Plastic Surgery Bimbo attacks Oklahoma State veterinary school

Damn...lots of 'tards out there, especially the tard in the program and the HSUS guy. It's a really crappy situation, but the little guys and gals were getting put down anyway, might as well offer some learning so that the students can better serve other animals.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

Rage on Abbie, Rage on.

Maybe it would be better if the students practiced doing helpful surgeries for free on animals whose owners otherwise couldn't afford to have them done. Of course this assumes that the students start off being able to do more good than harm and perhaps that is a mistaken assumption. Also, some valuable lessons probably don't turn up in clinical practice very often.

Anyway, these people (PETA et al.) never seem to consider that their need to misrepresent the situation in order to gain support for their views may mean that their views are poorly supported.

Vet schools hurt animals so if we eliminate vet schools all the animals will be well.

Surgeons cut into live humans so they are obviously vivisectionists.

Maybe she would like the students to learn by operating on her little Fluffy.

Let's revel in ignorance and praise stupidity.

The machine stops.

It's incredibly sad to me that "animal rights activist" almost always means "self righteous, ironic douche." It leaves those of us who labor against dog fighting and other such blatant abuses -- but not against sad but necessary research -- with little to call ourselves.

You see this weird disconnect with a lot of crazy people

Vets just want to torture animals
Doctors just want to poision people
Scientists just want to reinforce dogma

I sometimes wonder if it's all just projection and PETA actually enjoys killing those animals.

Doing experiments on animals and practising operative procedures is hard but often necessary, (I've done the first though not the second). But multiple anaesthesia and multiple procedures on the same animal is unusual and it's certainly not good practice in Europe.
So this woman may for once have a point - (yes, I know I'll be popular for that. I have also spent much wasted time arguing with vegetarian anti-vivisectionists).

The ultimate goal of PETA and HSUS is no more pets, no more domestic animals, no more human/animal interaction of any kind. Extinction for all and for all, a good not.

Why don't vet students learn the same way "human" doctors learn?

A lay person's understanding of how doctors learn is that they practice on cadavers, assist/shadow doctors in clinics, gradually learning by watching then by doing small things, and working their way up.

Certainly human doctors don't do unnecessary surgery on humans just for practice. Why can't vet schools do the same thing?

There are plenty of shelters that euthanize abandoned animals. It seems like those cadavers would be a good starting point for practicing surgery.

I know the vet school near where I grew up had an almost free clinic staffed by students under the watchful eye of qualified vets. I know because after our dog was hit by a car, that was the only place my parents could afford to take him for reconstructive surgery. And he lived a good long life afterwards, so I know they did good work.

When we were poor students, my wife went to the local dental college to get her wisdom teeth removed by students, again under supervision.

So we know there is a better supply of euthanized animals from shelters. And we can assume, I think, that there is a market for cheap/free vet care done by students under supervision. Wouldn't that make more sense than purchasing animals just to do surgeries on them and then put them down?

Maybe someone with more intimate knowledge of med school and vet school could explain why med school techniques wouldn't be applicable to vet schools.

Hi Bob, we don't use cadavers these days in med schools in the UK - mind you nor do the students seem to know much anatomy!
On the other hand, especially with experimental surgical techniques, I'd much rather a new procedure was practiced in an animal first than in my relative or me - on the strict condition it's done as humanely as possible. That doesn't mean training students needs to involve vivisection - it doesn't here at all for vets, I think, in fact there are plenty of reasonable substitute models for med and vet students to learn on - and I'm sure malpractice insurance for practicing vets isn't quite the same, even in the US!

A Ultra Red Republican and PETA activist in one? How's that possible?

I am curious as to why it is so inappropriate for someone to decide that they are unhappy with cruel procedures (perceived or real) and then withhold funds from the university at which they take place.

For the greater good - is that really the road you want to go down?

Why should they not use their funds are leverage? Because you disagree with them?

If so, you don't actually directly address any of the alleged procedures except to say:

It sucks.

Then you conflate enforced euthanasia with the practices at the university (which I assume are followed by euthanasia) confusing the point completely.

