Acupuncture is the ancient East Asian practice of poking people with needles in specific places and in specific ways in order to produce any one of a very wide range of results that could generally be classified as medicinal or health related. I don't know much about it, but Wikipedia tells us:
Its general theory is based on the premise that bodily functions are regulated by the flow of an energy-like entity called qi. Acupuncture aims to correct imbalances in the flow of qi by stimulation of anatomical locations on or under the skin called acupuncture points, most of which are connected by channels known as meridians. Scientific research has not found any physical or biological correlate of qi, meridians and acupuncture points,[1][2][3][4][5] and some contemporary practitioners needle the body without using a theoretical framework, instead selecting points based on their tenderness to pressure.
Leave it to Wikipedia to find the least intuitive way to spell "chi."
Changa, I can describe to you more authoritatively because I've studied it, a bit and lived in it's region of use, though I'm sure there are others who know much more about it. This is the practice of making numerous small, often parallel cuts in the skin, and then (usually) rubbing ash into the cuts. The ash is made of a mixture of selected leaves or other plant matter thought to have curative properties which are burned to make the ash. Often the plant ash is mixed with ash from a convenient wood fire, and if there are no available thought-to-be-curative plants, the ash from the fire on its own will do. The ash is not applied hot.
Changa is used by various culture groups in Central Africa, and is identical in method to a form of body decoration sometimes called scarification (it is only a subset of scarification). People who do this seem to use the same term for the medicinal practice and the decorative practice, and it is not clear that the two are fully exclusive of each other. One of the interesting things about Changa is that you can often guess the chronic illnesses a particular person suffers by observing their body scars, their extent, and distribution. For instance, since malaria is common in the region, most people who practice Changa (which means, essentially, most people) will have Changa marks on their forehead.
I've never observed acupuncture, but according to one study, applying traditional acupuncture, "incorrect" acupuncture (where you poke someone with a needle but not in the "correct" manner) and poking someone with a sharp wooden stick (a toothpick) all produce similar results: The severity of chronic back pain is reduced, compared to a control which does not involve poking with a sharp object.
I've only observed Changa being carried out once, despite the fact that I've seen many people with scars indicating it had been done, and I've seen many people with immediate post-Changa cuts. Of course, I've never seen most medical procedures done in the West either, yet people have them all the time. The one time I saw Changa carried out, it seemed to work exactly as expected. An infant had been in obvious pain, and cried pretty much continuously, for a few days before the infant's father applied Changa to his distended stomach. Dozens and dozens of cuts were applied, and the ash wiped into the wounds. About half way through the process the infant stopped crying, and over the next 24 hours or so cried very little, his stomach reduced in size, and he seemed to improve overall. His mother, who apparently had mastitis, died within 48 hours after the Changa was applied to the infant, and her sister married the infant's father (Levirate marriage) and since she was with milk, took over nursing the child.
I could list all the reasons why the Changa seemed to work and we could have a lengthy and exhaustive discussion about it, but instead of that, I'll let you speculate based on the information provided and tell you the simple version of what I think happened. At the scale of hours or days, the mother of the infant, quite ill with a deadly infection, stopped producing milk which was, in turn, poisoning the child. In the meantime, the mother's sister increased the amount of milk she was providing the child. The Changa was done to the child during this hand-off, so prior to Changa the child was quite ill, after it, not as ill. The reason why the child stopped crying during the Changa, even though he had been inconsolably crying for a very long time prior and was still quite ill, is more speculative. Chance or coincidence is certainly a possibility, but I think, guess really, that something else happened. I suspect that dozens and dozens of tiny slices in your stomach is rather distracting both to the psyche (even of an infant) and to the various homeostatic mechanisms of the body. The child passed out in pain, got some sleep, and woke up healthier because of a change in milk supply. Maybe.
I would guess, and this is only a guess, that Acupuncture and Changa have two things in common. The first I'm rather sure of, the second is pure conjecture. The first is that each has a set of associated behaviors which are fetishized and considered important, but in truth irrelevant to the effectiveness of the procedure, and are essentially window dressing. As I say, I don't know much about Acupuncture, but adjusting where a needle will go based on readings of Chi is obviously not part of any system of anything that actually does something. There is no such thing as Chi. There seem to be a number of fetishized elements of Changa as well, the most obvious and easily documented is the use of multiple plants with specific "properties" in the ash mixture. Since these are all leaves of saplings, mainly one kind of fig or another, I'm sure there are not any interesting secondary compounds in the leaves. Since they are burned to ash before they are used, I'm sure the substance being rubbed into the wounds is mainly carbon, but since it is just burned, at least it is fairly sterile.
