Yet another zombie antivaccine meme rises from the grave to join its fellows
Oh, no, not again!
It was just two days ago that I decided to take on a zombie antivaccine meme that just keeps rising from the dead over and over and over again. I'm referring to the claim that Andrew Wakefield has been exonerated by legal rulings compensating children for alleged MMR-induced vaccine injury. As I pointed out, this particular claim is a steaming, stinking turd with no science (or even facts) behind it. As I further explained, even if a court rules that vaccines cause autism, that is not scientific evidence that vaccines do, in fact, cause autism. The courts screw up all the time on science, and court rulings cannot be considered a reliable indication of science. The example I like to use is the ruling against Dow Corning back in the 1990s that silicone breast implants were responsible for all sorts of autoimmune diseases, when epidemiological studies showed that they did not. I had hoped to rest after that and have fun either discussing or deconstructing scientific studies (whether I deconstruct them or discuss them depends upon their quality), leaving any further public service demolitions of zombie antivaccine memes for another time.
Then I happened to see Mike Adam's wretched hive of scum and quackery yesterday, NaturalNews.com, and right there on the main page was a post entitled Lead Gardasil developer clears conscience, admits vaccine is useless and deadly, and I knew my work wasn't done. I had seen the article that "inspired" this particular antivaccine zombie meme several times before leading up to this. Like the previous one, it had appeared on Facebook multiple times. I hadn't had to unfriend anyone because of it, but I had seen it. It had appeared an several antivaccine and "alternative health websites" basically verbatim (for instance, here, here, and here). The article had been starting to annoy me almost as much as the "Wakefield wuz right 'cause the courts said so" meme. And now it's showing up on one of the two biggest, baddest quack websites on the entire Internet, NaturalNews.com. It's like waving a cape in front of a bull or sending up the Bat Signal to summon Batman.
So what are the basic claims? Well, this particular meme follows a pattern in which Diane Harper, one of the investigators on the clinical studies for Gardasil has had some sort of attack of conscience and now wants to "come clean" about the vaccine:
Dr. Diane Harper was the lead researcher in the development of the human papilloma virus vaccines, Gardasil and Cervarix. She is the latest to come forward and question the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines. She made the surprising announcement at the 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination, which took place in Reston, Virginia on Oct. 2nd through 4th, 2009. Her speech was supposed to promote the Gardasil and Cervarix vaccines, but she instead turned on her corporate bosses in a very public way. When questioned about the presentation, audience members remarked that they came away feeling that the vaccines should not be used.
What's not mentioned is that this particular article is that the 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination was a conference held by one of the oldest and most established antivaccine groups, the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC). That's the group founded by Barbara Loe Fisher, the grande dame of the antivaccine movement, the woman who was antivaccine before it was fashionable to be antivaccine. Without Barbara Loe Fisher, there might not be J.B. Handley, Mark Blaxill, Dan Olmsted, Jenny McCarthy, or even Jake Crosby. I do not mean that as a complement. The NVIC is known for deceptive antivaccine advertising campaigns (is there any other kind?), a "memorial" web page for "victims" of vaccines called (appropriately enough) the International Memorial for Vaccine Victims, and, of course, holding antivaccine conferences like the one at which Diane Harper appeared. It was a conference that was chock full of antivaccine speakers and a whole lot of "autism biomed" quackery, up to and including at least two talks on homeopathy to treat autism. It doesn't get quackier than that.
And it was four years ago, which reminds me that this story, with similar or the same wording, has popped up periodically ever since 2009. Indeed, a chiropractor cited the very same article in 2011 in the comments of this post, quoting an article with exactly the wording of the article being promoted by NaturalNews.com.
Knowing what the conference was about (hint: it wasn't science) also allows me to put the lie to the claim in these stories that Harper was there to "promote Gardasil." If that's what she was there for, then she was really, really in the wrong place. I can't imagine a much worse place for a pro-Gardasil researcher to appear. Maybe at a meeting of SaneVax members or members of the (Not-So) Thinking Moms' Revolution. Of course, Harper wouldn't be the first researcher to have unwittingly accepted a speaking invitation to a questionable or even crank conference without realizing what they were agreeing to. For instance, Tom Jefferson of the Cochrane Group accepted an invitation to the same conference until he realized that he would be receiving an award along with Andrew Wakefield who would be getting the NVIC’s Humanitarian Award. I must admit that, even four years later, I can't figure out why Harper agreed to speak at this conference and have parts of her talk appear in the antivaccine propaganda movie The Greater Good.
Around the same time, as Ethan Huff of NaturalNews.com reports, Harper was quoted as saying things that sound anti-Gardasil. One that he cites comes from CBS News. What is not mentioned is that this article is by Sharyl Attkisson, an execrably credulous reporter for CBS who is antivaccine to the core and an admirer of Andrew Wakefield. She's even been caught exchanging information with bloggers for the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism. But what did Harper actually say? In the article, she is portrayed as claiming that the vaccine is as deadly as cervical cancer. What she actually said was somewhat more nuanced than that, and it sounds to me as though she was selectively quoted. For one thing, a lot of what she said was quoted as being about Cervarix, which is the HPV vaccine sold in Europe, as compared to Gardasil, which is the HPV vaccine sold in the United States by Merck. Here's what she's quoted as saying in the article floating around the Internet:
Dr. Harper explained in her presentation that the cervical cancer risk in the U.S. is already extremely low, and that vaccinations are unlikely to have any effect upon the rate of cervical cancer in the United States. In fact, 70% of all H.P.V. infections resolve themselves without treatment in a year, and the number rises to well over 90% in two years. Harper also mentioned the safety angle. All trials of the vaccines were done on children aged 15 and above, despite them currently being marketed for 9-year-olds.
All of which is true but irrelevant. An infection doesn't have to result in cervical cancer 100% of the time to make it worth vaccinating against. Even if the infection results in cancer only 1% of the time or less it could well be worth vaccinating against if the vaccine is safe, and, contrary to the claims by antivaccinationists, the HPV vaccine is very, very safe indeed, with the most serious adverse reactions generally being syncope and skin reactions. The deaths and thousands of adverse reactions reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database have never been causally linked to the HPV vaccine. VAERS, as I've pointed out many times, engages in minimal examination of individual reports, and anyone can submit them. It can also be (and has been) used for "dumpster diving" to try to find correlations that don't hold up to scrutiny. Lawyers have used vaccine litigation to distort the VAERS database. That's why VAERS is pretty useless for determining causality from correlation. It wasn't designed for that. It was designed as an early warning system with high sensitivity but very low specificity to pick up early warning signs of potential adverse events.
As for the article from 2009 by Sharyl Attkisson, the key claim cited by the zombie meme article and repeated by Huff at NaturalNews.com is this:
"The rate of serious adverse events (from Gardasil) is on par with the death rate of cervical cancer," admitted Dr. Harper at that time, refuting a pro-Gardasil piece published by Slate. "Gardasil has been associated with at least as many serious adverse events as there are deaths from cervical cancer developing each year."
The interesting thing about this quote is that in an interview with Ben Goldacre Harper denied saying that the HPV vaccine is deadlier than cancer:
So I contacted Professor Harper. For avoidance of doubt, so that there can be no question of me misrepresenting her views, unlike the Express, I will explain Professor Harper’s position on this issue in her own words. They are unambiguous.
“I did not say that Cervarix was as deadly as cervical cancer. I did not say that Cervarix could be riskier or more deadly than cervical cancer. I did not say that Cervarix was controversial, I stated that Cervarix is not a ‘controversial drug’. I did not ‘hit out’ – I was contacted by the press for facts. And this was not an exclusive interview.”
Professor Harper did not “develop Cervarix”, as the Sunday Express said, but she did work on some important trials of Gardasil, and also Cervarix. “Gardasil is not a ‘sister vaccine’ as the Express said, it is a different compound. I do not know of the side effects of Cervarix as it is not available in the US.” Furthermore she did not say that Cervarix was being over marketed. “I did say that Merck was egregiously overmarketing Gardasil in the US- but Gardasil and Cervarix are not the same vaccines.”
It is interesting how this UK article sounds so much like the Attkisson hit piece against Gardasil, down to the same sort of rhetoric. Which is how I understood her misgivings about Gardasil as being: Not that Gardasil is ineffective, not that it's dangerous, but that its benefits might be oversold, which is not an unreasonable concern. These accounts also almost uniformly list Harper as the "lead researcher" on Gardasil. I've described why Harper was in reality not what that title is clearly meant to imply, namely the main researcher who developed Gardasil, but I think Skeptical Raptor did an even better job than I did. Basically, Harper was principal investigator for some of the clinical trials for Gardasil and helped design them. She did not design the vaccine. She had much less to do with the development of Cervarix, and she does appear to be more enthusiastic for Cervarix than for Gardasil because Cervarix has crossreactivity with more cancer-causing HPV types. In any case, in 2011, Harper was quoted as saying:
I remain a vaccine supporter; and am grateful that GSK and merck have developed the vaccines.
Her other concerns were that unless Gardasil provides more than 15 years worth of protection against HPV it would only shift the age of diagnosis later and might not provide lifelong protection. In any case, my feeling is that Harper's views have evolved. She became disillusioned with Gardasil but looks upon next generation HPV vaccines as potentially much more promising. She also feared that advertising was leading women to believe that if they are vaccinated with Gardasil they no longer require Pap smears. Finally, in the US, where Pap smear screening keeps the incidence of invasive cervical cancer low, she was concerned that the vaccine might provide marginal benefit in women who are very punctilious about their screening, although she never disputed that it would still protect against the reproductive consequences of HPV infection. It should be pointed out that her calculations to back up this assertion are not universally accepted and have been criticized.
The truly amusing thing about the NaturalNews.com article is the paranoia behind it. As quoted above, in her interview four years ago with Ben Goldacre Harper disavowed the way her statements about Gardasil and HPV vaccines were being characterized by the press and antivaccine groups. Of course, in a way she had no one to blame but herself. She still hasn't apologized for speaking at an a wretched hive of scum and quackery of an antivaccine meeting quackfest, where her nuanced views on HPV vaccination were guaranteed to be misinterpreted and misrepresented as the "lead investigator" for Gardasil development having decided that HPV vaccination doesn't work and is dangerous. She was either hopelessly naive or high on her newfound fame that she was enjoying four years ago, and I really wish Ben Goldacre had asked her about her appearance speaking at the NVIC. In any case, perhaps realizing her mistake, she spoke to Goldacre. That, of course, was viewed as the only thing it could be viewed as by antivaccine loons, evidence that big pharma must have gotten to her or she is mentally ill:
But not long after clearing her conscience on this important issue so that she could sleep at night, Dr. Harper basically retracted all of her statements, claiming that media reports citing them were made up. What? The vaccine industry or some other power apparently got to Dr. Harper and convinced her to change her story -- either that or she is schizophrenic.
Implying that someone you disagree with must have changed her mind because she was paid or threatened or because she is mentally ill. Stay classy, Ethan. Stay classy. It's nice to see that the people who work for Mike Adams are just as classy as he is. To take a trip down memory lane, I can't help but point out that in October 2009, Adams himself first made this charge:
Now, I can't prove that Merck intimidated Dr. Harper into changing her story, but based on public court documents, this is a type of behavior in which Merck has apparently engaged. And I can't prove that Dr. Harper changed her story, but I wouldn't blame her if she did, especially if she was being threatened with losing her career.
