Worst measles epidemic in 20 years in Britain

This is not only a tragedy, it's a crime. For one person, supported by a flock of other denialists, to essentially be responsible for an epidemic--it's an outrage.

Use the word 'denialist' in the UK and you stand the risk of being accused of 'ad hominem' subliminal comparison with the little German bloke with the 'tache'...

But 'denialist', is in fact, too nice a word for those that knowingly undermine science for their own gain.

I can think of several Anglo-Saxon epiphets that come near to doing the job - but I wouldn't sully your blog with them Tara...

And worst of all are The Observer. I will _never_ buy that filthy rag again.(http://www.badscience.net/?p=464)

At first, I hadn't appreciated that failure to get one's kids vaccinated might have wider consequences than simply some misery for the unvaccinated kids when they get infected (and their parents, but no sympathy needed there!) plus a very small risk of significant complications.

But someone pointed out that there are kids (and adults too I guess) who immune systems are compromised, so they cannot be vaccinated, and they can get into serious difficulties if infected with measles. So there is a wider social responsibility to keep these diseases at bay. And non-vaccinators shirk that responsibility.

But 'denialist', is in fact, too nice a word for those that knowingly undermine science for their own gain.

For their own gain? How can one gain on vaccination by refusing the thing? A vaccination manufacturer may possibly make some money by promoting and selling the product, but how can one gain by refusing them?

Wake up, my friends. People who refuse vaccination have many arguments which really hold the candle.

I think vaccinators should read this kind of stuff before accusing others of greed.

I'm immediately reminded of a previous outbreak of vaccine denialists, in the 1970s. A terrific article in The Lancet showed what happened with the anti-pertussis-vaccine movements back in the 1970s: Gangarosa, E. J., Galazka, A. M., Wolfe, C. R., Phillips, L. M., Gangarosa, R. E., Miller, E., and Chen, R. T. (1998). Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story. Lancet 351, 356-361.

I don't think I can post images in the comments here, but I've put one of the figures -- showing new outbreaks of pertussis in England and Wales following antivaccine propaganda in 1974 -- up on my blog..

Those who don't remember history are doomed to have their children die.

The vitamin and magnet market that denialists have created by telling people to avoid vaccinations sounds like one way they make money. Unless they are giving all that away for free? Oh wait, that was just Merck, the evil big pharma that gave away river blindness medication 100% free of charge. Those evil pharmaceutical companies.

The vitamin and magnet market that denialists have created by telling people to avoid vaccinations sounds like one way they make money.

Vitamin market?
Magnet market?
What are you talking about?

The well informed people, you call "Denialist", who tell people to avoid vaccination, tell people to avoid vaccination. End of story.

Some people may make big money selling vitamines. Others do so by selling drugs. Or magnets. Or cars. Or loafs of bread or tobacco or alcohol. But that's another story.

Wow, a whale.to link. What's next, pointing us to the mothering.com forums?

What's next, pointing us to the mothering.com forums?

I guess you don't care much where the finger points as long as you can bite it off. It's insane though. Today mainstreamers can tell interesting information from crap by merely spelling at a URL.
Might it be they cannot go beyond spelling a URL? Interesting thought... It explains quite well the behavior of the crowd.

"Use the word 'denialist' in the UK and you stand the risk of being accused of 'ad hominem' subliminal comparison with the little German bloke with the 'tache'...

But 'denialist', is in fact, too nice a word for those that knowingly undermine science for their own gain.

I can think of several Anglo-Saxon epiphets that come near to doing the job - but I wouldn't sully your blog with them Tara...

Posted by: Dean Morrison | September 4, 2007 11:25 PM"

Dean unfortunately you tend to use the word denialist at every available opportunity to condemn those with whom you vehemently disagree - particularly about GM food, the world's climate and so on - irrespective of any financial aspect. And in so doing you diminish its meaning. So you aren't being quite straight here.
Anyhow, let me agree with you now, the term "denialist" is quite apt here, especially when applied to the UK press (particularly the scum at the Mail) who, having access to the background of the issue, deliberately whipped up a hysterical scare purely for profit and influence. I doubt anyone's chances of success in suing them, but it would be good to see them squirm a bit and shown to be the fabricators and liars because their attitude has been, and still is, malicious and hateful.

