Pity poor David Kirby.
After all, he made his name by hitching his star to a losing hypothesis, namely that the mercury in thimerosal in vaccines causes autism. He wrote a book about it, Evidence of Harm, back in 2005 and has milked that sucker dry ever since. Most recently, his appearances culminated in a "debate" last month with Arthur Allen, whose book Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver just garnered a very favorable review in the New York Times, during which he did a most amusing dance around the issue by pointing to "other sources" of environmental mercury including forest fires and mercury vapor arising from crematoria when corpses with amalgam fillings are cremated. (Careful, David, or you'll drift into serious anti-amalgam woo. Next you'll be prattling about "toxic teeth.") Of course, what else could he do, given that, as the epidemiological evidence comes in in the years since thimerosal has been removed from vaccines, there hasn't been even a hint of a sustained decrease in the incidence of new cases of autism using multiple sources of data? Heck, there hasn't even been a downtick in the rate of increase. He was defending a loser of a proposition, scientifically and epidemiologically speaking. His only real hope was to be glib (something he is quite good at) and to use the time-honored technique of the crank defending pseudoscience: Try to dazzle 'em with curveballs or baffle 'em with bull, hence the tropes about forest fires, mercury from China, and increased numbers of cremations in California as a way of trying to distract attention from the fact that the subtitle of his book Evidence of Harm was Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy, not Mercury from Crematoria and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy or Mercury from Forest Fires and China and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy.
Yes, you'd think that David Kirby had fallen about as low as he could fall as far as his credibility on the issue of mercury and autism goes, but you'd be wrong. You see, he's now been dissed big time by Rosie O'Donnell and is now reduced to whining about it on The Huffington Post, all because he wasn't allowed to spout off on the coffee klatch cum daytime TV talk show that Rosie recently joined as a regular (The View) about the scientifically discredited claim that mercury in vaccines causes autism:
"Causation," of course, is the autism question of the century. Why do we have so many sick kids? Is this all simply genetics? Then why is there so much more autism now? What changed, and what are we doing to find out?You won't find out on Monday's program.
Instead, The View presented a respectful and sometimes teary portrait of families living with autistic children-- their daily struggles and special needs. Several kids were onstage, some verbal, some not, and they handled themselves very well. It was a fine show about autism awareness, and the producers are to be lauded for it, especially for asking what will happen when so many disabled, dependent kids turn 21.
Of course, that's not enough for Kirby:
During the breaks, however, I could hear women in the audience murmuring to each other: "But what causes it? Why so many children? What about mercury? How can I get more information?"
During the final break, I asked Rosie when the question of causation would come up.
"We're not doing that," she said, bluntly. "We're focusing on families and their kids."
"Rosie," I replied, "I think a lot of people are wondering about what's causing this."
"We don't know what causes it," she said. "You just want me to ask so you can talk about mercury."
Stung, I explained that her audience members were asking, and that production staff had also asked me about causation privately backstage.
"We're not doing causation," Rosie repeated. "In fact, I told them not to book you."
Normally, I don't think much of Rosie O'Donnell. In fact, when I see her on TV, it has an effect on me not unlike the effect of nails on chalkboard, and I have to change the channel rather quickly. I rarely, if ever, watch The View even on the relatively rare occasions when I'm actually home during the day on a weekday, and Rosie's presence on the show makes it even less likely that I'll watch when I do happen to have a day off work. Indeed, in her recent pissing match with Donald Trump, I couldn't decide who was more annoying (or who had the worst hair). However, if she has enough judgment to know that inviting Kirby to a show on autism would only provoke a mercury-fueled side show and is able to put a pompous ass like Kirby in his place, I suppose she can't be all bad.
Naturally, Kirby can't just accept this as a decision made simply to focus on autism awareness and the question of what will happen to these children when they turn 21, when services they and their parents had been using will disappear or be drastically curtailed. Oh, no, it has to be a conspiracy that "silenced" Rosie, at least this time:
My head spun as the show wrapped up. Had The View finally squelched Rosie O'Donnell? Did mercury trump Trump? Was this the heavy metal that dare not speak its name, at least on a network flush with Pharma ads?
It's hard to say for sure. Last year, former host Star Jones posed the vaccine-autism question on the air, (but then again, look what happened to her).
Never mind that, to all appearances, Jones' departure from the show seemed to be about network claims that her acceptance of clothing and merchandise for her wedding in exchange for mentions on The View was in violation of network policy or because she was somehow blindsided by Barbara Walters. Oh, no, hints Kirby darkly, it had to be because she supposedly posed the dreaded (and supposedly verboten) "vaccine-autism" question on the air.