We know the animals will die, yes.

But the question is "are these practices before their deaths acceptable or necessary?"

They may well be sufficient in terms of training prospective students but they certainly aren't required or normative.

How do you know that they are?

Do you have intimate knowledge of this faculties procedures?

Presumably different schools practice differently otherwise the donor would abstain from all donations to colleges with vet schools (not the case).

You then engage in attacks that are irrelevant.

I wonder if Maddy knows how many of the plastic surgeons who messed up her face practiced on animals? I wonder if she knows every batch of Botox is tested on animals?

FUCK YOU

Educate yourself on the history of animal testing/experimentation. Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights#18th_century:_The_centrality…

There have been clear abuses in the past and there will be clear abuses in the future.

You donât seem concerned with abuse except to deny that it is a legitimate issue.

If you are so sure that there is no unnecessary suffering in the procedures suggested at by the donor then provide EVIDENCE.

I would demand evidence before making a decision with my money.

If there is evidence that the suffering described is necessary, or not taking place, then I am sure that upon receipt of it the donor will change their mind and the university will attempt to make this case, or change practices or forgo the donation.

*as leverage? [not are leverage]

I apologise if the tone of my post was a bit much. I don't think the issue is as a black and white as it has been portrayed however.

You don't use cadavers in med school?!!

The fuck?!!

Remind me never to get ill in Britain again.

For crying out loud, cprs, Bob, Pete Rooke, you could try reading the linked articles.

"Michael Lorenz, dean of the OSU Center for Veter-inary Health Sciences, issued a statement...âNo more than two surgeries are performed on any dog,â he said in the statement. âTerminal dog surgeries are used at the majority of the United States veterinary colleges.â...the first surgery usually is to spay or neuter the animals, which receive the best of care during the procedure.

âWe go above and beyond as far as pain management,â Watkins said. If a second surgery is performed on the animal it is an âabdominal exploratory,â She said the animal is put under for the second surgery and then humanely euthanized while it still is asleep."

So basically the animal gets neutered (don't they do that at US shelters anyway?) and the next op isn't really any different from typical euthanasia from the animal's POV. It's not comparable to a human situation - we don't have vast numbers of humans being euthanised every day, even if you did (bizarrely) want to equate the two morally. I should imagine that vets learn this way because it's faster and cheaper than learning just on cadavers and by observation. Vets have more to learn than MDs in a lot of ways, and there aren't as many of them so you don't have the opportunity for the sort of training structure that surgeons have.

Oh and Pete Rooke, people are entitled to send their money where they want. To then kick up a fuss about withdrawing it from somewhere it never went in the first place is idiotic (see Bonus 1). To do so knowing that it will put researchers lives and property at risk is evil.

When I went through this in veterinary school (nearly 20 years ago now.) we took it very seriously, and 3-4 students learned surgery skills and anesthesia on each animal to minimize the number of animals needed. One classmate seemed to be taking the whole thing much to casually and was taken out of the room by one of the professors. When they returned, the casual attitude was definitely gone. We did learn basic techniques on non-animal models or cadavers, but your first experience with a living, breathing, BLEEDING body is very important. Also, many veterinarians do not do residencies, etc like MD's do, and are expected to have basic surgical skills on the day they graduate.

Actually, I'm surprised that they buy dogs; usually such "terminal surgeries" are supplied from abandoned pets scheduled for euthanasia.

MattK: Bad idea. In particular, the results of a botched surgery are rarely live/die, but "quick, uneventful recovery" vs. "slow, painful, difficult recovery." Now, take such a pet owner who's told that the student contaminated the field and the animal might have a nsaty infection, which will lead to peritonitis, high fever, dehiscence, and all that nasty stuff, but we don't even know yet, and should we wake it up?

Remembering that this is a poor owner who probably can't afford great care. Talk about russian roulette.

I'd also like to point out that a non-trivial number of such dogs do wake up from surgery and are smuggled into dorm rooms... vet student care a lot about their patients; if they didn't, they'd have gone into human medicine for the money.