"The well informed people, you call "Denialist", who tell people to avoid vaccination"

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"Well informed", in this case, means denying that the measles virus causes measles at all. In jspreen's bizzarro universe, measles is mankind's little helper, and if you have measles, this is the sign that you are recovering from cancer.

So, well informed sort of means, "dangerously deluded."

Tara,

you really know how to "work it"! Great propaganda!

I'm not saying that this measles epidemic isn't true, or that vaccination is a bad thing, not at all. But why haven't I heard about this in the mainstream media?

Anyway...I really give you credit for being a master propagandist. Or is vaccination denial different from HIV/AIDS denial? It seems that you expect your readers to make the connection that not bowing to any edict imposed by medical authority, or that questioning medical authority is "denial", and is always a dangerous thing.

Did you ever answer that hypothetical question asked of you a while back about drugging your kids ICC-style if they tested "positive" for "HIV"?

I remember that you avoided answering that question. It seemed to me that if you really believed in your own AIDS propaganda that the answer to that question would've been an emphatic YES.

But why haven't I heard about this in the mainstream media?

What do you consider "mainstream?" It looks like this went out over the wire; it's in multiple newspapers in Britain. Is The Times better for you?

And yes, it is denial when even Wakefield's co-authors have dismissed his "evidence" of harm from the MMR, when many studies have shown no connection between autism and vaccines, or thimerosal and autism, etc. Check out "Vaccine" by Arthur Allen--these myths persist long after the science shows they're false.

Check out "Vaccine" by Arthur Allen--these myths persist long after the science shows they're false.

When do you reckon you'll do some research for your own, Tara, find out about some real myths and who showed when who was wrong?
Believe me, you should read everything you can find about Professor Antoine Bechamp. Once you've found out that Louis Pasteur was an imposter, you'll be ready to start from scratch and discover for yourself the whole story of the vaccination myth.

> But 'denialist', is in fact, too nice a word for those that knowingly undermine science for their own gain.

>For their own gain? How can one gain on vaccination by refusing the thing? A vaccination manufacturer may possibly make some money by promoting and selling the product, but how can one gain by refusing them?

In response to jspreen's comments above:
Dr Wakefield, the key denialist in the measles debacle, gained a great deal by promoting the notion that the MMR vaccine was harmful. see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2524335.html

Sam,

There's another issue that is also important. Vaccines don't always provide immunity to everyone who gets them. So you are relying on the immunity of the people around you to protect you if the vaccine fails to elicit a sufficient response in your own body.

There's a reason they call it "public health".

Woo hoo... references to the whale.to site as a place to do "research" with his perpetual webpages of selective quotes! That is the site of well known Usenet loon John Scudamore.

Scudamore claims that satanic black lines burned his bum! From http://www.whale.to/b/cbblack.html ... "I also burnt
my ass on it some years back when I was experimenting with psychedelics, similar to a chemical burn right through my trousers, where the trousers were unscathed apart from a flattening of the cord. I thought, first, that I had been given a metaphysical kick up the backside! Perhaps I had."

(one wonders what kind of brain damage was caused by the psychedelics)

Whale.to is not a very reliable source... Comments about John Scudamore in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-vaccinationists/Individuals include "a large and slightly sorted collection of conspiracy theory save the whale,
illuminati, weird "science" and stuff which is not corrected to reflect demonstrated mistakes."

jspreen, perhaps with all your research you can tackle this question that I have posted several times, and as of yet have not received any kind of real answer:

The MMR in question was approved for use in the USA in 1971, and in then 1988 in the UK (the UK switched to a vaccine with a safer mumps component). Why did the Merck MMR vaccine start being a problem only in the UK after around 20 years of use in the USA and several other countries?

(by the way, one of the countries it is NOT being used in is Japan... where college campuses were closed due to a measles epidemic)

I learned that the MMR in the UK was the one developed in the USA over 30 years ago, and about its main researcher in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinated-Defeat-Worlds-Deadliest-Diseases/dp/00…

Just to see how well you have done your research: Why is one of the mumps strains used in vaccines called "Jeryl Lynn"? (you would know if you read the referenced book)

When do you reckon you'll do some research for your own, Tara, find out about some real myths and who showed when who was wrong?

