaccines were widely used for infants in Quebec, as they were in the US.
Only a tiny fraction of the autism students were born when thimerosal-free DTP and Hib vaccines were given, and these students may have been exposed to thimerosal from the Hepatitis B vaccine newly recommended for infants of foreign-born parents, which made up over one fourth of the greater Montreal population.
Dr. Fombonne wrongfully claims that large-population studies in the United States, England and Denmark also disprove a link between mercury and autism.
Although multiple respected researchers state otherwise, Dr. Fombonne maintains the radical conclusion "there is no autism epidemic."
He conveniently ignores the vast body of scientific evidence, which has shown that environmental factors such as mercury may have caused the increased number of autism diagnoses in the US and other countries.
Dr. Fombonne's actions have historically been in the best interest of various pharmaceutical companies, not families with autism. Fombonne has also declared himself an expert witness in thimerosal-related litigation. "

Debunking pharma shill's Fombonnes Quebec study

Cooler,

It isn't a current official study, but comes from surveillance numbers. I apologize, my memory failed me on this one. Regardless, the mercury cult decided that the CDDS data was diagnostic and it has shown them wrong.

Now, will you apologize for repeating Ayoub's lies about the Denmark study? The numbers are solid, based around cases per 10,000 individuals. Nobel prize worthy? Ayoub is a pitiful, fraud. Can you summon the courage to admit your hero and his little online video are wrong? Quid pro quo, Clarice.

You copy without crediting a Safeminds press release as though that constitutes debunking. You should try reading the article before you regurgitate Safeminds propaganda. The study found 180 cases of PDD (including autism), not 187 cases of autism. Safeminds can't even get the details right.

Safeminds and FAIR (Ayoub's group) make their money as ambulance chasing expert witnesses and lawyers, so attacking Fombonne for acting as a science supporting expert witness is quite disingenuous. Perhaps the mercury militia is jealous that he doesn't get thrown out of court for lacking credibility like they do.

Of course, attacking Fombonne lets Safeminds off the hook from actually offering evidence against his study. The pharma shill attack is logically weak. If Fombonne is wrong, they should be able to nail him on it, regardless of having received money from pharma, government, or some guy named Guido. They don't and can't, so they resort to ad homs and lies about the contents of the article.

Dr. Fombonne's actions have historically been in the best interest of various pharmaceutical companies, not families with autism.

What actions? His testimony as an expert witness coincides with protecting public health, including the use of vaccines to prevent childhood diseases, and the lack of evidence against thiomersal. By conducting research that does not support the failed claim that thiomersal causes autism he is helping families of autists avoid scam artists like Safeminds, FAIR and DAN!. No wonder they attack him. They have a cottage industry and a cult-like belief to protect.

Nowhere within the article is Safemind's 90% claim. It is just another detail that they screw up. 72.8% of PDDs were from thiomersal receiving years, which is as close as things get to "more than 90%". Autism numbers for thiomersal receiving years was even lower. Nobody ever accused Safeminds of being good at math, or even reading the articles they critique.

The fact of the study is that the level of autism increased after thiomersal was removed. Removal of thiomersal should have caused the opposite if the mercury militia's hypothesis was correct. Even if a quarter of the children did get the HepB vaccine, numbers still should have gone down, not up. You would actually do better pushing thiomersal as an autism preventative (which no one is doing).

Daylily is still a fiction novel. Lo is still not a denialist. There is still no compelling evidence that thiomersal or vaccines causes autism, rather, there is ample evidence that they do not.

Thanks for the chimpanzee link, cooler. I read all four sentences of that section in Lo's patent application. Was this ever published? And why aren't there more details? I hope we get to read about this on PubMed someday.

Michael,

For once I feel that you have told us the truth:

Your advice is exactly what I had to do when my lover came down as HIV positive. At the time, I was 95% finished on a film I had just produced called "living with Mimi". It was a love story about an HIV positive woman who fell in love with an HIV negative man, and about their trauma in dealing with it. In the end of the film, she dies of AIDS. At the time, I felt this film was a very important message to get out. But on 9-11, yes the Nine Eleven of 2001, as if the day was not traumatic enough, my own lover told me he was HIV positive. Suddenly I was living the very film story that I was producing. Could my life have gotten any weirder? For a while, we both freaked out and believed what everyone else believed. It took some time, but I decided to fully investigate both sides, ask questions, and approach both sides with a healthy sense of scepticism. I asked many questions that the orthodoxy could not answer or gave confusing or misleading answers to. I sought the dissident opinions as well. As I did so, I gradually found myself leaning more and more on the dissident side. I found it just made more sense and fully explained not just my own lover, but the many hundreds of friends that I had personally known that were affected by HIV or AIDS in the gay community.

