Phil Jones vindicated

The House of Commons report on the emails stolen from CRU has vindicated Phil Jones -- he has "no case to answer":

The focus on Professor Jones and CRU has been largely misplaced. On the accusations relating to Professor Jones's refusal to share raw data and computer codes, we consider that his actions were in line with common practice in the climate science community. We have suggested that the community consider becoming more transparent by publishing raw data and detailed methodologies. On accusations relating to Freedom of Information, we consider that much of the responsibility should lie with UEA, not CRU.

In addition, insofar as we have been able to consider accusations of dishonesty--for example, Professor Jones's alleged attempt to "hide the decline"--we consider that there is no case to answer. Within our limited inquiry and the evidence we took, the scientific reputation of Professor Jones and CRU remains intact. We have found no reason in this unfortunate episode to challenge the scientific consensus as expressed by Professor Beddington, that "global warming is happening [and] that it is induced by human activity"

James Annan points out that it is the governments own policy of wanting ownership of intellectual property that is preventing the publication of raw data and code.

See also: William Connolley, Eli Rabbet, Joe Romm and Clive Hamilton.

A big raspberry to Fred Pearce, who won't let go of his vendetta against Jones.

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Hysterical accusations of a cover-up in 5, 4, 3, 2...

@WotWot: heh, made a similar comment on a Dutch news site yesterday. No less than two comments later the first such accusation appeared. Sometimes I hate being right.

Wrote a letter to The Australian asking if they were going to prominently cover this story - that there was no conspiracy, nothing illegal, and the data says what the data says (and wow, who ever would've guessed?).

No I won't hold my breath, because I can only do that for a few seconds, not a few months.

And yes, let's brace ourselves for accusations of the conspiracy to hide the conspiracy. Or is this the third tier? The conspiracy to hide the conspiracy which hides the conspiracy? It's easy to get a bit confused when reading denialist commentary as to how many conspiracies we have running at one time.

By Other Mike (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

I forgot to add, one big criticism I have of climate science is that all the conspiracies overlap each other. Managing so many conspiracies is overly bureaucratic, and far too much duplication of effort.

By Other Mike (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Hysterical accusations of a cover-up in 5, 4, 3, 2...

Accusations like this are a win-win for denialists.

If something - anything, no matter how trivial - is found, they trumpet it like the Second Coming has arrived.

If nothing is found, they trumpet the conspiracy to cover it up like the Second Coming (because they *know* there must have been *something*). This is particularly effective because many of their followers don't need much persuading when rumours of a conspiracy are afoot.

By Lotharsson (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

@ 2, 3, & 6

Yes, it so predictable*, isn't it.

I have no doubt it was already happening across the wider InterTubesThingy, long before I even fired up my computer this morning and read the news. Predictable, and retrodictable too.

(* 'Predictable', in the special case sense of the probability being indisputably 1.)

To a conspiracy theorist, there are two types of evidence: If it shows what they want, it proves their theory. If it doesn't show what they want, it proves there has been a cover-up.

The way people react to the House of Commons Committee's exoneration of Jones and the CRU product pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Insisting on holding Jones "accountable" (with his resignation?) for the nebulous "crime" of withholding information from non-scientists has nothing to do with science.

What Fred Pearce is doing at this point is obviously meant primarily to "rehabilitate" his reputation as a science journalist, which has obviously been tarnished by his jump to "convict" Jones before all the evidence was even in.

Pearce has been left looking like the fool with egg all over his face.

I forgot to add, one big criticism I have of climate science is that all the conspiracies overlap each other. Managing so many conspiracies is overly bureaucratic, and far too much duplication of effort.

This is what you get with government programs. The free market is much better at creating profitable conspiracies. Ask any libertarian.

You wrote to The Australian?

Are you insane? Why would you do that?

Murdoch loves people who help him own the issue by interacting with his properties on his terms.

Tim:

I'm all for herding cats and so on, but what sort of letter to Pearce/Guardian would help?

Seriously - the only thing I could gather over at RealClimate is that the Economist was doing a better job - would that be a good thing to bring up?

I was really angry to see what Pearce just wrote, but being furious never solves things in and of itself.

By Marion Delgado (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

It's pretty clear that Pearce has a personal vendetta against Jones which is clouding his judgement on everything he writes. I'm more interested in what George Monbiot's response will be. I've emailed him to ask whether he'll apologise to Phil Jones for demanding his resignation in November.

I just skimmed the Pearce article. He is vicious. (And they say women are bitchy!) Obviously he loathes Prof Jones. I suspect as well, he wants to keep the issue alive because of his book that was mentioned on realclimate.org, if I understood Randerson correctly. If the emails mean nothing then his book is a real washout. (And I sincerely hope he gets zip from it.)

stopmurdoch:

Indiscretions that happened before you were 5 years old should be left in the past! :)

Seriously, I want to influence, not vent - so what do we say to Pearce that will actually work?

By Marion Delgado (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Well, you can look at what is happening to McLean on the Drum.....:)

The source for First Nations and Aboriginal news?