I *do* research for a living, jspreen...how much have you done? I've injected little mice with nasty bacteria and watched them sicken, while their littermates (no bacteria but similar "terrain" as far as genetics and nutrition) remained just fine. How do you explain that, as the only difference between them was the microbe we injected them with?

How do you explain that, as the only difference between them was the microbe we injected them with?

How do I explain that? I can think of one thousand perfect explanations, but would you care?

You know what, Tara? A phrase like "I've injected little mice with nasty bacteria and watched them sicken" is enough to make me feel sick. Hey! without bacteria! You did it!

Anyway...
I think it's stupid to keep mice or whatever animal in captivity and think that the only thing you did to them before they fell ill was that "nasty bacteria" injection.
As it's pure nonsense to reduce the difference between the well-being and the ill-being of a multi-billion cell macro-organism, equiped with a brain and all the other stuff, to some mono-cellular micro-organism.

Can't you understand that, Tara? No? Then time has come for you to google "Antoine Béchamp"

I think it's stupid to keep mice or whatever animal in captivity and think that the only thing you did to them before they fell ill was that "nasty bacteria" injection.

But do you have any evidence?

And worst of all are The Observer. I will _never_ buy that filthy rag again.(http://www.badscience.net/?p=464)

"I *do* research for a living, jspreen...how much have you done? I've injected little mice with nasty bacteria and watched them sicken, while their littermates (no bacteria but similar "terrain" as far as genetics and nutrition) remained just fine. How do you explain that, as the only difference between them was the microbe we injected them with?"

Funny how you rely on an animal model as your best evidence, when there is none for hiv, 99% of animals injected nothing happens. I guess we have different standards depending on what the Drug companies and Fauci allow us to beleive.

Sometimes you need an animal model, sometimes you dont, depends on the political and financial circumstances of the time.

Funny how DR. shyh ching Lo md phd cheif of the armed forces Labratory injected mice and monkeys with mycoplasma incognitus and they all sickened and died and many scientists like you and the rest of your pals here dismiss his work,(many dont by the way) so now there is an epidemic of CFS/AIDS/RA/Fibromyalgia, DR.Nicolson has found this by PCR in all of them. (Cant look for antibodies, the animals only had a weak antibody response when near death)

Unfortunately, Most people have not heard of it because the scientific establishment is controlled by the CDC and the drug co's (both with obvious conflicts of interest.) and their gatekeeping sycophants who troll these blogs.

You and many of the other science bloggers here seem like robots that cannot possibly beleive they (Fauci and the Drug Co's) could be wrong on anything, so if someone comes along with research they dont endorse, like DR. Lo and Dr. Nicolson, they must be debunked, even when they have animal models, and the drug company Chiron that gave us Hepatitis C didn't, neither did Gallo!

All of you should learn from your scientific elder Dr. Shyh Ching Lo who was brought here by the army bc he was the most brilliant scientist of his generation. Here is work from a real scientist.

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html

Lurkers should see hiv fact or fraud

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6830231400057553023

Mycoplasma was part of the biowarfare program, Read Project Day Lily, to learn about this Google it.

Dr. Lo is one of the only scientists since Koch to discover a microbe that induced disease in animals, bow your head in awe and learn something science bloggers. Failure to spread the word about this microbe will cull the population

one of the very few scientists since Koch

Woo-hoo Tara, you sure do attract a lot of wackos! Maybe i'll come up with some weird ideas and post them with my hosting service in Tobago too.

You can't convince denialists, any more than you can tell an evangelical that virgins don't have babies. They just can't let go of their little notions, and never have any real data to present.

woo hooo! Dr. shyh ching lo md phd is no wacko, thats why hes the army's highest ranking scientist, unlike you, a hack that barely passed college that probably sees about 3 old ladies a week.

Oh my!

BTW, if any of these altie geniuses knows a better way to prevent disease, and can prove it, id like to see it. An "appeal to authority" or "ad hominem" attack doesn't pass as science.

Doesn't pass as science? Yeah, like I'm going to let someone who barely passed college and sees 3 old ladies a week tell me what science is!

Who is this cooler/apy troll...i don't recognize it as a regular on SB. I'll stop feeding it now, sorry.

And if cooler/apy wins the comment contest, im pitching a fit.
Vaccination is the single most effective public health measure after clean water. Feel free to give up the clean water...it's a conspiracy.