Or maybe Dr. Harper finally realized that some of her previous statements, such as this one speculating about a link between Gardasil vaccination and amyotropic lateral sclerosis (ALS, a.k.a. Lou Gehrig's disease) were irresponsible. Maybe she learned her lesson about being too speculative with the press. Also, it's clear from her more recent writings that she is definitely supportive of Cervarix, less so of Gardasil. Whatever her reasons, Adams' rant is nothing more than a reverse version of the pharma shill gambit in which he claims that pharma intimidation is causing a noted clinical investigator to cower in fear, shut up, and toe the line. Maybe she realized she screwed up big time when she appeared at the NVIC conference. Certainly I'm unaware of her having appeared at any other antivaccine quackfests since 2009. Certainly she never appeared at AutismOne, the premier antivaccine quackfest.
On the other hand, I fear that we skeptics are a bit too quick to dismiss Harper's prior statements as having been misquotes when it is clear that she did, at least for a while, either wittingly or unwittingly give aid and comfort to the antivaccine movement through inflammatory statements about "experimentation" giving Gardasil to 12-year-olds and her speculation that Gardasil might be linked to ALS even though there was no good evidence to support that link. That she's straightened up and flown right since late 2009 is a good thing, but her irresponsible, borderline antivaccine statements in multiple media outlets before that were too numerous to ignore. It's highly unlikely that her statements were all misquotes or taken out of context, and they live on, thanks to websites like that of Mike Adams. It's good that Harper has stopped making them and hasn't appeared at any further antivaccine quackfests like the NVIC conference since 2009, but we shouldn't forget her previous statements. Even though she's disavowed them for the most part, they keep coming back to haunt us as zombie memes that never die just like this one.
I fully expect that this particular meme will continue for the rest of my life, with the exact same article showing up periodically, being Tweeted all over the Internet, and spread all over Facebook, even though the basic article dates back to 2009. Zombie antivaccine Internet memes never die. They always rise again.
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The groups that oppose vaccines latch onto anyone who is a physician (or has an MD, whether they see patients in practice or not) who in any way, shape or form has the slightest appearance of opposing vaccines (hence why Wakefield, Sears and Gordon are all but deities to the antivaccine minions) Even Gordon just had to tell us yesterday that Joel Shapiro, one of his patient's parents on that CBS-LA news video that told the camera that "measles isn't that serious" and that he (Shapiro) wasn't going to vaccinate his own daughter until she was 4 years old was himself an MD (though thankfully not a pediatrician), as though that somehow strengthen's Gordon's ridiculous vaccine claims.
I think this is more like whack-a-meme on some days as to how these things keep popping up. During Pima County's 2008 measles outbreak (21 cases), a local news station interviewed a pediatric infectious disease doctor--who urged parents to get their children vaccinated if they weren't--and then ended the piece interviewing an adult doctor (Jane Orient, MD) who told the camera that she had concerns about the safety of the MMR vaccine and that measles "wasn't that serious". I don't know if this is just clueless or ambitious media folk looking to create a controversy, or whether the tendrils of antivaccine groups have truly confused the thinking of enough people that almost any reporter/journals/newscaster doing an article on vaccines has been brainwashed into thinking they aren't providing "fair balance" if they don't dig up some antivaccine physician for their piece.
On the bright side, the link here to Adam's article (and the link on Adam's own page on Harper and Gardasil) sends you to some article on :Weather radicalization worsening, global food supply at increased risk of regional failures", which is fine by me (perhaps there is a sentient entity on the internet who favors science-based medicine being mischievous).
Harper has backtracked on her previous statements, but I haven't seen her disavowing some of the most stupid ones - including the suggestion that Pap tests alone are adequate against HPV. From a post of mine in another forum responding to an antivaxer flogging the Harper story:
Based on the CBS article Dr. Harper does some questionable juggling of numbers to suggest that the very small risk of serious side effects due to the vaccine outweighs the risk of death from cervical cancer. Dr. Harper should know better than to only cite death as an endpoint from HPV infection. The HPV virus causes up to a million new cases of cervical dysplasia each year in the U.S. and in one recent year over 12,300 cases of cervical cancer. Many of those dysplasia cases and all cases of cancer require unpleasant and costly medical and/or surgical interventions that can carry a risk of death and loss of fertility. The number of cases of death and serious disease convincingly linked to HPV vaccines is zero.
Note also that Harper makes the mistake of assuming that expanded Pap testing is enough to prevent cervical cancer. While very useful, Pap tests do not prevent infection. Since we don't know which infections and dysplasias will clear on their own, women must still undergo added tests and invasive procedures to eradicate infections that could result in cancer and death.
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140543977/hpv-vaccine-the-science-behind-…
In the end, Harper's recantations must be upsetting the antivax crowd:
"Having been quoted in a previous story in the Daily Mail as saying that the HPV vaccination programme was a "mass experiment in public health", Evidence Matters made contact with Dr Harper and she made the following comments:
Harper: "I remain a vaccine supporter; and am grateful that GSK and Merck have developed the vaccines."
http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2009/10/04/dangerous-nonsense-in-the-sunday…
Oooh. I'm totally adding those links to the post.
Or the speculation that Gardasil might have been associated with cases of ALS, which is probably the most irresponsible quote I've seen attributed to her.
OMG people, you have to see this - the latest anti-vax propaganda being posted:
https://twitter.com/DrRachie/status/368300621008338945/photo/1
This is crazy!
@Lawrence
That's actually a satirical poster done up as an example of how silly and extreme anti-vax ads can be: http://www.somethingawful.com/photoshop-phriday/antivaccination-ads-mcc…
Yeah, it's satire. I'm surprised Dr. Rachie fell for it.
If you didn't know where it came from, how could you possibly know that poster was a parody?
I find it completely convincing as an example of the sort of fear mongering antivaxxers engage in.
It says where it came from in the photo itself: somethingawful.com.
Enough diversion; let's get back to the use, misuse, and abuse of Dr. Harper by the antivaccine movement.
Damn Orac - thanks for pointing that out. I'll have a word with the wife before she sends that to anyone else.......
As to Harper, medical professionals in general should be extremely cautious with whom they socialize, because the anti-vax crew will use any and all quotes to try to advance their agenda.
For me Harper will always be the person who refuses to issue a public statement simply stating "I was wrong". All the years that have elapsed since those silly statements, and she still refuses to make that statement, in spite of her awareness of the use of those statements.
Just another Jay Gordon, who will sometimes admit "he was mistaken" on RI, but cannot issue a public statement; totally dishonest.
Well, apparently Ethan was in quite a bit of a huff yesterday as he also penned the following:
"Thousands of teenage girls given birth control jabs at school, family planning clinics without parental consent or knowledge"...
girls as young as 13 were "secretly injected with birth control vaccines" throughout the UK: school nurses giving about 900 vaccines and clinics about 7400 but most likely these numbers are low because " schools and clinics either do not record the full number of shots they administer, or they refuse to release these figures citing confidentiality laws".
This will obviously "encourage children to have more sex" says he. A similar project is coming to NY next.
Wouldn't you know it: slaggy, slutty places like the UK and NY *would* want to innoculate concupiscent attitudes so that the girls would fit in socially! ( sarcasm)
-btw- I used to counsel teenage girls and they didn't need anyone to "give them ideas" about sex.
Administering HPV vaccines is like giving teens tetanus booster vaccines...they will immediately find a cow pasture and look for a dirty nail to test the vaccine's effectiveness.
What is this world coming to!!! Providing birth control to teens and now interfering with G-d's retribution for being a slut!!!
"Just another Jay Gordon, who will sometimes admit “he was mistaken” on RI, but cannot issue a public statement; totally dishonest."
You put me in the same category with Diane Harper? One of the most intelligent and courageous vaccine researchers in the world??!!
I will take you off probation soon, lilady. And then we'll meet for lunch and discuss this civilly away from the crowd.
By the way, I am preparing a public statement, "milady."
Jay
Dr. Gordon, how can you bring yourself to administer vaccines to small children just because their parents insist, when your extensive clinical experience tells you that vaccines can cause instant autism and their minimal benefits are vastly outweighed by their risks? Would you inject bleach into small children just because their parents insisted?
"Intelligent and courageous" is not synonymous with "repeatedly says dumb things and has to backtrack, just like me".
@LW
Why not? He's already admitted that he won't call out extremists promoting untenable positions because he doesn't want to offend them.
Sorry, minor correction. Dr. Gordon won't name the anti-vaccine extremists who aren't worth listening to because he doesn't want to offend them. It's not even to the level of refuting their nonsense, which would certainly be a step too far for the good Dr. Jay.
Narcissists can bring themselves to do anything that boosts their ego.
@LW How can you embarrass yourself by intentionally misstating everything I've said and do? You know I give vaccines every day. I don't think they're as safe as they should be. I know that the current vaccine schedule is expedient, very profitable and not science based. Grow up.
@Todd W I don't want to start a pissing match with antivax people. I'm just not like you in that regard.
@Chris Hickle "Narcissists can bring themselves to do anything that boosts their ego."
I couldn't have said that one bit better myself.
But people at RI seem to love you anyway!
(Sorry for the "I know know what you are but what am I" silliness. I'm the one who needs to grow up, LW!!)
"Harper: “I remain a vaccine supporter; and am grateful that GSK and Merck have developed the vaccines.”"
I've seen more convincing "confessions" in POW and kidnaping movies.
Yup. Another zombie meme.
In my not so humble opinion, I think the anti-vaxxers constantly run out of any real data, so they have to recycle there vaccine "gotcha's".
Any one going to give me the over/under when we should start seeing blogs about how vaccinations cause rhesus monkeys to get autism?
And if one of you post a link that someone did that in the last month, just shoot me and put me out of my misery.
And the Asymptotal Godwin Award goes to... Dr. Jay Gordon for this audacious comparison of SBM to Nazism without actually mentioning Nazis:
In all fairness, "POW and kidnapping movies" need not refer to Nazis at all. It could be movies about Korea or Viet Nam or Afghanistan, or Japan during World War II.
And so Jay Gordon channels Mike Adams. I hope he's proud of sounding just like the second biggest quack on the Internet. (The first biggest quack is Joe Mercola, although it is true that the two of them appear to be duking it out for the title of The One Quack To Rule Them All.)
Agree 100%, and I have a reputation for being sensitive for Godwins. The idea that Dr. Jay was pulling a Nazi analogy didn't even occur to me.
See here where Dr. Gordon, defending a quote from him on Penn & Teller that "children should not be vaccinated", asserts:
Of course, no one believed that the beginning of the sentence is what he claimed, but even if it were, he still asserted that he didn't say no children should be vaccinated at all (except reluctantly when parents insist), but children under one year shouldn't be vaccinated. and besides that, anyone who relies on the work of researchers around the world instead of Dr. Gordon's unrecorded clinical experience is a flat liar.
Dr. Jay, we understand you believe the current vaccine schedule needs to be revised --you stated this explicitly in the "Another zombie antivaccine meme' thread.
What I still don't understand is why you belevie this. In teh interest of clearing this up I'll repeat the question i asked you in that thread.
From what evidence does your recommendation we revise the childhood immunization schedule derive from? Be specific.
.
Yes, I would like to see Dr. Jay answer this question as well and add a request for the peer-reviewed scientific literature that leads him to conclude that vaccines cause autism.
@ Orac:
re " the biggest quack on the internet"-
just the other day, Mercola logged in 526K on facebook while Mikey had a paltry 392K IIRC.
But I imagine that number is not the only factor we should consider- Mike writes like a full-tilt loon, that must count for something.
Quoth Dr. Gordon:
Note that he doesn't vaccinate against rubella, which even I, a non-doctor, know to be dangerous in pregnancy. I haven't found it yet, but I once badgered him into acknowledgingnthat he doesn't vaccinate anybody against rubella.
@LW - jeez, not against Rubella? The same disease that resulted in the death and disfigurement of tens of thousands of babies in the 1960's major outbreaks?
Holey-Moley Dr. Jay, are you serious?
@Lawrence,
Yes, he's serious:
He emphasized "none", by the way, just in case there was any question in our minds.