Some more here, especially on Graham Stringer.

http://deepclimate.org/2010/03/31/climategate-investigations-round-1-cr…

"Contrarians took comfort in maverick Labour MP Graham Stringerâs objections to some of the findings. But even here, there is little for the contrarians to cheer about, as Stringer appeared at pains to avoid any appearance of endorsing the plausibility of any of the specific accusations of dishonesty. Thatâs just as well, because it turns out that Stringer appears to be relying for his understanding of the issues, not on the submitted evidence, but rather â wait for it â the âquickieâ book on Climategate written by Steven Mosher and Thomas Fuller."

Bud:

> I've emailed [Monbiot] to ask whether he'll apologise to Phil Jones for demanding his resignation in November.

Yes. This is what I'm waiting for - he owes Jones an expansive, grovelling apology.

Monbiot's reaction to the Denier propaganda has been pathetic over the last few months - he appears to have capitulated.

Maybe some folks here could please go over to the BBC (Richard Black's post) trying to make some reasonable and factually correct comments about this affair. Richard Black's piece is OK, but he insisted on asking McIntyre's opinion. And IMO, Black does not go far enough to highlight what an abject failure this exercise was for the denier machine.

Thus far the deniers have been posting random thoughts and conspiracy theories at will over at BBC.

DC @19, some of the commentators there have made the (incorrect) statement that Stinger was the only scientist on the committee. I really liked the abstract that you provided at the start of your last article. Great idea.

By MapleLeaf (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

If having a room full of politicians who have been promoting your agenda for the last 20 years say "Well, he didn't do anything different than any other climate scientist" is vindication, then that's a very, very sad win

@JRyan - that's a very interesting IF. Also in fantasyland: me and Rosario Dawson! (Which is a very, very happy win.)

A one day hearing and Jones is 'vindicated'. Come on Tim not even you can believe that to be true.

By Dave Andrews (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

...1

And here they are (22 & 24).

@Bud

Yes, I'm waiting for Monbiot to apologise for his knee-jerk calls for resignation. He jumped the gun, and showed no sign of backing away from that position over the last few months.

He fell for the misrepresentations and smears, and should own up to it.

WotWot,

There were no hysterics, merely a question about how anyone could believe a one day hearing was able to resolve anything?

Do you believe that is possible?

By Dave Andrews (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Dave A said @ #24 "A one day hearing and Jones is 'vindicated'. Come on Tim not even you can believe that to be true".

C'mon Dave A, be fair.

They did allow Boehmer-Christiansen and McinTyres to spew their incoherent dribble during the course of it.

How much more of a handicap can you tosseurs require or wish for?

I would like to apologise for ever doubting the veracity of the hockey stick.

There were no hysterics, merely a question about how anyone could believe a one day hearing was able to resolve anything?

If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who's done the exhaustive study the relationship between time spent on hearings and their possibility of resolution, right? It was pretty definitive, from what I recall, although some folks said you didn't spend enough time on it for it to have been able to resolve anything. Did you ever address those concerns?

Do you believe that is possible?

Let's put it this way: a billion single-day hearings will come to a resolution before you ever say anything worthwhile.

Monbiot is still silent. Maybe he should resign.

@31. Maybe Monbiot is just horribly embarrassed at having fallen for the denialist spin?

@24. Perhaps you neglected to read it, Dave Andrews? He has no case to answer.

We all understand your bitter disappointment at now two formal inquiries which have found there is no evidence of fudged data in climate science, but unfortunately whether they convene for a day or a year patiently waiting for evidence of fudged data to turn up, it is not going to change this situation. To be fair, they did call for submissions, both written and verbal, however I'm not sure that the "liar, liar, pants on fire" submission favoured by the denialist community is generally considered conclusive evidence of wrongdoing.

Now, your boys have had access to all this raw climate data plus the software code used to process it for quite a while since this event occurred (plus access to everyone else's data for years before that). How's that data analysis going showing that it was manipulated to show warming? Everything seems to be real quiet on that front. Can we assume that you're still "working on it"?

By Other Mike (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

The source for First Nations and Aboriginal news?

Sheesh, we used to have better POEs. It's like their heart's not in it any more.

By Lotharsson (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Perhaps Monbiot is keeping his powder dry until Sir Muir Russell's inquiry reports.

There were no hysterics, merely a question about how anyone could believe a one day hearing was able to resolve anything?

It took me about 5 minutes of reading the emails to discover that they did not say what the denialists claimed they said.

One day is more than enough to conclude that there's no there, there.

P.Lewis

Perhaps Monbiot is keeping his powder dry until Sir Muir Russell's inquiry reports.

You are probably right, and to be fair, I'd probably do the same had I put myself in Monbiot's position.

Incidentally, the pre-emptive accusations of cover-up on that score have already started over in climate Lala-Land. McIntyre has been going into hysterics over it.

@33 I ain't no Poe, I just get a little annoyed by cryptic comments without links that point to sites with incredibly generic names like "Drum". I did a search. What I found was what I described (plus a billion percussion sites). After a lot more searching, I found the site he was referring to. After a lot more searching on that site, I found the article. Since he knew what the URL was, he could have just included it. In the third person, of course, so it would have still been annoying. ;-)

Monbiot is hedging his bets, while James Lovelock is looking at the big picture.

