After 8 1/2 years of imprisonment, torture in jail, and a death sentence hanging over their heads, the Tripoli Six (collected links) are back home, and have been granted pardons from the Bulgarian president.
Revere, again, has the details; more at the BBC and New York Times. Many kudos go out to both Revere and Nature reporter Declan Butler for spreading this story out through the blogosphere, and sighs of relief out to the workers themselves and their families and loved ones.
Image from http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/07/24/world/24cnd-libya2.large…
I heard this on the news on my way into work today. My relief is tempered by sadness and anger.
Sad that 8 years of these people's lives have been lost because they were pawns in the frontline of Libya's political machinations with the West, sad that they will never be able to reclaim those lost years and that they themselves will never recieve any restitution. Angry that the world largely stood impotent and uncaring while these brave souls were tortured, raped and abused in a Lybian hellhole when everyone, even those holding them knew they were innocent, and angry that now the West thinks it can now have a cosy political love-in with the fiends who did this and pretend nothing unusual ever happened.
Does anyone know of any fund or charity that is offering to help them pick up the pieces of their lives?
"Angry that the world largely stood impotent and uncaring while these brave souls were tortured, raped and abused..." --DT
Ah, DT once again reveals that he is a disingenuous hack.
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly happy for a resolution to this tragedy, but seeing you, DT, feign indignation and anger at an "impotent and uncaring" world is truly priceless. Since you're obviously a champion of the people and of human rights, perhaps you'll stop standing "impotent and uncaring" yourself, and speak up about the abuses being inflicted upon developing nations by you and your colleagues in the HIV Industry:
So, DT, do you have any spare idignation that you could offer to the relatives of the 532 children from Botswana who have died, this year, from your HIV voodoo? After all, they are acutally dead because of Western medical advice. Dead, as in, of this world, no more. Do you understand that concept?
_______________________________
"Does anyone know of any fund or charity that is offering to help them pick up the pieces of their lives?" -- DT
I'm sure these workers will be just fine. After all, they are the new darlings of the HIV Industry...veritable poster children for the cause.
Now, Chandapiwa Mavundu, who lives in a thatched-roof hut, she could probably use some relief that didn't kill her or her children, but I guess that something that you, DT, are not interested in addressing.
________________________________
..And shame on you, Tara, for ignoring this story and the numerous other recent revelations that are proving quite unflattering to the HIV industry. You certainly aren't doing your part to spread Chandapiwa's story through the blogosphere, and the reasons are quite clear.
Kevin
Kevin, had it been my blog, you'd be banned for that comment. Personal attacks, off-topic, anti-science, using the tradegy of others to push your own unrelated agenda. All in all, can't get much worse than that.
"Kevin, had it been my blog, you'd be banned for that comment. Personal attacks, off-topic, anti-science, using the tradegy of others to push your own unrelated agenda."
Big fan of censorship, eh Kristan? I remember that about you from previous threads. In fact, it's about the only memorable quality you've displayed on this blog.
Ever hear of the phrase, don't blame the messenger. Unlike you, I thoroughly explained my reasoning and provided a link to the original source. Perhaps, you'd like to explain how my post is "using the tragedy of others to push my own agenda". In doing so, you'll need to explain how the tragedy in Botswana is unrelated to the tragedy in Tripoli, too. Once again, I explained my reasons for connecting the two. If you disagree, let's hear your analysis, because that's what real debates are based on, not cowardly pleas for censorship.
As I've noted numerous times, I'm not anti-Science; I'm anti-Bad Science--a distinction that isn't surprisingly beyond the comprehension of a coward, like you.
Translation:
Censorship of the facts = Bad Science.
Kevin
Kevin,
The tragedy of child deaths due to tainted water in Botswana isn't a tragedy of science. Its people taking a really obvious fact in the west like HIV spreads in breastmilk so its better to use formula. And then applying it in a place where formula isn't always best becuase clean water isn't there for it.
What's the solution well its not having everybody breastfeed and risk HIV to their kids. It's getting clean water in so formula is safe. So I agree clean water is vital.
You might notice Kevin it's doctors like this Coovadia who are working on this. Not denialists. Everyone here wanted to help these kids and they didn't have all the facts or made some bad decisions. Should we just stop science? Just wait until we know everything before we try to help. Ever herd of a good samaritan law Kevin.
You're the kinda guy who would sue me after I drive by your accident and stop pull you from your burning car and give you CPR and save your life but you get a scratch on your leg so you go after all the money I made in real estate.