To address LW first: I vaccinate none of my patients against rubella unless they have very unusual travel plans. Rubella no longer poses a threat to American women and children.
Does he even realize that we live in a global world and people from countries with rubella travel to the US? Heck, that was the reason there is measles up in Ventura County-an international traveler brought it there. And of course, Dr. Bob's unvaccinated patient that caused the 2008 southern California measles outbreak went over to Switzerland and got measles there.
Rhetorically I must ask: How the f*&!k did either of these dipsticks get a medical diploma?
@Chris - I can't believe (well, I do believe it, but I am astonished) that a medical professional would be so "care-free" when it comes to something like Rubella that is extremely dangerous to women and children....and that is easily transmittable in today's connected world.
Dr. Jay - you do have some fairly significant explaining to do....not to mention answer the damn question as to what evidence has compelled you to go "off the reservation."
Even if he has reason to believe that the MMR causes autism -- heck, even if, contrary to all competent research, the MMR really did cause autism -- what excuse would there be for not vaccinating against rubella at least "as a child approaches ten years"? Does he think ten-year-olds are going to suddenly develop autism?
Are all of you aware that the only way he can pull this off is to not vaccinate with MMR at all either? The triple jab is the only way to administer rubella in the U.S.
And again I suggest we make it as easy as possible for Dr. Jay to respond, by simply asking him to identify what in his opinion is the single most compelling piece of scientific evidence supporting the existence of a causal link between routine immunization and the development of autism spectrum disorders.
Just one solid piece of credible scientific evidence--that's all I'm asking for (yet somehow no one ever seems able to find it).
@Science Mom, I'm aware. That's why I wonder what conceivable excuse he has for denying the MMR (and therefore the only available protection against rubella) to children at least ten years old.
@Krebiozen "And the Asymptotal Godwin Award goes to . . ."
And that, ladies and gentleman, is why I come here. A concept that clever--even though you meant to say "asymptotic"--is worth the price of admission.
But, if Orac's Godwin Radar wasn't tickled, it doesn't count as a Godwin!
And, by the way, LW and others, as much as I dislike the MMR--a triple live virus vaccine taken that casually?!I--I willingly give it over age three years or so after a long informed consent discussion.
@Hickie Calm down, doctor. Join the AAP and change things from within. Why would they listen to someone too cheap to pay his dues? Be honest, Dr. H.
I would be enthralled to see an explanation squaring the statement above with
That Penn & Teller post is a treasure trove that I had forgotten about. For instance, it features Dr. Gordon explaining how willingly he gives the MMR.
Chris asked (comment #235),
Dr. Gordon replies,
Yep, willingly. Once or twice a year, even.
Dr. Jay @ # 13
"Just another Jay Gordon, who will sometimes admit “he was mistaken” on RI, but cannot issue a public statement; totally dishonest."
and...
"You put me in the same category with Diane Harper? One of the most intelligent and courageous vaccine researchers in the world??!!"
No Jay, you're in a "category" all by yourself. Diane Harper was not part of the HPV vaccine development team (tsk, tsk, you should have read Orac's post); she was part of the team that tested the vaccine in field trials. And, Harper only messed up with her statements about the HPV vaccine; you, OTH, have made, and continue to make, ridiculous...not based in science...statements about every infant, childhood and adolescent vaccine that is recommended by the WHO, the CDC and the AAP.
"I will take you off probation soon, lilady. And then we’ll meet for lunch and discuss this civilly away from the crowd."
What hubris! You claim you put me "on probation" on Orac's blog? You're just p!ssed off that I have been linking to your statements on your websites about vaccine, for the past two years. Remember Jay..."Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend". Remember Jay...I called you out on your lies a few months ago, when you claimed you were vaccinating immune suppressed kids with varicella vaccine, under a "compassionate use protocol" during the mid 1970s through the 1980s'? Remember Jay...I found your "Links" section which linked to whale.to for information on each of the childhood vaccines? Really Jay, you've got your colossal nerve to put me "on probation" on Orac's blog, and I consider it a badge of honor that you think I am uncivil and threatening.
"By the way, I am preparing a public statement, “milady.”
I'll be waiting for that public statement and I'll convince Orac to devote an entire post to your public statement, "m'lord".
@Hickie Calm down, doctor. Join the AAP and change things from within. Why would they listen to someone too cheap to pay his dues? Be honest, Dr. H.
Some more pediatricians calling you out Dr. Gordon? You know whom to blame.
"@Chris Actually, there have been children in my office who received the MMR. Their special circumstances or their parents very strong wishes easily superseded my wish to withhold the shot. I’d guess this happens once or twice/year."
and
"And, by the way, LW and others, as much as I dislike the MMR–a triple live virus vaccine taken that casually?!I–I willingly give it over age three years or so after a long informed consent discussion."
You have no business being a pediatrician.
NONE.
So which is it Jay? You don't give rubella ever or you give MMR oh so reluctantly to parents whose instincts have obviously failed them? Your statements are rather inconsistent.
I'll just note the irony of this particular bit of pearl-clutching coming from Jay mere days after he said to Orac, in effect, 'You have explained at length why you are unhappy that the cases of two children compensated by the VICP for table injuries are now being falsely represented to the world as compensation for autism - but I know what you really mean is "No compensation for vaccine injuries ever, no matter what the circumstances!"' So Jay is at the very least asserting his own right to misstate others' views... wonder why he's clutching his pearls at the thought that someone might misinterpret his own words and actions.*
* Of course, as we saw just a month ago in the thread where Jay both claimed his attempt to "out" elburto was justified by her "stalking" of him and then falsely told her "I never said you were stalking me; you made that up," what Jay means by "misstating everything I've said and do" might well be "remembering very accurately what I've said and done at a time when that's inconvenient for me."
I don't know about any of you, but I don't take a "casual" approach to vaccines. My approach has, is, and will always be one based on reality. I'm not cavalier about it. I'm not proud. I'm not even happy that we have to vaccinate. If I had it my way, we would have erradicated all vaccine-preventable diseases by now.
This whole business of accusing someone who uses evidence, data, and, you know, reality to prevent diseases (instead of magic like homeopaths and faith healers), it's all getting very boring. Time and time again, people like Dr. Jay and "Sid Offit" and JB Handley, and others launch accusations that we're in a "cult" or that we "worship" vaccines. They say that we're obsessed or won't listen to reason. Personally, I worship intangibles, untestables.
With vaccines (and anything based on science), I look at the evidence and say, "Hey, it effin' works." Just like when I look at the sky and see it blue or put a liter of water at sea level and see that it weighs one kilo, boils at 212ºF and freezes at 0ºC.
In other words, vaccines work, don't cause autism, and will always save more lives than you can possibly imagine. Get over it.
@Jay Gordon
No, I don't think that's it, Jay. Rather, I don't think that there actually is anyone on the anti-vaccine side that you really think is not worth listening to. That or you lack the conviction to actually put things right. You said, quite clearly, you'd rather not offend them than to even state the names of those you think aren't worth listening to. How is that serving anyone that respects (for some strange reason) your opinion?
Also, as Dr. Gorski mentioned on that thread over at SBM, here's a recent quote from Jay about the MMR:
And remember folks. The diseases we vaccinate against aren't a threat to kids in the U.S. I mean, the CDC said they were eradicated. They can't even travel in; it's only if you travel out of the U.S. that there's a risk. And those outbreaks you hear about in areas of low vaccination rates in the U.S.? Well, for Jay, that's just "statistical porn". Remember saying that Jay?
BTW, Jay, I find your tone in this thread very uncivil. Rough week?
Dr. Jay, did you know that a pregnant woman getting rubella actually increases the child's chances of getting autism?
Dr. Jay is aware of the thousands of cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome that were reported in the United States before a rubella vaccine was developed and licensed.
Apparently Dr. Jay forgot his medical school education, because he seems blissfully unaware that CRS is still being reported in the United States. Three cases were reported during 2012, but then the mothers of the babies born afflicted with CRS, were not the type of women that Jay's young patients or their pregnant mommies would ever encounter in real life.
Read here the mothers' stories of no recollection of a serious illness during their pregnancies That's the nature of the disease...inapparent or mild for pregnant women...but devastating for the fetus she is carrying.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6212a3.htm
Good link, lilady, especially the last paragraph:
As long as rubella remains endemic in any area of the world, imported CRS will continue to be a public health concern in the United States. Residents or foreign visitors entering the United States from rubella-endemic areas can introduce the virus. In addition, infants born with CRS can shed infectious virus for several months; therefore, care must be taken to avoid contact with others who are susceptible to rubella (e.g., unvaccinated infants in day-care settings) (7). Although levels of vaccination with rubella-containing vaccine are high in the United States, a small proportion of persons are not vaccinated for medical or personal reasons (8). Those who are not vaccinated against rubella virus can become infected if exposed. If a pregnant woman is infected with rubella virus, the fetus also can become infected. Fetal infection with rubella virus, especially early during pregnancy, often leads to CRS. The risk for CRS in the unborn child of a mother with rubella infection might be as high as 90% for infections occurring through week 10 of pregnancy (9). Clusters of unvaccinated persons are at high risk for an outbreak, as in the Netherlands and Canada in 2009 (10). Health-care providers and public health workers should remain vigilant for imported cases of CRS.
Gordon (and Sears) poo poo infections like rubella and polio because in their insular, celebrity, cash-kissing world, those diseases are not in their cosmopolitan thinking-mommy upper class neighborhoods--they're in those far away places like Nigeria, Sudan and Tanzania. But people from there come here and I'm sure some of their families travel over there. All these diseases are just a plane flight away (http://shotofprevention.com/2011/05/13/diseases-are-often-just-a-plane-…), and if vaccine rates keep dropping in the US, we won't even need the plane rides.
Test Post.
Something weird just happened to my computer. It froze and I had to turn it off and restart it again...twice. Then Microsoft had to do a 3-stage Disk check (about 35 minutes...mainly eliminating phishing). So I finally get back on to RI where all of Orac's posts are up...but the "Recent Insolence Returned" comments were old...real old...dating back to the beginning of August.
I wanted to post at Dr. Chris, but I had to type in my 'nym and type in my email address...hence the "Test Post" above. After the "Test Post" went through I hit my RI Bookmark and now the RI page is functioning.
@ Dr. Chris: You make a very valid point about deliberately unvaccinated kids (from Dr. Jay's type of boutique practice), traveling to areas of the world where Rubella may be endemic. I wonder how parents in his practice would feel if their child contracted rubella during such a trip, and infected a non-immunized woman in her early stages of pregnancy?
@Lilady
Honestly, I don't think they'd care. I suspect most of Dr Jay's parents are the self-absorbed type (birds of a feather, and all that) who wouldn't see the problem with their special snowflake gifting others with 'natural immunity'.
@lilady:
[citation needed]
No, really, he's so blasé about rubella that I really do wonder if he knows about those cases.
No, really, he’s so blasé about rubella that I really do wonder if he knows about those cases.
How can a busy, cutting edge guy like Goron have time to worry about rubella when he's found his true calling in preventing autism through healthy sperm initiatives?
@ AoA, Dan is bashing Emily Willingham and abusing the sacred word of the sainted Bob.
-btw- The Forbes pieces' subtly self-scrolling comments evade my attempts to click on pages 2 or above. Who designed that?
@lilady:
Isn't Microsoft lovely?
However it's made money for my family so I can't scoff too much. AND I use it.
Jay,
I didn't mean to say 'asymptotic', I know 'asymptotal' is a made-up word; it was a joke that I knew my fellow science-literate commenters here would understand. Maybe I should point out that there is no Asymptotal Godwin Award, that was a joke too.
For some reason I'm reminded of Bill Hicks describing his experience sitting in a diner reading a book over a cup of coffee in some FSM-forsaken part of the US. One one of the locals looked at him and said to his companions, "Looks like we got ourselves a reader."