The second thing they have in common is that they both inflict pain and directly invade the body. I doubt this will have too much effect on an infection, depression, or evil spirits/bad chi, but I do wonder if adding more pain to pain ... or different pain to pain, or specific pain to general pain, or whatever ... could have an effect on pain other than making it hurt worse.
Oh, but wait, there may be another difference, not between the methods, but between those who use the techniques. I'm speaking here more of the patients than the practitioners, though in the case of Changa there is pretty much total overlap between those groups. This is, again, conjecture and it is based on my own limited observation.
I've known a number of people who chose "Alternate" medicine such as homeopathy, naturopathy, or chiropractic services over mainstream medicine, pursuing the former with vigor while at the same time rejecting, even disdaining the latter. Of those people I know, including verified cases of people who know people I know, one had to have major life threatening surgery to survive the alternative treatments (which he could not refuse since he was in a coma), one spent months in pain, others have been variously inconvenienced or not cured, and one is dead.
I've known a number of people who chose Changa, but none who chose it over whatever Western Medicine was available. Be assured that the father who Changa'd his son went to me first for medicine for the infant. Turns out I was not much help in that case, but I never met a person in those cultures who was not very happy to have antibiotics or other Western treatments, either instead of or along side of traditional methods, and I never met anyone willing to argue that traditional methods were better than Western ones.
I wonder what American New Agers would think if they knew that; People living in a "state of nature" surrounded by wonderful natural cures and remedies have much more faith in Western Medicine than they do in their own time honored traditional cures. Of course, if you live in a parasite-rich sometimes nutrition starved jungle, you can't afford the luxury of being an idiot.
So, which is better, Acupuncture or Changa? Tell you what. I'll give you the Acupuncture and you can keep the Changa.
- Log in to post comments
More like this
Poor woman. She likely would have survived with what we consider very basic medical care.
Greg, I would suggest you to "experience" acupuncture at least once to write an article about it. You might not believe in meridians, chi or qi... But to compare "Changa"(that no one heard about) to acupuncture is not acceptable. I've been practicing acupuncture for a few years and helped many people feel better and become PAIN FREE! I believed in acupuncture from the first acupuncture needle and was amazed by feeling the flow of energy (when I was 19years old, in Meds school). Everyone should try acupuncture!!!
Brigitta, millions of people know about Changa. If Africa is off your radar screen ... well, maybe THAT is unacceptable!
I don't think I said that acupuncture didn't work, by the way. I don't know that it does work, either. I've not extensively read the literature on it.
It appears they probably work equally well. That said, if I had to chose one, couldn't wiggle out of getting "treated", I'd probably go with the acupuncture. It seems to leave the victim less sliced and shredded.
But then you don't get the free body art!
Acupuncture does not work as claimed by proponents of acupuncture, however it does have a significant efficacy at relieving people of the symptoms of a healthy wallet.
My sister uses acupuncture. "It works", she says. "When I go in, I have terrible back pain and when I come out it's gone".
Of course, she has to keep going back for more, as soon as her back pain returns.....
The irony of that is that quack-med fans always complain that medicine "only treats the symtoms".
Distraction has been shown to reduce pain, including this study http://www.acutepainjournal.com/article/S1366-0071(05)00094-X/abstract on children. That would explain the apparent success of both methods, having needles stuck into you or being cut is likely to distract most people. It also expalins why Acupuncture has been shown in studies to work just as well if the needles are just pushed in anywhere instead of in the "magic" chi places.
E² Acupuncture Science Since 2600BC
Any skeletal muscle pain can be easily cured by Tradition Chinese Medicine (TCM) Acupuncture.
For 4,610 years (2600BC), Yellow Explorer's time. Until now acupuncturist continues this ancient TCM practice to eliminating all diseases (trying). All the main hospitals of China use this to treat most patients as busy as KFC fast food.