"All in all, can't get much worse than that." -- Kristjan
Oh, it most certainly can get worse, and it will get much worse if philistines like you and DT are representative of the Sheeple, at large. For a glimpse into the future, one only has to look at what is being proposed in Papua, where HIV positives are either going to be microchipped or tattooed. Which do you prefer, Kristjan?
For further clarification of my position, readers can read my reply to Dean Morrison in the previous Tripoli thread. I certainly am glad that the Tripoli Six are free from their wrongful imprisonment, but that doesn't mean that I am going to "play nice" with morons like you and DT.
Still waiting on your analysis, Kristjan...you know, of these "other" very real news items, concerning HIV, that you apparently wish to continue ignoring...
Kevin
"The tragedy of child deaths due to tainted water in Botswana isn't a tragedy of science. Its people taking a really obvious fact in the west like HIV spreads in breastmilk so its better to use formula."
Did you even read the article, Adele?
Let's see...a 1%/month chance of contracting a virus that kills in 10-20 years v/s contracting "immediately lethal diseases". I personally would rather be breastfed by my HIV-positive mother than to die of diarrhea, but I guess the children don't really have a say in this matter. Hell, neither do the parents, but it seems clear that we should leave that decision up to the patients. After all, it's painfully obvious how things turn out when we allow corporations to make those kind of life and death decisions.
You're an idiot, Adele.
_________________________________
Should we just stop science?
If you can't refrain from producing "science" that kills people, then Yes!, idiots like you should stop with the brand of science that you are indulging in, for it is a dangerous brand of science that cares less about human life than it does for protecting the dubious reputation of HIV. That's Bad Science--captial B, captial S.
_________________________________
"Everyone here wanted to help these kids and they didn't have all the facts or made some bad decisions."
"And then applying it in a place where formula isn't always best becuase clean water isn't there for it....Just wait until we know everything before we try to help."
Which facts, exactly, were missing?
Your talking out of both ends, as usual, Adele? I guess that's because it's excruciatingly difficult to defend HIV in such clear-cut case. One more time...HIV dissidents have been demanding "clean water" for "HIV-stricken" countries for two decades, but arrogant asswipes, like you, would rather kill 532 innocent children than admit that dissidents are expressing any legitimate concerns.
In fact, Tara once smugly asked, Do rethinkers ever have a point? Well, I guess you have your answer now, Tara.
Why don't all of the hacks on this blog offer your pathetic excuses and your self-serving rationalizations to the victims' families--face to face. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.
Good Samaritans, my ass.
Kevin
The tragedy of child deaths due to tainted water in Botswana isn't a tragedy of science. Its people taking a really obvious fact in the west like HIV spreads in breastmilk so its better to use formula. And then applying it in a place where formula isn't always best becuase clean water isn't there for it
Are you saying, Adele, that it is not a "really obvious fact" even in the learned Western tradition,that in the areas where the white-robes play the good samaritan there's not always clean water? Tell me was this something you just learned now yourself noble girl?. The really obvious fact, known to little old women as far back as human memory, that breastmilk protects against a lot of real diseases, apart from the imaginary HIV, and that early weaning is bad, is that also something you just learned now mother Adele?
Coovadia has known it for awhile:
Women infected with HIV who exclusively breastfeed their babies reduce the risk of transmitting the virus, researchers in South Africa have found.
Infants who were given solids in addition to breast milk were almost 11 times more likely to become infected compared with those who had only breast milk, the team reports in Saturday's issue of the medical journal The Lancet. Infants who received formula milk or animal milk in addition to breast milk were nearly twice as likely to be infected. In comparison, the risk of transmission to infants fed only breast milk was four per cent.
Here is an even earlier comparison of breastfeeding to no breastfeeding effect on the imaginary infection also authored by Coovadia.
"After adjustment for potential confounders (maternal CD4-cell/CD8-cell ratio, syphilis screening test results, and preterm delivery), exclusive breastfeeding carried a significantly lower risk of HIV-1 transmission than mixed feeding (hazard ratio 0.52 [0.28-0.98]) and a similar risk to no breastfeeding (0.85 [0.51-1.42])"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Ab…
Any mother who can compare this outrage against humanity and common sense to a scratch on the leg in view of all the lives not so "really obviously" saved by formula feeding is about as cold as the freezer in which she keeps her imaginary virus.
HIV dissidents have been demanding "clean water" for "HIV-stricken" countries for two decades
Who doesn't want clean water? What like Bob Gallo's going around demanding dirty water? And only Michael Geiger could say I'm compare deaths to a scratch on the leg.