'We havenât got the physics worked out yet....

We do need scepticism about the predictions about what will happen to the climate in 50 years, or whatever. Itâs almost naive, scientifically speaking, to think we can give relatively accurate predictions for future climate. There are so many unknowns that itâs wrong to do it.'

I ain't no Poe...

I wasn't sure you were, but couldn't resist the implied pun in response to your somewhat cryptic comment ;-)

By Lotharsson (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

There were no hysterics, merely a question about how anyone could believe a one day hearing was able to resolve anything?

It took me about 5 minutes of reading the emails to discover that they did not say what the denialists claimed they said.
One day is more than enough to conclude that there's no there, there.

Exactly.

el gordo quoting out-of-context:

Itâs almost naive, scientifically speaking, to think we can give relatively accurate predictions for future climate.

And it's absolutely naive, stupid even, to assume that dumping vast quantities of CO2, a known greenhouse gas, into the atmosphere will have no significant adverse effect.

By Chris O'Neill (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

I found this comment on the Times Online article. Thanks Adam R. whoever you are :-)

The deniers are wailing across the internet: the investigation did not confirm their ignorant suspicions; it must have been fixed.

If God Himself had produced stone tablets exonerating Jones, a million deniers would have become atheists overnight.

The second inquiry into ClimateGate will be chaired by Lord Oxburgh, a director of GLOBE, the Global Legislators Organisation for a Balanced Environment.

The peer leading the second Climategate enquiry at the University of East Anglia serves as a director of one of the most powerful environmental networks in the world and has failed to declare it.

James Delingpole and Bishop Hill have the wrap on the conflicts of interest and power plays in the second committee, and how the GLOBE company was set up to avoid FOIâs.

In 2007 Globe created âa forum for legislators and business leaders to discuss the 2012 climate agreement, illegal logging and related issuesâ.

Like the end of the world.

get over it el gordo.

nothing of any relevance was inside those STOLEN MAILS.

this will now be confirmed by a series of investigations.

just be happy with the misinformation and confusion that denialists were able to spread among the uneducated.

What is telling about the reaction of the delusionals here is that once again, they demonstrate the behaviour they disingenuously complain of in climate scientists.

The data from the stolen emails has been ecamined and the result doesn't fit their model -- that being that these emails offer evidence of a scientific fraud on a global scale -- which can only prove that the data is wrong or thast this inquiry was part of the fraud. Their model is unfalsifiable, and of that, they have not the least skepticism.

By Fran Barlow (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

sod
>nothing of any relevance was inside those STOLEN MAILS.

Loxburgh isn't heading the email inquiry.
There are two inquiries, one into the emails and another into the science.

Loxburgh is leading the science inquiry.
Sir Muir Russell is leading the inquiry looking at the emails.

No matter how many formal inquiries find...what was it again?.....oh yeah that's right - no case to answer - the sceptics are not going to be happy until some inquiry, any inquiry dammit, finds evidence of a grand conspiracy.

They could be waiting quite some time for that, given the body of scientific evidence collected over decades.

These people are just mental. I'm now totally convinced of that (yeah I'm a slow learner). They have 'roos running loose in the top paddock. They really, truly do.

By Other Mike (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Only, Fran, the scientific fraud on a global scale is not a testable hypothesis in the skeptiverse: it is a self-evident axiom. And a corollary of this axiom is that the emails (which were leaked by somebody who couldn't stomack the fraud) must contain evidence of the fraud. Consequently, the failure of the committee to find any evidence of fraud implies that the whole investigation was a white-wash. It all follows logically from the axiom. There is no way it can be otherwise. In the skeptiverse.

By Lars Karlsson (not verified) on 01 Apr 2010 #permalink

Thanks for the clarification, Paul.

Seem to me the denialistas missed a golden opportunity to make out that this was an April Fools gag post.

By Ezzthetic (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

German magazine Der Spiegel published an at least partially denialist article. "Fair and balanced" ...

By Chris From Europe (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Dave Andrews,

I require your details, address, phone number, email, professional associations and collaborations etc.

This is because I am going to serve you with a FOI request to check what work you are doing on the data and code that has been released by groups such as CRU, etc. The reason I can serve the FOI request is that my taxes paid for that data and my taxes have paid for its release and my taxes have paid for that unneeded UK parliamentary enquiry. So if you are going to handle the data I helped pay for then I want to know if I am getting my moneys' worth.

If you are not doing anything with that data and didn't request it then fine just confirm that for me. If you refuse by saying you are not in the UK tax juristriction and so not covered then I am tax resident in two territories so I will make the request in the other territory.

So are you doing anything to analyse the data and code?

The tone of many of these comments is disappointing, to say the least. It seems pretty clear that Jones is a very bad scientist or simply dishonest (I prefer the former.) There have been so many peer reviewed holes blown into his scientific model of global warming that no serious scientist should take it seriously. He, as some of his colleagues, is an embarrassment to the rich history of western science that precedes him. I should also note that anyone who uses the word "denier" in this context is a low life; the implicit ad hominem argument underlying the use of this indecent term flows from the weakness of the underlying argument.