I am very sorry to hear that you have had to deal with such a frightening and depressing situation, and I can understand how it would be natural for you to want to deny the scary reality that you and your lover have had to face.

Anger and denial are normal defense mechanisms that all people use at one time or another in their lives. But in the long run, maintaining the anger and denial becomes counter-productive, sapping your emotional energy and blocking you from a productive response to your predicament.

Although you pretend that you have made a rational assessment of the science behind HIV/AIDS, it is clear from your posts that you have no real understanding of the scientific issues. You simply cling to Denialism as a means to reinforce your defensive response to a scary situation. The vitriol in your responses whenever we point out the fundamental errors you make on simple scientific issues speaks to the emotional investment you have made in your denialist positions, even positions that can be refuted by a high school level of understanding of chemistry or biology.

Although denying your predicament may make you feel safer, in truth it won't make your lover's HIV infection go away. Although it may feel to you as if your lover's life depends on your defending every rhetorical advantage that you imagine that you have eked out for the Denialist position, this is all really wasted energy. At some point, to develop a truly helpful response to your predicament, you will need to move past the anger and denial to a more mature response to your problems. They will not disappear just because you choose an alternate reality.

I truly hope you find a good therapist to help you with these issues, because I do not think that you will be able to grapple with them successfully on your own. While your hobby of posting vehemently angry and irrational screeds on the web may have helped you express your initial anger over your tragic situation, I believe that it has become counter-productive for you, allowing you to remain stuck in denial and preventing you from finding a way to make the most of your life and relationship. I think you should talk with your therapist about taking a hiatus from surfing or posting on the web for several months, to see if you can explore the issues preventing you from overcoming your denial and developing more productive strategies for dealing with your scary situation.

We all encounter tragedy in our lives. These tragedies are never easy to deal with. I wish you the best in finding a more effective strategy to dealing with the very real tragedy you are facing.

Franklin, who are you trying to bullshit with your feigned pretense of compassion.

My lover is perfectly healthy, now that he gotten away from using dope, got into a 12 step recovery program, which by the way is spiritually based, and has dealt with many of his prior emotional problems, death wishes, and low self esteem and self rejection issues!

He still has some undealt with emotional issues, but he is perfectly well physically!

And I got news for you Franklin. My AIDS dissidence did not just start in 2001. It started all the way back in the 1980s. Back then, shortly after the concept of AIDS was "invented" to define those gays who were drinking, drugging and antibiotic-ing, depressioning, medicating, and scaring themselves into ill health and sickness, and even before Gallo claimed to have discovered the "probable cause" of AIDS that he called HTLV-iii at the time, I quickly noticed that it was only drug addicts and negative thinkers and self destructive people who got ill.

My gut has always told me there was something wrong with the whole concept of a virus as causing this. For many years, I assumed that the real cause of dying of AIDS was to believe in AIDS, because those who did, seemed to make themselves sick. Sick from the fear, the stress, the worry, and the trauma. Most all were very self destructive, including my own more recent lover, who told me two weeks after we had first met, as well as a few times after that, and this was back in the late 90s, that he told me that he wished he was dead. His life had been very difficult. His mother was a Baptist minister who constantly told him he was going to hell for being gay, he had a painful breakup with his ex before me, his first lover had died after being on AZT. In short, he had been through quite a bit!

But part of me still held that there might be truth to HIV was the cause, but I already had EXTREME DOUBTS because of all that I had already personally seen and experienced and because of all the people I knew and whose experiences I knew well.

And do remember, that I had only heard of the AIDS dissident Peter Duesberg a couple of times, and did not know anything more about him or what he said or why he said it. I did not even know that he had been the leading retrovirologist in the country until he went up against HIV.

However, it wasn't until I was directly confronted with the HIV issue from my own lover in 2001, that I decided to fully educate myself and get to the bottom of it all and find out the truth. He was certain proof to me that there was absolutely something wrong with the HIV tests, and there was something wrong with the entire belief system. At this point, I simply became determined to find out exactly what it was and what was the truth.

Thank God, that I located some of the other dissidents, and they let me know where to find Duesberg's book: Inventing The AIDS VIRUS, Christine Maggiores book: "What If Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong", and a few of the videos.

And wow, did I find some things out. When I had earlier asked the HIV test givers after my lovers diagnosis if there was anything that could cause my lovers test to show false positive, they said no, the tests are 99.9% accurate. After investigating the issue myself, I find there are more than 60 factors that are KNOWN AND PROVEN to cause false positives, and I found out that if the tests show any antibody factors, they are then read by whether or not one is in a High or Low risk category. Just by virtue of being gay, one is automatically in a high risk category and the test is read differently for someone who is heterosexual.

So GO FUCK YOURSELF FRANKLIN.

Don't even try the "now I know why you are in denial because you are traumatized by your emotions" shit with me!