Acupuncture treatment will has needling sensation effect for first few days. This called âDE Qi/Chiâ (Arrival of OxyâBlood---needling sensation). it must be achieved so that Yin & Yang(Negative and Positive energy) can be balanced and bodyâs immune system has strengthens, else diseases canât be eliminated. The fundamental manipulating techniques are Lifting and thrusting & Twirling or rotating. TCM Acupuncture therapeutic works and easily cures muscular pain if apply correctly.
Beside sciatica(more trials needed), all others skeletal muscle pains are not recorded in TCM text therefore no âAcupoints(???)â can be provided to any acupuncturist as that they need to advancing the practice and pick the right AcuPoints.
Be respectful, Acupuncture is not a device or voodoo magic, it does not release any things (certainly not endorphins, inflammation, etc, ..) or anti-inflammatory agents. Please do not mislead. It is a marvelous 4,610+ years old, micro surgical tool, etc, .
âAn acupuncture is bad scienceâ. not much can be expected in 4,610 years ago, science not even exist. Good science & Resources only available from 1850AD such great scientists: Heinrich Hertz (1887) & Albert Einstein (1905).
Since 2005 E² Acupuncture has added a new chapter of modem acupuncture science. which has scientific proven, formulated, verified and even dispelling the amount of excessive Yins/-Toxin can be calculated. Treatment uses single new save disposal and painless micro-needle insertion to proper âAcupoints(??)â and has no side effects, least risk mainly due to accident same as any treatments. No Lifting and thrusting & Twirling or rotating manipulating needed so that patient cans comfortably having a cup of tea/coffee.
Acupuncturist must fully understood the Five Elements(äºè¡), Five Changes(äºå) and Five Shu/Transports(äºè¾/é) Yin & Yang balance principles. if any one treated by 5 X 30 minutes in 2 weeks and has no relief by 4 weeks, please discontinues and shop around.
I have my Plantar fasciitis cured twice by my own EE Acupuncture, last cured was on march/2011 since then pain remains free and no sign of coming back. (E²/EE: Eliminates Excessive Yins/-Toxin/Electrons)
check/click on my site below
https://sites.google.com/site/jameschongpainfree/
or more help below sites
http://talk.plantar-fasciitis.org/profile/JamesChong?xg_source=profiles…
http://groups.google.com/group/plantar-fasciitis-AcupCure/browse_thread…
Sciatica update (loc: buttock & 5 inches down, 2 spots).
treated on 30th/10/2011.
12 days after and feedback:
"Been feeling the slight tenderness in the area where the needle were inserted. Felt my legs is tired but not the numbness." (50% pain relief, 100% no numbness)
5 weeks Later (email on 4th/11/2011):
"Seems to be fine, slight tenderness but definitely better than before" (now 90% cure)
why pain relief if it can be so easily cured.
and the cost of curing it is so much less then a pair of PF shoes and not to mention others, .
cheers
James
progjohn: Indeed.
I had a nasty injury to my leg a couple of years ago. There was surgury, there were pain killers, etc. etc.
A few weeks after the accident I realized that I had also injured my shoulder. I had noticed it bothering me a bit, but I was very distracted by having my leg almost fall off, and little pains like a messed up shoulder were masked by the very nice painkillers I was taking for the knee.
Now, if I had only had accupuncture, maybe I could have tracked down the chi ....
I am a great admirer of Laden so I plead:
Don't call it "western medicine", and instead try "scientific". Otherwise you'll have excessive Yins. Also, blood letting and homeopathy and praying to Jesus are all pretty "western" too. Further, it isn't polite, when lots of the scientists working on these matters are from all over the world. We are in this together. Maybe one can make arguments that the "west" contributed allot to science, but that is not so important now, and sounds self-aggrandizing. We don't call Schrödinger's equations Austrian physics.
I'm an anthropologist. Don't think I haven't thought about this!
Calling it "Western Medicine" makes me cringe because it would seem to exclude that which is not from The West, and it reifies the idea that good things come from The West and strange or icky or untrustworthy or ineffective or scary things come from Africa, Asia, etc.
However, calling it "Scientific Medicine" implies that it is scientific. There is a great deal of overlap between science and medicine, and good medicine is scientific, but (and again this is the anthropologist talking) many of the weaknesses in this thing we are talking about come from its own insistence (the insistence, usually a screaming arrogant insistence) that it is all full of and built of truth, and is perfect science. I don't want to give Medicine that particualr hall pass.