@Charlotte: All I asked was how the vet and med school training are similar and how they are different. I tried very, very hard to leave the moral issues out of my question. I do think it is a question that is important to the debate. If a system of learning that has taught surgeons some of the incredible they can do, why can't vets use a similar system?

It is interesting to learn that in the UK they don't practice on cadavers. I'm surprised by that. I plan on letting my body be used for medical study when I die. If a doctor can learn a surgical technique on my corpse, more power to them. I won't need it any more. How do UK surgeons get some of the basic practice before they start on humans?

@MattK: You make an important point. I was very little when our family dog was hit. I imagine it would have cost my parents thousands of dollars they didn't have(in the early '70's) if they hadn't had the low cost vet college just 20 miles away. They definitely would have had to put Pete down if it hadn't been for those vet students. If something had happened to Pete that would have put him in permanent pain, they would have put him to sleep rather than put him through that. So the end result would have been the same. If they hadn't had tried to save him, he would have died. If the attempt failed, he would have died.

I wish those students could have seen how well he was doing 10 years later when I was old enough to play with him.

Yes, when necessary, I would rather have a technique practiced on an animal than a human. All I ask is that the decision to do that be made intelligently and rationally, not done just out of habit or because it is the way it has always been done.

I wonder how much difference there is when performing surgery on different species. I would imagine not much. We're all built on pretty much the same body plan. I would think that a vet who could perform a competent surgery on a cat could do so on a dog or a guinea pig or an elephant.

Diagnosis would be a completely different matter, I would guess. Human doctors only have to know diseases for one species. Imagine the different diseases and even the different symptoms for the same disease from species to species! Yikes!

You are right! Why not to speak 25000 of plantigrades which populate the Arctic and who burn themselves legs on an end of ice further to ' climatic warming '? The small white bears of Al Gore.

@Humorix:

Dude, I want some of what you're smoking...

WHAARGARBL!?

Hi Charlotte, how do you know we haven't read the posts? Even your own quotes from them confirm multiple (double usually) surgery is being done on one animal!

It's a pity Lorenz isn't speaking, though I well know how intimidating animal activists/terrorists can get - our animal house is as highly secured as a decent prison - and I don't think there's anything more than rabbits, rats and mice there!

Ironically this ferocity is usually motivated by evolutionary premises, albeit highly particular ones to the extremists.

jon-- Its wackjob week at ERV. William Wallace, a new guy whos like the British John Kwok, Rooke, WHAARGARBL up there, two HIV Deniers...

Full moon or something.

Damnit Rookie, go be stupid somewhere else.

I am curious as to why it is so inappropriate for someone to decide that they are unhappy with cruel procedures (perceived or real) and then withhold funds from the university at which they take place.

Try reading for comprehension next time. There was no money going to the Vet school in the first place. This was a pure publicity stunt.

@ERV:

Oh well...at least they're somewhat amusing I guess.

@cprs#21:

Even your own quotes from them confirm multiple (double usually) surgery is being done on one animal!

I read it as single surgery with occasional double for an abdominal exploratory (during the euthenization). So in most cases (via charlotte's quote)the surgery is singular, not multiple.

Ironically this ferocity is usually motivated by evolutionary premises, albeit highly particular ones to the extremists.

LOL WUT?

I see the Rookie has found a new home....

@ 9,

Hi Bob, we don't use cadavers these days in med schools in the UK - mind you nor do the students seem to know much anatomy!
On the other hand, especially with experimental surgical techniques, I'd much rather a new procedure was practiced in an animal first than in my relative or me - on the strict condition it's done as humanely as possible

I dont quite see how you are meant to learn anatomy without cadavers,personally,but then,a lot of the young doctors,esp from the UK,seem rather clueless about a lot of the basic stuff.

As to the learning of surgical procedures etc,the advanced trauma life support courses(ATLS) routinely use intubated/sedated dogs for doctors to practice chest drains and similar procedures on,at least here in Australia.