Pathetic.
Just for yucks, I looked to see if I could find exactly what it was that Star Jones said about vaccines and autism on The View. It wasn't too hard to find, taking me all of a couple minutes. This is what Jones said about the issue on the January 18, 2006 episode of The View, where the guest was Suzanne Wright of Autism Speaks:
STAR JONES REYNOLDS, co-host: There have been reports that mercury found in vaccines, all vaccinations that all the children get early on, maybe are contributing factors of autism. Now, of course, there's so much debate in the medical community a lot of people disagree. Do doctors know what causes autism?
WRIGHT: We don't know what causes autism and that's partly why we founded Autism Speaks because it's so - they don't have a voice out there. There's so many groups involved in autism. We want to be the national voice. And as far as the vaccine issue is concerned, there is no scientific proof linking it and yet there's no scientific proof saying that it's not part of this problem.
REYNOLDS: So you're suggesting that there should be more research?
WRIGHT: And the awareness that we're going to bring, then we get the funds and then we give it to research and science.
Oooh. Dangerous stuff. I can see why Kirby thought she was fired over that. By the way, that's the only mention of vaccines in that episode.
Of course, because, by not letting Kirby pontificate about "causation," which, quite frankly, among the mercury militia is code for vaccines as an alleged "cause" of autism, Rosie apparently didn't bow down and genuflect before the cult of mercury and autism sufficiently and thus has been the subject of the wrath of the mercury militia. One thing I learned from Kirby's HuffPo article that I didn't know before is that Rosie O'Donnell has a blog, and Kevin Leitch has documented quite amusingly how the mercury militia descended upon this blog and badgered Rosie about the issue:
Zola writes:
4th time asking... I know David Kirby was in the audience of the autism show. Why was the mercury question not asked? A subject too hot for Rosie?not enough time
and not the focus of the show
Sounds pretty clear. Note, however, the similarity in wording ("too hot for Rosie") between Zola and David Kirby. Couldn't be they're cribbing from the same sheet, could it?
Erik writes:
Rosie, "The View" avoided any discussion of Autism's causality, and only picks orgs as resources who have no interest in the thimerosal controversy. Why? Have you been pressured?pressured? by who
listen
I ROSIE ODONNELL
chose not to do causation
ME
Heh, that's telling him!
Lisa writes:
Do you believe there is a link between autism and mercury?perhaps
Oh, well, two out of three ain't bad, I guess.
Kevin is quite amusing as he documents various mercury militia wondering if the responders to these questions was "really" Rosie, saying:
So, here's Ms O'Donnell not venerating at the feet of David Kirby - this must be a conspiracy. And here's Ms O'Donnell having her blog authored by Shadowy Figures......I can almost feel the Black Helicopters taking off, can't you?
Oh, yes, I can.
What's truly amusing about this whole kerfluffle (yes, I know I use that word a lot now, but I've come to like it; it has a lovely sound rolling off the tongue and describes this whole View thing quite well) is the utter arrogance behind it. Let me explain. Apparently everybody--I mean everybody--can be "bought off" by big pharma, the vaccine manufacturers, the CDC, whatever, including Rosie, all the researchers who keep publishing article after article in peer-reviewed journals not supporting the thimerosal-autism concept (again, I refuse to dignify it anymore by calling it a "hypothesis"), the media, and anyone else capable of applying enough critical thinking to see that the thimerosal-autism idea just won't fly. Everybody, that is, except the intrepid warriors against the system, like David Kirby, J.B. Handley, Erik Nanstiel, among others. They're the only ones who know The Truth. Everyone else is a willing or bought-off dupe of The Government and/or Big Pharma.
After all, as Jim Laidler put it, "If 'Big Pharma' can 'buy off' Rosie O'Donnell, why can't they 'buy off' David Kirby? Is he just too honest and ethical to be bought?"
How insulting is that to skeptics? And how arrogant is that, that these people think themselves to be in essence the only ones immune to this big conspiracy? It reminds me of the 9/11 Truthers (whose "theories" are delightfully skewered here) who descended on my blog a couple of months ago when I discussed 9/11 conspiracy theories.