By DBeckerMich, Ph.D. (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

@39:

We do need scepticism about the predictions about what will happen to the climate in 50 years, or whatever. Itâs almost naive, scientifically speaking, to think we can give relatively accurate predictions for future climate.

To the extent that there is substantial uncertainty about future warming, the issue should be treated as an insurance problem. Low-cost steps should be taken to minimize the probability of high-cost consequences. I am not certain that my house will burn down, but I still buy fire insurance.

But mitigation is the one thing that denialists are dogmatically opposed to. They cannot admit, therefore, that substantial warming might occur but hopefully won't be too bad, because it still argues for the same course of action. So they're forced to believe that global warming is a hoax or a fraud, and (ironically for people calling themselves 'skeptics'), they adopt a position of absolute certainty that unlimited carbon emissions will never cause significant warming.

This is why, as Lars pointed out, the existence of a vast global warming conspiracy is a self-evident axiom for these people. It is the only way to reconcile the cognitive dissonance caused by science and their belief system going in opposite directions.

There have been so many peer reviewed holes blown into his scientific model of global warming that no serious scientist should take it seriously.

Okay, I challenge you to show us these "peer-reviewed" holes. Citations please.

re: 48
Loxburgh?

Lord Ronald Oxburgh is leading the science inquiry. He is a *very* good guy, was the long-time Rector of Imperial College, and for a while, was recruited Chairman of Shell (to clean up the mess).

He is pretty blunt, and and surprised some people in My fears for the planet, a most un-oil-chiefy interview, done by The Guardian's David Adam, who has been doing good work on the IOP mess in UK.

By John Mashey (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

@DBeckerMich, Ph.D.

Thanks for that self-righteous, evidence free rant.

Thanks for confirming yet again that - like children that feel the need to append their age when writing letters to newspapers or magazines - it is those that are most divorced from a credible understanding of the science at hand that feel the burning need to tack letters at the end of their name at every opportunity. Every time I see it it reminds me of "Arnold J. Rimmer (Bsc Ssc)".

Thanks for confirming yet again that those that leap to accusations of Ad Hominem are normally those without either evidence to back up their position or indeed an understanding of what Ad Hominem actually means.

As per your request, I will refrain from labelling you a "denier". You may have your pick of "mind-bogglingly stupid", or "tone-trolling liar".

The tone of many of these comments is disappointing, to say the least.

Really? I hadn't thought so.

It seems pretty clear that Jones is a very bad scientist or simply dishonest (I prefer the former.)

I stand corrected.

DBeckerMich, Ph.D. @ 55

You said of Phil Jones:

"his scientific model of global warming".

What model is this? Why do you call it a model? Could you describe it for us using references (as you would've been taught to do all through undergrad to awarding of your PhD) and how it fits or doesn't with the science of global warming.

If God Himself had produced stone tablets exonerating Jones, a million deniers would have become atheists overnight.

Apparently Adam R and I think a lot alike, though I said "If God himself hit them over the head with stone tablets exonerating Jones ..."

Too funny, though I don't remember where I posted it. We're both right, too.

There have been so many peer reviewed holes blown into his scientific model of global warming that no serious scientist should take it seriously.

Psst ... even PhDs can learn to do the Google and figure out that Phil Jones isn't a climate modeler.

I should also note that anyone who uses the word "denier" in this context is a low life; the implicit ad hominem argument underlying the use of this indecent term flows from the weakness of the underlying argument.

I agree. Use of the indecent term "low life" flows from the weakness of the underlying argument, which was that Phil Jones is either incompetent or dishonest because all the models (he never made) have been blown out of the water by anywhere up to zero peer-reviewed papers.

It's hard to undermine an argument like that, so bravo. That takes real skill.

McIntyre's Myrmidon said (65),

"The planet has been cooling since 1998."

Which is why 9 of the 10 warmest years on record all date after 1998. Thanks for playing anyway.

By Robert Murphy (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

I should also note that anyone who uses the word "denier" in this context is a low life;

I've always preferred the term "denialiscenti".

By Elmer, Ph.D (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Jeremy C,

Oh aren't you a card? Hang on your initial is C so you may well be!

By Dave Andrews (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Jeremy C,

The amount of money expended on this enquiry would be but a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of that that may have been wasted on climate change research over the last 20 years.

By Dave Andrews (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Money spent on climate change research has not really been wasted, because it will help us detect imminent global cooling as it happens.

We will adapt quickly, avoid mass starvation and economic dislocations, simply by being more aware.

Although $80 billion might seem a little excessive, there are satellites and lots of boffins in white coats.

@65. *Sigh*. Whoever would've thought you'd pick an anomously hot year to compare all the long term trends to? Haven't you guys stopped playing this game yet? Everyone else can see right through it, why can't you?

DBeckerMich PhD, telling everyone you have a PhD doesn't make you default to a higher level of intelligence and commonsense, as we have seen so often.