In my opinion the largest threat for California are cataclysms and ecological catastrophes. Not important is how many money we have because one tragedy can us take all.

jon-- Its wackjob week at ERV. William Wallace, a new guy whos like the British John Kwok, Rooke, WHAARGARBL up there, two HIV Deniers...

Full moon or something.

Abbie,

John Kwok was your friend, not mine. I identified him early on as a wack job, btw.

And you're the one cursing up a storm like a raving lunatic.

Sincerely,

WW

Also, Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/151727) says Pickens is an environmental wackjob, and his new best friends are Democrats, including Al Gore, Bill Clinton, and Harry Reid. What do you expect from an environmental wack job, anyway?

Oh fuck. Rooke is here now?

T. Boone Pickens. Think swiftboating.

...we don't use cadavers these days in med schools in the UK...

My understanding is that most of them still use at least a mix of professionally dissected cadavers and prosection.

A move away from whole-body dissection seems to reflect the change in emphasis towards producing generalists during initial training, and then highly specialised practiotioners through post-graduate training. There is much greater use of advanced imaging techniques as learning and diagnostic tools. There is much less need for a doctor to be able to dissect an entire body.

To the author: and what makes you think that âlocal humane societies, shelters, and vets are doing what they can to curb pet over-populationâ? What do you really know about it? It is YOU (the author) who seems to be totally oblivious to what really goes on with EVERY single organization which is controlled by or is in cahoots with AVMA. Shame on you! Before opening your mouth on this subject next time, study legislature, my friend. Take a good look at many recent bills on that very subject that did not pass (e.g. Bills in WA State (and in other states) people lobbied to âcurbâ pet overpopulation only to have local VMAs blocked those bills from their passage. Naïve, naïve, naïve⦠to say the list (just donât want to be too harsh on you right now). As far as your other ânonsenseâ about whatâs wrong with pulling an animal out of shelter to experiment on that animal in teaching hospitalsâ¦. How about we experiment on you? You most certainly would benefit from a brain alteration procedure.

It is an interesting little bag of snakes in science and personal ethics isnât it? I find myself one of those people who is more emotionally overwhelmed by the A.S.P.C.A. commercials depicting horrifying conditions in animal shelters than I am the huge pleading human eyes in the Feed the Children Crusadeâs sponsorship drives. The affective response is powerful and in the case of the puppies, the beastie that has the genetic expression that gets humans to hand out scraps, lives to make more puppies.

Are you being manipulated if you know you are being manipulated?

Does it really matter if the Boston Terrier is getting half of your baked potato anyway despite the starving children?

PETA euthanizes the dogs and cats it purports to rescue, effectively rendering their lives painful complete wastes when they could have saved hundreds of other dogs by assisting a human in developing the surgical skills to effect such salvation.

I find that both unethical and morally bankrupt.

I also find myself at odds with a stance that has to stand at the far end of the continuum in order to find moral high ground. Torturing fluffy bunnies for repetitive quality control in the manufacture of Bratz brand pre-teen cosmetics or feeding hens Portland Cement and arsenic to reduce the materials cost profile in a new line of microwavable Lumberjack Hearty Hambeast Eggy Breakfast Burritos are bad things and I think we can all get behind âPatchouli Chickâ and âWhite Guy with Dread Locksâ on those.

When we genetically engineer pigs for human heart valve replacement I tend to side with the guys in the lab coats.

When you start talking about food costs and single moms working their butts off to max out the protein starches and sugars as rapidly as possible so that they will have a spare moment to help their kids with math homework, my eye becomes a little less jaundiced when regarding KFC and Mc Donalds and industrial animal husbandry.

The more I talk to medical researchers and agricultural researchers and the people at the other end (those waiting for medical treatments and sending the kids to bed hungry at the end of the month) the more I see the objections to our treatment of animals as a sort of boutique ethical stance.

I am coming to resent certain ethical stances as not being ethical decisions at all but rather the latest incarnation of conspicuous consumption.