Jay, I don't suppose you care, but personally I find your continual passive-aggressive nastiness, your faux outrage at the bile it sometimes provokes, your lectures about civilized discourse and your appallingly cavalier attitude towards your patients' health repugnant. I think it betrays something unpleasant about your personality. That's not a joke, it's just my opinion.
@ Chris Hickey:
Oooh, that was mean: you fit right in amongst the RI minions.
-btw- where's Narad?
We know where Alain is.
@ Krebiozen:
YOU will never be invited for lunch by Dr Jay; neither will I nor will Chris H.
That's a shame because we're fun!
I vaccinate none of my patients against rubella unless they have very unusual travel plans
The mumps outbreak in Livingston County, Illinois, two years ago was caused by someone returning from a mission trip to Haiti. IDPH is currently monitoring two measles cases who brought it back from Poland.
But that would never happen in California, where people don't routinely travel out of state or out of country, would it...
July 20, 2013
The news articles didn't say where in Ventura County the tourists traveled, but that's only about 35 miles north of Dr. Jay's office.
Wait, is this "I still have articles praising homeopathy on my site" Dr. Jay?
I believe Dan Olmsted's snide remarks about Emily Willingham is the third (or fourth) hit piece that they have done on Emily's blog at Forbes.
Stone has also viciously attack Dorit Reese, who is a professor of law and who rebutted Mary Holland and her EBCALA study on the Harvard Law Review. Chris and I and several others managed to get comments posted at Holland and at Reiss. Unfortunately, the comments sections on those two articles was shut down...because of vile comments being posted (my assumption is those comments came from AoA trolls).
Denice, If you want to see the stream of comments on Emily's blog, you have to go to the first comment and click on "Expand All Comments". Linda Tock and I have been busy for the past 3 days commenting and there are now 31 pages of comments. I was up commenting until 4 AM this morning commenting.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-do…
too many vaccines to children too early in life.
Too early for *what*? Now that Dr Jay has resiled from blaming vaccines for autism (opting for the "environmental toxins / unhealthy sperm / impurity of essence" theory), what are the ill-effects of vaccinations for justifying his patients' free-floating anxieties about them?
Just a thought: How many boutique practices take care of over 4000 children?
Speak about what you know. Thanks.
@LW "squaring" People who read, listen and think change their minds. Those with closed minds will never understand why I do things differently than I did a year or two or ten ago.
@lilady I repeat, narrow-minded inflexible people can't understand those of us who can change. Pity.
@DrHickie !!!!!
@Science Mom I give many more MMR vaccines than I used to. I worry about the timing of this vaccine and theoretical concerns about live virus vaccines but I also understand the benefits of immunity to rubella for women of child-bearing age. My statements are inconsistent because I have changed some of my ideas and practices and will continue to do so. Part of that comes from being here, by the way.
@Antaeus You're usually better than this. That's all. Much better, more logical and more convincing.
@Ren I don't think you're in a cult or a vaccine worshipper. You're a responsible, experienced, highly-educated expert. We disagree at times but, as you well know, I respect your opinions and arguments. Please, Ren, don't join the worst of the crowd here.
@Todd W Yes, very rough week. Thank you for noticing and asking. There are lots of anti-vax writers not worth reading. I don't read them. I just don't need them and you thoroughly pissed off at me for calling them out. What on earth would be the point of that?? And, yes, a lot of the changes I've made are a result of my contemplating the amount of travel my patients do. I give more vaccines as a result of that.
@Khani Yes, thanks.
@lilady You're reaching new lows. You cite cases in three mothers from Tanzania, Sudan and Nigeria. You are so angry at me that it's really clouding your judgment to contribute to this conversation. That probation is not lifted.
@Dr.Hickie I'm going to talk with you doc to doc for a minute. Do you really believe I make more money by selling fewer vaccines? Your math is bad. And, yes, Africa is a long way from here.
And the "plane ride away" cliche' has to merit a made-up piece of opprobrium like Godwin does. OK?
And please don't say poo poo here.
@lilady Someone traveling to Africa has different risk factors. Not hard to figure out.
@Darwy Post about what you know. You know nothing about the 4000 children for whom my office cares. Nothing at all.
@LW It is my job to know about vaccination and outbreaks worldwide.
@Krebiozen You're entitled to your opinion. Actually, I'm a very nice guy. I really thought your use of the concept of Godwin combined with "asymptote" was just great.
@Denice Where's Alain? I would have lunch with you.
@Shay Occurrences like that, conversations with Ren and others and just plain maturity have changed my thoughts and practices.
Obviously Dr. Gordon, your "boutique practice" cares for over 4,000 children.
How many pediatricians in California were against the passage of California Assembly Bill 2109, introduced in the Assembly by Dr. Richard Pan, a pediatrician, that would require a parent to consult a health care provider for reliable information about childhood vaccines, before they "opt out" of vaccines, with a "Personal Belief Exemption"?
How many pediatricians in California debated Dr. Pan during a radio program? I heard that broadcast when you had it on your website. IMHO, Dr. Pan made mincemeat out of your arguments to defeat AB 2109.
Do you deny, that you had a statement on your website, that you had consulted your attorney to get advice on avoiding these consultations with the parents who take their kids to your boutique practice?
Are you still charging parents at the time of their appointments, payment in full for your services...thus making them to submit bills for reimbursement?
Weeks ago, I commented directly at you, that you are listed as a "vaccine friendly" pediatrician on Dr. Bob Sears website; I still see your name and your contact details on Sears' website:
http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/find-vaccine-friendly-doctor-…
"Please Note! The doctors listed here want to do their best to provide you with vaccine advice and alternative schedules. In order to best serve you, please do NOT call their offices and use their staff's valuable time and energy asking numerous questions over the phone. This takes them away from caring for patients in the office and makes it more difficult for them to provide care for YOU when you are in their office. Some doctors have asked that I remove them from this listing because they have been inundated with phone calls from parents who want to spend a long time on the phone seeking advice and asking numerous questions over the phone instead of simply waiting for their appointment. I know that you all are looking for a doctor to serve you, but this type of situation actually does a disservice to this whole endeavor. So, I ask that you PLEASE simply call the doctor near you, perhaps ask one or two simple questions about why you want an appointment, and then make an appointment and save all your vaccine questions for your face-to-face appointment. Please respect the doctor's staff's time and patients by following these guidelines so the Vaccine Friendly Doctor's List can continue to grow.
Thanks!
Dr. Bob"
Aren't you proud that you have your own entry on this blog? Here, for posterity are your activities and your comments throughout the years about vaccines:
http://www.skepdic.com/gordonjay.html
Am I still "on probation" on Orac's blog, Dr. Jay? Or, are you going to outright ban me from posting on Respectful Insolence?
Jay,
I'm quite sure you are an extremely charming, charismatic individual, with a bedside manner that other physicians can only envy. Otherwise you wouldn't be doing what you do and wouldn't be so successful in the particular medical you have chosen to inhabit.
However, doing a convincing imitation of a nice guy isn't the same as being a nice guy. I don't believe you would bother hanging out here if you weren't aware of that, at some level anyway.
In this case I'll adjust my negative opinion of you down a notch. I thought you were being sarcastic. I have a suspicion you still are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
By the way, I'm beginning to suspect that Greg is your alter ego. Is he?
"particular medical niche you have chosen to inhabit."
Dr Jay said, "Darwy Post about what you know. You know nothing about the 4000 children for whom my office cares. Nothing at all."
Well, I know I prefer quality healthcare over quantity health care....
#67
"Do you really believe I make more money by selling fewer vaccines? Your math is bad."
The only way this would work would be if you were catering to parents who had antivaccine leanings who would otherwise seek care elsewhere. People do indeed believe you do this, so that charge does seem to make sense.
"Someone traveling to Africa has different risk factors. Not hard to figure out."
What about the rest of us in America when they come back? Measles virus can last 12 hours on a surface...
Firstly, @Krebiozen There was NO sarcasm there at all. I thought it was great. That's one of the main problems I have here: I wonder why people as smart as the posters here keep up the same drumbeat and put all who question any aspect of conventional medical care, especially vaccines, in the same small category. Do that if you must, but understand that I loved the image you created of my approaching Godwin. It was unintentional on my part but undoubtedly I deserved your comment.
I could not be successful "imitating" a nice guy for decades. I take care of my patients very well. My neighborhood and my specialty do not lend themselves to whimsical or non-evidenced base medical care. We disagree but do not assume that I don't take great care of kids.
Greg? No, I post here and anywhere under my own name. No pseudonyms or anonymous posting.
@lilady I just read your comments at Forbes. You were unkind to the point of completely unacceptable behavior. Just as one human being interacting with another, your exchanges with the parents of those special needs children deserves reprimand from all who read it. Your heart is filled with hatred for those parents. Why, lilady, why?
@Denice Where’s Alain? I would have lunch with you.
I'm here....been on hiatus due to a ruptured appendix which required surgery (and yes, I have a nice big vertical cut of about 5 inch around the navel 'cause it was too messy in there among other small cuts).
I can't take a plane because of my sutured rectus abdominus (not sure, my anatomy book is off little help) which would rip apart the sutured point on liftoff due to the pressure on the stomach so you both will have to come here if you want to breakfast with me. There's a nice Cora restaurant 5 minutes from here :)
Alain
p.s. maximum weight I can lift with both hand is 10 lbs so that preclude even doing the grocery. Matter of fact, I don't know if I can lift some of my kitchen appliances or the dirty laundry.
Alain, sorry to hear. Heal quickly!
Jay
Jay,
6 weeks off...
Alain
Selective ignoring things you don't like for the win, Jay?
Here, let me try again.
Why are there still articles, written by you, endorsing homeopathy on your site?
And what the hell is going on with the "I'm not elitist, I have 4000 patients" claptrap, Jay? You've found 4000 snowflake children with parents that can afford you, so now you are a man of the people?
Does this make sense to you?
Who do you think you are trying to fool here?
Dr. Jay: You are welcome to post on any of the science blogs I post on.
Your statement about my posts on Emily Willingham's blog are nasty, untruthful and wrong.
"@lilady I just read your comments at Forbes. You were unkind to the point of completely unacceptable behavior. Just as one human being interacting with another, your exchanges with the parents of those special needs children deserves reprimand from all who read it. Your heart is filled with hatred for those parents. Why, lilady, why?"
Shall we look at those parents, Jay?
-CIA (Cynthia) Parker: Who is a known pathological liar, who posts about her child's encephalopathy. She never took her infant to a physician for an evaluation of what she describes as an "encephalitic cry" (colic), and she, refuses to acknowledge the link I have provided to her, multiple times, to the IDSA Pediatric Treatment Guidelines for Encephalitis. She, a lawyer, has libeled me in the past, and libeled me on Willingham's blog, accusing me of being on the payroll to post my comments.
-The lady who lives in Mississippi, who cannot, or will not, get her "story" straight about her child's seizures, following a vaccine. Her child has had continuous EEG tracings several times in a neuro unit, with nary a sign of seizure activity. Her child has had multiple EEG tests, just after "episodes" she reported as "seizures", yet during these post-ictal EEG tracings, her child's EEGs are "normal". Her doctors have repeatedly told her that her child does not have epileptic episodes. She also claims her autistic child attends a school program in Mississippi 2X/weekly and is not fully immunized. She claims the local school board in Mississippi has violated Mississippi State Education by permitting her unimmunized child in school. Her child DOES NOT HAVE A MEDICAL CONTRAINDICATION, because no doctor will provide an excuse for her. She claims she cannot afford the $ 350 filling fee to institute a claim for vaccine damages (autism) in the Vaccine Court...and I informed her that the filing fee is waived for indigent parents.