"I should also note that anyone who uses the word "denier" in this context is a low life; the implicit ad hominem argument underlying the use of this indecent term..."

Wow! Arguing that anyone using the term "denier" is a "lowlife", is guilty of using ad hominem, and therefore has a weak argument. The hypocrisy in this statement is extreme.

By Other Mike (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Dave Andrews @ 68

Stop wriggling

Dave Andrews @ 69

Exactly the reason why I want to make sure you are using the O/P of my taxpayers money properly.

So stop hiding, wriggling, etc and hand over your details. I want to get that FOI in quicksmart, as the first in a production line process.

Can one of the denialiti trolling around on this blog please tell The planet has been cooling since 1998 @ 65 that the 1998 cooling meme is well deaded and can't be used to fool people any more (why d'you think McClean et al wrote their paper, they must have known that meme was going to be shot down by the evidence).

Money spent on climate change research has not really been wasted, because it will help us detect imminent global cooling as it happens.

el gordo, all your posts are plain out stupid.

El Gordo, did you every state when you expect this significant global cooling to happen?

*Ever. D'oh.

Looks like since the great hope McinTyres was called up to the plate with his magnum opus, and then blew it, it's back to the good ol' standbys for the denialati.

Climate? What's a climate? And all variations therof.

DBeckerMich, Ph.D. @ 55

"I should also note that anyone who uses the word "denier" in this context is a low life; the implicit ad hominem argument underlying the use of this indecent term flows from the weakness of the underlying argument."

Aww...you don't like 'deniosaur', either, then?

How about 'cliar'? That's firmly fact-based by now...

->Zibethicus<-, certified low life

By Zibethicus (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

As a member of the Denialati I believe the world is cooling, even though the satellites tell us differently.

Before you scream Kruger-Dunning, we will eventually be buying sulphate particulate credits.

Before you scream Kruger-Dunning

As usual, you have it arse about ...

Your other name is Poe right?

By Fran Barlow (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"As a member of the Denialati I believe the world is cooling, even though the satellites tell us differently."

The ground instrumentation says otherwise too. The volume of sea ice says otherwise as well, as does the world's glaciers, and so on. At least you admit you're in denial. That's the first step in getting help for your problem. Is there a reason you think your feelings trump facts?

By Robert Murphy (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

>Is there a reason you think your feelings trump facts?

Yes, Robert. He's in denial. Circular I know, but it'll have to do.

"Sea ice is about average."

I said the volume and not extent of sea ice for a reason. Volume is what's important. Try to keep up! :)

By Robert Murphy (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Last time I checked, all 50 glaciers in New Zealand are growing and I have a long list of others around the world if you want to see.

el gordo, all your posts are plain out stupid.

Or brilliant. He sure keeps y'all busy, gotta admit that, no?

Oh criminy El Gords, you even fail at cherry picking. It took me two minutes to find out that, for example, New Zealand's Tasman Glacier is rapidly retreating. This is not offered as evidence of climate change one way or the other, only that El Gordo is wrong. Again.

So, you have a list of advancing glaciers. Good for you. Do you also, for the sake of balance, have a list of retreating glaciers? Or a handy chart of cumulative mass balance from the World Glacier Monitoring Service?

Sea Ice: ok, it's my fault. I predicted that the artic sea ice had reached its maxiumum extent after the first week in March; and look what happened. BTW I'm also a Cubs Fan(Chicago baseball team that hasn't won the series since 1908). My dad swears they lose because I watch their games. He's probably right. I think it has something to do with the Hymenberg Principle. You know, watching something affects it like how long it takes a kettle to boil.

At any rate, the maximum artic sea ice aerial extent is very subject to which way the wind blows (not as much the minimum, esp. the extreme minimums we've been seeing recently). As soon as that big chunk of floating mush breaks loose off Alaska (the one area that is seeing above average extent), the aerial extent will drop like a rock.

Check out Cryosphere today for a better look at conditions other than total extent.

This is a seasonal factor, the high level of short-wave radiation in the summer months is responsible for the fast pace of glacier melt.

>Wrong. More of them are in the 1930s.

Ahahahahaha!

Ha!

Hahaha!

Someone has been reading Plimer's book*. And believing it. How hilarious is that? Look, 1934 was a little warmer than 1998 for the USA only. Globally the last 10 years have been much warmer than the 1930s.

I know it's difficult for some people to grasp, but the USA â  the whole world.

*Or some other equally unreliable source.

Which is why 9 of the 10 warmest years on record all date after 1998. Thanks for playing anyway.

Wrong. More of them are in the 1930s.

That's easy enough to check, and it appears that you are the one who is wrong. Not just slightly, but wildly wrong. Not a single year in the 1930s was warmer than any year since 1998.

"Wrong. More of them are in the 1930s."

Nonsense. None of the years from the 1930's is warmer than *any* year in the last few decades. You're thinking of US temps, which only describe 2% of the Earth's surface. All ten of the warmest years on record globally have been from 1998 on, and are roughly about a half a degree C above any year from the 1930's. No wonder you like McIntyre's website; you're used to sloppy arguments being applauded. Welcome to the real world.