I have a friend who recently adopted an Ethiopian baby, she lives, an almost entirely green, urban lifestyle and is a vegan firebrand who at the drop of a hat will deliver a monograph on the moral equivalency of killing a chicken or a toddler. Every aspect of her existence is labeled cruelty free, free trade, eco-friendly, recycled. diverse and organic. It is also an outrageous expense. It is insane how much her day to day life costs. She could put a child through college just for what she spends in fees on her âgreen Co-opâ in Manhattan every year. How can she afford it? She is an executive efficiency consultant for among others........ The Halliburton Corporation and its subsidiaries.

I think Mrs. Pickens is just expressing an expensive aesthetic and exercising her sense of her own power far more than she is expressing an ethical, moral or practical position.

So yea Iâm with Abbie on this one .......Maddy can go fuck herself.

@Judy
I work for the HSUS and my coworkers and I bring our dogs to work everyday. Not to mention, The HSUS has published a public how-to manual, "Dogs at Work," encouraging other companies to provide this opportunity as well.

http://www.humanesociety.org

What do you really know about it?

I work/volunteer/donate to the OKC animal shelter and local no-kill and Humane Society shelters (THE Humane Society, not HSUS swindlers). My family has been rescuing dogs and cats as far back as I can remember. Sometimes we just 'trap' local feral cats, bring them into the vet to get fixed, and let them go again-- Never had a problem with vets doing this for a discounted rate (or donated).

And apparently animal rights/animal liberation psychos have absolutely no difficulty using medical products and procedures tested on animals. Why are you suggesting someone test putative therapies on me? Im not the hypocrite.

Your villains arent villains.

Your heroes arent heroes.

Caroline-- It appears DI 'fellows' and HSUS 'workers' just Google themselves all day... What do those two things have in common... hmmm... And who the hell are you responding to?

Alex opined in his self serving little Jâaccuse.......

~âIt is YOU (the author) who seems to be totally oblivious to what really goes on with EVERY single organization which is controlled by or is in cahoots with AVMA.â~

Wonderful. I love people who derive every bit of their grasp of a topic from GoVeg.com and its subsidiary site AMVAhurtsanimals.com.

I find in addition to a complete grasp of a complex ethical issue involving the redefinition of utilitarian calculations to encompass all life with a fully developed limbic system on the planet I also answer the burning questions of âWho won the Sexiest Vegetarian Next Door Competition?â and âWhat does Alicia Silverstone think?â

Alex you are either an intellectual bantam weight or a twelve year old.

~âAs far as your other ânonsenseâ about whatâs wrong with pulling an animal out of shelter to experiment on that animal in teaching hospitalsâ¦. How about we experiment on you? You most certainly would benefit from a brain alteration procedure.â~

Human beings are experimented on all the time. It is usually the case that the subjects of such experimentation are conscious of their own impending death or in dire economic straights. How exactly are they volunteers. How are people who agree to have tissues harvested in the course of surgery for study cultures at teaching hospitals in order to avail themselves of a treatment they could not otherwise afford any different (other than the psychological agony of anticipating what will be done to them) .

The unfortunate side effect of mortal life is pain and dying and an ethical perspective involves minimizing those side effects within practical limits. Since you see no limit I suggest you do the right thing. Please consume 10 drugs pending FDA approval at the animal testing stage and if you survive, vivisect yourself on film at once for the edification of anatomists everywhere. It is my hope that your example will be followed by the like minded.

Rock on little snowflake.

Abbie, if I had to guess I'd say part of the reason the weirdos are out in force is that it's Crazy People Against Progress Week (Free the Lab Animals Week). My lab has warned me 4 times to be super alert this week. Got to remember to pack my invisibility cloak, mace and righteous indignation.

And seriously, picking on the vet school? They do hard work, keep our food supply safe (ish), take care of our pets and working animals, working with more species than anyone. And last I checked, there's not mountains of money to be made in vet practice. Crazy lady, please go adopt some cattle and leave these good people alone!

OSWho? Stoolwater?

On a related note, was able to stop my wife from donating to HSUS this past weekend. She wondered exactly why HSUS could call themselves a "Humane Society" without any humane shelter connections. My reply: A lot of people name their kids Jesus, but I doubt any of them walk on water.