-prince adam: Accused me of deliberately omitting "Traumatic Brain Injury" related to vaccine-induced autism. I provided him with the medical dictionary definition of TBI, which as you know well know, has nothing to do with vaccines or autism. He also threatened me with "blood revenge". Nice guy.
-Alain Couvier a.k.a. "ASD Researcher", who is a Spammer, who has targeted Willingham and other science bloggers with his walls of words, his quote mining tactics, his off-topic, thread-derailing comments...and who is a troll.
Yeah Jay, I'm a mean-spirited evil bitch who despises parents who have special needs children (self-loathing, perhaps?), who is "on the payroll" of teh ebil *Big Pharma*, who is deserving of CIA Parker's libelous statements and who is deserving of blood revenge.
Unlike you Jay, I have no need to pander to crank bloggers, D.-List celebs and credulous parents. Unlike you Jay, I don't make sh!t up about vaccines and unlike you, I despise parents who refer to their children as "vaccine-damaged", "train wrecks" and afflicted with "iatrogenic autism caused by vaccines.
Dr. Jay,
I can attest that the AoA crew mentioned by lilady are a nasty bunch. I posted a few times at AoA and during an episode where I explained the development of a newborn brain (especially, the reptilian part of the brain), I witnessed a storm going after me forcing me in a corner and the comment thread was shutdown quickly after that.
There's pretty good chance that lilady know well who she has to face off in the comments thread that the dachelbot spam to. As for myself, I have a fireproof suit but I don't wear it that often because it's draining me too much.
Alain
I know that the current vaccine schedule is expedient, very profitable and not science based.'
This, and the other comments you've made, show that you are able to lie with the ease of those who are well practiced. I would ask how you live with yourself, but I'm assuming your money takes the place of your conscience.
Jay: " I wonder why people as smart as the posters here keep up the same drumbeat and put all who question any aspect of conventional medical care"
My, what a tiresome trope.
It is perfectly acceptable to question an aspect of "conventional" medical care (Numerous articles at RI have done this, and it's the process by which "conventional" medical care evolves in response to new and better evidence). People who continually spout drivel and refuse to consider overwhelming evidence refuting their position, are not Brave Mavericks Challenging The Conventional Paradigm, they're idiots who should not be surprised that they generate a negative response.
And if the "drumbeat" fills you with such ennui, Jay, why not find something else to do? A guy who spends so much time on a single office visit with parents who have to doggedly convince him of the need for an MMR shot, should take a break now and then. :)
@ dean & Dangerous Bacon: Just watch your backs, guys. Jay is apt to take the bull by the balls and put you on "double secret probation".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hostgKc7qV4
Well, what do you know, I get invited to lunch ( and then breakfast!)
Perhaps RI has had an effect on Dr Jay.
If Jay was a Newfie would he be from Dildo or from Witless Bay?
@Dr.Hickie I’m going to talk with you doc to doc for a minute. Do you really believe I make more money by selling fewer vaccines? Your math is bad. And, yes, Africa is a long way from here..
Yes, I am sure you do, at least per shot (now if you only give like 3 vaccine injections a year, then sure, I do gross more than you since I spend > $250k on vaccines last year). Since you don't take insurance, you can bill and collect whatever you want from your patients. Since I am contracted with insurance companies for 98-99% of my patients, I can still bill whatever I feel, but the insurance company will pay me whatever they want, which is typically 10% above vaccine cost. So, for example, on a $130 PCV13 vaccine, I get around, on average, $143.00. That's not much (Walmart has a better margin on their merchandise), and you, I am certain, bill more than 10% above your vaccine acquisition costs to your paying out of pocket families. Another trick I'll bet you do is, especially since you are mister anti-combination vaccine, you probably split out as many vaccines as possible into more shots--letting you collect more shot administration fees than I get for doing as many combination vaccines as I can (such as pediarix and kinrix because I don't like making the kid cry any more than is necessary.). You, of course, will claim "safety concerns" for why you split them out, of which there are none. Finally, since you run a non-insurance practice, I will bet you charge a lot more for well checks as well as your run of the mill 99213 level visits than someone who gets for them who is contracted with insurance. O
There is nowhere on this planet that is "a long way from here" anymore. People travel internationally all the time and, for better or worse, US customs doesn't really screen much for incoming infectious diseases. You can't really tell me that LA isn't a great melting pot for international travelers, can you?
The Slate article this last week about why rich parents (esp those in California, how odd...that is where you and Dr. Bob are) aren't vaccinating their kids has me wondering if you and Sears don't have them snowed into thinking their sh!t don't stink--or maybe you play on that to convince them that all those silly diseases like measles and pertussis and polio and invasive hib aren't really that dangerous and couldn't possibly invade their little enclaves or infect their children (which obviously is wrong since Sear's patient went off to Switzerland and came back with measles).
I do hope you remember that you could legally find yourself on an especially long walk off a short pier should one of your non-vaccinated patients ever get really sick from a vaccine preventable disease and the parents of that child decide it was your fault, for your vaccination practices fall so so so far short of the standard of care.
@Chris Hickie
I've been MIA for quite a while... I've never heard this before. Can someone point me to what this is referring to?
@Alain
Hope you get better soon!
In his new book on "preventing autism" (with no real science to back it up), he spends a good chunk of one chapter telling dads-to-be how to have the most awesome super de duper sperm ever--which of course prevents your child from having autism (in Gordon's world). Even better, that chapter and one of the adjacent chapters don't even have references listed at the end of the book, so there's no way for anyone to even check out his claims.
Par for the course for him.
You're just jealous, Chris - because Jay's a a male lactation expert* and you're not.
*for some reason this reminds me of Groucho's line about playing "Somewhere My Love Lies Sleeping" with a male chorus.
Something, something, something...about the biological clock and healthy sperm, I suspect.
@ lilady:
I think that I can help ( although I haven't read the book) but don't those who are concerned with natural health/ a toxin-free lifestyle/ alt med believe that prior to conception, one or BOTH parents should "clean up their lifestyle"- not drink or smoke anything, use rx meds, OTC meds, non-organic foods, avoid radiation, pure water etc?
Some go as far as to preach avoidance of home cleaning products, cosmetics/ shampoos, GMOs..
in order to cleanse and purify their... uh... essence.
In other news:
Cat Jameson of AoA ( and TMR, as Mamacita) filled in for another TM who was asked by a US tv news outlet to comment about the recent study linking ASDs and birth interventions.
She speaks about her experiences @ AoA ( probably soon also at TMR).
Is it just me or does any else wonder WHY TMR was consulted and asked to comment about research?
As if...anyone, anywhere, takes the Thinking Moms seriously when it comes to research.
So Jameson, calls her pal Stagmom and consults with the bot; her most knowledgeable "expert" is a doula "with ten years experience" !!
What dullards they all are, with their assumptions that women and their doctors induce labor for "their convenience" and that every induction involves teh ebil chemicals:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/inducing-labor/PR00117
Altho' it is Faux** News, still she was interviewed by the anchor/ reporter for 5 and 10 pm, Shawn Yancy ( I looked at her wiki)-
and yes, while that metro area is probably a scrumptiously seething pit of liberalism, I'm sure that *some* people must watch it .
- isn't that where Jake resides and at least two minions we know and love as well? Wy weren't THEY asked to comment? ( that's partially a joke - about the former)
** Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they somehow connected to Uncle Rupert?
Thanks guys, now it makes sense*
*or as much sense as it was bound to
According to Jameson, Yancy is an "autism mom".
Jake really isn't a good interviewee...he's all in on "toxicities" in vaccines.
BTW, Casa Wakefield in Austin, is off the market, as of August 12th.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/802-Crystal-Creek-Dr-Austin-TX-78746/…
@Shay Occurrences like that, conversations with Ren and others and just plain maturity have changed my thoughts and practices.
It would appear you don't believe anyone remembers what you post on other threads.
Sorry, Dangerous Bacon, but if Jay wants to help men lactate, well, that's his business.
@Jay Gordon (look! I'm being humble by pointing out that I'm not posting any initials! Give me props for that, folks!)
Well, for one thing, it would be a small step toward improving your credibility with science-minded folks. But the more important thing it would accomplish is that, as I told you a couple times already, it would say something to those lurkers who might otherwise listen to those anti-vaccine extremists. They might think, "Hey, I respect Dr. Jay. And he says these people probably aren't the best ones to listen to. Maybe I'll avoid them or at least be a bit more careful as I read them."
You see, Jay, there's more to all this than just you. That's the problem, I think. You are so self-absorbed that you don't even stop to think about other people's well-being. You're so concerned with how you will be perceived that you would rather stay quiet and let parents get taken in by charlatans and whackos than to take a stand, risk offending someone (Oh, the horror of it all!) and doing the right thing.
That's the difference between you and everyone else in this thread, Jay. We don't give a s*** about the opinions of those who promote dangerous nonsense. We care about the parents and the children that they threaten. Want an example of the damage your buds over at Generation Rescue can do? Take a look at the Minnesota Somali community. How has listening to GR served those children? Oh, wait. I remember your opinion on them. Those kids that were hospitalized due to measles? You said they were just "soft hospitalizations".
Come back when you grow a spine.
Heck, I'd settle for a conscience.
@Denice Walter: Did you know that the Fox station in Austin has uncritically interviewed Polly Tommey for autism stories THREE TIMES this summer?
The issue is this. The anti-vaccination groups have succeeded in duping some reporters into thinking that there is a legitimate controversy over vaccines in the medical establishment, even though there is not.
Because this is not their area of expertise, and because few reporters specialize enough to be extremely knowledgeable in medicine, science, or other complex subjects without perceived "glamor" in them, they can be fooled into thinking there is a real controversy.
At the same time, they are hampered by the way that science works, and the language that sounds the same as ordinary language but means something different: "is not likely," "No correlation was found" rather than "there is no correlation," that sort of thing.
They are also hampered by the fact that real scientists are often poor publicists. They don't call reporters to tell them what they're working on. They don't bother to have a relationship with reporters. In fact, they often don't want to talk to reporters at all, so even if a reporter wants to do science journalism, he or she will have to do a lot of persuading and sweet-talking--for a subject not deemed "sexy" by editors, on top of it, so the reporter will likely also have to sweet-talk and persuade the editor.
How many of you in the sciences have given your local newspaper/site a call or an email?
You can bet the anti-vaxxers are doing this. Why aren't you?
@ Sebastian Jackson:
Really? But then she's supposed to be goodlooking.
@ Todd W.
@ Khani:
I would think that the more we publicise people who disseminate mis-information the better.
Who are they, what are their backgrounds, what do they promote, do they benefit financially or otherwise for their efforts, why are they so motivated, how do they spread the word, with whom are they affiliated, who are most susceptible to their messages
are all legitimate questions and areas of investigation.
Khani et al.,
I want to plug my pals at Voices for Vaccines who have put together a toolkit for writing pro-vaccine, pro-public health Op-Eds for the local paper
http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/wpvfv/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/OpEdt…
@Sebastian: Plus I think one of the Fox 7 anchors, like the Fox 5 anchor who interviewed Cathy Jameson, was an "autism mom." Anyone else know if Tommey is involved in TMR?
@Liz: VforV earned itself the attention of AofA, so you know they must be doing something right: http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/08/voices-for-vaccines-iii-the-opinions…
Aside from a phenomenally irritating habit of varying the details of the name you enter. I now have six killfile entries just for you.
#102 They are, but it's the old David Irving problem, and is all publicity good publicity? No. However, it's a fine line between giving the fringe a platform and exposing them, and it's one many journalists don't see, especially in areas they are not experts in.
A toolkit is fine, but the idea that journalists are going to seek that out isn't very realistic.
The best way to get a reporter to write something you think he or she should write about is still calling, emailing or facebooking him or her one on one.