You are the one in denial Franklin. Absolute and total denial. You are the one who has not looked at what the dissidents have said or why they have said it, or what their evidence is. You are the one who does not even know one single solitary soul personally who had been diagnosed, or who died from AZT as my own best friend did in 1993. I know hundreds of those who are diagnosed, who both took the drugs and those who did not. I know the attitudes and beliefs that go with those who stayed healthy, and I know the attitudes and beliefs and fears and addictions and drug effects of those who did not.

You know what would serve someone like you right Franklin? I ONLY PRAY TO GOD THAT SOMEONE NEAR AND DEAR TO YOU IS DIAGNOSED AS HIV POSITIVE, and told by some lame ass ignorant doctor that they must take toxic poisonous medications or they will die.

There is nothing else that would serve you as well as real life experiences with the system, Franklin, JUST SO YOU CAN GET A FUCKING GRIP ON THE REALITY OF WHAT THE HIV DIAGNOSED BELEIVERS GO THROUGH, HOW THEIR OWN FEARS OR HOPELESSNESS DESTROYS THEIR MINDS AND THEIR HEALTH AND HOW THEY ARE THEN MAIMED OR KILLED BY TAKING AIDS DRUGS.

Franklin, If you come near me or any of my friends, you denialist bastard, you really better prey to GOD I don't anything sharp in my hands, because I am not sure I would want to restrain myself!

So go take your pretense of compassion, and go take your know-it-all real AIDS denialism and shove it right up your overly educated and ignorant biased homophobic rascist spoiled rich kid heterosexual ass! Before I do it for you!

And by the way, JP, I mean, Franklin,

Please tell us how much money you have made from researching HIV? Or Please do tell us all of your conflicts of interest with pharmaceutical companies.

The conflicts of interest, along with your own bloated ego that lives in eternal paranoic fear even worse than the fear of death, of ever admitting how you idiots got on the wrong track, and followed the clown Robert Gallo and his mistress Flossie Wong Staal, right over the cliff, and fucked up AIDS research with bias and conflicts of interest, have stopped you from being any kind of decent, honest, and real human being.

This will haunt you HIV believing fools not only completely through-out this life JP Franklin, as it has haunted Gallo, but right on into your next life as well. Or at least until you admit that you egotistic fools admit you fucked up! Bigtime! A fucking tragedy!

Well JP, I mean Franklin,

We all encounter tragedy in our lives. These tragedies are never easy to deal with. I wish you the best in finding a more effective strategy to dealing with the very real tragedy you are facing!.....then the denialism and anger you project, especially onto those who would seek to wake the world from this disaster of human "scientific" ignorance and error.

Hey Franklin. Just like Robster above, I feel there is a strong possibility you were trying to tell yourself something:

"Anger and denial are normal defense mechanisms that all people use at one time or another in their lives. But in the long run, maintaining the anger and denial becomes counter-productive, sapping your emotional energy and blocking you from a productive response to your predicament".

And Franklin, I am absolutely POSITIVE you were trying to tell yourself something with this:

"At some point, to develop a truly helpful response to your predicament, you will need to move past the anger and denial to a more mature response to your problems. They will not disappear just because you choose an alternate reality.

and especially with this Franklin:

I truly hope you find a good therapist to help you with these issues, because I do not think that you will be able to grapple with them successfully on your own. While your hobby of posting vehemently angry and irrational screeds on the web may have helped you express your initial anger over your tragic situation, I believe that it has become counter-productive for you, allowing you to remain stuck in denial and preventing you from finding a way to make the most of your life and relationship. I think you should talk with your therapist about taking a hiatus from surfing or posting on the web for several months, to see if you can explore the issues preventing you from overcoming your denial and developing more productive strategies for dealing with your very scary future Nuremburg Trial situation.

Michael,

You have no evidence, outside of thinking with your gut, or competing hypothesis beyond some postmodernist, magical view where belief alters reality, and the dead deserved it for believing the wrong thing. Are you certain that you aren't a souther baptist?

Who will be haunted, Mikey? The ones with the evidence (us), or those who deny the existence of the evidence (you)?

You can project your guilt, lie about research, return a kind word with hate and empty threats, etc., but it doesn't change anything. HIV is the cause of AIDS, no matter how often, or how passionately you deny it.

Michael, I support you even if some don't. Research needs to be done on the non-progressors and on many persons who have CD4's under 200 and are extremely healthy. Many have given up the antiretrovirals and are leading normal lives. My CD4's have been under 200 for well over a year without incident.

There is a better way to help AIDS persons restore their immune systems and without the nasty side effects and that is with LDN. A study is underway in Africa with this drug and hopefully this will shed more light on this wonder drug.

Contrast the attitudes of medicine and denial.

Franklin writes to Michael
I wish you the best in finding a more effective strategy to dealing with the very real tragedy you are facing.