Anyways, I got her to divert the funds to our local human shelter instead.

Ugh I looked that crap up, in fact Thursday is âWorld Lab Animal Dayâ

It is also âMeat is not Green Weekâ over at La La Land.

It is also National Food Month including... National Grilled Cheese Month, National Soft Pretzel Month........And....... National Volunteer Week, National Medical Laboratory Professionals Week, Week of the Young Child, Sky Awareness Week, and National Coin Week......and...... National Bake Week, National Egg Salad Week.

Today 4/20: is National Pot Smoking Day, National Pineapple Upside-Down Cake Day, Lima Bean Respect Day, Patriots' Day, The anniversary of the death of Señor Wences, the feast of Saint Theotimus The Martyr and Adolf Hitlerâs birthday.

Pick your cause for celebration. I love egg salad.

I don't think there is anything wrong with National Medical Laboratory Professionals Week.

@Prometheus:

âMeat is not Green Weekâ

I hope we're all against green meat...I wonder why they need a week just to celebrate a statement of fact.

I would not eat it in a box, I would not eat it with a fox...

I am trying to decide if I am more repulsed (on a strictly personal level and not in any broader philosophical sense) by Adolf Hitler's birthday or being called upon to respect the Lima bean.

I suppose the AH birthday thing is not confrontational in the sense it is not required I be happy he was born but only that I recognize that he was, presumably in whatever context suits me (cautionary tale?).

The Lima beans however demand respect. I'm just not ready to forgive them yet.

As for Lab Animal Day I guess I will celebrate the lives and deaths of thousands of Japanese spinning mice who though bred for centuries for nothing more than laughs, gave us the key to understanding the blood brain barrier, provided the first real treatment for syphilis and without whom chemotherapy would not have happened.

Thanks Herr Doktor Professor Paul Ehrlich you mouse murdering little Silesian saint.

Plastic bimbo wins....

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=2009…

Odd. T. Boone Pickens engages in philanthropy to OSU. Said person's wife is a member of PETA and condemns his alma mater for engaging in the torture of animals. And, just recently, Peter Singer (author of Animal Liberation, which is as creepily lauded by PETA-like people as Ayn Rand novels are by Libertarians)condemned T. Boone Pickens for his seeming generosity as merely FAUX philanthropy. :-)

[#42], don't worry. The neo-communists are in charge now, and it won't be too much longer before people with wealth will have their wealth redistributed, so that the wizards of smart, instead of bourgeoisie hoarders of lucre, will make all important decisions.

Once again, Limp Willy spews a bunch of words he doesn't even understand.

Neo-communist? I don't think it means what you think it means.

Redistributed? Again, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Bourgeoisie? I don't think it means what you think it means.

Oh, and your crazy is showing... you might want to cover that.

don't worry. The neo-communists are in charge now, and it won't be too much longer before people with wealth will have their wealth redistributed, so that the wizards of smart, instead of bourgeoisie hoarders of lucre, will make all important decisions.

yawn

"I hope we're all against green meat..."

Well, except for ham, of course... with eggs.

Sam I am

Just to add my outrage against T. Boone - my wife raises horses for fun and, if a business model must be adopted, for the Sport/Pleasure market. As a result of the Pickens clan recent lobbying efforts, the United States no longer has horse knackers. The unintended consequence is that run-of-the-mill horses now sell for $5 to $50 (add two zeroes for pre-Pickens prices). When the cost of raising a horse runs around $800 to $1000 per year, the Pickens Policy represents a huge disincentive to horse ownership, especially for breeders. The net result, unfortunately, will be the unhumane killing and illegal disposal of thousands of horses across this country. Thank you T. Boone and Maddy.

For the record - we do not engage in illegal practices and, for the time being, we have enough money to care for our herd. We also breed horses that are slightly above average.

Hey Jim, as a fellow horse person, I share your outrage. We raise horses for food, mostly in the Belgian market, some goes to France. Very lean, great for the bbq.

And a footnote: UK medical students certainly DO train with cadavers (my daughter the doctor graduated a year ago and confirms this).