If you *haven't* done this with your local newspaper, television station or radio station, you need to do this. Don't expect reporters to seek you out for something that a. isn't "sexy," b. is a hard sell to editors and c. will take a lot of time.
Seek them out. Right now there's a perfect excuse as the flu season is approaching and it's a great time to talk about vaccines.
Don't wait. Don't assume someone else will do it. Do it yourself. Even if you're not an authority or a scientist, why not take five minutes and send an email to your local news organization saying "say, flu season is coming up, I'd really like to see an article about the importance of getting vaccinated. Here are some local sources you could use: " and then list them.
@Sebastian Jackson:
I don't think Tommey has been involved with TMR. She's big at the Autism Media Channel. The way Tommey and Wakefield in tandem have attempted to monetize their autism theories is thoroughly reviewed in the article linked below:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/06/what-happened-man-mmr-pa…
And I am proud to call Dorit Reiss a personal friend. I'd call Karen Ernst and Ashley Shelby personal friends too, but we've only met over the internet and the phone.
@ Sebastian Jackson: I don't know for a fact that Tommey is involved with the TMR, but I would venture a guess that all the glitterati from the various groups are incestuously involved with each other.
Khani, evidently you didn't look at the link. The toolkit is for lay folk to help them write op-eds.
@lilady, @Liz: Fox News seems to go to TMR for autism info a lot in any event. Alison MacNeil was on "Fox & Friends" in April and now Jameson is on Fox 5.
I didn't until after I'd posted, no.
An op-ed is fine, but it still won't carry the weight of a news story, so I'd suggest concentrating on those first and write letters/opinion pieces second.
[cut & paste from a reply]
"We, as journalists, are responsible for presenting all sides of an issue, especially in ones as contentious as this."
Fox News seems to go to TMR for autism info a lot in any event.
It's almost as if they want to keep their audience ignorant and inclined towards crankery on every topic.
#112 When both sides aren't conspiracy theorists and far on the fringe, way outside of reason, yes.
Stories about geography don't talk about earth being flat, either.
I think it might be worthwhile for SOME of us to bypass the papers and television entirely because:
the worst drivel is being circulated via the net ;
many vulnerable folk don't read or watch news but come to the intetubes for er... *enlightenment*...
That wot lives by the net will die by the net.
That wot lives by the net will die by the net.
In fact Google advises me that the Retiarius was commonly pitted against a Secutor, and was therefore more likely to die from a sword or dagger wound.
bimler please:
it's hard enough to riff on J-sus being an atheist without simultaneously attempting to recall anachronistic weapon system/ gladiatorial role-playing terminology, in Latin yet.
Jay,
Answer the question; what on Earth are you doing endorsing homeopathy?
You don't think vaccines work but you believe in magic water? You should be struck off.
Diane don't hate it; America don't want it.
Thanks for the link to the toolkit, Liz. I will use it as a check for my next LTE,
and , @Denice #115--I agree. Even during the 2008 measles outbreak here in Tucson, a lot of parents coming in for clinic visits didn't know about the outbreak. The schools had not sent home any notices or put anything up on their web sites about the importance of vaccinating, I guess assuming parents would ready about it in the papers or on the evening news. I'm trying to think of the last time I read a local newspaper in print or watched TV news.
Dr. Jay, in #97 you appear to have responded to everyone but me. When can I expect you'll respond to this question: From what evidence does your recommendation we revise the childhood immunization schedule derive from?
Be specific.
#115, 120 Newspapers and TV stations *do* have websites these days, you know. :) And people *do* read them. We even watch the metrics pretty closely to find out where they're coming from.
Fourteen confirmed cases of measles reported in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. I've posted a few comments. Cripes one or two of those Texas posters are ignorant and thick as planks.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/17/measles-outbreak-sparks-increase-in-…
OT - but since when are annoying doctors spouting nonsense off topic - but I thought if anyone was on twitter they'd be interested in tangling with this guy. He posts seemingly science-based comments on psychology (mostly) but also threads in some wooish ideas. This one especially: https://twitter.com/ben_buchanan/status/356559301768249344
Whoa, lilady. An animal house reference? We can only surmise that you are a male who was between the ages of 12 and 17 in 1978 (when it hit the screens). All this talk of being a mom? Bah.
I.Rony Meter: Female and a wee bit older. Animal House for me, was not "a period piece". :-)
@ Flip: I found Ben for you; not quite a psychologist. No I don't do Twitter.
http://benbuchanan.com.au/
Thanks lilady. I'd take him on myself but don't know enough of the subject matter. Maybe Denice could offer some thoughts...
I think the US is on track for a record (since measles was declared eliminated in 2000 by the CDC) year for measles cases. It's just stupid sad, and I'd like to tell Dr. Jay and Dr. Bob that you both should be ashamed that you are a big part of the cause of this--and have you prevented even one case of autism? NO.
Quoth Dr. Gordon, #67:
Ah, so he does things differently now than he did when he wrote those things in the dim and distant past (August 2010). He gives "many more MMR vaccines" than he used to. How many would that be in absolute terms? One or two a month would be "many more" than one or two a year, as in 2010, but would protect only a tiny fraction of those 4000 innocent children whose health is entrusted to him.
I do wonder what Dr. Gordon has learned about "the benefits of immunity to rubella for women of child-bearing age" that he didn't know in 2010. I was under the impression that that information had been available since the early 60s.
I don't think it's Dr. Gordon's job to "know about vaccination and outbreaks worldwide". I think that's one of his duties as part of his job, which is providing the standard of care to the 4000 innocent children whose health is entrusted to him.
Further quoth Dr. Gordon, #73:
Why not? I can think of some pseudoscientists who have had amazingly lucrative careers for decades that way.
@ Flip:
Hello.
Either he's leaning towards woo ( 'reductionalism' is key) and might be hinting about the all-encompassing spirit
OR
it's a tricky ( perhaps thinking himself clever) way of talking about some of our cognitive abilities that synthesise
from more basic to more complex.
There is woo everywhere so I wouldn't be surprised in the least if someone with that much legitimate study behind him might be sampling from the woo buffet table.
Occasionally clinical psych uses evocative means in order to get people to talk more about their issues or to try out new strategies- reading or writing stories, talking about movie characters, creating art work, exercise classes.
Also its twitter: you want to get a rise out of people.
Cookie, s'il vous plait
"How many of you in the sciences have given your local newspaper/site a call or an email?"
Well, I just recently had an opinion piece published in my (US) local newspaper regarding vaccines and their safety.
Not to go off on an utterly massive tangent, but - the comments about measles being brought over from Switzerland is a detail I'd forgotten. I'll be interviewing for a position at an Evil Company over there this autumn - how woo-friendly is that country, do y'all know? I know Germany is very big on alt-med and the like - I'd just like to know what I'm potentially getting into...!
#133 Yay! Would that many more would do the same.
Though it'd still be a good idea to see if a reporter would perhaps write something for the news section, yes?
“How many of you in the sciences have given your local newspaper/site a call or an email?”
I did a letter to the editor for the local paper and was also on TV news during Tucson's 2008 measles outbreak advocating for vaccination.
More recently I (finally) had a letter published in a pediatric trade journal--http://contemporarypediatrics.modernmedicine.com/contemporary-pediatric…
In 2008? Been a while since then; most places will let you do letters to the editor more often than that.
But again, you could call a reporter up and say hey. We like that.
The local paper did a big series on vaccines last year and mostly sided with science-based medicine (though they had the obligatory chiropractor who was cluelessly and vocally antivaccine who thought that vaccines weren't that important and the diseases they prevent not that dangerous (because, of course, none of his 5 kids were vaccinated and all of them were in perfect health)). There were some online discussions and I'd offered up my name for further coverage as someone to go to, but nothing ever came of that.
@Jay Gordon,
Struggling to explain the homeopathy...?
We can wait.
#138 Huh. Well, my local newspaper does stories on vaccines every flu season, stories on vaccines every time there's an outbreak somewhere and stories on vaccines any time anything important comes up (like the pertussis-etc. shot not being effective and people needing to get boosters).
That's a newspaper with a staff of fewer than 10 people in the news department.
I guess when there's a reporter who takes an interest it makes a difference in frequency and quality of coverage, is what I'm trying to say.
At that point it's just the trick of getting a reporter to take an interest.
I have actually had a scientist call me up and say "Hey, how about a story on _____?" less frequently than once a year, in 9 years of reporting, despite living in multiple areas with research going on.
Sometimes their bosses call, and make them do stories, and you can generally tell they don't want to do it.
Of course, that's just my experience, so take the anecdote for what it's worth.
I wish there were a way to do a scientific poll and find out how many scientists have called up their local reporters on the phone or sent a friendly note on Facebook or via email in the past year.
I wish the ones in my area would call me.
Thanks Denice. I was thinki along the same lines as you. What got me wondering about how science based he was is because of the tendency towards very positive thinking New Age sounding stuff, and when combined with psych especially we all know that trends towards the woo side of things. Somestimes what people post is so borderline it's hard to tell what they actually think or support.
I'm still waiting for some of you to come posting on this CBS local radio site about the Dallas-Fort Worth measles outbreak:
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/17/measles-outbreak-sparks-increase-in-…
Just posted up, Lilady. I feel like we're battling the same stupid person under lots of pen names on these news stories, or maybe some sort of hydra.
What is funny, though, is one of the paragraphs in the article reads:
But concerned residents say they’d like more information about the cases, specifically, the ages of those infected and the city in which the patients live
There is one of those in-line links on "more information" and when you hover over it, an ad for Depends adult incontinence diapers pops up.
Not exactly the information anyone wanted.
Thanks Dr. Chris..and Edith Prickly for posting. I was beginning to feel quite lonely there. :-)
Jay Gordon: I could not be successful “imitating” a nice guy for decades.
LW: Why not? I can think of some pseudoscientists who have had amazingly lucrative careers for decades that way.
It's even used by lay people. There's a reason the Nice Guy(tm) is an internet and real life meme. Basically, anyone who claims to be a 'Nice Guy' is only nice as long as you agree to anything they say. Say something they don't want to hear, and watch them turn into Hyde.
Dr Gordon,
I find it interesting that you say that you're surprised such intelligent people would post as we do, opposing antivaccination tropes. You have done that before, employing backhanded flattery. Does it work with your customers? It's certainly a popular marketing technique -- praise your marks' great intelligence, saying that they're obviously smart enough to know the truth, which is why they've come to you and will be smart enough to trust you implicitly.
It's not about being smart, it's about being shrewd enough to recognize the "Emperor's New Clothes" strategy. None of us need your validation to feel good about ourselves, and we recognize your backhanded flattery for what it is -- empty, hollow, and nothing more than a way of putting us off our guard.
It fits right in with your repeated statements to lilady that she is "on probation". Do you suffer the delusion that that somehow matters to her? She, too, does not require your validation. In fact, I rather suspect your clear dislike of her and elburto and such are taken as compliments. After all, they do say you can judge a person by the quality of their enemies. Thus, you might want to reconsider your approach to them. Then again, if you are accustomed to people wanting your praise and validation, perhaps this would require too large of an adjustment period.
You do not willingly give the MMR, do you? You clearly attempt to discourage parents from it; it sounds as if they need to persuade *you* to give it. Yet these diseases are not peculiar to travelers and the indigent. (Not that a physician should be judging the worth of a treatment by the social status of a patient, of course, but perhaps you can enlighten us why it's reasonable to casually dismiss an example of CRS because it occurred in a black immigrant.) There was a rubella outbreak in my hometown when I was in high school in the 1990s; rubella was believed eradicated, but it came back rather quickly. We all got a second MMR. One of my classmates caught it, and she is not a first-generation African immigrant.