By Robert Murphy (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Sea ice volume, average thickness and multi-year ice cover are all on significant declining trends, despite occasional small rises from year to year.

Yes, winds certainly affect it...but winds affect it much more strongly if the ice is thin and multi-year ice less common.

And note that feet on the ... er, ice ... have discovered a form of ice that shows up on remote sensors like known forms, but is much less substantial than they are. This could mean remote measurements are currently biased too high :-(

I'm sure we covered this a couple of weeks ago, but the goldfish keep orbiting.

By Lotharsson (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

I'm almost convinced that Fatso is a Poe, spouting the silliest of the Denialati tripe, in order that the rest of us demonstrate how easily such nonsense is refuted.

Most of the time his denialist memes are so flimsy that one does not even need to hit the primary literature (or wander to one's local university library if one is not academically-connected). The answers are [easy to find using the electronic smart-arse](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Glacier_Mass_Balance…)...

Interestingly, where one would expect glacier mass to increase, as warming increases precipitation more than it increases melting (after all, many places around the planet that are warming are still colder than the melting point of ice), one observes such mass accumulation. These regions are minor in comparison to those demonstrating mass loss though, and New Zealand doesn't seem to be one of the former...

By Bernard J. (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

The question is asked:

What is the optimal temperature of the planet?

The answer, of course, depends on your value system. If you are a penguin, you'd probably want rather cold temperatures. If you live in a coastal delta or a coral atoll, you'd definitely consider any increase in temperature to be very, very bad; on the other hand, if you own a lot of real estate positioned just just a bit higher such land, then you would prefer increases in temperature, because they would increase the value of your land by making it beachfront property. If you live in the tropics at an altitude greater than 2 meters, you really don't care. If you live in the far north, you probably don't want to see any warming, because the destruction of the permafrost will make all your existing buildings unstable.

There will be winners and losers from climate change. But the overall result for most of humanity is that increases in temperature will diminish global GDP by about 3% by the year 2100. That in turn should pretty well cancel any growth.

By Erasmussimo (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

>That's weather not climate. Oh, wait...you're a Warmista...It's okay then.

Yep. And you're a moronic troll. Glad we understand each other.

I said,
"Globally the last 10 years have been much warmer than the 1930s."
McIntyre's Myrmidon said,
"That's weather not climate. Oh, wait...you're a Warmista...It's okay then."

It's a fact - no year in the 1930's was even close to being as warm as any year in the last few decades. You said that more years in the 1930's were warmer than those in the last 10 years. That's simply nonsense. Now you are flailing away with gibberish about climate vs weather. You made the claim about the 1930's having more years in the top ten than the last ten years do. Put up or shut up. Which years in the 1930's were they, and show your evidence.
PS: US temps are not global temps.

By Robert Murphy (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

@"The Planet Has Been Cooling Since 1998" (feel free to change that title to reflect reality any time):

What is the optimal temperature of the planet?

There are a host of reasons why this question is - to put it politely - redundant. The planet has no universal optimal temperature. Optimal for what particular species or ecosystem? Optimal for which of Earth's many human communities? Aside from which, it's the rate of divergence from a temperature we are already adapted to that is the issue, it's not a question (yet, and hopefully not for a long time in the future) of absolute temperatures.

BJ

Just wanted to get the conversation back to climate and away from political science.

What is the optimal temperature of the planet?

Posted by: The Planet Has Been Cooling Since 1998 | April 2, 2010 8:18 PM

This, by the way, is Global Warming is a Scam, also long banned at Pharyngula (for insipidity). One of the most tedious trolls ever to darken the face of the internet. He hasn't been here before?

I recommend termination with extreme prejudice.

re: Optimal temperatures
Try another answer:

There is a narrow band of temperatures for the last 2000 years, and an even narrower band for the last 500, when most of the infrastructure for current human civilization has been built. It assumes rainfall patterns, river flows, plant and animal breeding, and sea level, and those things help determine where people live. It's not that that any temperature is optimal, it's that pour infrastructure and agriculture are built assuming a big thermostat.

Departing very far in *either* direction is going to be very expensive for human civilization, especially those countries blessed with long low coastlines (which tend to help countries be rich, given efficient water transport).
Put another way: the USA should hate AGW, but Russia has to love it: they might eventually lose St. Petersburg, but they generally don't have a high percentage of people on the coast, and less ice in the Arctic is great for them.

Sea-level rise takes a while, but moving rainfall from places already dry to places already wet shows up much earlier. Most developed-world people aren't farmers or they would worry a lot more about this.

By John Mashey (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Well, Bruce, many denialists are dinosaurs.

From the report:

"In the context of the sharing of data and methodologies, we consider that Professor Jonesâs actions were in line with common practice in the climate science community.[hiding data] It is not standard practice in climate science to publish the raw data and the computer code in academic papers. However, climate science is a matter of great importance and the quality of the science should be irreproachable. We therefore consider that climate scientists should take steps to make available all the data that support their work (including raw data) and full methodological workings (including the computer codes). Had both been available, many of the problems at UEA could have been avoided."