JimNorth at #48

Ugh. I am so sorry to hear that

Now that she has shut down Canadaâs last rendering facility we can count on the wood hide glue used by every artists canvas and brush company as well as every traditional furniture manufacturer going up in price to the point that every wild burro and mustang in Mexico is going to get shot.

Psst the alternative glue is made from bunnies. I kid you not.

It turns out Mrs Pickens is more than a bit of a whack job. She attended a meeting on the issue of wild horses at The Bureau of Land Management and made this sweeping announcement that she would use her giant piles of money to take and shower love on all 30,000 horses that are corralled, ranged under contract and the 2,000 scheduled to be euthanized because their federal range will not support their herd growth.

Awesome!

Then she âalteredâ her offer to âGimmie 500 tax bucks per year per horse for the life of each horse I take and BTW I canât take more than 10,000 horses. Also, gimme half a million acres of public lands, seize the half million in private lands with eminent domain in Nevada and sell it to me fer cheap so I can build a wild horse amusement park with cabins and rides and I donât wanna pay no taxesâ

Wait wut?

Where does this luv fer duh aminulz come from? I looked it up.....

She won a racehorse off of her late husband ,who was thirty one years older than her ( he founded Gulfstream) on a golf bet and has been hooked ever since!

Wait wut?

She loves thoroughbred racing? She lives in 25,000 square foot house on a 68,000 acre hunting ranch with feeding stations for deer, quail, turkeys and coops for canned hunts of pheasants.....

â......the Wild West equivalent of a southern gentlemanâs hunting plantation arguably the finest quail-hunting spot in the known universe.â
How does that jibe? I think we may be seeing the greatest rational disconnect coupled with way too much money since Elvis decided he was a DEA agent.

LanceR, aside from hastily typed and consequently incorrect selection of the noun bourgeoisie instead of the adjective bourgeois, on the contrary, it is you who doesn't seem to understand the meanings or historical context of the words I used.

But you're a wizard of smart, so why don't you document, instead of just assert, how I don't understand the meanings of words I use.

"But you're a wizard of smart, so why don't you document, instead of just assert, how I don't understand the meanings of words I use."

Well we could start with the fact that no one of consequence is proposing that we abolish private property or collectivize the means of production. Mixed economies and welfare states != communism, no matter how much you wish to equate the two.

why don't you document, instead of just assert, how I don't understand the meanings of words I use.

Exhibit A: Every comment you've ever made here, at the Denialism Blog, and at Pharyngula. I would also recommend your personal blog, but because the concentrated crazy makes me nauseous, I haven't spent a lot of time there.

Buy a dictionary. Seriously. And turn off Faux News... name me *one* current politician who has proposed anything even vaguely resembling "neo-communism". Oh, that's right. Only Faux News morons spew that garbage.

Exhibit B: (This one is the Dinosaur Killer) Evolander. Srsly? Evolander? That's an SUV, you pathetic twit.

Really, you need to get an actual education. Or at least get out of Mom's basement.

name me *one* current politician who has proposed anything even vaguely resembling "neo-communism".

Okay, and after I do, then what.

And guess what this liberal will be all about? This liberal will be all ah, about, socializin..., ah umn [pregnant pause] would be about [pregnant pause] basically, taking over [pregnant pause] and the government running all of your companies.--Maxine Waters

Oh, that's right. Only Faux News morons spew that garbage.

If you don't like Fox, just listen to Maxine. You don't need Fox to tell you what she said.

Nice try Willy, but even nationalizing one industry doesn't rise to the level of advocating "neo-communism". Communism means private ownership is abolished outright, Maxine Waters' admittedly overzealous proposal still falls within the bounds of your typical mixed economy.

I wonder if Maddy knows how many of the plastic surgeons who messed up her face practiced on animals? I wonder if she knows every batch of Botox is tested on animals?

Ugh.

Not to mention that her brain seems to have been donated by a lab rat.

That's an interesting quote, Limp Willy. Got any context for that? 'Cause it sure sounds like a sound bite taken out of context to me. Odd how the only sites I find discussing it are the right-wing nuts and Faux News. Hmm... isn't that what I talked about?