It's not so complicated. Breastfeeding transmits HIV. HIV- kids who get safe formula have zero chance of HIV. HIV- kids with breastmilk have a chance of getting HIV. It's not too hard to understand. This is really grounded in North America. When it's translated to places without clean water you need people to do training or put in infrastructure. You think anyone's trying to kill kids? I mean except denialists who want to take away drugs and let virus get transmitted.
You take one or two studies and pretend their all there is. And you ignore that they were done by scientists not denialists. You guys whine all you want your not helping anyone.
Kevin - would you be offended if I told you I found your views contemptible? I hope so...
..............
Back to the Tripoli 6 story - its great that they have been released - but this has been at the expense of some murky dealings - they've effectively been hostages for the last eight years - and Gadaffi has been rewarded for letting them go...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/libya/story/0,,2133888,00.html
Kevin - would you be offended if I told you I found your views contemptible? I hope so... -- Dean MOrrison
Don't be silly. I wouldn't expect anything less, particularly considering the commonness of most members of this blog. But evenso, I'm not here to be nice. This, the largest human tragedy in quite some time, has gone on long enough. I'm appalled that you, like so many others on this blog, are too weak-minded to call a spade a spade, for fear of upsetting the system that will support your path to personal advancement, and little else.
I realize that I am a prick on this blog, but at least, I display an appreciation for the facts. As such, it's those very facts that have made me a prick. Once again, that you not even moderately perturbed by these criminally neglected facts is, well, appalling.
Why won't you tell us how you feel about Tara and the rest of the HIV community choosing to exclusively "spread the word" about the Tripoli Six story, to the exclusion of an even more harrowing news item involving HIV? Once again, 532 people died in Botswana because of bad medical advice. Is that no longer newsworthy? Though the story is tragic, how many died in Tripoli, Dean?
I won't hold my breathe for a worthy reply...
Kevin
I'm glad to see that these people were freed.
I'm disgusted to see a self-glorifying troll using this thread to peddle his delusional agenda.
Ditto that.
Re the tangential issue of breastfeeding: The choice needn't be between contaminated formula and HIV transmission by breastfeeding. For many HIV+ mothers, expressing and gently heating breastmilk and letting it cool is a good solution. It's not perfect--expressing is a nuisance, the soothing connection between mother and child during breastfeeding is limited, and the wood or charcoal needed to boil the water in which the clean glass jar of milk is warmed (off heat) can be hard to come by. But this method kills the HIV and preserves most of the nutrition of breast milk, and doesn't require costly formula or risk ingestion of dirty water.
expressing and gently heating breastmilk and letting it cool... expressing is a nuisance, the soothing connection between mother and child during breastfeeding is limited
Hahaha... "gently heating", "soothing connection between mother and child". Haahah... Is that the lyrical replacement for insensitive, ham handed Adele? Give me a friggin' break!
AIDStruth, up your game before I fall asleep will you?
You guys are sooo in deep shit. I suggest you stick with the code of silence approach - and that's free advice too. The last you'll get from me if you keep it at this level.
Not saying that Jeanne is not a nice name. God IS gracious.
Haahhaaah
Is that a promise?
You know how those (promises) go Chris, E-LISA will just become "Blot, West R.N." and we're back to:
"HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED!!!!...."
Hey Wes. Yes thank God the doctors and nurses in Tripoli were finally freed.
It is a shame they, as well as the government officials in Tripoli, did not read any of the 30 some books written by the AIDS dissidents, or they would not have gotten caught up in that mess to begin with!
However, Wes, there is absolutely no need for you to call people "trolls" simply because YOU happen to disagree with what they believe. You like calling people names? Well how about right back at yah buddy! Hows this. You, Wes, are obviously one of those TRUE AIDS Denialists that deny the reality of the problems that the AIDS dissidents have repeatedly exposed with the popular but unproven "HIV causation of AIDS" theory/belief.
The AIDS dissidents have been able to expose one helluva lot of valid information in between attacks and ad homs from those AIDS denialists such as yourself, Wes, who would attack from a completely uneducated and uninformed and biased point of view.
Until you yourself have taken an HONEST and UNBIASED look at the what and why of what the dissidents are saying, you are to be classified as just another AIDS denialist who denies the reality of the problems in diagnosing anyone as HIV positive.
Jeanne, you said "this method kills the HIV".
Considering that those diagnosed as HIV positive have been diagnosed on very flimsy evidence, such as a single test like the highly flawed Orasure Oraquick that is usually given in third world countries, and considering that the evidence of HIV as supposedly even being the cause of AIDS has been repeatedly shown to be highly questionable, and and considering much more that the dissidents have written 30 books about and several videos about, that you, Jeanne, are seemingly unfortunately not aware of as well, it certainly seems to me that it is premature to base the conclusion on things such as "breastmilk needs to be heated to kill the HIV", when you do not even know for sure, but simply for sure believe, that the problem was HIV to begin with.