I tend to view this increasing level of hysteria as a manifestation of the fact that the mercury/vaccines/autism hypothesis is clearly failing, so much so that even the mercury militia is starting to sense it. That explains David Kirby's desperate attempts to deflect attention away from the vaccine claim and towards "other" causes of environmental mercury, no matter how far-fetched, as The Answer. (Never mind that nearly none of them mentioned environmental mercury before it became clear that the vaccine claim was failing scientifically and epidemiologically.) I Basically, at its heart, the mercury militia is a bunch of antivaccination conspiracy theorists, and if science keeps showing that it's incredibly unlikely that mercury in vaccines caused or causes autism, they'll have to cast about for other reasons to latch onto to claim that vaccines cause autism. That's why I think now is as good a time as any to join Arthur Allen in asking for nominations for the next "vaccines cause autism" hypothesis.
Personally, I vote for the aluminum adjuvant in vaccines (which, if you believe some luminaries of the "alternative medicine" movement, also causes Alzheimer's disease), although there are those who favor squalene, a chemical found in some vaccines. And, of course, don't count out the "too many vaccines mess up the immature immune system of a baby" canard, a longtime favorite of antivaccinationists and one that just won't go away.
So, dear readers, tell me: What is your nominee for the next "vaccines cause autism" hypothesis, circa 2007?
"So, dear readers, tell me: What is your nominee for the next "vaccines cause autism" hypothesis, circa 2007?"
Dihydrogen monoxide- it's in all the vaccines.
I vote for, secret chemicals that they don't tell us about designed to make us compliant to large government/addicted to KFC
Firstly, I, too, cannot suffer Rosie for more time than it takes to hit to remote. However, I fortified myself that morning, and managed to watch around a third of the show. I was impressed with the coverage of what I consider the real issue in Autism (and any other childhood disability), i.e. dealing with the day to day issues, and planning for the future. Many parents of non-special needs kids can wait until the junior or senior year of high school before planning for the post-high school lives of their kids. We cannot. Our transition planning began in junior high, with the high school being selected because the environment was conducive to transition.
The CAA monies need to be spent on these issues, and not chasing some mythical causation fairy tale. It is time for parents to wake up and realize that their kids are not defective, they do not have to blame something or someone, and start dealing with the issues. Stop wasting resources (time being the only one that cannot be replaced) and focus on the future.
I do not expect this to happen with those who are heavily invested with causation. They need that like people need oxygen.
Hmmmmm... let's check the list
Thimerosal = No
TV = No
Thomas the Tank Engine = No
MMR = No
Richard Simmons = No
Red Dye #5 = No
a single gene = No
I guess that pretty much leaves a complex network of many genes that together in some combination result in a synaptic peculiarity/defect that presents as one of the many phenotypes described under the autism umbrella and/or the possibility of an autoimmune condition.
I vote for genetic damage done to the parents as children by vaccinations being the cause. It's much more difficult to trace, would take twenty to fourty years minimum to see any trackable change and sounds fantastically plausable. Blaming the vaccinations that the parents were given for damaging their gonads allows the causationist to keep using the mercury argument for a while so they don't have to messily turn 180 degrees on that topic and can slowly phase it out so most people don't notice the change of message. Thus I hold that this year will begin a new campaign that the vaccines don't cause autism, they cause genetic damage in children who are given vaccinations and it is actually those genetic changes which are responsible for autism.
If any causationists read this and would like to use this theory I will be glad to discuss a royalty arrangement with you.
Additives in custard.
Squalene? But your body makes squalene to make steroids-like testosterone. Must need more Lupron to counter the squalene.
Rosie wasn't that great. According to Kirby she said this:
"According to Kirby she said"
I've heard enough right there. Kirby has proven himself completely untrustworthy.
I think David Kirby - sensing that his big money movie deal is going out the window - is getting increasingly strident. J.B. Handley's acting much the same way now, as he clearly realizes he's on the wrong side of the debate and is slowly backing off of his absolutist "mercury is the only cause of autism" position. I'm sure many of the other mercury militia zealots are seeing $$$ drift away from them as they figure out they've got little or no chance of winning their big drug company payoff.
As to the next "cause" of autism, well, I think it's going to be along the lines of the vaccine schedule in general. The number of vaccines given to kids has gone up, the number of kids with autism continues to rise - therefore, it's the "overly aggressive poorly defined" vaccine schedule that'll be blamed. And then mixed in with some tripe about compromised immune systems, blah, blah. It's vague enough that it'll keep the hardcores going for at least another decade.
I nominate omega-6 fatty acids.
Rosie O'Donnell came out against Texas' HPV vaccination program on The View today, calling it the "forced" injection of a vaccine (a "chemical," intoned in a disdainful way) that she claimed had not yet been properly tested and said "I smell a rat" in the relationship between Merck and the administration in Texas.
O'Donnell mentioned that HPV is linked to cervical cancer, saying "linked" in an emphasized and suspicious manner.