And Michael says to Franklin
I ONLY PRAY TO GOD THAT SOMEONE NEAR AND DEAR TO YOU IS DIAGNOSED AS HIV POSITIVE
and
Franklin, If you come near me or any of my friends, you denialist bastard, you really better prey to GOD I don't anything sharp in my hands, because I am not sure I would want to restrain myself!

Compassion pity a desire to help

versus

Anger hatred threatened violence.

Michael,

It seems to me that your anger and denial are getting in the way of your ability to think rationally about your predicament. Your vitrioloic posts confirm how threatened you feel by anything that might take away the defense mechanisms that you have come to rely upon.

I suggest that you should take a short hiatus. Give yourself three months where you don't let yourself participate in any HIV blogs. Don't even read them. Try to avoid situations where you feel that you have to constantly fortify your defenses. You have nothing to lose.

Work with your lover and your therapist on your anger and denial and see if you can escape the trap you have built for yourself. On the "Tripoli Thread" you allude to more than 85% of mankind living "on the lower levels of human consciousness." Read the posts you left up above and think about what they reveal about the level of human consciousness you are experiencing.

Show your posts to your therapist and your lover to make sure everyone is aware of the emotional damage you are suffering from your reliance on denial as a defense mechanism.

It will take a lot of work and emotional risk, but if you confront your issues honestly with the help of a competent therapist you can probably get beyond the anger and denial that are poisoning your life. For your own sake, I hope you are successful.

Anyone that doesnt agree with Big Brothers propaganda needs "therapy" Sounds straight from Orwells 1984. Anyone that thinks a microbe thats in 1 of 1000 cells, an unexplainable window period that went from 1 year to 10 and that doesnt kill 99% of animals injected needs to see a shrink! LOL

Gee whiz guys, this person calling himself Franklin is telling me that all of my 25 years of experience, and that the experiences of my dearest friends and lovers is meaningless, and that these experiences have simply put me into "denial". And prior to this he has posted post after post of his own denials and post after post of pejoratives, and calling myself and others ad homs and labeling me and the many thousands who hold the same beliefs that I do, that by the way, DID NOT HAVE HIV POSITIVE LOVERS GET DIAGNOSED ON 911, as some type of evil bad people. Then he writes his little drivel above pretending to be some great compassionate caring person who is looking out for my best interests? This guy is out for himself and his glory and his pocketbook. Notice Franklin has yet to admit to his

And you toads think I should suddenly be nice and sweet to this guy who is simply trying to discredit me with his "your just in denial and need a therapist" crap?

Riiiiiiggghhhtttt! Thats gonna happen. I am slightly more worldly than that! Hey guys! I did not fall off a turnup truck yesterday, as to make me incapable of knowing a snowjob when I see one.

Was it wrong of me to display such anger at him? Sure, it was obnoxious of me to respond to his obnoxious post in such a manner. I was certainly pushing the envelope. And most definintly unsociable of me, even if I really did enjoy angrily typing every word of that post.

Do any of you hiv promoters ever get angry as you respond to any of these interchanges with the dissidents? Nahhhhh. Of course not, cause you guys are all robots. No humanity or human emotions involved at all.

Do I really hope someone close to him is diagnosed as HIV just so he will "wake up"? Nahhh, I don't pray that someone close to Franklin is so diagnosed. I wouldn't even wish that on JP Moore or even Robert Gallo!

Would I really consider taking a sharp object to Franklin? Welllllll, the thought might cross my mind as a temptation born of extreme anger and frustration with such as Franklin, but I have never hit or harmed anyone in my life, and am actually a complete pacifist. Though I would be more inclined to sail a nice chunky piece of dogshit or a dirtclod inches away from his nose, at times. He is really a thickhead. Tough to get through to someone like him.

And Franklin, thank you ever so much for your most kind and loving concern in the latest post you wrote just above.

I would take your advice and see a therapist immediately, on how to best react to people as manipulative as you are, but I myself had been a therapist for many years, and don't really know any in practice who have any more wisdom in dealing with manipulative egotists such as yourself, than I myself already posess.

Though you Franklin, might want to take your own posts to a therapist, to consider why your own personality is so manipulative and egotistical.

Franklin,

How much money you have made from researching HIV?

Would you please tell us all of your conflicts of interest with pharmaceutical companies.

Michael,

It sounds like you consider youself a know-it-all:

I would take your advice and see a therapist immediately, on how to best react to people as manipulative as you are, but I myself had been a therapist for many years, and don't really know any in practice who have any more wisdom in dealing with manipulative egotists such as yourself, than I myself already posess.

Seems a little strange seeing as how your posts are so frequently riddled with fundamental errors.

I really think your emotional well-being would be better served if you focused on your own problems, rather than wasting your therapist's time speculating about mine.