There are more than 60 factors that are proven to cause HIV tests to show false positive.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cjtestfp.htm
Perhaps you should make yourself aware of them before you jump to conclusions?
The Oraquick rapid test which is most commonly used in Africa was found to be giving a PROVEN 1/4th false positives. Yet the test is still given to diagnose these unfortunate fellow humans that are completely unaware of the problems with the tests or diagnosis or science. They never did figure out what was wrong with the Oraquick test, but that did not stop our CDC from purchasing $3 million dollars worth just 3 months after the problems were exposed!
Wake up girl. You have been brainwashed by the AIDS denialists and are making assumptions that may very well not be based in reality!
"Well how about right back at yah buddy! Hows this. You, Wes, are obviously one of those TRUE AIDS Denialists that deny the reality of the problems that the AIDS dissidents have repeatedly exposed with the popular but unproven "HIV causation of AIDS" theory/belief." ad nauseum...
Shorter version of Michael:
"I know you are, but what am I?"
Well if it isn't the most immature member of all of the AIDS DENIALISTS, our dear denialist friend Roy Hinkly.
This response also answers your question Roy: "but what am I?"
Micheal,
It is a shame they, as well as the government officials in Tripoli, did not read any of the 30 some books written by the AIDS dissidents, or they would not have gotten caught up in that mess to begin with!
Oooh. 30 books. 30 books of lies and no competing hypothesis compared to hundreds of thousands of pages of articles filled with reproducible observations, data and evidence.
The AIDS dissidents have been able to expose one helluva lot of valid information in between attacks and ad homs from those AIDS denialists such as yourself, Wes, who would attack from a completely uneducated and uninformed and biased point of view.
Valid information? When was that? Not to be flippant, but the denialists, from Duesberg to Perth, have yet to produce anything of scientific value. BTW, it isn't an ad hominem if its true. Your position is based on lies, deliberate misinterpretations of data, and a denial of the totality of the evidence.
Until you yourself have taken an HONEST and UNBIASED look at the what and why of what the dissidents are saying, you are to be classified as just another AIDS denialist who denies the reality of the problems in diagnosing anyone as HIV positive.
From the point of view of Michael, an honest and unbiased look requires believing what he believes. If you find a book or youtube flick more compelling than research by working scientists, then the denialists need you. That's how they hooked cooler, after all.
the denialists have proposed expirements that could prove or falsify the hiv hypothesis, the fundamentalists have never conducted an expirement that was intended to prove or falsify the hiv hypothesis, they assumed it to be true because the government said so.
If what I say is not true, please provide me an expirement that was designed after the press conference that cleary states in the study objectives the intent to test/prove/falsify the theory that hiv causes aids. HOw can you confirm something that you already believed to be true?
Nobody hooked me robster, Im just a little more impressed with Dr. shyh ching Lo's mycoplasma incognitus than Gallo's hiv.
Why? well, Koch said to prove a microbe is pathenogenic you needed to induce disease in expiremental animals. Lo's mycoplasma did in mice and monkeys, and gallo's pet microbe didn't. Gallo didnt even give a scientific reason why koch's rules (im not saying his postulates are perfect) should not apply, he just ignored them in 1984.
Here is a summary of Lo's work, the only scientist to discover a microbe that induced disease in animals. Found by PCR in CFS/GWI etc
http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html
Read http://www.projectdaylily.com/ to find out how mycoplasma was part of the biowarfare program.
one of the very few scientists since koch I meant to say, to discover a microbe w an animal model.
Cooler, if the denialists claim to have such experimental designs, why haven't they tested them? Two reasons, they know they can't disprove them, and they have no desire to prove to themselves that they are wrong. Furthermore, Koch's postulates have been fulfilled for HIV, as has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, by accidental infection of lab workers and healthcare workers.
Hey Robster, since you enjoy abuse so much, you are a lying pathetic little weasel of a brainwashed HIVophobe and AIDS denialist. As usual, you have nothing intelligent to say, just ad hominem denialism and lies. Obviously, you have many very deep seated emotional problems, and probably even get off on the negative attention. By the way, your rambling and mindless post had nothing in it worthy of response.
But nonetheless, this post is for you as well Mr. denialist weasel:
http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/06/introduction_to_hiv_and_hiv_d…
Robster the AIDS reality denialist said: "Furthermore, Koch's postulates have been fulfilled for HIV".