I would argue that the self-aggrandizing of calling itself "scientific" may be in the same ball park as the self-aggrandizing of calling itself "Western" though who is being called what by whom shifts between the two terms.
Since "Western Medicine" is the term people know and use, I simply continued to use it with reservations I did not bother (at the time) to voice. But I do have reservations.
But nix on Scientific. Give me another word, I'll try that out and see how it works.
Thanks for this, Greg, very interesting. Related: A lot of "natural" childbirth/home birth proponents fail to notice (or choose to ignore, I don't know) that women in developing countries tend to give birth at home, naturally, and have depressingly high rates of maternal & perinatal death/complications. I'm sure poor women worldwide would love access to the medical interventions that natural-birthers disparage.
Question about your above comment: do you think there's something particular about the way medicine is currently practiced that generally makes it more arrogant or more bound to orthodoxy than other scientific disciplines, or are these traits present, to some degree, in all sciences?
I agree with the first commenter. You should have at least witnessed acupuncture before writing an article about it. I think not doing that is bad journalism. How are we supposed to take your point of view seriously if you haven't even bothered with eyewitness research before making such a definitive decision about the subject?
How can we take seriously the information in the textbook about cancer, if it wasn't even written by someone who has cancer?
I demand eyewitness research!
Question about your above comment: do you think there's something particular about the way medicine is currently practiced that generally makes it more arrogant or more bound to orthodoxy than other scientific disciplines, or are these traits present, to some degree, in all sciences?
Katherine: Oh yes, I'm sure there is.
Compared to other sciences, other disciplines. People in medicine save your life or otherwise snatch you from the jaws of misery and pain. And, they are pretty good at it, and almost always good natured about it. However, my experience has been that if I piss off a doctor or a nurse I get a very different kind of result than if I piss off, say, a climatologist or or a geologist. (This just happens to be a good way to see it ... it emerges in other ways as well.) And yes, I'm generalizing but that's the level we're discussing this here. There may be exceptions.
Just don't ever tell a doctor that doctors are arrogant!
What do you think?
@12 Thanks for explaining.
How about "mostly-sorta-scientific medicine", or "attempting-to-become-scientific medicine". Yeah, not so catchy.
I'm a critic too, and your point about it sounding too good is well taken. But I also think "perfect science" may be oxymoronic, and "western" still hurts, and that "scientific" is closer to the distinctive trait that "western" is.
Maybe a flood of woo-prone commenter can help me make that last point, unwittingly.
@greg, I really donât know enough about science or medicine to have a fully-formed opinion on that; I was mostly curious about your comment suggesting that while medicine/science overlap somewhat, they do not always align exactly. I suppose that medicine is the field that most regularly interacts with layfolk, thus any defensiveness/assholery on the part of doctors may arise from the half-baked theories they must confront and debunk on a regular basis. I donât think Iâve had occasion to piss off a doctor, yet; Iâve mostly had good results from modern medicine (can we call it âmodernâ?), but I can imagine that those who have experienced less successful treatments are more likely to challenge the practice of medicine in general, leading to the above-mentioned defensiveness. But I also donât know enough (or any, actually) astrophysicists or chemists to know if they are equally as defensive when challenged.
My personal impulse is to be a little more wary regarding the field of psychiatric medicine, especially the increasing numbers of children who are being given powerful psychotropic drugs whose long-term effects are unknown. I am absolutely not saying that mental illness doesnât exist or that many or even most people with a diagnosis do not benefit from available treatments, but, determining who displays sufficient abnormal behavior seems to some degree to be a matter of expedience and aesthetic taste, rather than objective scientific criteria, whereas physical symptoms are easier to measure. But thatâs another subject entirely.
I could be talked into Scientific Medicine. It's just that I don't see it as a term without it's problems. But it is hard to find a term without a problem for anything.
No sense in getting hysterical about it.
(see what I did there?)
Modern Medicine is probably good too. It is often used. But again, "modern" is always problematic because of its meanings and associations in nearby contexts.
There's always Allopathic Medicine ...
@Dylan#14: Bullshit; if we were to follow your advice we'd have to see Jesus for ourselves before we tell christians that their religious beliefs are nothing but superstition. There are half-decent articles out there which conclusively demonstrate that Chinese Voodoo doesn't work. Any mention of the ancients' knowledge of energy etc. is crap. People are most frequently taken in by what progjohn described and also by maladies which go away of their own accord (flu, viral facial paralysis, etc). Actually seeing this voodoo in practice would make people laugh; you could go to a number of witch doctors and give exactly the same story and ask them what they'd do - they all want to poke you in different places.