"thats why hes the army's highest ranking scientist"

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Ah, the Army... so much good science coming out of that revered research institution.

A quick pubmed search would show even cooler that Lo's work has been improved upon and refined, and that mycoplasma's are a research topic in HIV/AIDS. Of course, that doesn't agree with his preconcieved notions, so he just ignores it.

What's really weird is how these guys all stick up for each other. I mean, cooler thinks that AIDS is caused by a microbe that jspreen thinks is just a little cancer cleaner, but they see themselves as being on the same side... despite the fact that both of them think the other is a delusional moron.

And people say there is no denialist paradigm! Its like saying that fish don't swim in water.

Pal, i was making fun of cooler.

Never said aids is caused by mfi, Aids is a complicated illness that can be caused by many things, like the cell killing chemo drug azt etc.

Lets conduct an experiment give one group of monkeys 1200mg of azt one group of monkeys hiv and one group Mycoplasma penetrans/incognitus..................we know hiv wont do anything they already inoculated 200 chimps and none have gotten/died of aids after 20 years (2-3 might have had low cd4's, but so would you if you lived in a cage for 20 years)

Azt would probably kill the monkeys, and we know so would mycoplasma incognitus would kill sicken primates as Lo showed. Kochs postulates have been turned upside down. Microbes with animal models are ignored in favor of those without because Fauci and Merck said so.

I propose we save these poor animals, and peoplewho think LO's mycoplasma is harmless should get an injection, people that think AZT is a wonder drug should take the doses prescribed in 1989, and hiv deniers should take an inoculation of hiv..............using kochs postulates as a reference the hiv patients would be fine, the mycoplasma penetrans patients would come dowm with CFS/ALS and die, and the AZT takers would probaly get AIDS, what else would you expect from a chemo treatment designed to kill cells?

Sorry bout that apy, my irony was sleeping.

Now back to measles:

Will someone please answer this question?

The MMR in question was approved for use in the USA in 1971, and then 1988 in the UK (the UK switched to a vaccine with a safer mumps component). Why did the Merck MMR vaccine start being a problem only in the UK after around 20 years of use in the USA and several other countries?

(by the way, one of the countries that MMR is NOT being used in is Japan... where college campuses were closed due to a measles epidemic, and had Little League participants come down with measles)

PS: Seth Manapio, uh... about the Army and medical research... you might want to know that Orac of Respectful Insolence has received grants from them. Also I would like to remind you that both Walter Reed and William Gorgas were crucial in eradicating the spread of one particular disease (I was born in Gorgas Hospital). Also as an Army brat I received medical care from several young doctors who were paying back the US Military for their medical education by serving as medical officers for about 5 years (actually my now civilian dentist served 20 years in the US Air Force). There are also several civilian emergency departments that use research from the US Army Institute of Surgical Research. Should you need a review of the Army's medical history check this out: http://history.amedd.army.mil/default_index2.html

And as measles is a public health issue, you might want to know that the US Public Health Service is a uniformed service: http://www.usphs.gov/AboutUs/agencies.aspx ... from that website it shows that in Atlanta "More than half of the medical officers within the Commissioned Corps are assigned to CDC."

Also, you should ignore cooler. He seems to believe in both the Illuminati and the Tooth Fairy. Plus Jan Spreen thinks that germs do not exist, and all you have to do to avoid disease is to find "your happy place" (shades of Robin William's Peter Pan character in the movie "Hook", which also involved a magical fairy).

"Seth Manapio, uh... about the Army and medical research... you might want to know that Orac of Respectful Insolence has received grants from them."

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Yes. But he isn't one of the army's top scientists. He is a civilian researcher. Damn near every scientist working for, or being funded by, the army is a civilian and works for a civilian institution, they are not "army top scientists." It isn't a research institution. I doubt Lo is a member of the armed forces himself.

"I propose we save these poor animals, and peoplewho think LO's mycoplasma is harmless should get an injection,"

----------

See what I mean? Cooler knows that mycoplasma research is ongoing. He know that AIDS/HIV researchers are interested in mycoplasma. He knows that there is no earthly reason why Human IV should attack simians and the Simian IV does attack them, but he still says the same things every time. No regard for facts at all. In many ways, cooler is an automata, completely predictable and uninspired.