That is a lie unless you can find a study where HIV was isolated, purified, put into a host, caused disease, and was reisolated. No such proof exists, and SIV is NOT HIV!
The AIDS reality denialist also said: "by accidental infection of lab workers and healthcare workers".
Another total lie completely unsubstantiated by anything but third person bullshit stories that fail to mention any actual documented cases or any data about what disease any needlestick case supposedly came down with, and also fails to mention if any illness happened in the presence of illicit drug use or aids drug effects such as the notorious effects of AZT.
Robster, you are a denialist liar and have never once substantiated even one of your ridiculous statements. Shove an HIV test up your ass and go eat some AZT!
Another lie
The "denialists" have not tested their proposed experiment because they have no funding, they would if they could. Duesberg proposed a study that would follow 2 groups matched for everything except one group that was hiv positive and one that was hiv negative, see who lives the longest. This experiment could prove or falsify the hiv hypothesis, this is the only way to test the barely detectable/no animal model hiv hypothesis.
Of course you guys will claim that it's too dangerous to conduct this study, you must get on the Megadoses of chemotherapy/ AZT as soon as possible!
Well then you guys have no evidence of your hypothesis, just speculation. Well since hiv "denial" seems to be spraeding within the gay community, you could follow 10-20 people who just turned hiv positive who are never planning to take ARV"S, because of the evil denialists, and who have no other risk factors(AZT/coinfections/drugs/catastrophic stress) and see what happens to them. Finally an experiment that could prove/falsify the hiv hypothesis. Without such an experiment youre just left with a microbe thats in 1/1000 blood tcells with no animal model/no symptoms and a unexplainable "10 year window" period.
See hiv fact or fraud on google video, how many scientists question hiv.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064591712431946916
Another lie is that any of the dissidents or anybody other than you and the other HIVophobes is an AIDS denialist.
You Robster, are the AIDS denialist, who simply lies about having any proof, and then denies anything factual that is presented to you.
Cooler, this experiment wouldn't pass IRB rules on ethics or safety, beyond not being useful. We already have that information (as has been pointed out repeatedly) of HIV infected individuals compared to HIV- people. Want to compare groups? How about HIV+ vs HIV- children. What about HIV+ vs HIV- hemophiliacs? Those are just a couple of easy ones. There simply isn't another hypothesis that explains the evidence as well as HIV as the cause of AIDS. And despite what Michael claims, there is ample evidence, and we have offered it here over and over again.
Have you ever wondered why Duesberg would suggest an experiment that cannot be performed? He is using it as a trick, to make it look like he has some kind of argument to make.
See hiv fact or fraud on google video, how many scientists question hiv.
Videos on google are not scientific evidence, and there aren't many scientists who "question" HIV. That kind of line is exactly like what you would hear from a creationist.
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Michael, can't you spend your time coming up with a competing hypothesis, not more red herrings and distractions?
Isn't it weird on a science blog, how the science gets pushed away. Michael writes essays on penises and cutting off breasts and masturbation and sexual repression of people he never met. Nestle and ELISA gets hung up on what people's names mean.
All I'm curious about anymore is, whether its Michael or Eugene is Nestle and ELISA. And if Eugene is a Maniotis sock or if Eugene just imitates Maniotis.
Doesn't really matter though and it says there's not much to discuss right now. When people don't understand 532 children died of water born illness in a bad rainy season and they blame it on science instead well there's not much they will understand.
Isn't it weird on a science blog, how the science gets pushed away.
It's not weird at all, Adele...because this is an AIDS propaganda blog masquerading as a "science" blog.
So, your criticism is misplaced.
Adele wrote:
"Michael writes essays on penises and cutting off breasts and masturbation and sexual repression of people he never met."
Me thinks ye doth protest too much, there, Miss Sexually repressed of the year. Your post just goes to prove my point of how sexually repressed and dysfunctional most all of you HIV reality denialists are.
Furthermore, nowhere in any of my posts did I ever say anything about "cutting off breasts". http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/06/introduction_to_hiv_and_hiv_d…
Your false and lying accusation just goes to show how upsetting any intelligent discussions of human sexuality really are for you, and shows how delusional you are!
And you are right! There is nothing further to discuss with someone as delusional as you, or to discuss with someone who is incapable of having a healthy sense of scepticism for every single HIV paper that was ever produced.
Your inability to show any healthy scepticism or accept that there are any criticisms to be made prove beyond a shadow of ANY DOUBT that you are the real AIDS DENIALIST.
Enough.