She also made it sound as if parents had no way to opt their child out of getting the vaccine, which they of course do.
O'Donnell also brought up thalidomide (which was not caused by a vaccine) to caution about inadequately tested medical treatments. When Joyce Behar mentioned the polio vaccine, O'Donnell then said that "a lot of people" think there's a causal relationship between vaccination and autism.
Ive caught one too many Creationists in a boldface lie (that they knew was a lie) to believe a word spoken by people like Kirby. Especially considering the difficulty a bystander would have in confirming/debunking that claim, and the odds of Rosie checking up on his essays, Kirbys pretty much free to say what he wants (unless someone here has Rosies personal e-mail).
*shrug* I was little when Rosies show was on the air-- I liked her! Plus shes always pissing off the religious right and that dumb blonde girl on The View.
Just to add a disclaimer, Rosie O'Donnell's people would probably say that she was not categorically "against" the vaccination program so much as she "raised concerns" about it. But the thrust of her message was very clear. Once it hits YouTube everyone will be able to see for themselves rather than taking my word on it.
Oh! And I bet the next big anti-vaxer claim is going to involve epigenetics. Vaccines stress your 'immune cells' and cause their epigenetic landscape to reset, causing all sorts of problems like autism, heart disease, diabetes, um, Im sure theyll think of 'more'.
*rolleyes*
Colugo:
Great. From your account, Rosie sounds as though she's well on her way into turning into an antivaxer. As for the HPV vaccine not having been "properly tested," that's a load of bullshit. It's one of the most extensively tested vaccines ever and shows virtually no adverse reactions. I wonder if she felt stung by the criticism of the Kirby-ites and felt that she had to reassert her
I guess I was too easy on her. On the other hand, she was still correct to have kept Kirby from speaking up and ruining the autism episode they did.
In any case, if anyone sees the segment on YouTube or comes across a transcript, so that we can see exactly what it was that Rosie said, assuming it is as bad as you say it is, there may have to be some Respectful Insolence directed Rosie's way.
I still cannot get over the idea that vaccines - which are tested in thousands of subjects with years of follow-up - are considered "poorly tested" while there's no problem pumping kids full of chelators or supplements with no conclusive safety record.
Great. From your account, Rosie sounds as though she's well on her way into turning into an antivaxer. As for the HPV vaccine not having been "properly tested," that's a load of bullshit. It's one of the most extensively tested vaccines ever and shows virtually no adverse reactions. I wonder if she felt stung by the criticism of the Kirby-ites...
That's what it sounds like.
I am so tired of public celebrities commenting on scientific subjects they know nothing about. The issue with the HPV vaccine is not at all about the safety of the shot, but about a combination of anti-vax paranoia and morality gone amok. (see Vaccine, Hepatitis B for a similar case study)
Orac wrote re: Rosie:
I suppose she can't be all bad.
Followed up by:
From your account, Rosie sounds as though she's well on her way into turning into an antivaxer. As for the HPV vaccine not having been "properly tested," that's a load of bullshit. It's one of the most extensively tested vaccines ever and shows virtually no adverse reactions.
All because of speaking out about a ridiculous vaccine for pre-teens. So typical Orac. How about that Hep B vaccine. That one is necessary too, right? Please. Good for Rosie. She's intelligent. She'll get it once given all the information. We know afterall that only the "dopes" are fully vaccinating their kids now. There was a study done about that... it must be true.
From Rosie O'Donnell's website, Feb 5th:
'Ask Ro'
http://www.rosie.com/blog/2007/02/05/ask-ro/
"Dottie writes:
Rosie,voluntary HPV shots, if proven safe, I feel would be so worth it. I had radical surgery and radiation and side effects from cervical cancer. No woman should go through that if a safe shot helps."
voluntary -"
further down the page:
"Rosie,
I live in Texas and have an 11 year old daughter. Should I make her get the vaccine?? I have many doubts and fears about it. What would you do for Chelsea?
Thanks!
i would not give it to chelsea"
Sue, is it possible for you to stop. being. stupid.
All because of speaking out about a ridiculous vaccine for pre-teens. So typical Orac. How about that Hep B vaccine. That one is necessary too, right? Please. Good for Rosie. She's intelligent. She'll get it once given all the information. We know afterall that only the "dopes" are fully vaccinating their kids now. There was a study done about that... it must be true.