Also, nationalizing one industry does not communism make. I still think you need to look up communism and see what it really means. Early christians lived communally. Most hunter-gatherer societies live communally. Communism (small c) simply means "living together as a community".

Again, education. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Even one so narrow as yours.

@LanceR, JSG # 57:

Early christians lived communally. Most hunter-gatherer societies live communally. Communism (small c) simply means "living together as a community".

That's a ridiculous assertion. Willy and those like him worship supply side Jesus: http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/franken/ssj05.html

Enough of this liberal commie revisionist bullshit!

OK puts bill on table for anti-stem cell research. This would be the most restrictive ban in the nation. ARGGHHHHH!!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=200…

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=2009…

Abbie this is off topic and you can delete this if you like, but Casey Luskin is pining for your attention again.

He just told a student that this was evidence for ID.

Genetics, where ID predicts and explains function for so-called âjunkâ DNA while neo-Darwinism stifles such research (Sternberg, 2002; Wells, 2004; Makalowski, 2003; Gibbs, 2003);

That was here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/helping_students_answer_a_prof_1.h…

Also, nationalizing one industry does not communism make.

Neo-communism is a kinder, gentler communism. And don't forget about health care and banking. They're on a short list from what I understand.

Early christians lived communally.

I actually agree with you here. I have nothing against people coming together in a voluntary association to live and divide their property in any way they see fit, so long as individuals are free to leave the association. Some late cults also lived communally, for example, the great liberal Jim Jones.

Most hunter-gatherer societies live communally.

So? They probably raped their women and brawled for entertainment as well.

Odd how the only sites I find discussing it are the right-wing nuts and Faux News.

And if you had watched Fox News you would have realized what a softball your challenge was ("name me *one* current politician who has proposed anything even vaguely resembling "neo-communism".")

Again, education. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

So why are you wasting yours? I'm the one educating you, here, now. I don't get my information from Fox News, btw, I barely even watch television. I have studied communism, and biographies of those who lived under it, particularly Chinese style of communism. I have also talked with many people who lived under it, from those who were content, to those who were not.

Anyway, you can call neo-communism a "mixed economy" all you want, or make up any other term you want, I really don't care. But you people are the ones complaining that a private individual is tossing her financial weight around. What is your solution if its not to tax the wealthy out of existence? Curse at them?

If you'd care to exchange a list of educational books to read, I'm all for it. I am just finishing up "Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class -- And What We Can Do About It" written by a flaming liberal. Very painful to read as the author freely mixes legitimate beefs with the illegitimate, and accurate history with the fanciful.

Here is one book book I recommend for you. If you have not yet read it, and agree to read it, I will read any similar book you recommend, unless I have already read it, in which you can continue to offer similar books until you find one I haven't read.

John Locke: "Second Treatise of Government"

And don't forget about health care and banking. They're on a short list from what I understand.

You're really trying to assert that universal health care is neo-communist?

Wow. You're actually going to say that Japan is neo-communist, just because they have universal health care? Japan? The country with some of the largest corporations in the world? Or how about Germany? England? They're all communists?

Really?

Man, I bet the people running corporations in capitalist nations with universal health care are fucking stupefied to learn they're communists. Corporations of the world unite! Er... Somehow, it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Saying that universal health care = any kind of communism, paleo or neo, proves that you're a fucking moron.

"Hi Bob, we don't use cadavers these days in med schools in the UK"

SOME MED SCHOOLS STILL DO! I'm not sure whether they are used outside oxbridge but I know all the med students in my year were still practising on cadavers. And all the years below as well. Apparently although it was invaluably useful, it was still very different from the real, living thing. Obviously though, medical students cannot practise on living humans.

Our doctors may be occassionally slightly clueless but at least we don't have to sell the house to afford them :p

I want to see all the good they're doing with homogenizing cell flow patterns, and there is a lot of good! like pharmaceutical benefits! As well as chemical, biotech, cosmetic, and even food. It's something that should be applauded. I think.