Sounds like peer reviewed data without the peers.... "It is not standard practice in climate science to publish the raw data and the computer code in academic papers".....

Climate 'science' is a hoax.

By Only Computer … (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

BTW none of Jones' work is repeatable [as he hides his data because his dog chewed it up], therefore, if it is not repeatable by independent review, it is not science.

Please change to 'Jones found to have hidden data, denialists vindicated.'

By Only Computer … (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

The denier above, who if he actually has a phd has it in marketing and baraminology from the back of a box of Cheerios, wants us to call him names, instead of using the accurate term denier.

Well, yes, we do believe he's also LYING, but the denier part is the most obvious and provable.

As for us being low lives, we're the ones that have consistently taken the high road. And we'll stay on that road while the Morlocks sharpen their pieces of metal and glower through the darkness at us.

By Marion Delgado (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

@108 A lot of deniers are also neo-cons so how about the term 'denio-con'?

By Think Big (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

@109,119. Actually, since "climategate" there has been an avalanche of raw data and computer code released. Well, a lot of it was already on the web anyway but nothing exists in denialiati-world unless it is placed 2 inches under their nose, and even then they sometimes need instructions on how to find it (makes me wonder how they get to the loo sometimes).

We are all waiting patiently - very patiently indeed - for the comprehensive data analyses to come churning out from climate sceptics.

Any day now.......yep.......it'll be here soon......(sound of crickets chirping, leaves rustling).

By Other Mike (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Sorry, that was aimed at 109,110 obviously. "Only computer geeks rely on computer models".

Oh by the way, I like your pseudonym. Flown in a plane recently? There is a reason I ask that question, which the more astute people on this blog will fully understand. I don't want to go through how things like airliners and a myriad of other things are designed and their predicted properties figured out.

By Other Mike (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Mk,y hxrs hv bn cght t hdng dt, s chll t!

By Only Computer … (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

'No other branch of science is as politically charged. A religious war is raging between alarmists and skeptics, and it threatens to consume levelheaded climatologists. But it is a critical conflict, because it revolves around something as massive as the total restructuring of industrial society, a venture that will cost trillions of euros. Powerful economic interests and unshakeable fundamental beliefs come into play.'

Spiegel Online

The claim that Jones' work is not repeatable I presume refers to the CRU / Hadley temperature time series. This claim is quite weird.

If you compare UAH to Hadley temperature timeseries you will notice that their trends are quite similar. As well if you compare the temperatures for January and February for this year you will find that UAH values are: 0.613 and 0.720 while the CRU / Hadley values are: 0.495 and 0.460. Does this mean that Spencer and Christie are also involved in the Grand Conspiracy? (I expect that everyone who comes to this blog know that Spencer and Christie are "skeptics".)

The fact that CRU / Hadley is just one of five termperature groups that come up with similar results seems to make clear that Jones' results are quite repeatable.

Shorter Only Computer Geeks rely on computer models:

Phil Jones hid data! Phil Jones hid data! Phil Jones hid data! And even if Phil Jones didn't hide data, he would've analysed the data to form, Heaven forbid, computer models, so whether or not he hid data, he's still wrong.

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Computer Geek,
Your comment "repeating a hoax 5 times doesn't make it science" shows how deeply you are into delusion.

Let me get this clear, you seem to be saying that all of the five groups developing temperature timeseries are hoaxing the climate data. Two of the groups use satelites to determine global temperatures and three of them use surface measurement. So the evidence of warming comes from two quite different methods. Your claim that these groups are involved in a hoax includes Spencer and Christie, who are two of the very small number of "skeptics" who are actively researching.

I am sure Spencer and Christie they would be very interested in that claim. Please go over the Spencer's site (http://www.drroyspencer.com/) and tell him that, and then come back here and inform us of his reply.

The comment that I was replying to from Computer Geek, seems to have been corrupted. The statement "repeating a hoax 5 times doesn't make it science" was in the comment before it became corrupted.

Read what you quoted yourself, Computer Geeks.

"It is not standard practice in climate science to publish the raw data and the computer code in academic papers."

No it isn't. It never has been. It still isn't. Publishing the raw data with the papers is not standard practice in many (most in fact, I think) areas of science. The data is held by the people who did the research. To get it and check it, you either ask them nicely for it, or you go to their website where you often find it anyway.

Now that it actually is available to anyone, which part of "We are all waiting patiently - very patiently indeed - for the comprehensive data analyses to come churning out from climate sceptics" did you not understand?

By Other Mike (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Censoring dissenters wont make you fraudulent commies bastards right, obviously the truth hurts doesn't it hoaxers? I rest my case and am out of here.

By Only Computer … (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

Shorter Only Computer Geeks rely on computer models:

Phil Jones hid data! Phil Jones hid data! PHIL JONES HID DATA! PHIL JONES HID DATA!!! PHIL JONES HID DATA!!!!!! I'M SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS, SO I'M OBVIOUSLY TELLING THE TROOF!!! THE TROOF!!! AND YOU HATE THE TROOF!!!! THE TROOF!!!