And then there was the mumps outbreak. I didn't catch it; I'd just had MMR again during that rubella outbreak. Others caught it, though. And just recently, there was a measles outbreak. Yes, it was in black people, the children of immigrants, but two things are worth noting. 1) The children themselves had not caught it in Africa; a traveler had brought it back and then it had spread within their community. 2) The reason the children were unvaccinated was not because they were immigrants; these children were born in the United States. They caught it because their parents had attended a lecture by Andrew Wakefield who told them it would cause autism. You should've heard the interview with one of the mothers, who was at the hospital by her son's bedside, excoriating Wakefield via a translator.
Measles, mumps, and rubella are very contagious, and they are just a plane-ride away. But it doesn't have to be you that takes the plane-ride for you to be exposed. You are deliberately leaving your patients vulnerable, and for the life of me, I cannot understand why.
Okay guys, I stayed away from Orac's friend's blog for weeks, because I didn't want to chase Dr. Jay off the SBM blog. You had all the fun posting at Dr. Jay...and I resisted posting at Jay...that is, until 4 AM this morning.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-use-the-law-when-scienc…
Be truthful now...
- Did I threaten Jay?
- Was I uncivil to Jay?
Yeah Jay, I'm baaaack on SBM and I Triple Dog Dare You to post back at me.
Lilady- I don't think you did anything worse than ask him to explain his recent comments and answer a reasonable question or two. This is, of course, where Gordon goes into hibernation, probably only functioning on his limbic structures until the next urge to post here percolates into his cortex by way of what must be clearly demyelinated tracts. Either that or he goes all pheochromopsychotic with mood swings and irrationality galore. Either way, it's not like there's much we can do.
I do wish that AAP pdf of vaccine safety studies were easier to find on the AAP web site (it's not, it's buried in the teeny fonted FAQ at the top of the page and then has no description with its link). It would also be nice if the AAP didn't cop out (it's not like it's a small group) and link to the WHO web page for reliable "vaccine safety web sites" (which looks to have last been updated a few years ago). Given that the AAP will every once-in-a-blue moon oppose the NVIC (http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/11/07/pediatricians-grou… , and http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/14/the-aap-protests-the-anti-… ), they ideally could summon up the courage to make a blacklist of anti-vax sites like the NVIC and AoA (and (when pigs fly at this rate) Dr. Bob's facebook page and Dr. Jay's website as well.)
Lilady,
It was plenty reasonable.
Alain
@ lilady:
Please be careful, I wouldn't want him to get angry at RI minions in general and TAKE BACK his lunch invitation to yours truly. Heaven forbid.
Although I've looked at his website and he recommends no poultry, fish, cheese etc.( probably no too big on gin either) so I wonder how much I'd really be missiing out on.
But I'm sure the conversation would be excellent.
@ Dr Chris: I cannot take credit for that PDF AAP link to recent safety studies. Months ago, perhaps on another science blog a commenter linked to that PDF...and I now have the link stashed in a folder on my laptop.
I believe Orac was the first science blogger to write about that NVIC Delta Airlines Flu video...his "friend" had been aboard a Delta flight and told Orac about it. So, it was Orac and the efforts of a slew of people writing letters to Delta and signing online petitions that shamed the AAP leadership into writing a letter to Delta, protesting that expensive NVIC promotional ad.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/03/vaccine-injury-awareness-w…
Thanks for the compliment Alain. See I have the ability to be pleasant and soft and cuddly. :-)
Denice, two years ago Jay was trying to convince me that we had a "lot in common" and offered to share a half-bottle of wine with me. As if...I would ever be in thrall for the opportunity to join him for a convivial drink.
Triple dare??? Holy shoot! I'm in, Lilady.
I offered a half bootle? Piker! I'll raise that to a nice full bottle of an early 2000s Barolo.
Gin? No, not much of a hard liquor drinker, Denice. And, yes, a vegetarian for going on 37 years.
Dr. Hickie, you seem overly fond of the AAP's doctrines for someone who has left our ranks.
Jay, you haven't responded to me on the SBM blog...so you haven't taken me up my dare.
Where's that statement you were preparing six days ago?
"I will take you off probation soon, lilady. And then we’ll meet for lunch and discuss this civilly away from the crowd.
By the way, I am preparing a public statement, “milady.”
Jay"
Why don't you send Orac a copy of your "Vaccine Webinar" for him to view and review? I'm willing to bet that you continue to scare parents away from vaccines, because they "may" cause autism, you continue to scare other parents away from vaccines if there is a close family member who has been diagnosed with an ASD; Prevnar (13 years post licensing "is still too new for (you) to recommend; you don't recommend MMR vaccine until a child is four years of age, and, "natural" (varicella) is "better", but you will provide Varivax if a child hasn't had chicken pox.
So no Jay. I'm not inclined to dine with you or to split a bottle of wine with you....I avoid socializing with those I don't respect.
Too bad Jay, that you went for the fame and publicity and have failed your patients. Your patients are the children your provide pediatric care to, not their anti-vaccine mommies and daddies.
So, every time you get a referral from Dr. Bob Sears' website because you are listed as a "vaccine friendly doctor", you are aiding and abetting parents in medical neglect.
Every time you are interviewed by media personalities for your "expertise" on immunizations and spout your ignorant not-based-in-science opinions about vaccines, you have an impact on childrens' preventive medicine and the herd immunity of a community.
Every time you make a public spectacle of yourself by actively fighting legislation, such as California AB 2109, you put children at risk because anti-vaccine parents...or fence-sitters...tend to opt for a Personal Belief Exemption to vaccines, based on your advice.
You have your colossal nerve to even mention Dr. Chris Hickie and his decision to not be a member of the AAP. You'd have to die and be born all over again, to ever hope to achieve the respect that Dr. Hickie has rightfully earned in the science community.
You should hang your head in shame, because of all the ignorant comments you have posted here and because of all the blatant untruths you've blathered about, here.
Dr. Jay, am I to expect that you'll never be willing to answer my simple question"From what evidence does your recommendation we revise the childhood immunization schedule derive from?"
Jay--I've left their ranks because they continue to silently tolerate you and Dr. Bob in such a way that parents will presume the AAP is ok with your dangerous antivaccine views. I've been trying for almost 6 years now and it took dropping my membership to even get a response from leadership (as well know as you emailed me after reading all about it at www.stopsearsandgordon.org). Given that the AAP is "dedicated to the health of all children", how they can be silent on you and Sears is inexcusable, given how critical vaccines are to the health of children.
I am encouraged to see that the AAP did put that pdf file on its web site (you will note it was put in in April 2013). That's a start (albeit a small one). But if I'm a parent looking for information on vaccine safety to see what the AAP says about the preposterous schedules you and Sears promote, there is nothing on the AAP web site that explicitly says not to follow your vaccine schedules or advice as they deviate drastically from the AAP/ACIP/CDC schedule.
If the AAP did that, I'd rejoin them and then work to get you and Sears tossed/denounced from within (which doesn't mean I'm still not working with AAP members on this, btw)
Also, Jay, that pdf is not AAP "doctrine"--it's not in any policy statements or in their bylaws, so don't even try to quote "AAP doctrine" to me given how you don't follow it.
I notice that Dr. Gordon still has not given any quantification of "many more" vaccinations than one or two per year. He needs to do that if he wants anyone to believe that he has really changed his antivax ways.
Lilady--well, however you came upon that pdf...thanks! I wrote the AAP about an NVIC billboard that appeared along I-10 in Tucson a few months ago. Nothing happened based on that it ran for the typical month-long contract you have to purchase on billboards (thankfully, it was covered over at the end of the month by a new lessor). What did happen was I had parents asking me about the NVIC based on that billboard, which tells me it did reach parents and probably negatively contributed to our declining vaccination rates.
I don't know WTH is up with the AAP, CDC, AAFP, AMA etc regarding immunization. If they're hoping these antivax freaks are going to go away, they are wrong. Ignoring them is causing more and more parents to not vaccinate. They basically have free reign of social media/networks right now., and if people hear something often enough without opposition, they start to believe it is true, even if it seems outrageous at first.
I have a question. Many of you won't believe this but I trust your opinions about vaccines.
As you all know, Israelis are now receiving an attenuated oral polio vaccine with 1 and 3. I have a number of families in Israel part time and others traveling to Israel. Assurances are being made that this vaccine poses zero risk to children who have received at least one "killed" vaccine and that makes sense to me. Further assurances are being made that this vaccine poses no risk to anyone.
I am conversant, as are all of you on VAP and what's now being called VDP in India and elsewhere and understand the likely need to transition to the IPV from the OPV in developing nations. I also understand that continuing OPV programs in many regions of Asia and Africa is crucial to eradication and should not be interrupted until IPV programs can be put into place.
Is this OPV being used in Israel the best way to deal with viral strands being found in sewage? They also report that 25-35 people have been found carrying polio virus. Is this likely to be strictly vaccine associated?
Thanks for your help. Please excuse my cross-posting this but I'd like your advice.
Jay
@ Dr Jay:
The gin reference is (mostly) an in-joke based on my illustrious ancestor's arcane *herbal* remedy in VIctorian times that has led to better things for the rest of us ( education, business starts). I hardly drink myself.
Dr. Jay: The reason for the implementation of one dose of live attenuated for Israeli children who have already received IPV is explained by this Global Alert and Response from the WHO:
http://www.who.int/csr/don/2013_08_15/en/index.html
"15 August 2013 - The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates the risk of further international spread of wild poliovirus type 1 (WPV1) from Israel to remain moderate to high. This risk assessment reflects evidence of increasing geographic extent of circulation over a prolonged period of time.
WPV1 has been detected in 67 sewage samples from 24 sampling sites in Israel, collected from 3 February 2013 to 4 August 2013. Initially restricted to southern Israel, WPV1 has now also been detected in the central district as well. WPV1 has also been isolated in stool samples from 27 healthy children (all under the age of nine years) and one adult, who had been fully immunized for their age as part of ongoing stool sample survey activities. No case of paralytic polio has been reported. In addition to routine acute flaccid paralysis, public health authorities have expanded the surveillance to all age groups and have increased enterovirus surveillance and are screening aseptic meningitis cases for polio.
A supplementary immunization activity (SIA) with bivalent oral polio vaccine (OPV) started in parts of southern Israel during the week of 5 August 2013, and a nationwide campaign is planned for 18 August 2013 for children up to the age of nine years. The objective of these SIAs with OPV is to boost mucosal immunity levels in cohorts of children naïve to OPV to rapidly interrupt virus circulation."
You state...
"I am conversant, as are all of you on VAP and what’s now being called VDP in India and elsewhere and understand the likely need to transition to the IPV from the OPV in developing nations. I also understand that continuing OPV programs in many regions of Asia and Africa is crucial to eradication and should not be interrupted until IPV programs can be put into place."
Would you like to rephrase that statement? India does not now "call" VDP cases or iVDP cases, without testing to confirm that the case is caused by receipt of the polio vaccine. India has been free of endemic polio since January 1, 2011.
There is no travel advisory to immunize U.S. Citizens traveling to Israel with OPV vaccine, although all children are advised to have completed the Childhood Recommended Vaccine Schedule as recommended by the CDC and the AAP, plus hepatitis A vaccine. Rabies vaccine is recommended for rural travel within Israel and Typhoid vaccine is recommended for travel to the West Bank and the Gaza region.
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/clinician/none/israel
You can find the Recommended Childhood Vaccine "Catch-Up" Schedule at the CDC website, Dr. Jay.
Thank you, lilady.
Did the WPV1 come from people who actually had contracted the disease or was it excreted by recipients of the OPV?
And is it possible that the risk of transmission of viral infection exceeds the benefits when this extra dose is given orally to a million people?
Gee Jay, for someone who prides himself on being a vaccine expert, the "W" in WPV1 doesn't mean anything to you?