Spreen and cooler are simply beneath contempt. It would do you as much good to be contemptuous of a computer. But they are worth studying. There is a pattern to their thoughts that I find darkly fascinating.

What happens to these people? At what point does their inner fantasy life take over their ability to analyze inputs and outputs? Look at cooler... he touts Lo as a brilliant Army Researcher--leaving aside quibbles about what that means--and yet he doesn't think he can trust government sources such as the NIH or the Department of Defense. Does anyone else see the disconnect here?

The amount of compartmentalization and rationalization that some of these things require is just amazing.

And disconcerting. If we don't know why these guys went crazy, how do we know it won't happen to us?

You are making unfounded biased assertions. Perhaps you also feel that Taubenberger has not performed quality research on the 1918 influenza virus because he is a civilian at the Department of Molecular Pathology Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

Next time, try dissing the researcher's work and how it faired in peer review, not the institute he works for, nor his status as being in the service or being a civilian.

Or, better yet... tell cooler that it had nothing to do with measles. Not that he can tell the difference between one virus versus the other (he probably thinks rubeola and rubella are the same thing... and neither have anything to do with HIV or AIDS).

Note that neither he nor Spreen have even attempted to answer my question.

Come on folks!!! Why is it that a vaccine, the Merck MMR, only started to cause problems when it was introduced in the United Kingdom? Almost two decades after it had been used in the United States and several other countries.

Seth continues: "And disconcerting. If we don't know why these guys went crazy, how do we know it won't happen to us?"

There is a hint in the Scudamore quote I used to describe the quality of material in the whale.to site. It has something to do with self-medication (and with some people, not taking their meds --- there are real neural conditions, you might want to read some books by V. S. Ramachandran and Oliver Sacks).

According to the article, there had been 136 cases of measles confirmed from January through June--and an additional 350 odd cases between June and August, resulting in the plea for vaccinations

There's nothing in the article that states these 486 measles cases occurred in un-vaccinated kids.

Aren't you guys putting the cart before the horse?

Ky,

There's nothing in the article that states these 486 measles cases occurred in un-vaccinated kids.

Stastically, we wouldn't expect them all to occur in unvaccinated kids. We would expect most of them to be there, but also to see some in kids who received one or even two MMR vaccines, as no vaccine elicits immunity in 100% of those who receive it. Nevertheless, the article does say:

The rise in the number of measles cases over the summer has been particularly pronounced in areas where vaccination rates are traditionally low, such as traveller sites.

...which we would expect if low vaccination rates predisposed to an epidemic. And though it doesn't give the exact number:

But many of the cases are among unvaccinated schoolchildren.

From http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/child_health/art… ...
"Doctors' surgeries at Hackney, East London, are dealing with the effect of reduced levels of vaccination, with more than 120 measles cases in the past three months. Most of those were in children under 5 who had not been immunised."

Now will YOU answer my question? Why is it that a vaccine, the Merck MMR (that was developed over 35 years ago), only became a problem when it was finally adopted in the UK after almost two decades of use by the USA and other countries?

For a reference on this, check out the last chapters of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinated-Defeat-Worlds-Deadliest-Diseases/dp/00…

Sorry, my question was directed towards Ky Sanderson.

Why is it that a vaccine, the Merck MMR, only started to cause problems when it was introduced in the United Kingdom?

Why do you ask a question if you don't want to listen to the answer?
Well, WTF, I'll try to give you a more precise hint. Vaccinations have always caused problems whenever and whereever they were introduced. The idea of protection by vaccination is pure nonsense. I don't say bacteries don't exist, I say they are not the initial cause of a disease but part of an overall process of which you have no idea.

Why don't you all stop diatribing for just an hour or two and read some pages about the findings of Prof Antoine Bechamp for starters.

I LOVE antoin bechamp! Wasn't he the guy who wrote Le petit Prince? The little prince? Kids love it too.

"Perhaps you also feel that Taubenberger has not performed quality research on the 1918 influenza virus because he is a civilian at the Department of Molecular Pathology Armed Forces Institute of Pathology."

----------------

Um... no. Did I say that Lo was incompetent, or hadn't performed quality research? I think what I said was that other scientists are working on the same problem and have built on his work.