[Steve S](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/04/phil_jones_vindicated.php#comme…).

Computer Creep's comments were disemvowelled rather than becoming corrrupted. Tim Lambert has a high patience threshold for trolls, but that one is plain ga-ga in the alfoil-hat conspiracy-under-the-bed mould, and I'd say that Tim decided enough was enough.

Although having said that, Computer Creep's comments were intellectually corrupt from the first key-stroke, so in a manner of speaking you were correct anyway...

By Bernard J. (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

112 Think Big,

Denialists are usually idiots, so they are denidiots.

By TrueSceptic (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

> you fraudulent commies bastards right

There's another common trait among the denialati - good, old-fashioned McCarthyism.

Keep checking under the bed, guys...

129: "Denialists are usually idiots, so they are denidiots."

Denidiots and, all too often, cliars too...

By Zibethicus (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

el gordo, the Spiegel article is ridiculously bad researched. It's an assembly of talking points with a von Storch garnish.

By Chris From Europe (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

[Dave R](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/04/phil_jones_vindicated.php#comme…).

You can add [the comment](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/02/bad_news_sea_level_rise_may_be…) from the "Bad news: sea level rise may be worse than we thought" thread to the list.

This is a particularly stupid and learning-recalcitrant troll. He has had his nose repeatedly rubbed in his ignorance, but he continues to shit in the same place. Even a puppy learns from his mistakes - although the nose-rubbing technique is not the way to go... Unfortunately, nothing works with this Denialatus.

Obviously, he's only here to push his own bee-in-bonnet deception. Shame that it hasn't worked.

0 out of 10, pygmy troll. Absolute fail. Do not pass go, do not collect even one penny.

And as this seems to be the week for nacent words, suck on this - tloosser.

By Bernard J. (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

#96 (Bernard J)

I'm almost convinced that Fatso is a Poe, spouting the silliest of the Denialati tripe, in order that the rest of us demonstrate how easily such nonsense is refuted.

I've been convinced of that for quite some time, which is why I normally ignore his comments. He's like comedy performance art, whether intentional or not.

el gordo, this statement:

But it is a critical conflict, because it revolves around something as massive as the total restructuring of industrial society, a venture that will cost trillions of euros.

is likely true (on a global scale) - but not necessarily in the way that Der Spiegel wants you to focus on.

If we screw up the environment and our ecosystem - i.e. if we move them away from the normal parameters of variation and degrade the relatively reliable natural services against which we have optimised our industrial societies over the last several hundred years - then it will likely prove f**king expensive to restructure society to try and accomodate. And if it's an outcome towards the bad end of the possibility scale, then that cost will not only be measured in money but in lives.

Changing from a cheap-carbon-based economy to one that is less likely to violate the assumptions we have built into the structure of our societies may prove to be a bargain in comparison.

By Lotharsson (not verified) on 03 Apr 2010 #permalink

Monbiot saying sorry would go a long way to rebuilding his credibility. Did CRU, UEA and Phil Jones make a total mess of things? Yes. Did Phil Jones really deserve Monbiot's wish to see him sacked? No.
And I notice that the spurious FOI requests from crackpots and reasonable requests interested in government affairs are treated in the same way by Monbiot, when he must know that they very different. This looks like a very small walkback indeed. On the other hand, Fred Pearce seems to have decided that being hostile is at least consistant, if wrong.

Monbiot writes about Simon Lewis and the ST - where is the mention of Deltoid? David Adams should have a word...

Bud & Mike B (136,137): I was one of those who, early on, lined up (at deltoid and in private email) behind Monbiot's call for Jones's resignation. Now, having familiarised myself a little more with the mails and having seen the wash-up, I regret that I did. It is amusing to me that Monbiot's column (Bud's link) itself links to a column (Easterbrook) and comment, much of which is critical of Monbiot himself. While I retain respect for George, and still think he wiped the floor with Plimer, I cannot help thinking now that he went too far in calling for Jones's resignation.

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

> I cannot help thinking now that he went too far in calling for Jones's resignation.

Because, as a Journalist, George was heavily invested in FOIA and any perception that either it should or could be avoided was like talking about paedophiles to the dad of a 5 year old girl.

Knee-jerk city.

He has had time to view the facts and recanted the calls to get Jones sacked, but hasn't yet said that he over-reacted himself.

However, I don't expect George to be a saint, nor to be right 100% of the time.

I do expect him to own up to his own mistakes and take responsibility. He's a grown up now.

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink

"Th fct tht CR / Hdl s jst n f fv trmprtr grps tht cm p wth smlr rslts sms t mk clr tht Jns' rslts r qt rptbl." rptng hx tms dsn't mk t scnc. Rd th rprt stv; "t s nt stndrd prctc n clmt scnc t pblsh th rw dt nd th cmptr cd n cdmc pprs." Clmt scntsts r nt scntsts th r hxrs, f th hd thr dt t s nt scnc. Pls chng th ttl t dnlsts vndctd.

By Computer Geeks… (not verified) on 02 Apr 2010 #permalink