I'm not sure how vaccinating for a cancer causing agent that can be transmitted without sexual contact is a bad thing. Or that vaccinating for a strain of hepatitis that can cause serious liver problems in adulthood is terrible. I guess you'd rather see people get sick and die from cancer and liver failure than take the 1 in 50,000 chance they might have more than a mild reaction to the vaccine.
And if you're talking about the study that says that most people who elect not to vaccinate are generally educated, that speaks are more about the education system in our country than it does about their collective intelligence or (pardon the irony) common sense.
Colugo said "'Ask Ro'
http://www.rosie.com/blog/2007/02/05/ask-ro/"
Is English a second language for her and her fans? Or is this just a place where grammar and spelling are optional?
She has also closed all the comments. Rats! I wanted to post this question: "Have you seen what Orac wrote about you?"
Sue, is it possible for you to stop. being. stupid.
Rot. In. Hell. Whiskers.
I'm not sure how vaccinating for a cancer causing agent that can be transmitted without sexual contact is a bad thing.
Of course you can't understand how that could be a bad thing, Whiskers. You. aren't. smart. enough. to. realize. that. there. are. side. effects. to. vaccines. It's not difficult. Smart people are getting it now.
And if you're talking about the study that says that most people who elect not to vaccinate are generally educated, THAT SPEAKS ARE MORE ABOUT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM in our country than it does about their collective intelligence or (pardon the irony) common sense.
Brilliant, Mouse. Thanks for proving the point.
I can't improve on the genetic/epigenetic/immune system predictions (the latter being most likely because it's already in the woostream [yes, I just made that up]), but what Kirby, et al. are experiencing is just the usual angst of anyone who's encountered media interest: they have their agenda, and you are useful to them only insofar as you match that agenda. Nothing sinister, but when they decide to tell a story, you become raw material, and you get what you can out of it.
Sue,
You have no clue, do you? Why don't you google "risk-benefit analysis" before prattling on about side effects?
Common,
It is a given that vaccines can and do have side effects. What support do you have for making the implication that intelligent people should not choose to vaccinate?
I must admit to being curious, given your virulent responses to the harmless member of the rodent family.
Christian,
To be fair, Sue is mad at me because I don't pretend to humor her absurd anti-vaccine views. And I'm not nice about it, either. Not that I care a whole heck of a lot, but still...
An international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
And through out all the tears and emoting, not one thing is learnt about Autism and Autistics, except that we're horrible. After years of researchers and Autistics themselves objecting to this, it's had no effect ergo we can assume that it's deliberate. Those who hold such theories about Autism not only don't know much about Autism but by their own admission don't want to know.
What is your nominee for the next "vaccines cause autism" hypothesis, circa 2007?
Ummm A child spent time with other children who have been vaccinated, even though they weren't vaccinated. Surely this would be a likely autism cause...
Okay, I admit it, I'm a grammar nerd.
This cracked me up.
I'm pretty sure that's not in question.
My Nomination: Big Pharma has been secretly adding dichloroacetate to our water supply.
As usual the Simpsons tacked this difficult issue years ago and as far as I'm concerned is the only source for satire that is necessary :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAIcPMx3aE
I agree that Simon Baron Cohen's thoughts on assortative mating, the "extreme male brain" and so on don't rule out there being an environmental cause for (some) autism cases but they certainly convince me a lot more that any of this vaccines stuff.
Amusing comic today about "The View":
http://www.gocomics.com/duplex/2007/02/06/
Far more people will listen Rosie O'Donnell on the HPV vaccine than they will Julie Gerberding.
A blog called 'Watching the View' reported on yesterday's discussion of Texas' HPV vaccination program:
http://www.watchingtheview.com/should-the-hpv-vaccine-be-mandatory/
"Elisabeth Hasselbeck expressed concern that the vaccine could make girls more promiscuous because they would not have to worry about getting HPV. ...
Rosie O'Donnell also disagreed with the idea of making the vaccines mandatory, but for different reasons. She is concerned about the fact that the vaccine has not been tested long-term on girls and the side effects are not fully known. She said that pharmaceutical companies do make mistakes and she certainly would not put her own daughter at risk without further testing of the vaccine. She also noted there is an apparent conflict of interest in that Mike Toomey, now a lobbyist for Merck, the only company who currently manufactures an HPV vaccine, is the former chief of staff of the governor of Texas."
latest 'Ask Ro' on O'Donnell's website
http://www.rosie.com/blog/2007/02/06/ask-ro/
"Keith writes:
R, I do not understand your opposition to the HPV vacc, HPV, affects 20 million people nationally, including one in four 15to24-yr olds, is the US's most common sexually transmitted disease, luv you!
mandatory
for 6th graders?"