Just because I recognize that the Armed Forces Institue of Pathology is a separate institution from "the army" doesn't mean I don't respect the researchers who work there.

The point I was trying to make (and it is a DAMN fine poit) is that cooler touts Lo as an "army top scientist", to demonstrate that Lo must be really good. And yet, cooler thinks that he can't trust other top researchers at NIH, DOD, or even Lo's own institution. That's the disconnect I'm trying to point out in cooler's thought patterns: the credentials only matter when they are connected to someone he already agrees with.

Sometimes you need an animal model, sometimes you dont, depends on the political and financial circumstances of the time.

It is always nice to have an animal model if you can. But sadly, not all diseases that infect humans will infect an animal. Take cholera for example. Causes wicked diahrrea in people, but it's *really* hard to get it to infect an animal (it infects infant mice, but no other animals). Or take Mycobacterium leprae. Infects people. But the only animal it will infect? Armadillos. You have to wonder how many animals they tried before they found it would infect armadillos. How about smallpox? Doesn't infect anything besides people. That's why it's been possible to eradicate it. There's no animal reservoir.

However, it could just be that cholera, leprosy and smallpox are just caused by taking AZT... Oh, wait...

jspreen said " I don't say bacteries don't exist, I say they are not the initial cause of a disease but part of an overall process of which you have no idea."

Measles is caused by a virus, not bacteria.

Oh, and I do want to hear your answer, because I expect it to be very amusing (though my answer has to do with a gastrointestinal doctor who was not qualified to treat pediatric patients was paid by a lawyer for specific "research" results --- the lawyer even provided the research subjects... and they put out a press release that caused a panic, see the articles listed here:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/issues/C30/ ).

And you continued: "Why don't you all stop diatribing for just an hour or two and read some pages about the findings of Prof Antoine Bechamp for starters."

Bechamp died in 1908, before the discovery of virus (one of the reasons a bacteria is confusedly named "haemophilus infuenzae" was it was postulated to be the cause of the 1918 influenza pandemic, which was actually caused by a virus). His theories have no real bearing on why countries like the UK and Japan are experiencing large increases of measles cases after reducing vaccination.

Perhaps you should catch up on over a century of science, biology and epidemiology.

I would suggest you read Gina Kolata's book _Flu, the Story of the Great Influenza Epidemic of 1918_, John Barry's _The Great Influenza_ (both books are about the same epidemic, though from a different angle, read Kolata's first because Barry gets more into medical research and education history), then _Plagues and People_ by William McNeill, and finally both _Vaccine_ by Arthur Allen and _Vaccinated_ by Paul Offit (the latter is where you will find out how the mumps vaccine strain "Jeryl Lynn" was names).

Also you need to peruse these chapters of the "Pink Book" that are online: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm

Really, do try to get yourself into the 21st century. Otherwise you will be just like one particular Usenet loon, who while she is a very sweet lady, claims that symptoms of colitis, and a bunch of other diseases are caused by other people thinking about them while on certain drugs.... she tried to tell me the reason my son had seizures as a 2 day old infant was because someone on "uppers" was thinking about him!. See:
http://www.newsbackup.com/about1365061.html (and she is more consistent and saner than John Scudamore, the whale.to guy!)

Oh, and Mr. Manapio --- good, I'm glad you now understand that you need to focus on the actual researcher and the quality of his work. Stay away from comments like "Ah, the Army... so much good science coming out of that revered research institution", well, because it failed as a sarcastic statement because it implies an untrue statement and was very silly. Also try to resist changing the focus of a thread from measles to some other subject. That might make your "DAMN fine point" more clear.

(personally I would ask cooler to post Lo's actual research on measles, which as far as I can tell does not exist... though I actually ignore cooler, just like I ignore Gail, Jan Drew and other usenet loons --- though since Scudamore posted his method to avoid satanic black lines on Usenet, I just have to repost it because it is just so funny!).

Wow.

Tara, you attract the looniest trolls (trolliest loons?) I have ever seen. Much more entertaining than the ones PZ or Orac get.

e-okul hi,

yes HCN :S

Sorry, my question was directed towards Ky Sanderson.

Wow.

Tara, you attract the looniest trolls (trolliest loons?) I have ever seen. Much more entertaining than the ones PZ or Orac get.

thank you

Thx.

thanks. by Brooklyn