I hurt my shoulder and spent a full year with mainstream medicine. PT, cortisone, electrophoresis therapy, multiple medications. I was in constant pain and had 40% range of motion. Finally they wanted to operate. Instead of heading to surgery, I went to the chiro. He did a combination of chiro and acupuncture. There is nothing painful about accupuncture, by the way. It took about six weeks, but I slowly got better to the point where I got back 100% Range of motion and no pain. Anecdotal, yes. Correlation does not equal causation, yes. But I'm several years out from this experience and absolutely fine. I credit the chiro/ acupuncture.
You might give it a go sometime. I think there is a tendency for mainstream medicine to be dismissive about alternate therapies too quickly. Just because we scientists can't figure out the mechanism yet, doesn't mean the mechanism isn't there.
Cheers.
If the purported mechanism is arrant nonsense clothed in gobbledegook, then, yes, we can be dismissive of it.
Chiropractic is utter rubbish, you would get the same result just going to the physio, with the added benefit that you would't be being treated by a lunatic who believes in patent nonsense, and without the risk of having arteries severed in your neck.
I've noticed where I live, the Chiropractor quacks charge less than the real physios do. I wonder why that is....?
I would trust acupuncture before chiropractory, because in the former they are just little needles and in the latter you can get your neck broken.
Putting it another way, nobody can break my chi, but my bones are more vulnerable, since they exist.
There are a range of medical issues/disorders that are not well understood by science based medicine (and I mean "science") and are thus ripe for woo. When a person is stuck with a chronic and painful disorder that cannot be cured, that person may get desperate. Mix that in with a bit of credulous temperament, and you have a recipe for new age woo. I'm watching this scenario play out now with a loved one, and so far I can say with some confidence that homeopathy is a wonderful cure for wealth. (The remedies are cheap, but the constant need for consultations gets very pricey.)
An even bigger problem, though, is that acceptance of woo requires ever increasing amounts of credulity on the part of the patient, which encourages more and more irrational behavior even in other aspects of life. It's like watching a brain rot. Not fun.
Wow! I had never even heard of Changa before this blog and it made me very interested to see which one you thought works better. Personally, I'm a little skeptical about these more spiritual methods of treating diseases. I donât think I would be able to believe either of these really work until I try them myself since neither of them actually uses real medicine. The story you described couldâve been a coincidence so I'm really not sold on either method. But thanks for broadening my knowledge about Changa since I have never heard of it before!
(from http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/2003/fs134/en/)
â¢25% of modern medicines are made from plants first used traditionally.
â¢Acupuncture has been proven effective in relieving postoperative pain, nausea during pregnancy, nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy, and dental pain with extremely low side effects. It can also alleviate anxiety, panic disorders and insomnia.
â¢Yoga can reduce asthma attacks while Tai Ji techniques can help the elderly reduce their fear of falls.
â¢TM can also have impact on infectious diseases. For example, the Chinese herbal remedy Artemisia annua, used in China for almost 2000 years has been found to be effective against resistant malaria and could create a breakthrough in preventing almost one million deaths annually, most of them children, from severe malaria.
â¢In South Africa, the Medical Research Council is conducting studies on the efficacy of the plant Sutherlandia Microphylla in treating AIDS patients. Traditionally used as a tonic, this plant may increase energy, appetite and body mass in people living with HIV.
Please calm down East and West. Medicine in scientific term is always up most advantages then none.
After online concluded my five years of acupuncture researched.
Is Matter of fact, over 4610+ years, practicing acupuncture medicine is already written in Yellow Emperor medical text "
Dispel Yins"(negative energy). As that, which concluded the term of scientific fact.
In my site's picture google.com/site/jameschongpainfree
Has demonstrate scientific fact of a fine metal needle and it's nature phenomenon action under the right environment. Which had published by a great scientist in 1887, 4480+ years after. If any scientist not convince of this nature phenomenon fact. please back to the science study.
for practicing medicine must stand patient side of benefits.
comfort, risk, any complication and sides effect.
it doesn't matter of which legal medical method of practice.
cheers
James.