@Science Mom: did you expect him to miss the opportunity to insinuate that vaccines cause more harm than they protect against?
Dr. Jay cross posted that same comment on SBM and used it to launch a Gish Gallop and a JAQing off campaign. I've got a "nice" comment directed at him...still in moderation.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-use-the-law-when-scienc…
Oh of course not and he doesn't fail to disappoint on showing what an ignorant blowhard he is either. I can't imagine what self-absorbed, dunderhead parents would seek his advice out on vaccines.
Dr. Jay, it's been 5 days since my post @27 without a response. At this point I can only assume your recommendation we revise the childhood immunization schedule is unsupported by any actual evidence whatsoever.
Jay readily admitted on the SBM blog that he has no proof and no scientific publications to back up any of his claims; he states it is (only) his opinions.
He's a vile POS who is insanely jealous of Orac and other doctors who have earned our respect.
Chris Hickie,
I just noticed this:
I am going to have to steal that, though I'm waiting for Jay to explain to you what you really meant...
I was just looking at some of the Vaccine Safety Data Link (VSD) studies, and that gave me an idea.
For those of you new to the story, all about the VSDL:
The idea: there are vaccine-rejecting, refusing, or dodging pediatric practices. I can think of Dr. Jay's, Dr. Bob's, Meyer Eisenstein's Homefirst, Larry Palevsky's, ... I am sure there are more.
These practices don't get up into the hundreds of thousands as are enrolled in the VSD, but surely well up into the 10s of thousands
Why haven't these pediatricians volunteered to put their records into a retrospective vax vs. unvaxed link? What is stopping them?
I love the VSD project! When I encounter anti-vaxers who claim that there are no studies of post vaccination adverse effects, I bring up the fact that large scale monitoring by VSD has, in fact, been in effect since 1990 and multitudes of studies have been generated from the data for 20+ years. Scientific consensus of the studies that adverse effects are extremely rare continues to grow!
This blog post mentions that naturalnews.com is "one of the two biggest, baddest quack websites" - what's the other one?
Ironically, themselves. None of the paeds you list nor their affiliates from AoA, GR, SafeMinds, etc. have the capability to perform such a study even though they have the money and study populations. They refuse to allow any "outside" investigators mine their records so they can continue to whinge that The Study™ won't be done.
If they opened thier records to independent analysts the results would only be used to undermine confidence on their preferred and predetermined conclusion (that vaccines cause autism).
Can't have that!
Alan Silverblatt, I think the other is Mercola.
Yes, it's true folks. I'm banned on RI and I'm devastated. It was only a week ago when Jay offered to buy me lunch along with a bottle of a fine wine. Was it something I said about him in one of my comments? Was he insulted that I called him a liar and a phony?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-use-the-law-when-scienc…
Jay is just playing the "flatter you so hopefully you'll say something I can then call you upon game".
Really, Jay--you can simply go to the cdc web site and look at travel recc's for Israel or call the CDC or your local pediatric ID doctor. I'd probably call an expert if I were you (if what you ask is really true), especially since only you know what type of bizarre vaccine "schedule" you use for your pediatric patients. But then you'll just probably do whatever the heck you feel like afterward.
Dr. Chris: Dr. Jay isn't even trying to roll over me with his silly invitations, anymore. He's angry that I and others on the SBM blog called him out for his snide remarks and JAQing off questions, after I answered his questions and provided links to the WHO decision about the administration of one OPV to young Israeli children and the CDC Travel Advisory, about children traveling to Israel.
Last night I was reading some of Orac's old posts, dating back to February 2011, and I located one of my posts where I questioned Dr. Jay website link to whale.to about post exposure prophylaxis for possible exposure to a rapid animal. Can you imagine how vehemently Dr Jay opposes vaccines, that he puts up those scary anti-vaccine articles from whale.to ?
Maybe Jay is actually the pediatric version of Dr. Jason Cole, on the now-cancelled NBC series "Do No Harm", in which Dr. Cole has some sort of rather odd multiple personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_No_Harm_(TV_series))
@ Dr. Chris: I saw Dr. Jay's website during February, 2011 and his rabies link. On that link were a series of articles from whale.to, reports about side effects for pets immunized against rabies (including this gem from the science editor of AoA, Kent Heckenlively http://www.whale.to/vaccine/bugzy.html and other articles about human rabies vaccines that are no longer in use.
I was able to locate this case of human rabies in a child reported in the MMWR during 1995. Perhaps the parent of that little girl found some quack anti-vaccine website for his source on rabies transmission:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00038616.htm
In fairness to the parent, bat bites are easy to miss and few people understand the very real threat that bats pose.
And, unless the patient or a member of his/her family can connect the dots, there's not a whole lot for an ER doc to go on for a diagnosis.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmWr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6232a2.htm
Shay, reading the MMWR rabies case link I provided, a live bat was found in a sleeping child's bedroom, "was destroyed and buried"...after the parents found no evidence of a bite on the child.
Dead or alive bats which are found in the bedroom where children (or adults) were sleeping, which are not captured or not taken for testing by animal control staff, present a difficult situation for a doctor to "make a call" about administering rabies PEP (Post-Exposure Prophylaxis) (See Page 15 of the 36 Page MMWR Rabies document):
When I worked as a public health nurse, doctors always "made the call" for rabies PEP for a bat exposure while sleeping in a bedroom where the bat was unavailable for testing. BTW, the ACIP now recommends one less rabies vaccine shot (down from 5 individual vaccine shots) given on Days O,3,7,14 for PEP.
Remember Jennifer Hutchinson and her "Saving Jake" book? She claimed her grandchild became autistic after receiving rabies PEP:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/04/12/proof-is-not-what-most-peo…
It's important to note that even if the quote about the incidence of serious adverse events vs. cervical cancer deaths is 100% true... that's still a big improvement. "If you go unvaccinated there is an N% chance of plain old dying. If you are vaccinated there is an N% chance of a serious event, probably nonfatal but including a small chance of death." For a few bucks I know which way I'm going...
You people all sound like you are in some kind of venomous deluded cult. Spewing hate and anger. Post your vaccination records you deluded clowns. Have you all run out and had yourselves and your babies poked for the 200+ available vaccines? If not maybe you should keep the juvenile hate fest to yourselves. Really. Let's air the facts. Post your vaccination records Orac. This is scienceblogs.com? Where's the science? Bunch of fake scientists sycophants sucking up to their sugar daddies. You honestly think mandatory Garadisil shots are necessary? That's good science? No wonder you are mad.. i would be too if i had to hump that useless crap day in and day out. What a nightmare.
Wow....just....wow.....
Project much Louis?
I don't know what that proves but I'm up to date on Tdap, rabies, hep b, smallpox, MMR.
200 available vaccines Louis? Could you please list them?
I'm sorry you have so much difficulty recognising a discussion of science Louis. Perhaps if you had finished primary school you would be doing a bit better right now.
I'm a real scientist and don't have a sugar daddy; how 1950's anyhow. Would you elaborate on that please? Oh, you have to be a "fake" scientist to have a sugar daddy?
Gardasil isn't mandatory and I can't imagine what the rest of your vomitus even means but I would hazard a guess that you fancy yourself ruhl ruhl clever for it.
Louis W:
And exactly where are they mandatory?
A visit to Louis W.'s facebook page reveals that he's somewhat hard of thinking. Birther and NVIC links abound. Perhaps, Louis, you should take the advice you yourself shared:
If I were you, I'd do some serious thinking about why you felt it necessary to post the comment you wrote.
those who are skilled in combat do not become angered
Bat barf.
Just another ignorant drive-by poster.
Birther and NVIC links abound.
Ah, crank magnetism at work. Nature abhors a vacuum, especially one of the inter-cranial kind.
So wait, the professional opinion of a leading vaccine researcher who CREATED the vaccines is irrelevant? She's THE most reliable and accurate source of information possible regarding these vaccines, and she says they're dangerous and unnecessary. I feel sorry for the daughters of you "pro-vaccers," though thankful that the gene pool will correct itself eventually...
@john johnson
Did you even read the article, necromancer?
Obviously not.
Mr. Johnson, she did not "create" the vaccine, she was only part of the testing protocol. Really, dude, before you comment you should really read the article.
People survied for thousands of years without stupid manmade vaccines, built for no other reason than to huge profits for the pharmaceutical industry. We should all be dead or on the point of extinction from disease if all their claims were true.... instead we have a world that is steadily overpopulating itself, more in the third world regions where vaccination rates are way less than in developed countries where many now seem to be struggling with infertility....hmmmm... anyone heard of the game 'connect the dots'...? lol :)
Except the ones who didn't. Plus, I'm sure people who survived VPDs but lost their sight, hearing, mobility, fertility, et cetera, would beg to differ with you setting such a low bar for success.
Circular logic? This early in your argument? You've never really learned to think critically, have you?
Showing you don't even know what our claims are. Our claims are that VPDs cause death, maiming and misery that can be prevented. Nowhere in there does it say "Oh, and they're an extinction-level threat."
Would you read about a school bus accident where one of the 40 children aboard was killed from their injuries and say "Oh, well, it didn't even come close to being a total wipeout of all the children, therefore everyone who's saying this was a senseless tragic accident and we should take steps to prevent such accidents is clearly wrong"? I hope not, because if so, you're clearly a heartless SOB. Yet the logic is identical to your "argument" against vaccines.
People survied for thousands of years
Only thousands? I think we have a Young-Earth Creationist here.
Except giving everyone on the planet three vaccinations against a disease earns far less profit than letting them catch said disease and buying medicine.
Weird fact: if children are more likely to reach adulthood, parents tend to have fewer of them. This holds true everywhere.
tl;dr You've made arguments that have been made and refuted literally thousands of times before. Nobody's impressed.
Avrillev,
As a matter of fact that's not true. Historically, and until relatively recently, most people had 6 children, but only 2 would survive, which is why the Earth's population didn't grow very fast until the industrial revolution, which brought better hygiene and medical care, and increased infant survival.
The number of children on the planet has now stabilized, as the birth rate in developing countries has now mostly fallen to a little over 2*. As Julian pointed out, knowing that your children have a very good chance of living to adulthood leads people to have only a couple of children. I suggest you watch this documentary (it's on BBC iPlayer if you're in the UK) - I highly recommend it.
* Total population is still increasing because people aren't dying as fast as they are being born, but as the baby boomers die off, population should stabilize at about 11 billion.
Except for the estimated 300-500 million people who died from smallpox in the 20th century alone (not to mention the deaths of perhaps up to 90% of Native North Americans, or don't they count?), as well as the millions of people who died from other vaccine-preventable diseases such as polio, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, etc.
Avrillev's "arguments" remind me of another antivax poster who registered contempt for infectious disease, noting that the Black Death (plague) "only" killed an estimated one-third of the world's population in the Middle Ages.
Hey, since the other two-thirds survived, no biggie, right?
Diane Harper said those things in 2009, not 2011. And the source isn't exactly super reliable:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091009115942/http://www.twitlonger.com/sh…
You should probably fix that.
Who said she said them in 2011? I reread my post, and I didn't say that.
Orac - I think Johnny was referring to this part:
The link goes to a Tweet (albeit through twitlonger.com rather than twitter.com) which is dated in 2009. I can't comment on whether the source is reliable or not.
I read through the article hoping to get something other than simple assertion and tirades of asinine abuse. Something to show me that Dr Harper and other anti-vaccine campaigners are wrong. Unfortunately it isn't there. The loudest quacks of quackery appear to be on this website.
@ Chris Cooke:
I refer you to
that Orac pointed out that Harper was NOT the Lead Developer but the Principal Investigator;
which has a link to a study inserted, and;
which also has a link to a study inserted.
You either fail at comprehension, or you're a liar.