Lw @22
Medicine teaches us that to recover 100% from an injury usually takes between 12 and 18 months. Partial recovery takes less time.
Does that time scale sound familiar?
It should, because you just described it.
Your time span to recovery sounds as though it should be accredited to the natural rate of healing rather than coincidental use of an ineffective "mechanism".
Is Matter of Fact, has no MD will making the claim 100% cure.
80%+ considered cure, at least sufferers free from pain and live on they normal life and take care of it.
Length of time for cures is up to individual conditions
example footballer's broken knee on TV news and back to the
games 4 weeks after surgery.
By the way E² Acupuncture only treating skeletal muscle pain
at this moment but will be blanching out for skeletal cancer especially breast cancer,. etc.
For my first and second PF treatments. I thought this were coincident.
then knee, back and sciatica had proven the calculated outcome.
as sciatica double spots pain buttock & 5 inches down,
Sufferer: nurse, 3 years of very pain, weak and tire, numbness great outcomes treated on 30th/10/2011. by 1 treatment, ongoing.
12 days after and feedback:
"Been feeling the slight tenderness in the area where the needle were inserted. Felt my legs is tired but not the numbness." (50% pain relief, 100% no numbness)
5 weeks Later (email on 4th/11/2011):
"Seems to be fine, slight tenderness but definitely better than before" (now 90% cure)
let the sufferer speech to them self.
aren't they happy with 80% cure, what else do they want?
Merry Christmas.
Cheers James
@23 "If the purported mechanism is arrant nonsense clothed in gobbledegook, then, yes, we can be dismissive of it."
A bit too far there. If there was smashing data that A causes B (or even just is correlated), we'd continue to look for the mechanism. Typically the situation is no reasonable mechanism AND no good data.
@27: Yes, plants can contain useful drugs - modern medicine tries to take advantage of that. Yes, physical exercise or therapy can be good. Limes can prevent scurvy too, is that alternative? That leaves only the acupuncture claim. The given link is dead, though the phrase can be found on dozens of web sites with a profit motive. The wikipedia article on acupuncture mentions it and it's problems. Do jabs have physiological effects? Sure. So does Changa, massage, and my ancient but new version of burn-the-skin therapy.
To all the natural medicine, acupuncture supporters and the following sites
google,
plantar-fasciitis.org,
pubarticle
and many others
especially this site scienceblogs.
Have allowed me to provides you the Great truth scientific facts of this hidden 4,610 years old TCM Acupuncture practice.
For many perhaps thousand years of criticism such bad, death and voodoo acupuncture science. Now you got the scientific facts from
https://sites.google.com/site/jameschongpainfree/
Donât you think TCM Acupuncture deserve an apology into this scienceblogs
THANKS, merry Christmas to you all
James.
In 2001, published Hendrik Sch..'s scientific scandal can only fool you a year or 2. But not to the scientific facts and so as acupuncture. It can't fool you for 4610+ years long. simply because of languages barriers have mislead, . .
Below another evidence since E² acupuncture science online.
S/He shop around and now Pain free, ..
from http://www.examiner.com/holistic-science-spirit-in-national/new-scienti…
Anonymous 1 week ago
I never thought acupunture worked, being a skeptic and never seeing any evidence, I had it once before and it didnt work for the condition I had. I recently reluctantly tried it on the urging of a friend at a free birthing clinic in a developing country. I found the acupuncturists to be very knowlegable about my condition which is Hashimotos. And they stuck the needles in deep this time, unlike the last time I had it. That was two months ago. I had been severedly fatigued everyday at the same time for a year without missing a day, and 24-48 hours after the treatment, I was not experiencing any fatigue. Its been 2 months without any fatigue, I would say it was either a miracle or it really does work. The quality may vary with practitioners I have guessed, make sure the needles go deep, you should feel a pressure feeling and a paralysis feeling. You will be unable to move for the duration of the treatment. Even while getting the treatment I was thinking this will not work!! And they moxibusted on the needles to, which gave off a lot of smoke, and I was even more skeptical, hating the idea of smoke for health. But by geez it worked, I still cant beleive it. There is so much we dont know, so much knowlege has been lost, just think of all the wars that are going on now, multiply that times 5,000 years and think of of all the things that were destroyed in the chaos. Hell, maybe god even exists....
For latest scientific facts update, please check/click on my site
https://sites.google.com/site/jameschongpainfree/